The concept of treating one’s spouse with love, honor, and respect has taken a beating of late, so it’s truly a thrill to read of the deaths of Sir Edward Downes, 85, and his wife, Joan, 74. The much-honored British orchestra conductor put his eternal mark on “til death do us part” by flying to Switzerland last week to take his own life at the side of his cancer-ravaged wife.
Unlike newly enlightened Washington State, Britain’s archaic no-assisted-suicide laws have resulted in a bizarre travel industry as 120 or so dying citizens have left the country in search of dignified deaths. This case has raised the tension level over that misbegotten system (particularly since Sir Downes wasn’t terminally ill), but let’s leave that debate for another day. The loveliness of this story is the best encapsulated in this first-hand report of their deaths:
On Friday, the children said, they watched, weeping, as their parents drank “a small quantity of clear liquid” before lying down on adjacent beds, holding hands.
“Within a couple of minutes they were asleep, and died within 10 minutes,” Caractacus Downes, the couple’s 41-year-old son, said in the interview after his return to Britain. “They wanted to be next to each other when they died.” He added, “It is a very civilized way to end your life, and I don’t understand why the legal position in this country doesn’t allow it.”
The couple had been married 54 years.
Incidentally, Caractacus may be the best name ever; especially as I’m assuming he was named for the wacky automobile inventor in Ian Fleming’s children’s classic, “Chitty Chitty Bang Bang” (yes, that Ian Fleming). The Downeses named their daughter Boudicca—not quite as much fun for the tongue as Caractacus, but still, the name of a Celtic warrior queen who led a bloody revolt against the wretched Romans.
46:
I don’t get your comment, how does one torture a non-living thing? One can discuss it’s application, translation, interpretation, and cultural reference, as well as debate it, but one can’t torture it. Matt from Denver @ 21, asked my opinion. You are entitled to your own opinion. I have grace for your opinion, it is as valid as mine. Feel free to share it.
51
see #3
tor·ture (tôrchr)
verb.
1. To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
2. To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
3. To twist or turn abnormally; distort: (torture a rule to make it fit a case.)
51
see #3
tor·ture (tôrchr)
verb.
1. To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
2. To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
3. To twist or turn abnormally; distort: (torture a rule to make it fit a case.)
see #10 (#8 and #9 are also nice)
tor⋅ture [tawr-cher] verb, -tured, -tur⋅ing.
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We’ll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).
#49 – you missed the point.
Yes, the terminally ill did take the su8cide route. Their boy friends, lovers, close friends did not.
The grief and terror and loss in fact propelled many into action.
see #3
tor·ture
Etymology:
Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torqu?re to twist;
Date: 1540
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument
@51 I would not say you are torturing the book, but I think your comment does point out the fundamental problem with the Bible. That is that ti can be used to support just about any position whatsoever. If your liberal the book is liberal, if you want to be able to kill your enemies it can tell you that, if you think that divorce is completely wrong you can get that out of it to.
Its no different from a scientific theory that explains all possibilities and cannot be falsified. It does nothing really all that useful except for offer a justification for ones beleifs.
53/46:
I see. To discuss or debate the Bible, is to torture it. I believe we were given a brain, to think, question, and to gain understanding. I can recognize that different interpretations/ translations exist, and am not offended or threatened by them. I think it is better to debate difference, and gain understanding, than to assume that I have full understanding.
You have accused me of destorting of which of the 18 or so verses, or is it that the denomination I was raised in doesn’t believe that suicide renders one’s salvation invalid?
I hope you are aware that your personal interpretation of the Bible, is not the only interpretation out there.
You’re welcome to share your own opinion, interpretation, translation, etc.
I’m out of here.
What’s interesting is that the first article I read on this subject- I forget from where- didn’t mention the wife at all, just him. It was focused on Downes being old, blind, and nearly deaf, and a throwaway of his wife joining him at the clinic without any mention of her condition. Which I thought was creepy.
