Seattlpi.com reported yesterday that the King County Board of Health banned the use of odorless, water vapor-emitting electronic cigarettes in all public places covered under the state smoking ban (restaurants and bars, and within 25 feet from their entrances). The smoking ban was justified as an attempt to keep us safe from second-hand smoke. Where is the second-hand anything from an e-cigarette?
“Our thinking there is that e-cigarettes end up leading to more tobacco smoke in establishments,” says Board of Health member Bud Nicola, when I reached him on the phone.
This decision follows closely last week’s U.S. Court of Appeals ruling that e-cigarettes may be regulated by the FDA as tobacco products, but not outright banned as a drug, like the FDA had sought. E-cigarettes generally use a nicotine cartridge and a heating element to recreate the smoking experience without producing tar or smoke. In fact, what they emit is water vapor that dissipates almost instantly.
They look like cigarettes, but they’re not. There’s no proof of lung damage—not to the user or the person at the next table. And the fact that there’s nicotine inside is of no more consequence to the public’s health (only for the user, who has a right to consume nicotine) than the food on a restaurant’s menu or what a patron chooses to drink.
Asking for any evidence of the board’s stated reason of e-cigarettes “leading to more tobacco smoke in establishments”—establishments where tobacco smoking is and remains illegal—led to an interesting exchange with Nicola.
Him: “At this point, these are fairly new products.”
Me: “So you have no evidence that is causes more smoking inside establishments and this is just a guess?”
Him: “The evidence that we have is from the experience of our inspectors.”
Me: “So all you have is anecdotal evidence?”
Him: “Yes.”
Nicola described this anecdotal evidence as reporting from tobacco inspectors about visiting bars where confused staffers, struggling to distinguish between e-cigarette smokers and real smokers, have accidentally allowed real smoking.
When asked about the issue of e-cigarettes “eroding social norms” cited by Seattlepi.com as the impetus behind the ban, Nicola agree, “That is certainly part of what is being thought about.” It seems that the board wants to make the image of smoking cigarettes in public places an extinct or at least abnormal one. By their reasoning, allowing people to puff on e-cigs may renormalize the idea of public smoking in people’s minds.
So what if officials find evidence that e-cigarettes do not lead to more second-hand smoke, would they overturn this new regulation? “We would think about it,” says Nicola. So they wouldn’t overturn it? “We would take another look at it.”
In other words, a rule founded on anecdotal evidence without any numbers to support it is here to stay. (After all, how are they ever going to collect any evidence?)
But a court could also throw it out.
Dave Goerlitz, a spokesman for the Tobacco Vapor Electronic Cigarette Association (TVECA), was once the Winston man, then quit smoking cold turkey, and became a leading anti-smoking campaigner for years. Now he is convinced smokers have been thrown under the bus by an anti-smoking movement that is more concerned with winning dollars for the cessation medications produced by big pharma than actually helping people quit.
On this issue, Goerlitz tells The Stranger, “If [King County Board of Health] want to ban it, they can try, but they are going to have a fight on their hands.”
I hope he is right. King County officials may think they are doing us all a favor by keeping us safe from ourselves and telling private business owners how to operate their businesses. They are not.
Fuck them and their ban.
I’m fine with regulating, Nicotine is a drug and there is nothing wrong with making sure that these products contain what they say they contain. Basically the same reason we regulate aspirin. But banning them is indeed stupid.
Goerlitz is just an opportunist.
It’s nanny state shit like this that ends up working against the very thing they’re trying to prevent. All this will do will make more people side with smokers.
Idiots.
The irony is that these e-cigarettes are helping people kick the habit. Last summer I visited my hometown and all my friends were smoking them. They know they are getting too old to keep inhaling cancer sticks, and the electronic version is a safe alternative that still provides that good old nicotine kick.
Goddamn liberal nanny state.
Lemme get this straight: Smoking = bad, so let’s ban it. Smokers needing their fix can use an e-cigarette, which produces no harmful byproducts, or they can go to some other alternative, such as chewing tobacco. Which is bad for you, and has really unpleasant byproducts.
I’d rather see people smoking e-cigarettes than the drooling, spitting, gob-lipped snuff-dippers.
