Surely the folks who’ve accused me of being a card-carrying member of the KKK for even noticing the disproportionate support for Prop 8 in the African American community will be appalled to read Mary Mitchell’s column in today’s Chicago Sun-Times. Check out Mitchell’s blatantly racist and wildly bigoted analysis of the passage of Prop 8:
…it is difficult to understand how African Americans emerged among the primary opponents of gay marriage. In California, at least, the impact of the record turnout of African Americans in the general election is being blamed for the passage of Proposition 8, an amendment to that state’s constitution that outlaws marriage by gay and lesbian couples.
“Needless to say [Barack] Obama didn’t need black voters to win California,” said David Bositis of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies…. “He won the majority of the white, Hispanic and Asian-American vote. There was a big increase in black turnout,” Bositis noted.
“African Americans represented 6 percent of all California voters in 2004. That number jumped to 10 percent in 2008. If black voters had voted in the share they voted in 2004, Prop. 8 would have probably failed,” he said.
Mitchell fans the flames of bigotry by noting that while blacks voted in large numbers to “protect” marriage…
…black people are the least likely of all the racial groups to get married.
And then Mitchell has the nerve to lecture African Americans who voted against gay marriage for religious reasons…
African Americans would do well to remember that it wasn’t so long ago that some whites used the Bible to justify their bigotry.
African Americans “would do well to remember”? How condescending is that?
And finally, after she gently admonishes the gay community to get to work, Mitchell quickly returns to upbraiding African Americans for their bigotry—she even goes so far as to echo my comments about how African American gays and lesbians are the chief victims of African American homophobia:
As for the gay community, the passage of Prop. 8 exposes how much work has to be done to gain the support of black voters on this issue. And too many blacks are acting as if the battles the gay community are fighting have nothing to do with us.
They do.
Black gays and lesbians probably have it far worse than other groups….
You can read Mitchell’s entire column here—oh, and Mitchell will be hosting an online chat today at 1 PM www.suntimes.com. Doubtless some Sloggers will want to head over to Mitchell’s chat to explain to her that she’s a racist, a card-carrying member of the KKK, that she’s part of the problem, not part of the solution, etc.
Dan, I put this in the last post. You saw Roeper today, right?
http://www.suntimes.com/news/roeper/1284…
I’ve stayed out of this whole “Dan is a racist” discussion, because I really don’t understand how it’s racist to point out the fact that African Americans voted disproportionately for Prop 8 and if they had voted in the same way as other voters in the state, Prop 8 might have failed.
I mean, I understand the comments discrediting the exit poll (“the facts presented are inaccurate”). But, I’ve just been trying to listen to the “Dan is a racist” folks to try to see their point, and so far, I have not been convinced.
Dan, everything you have said re black homophobia may be correct, but being correct by itself isn’t worth shit.
You need to be *persuasive*, and a white guy generalizing about black voters isn’t going to win a single black vote. Now, a black woman making generalizations about black people? That might actually work. I know, it’s not fair.
You struck just the right tone of deference on the DL Hughely show last week, so I guess you already understand this. The fact that you didn’t reach across the table and strangle him shows you have super-human powers. You should make more guest appearances on black TV shows – that kind of visibility may actually help the cause.
Do you see why she’s in a better position to level these criticisms without coming off as an asshole than, say, Bill O’Reilly, who also has been crediting black voter turnout for Prop 8’s victory?
Not going to let this go, are you Dan? Are you trying to become some kind of martyr?
I think only white people should talk about white people, black about black, gay about gay, men about men, women about women, movie stars about movie stars, presidents about presidents etc.
This whole “communicating to other people who aren’t their demographic twin” is offensive. If some group votes against your interests and you aren’t a member of that group, put a sock in it.
I don’t understand, how is telling the truth racist? Can anyone explain that to me.
Your sarcasm knows no bounds, Dan.
You posted her picture so everybody can see that she is black, too. So she’s extra-allowed to say things about black people.
Have you ever posted a picture of the columnist/writer you are referring to? No.
It’s condescending to point out someone’s problems without offering a solution, ideas or assistance. It’s like pointing out the fat kid in class and making up an easily remembered chant because you can’t justify your irrational emotions. It’s only self-serving. In this, case, it helps you build a flimsy case that you, personally, are being put upon by black people and naysayers. If you have a problem with something, you do better by offering a solution, which is something you clearly have not done.
