Some very scary shit is going down in Texas. Scarier than usual. “Repent Amarillo” is a rabid group of religious nuts—homegrown religious extremists of the conservative Christian variety—and they’re not just going after the gays.
At first, the swinger community was mystified by the attention. On the 60-some hours of surveillance footage the Meads have, a swinger can be heard telling a Repent member that the swingers haven’t done anything to bother them.“You’re going to hell, and it bothers me,” Grisham responds. “What bothers me is you’re going to hell.”
Perhaps the most insidious tactic Repent uses is trying to destroy the reputation of the swingers. In Amarillo, people can be ostracized over a whiff of impropriety. On one tape, Grisham directs followers to get the license-plate numbers in the Route 66 parking lot. “A new couple can be here three or four hours,” says Mac. “Whenever they leave, the Repent Amarillo group will call them by first and last name, know where they live, know where they work, just within a very few hours.”
Randall Sammons says he was fired from his job of 13 years in August after his boss learned Sammons was a swinger from another employee, a Repent member. He believes he’s now as good as blacklisted in Amarillo. “I’m screwed at finding a job,” Sammons says. Russell Grisham, David’s 20-year-old son who has a conviction on his record for hacking the computer system at his high school, has posted the names, photos and workplaces of swingers on the Internet, including one man whose wife works for a school district. (“Family-wise, it will kill both of us,” the man says.) In at least two instances, Repent members called swingers’ employers.
Having successfully harassed a local and very discreet group for heterosexual swingers out of existence, Repent Amarillo’s “warriors” are now planning to go after…
1. Gay pride events.
2. Earth worship events such as “Earth Day”
3. Pro-abortion events or places such as Planned Parenthood
4. Breast cancer events such as “Race for the Cure” to illuminate the link between abortion and breast cancer.
5. Opening day of public schools to reach out to students.
6. Spring break events.
7. Demonically based concerts.
8. Halloween events.
9. Other events that may arise that the ministry feels called to confront.
They’re also going after churches they believe to be insufficiently Christian (Episcopalians, Christian Scientists, Unitarians), palm readers, people who practice witchcraft, and anything and everything that might create a “demonic stronghold” in Amarillo. And they’re not just threatening to pray for people: Repent Amarillo’s “actions” include prayer, according to Repent Amarillo’s website, “but [also] may involve more aggressive use of soldiers and prayer warriors.” Check out the group’s locked-and-loaded website. (Please note: Repent Amarillo’s website “is not designed for non-Christians,” or the wrong kinds of Christians, so don’t look long lest you defile the group’s website with your eyes and turn into a pillar of salt.)
Hello? Moderate and liberal Christians? In Texas and elsewhere? Now might be a good time to speak the fuck up. Maybe you could spit out a few press releases, organize a massive, anti-Phelps-style counter-protest, and come to the defense of the people and churches and artists and businesses being menaced by your co-religionists. This calls for something above and beyond mewling in comments threads on liberal blogs about how “we’re not all like that.” Don’t tell us, tell them.
The very least you can do is to join this Facebook group. More info and links at How To Have Sex In Texas.
I support the actions of Repent Amarillo, because it does so much to damage the reputation of Christianity. We don’t need less of these idiots. We need more of them. Embarrassments that will drive people away from religion, when they see what religion can (and often does) lead to. Secular organizations should loudly and aggressively challenge RA, to demonstrate that we’re not only not going to put up with that shit, but also that we’re better than the milquetoast Christians who don’t want to stand up to them because they’re afraid of rocking the boat.
If they’re identifying people through their license plates, they’re probably violating state laws, and should be investigated. That’s not supposed to be accessible to the public, and these folks aren’t entitled to know it.
re: #95, so what you’re saying is that they’re like the Phelps Klan, but more violent and with access to nuclear materials.
103, they probably have a member working for the DMV and illegally taking information of those car owners. Remember, “christians” believe they’re above the law.
Oops. Disregard my previous comment. Site’s back up as of this morning. Love the warfare map (http://www.repentamarillo.com/map.php), it’s a quick-and-handy guide to the nightlife in case you find yourself in Amarillo.
I printed it off for next time I’m Texas. I can’t wait to check out the Peace Farm (“pagan peace movement headquarters”) and Wat Lao Buddharam (“false god”) and, if I have time, the Music Box (“sells witchcraft items and drug paraphenalia [sic]”). For more reasonable Christians, it also provides a handy reference to the “Compromised Church’s (also [sic])”.