Oh, and someone tell King County that there’s an e-cigarette with an illuminated blue tip. That’d be a pretty good way to tell an e-cigarette from a real cigarette…
On first reading, it does, indeed, sound ridiculous: Saving us from water vapour! But I can see the point that if 10 people are “smoking” these fake cigarettes in a bar, then the waitstaff might not catch the 11th person who lights up a real cigarette, and I can see where that might turn into a real problem. I admit that I only smoked about 12 cigarettes in college, and so may not be the most understanding person on smoking issues, but why do people need these things in to first place? Don’t they do they same thing nicotine gum or patches do? It seems a little unfair to give over-worked restaurant and bar employees one more thing to worry about because you, the ex-smoker, have to have something to play with in your hands in order to enjoy an evening out. Why not take up knitting? I can tell you from personal experience (Ireland, circa 1985), knitting in pubs is much more of a conversation starter with the lads than smoking fake cigarettes…
This is proof that liberals can be fascists too.
Ugh. I mean really, ugh. I hope this gets struck down. It’s ridiculous.
@5, The smell tends to help ID the real ones.
I always get a kick out of the ad for these things where the guy starts puffing away on an airplane, and the flight attendant comes over and mimes asking him to put it out, then he mimes explaining that it’s not a real cigarette, and they both have a laugh. As-Seen-On-TV b-roll people live in such a bizarre version of reality.
Everytime I’ve used an ecig in a place where real smoking is banned, I’ve asked the staff/manager to get permission. Only once or twice was I told no. And if people seemed to be getting uncomfortable, I put it away. It’s about courtesy.
I’m curious how many instances of “anecdotal evidence” they have, because I’ve only seen one other ecig in public.
I kinda prefer inhaling second hand e-cigs to second hand cigarettes.
I was never a smoker, but I don’t get the cigarette crusade. You’d have to be completely unaware to not get that cigarettes are bad for you. Just like I’d have to be an idiot to know my Jameson is bad for me. I’d like to drink my couple glasses on a Friday night, thank you. Smokers should be able to enjoy their cigarettes. (I’d just prefer no smoke blown in my face, thanks!)
Dear King County,
As an ex-smoker I am troubled by the appearance and smell of Nicorette gum, which we used to kick the habit finally. People chewing gum is a theoretical trigger for me and others. Please consider banning public use of chewing gum-like products, or simply chewing in public. I personally may or may not trigger into a relapse of a health crisis over this, but you never know if someone else will.
Joe Szilagyi,
People Against Chewing In Public For Better King County Health Alliance (PACIPFBCHA)
Let’s see here:
Disbelief in observed incidences of smoking in establishments.
+
Belief in the spokesman of the Tobacco Vapor Electronic Cigarette Association.
=
Get a fucking job.
It’s strange how “there’s no proof of … damage” is a valid argument favoring e-cigs here, but not valid when it’s said about nudie scanners at airports.
If vapor is being emitted from a DEVICE, I’d rather not have it going into my lungs. Aren’t there key ingredients in that vapor? And how is that vapor produced anyway? It’s not using a reservoir of water, is it…
Uh, yeah….e-cigs don’t smell, I have friends that use them to quit smoking…they don’t smell and the vapor “smoke” isn’t heavy like real smoke.
Also, @5 as a smoker, I can say that part of the reason that makes it so hard to quit is the physical aspect of smoking – the inhaling of smoke and the mouth-touching and the perfect little object to hold in your fingers and gesticulate with….it’s practically as addictive as the nicotine!
Hey, look. Matt Luby is shilling for corporations. Oh, and by the way, he’s smarter than everybody else, and he’s having an angry day.
Same shit. Different pile.
i am adamently against this! i HATE cigarette smoke, and i LOVE the smoking ban, but all this is going to do is further piss off the smokers, who are already all pissy and whiny about the smoking ban, for NO reason. e-cigs are great. my argument has always been that YES you have the right to consume tobacco, but i shouldnt hav to put up with your second hand smoke in public- and with e-cigs i DON’T. win-win.
oh, and anyone with a sense of SMELL can detect a cigarette. just walk by the table- do you smell smoke or not??? all this does is enhance people’s argument that the ban is “nanny state bullshit” and GODDAMNIT my asthma wants the smoking ban to stay!
I’m all for regulations on things that are actually dangerous, but regulating things because “someone might think they are dangerous and then do something dangerous themselves” is overreaching. I hope they do have a lawsuit on their hands.
I am stunned that there aren’t a ton of irrational arguments supporting the ban of eCigs punctuated with ad hominems directed towards Luby.
Way to go Seattle. It renews my easiness with my less than 2 decades old lefty sensibilities I’ve developed. It’s great knowing this pub’s readership doesn’t blindly go full retard every time.
