An atheist suggests that Africa needs Christianity:
Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people’s hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.
Um, er. I’m not an expert in this, but I think there’s got to be a better way to go about things.
This was written in contemporary times? Not, say, in 1814?
Until you have killed millions over a period of a couple thousand years in the name of JESUS, your society cann’t evolve and develop.
Fuck, stop being stupid Paul!!
Isn’t the Ethiopian church older than the Roman one? How long is this magical change supposed to take?
The Evangelicals better get cracking! Looks like Islam has a big head start.
Weird.
Paging Charles. Paging Charles. Commie comments forthcoming.
Christianity as a catlyst for overcoming “tribal groupthink”? Well, of course it’s possible that such a thing has happened, perhaps even many times. But I highly doubt that Christianity in and of itself is responsible.
I knew a number of missionaries growing up, and I got the sense that they exported their own (Western) cultural values as much as their personal religious faith. And that may have helped some people open up to a broader realm of ideas, but it also carried its own set of dangers.
As a non-religious person who has spent some time in Africa watching aid in action, I heartily second this opinion.
If you spend any time in sub-saharan Africa, it immediately becomes clear that the vast majority of effective, sustained development aid in Africa is being done by Christian organiztions. Western progressive’s ideas for fostering African development in a secular vein may be just dandy, but the people motivated to provide hard-working “boots on the ground” are nearly all religious. And many are doing amazing work that deserves our praise and support.
Isn’t the point of all that Christian NGO money in Africa to convert them? So couldn’t you make the argument that if large numbers of African converted to Christianity then evangelical groups would no longer have an incentive to pour money into the continent?
4
That is a big part of Africa’s problem
If only our troops weren’t bogged down in the War on Christmas, we could have stayed focused on destroying the last remaining Christian aid in Africa.
africa needs the Dharma. as does everyone.
You queers and liberals don’t want to face the fact that what makes Western Civilization different from (and ‘better’ than) Africa or the Arab Middle East is the Christian cultural influences. Europe is running away from those cultural values that made it great as fast as it can, forces in America would have us do the same but are much less successful.
Homosexual activist who declare war on religion find themselves on the wrong side of that struggle.
Religion is not perfect but Christianity has been the single most elevating influence on mankind and societies that embrace it more benefit the most.
@8 – David, I don’t think that’s what this guy is arguing. He’s not saying that religious organizations have more “boots on the ground” and therefore are more effective.
He’s saying that there’s something inherently different about a Christian effort than a secular one. That even if they have the same number of people on the ground, the Christian organization would be more effective. That becoming Christians helps Africans survive and thrive in a way that they could not if they remained non-Christian.
I don’t know – even as a non-religious person, I’m not willing to dismiss this idea out of hand. The link is an interesting read. He is saying that in the countries he discusses, the culture is one of passivity and that something about Christianity makes converts more active in trying to change their lives and the lives of others…
I’m not willing to dismiss this because I think this is the “true” message of Christianity (social justice, devotion to others) — a message that easy for us to be cynical about in the US, given the state of Christianity here.
Wow, that is so fucked up and patronizing, I don’t know where to start or where to begin.
Of course, I’ve never been to Africa and don’t know what I’m talking about, so who knows? Maybe he’s right. Still doesn’t make it any less fucked up and patronizing.
Paul,
Read this piece this morning.
I, too had a simliar experience in Cameroon, Africa. I had antipathy towards
missioner work (mostly their zeal) when I entered Africa but grew to respect them for the genuine good work they performed. Few, if any prosletyzed me (I was in the Peace Corps). If literacy was one of their ends, then many Africans today can read or write, English, French or Portugese as a result of missioners’ work. I share Parris’ sentiment as well. Bully for most of the Protestant and Catholic missions.
@13: the term you’re searching for that separates the “west” from africa & the middle east is THE ENLIGHTENMENT. not christianity.
@13 is Mr. Poe, right? The same one trolling the gay marriage thread?
Sorry if I’m ruining the joke.
Y’know, like ’em or not, churches have evolved their methods of social engineering over millennia, and some of those methods are pretty darn effective and can have beneficial outcomes as well as the oft-discussed negatives. Eternal salvation is a pretty effective motivator, and can encourage large groups of people to look beyond their immediate comfort towards a greater good. Sure, it requires them to buy into what sounds suspiciously like a childish fantasy of a just universe, but the flip side of this is that it’s simple enough to be easily understandable to most people in a way that some sort of Rousseauian “social contract” conception of social morality is not.
Do what works. Christian values are good values. When the country pulls itself up from dispair, they can become more individulized. In the meantime unifying under a christian view is helpful. When they become as advanced and wealthy as the scandinavian countries, like them, they can drop the religious stuff.
yeah it’s oh so evil that those darn missionaries are spreading there “western values” on the african continate
well I’m wondering how a limp-wristed seattlite like yourself who cant even change a tire or at least inquire for help because he’s such a shy little pussy would fare if dropped of in genocidal tribal africa…I bet you’d be begging for some “western values’ at that point
Actually, I think I get the idea. African cultures tend to be highly externalized – basically, they don’t feel that they have a high degree of control of their lives and fates. The native religions I’ve dealt with are quite frequently the same way. The change of thinking that Christianity would inspire would make people think and behave more internally.