I have a little unease over “renounce these wackos or I’ll think you’re one of them.”
But at the same time, I guess my response to that is this:
From the outside, you look like them. You use their rhetoric, you speak their language, you carry the same symbols. It’s not my responsibility to clear your name and investigate the differences between you so that I can correctly categorize the eleventy different varieties of Christian. It’s not that I have some *right* to think all Christians are the same. It’s just that people are *going* to, no matter how much it bothers you.
You can’t stop people from looking at the common symbols, language, and culture, and making an association. And if that association bothers you, then make it as clear as you can how different you are from them, because you can bet your bippy the Repent Amarillo folks are not going to; your reputation is useful to them as cover. They have a vested interest in being considered mainstream Christians, in insinuating that the Bible really teaches and Christians really believe what they say. Repudiate them for USING you, if for no other reason. They’re not just damaging your reputation, they’re stealing it for their own uses.
I don’t get all high-dudgeon when someone can’t tell whether I’m a Wiccan, a Heathen, a plain old pagan, or a Satanist, and when someone does something really stupid in the name of witchcraft I step up and say, “Hey, I’m a witch and that was really stupid, K?” When someone says, “I had a bad experience with a pagan,” I say, “I’m really sorry. That person was acting wrong.”
It may not be my job to make sure everyone understands I’m not ‘one of those pagans’, but it’s certainly a smart decision if I want to be taken seriously and if I want others of my faith to be.
Sigh. Things like this make me want to pack up all my crap and move to another state. Not all of Texas is whacko like Amarillo, but there’s enough to make me cringe at times.
best idea yet…@judT #67
I say the good people of Amarillo ought to ALL spend time at the places these assholes despise. Park their cars at the nearest coffee house, gay bar, abortion clinic, swingers club, bar (in general), wtf ever.
easiest way for the townspeople to take back their town. If they want it that is, and if any of the persecuted folks there have any true friends.
@100, 101
that’s cute that you’re having a little conversation with yourself. I do that too only not on blogs. also, I think it’s pretty funny how you’re grasping at straws in this thread just to stay contrary when you know deep down inside what these people are doing is repulsive and un-American. would it kill you to just admit it?
@110:
The bigger deal might be more their sheer stupidity than their repulsive un-Americanism. I mean, I’ve looked at their website and I think that mostly these guys are getting off on playing religious crusader, and unfortunately, might be tempted into playing religious crusader with real guns n’ ammo.
I can’t tell if they’re going for the Al-Qaeda type approach as much as they’re just pretending to be cool while looking like stupid children to everyone else. At least, that’s what I hope they’re doing.
repulsive comes in many flavors
there is no difference in the over the line behavior of these nuts and the over the line behavior of homosexuals who harass people for having opinions different from them.
they both claim absolute moral authority.
they both behave as if any tactic is justified against their enemies.
they both seek to get those they disapprove of fired and blacklisted.
self righteous hateful bigotry comes in many flavors.
Alleged (@112)
Who are these ‘homosexuals who harass people for having opinions different from them’? What organization in the LGBTQ community behaves in the slightest like the Repent Amarillo group, which associates itself with the terrorist, yes terrorist, group Army of God?
Your post has an quite a sinister cadence to it, and its tone makes me think that you yourself are coming from a position of ‘self righteous hateful bigotry’ (as you put it) doubtless backed by some lines of Leviticus.
I don’t care what those nutbags call themselves.
I could call myself Pocahontas, but that wouldn’t make me a Native American princess. Similarly, these assholes can call themselves Christians, speak the incantations, and wave around books and symbols all they want. That doesn’t make anybody Christian.
If they’re busy sowing discord, misery, strife and confusion, they’re working for the forces of darkness (the devil/beelzebub/cthulhu/satan/whatever.) These are Satan’s henchmen, no more, no less.
.
@112, 113:
Yeah, as far as I know, no one has ever been killed for being a homophobe. Many, many people have been killed for having the audacity to be born gay.
And unlike being a homophobe, you have no control over whether or not you’re gay.
So it’s not “bigotry” to discriminate against a homophobe, though I’m not sure I’d do it unless their personal homophobia specifically got in the way of the job (ie. I run a gay-friendly bar and I’m hiring bartenders).
Ugh…112, The difference is that religious lunatics have been literally killing queers for the last couple thousand years and continue to preach that we should be put to death (thanks “miss Beverly Hills).