In this article, she points at gay people and says “enough talk, there should be action” — the irony is that you choose to forgo what should have been as clear as the nose on your face and instead choose to try to wallpaper your own behind by saying “LOOK, EVEN THE BLACK PEOPLE HATE THEMSELVES!”
The next time you make a post like this, offer a solution instead of some token “duh, really?” notion like “we should reach out to the churches”. Maybe you could suggest a round table with Pastor Hutch? You make fun of him, but as you can see, your disregard for the power of people like him has left you sore and whiny.
Of course at this point, I doubt you’d even deign to be in the same room as him unless he was bringing you your car keys or clearing your table.
@non
He does when it would cause you to look at the article differently. The fact that she herself is black shows this as more than just a white person “being all racist and shit”.
And no, I do not think that people who are of a different ethnicity or gender should be forced to keep quiet or else be labeled racist- that is simply stupid.
Enough with this “REACH OUT” or “OUT REACH” crap. STOP BLAMING THE VICTIM. Saying there was not or is not enough out reach to any community is like saying to the rape victim that s/he did not scream loud enough, did not fight hard enough, did not dress modestly enough. The rights of Gay Californians were taken away. That is a violation. Stop blaming the victim and start looking the attacker in the face and calling them what they are.
Oh, shit! This whole time I thought you were talking about MARK Mitchell!
@7: White people are land-thieves and murderers. They live on land that was stolen and perpetuate the slow death of the previous culture of this land. They’ve broken almost every treaty, and as an institution within government, owe natives billions of dollars that they cling to like the money-hoarding thieves they are.
That’s the truth, but what good does it do? It browbeats, it belittles, it condescends, but it offers no solution. It’s merely to give leverage of one group over another and in this case, it’s focused on one trait: race. It disregards the social leanings or history of most every member of the race and it gives absolutely no clue as to what is wanted or needed to move forward in a way that doesn’t force total and unexplained capitulation.
The assumptions given by these posts make no concessions to the >30% of black people who did not vote “yes” on Prop 8, they are the same thread from the same cloth that the initial outrage came from. It’s a glaring condemnation of all black people, regardless of who they are or how they voted. And when they are separated out, it’s always into two camps: good blacks and bad blacks, which, again, is a glaring condemnation of all black people — the “good blacks” should tell the “bad blacks” why gay people are okay.
As a single solid issue, it should be dropped. This needs to be gathered up into a larger social statement that focuses on all “yes” voters, especially considering how small the black population is in comparison to the rest of the nation.
Christ, Dan, give it up. Your role in the gay communities is different from hers. And her role in black communities is different from yours.
Can you tell me what kind of constructive purpose a post like this serves? We have a movement to rebuild and you are wasting your energy and considerable credibility in the community on this stupid sandbox fight with strawmen. And I thought you said last week that you were done posting on the subject? Yeah?
While I disagree with both you and Mitchell about the information we can extract from the exit poll, I surely don’t think either of you was out of bounds in writing about it. The problem is that you, Dan Savage, came at it from the wrong angle — not “What can we do about this for our black brothers and sisters?” or “How can we better reach these people?” but “Why did I vote for Obama if those black jerks aren’t supporting me and mine?” And then you had to hold up one marginal Detroit rapper as a sign of how homophobic black people are? Not helpful. Illogical. And yes, a touch racist.
oh great so now you’re not just writing your own racist articles, you’re linking to other racist columnist too!?
I believe Dan’s intentions are good, but I cannot believe how credulous journalists are being about this exit poll.
In 2000, this exit poll was the reason news outlets called Florida for Gore before the polls even closed, which was inaccurate and may have even caused Bush to win due to depressed voter turnout once the election was “called.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat…
In 2004, this exit poll said Kerry won the presidential election, when it is clear he did not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United…
This exit poll is completely unscientific, for a myriad of reasons, including a small sample size (~224 black people in California were polled), non-random sampling (only a few polling places are chosen), and self-selected responders (most people asked don’t answer the exit poll).
The exit poll about Proposition 8 doesn’t even make sense and people are drawing conclusions from the polls that even the polling company doesn’t claim. For example, the polling data says 10% of the people polled in California were black, not that 10% of all California voters were black. It also says 75% of black women and 64% of black men voted for Prop 8, even though all past data says that black women are less homophobic and more in favor of gay civil rights than black men. The polling is also inconsistent — a larger percentage of white people voted for the Arkansas gay adoption ban than black people. Then, journalists are claiming that if black people turned out at the same rates as white people then Prop 8 would have failed, when even if you take the exit polls as fact, simple math shows this is not true.
