The headline: “Sand on roads worse than salt, environmentalists say.”
The reality: One environmentalist—Doug Myers of People for Puget Sound—said that a small amount of salt wouldn’t likely impact Puget Sound, but that it would harm other creeks and waterways in the Puget Sound region. Moreover, the group hasn’t taken any position on salt vs. sand.
So who are these multiple “environmentalists” who say salt is better than sand? Apparently, they exist only in Times reporters Susan Kelleher and Warren Cornwall’s overactive imaginations. The two reporters did manage to find one academic to support Frank Blethen’s bizarre pro-salting crusade—sort of. That academic, a professor in Ohio, said that dumping sand into the Sound would be worse than salting. But SDOT spokesman Rick Sheridan noted that the city actually sweeps up all the sand… meaning the Ohio professor was asked to respond to a question that has nothing to do with Seattle’s actual policy.
The reality, continued: Sand vs. salt is a decades-old debate with outspoken advocates on both sides, but the bottom line is that salt is an environmental toxin hazardous to aquatic life, and sand is considered effective in places, like Seattle, where long periods of snow pack are expected.
@50,
You write that like it’s an either/or question.
I think Erica likes to piss off the unglued by sounding like them.
“She want fisticuff? I give fisticuff!!!”
“It is the city of Detroit,” the 39-year-old Salazar said. “Everybody just stays home. Maybe if enough people drive down the street, the snow will be pushed down enough for me to drive on.” — http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article…
Hrm, this thread is dying.. Quick ECB.. To the Slogmobile! POST AGAIN!
WHAT THE FUUUUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
SALT IS A HAZARD TO MARINE LIFE???
YOU PEOPLE ARE UNBELIEVABLY DUMB. GET AN EDUCATION, SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF FRACTIONS AND CONCENTRATION. In this case as applied to the immeasurable salt concentration change that would result from Seattle pumping 100 storms’ worth of salt into the OCEAN. THE OCEAN!!!!
COME ON? ARE YOU THAT STUUUPID?????
I’m all for this, so long as it applies to actual Slog posts as well.
SALT IS IN MAH F00D!!! HOW DUM R U!!!! SRSLY SALT IS A HAZZERD?! ITS IN MAH FOOD N EVERYTHING I EAT!!! U LIBRULS IZ SOOOOOO STUPID!!!! U LIBRULZ IZ AFFRAID OF SALT!!! SALT IZ IN THE OSHAN ALREDDY!!! U DUM LIBRULS!!!
@39 – Can’t you see the flaw in your argument right there? It’s the same fallacy employed to justify nearly every problem our country is facing right now. “We realize that [action] is harmful to the system, but just a little bit won’t hurt,” “That little bit proved to be successful, a little bit more won’t hurt,” “We recognize the damage [action] has already created, but the system will correct itself, so a little more won’t hurt,” “The damage caused by [action] is quickly accumulating, but everybody is already used to the way things are, so we can’t stop now”
The argument was that a few days wouldn’t hurt. Now you say a few weeks wouldn’t hurt. Tell me, if by some freak chance the snow continues throughout January, into February and March, when would YOU call off the salting? How many weeks have you decided the Sound can handle before you decide it’s less important getting around the city then it is preserving the environment?
It’s not that I don’t sympathize with people not being able to get around. It’s just that I don’t buy the bullshit of “I’m an environmentalist, but…” any more than I buy “I’m not a homophobe, but…”. Just be honest that you think the environment takes a backseat to city functionality, and be done with it.
This is the problem with all political debates, shit, all debates period. Reality requires careful analysis and quantitation. Debating requires easily stated, overly simplistic opinions. So here’s a typical Slog debate:
Enviroweenie: No salt EVAR
Conservative Douchenozzle: Salt always and everywhere!!!1!1
Realist: Hey, maybe a little salt would be fine and good in extreme cases, especially if it happens no more than once every other year or so.
Enviroweenie: Realist wants to torture and maim cute kittens!
Conservative Douchnozzle: Realist wants us all to be stuck in our homes forevar!
E and CD: Fuck off, Realist!!
@58: You are invoking the classic logical fallacy: The slippery slope argument. There are shades of gray, people.
@1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 15, 16, 34, 46, 48, 50, 51, 52, 55, 56; @Frank Blethen, @desperate Times & PI reporters,
This is a once in 10 year storm. Stop whining and take some personal responsibility. You can expect the city to reasonably function 99.9% of the time, but not right now. It will be over soon enough and you can go back to looking for other people to blame for your misfortunes. But for now, prepare something warm to drink, relax, and shut the fuck up.
We do know that once you salt, you need to keep doing it to avoid an ice rink when it re-freezes. So salt does in fact start you on a slippery slope. The other slippery slope is that if the city invests in supplies and equipment for a once in 50 years storm, or even once in five years, how hard is it going to be to resist using it in the mild years? The Seattle Times front page editorial will begin with an inventory of all that stockpiled salt, all that money spent on idle trucks, and why aren’t we taking advantage of it? Think of the children, think of the disabled, blah blah…
Just indulging the weird belief that the roads must always be clear no matter what sets you on a slippery slope of unrealistic expectations. Just look at the kind of untethered entitlement the existence of a freeway bypassing downtown Seattle has created.
This slippery slope is not a fallacy at all.
@59: Totally! Reminds me of the Simpsons episode:
Candidate Kang: Abortions for all!
Audience: BOO!
Kang: Okay… Abortions for none!
Audience: BOO!