Queer rights are not a philosophical debate open to discussion, there is no grey area. Saying that no you cannot disenfranchise me or put me to death because you think I’m a sinner does not make me a self righteous hateful bigot claiming absolute moral authority.
@116:
Well I think they’re a debate open to discussion, but there’s one side of that debate that’s, in my opinion, clearly wrong. (Hint: It’s the hateful bigot side.)
As to your other comments, you’re forgetting that there was the Homophobe Genocide of 1987… oh wait, there wasn’t.
116
Is homosexual marriage a queer right?
Is homosexual marriage open to discussion?
Is there any grey area?
Should people who donated to Prop 8 be hounded from their jobs and blacklisted?
Are they lunatics?
YOU set the terms of the debate?
YOU decide what is open to discussion?
YOU decide what is a grey area?
People who disagree with YOU are lunatics…
funny- that sounds like a self righteous hateful bigot claiming absolute moral authority.
Is Obama a lunatic?
Is Elton John a homophobic bigot?
Should they be fired for not supporting homosexual marriage?
The fact is that a majority of people in each and every state that has voted oppose homosexual marriage.
You can call them all homophobic bigot hater lunatics if you wish,
you can proclaim that there is no room for discussion,
you can declare that there is no grey area-
and you can be a self righteous hateful bigot claiming absolute moral authority.
115
It’s not “bigotry” to discriminate against someone who disagrees with me.
They deserve to be discriminated against.
And I will discriminate against them.
But I am not a bigot…
113
Signed a R-71 petition?
Let’s publisize that fact.
Post youir address.
Phone number.
Let’s out you to your neighbors.
Confront you.
Make sure your employeer knows.
Let’s try to destroy the reputation of the people who signed the petition…
“Protests following the passage of California’s Proposition 8, which defined marriage as between one man and one woman, made news headlines, but the Pacific Justice Institute reports a growing number of cases where those opposed to the ballot measure have taken out their anger more quietly: by harassing – and even firing – employees who voted for it.
PJI, a non-profit legal defense organization, is representing a San Francisco woman who was fired for voting for Proposition 8, but whose name remains confidential to protect her privacy and legal case.
“Californians have been shocked by the aggressiveness of radical homosexual activists who have ousted several individuals from their jobs and livelihoods based solely on their support for traditional marriage,” states Brad Dacus, president of PJI, on the group’s website. “These tactics of fear and intimidation in retaliation for supporting a lawful ballot measure are completely unacceptable.”
PJI is also advising several others seeking settlements after they too were fired for supporting Proposition 8.
“Unfortunately, this is far from an isolated case,”
‘Kevin Snider, chief counsel for PJI, told WND of a worker at a financial company who was asked before the November election how he would vote on the issue of homosexual marriage. The employee gave an evasive answer. Following the election, the employee was asked repeatedly how he voted.
When it was learned the employee had voted in favor of Proposition 8, he was written up for discrimination, Snider reports, and fired within a couple of days.
WND reported earlier of a pair of radio hosts who were fired because they questioned on air a local politician’s call to boycott businesses that supported Prop. 8.
“I voiced my opinion,” radio host Marshall Gilbert told WND. “I voted yes on Prop. 8, and I was fired over that.”
While some employees have been fired outright, others have been harassed by fellow workers or risk losing their jobs because of protesters hounding their companies.
The Los Angeles Times reported the story of El Coyote, a coffee shop that became a target of protest after the manager’s name was put on a blacklist for giving $100 to support Proposition 8. Mobs of protesters harassed El Coyote’s customers until police in riot gear settled the crowd.
The once-thriving business, and now El Coyote’s 89 employees, some of them openly homosexual, have had their hours cut and face layoffs.
Advocates for homosexual marriage have even set up a website, AntiGayBlacklist.com, which lists hundreds of California residents, churches and businesses that donated money to the Proposition 8 campaign.
“I think there’s certain types of jobs where there’s more hostility than other places,” Snider told WND. “I’ve had several college professors report harassment by their colleagues.”
In one instance, Snider said, a professor took copies of threatening emails from his colleagues over his support of Prop. 8 to the lawyers in the college’s human resources department. The professor alleged the emails clearly constituted hate speech, but his appeal was ignored.
Snider also told WND of Proposition 8 supporters who have suffered vandalism, physical violence and even attacks against family pets.
One report included a University of California student whose car was vandalized and who was beaten over her support of Prop. 8.