The credulity of journalists and bloggers about these exit polls is ridiculous and disheartening. It’s more intellectually dishonest than just parroting White House statements about the drug war and claiming they are fact.
In the future, please do not give this exit poll any attention. In every single one of our past 3 presidential elections, it has proven to be a tremendous failure.
Seriously, Dan, let it go.
Okay, yes, an unusually large number of black people made a poor choice on Prop 8, fueled in part by misinformation and cultural prejudices.
Now, what are we going to do about it?
Good job Dan! This Mexican-American is proud of you. Don’t give into the one-upsmanship “my oppression” is worse than yours bullshit and therefore you should keep your mouth shut. They aren’t worth the time or effort. There will always be those that are unreachable. Leave em that way.
@20, Mark in Colorado
Who is telling Dan that his or her oppression is “worse than” Dan’s? Who is telling him to keep his mouth shut? Let’s try to stay on the page, eh?
You sure waste a lot of space defending yourself.
And why not call for a CALIFORNIA boycott? They seem to be a bigger problem than Utah. Lotsa Mormons there too….
Up, up and awaaay
In my beautiful, my beautiful
Trial balloooooooon….
I really hope you’re not serious about this. Is it a case of “Nah na na na naa, see I’m right a black a woman said it”? Are you really saying that because a black woman said something, then black people should agree?
Her arguments were just as silly as yours: “Mitchell fans the flames of bigotry by noting that while blacks voted in large numbers to “protect” marriage… ‘ …black people are the least likely of all the racial groups to get married.’”
Your sarcasm aside, are you friggin serious? Because as a group African Americans marry in the lowest numbers, no black person can want to “protect” marriage? Seriously? So, because gay people as an aggregate proportionally shove the most rodents in their anuses then no gay person can support animal rights?
As has been echoed countless times on this board, religious people represent the largest group that voted that voted to eliminate the rights of gay people and blacks number high among the religious. Yours, and Mitchell’s, rant that blacks are “probably” (talk about a hedge big enough to hide behind) responsible for the passing of prop 8 is just is irresponsible bullshit. Why are you not speaking about the increase in the gay vote for republicans?
http://www.towleroad.com/2008/11/cnn-exi…
http://www.oasisjournals.com/2008/11…i…
Seriously, Dan, let it go. People are allowed to vote as they please. I’m sick and tired of these rants that we voted for your man so you should have voted against prop 8. If that was the case then you should have voted for McCain.
@14 is correct about truth and how it is spun. I read Mary Mitchell often and she is usually a dingbat but she was dead-on correct about this. And as an African American I am always shocked when gay white people think African Americans are so open minded about equality and acceptance of gay people. For goodness sakes Luther VanDross died of a stroke because he couldn’t come out of the closet, Tavis Smiley cannot come out of the closet, Queen Latifa cannot come out of the closet, and Tyler Perry pretends he is not out of the closet.
#11. And no, I do not think that people who are of a different ethnicity or gender should be forced to keep quiet or else be labeled racist- that is simply stupid.
I completely agree. And no race or gender has sole claim to civil rights issues.
Dan’s distinguishing between The Civil Rights Movement that black people fought in the 60s and the civil rights movement that we’re fighting now is a perfect and correct distinction.
African Americans do not have copyright of oppression, bigotry, or civil rights.
This is all contributing to my disdain for black people.
Thanks for the additional evidence.
@21. Many, many have told Dan to “shut the fuck up” and “let it go” and “please stop.” Hell, calling him a racist is a way of trying to get him to stop talking about this.
And there have been many posts in previous threads by black people who say that gays and lesbians have not had to “go through the struggles” that they have. They have compared their oppression to ours. Others have pointed out that sodomy held a death sentence for centuries, gays and lesbians were killed by the thousands during the Holocaust, etc. It’s a damn shame that we have to remind African Americans of this. I doubt the roles would ever be reversed.
I do not solely blame black people for Prop 8 passing, but every one of them who voted for it shares the blame and is a bigot. Pointing this out doesn’t make me a racist anymore than pointing it out makes Dan or Mary Mitchell one.