Learning the whole situation makes it a lot different. They both had their reasons. Terminal illness on one hand, being a conductor unable to hear or see (and without your partner of 54 years) on the other.
51
You are free to believe that homosexuality is peachy keen.
You are free to believe that suicide is peachy keen.
However when you pick and choose passages from the Bible and cherry-pick translations and torture the message of the Bible to make it agree with your world view you compound your error.
It is the intellectual version of the Golden Calf.
“Grandpa, suicide is a sin! God only wants us to die after years of pain and reduced mobility!”
-Marge Simpson
I wonder how many of you who can’t understand this man’s decision are married and feel exactly like your spouse is an inseparable part of yourself? Also I’m curious how many think that they’re living forever?
I would absolutely make the same choice as Sir Edward.
Giffy @ 57,
Your point is valid. That’s why I can only offer my opinion, from my perspective, study, and life.
Kim, thank you for your thoughts. I always appreciate those who can support their case with examples. (That’s a hint to the troll @ 60.)
63 here’s a hint, matt; and an example
LEVITICUS
CHAPTER 18
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
The Caananites had defiled themselves with rampant immorality, including homosexuality and bestiality. God commanded Joshua to destroy them utterly, every living thing, even children and animals.
(not unlike Sodom)
How do you read this, kim?
her’s another hint and example, matt
LEVITICUS
CHAPTER 20
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
this one is a little hazy.
kim, what do you think God wanted to be done with men who engaged in homosexual behavior?
Life and Death have mainly the value that the individual places on them. You can see this tragically, if you wish, but it doesn’t really matter now. Because they are both dead. Perhaps, he did not wish to go on living without her, or to know what it would feel like to get over his grief. Perhaps he lived a long, full, beautiful, amazing life and was ready for it to be over.
I think that the most beautiful part is that two adults were able to decide what to do with their own lives and bodies.
Life has more value to you than death because you are not done with it. He was. And he got to choose how he died.
I think that’s humane and beautiful.
@64
Thou shalt not suffer a douchebag to belabor a red herring.
A few fucking quotes relevant to this topic doesn’t require you to change the topic entirely to a Bible-bashing seminar.
This is the Slog. You’re preaching to the goddamn choir when you whine about the Bible here.
Go masturbate to Youth Pastor Watch articles.
Even though I believe that life can only be given and taken away by God, I would have a difficult time criticizing what these people did. Having to watch your loved one in pain day after day, agonizing, suffer without any hope of getting better is something horrendous, I could see how someone who loves their partner, sees them in pain and cannot fathom living without them would make this decision. And having their children present, I dunno, takes away some of the morbidity from it and makes it seem more compassionate and a family decision.
#47: Yes, that is what I mean…
#42: An elderly, sane, intelligent, adult man making rational, well thought out decisions about his life/body isn’t hurting anyone, (but himself, of course, if he chooses suicide), much like a woman making decisions about her reproductive system. You might not care for the decision they choose, but you should respect their right to MAKE their own cognitive decisions. An immature teenager choosing suicide or a crackhead/junkie that is a drain on society/the healthcare system and potentially a violent criminal are not comparable…
Quoting from the bible, or any “holy” book is the last resort of the lazy, the unintelligent and the intolerant…”My position is right because the bible tells me so!”
Miss Van Buttskirt errs in attributing the son’s name to the character from Fleming’s Shitty Shitty Bang Bang.
‘Caractacus’ is an 1898 cantata for soprano, tenor, baritone, and bass soli, chorus and orchestra; the music was composed by Edward Elgar and the lyrics by H.A.Acworth.
It was Joan’s favorite piece and she often sang it to the children as a lullaby.
@69, Like I said I respect their right to make the choice. I never said otherwise. I just don’t think it was a good choice or a lovely choice. I would say the same thing about a person who has kids they cannot support or who say aborted a fetus at 8 months because they changed their mind(not that this happens). I don’t favor laws restricting peoples right to have kids or abortions in anyway, but that does not mean I can’t have an opinion on their behavior.