“We have fielded numerous requests for help related to the aftermath of Prop. 8, including alarming instances of intimidation,” attorney Karen Milam, full-time director of PJI’s Southern California office, commented on the organization’s website. “We will continue to reach out to Prop. 8 supporters to ensure that threats and bullying do not undermine the democratic process.”
After donating to California’s Proposition 8 campaign last year, Charles LiMandri began receiving some unexpected correspondence.
“I got about two dozen e-mails and hate phone calls,” said Mr. LiMandri, who lives in San Diego. “They were calling me Nazi, homophobe, bigot. I tried to engage people once or twice – I said that Proposition 8 had nothing to do with being bigoted, it was about preserving marriage – but people don’t want to engage on the issue.”
As a lawyer, however, Mr. LiMandri knew what to do with the e-mails.
“I collected them and turned them in to the lawsuit,” he said.
Those e-mails are now among hundreds of exhibits in a landmark case challenging California’s campaign-finance reporting rules, which require the release of the names, addresses and employers of those who contribute $100 or more to ballot-measure committees.
The lawsuit argues that those who contribute to traditional-marriage initiatives should be exempt from having their names disclosed, citing the widespread harassment and intimidation of donors to the Proposition 8 campaign.
Intimidation tactics range from letters and e-mails to death threats.
Leading the effort is Californians Against Hate – whose Web site lists the names of people and organizations contributing to the Proposition 8 campaign. The list also gives addresses, phone numbers and Web site addresses.
The group also has organized a series of boycotts targeting donors.
Several Web sites use online maps to pinpoint the home or office locations of all known Proposition 8 donors.
Fred Karger, who launched Californians Against Hate in July, acknowledged that intimidation is part of the political strategy.
“One of my goals was to make it socially unacceptable to make donations ,” Mr. Karger said. “I want them to think twice before writing that check.”
Call me stupid, but why is it snowing on their website? Does it snow in Amarillo? Or is there some symbolism that I’m missing. Fallout maybe?
Cheesehead
“Repent Amarillo’s “actions” include prayer, according to Repent Amarillo’s website, “but [also] may involve more aggressive use of soldiers and prayer warriors.”
“We plan to civilly confront the perverts and discuss their behavior” the website states.
125
Leading the effort is Amarilloans Against Perversion – whose Web site lists the names of people and organizations contributing to perversion in Amarillo. The list also gives addresses, phone numbers and Web site addresses.
The group also has organized a series of boycotts targeting perverts.
Several Web sites use online maps to pinpoint the home or office locations of all known perverts.
Grisham, who launched Amarilloans Against Perversion, acknowledged that intimidation is part of the political strategy.
“One of my goals was to make it socially unacceptable to be a pervert ,” Grisham said. “I want them to think twice before acting perverted….”
113
“….quite a sinister cadence to it”
what can I say?
I am a bad bad man…
I don’t usually like to cite to Ayn Rand but an attitude like Dagney Taggert’s, when she’s confronted about her sex life is called for in situations like this. Shame requires two people. Granted, it won’t help with the whole people getting fired thing, but I think standing up to them would do wonders.
I didn’t think Taliban when I read this. Instead this came to mind:
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me
-Martin Niemöller
Sounds like a job for Janet Reno.
The “christian soldier” theme is a sad misunderstanding of christian teaching that requires its followers to ignore the New Testament teachings of tolerance, kindness, and mercy that Jesus preached. The New Testament is what makes the christian religion “christian” (i.e. followers of Jesus Christ). It was Jesus message of forgiveness that created christianity. This message is the core.
@133: As a Jew, I feel offended. You make it sound like the Old Testament doesn’t say that forgiveness is a good thing. Do you realize that there are ten whole days of every year where we are supposed to do little but pray and give and seek forgiveness from each other for wrongs committed over the year? Christianity did NOT invent forgiveness; watch what claims you make.
But yes, both the Old and New Testaments are vastly at odds with what these ass bastards are doing. And I do agree with the basic premise of what you said. Any way you slice it, they’re usurping God’s name.
Visit their web site at http://www.repentamarillo.com/map.php and leave them a message (www.repentamarillo.com/Contacts.html).
Or even better, call these douchebags on their PERSONAL phone numbers they posted on the site! (What idiots!)