So while I would totally disagree with a lot of Christianity, I can definitely see where this would make a big difference.
If this is true, maybe it’s because Xtian missionaries really believe in their message. People believe someone more readily when he himself believes what he’s saying. That’s partly why self-delusion is such a useful trait in leaders.
I read that in a book someplace.
…and @21
An atheist who suggests other people convert to Christianity is not an atheist at all.
Perhaps missionaries do help people in poverty, but they do it for the wrong reasons. Their ultimate goal is to convert people, gaining their own ticket to heaven in the process. Poverty relief is secondary to them.
Read the history of Christianity. It’s a bloody, brain sucking disgrace. It’s tantamount to witchcraft. A cult to stupidity. The one true evil. If Satan were real, Christianity would be his favorite religion! What Africa needs is education, not superstition.
Julie @ 8: You are right that Kalu and I are not saying quite the same thing. But I think that basically we are just viewing the same underlying phenomenon from slightly different angles. The ability of Christian organizations to put sustained, motivated, and effective boots on the ground probably arises from the Christian emphasis on responsibility, duty, charity, amd rejection of fatalism.
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/…
I’m sorry, but are we fucking forgetting that Christianity is the bullshit reason behind colonialism, IE, what fucked Africa up in the first place?
Are we seriously saying that the problem is the cure? Jesus Christ. As if winning over hearts and minds is the only solution Africa needs. Didn’t we learn, with Iraq, that problems on a national (or continental) scale require a multi-faceted approach, instead of some general Christianity band-aid?
@25 – sure he is, he’s just a patronizing a-hole atheist.
@29, no, I think “we” are just laughing at this one idiot’s expressed opinion.
BTW, the great thing about being an atheist is that you in no way can be connected to the expressed opinions of other atheists, since two atheists have nothing in common other than a lack of belief in anything.
It may or may not be Mr. Poe, but either way I’m really amused that certain people on Slog think every troll or abrasive commenter with a non-left or un-PC point of view has to be either a) Mr. Poe or b) SusanUnPC.
These types people do exist. Really.
My grandfather and grandmother went to Angola, Africa in 1929 as medical missionaries and my parents also worked there for 15 years. If it weren’t for the civil war, I would have spent my entire life on a mission in Angola. One of my uncles and aunts also served as missionaries, one in Angola and the other in Zambia. You could say my family business is Christian Missions in Africa.
First, we cannot take the experience of one person in one or two countries and apply it to “Africa”. Africa is a huge multi-cultural place with various experiences with colonial and religious influences. I will speak only to my experience in Angola. Be very leery of people who will speak to all of Africa with a blanket issue or solution.
I am also now an atheist and have a great deal of ambivalence about the effect of Christian missionaries in Angola. On one hand, the work that my family did in Angola is still seen even after the country was under a 32 year civil war. When we returned in 2007, 7500 people came to hear my dad speak and we spent 2 days singing, baptizing and preaching. It was an experience that almost converted me back to Christianity. My family was instrumental in building a 200 bed hospital, a 500 student school and bringing water and electricity to many thousands more. My dad ran a dairy and mission farms as well as the hospital Lab, my mom taught at the school. Some of her students have become layers; one serves in the National Parliament as a representative and the other as a representative of the local provincial government. One of my mom’s students was given a stipend for nursing school by my uncle, and that man is now a nurse working in the provincial hospital even after losing a leg to a mine during the war. One family friend who my dad taught to drive became a commercial driver who was killed by a land mine during the war. Though they were motivated by religion to do the good they did, they did a fantastic amount of good. Today Secular NGO’s and European Union grants and business investments make up the bulk of the money being spent on projects, but the boots on the ground, permanently are those of missionaries and churches. Churches represent some of the most functional organizations in Angola, which makes them a natural for taking investments and bringing the benefit to the people who need them. The hospital my grandfather built will be re-built someday soon and his legacy will live on. I am very proud of my families’ history in Angola.
On the other hand, I saw the horrific effects of prosperity based evangelical missionaries from Brazil building palatial marble and glass churches in the middle of abject poverty in the big cities. They take money from people who have none and promise prosperity to all while the only ones who prosper is the ministers and their Brazilian masters. It is disgusting. Other evangelical churches are growing in influence in Angola as the traditional missionary churches such as Catholic and mainstream Protestants are merely holding on.
The history of Colonialism is horrid, the European powers ruled many African countries without educating the citizens. In fact, the Portuguese kept black people out of government in Angola and Mozambique on purpose. When Portugal pulled out of Angola and Mozambique in the 1970’s the countries were literally without knowledge of how to run a civil society. They were kept this way purposefully. On the other hand, churches educated citizens to function at all levels of organizational management. When civil war came and most non natives left, those left in charge of religious institutions fared much better than those running civil institutions. There is a long history of functional religious institutions where the history of civil institutions are of war.