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”
Maybe this is addressed to women, ergo heterosexuality is an abomination. Hmmmm….
For me, the issue isn’t about him choosing to kill himself it’s about his wife wanting (presumably) to kill himself with her. If I was the one who was terminally ill I think it would be awfully selfish of me to want my wife to off herself too. Of course what makes it even more difficult is the the fact that he was going deaf and blind etc. but this is getting really close to that slippery slope.
@ 69 “Quoting from the bible, or any “holy” book is the last resort of the lazy, the unintelligent and the intolerant…”My position is right because the bible tells me so!”
Perhaps it is wrong to use one’s holy scrolls, book, etc as “for the Bible told me so”, but Kim does not strike me as that sort of person. She seems very well-thought-out in her opinions. I know it’s not “cool” to be Christian, but let’s not throw the baby out w/ the bathwater. I know some very decent Christian people. *shrug*
Back to the topic of the post..I can’t decide if this is more lovely, or more creepy. My knee-jerk reaction was: damn that’s wrong. But add in the info that his own health was deteriorating too..I dunno what I’d do. Being w/ someone for 54 years? I always gets claustrophobic around FIVE years. 😉
I do think there should be an assisted-suicide law in place. There should be a point at which suffering is so great, that someone can legally, painlessly, end their life instead. It should be like getting a sex change operation, in that you’d have to jump through the hoops of all kinds of counseling, exhaust other options, etc. Some poster above pointed out that it’d remove strain from the medical system – also true.
@73 and others …
It amazes me that people that just assume that this is what “she” alone wanted. Where, anywhere, does it state that? It says that they talked about it together, that they both decided to do it together.
Again, you cannot fathom wanting to die at 84 because you are not in his position. Not everyone is so afraid of death. Some people have lived their lives to the fullest and realize that they are done. It’s like continuing to scrape the bottom of an empty cereal bowl. You’ve already eaten all your cereal and the sound that the spoon makes on the bowl is awful, but someone told you that you had to keep scraping at it because it makes them feel better about the world to know that you’re doing it.
@75
And it amazes me that people don’t read for comprehension. Where, anywhere, do I state that “she” “alone” made the decision? As a matter of fact I say the exact opposite in the first sentence. Let me re-post it:
“For me, the issue isn’t about HIM CHOOSING to kill himself it’s about his wife wanting (presumably) to kill himself with her.”
My point being that if I was in that situation I would not want my wife to kill herself if it wasn’t necessary b/c her life (undoubtedly) means a lot to more people than just me (i.e. children and especially grandchildren). As someone else pointed out I would do everything in my power to talk her out of it b/c anything less, in and of itself, would be selfish on my part. I then go on to say that the situation is complicated by the fact that he was not top notch physically even if he wasn’t terminal.
#75
You are so young and so full of shit.
In my family people live to be very old, closing on 100 for most. I have never heard a single elder, male or female put out the blather that you just spouted.
Get a clue, old, even very old age is not an endless ordeal. You are really stupid. Decreased ease of many physical things, but, tons of vibrant and exciting times with books, movies, poetry, sewing, cooking, watching birds, politics, and enjoying the kids around you.
Get a clue, assuming the total non collapse of your mental and physical health – old and older age is a process, not understood at all by the young.
As one elder poet said – “I see and hear the birds every day, is that not enough for you?”
A great uncle I had while growing up bragged at every family gathering that he was horny into his 90ies…. he died at 102.
@76 Ah, I do stand corrected at my misinterpretation of your comment.
However, their children were in their 40s and perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Would you not also consider it selfish of the wife to force him to live on as he loses his site, his hearing (which I imagine is heartbreaking considering he was a former conductor and lover of music), basically deteriorating placing the obligation then on his grown children to now care for him?
And @75
I said more than once that YOU ARE NOT IN HIS POSITION, not that ALL OLD PEOPLE SHOULD JUST DECIDE TO END THEIR LIVES.