Pastor David:
Telephone: +1 (806) 553-0128
Hours: 24 Hours A Day
Email: PastorDavid@repentamrillo.com
BigJohn 24 Hour Prayer:
Telephone: +1 (806) 853-PRAY
Hours: 24 Hours A Day
Email:BigJohn@repentamarillo.com
Team Line:
Telephone: +1 (806) 553-0128
Hours: 24 hours A Day
Email: PastorTodd@repentamarillo.com
Tech Support :
Telephone: +1 (806) 553-0124 Hours: 9:00 AM-11:00 PM
Email: Tech@repentamarillo.com
My question is what are the little flecks falling on the website? Ashes?
@136:
Yeah, I think so. I’m not really sure. It adds to the juvenile stupidity of the whole thing.
And speaking of juvenile stupidity:
@119, 121-125, others:
You can choose whether or not you are hateful. You don’t get to choose if you’re gay. There’s no law that says I can’t disagree with you and that I can’t publicly vocalize my disagreement. Disagreeing with a person’s hateful ideas enough that you wouldn’t want to work with them is not bigotry. Now, disagreeing with “who they are,” those elements they have no power to change, well, that’s bigotry.
Conservatives often think being hateful entitles them to special protections just because they choose to be hateful. It’s bullshit. Just stop being hateful if you don’t want people to call you “hateful.” It’s not that hard. So quit whining. Or are you claiming that you were “born hateful”? Seriously?
Now, I personally don’t think people should be fired for disagreeing with their bosses, or say, being a homophobe. Not because it’s bigotry to fire them, just because it doesn’t seem like a very nice thing for a boss to do. As a boss, I just don’t feel it’s my business what my employees’ politics are. As long as they work hard and get the job done right, I generally could care less if they’re a hateful bigot.
This comes with an important caveat: if, specifically, their choosing to engage in hateful bigotry is losing me customers, exposing me to litigation, or threatening my other employees, yeah, well, they’re going to be fired for that. Sorry. You’d do the same if you ran a business. I’m not saying that person shouldn’t be allowed to speak their mind in our society, just go speak it at another, “more tolerant” workplace that’s willing to accept those financial risks. In many cases, these risks are why people who choose to be hateful bigots often get fired: their hate is a business liability. Sometimes, employers just can’t run their business profitably if they have hateful bigots running around. Businesses exist to make a profit.
Other bosses feel that politics are part of the job description, and that’s within their right. But I don’t think that if someone is fired or called out for being hateful that they’ve been victims of “bigotry” or that their human rights have been trampled upon.
Have they? Explain why if you think so. Don’t just assume everyone would think the same way as you; explain your position. Why does “being hateful” make you a member of a protected class? I’ve given you and others the courtesy of explaining mine.
And finally, there’s also huge difference between being harassed and being killed. Have any homophobes been killed, to your knowledge? I mean, I’m not aware of any. It seems the fear is that those holding hateful views might be asked to explain and defend those hateful views to others, and really, they’re too big of pussies to do that. Grow a pair and stand up for what you believe in. But it’s not okay to hate someone and not expect that person to use their freedom of speech to ask you why.
On the other hand, I’m aware of plenty of homosexuals who have been killed for the crime of being born a certain way. Next time, they’ll think twice before having those genes, I’m sure.
This is why we need to do more than ridicule Ken Hutcherson, Mark Driscoll, et al. We need to vocally stand up to this Prayer Warrior shit.
What is this (and the teabaggers, the Palin worshippers, the christian reconstructionists) all leading up to anyway?
Domestic terrorism, then a crackdown on radical right-wing domestic terrorists, then some brutal responses toward the government for going ‘big brother’ on them, and a long civil war in this country of right wing terrorists against the government, liberals, homosexuals, minorities, non-Christians, hedons, etc etc.
Which will keep the right and left from uniting against the real problem in this country, corporatism. We remain divided so they can get away with their plundering
Also, it seems this sort of thing is only going on with “christians” in the United States, and not other countries (right?).
Why is that?
Oh, and, btw, I say all these businesses ought to band together and send out coupon books for the various bars, coffee shops, palm readers, whatever to people who show up on the lists of “Repent Amarillo.” Turn that shit into a marketing tool.
So businesses that operate in conservative communities where homosexual employees would cause them to lose customers can fire the homosexuals, right?
(soorrrry….)
You’d do the same if you ran a business.
Right?