@17
Thanks, Max;
but ‘Christianity’ is exactly the term I was searching for.
Sorry, I don’t know Mr Poe.
Support your favorite humanist organization in Africa; e.g., http://www.iheu.org/node/1047
P.S.–@18, I had guessed it was Lord Basil’s tiny penis.
Pardon? What about the Catholic church’s policy of overt misinformation about condom use? What about Christian dogma empowering animist superstition and encouraging parents of “child witches” all over Western Africa to torture, abandon, and sometimes outright murder their own children?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJSME0TO… ://atheistmedia.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-11-24T21%3A30%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=12
Christianity did go to Africa, and not from Europe. It fanned out from the middle east to Asia and Africa, independent of Europe. @3 is right, by the time Christianity got to london there were 10th generation christians in Ethiopia. By 300, 400 AD there were christians close to equatorial africa.
See Philip Jenkins and his book “The lost history of Christianity: the 1000 year golden age of the church in the middle east, africa and asia, and how it died”.
Matthew Parris give heathens of Africa body and blood of Jeebus, heathens of Africa eat body of Jeebus, drink blood of Jeebus, freak out, Falwell out, HEATHENS OF AFRICA BECOME EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN FASCIST PSYCHO CHURCH OF JEEBUS HULK!
CHURCH OF JEEBUS HULK WILL SMASH DARK-SKINNED HEATHENS ON EVERY CONTINENT IN THE NAME OF JEEBUS HULK!
And no, I don’t feel like letting it go.
34 — no, you really do mean The Enlightenment. Look what hardcore, limitless Christianity did to Europe between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance. They didn’t call it the Dark Ages for nothing.
Nothing will save Africa, and Christianity makes Africans even crazier than they were before, see “The Lord’s Resistance Army” and other African-Christian cult warlord armies. Most Africans will be extinct in 50 years anyways from their insane wars and out-of-control fucking and AIDS baby-raping.
@39
OK, I’ll compromise and narrow my focus; let’s say Reformation, the process of escaping what Christianity had become during the Dark Ages and trying to get back to what it was originally;
a process that involved printing and expanded literacy(making the Bible widely available was a critical part of it)
and the drive for self government and freedom to practice religion (the establishment of the American Republic was another critical component).
I am not saying that terrible things were not done in the name of religion but if you look at the positive things that have happened in the world since the Dark Ages the principles that animate Protestantism were there.
The Western world is now turning to Humanism, but to its detriment. (the drive to legitimize homosexual conduct and the accompanying assault on religion are critical elements in that movement)
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/…
Villagers massacred in Congo, Ugandan government and rebels blame each other
12:00 AM CST on Tuesday, December 30, 2008
Godfrey Olukya, The Associated Press
KAMPALA, Uganda – Attackers hacked to death scores of people who sought refuge at a Catholic church in remote eastern Congo the day after Christmas, officials and witnesses said Monday.
The Ugandan army and a rebel group accused each other of carrying out the massacre.
Survivors and witnesses said the killings occurred close to Congo’s border with Sudan, near where the armies of those two countries and Uganda began an offensive this month to root out the rebel Lord’s Resistance Army.
A U.N. spokesman said 120 homes were set ablaze in the area and that thousands of people have fled for fear of further attacks.
Death toll estimates varied, in part because the area is so remote.
A European aid worker said more than 100 people are reported to have been killed in the attack, and the Congolese military put the number dead at 120 to 150.
The United Nations said the rebels killed 189 people in three villages over two days, 89 of them at Doruma, where the church is located.
The Lord’s Resistance Army has waged one of Africa’s longest and most brutal wars for the last two decades. The conflict has spilled out of northern Uganda and into Sudan and Congo.
“The scene at the church was unbelievable. It was horrendous. On the floor were dead bodies of mostly women and children cut in pieces,” Ugandan army spokesman Capt. Chris Magezi said.
The rebels denied responsibility, their spokesman saying the group had no fighters in the area and accusing Uganda’s army of the killings.
But witness Abel Longi said he recognized the rebels by their dreadlocked hair, their Acholi language and the number of young boys among them.
Godfrey Olukya, The Associated Press
What “christian” church should be represented? I have a Pentacostal mother and a Baptist father so I am very well versed in bible-thumping-Jesus-freak types.
“In Africa Christianity changes people’s hearts”-LOL!
Christians have been in Africa manipulating vulnerable populations for ages. I had a chance to visit the slave castles in Ghana and there in the middle of one sits a little chapel.
The Christians I met were of the mega-church variety. They were only concerned with their flocks offering. They preached about witches, the devil and spells being cast among other things. That preacher in the Palin video casting out demons was exactly like the christian preacher I encountered in Ghana.
I build your well because the Lord has decided I should do so.
I poison your well because the devil made me or The Lord is angry at gays, or loose women, or whomever-you-want-blame and commanded it be done.
Religion is big business.
niggers are stupid
@ 44 Talk about stupid!
Niggers are AWESOME!!!!!