I said that this particular human being decided that he was done and that he should not be forced to live on because it makes you feel better about the world.
I too have had people old and dear die, not by suicide, but from disease and say that they were happy and fulfilled by their lives and that it was time to go.
All that I was saying that it is not OUR place to lay our VALUE of life and death on this person.
I don’t want to die, not yet, and no, I cannot imagine the time when I would feel fulfilled enough with MY life to be okay with dying, but then again, I am not there yet, and that is all that I am saying.
What are you so pissed about anyway? Because I said that this one particular person decided that it was time for them to die?
This made me cry today.
@ 75
“However, their children were in their 40s and perfectly capable of taking care of themselves.”
Which is why I made it a point to specify the grandchildren who feasibly could be as young as 4 or 5. If my wife’s grandmother had killed herself when her husband died it would have deprived my wife of the primary source of joy throughout her childhood.
“Would you not also consider it selfish of the wife to force him to live on as he loses his site, his hearing (which I imagine is heartbreaking considering he was a former conductor and lover of music), basically deteriorating placing the obligation then on his grown children to now care for him?”
First of all I didn’t say anything about forcing anyone to do anything. There’s a difference between forcing him to live (which she couldn’t do anyway) and encouraging him to live. Second of all, nope. I’m a musician, composer and conductor and so I know better than most what he might be going through but this is something that all people have to deal with when they get older. Beethoven went deaf much younger and flirted with suicide but backed out. This is something that every musician has to deal with later in life. Actually it’s something that everyone has to deal with later in life; i.e. you wont be able to do the things when you’re older that brought you joy when you’re younger. It’s still his choice as to whether or not he kills himself but what’s at issue is whether or not the situation should be celebrated. As to that issue; I don’t know, in some ways yes and in some ways no.
@80 Okay, I see where you’re coming from. That makes sense.
And oops … the second half of my comment @78 was actually meant for @77 not @75 … silly me!
“He hates him much that would upon the rack of this tough world stretch him longer.”
Co-dependence isn’t healthy, and neither is this idea.
Several people have mentioned Romeo and Juliet and the Bible as their guiding stories to understanding the behavior of the husband in what they view as a tragedy, but there is another story, an ancient greek myth, in which an old couple (who have shown outstanding generosity) are granted a single wish by Apollo, and they make the choice of asking that when they die they will die at the same moment together. It is viewed as, and explained as, “the greatest wish of old age” in the story, and suggests the moral way would be to do as this couple has done. In the final moments of the story (after dedicating their remaining years to the upkeep of a temple for Apollo) the old couple are being granted their wish, and feel that death is coming, so they reach out and hold one another’s hands. As they die they are transformed into two intertwined trees, the Linden and the Oak (if I remember correctly) forming the entrance to Apollo’s temple.
Heartfelt @ 85,
I am familiar with the story. I thought about it when I heard the news.
My grandparents have an agreement along these lines. When one of them is terminally ill, they plan to commit suicide together.
They’ve been together for over 60 years, and don’t want to face life without each other. I get it. And should I end up spending 60 years of my life with somebody, I’m likely to feel similarly, I think.
That’s the thing, isn’t it…people who are single, like me, are on this great search…but the eventual reward for finding our perfect match is to be ripped to shreds someday when they die. This story seems absolutely reasonable to me. I don’t fear death, but I do fear pain.
@77 Some people who live long age well and some really do not. How people age and how long they live is an undefinable combination of how they live and what they wound up w/ in the genetic crap shoot. Sounds like your family did well in the genetic crap shoot. Good for you.
Of course age is not an illness and shouldn’t be pathologized. That said, some people deteriorate more than others as they age (i.e. arthritis, alzheimer’s disease, etc.). Some people run marathons at 80 while others can barely walk at 50 from the pain of arthritis. It’s not possible for everyone to know what they’re going to be like when they’re elderly.