I’m not saying that person shouldn’t be allowed to be a homosexual in our society, just go be homosexual at another, “more tolerant” workplace that’s willing to accept those financial risks. In many cases, these risks are why homosexuals often get fired: their homosexuality is a business liability. Sometimes, employers just can’t run their business profitably if they have homosexuals running around. Businesses exist to make a profit.
137
You falsely equate opposing homosexual marriage with ‘being hateful’.
Is Barack Obama a Hateful Bigoted Homophobe?
Is Elton John a Hateful Bigoted Homophobe?
It would be convenient if we could brand all opinions different from our own Hate that is Unworthy of Being Considered but it doesn’t work that way in a democracy.
Perhaps you could take that schtick to Iran.
137
we wonder how many homosexuals in America actually get killed for being homosexual.
now to be fair, we have to not count the ones who get drunk and proposition redneck homophobes in bars, or the ones who sexually harass and humiliate classmates, or the ones who wait until really charged awkward moments to reveal icky gender surprises- cause being stupid and obnoxious can get you killed also…
we wonder how the number would compare to the number of, say, Blacks who have been killed for being Black.
or even religion- being a member of an unpopular religion has gotten quite a few folks killed in this country.
what if we open it up a little- go international.
in the history of the world how many people have been killed for being Christian?
how many in just the past year across the world?
gosh, we wonder how many Christians were killed by homosexual Roman emperors?…
137
in fact, we wonder how many homosexuals have been killed by haters in Big Bad America compared to the number of homosexuals that have killed each other by dangerous preventable sexual behavior.
how many homosexuals met death from encounters in bathhouses, compared to redneck bars in Wyoming?
we wonder….
is willful irresponsible lethal sexual behavior a Hate Crime?
did you know that homosexual men are 34X as likely to get AIDS as average Americans?
are conservatives ‘being hateful’ giving all those homosexual men AIDS?
137
and while we’re counting dead bodies what if we compare the number of women who die from AIDS in America to the number of homosexuals killed by Hate Crimes.
cause if you follow the epidemiological trail back from that woman you won’t go very far at all before you come to a selfish lying cheating downlow Homosexual.
should we tally how many people in America have been killed by selfish lying cheating downlow Homosexuals?
@142: If an employee was a flamer and making customers nervous, then it would be perfectly okay to fire him if he didn’t tone it down. If someone’s gay, but keeps it to himself, then he’s not losing you customers. It’s the same as with homophobes in accepting areas; if he keeps quiet and just does his job, then there’s no reason to fire him, but if he pulls faces at men who look too fabulous for his taste, or refuses to serve gays, then you pink-slip his ass. It’s all a matter of keeping your personal ideas from interfering with your work.
@143: It’s funny that you say that, as there is no mention of marriage in comment #137 at all. What were you trying to say again?
Opposing gay marriage does not make someone a hateful bigot; opposing gay marriage because they think that gays are evil or immoral does. There are some understandable reasons (not incredibly valid, but understandable) for not letting gays and lesbians get married. Hateful bigots don’t use those reasons; instead, they let loose about how “Teh Ghey” will be the end of us all. Pull that stick out of your ass.
@144: A lot fewer homosexuals have been killed because of their orientation than say, racial or religious minorities, sure. You know why? Gays make up a small portion of society. It’s not because people don’t pick on them, it’s that there’s fewer of them to pick on. Get your head out of your ass. Also, being stupid and obnoxious can get you killed, but if you’re killed BECAUSE YOU’RE GAY, it’s a hate crime, no exceptions.
@145: We’ve already rehashed this. Just to sum up:
Gay panic/hate crime killings are done with intent. Transmission of HIV, not so much; the vast majority of infection happens before the infecter knows that he has the virus. When people willingly transmit a fatal infection, it is murder and is prosecuted as such. Key word “willingly”; almost all the spread of HIV is due to the long incubation period of the virus.
@146: How would a woman catch HIV from a homosexual man? By the time gay men are having sex with other gay men, they tend to have stopped giving women the pickle-tickle. Face it; HIV got into this country through HETEROSEXUAL sex tourism, and spreads among straight people more or less independently of its spread among gays. Blaming AIDS on gays just because they’re more likely to have it is like blaming black people for sickle-cell anemia.
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it, venomlash, well done, but I’m going to go ahead and flush out some details:
@142:
Oh, real clever. Your argument here would make sense if I agreed that being a hateful bigot was analogous to being homosexual, and therefore both should be protected from firing due to their homosexual/bigoted status. I don’t. Being a homosexual is a quality you’re born with, being a hateful bigot is something you can change. Therefore, there’s nothing wrong with firing a hateful bigot.