@24. You seem to not be able to recognize irony when it’s biting you in the butt.
@18
Yeah, Dan doesn’t “let things go”. Pitbulls, anybody? We’re gonna be hearing about how Dan’s not a racist (which seems obviously true to me) for, like, 6 months. At least.
Yes, the state that has anti-discrimination laws and civil unions is a bigger problem that a state that does not.
Oh, and Dan? Grow up.
@24:
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/11/anot…
Thank you for playing Slog.
Yeah, #29, but if I was repeatedly and unfairly called a racist–right after my civil rights had been stripped away in four more states in my own country–I’d have a hard time letting it go too.
@32: And that’s why I’m not letting this go. Like I said in this post…
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
An accusation of racism can itself be hate speech. I haven’t been harping away at this — unlimited ability to post here, posted not even a dozen items on this subject. Between “you can’t say that!” and “now that we’ve called you a racist motherfucker, *let it go,* Dan!”, I don’t see why I should give it a rest.
But I didn’t go looking for Mitchell’s column. No Google alerts have been created. Someone sent it to me and said, “Isn’t she saying what you were basically saying?” And she is, so I posted it.
But, yeah: I am a bad, bad man. Please don’t read my blog, etc.
@33: Because you don’t offer a single solution. Where’s your call for a roundtable with the self-styled opposition on the subject to find out where they’re coming from? Where’s your call to have a coalition of bloggers and reporters come together from all races to discuss the topic? Where’s the solutions, Dan? All we have is shrill accusations with little substance behind the facade.
You’re a less-mannish Ann Coulter.
re: “It’s condescending to point out someone’s problems without offering a solution, ideas or assistance.”
Here’s a solution STOP BEING A BIGOT.
Well, Dan, if you are going to keep harping on this can you at least limit it to reports of how effectively this tactic is changing the minds of homophobic blacks?
lmao, like journalists understand anything math related.
Nate Silver explained what happened quite well. Mary Mitchell is wrong. The increased black turnout did NOT cause Prop 8 to pass, because the early voters who made up the big increase in turnout overwhelming opposed Prop 8 — even among blacks. The increased black turnout, like the increased turnout in every group, made the margin much SMALLER, not bigger.
Your culprit, among blacks as well as whites, is OLD PEOPLE.
I agree, Fnarf, and said so on Colbert.
If I didn’t know better, I’d get the sense you were enjoying this, Dan.
If I didn’t know better.
I for one enjoy watching Dan push a little dogshit back in the faces of everyone who’s been calling him the “R” word lately. There is a role for simply condemning and accusing , and Dan does it well. Constructive suggestions can only come once there is some actual admission of a problem.
As far as all this “outreach” and “roundtable” shit goes, you can’t have it both ways. If the AA community didn’t play a significant role in passing prop 8, then they won’t play a significant role in repealing it. What’s the point of doing outreach to a community when there’s nothing to be gained from it? I don’t think we owe it to anyone to ‘redeem’ them from ignorant, hateful opinions as an end in itself. We don’t owe ourselves anything but victory.
But keep in mind that victory should not be at any price, especially the price of groveling before the unworthy and pleading for their blessing. It is far better to win 5 years later than to kiss the collective ass of a few bigots now. You didn’t see Malcolm X or MLK debase themselves by trying to reach out to the people who hated them. They confronted society, and they made it clear the wanted nothing to do with entrenched racists. Malcolm X basically scorned white people, while MLK made it clear those who changed their mind were welcome – but he didn’t cravenly beg anyone to reconsider. Different styles, to be sure. But as I’ve said before, the sympathetic came to them – not the other way around. The hateful ones simply lost, and watched their culture die, and were never redeemed. They weren’t worth it.
I don’t think you were being called a “racist” or a “bigot” because you pointed out the bigotry within the black community. I think you were called those things because you made race an issue when more predictive and dominant criteria were at play and because you (and your surrogates) continue to use data to support you views well past the time the data and its use have been discredited.
So Mary Mitchell is using the same data and twisting it to fit her conclusion the way you did. And because she’s black, that’s suppose to justify your views. Seriously? Does that mean if I find a Log Cabin Republican who was for Proposition 8, I can declare that everyone who voted for Proposition 8 was justified for doing so? I hope not.