@ Urgutha Forka — If it makes more peope side with smokers, that would be like the one good thing to come out of this. Smokers get shit on all day long, even though they pay absurd excise taxes.
@ Rotten666 — Indeed.
@ Canuck — @More, I Say! already got this, but as an ex-smoker, a BIG part of the experience is the physical, hand-to-mouth delivery. I quit cold turkey myself, but I can see why this would be far preferable to gum.
@ nseattlite — Agreed. I haven’t seen a single one being used, either. The only evidence I have seen of them at all is the kiosk at Northgate Mall.
@ Joe — Favorite Joe Szilagyi comment ever!
@ trstr — Does “trstr” equal “truster?” Because if it does, it’s really accurate. Believe me, if these bureaucrats had even a SHRED of quantitative evidence to support their conclusions, they would have shared it. Anecdotal evidence is bullshit that would be laughed at in any university science department.
And it’s not like I blindly believe Goerlitz. My phone call with him was boring as tears, listening to him repeat stories about being the Winston Man for 20 minutes as I considered ways to bow out politely.
@ JPR — According to most of the stuff I saw, there are four ingredients in an e-cig: propylene glycol, glycerol, nicotine, and (optionally) flavoring. Compare this to the more than 4,000 chemicals contained in a real cigarette.
@ dreadpirate — Smelling? But this is too hard for the bureaucrats!
There is no proof that diving off of space stations without a spacesuit into the upper atmosphere is hazardous to your health either.
But both are.
Very very very bad.
Stop smoking.
OK, dad. I’m sorry I disappointed you. 🙁
Working in the cancer field, I have to say that people don’t know what exactly is being emitted because these products have not been submitted to any kind of scientific research. It’s likely that they contain chemicals – it’s the chemicals in a cigarette that are harmful. E-cigarettes are NOT approved as a nicotine replacement product and their benefit as such has not been proven. Essentially, trusting those who market these products for money is just like trusting any quack who makes huge promises without anything to back it up. There are safe ways to quit and for now, this doesn’t appear to be one of them.
I hate to say it, but I’m in agreement with Scab Luby’s Libertarian Bullshit Parade. This time at least.
#5:
“But I can see the point that if 10 people are “smoking” these fake cigarettes in a bar, then the waitstaff might not catch the 11th person who lights up a real cigarette”
Well…I can see that you are clearly an idiot.
I’m going to start bringing candy cigarettes to bars. See if a group of cigarette smokers starts gathering around me to light up or something.
“If you simulate fellatio in here you’re going to get jizzum everywhere!”
I for one, have not worked out how smoking bans are good for asthmatics? Gurgling like a golfish at the dinner table was one of my experiences after gobfuls of those “addicted to perfumes and aftershaves” wanted to share all their chemicals, very selfish dontcha think. I am a smoker but I have not used an inhaler for over 20 years although I am pretty sure I could have been given repeat prescriptions and carried on using them.
Strange how people have been brainwashed though when something looks to be dangerous but isn’t, this is quite an interesting site – http://www.ourlittleplace.com/perfume.ht…
Wow! Our city is a progressive area of the country! There are many establishments that have signed up, jumped over each other, to be ‘e-cig friendly’. You can go in, sit, have a meal, and enjoy a few minutes of vaping…. with the owners blessing! We also have a ‘one stop e-cig shop’ to help supply folks with parts and products for every kind of e-cig out there!
I’m glad I live here!
Wow! Our city is a progressive area of the country! There are many establishments that have signed up, jumped over each other, to be ‘e-cig friendly’. You can go in, sit, have a meal, and enjoy a few minutes of vaping…. with the owners blessing! We also have a ‘one stop e-cig shop’ to help supply folks with parts and products for every kind of e-cig out there!
I’m glad I live here!
Dear King County,
While you’re banning chewing gum for Joe Szilagyi and his alliance I respectfully request the you also ban all use of Bandaids anywhere smoking is banned. Our group of ex-smokers are triggered to lighting up at the mere sight of anything that remotely looks like a nicotine patch.
I’ve even heard from some of my fellow members that they couldn’t resist lighting up when they were forced to sit beside someone with their pinky finger bandaged. At an inopportune moment, this could lead to a child witnessing this vile act and immediately lead them to a life of smoking, the leading cause of preventable disease and death other than obesity of course.
My other alliance will address the need to ban the obese in a later request for a special meeting by the King County BOH. We don’t want fat people to become roll models for our youth.
J Rothenberger, President PABLUM
People Against Bandaid’s Luring Unmanageable Manifestations