On top of that, being a homosexual doesn’t hurt anyone. Being a hateful bigot does. They’re not the same and so cannot be treated the same way.
Your argument is, in fact, the exact same as the following: “Well, you Seattleite retard, if you’re allowed to fire me for being racist, I should be allowed to fire you for being black.” Clearly this is bullshit, as your being racist hurts people and is something you can do something about. My being black is neither a problem nor is it reversible.
@143:
I disagree with venomlash here. Being against gay marriage means you have hateful, bigoted views. It’s possible, therefore, that Barack Obama and Elton John are hateful bigots toward gay people, but I’d have to know more about why they think gay marriage is a bad idea, and if you’re even telling the truth. If it’s because they think “marriage is between a man and a woman,” then yeah, on this issue, they’re hateful bigots.
If they think equality is not a pragmatic policy right now for political reasons, then it’s not quite as bad; though it is still probably bigotry.
Finally, venomlash makes an added point: you can be a bigot without being a “hateful” bigot, I think. If you don’t want equality because gays are evil or inhuman, you’re a hateful bigot. If you don’t want it because you know people won’t like you if you do, you’re probably just a bigot; you don’t specifically hate a person for who they are.
@144:
I personally think if you kill someone for being Christian, it’s also a hate crime. So yeah, the Roman emperors were hateful bigots. But I’m disturbed you read “Christian” when I said “hateful bigot.” I don’t think all Christians have to be hateful bigots (most are not); conversely, I don’t think all hateful bigots are Christian. Being a hateful bigot has nothing to do with being a Christian, so the fact Roman emperors killed Christians for being Christians probably has nothing do to with the fact hateful bigots killed Matthew Shepard and Harvey Milk for being gay. Again, I’d have to know more about the circumstances.
@145:
You can have gay sex without getting or transmitting AIDS. Therefore, having gay sex does not hurt anyone if done responsibly, just as having straight sex does not hurt anyone if done responsibly.
If I were to agree with your argument, plenty of people would be guilty of a hate crime for engaging in straight behavior, ie. having sex with heterosexual partners. Furthermore, refer to venomlash’s comments: when you kill a gay person for being gay, you mean to do it usually. When you transmit AIDS, it’s far less likely you have that intent.
@146:
Yeah, this is a really stupid argument. Gays are not to blame for AIDS, just as they are not really to blame for other diseases their behaviors might cause or exacerbate, such as lung cancer, obesity, or streptococcus.
This obviously doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take precautions against AIDS, or that you shouldn’t be held accountable if you were engaging in gay sex merely with the intention of spreading AIDS around. But these things are totally different issues than the mere status of being homosexual, which you’re trying here to somehow disparage or criminalize on the basis of them.
Added issue:
This whole “liberals are intolerant of hateful bigots” argument is a dead-end, guys. Your fundamental premise is that being intolerant is a bad thing. If this is so, no one should ever be a hateful bigot. So even if you were to argue effectively that liberals have unjustified intolerance against hateful bigots, you still will have bought into the argument that being a hateful bigot is wrong, which, again, would mean the liberals were right.
It’s not internally consistent for that reason: it uses a premise to justify a behavior that is, by definition, negated by that premise. I don’t get it.
“Hateful bigotry” is not a thing a person is, it’s a thing a person does. Gay is a thing a person is.
It’s sometimes not very nice to discriminate against a thing a person does, but it’s totally different than discriminating against a thing a person is.
The former is an annoyance, something anyone can put up with, though perhaps irritating. The latter is moral injustice.
@25
“I really wish Texas would stop embarrassing me.”
And we wish you would stop using a radically fanatical group in a small West Texas town as a mold for all of Texas. Texas is a very big state my friend. Let me assure you, as a heavily tattooed, not so “typical” Texan Christian (that was born in and lived in Amarillo for 23 yrs), I am neither a lunatic Christian zealot, condemning all who dance, drink and alter their bodies, nor am I embarrassing you by way of a group other people’s actions and beliefs. You’re trying to fit a leer jet into and envelope, and I regret to inform you that the rest of us in Texas don’t fit in that envelope. And by the way, Minutemen was lovingly brought to you by the part of the country known as Utah by a company named Salty Pictures. Texas is South I’m afraid.
It’s the people’s attitude like yours that create intolerance and hate that are ruining humanity.