Just as I hope that the homophobia in the black community doesn’t overshadow the homophobia in the other racial populations. Had the homophobia among them been less, there’s an even greater chance that Proposition 8 would have failed. After all, they voted in record numbers in this election, too, and as groups, they had more impact on the outcome. Why they are getting a free pass on your outrage is one of the reasons you bias is being called into question.
But more so, it’s because race isn’t the best determinant of how someone voted on Proposition 8. Looking at what information is available, it appears age, faith, and residence (rural versus urban) were stronger predictors of the vote. You, however, continue to make it about race.
Further, you continue to make it about one race’s homophobia in particular.
That doesn’t make you a racist, but it does suggest a bigotry that none of the context you’ve provided so far can dispel.
But I know better.
Again, we’re still waiting for a posting from you about exactly what SOLUTIONS you would suggest, Dan, or any indication that you’ve had any sort of conversation with or input from local Queers of Color or religious leaders to see what they might think about the situation.
Instead of continuing to repeat the accusations and counter-accusations of the Prop 8 Mess, how about helping get us a path out of the mess so we can work on fixing the situation? Suggestions? Constructive ones please?
When HIV prevention was languishing and the NWAF was a toothless mess, you stepped up and created Gay City. How about another constructive action on this front–racism in the Queer community/homophobia in communities of color?
@41. There is a role for simply condemning and accusing , and Dan does it well. Constructive suggestions can only come once there is some actual admission of a problem.
Exactly. I hate to sound like an AA counselor, but we’ll get nowhere until there is an admission of the problem without reactionary counter accusations about racism among gay men.
And #42, he’s not saying that Mitchell “justifies” his views because she’s black. He’s pointing out the hypocrisy of black people being able to point to problems within their community with no recriminations, while he was labeled a racist for saying almost the exact same thing.
I’m certainly no genius, but I’m beginning to think that much of this debate stems from people not being able to read critically or understand irony or nuance.
Glen, Bernard, John, Neil, these were a few of my black friends when I lived in SF. And Lupe, Mario, Bobby and Caesar were some of my Hispanic buddies. They mostly hung out together but never had a problem with me, the white guy. Most of them are dead now, from AIDS, which really didn’t care what color you are. Too bad we can’t approach homophobia the same way.
“Most of them are dead now, from AIDS, which really didn’t care what color you are. Too bad we can’t approach homophobia the same way.”
Well, the problem is that a virus can’t be held accountable for its actions. We may fear it, but all the rage in the world can’t sway its progression. We’re just food to it, and it’s a mindless thing that can’t be reprimanded or punished.
Bigoted communities are a different story. They can be shamed, intimidated, and challenged to the point where their excuses start to buckle. I wish friendship with good people was enough. But it just isn’t.
@44 He’s pointing out the hypocrisy of black people being able to point to problems within their community with no recriminations, while he was labeled a racist for saying almost the exact same thing.
Pointing out the hypocrisy in a black person getting a pass on charges of racism when that person says the same thing as a white person is only part of what he’s doing. He’s also using the race of the messenger to strengthen the message. Pointing out the hypocrisy of the messenger getting a pass would hardly be worth the pixels space.
Members of the Gay community can offer criticism about the Gay community that would get straight persons labeled a homophobe. Black people can say things about their community and each other that would be considered racist coming from the mouth of someone outside of the community. That’s neither new nor revelatory.
I don’t think that was the primary reason of his post. But I’ll be happy to be wrong on this.
Well, #47, he’s explained the primary reason for his post (see #33). You’ll either think he’s lying or you won’t, not much he can do about that.
And the message is already pretty clear; we don’t need black people to “strengthen” it. We need black people to help us change it. So, yes, in that sense, posting Mitchell’s article is constructive (though not many here seem to understand that).
fnarf @ 38 — Nate got the math wrong, never mind the interpretation.
The exit poll less than conclusive on the larger question, but points a swollen, gangrenous index of suspicion at AA voters.
If the universe of AA’s broke evenly Yes/No, the odds on 157 or more Yes responses in a sample of 224 (70% or more) are on the order of 1 in 10^9.
Adjustment for cluster sampling would pare these odds, but any live human who’s on candid speaking terms with a diverse sample of black folk will know there’s a problem here, that statistical agnosticism won’t remedy.
Nate earnestly and eagerly flubbed the maths for both seniors vs AA’s, and AA new voter effects.
Another angle: Postgrad was the only educ segment that voted No on Prop 8 overall.
You can’t use the N-word either Dan.