Kang: Hmmnn… Abortions for some, tiny American flags for others!
Audience: YAAY!!!
Erica, you WHORE
No salt please
Well, I guess this debate is over. Who needs a mayor of Seattle? Who needs a Seattle Department of Transportation?
After all, we have Elenchos @ 61, who has told us once again, with his usual unerring certainty, exactly what is going to happen, in all circumstances.
And now we know, because the oracle has told us, that applying salt is a slippery slope, which ALWAYS will lead to more and more salt, until the Sound is fucked forever, just like that first toke must inevitably lead to heroin addiction.
Erica, seriously how about you get your head out of your ass and stop making ignorant uneducated comments and keep your stupidity to yourself. It would be a waste of time for me to explain to you how badly wired your brain is. Because no matter how many valid points I make, you are incapable to admitting you are wrong. Discussing anything with a person who refuses to admit it when they are wrong is like talking to a brick wall.
The real problem isn’t salt or sand, but that virtually no one in this city is prepared for wintry weather. In other major northern cities, all cars switch to snow tires in October (often with studs). And they have chains. Or a 4-wheel drive rig. Or a 4-wheel drive rig with snow tires, studs and chains. The Post Office drives those funky jeeps; here, they drive rear-wheel drive minivans. So yes, with their salt and plows and all the residents equipped with capable winter equipment and the knowledge of how to drive in wintry conditions, there isn’t as much havoc on the roads in other cities. With our hills, our lack of local resident (or taxicab, or delivery truck) equipment and know-how, we’re going to suffer in major storms regardless of whatever the city spreads on the streets. Enjoy the snowy days, go without milk for a day or two (use powdered in recipes), make sure you have an extra week or two of meds in winter, help out your needy neighbors and work on your pioneer and/or native spirit. Merry Christmas!
Look, all I said was could we at least get a plow truck to clear the streets downtown over the course of a couple days. If i remember correctly, it only takes like a minute to plow a block (maybe a couple more, because you gotta find a place for that snow to go…My vote is right next to that Starbucks at westlake center.)
I am in Bremerton now, and their streets are pretty much clear, and on the ones that weren’t clear I saw a plowtruck go by. Now tell me, how does BREMERTON have this snow thing down better than Seattle?
Ivan, why are you so obsessed with me? So what if I disagree with your opinions? Just accept that one person sees things differently, and don’t get into one of your snits.
I like the comment @60 the best. (“for now, prepare something warm to drink, relax, and stfu”) All this will be over in a few days.
It is interesting to me… reading through these comments really strengthens my belief that the metropolis is the last place on earth I want to be when the shit really hits the fan. Hard to believe that there are people like @2 who assume that grocery stores will be “well stocked during a real emergency”
It’s not going to happen tomorrow, but within a few decades, there will be millions of climate change refugees all over the planet, trying to figure out how to live. Rather than relying on our bureaucracy to save us, it might be a good idea to learn some primitive skills, so we can save ourselves…
http://www.azdot.gov/CCPartnerships/Know…
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
Denver doesn’t use sand because of the air pollution it creates. They use salt. (Iowa apparently uses garlic salt) So which is worse? How do each damage the environment? I’m not convinced of either side without a decent analysis of both.
Erica’s snark (and that of this whole “news” paper) is a bit much, especially considering The Stranger has run plenty of misleading if not false articles before, including selective use of quotes. Take the sanctimonious bullshit down a notch.
proof positive. Stranger is made up of assholes. Fuck the mayor, replace him. salt the roads! We’re over it. This isn’t the average one day of snow a week.. we are living in slushfest 2008… it sucks to walk through, drive on streets that should have been plowed.. .This is our hurricane Katrina… no response. I dare say. what the fuck really happens in an earthquake? Can I really count on the city to help in anyway? Stock up on canned foods.
Now that’s indignation! This is Seattle’s Hurricane Katrina!
Won’t somebody please think of the Children?!
@75: are you a former seattleite? I’m confused as to why this is a big issue for you. The “slippery slope” argument you keep using is at best a bad rhetorical device and at worst a logical fallacy. You act like Seattle will keep salting into the summer once it gets “hooked.” We should salt when it’s necessary and use other methods when it’s not. If SDOT doesn’t have the wisdom to know the difference than they need better leadership. Anyway, happy holidays.
You need only read Erica’s last sentence to appreciate how religious an issue this is for her. And by religious, I mean, “Impervious to evidence from any of the five senses.”
How you getting around in this “effective in places” sanding strategy, Erica? Me — not so well.
@77,
She’s been telecommuting.
You know how you can tell? Every other post hasn’t been a privileged screed about how much Metro has made her life a living hell.
(I’ll go back to trying to be more charitable to my fellow humans on X-Mas day, now….)
@58:
Just be honest that you think the environment takes a backseat to city functionality, and be done with it.
This is a bullshit statement. By that token, police cars shouldn’t respond quickly to crimes and Medic One shouldn’t rush to save someone with a medical emergency. Heck, we shouldn’t have police cars or Medic One by your logic.
I’m a firm believer that cities are a great place to live for both people and the environment — when they’re done right. And doing it right means putting the citizens first. Do it wrong, and suburbia starts looking real good in comparison. But for smug sanctimonious pricks like Chris in Tampa, they think people should be shoehorned into cities without any regard for quality of life. Asshats like him made Lynnwood and Kent what they are today.
@68:
The difference between Bremerton and Seattle is that Bremerton apparently puts working for its citizens first, and not chasing some mythical standard of world-class bullshit. BTW, is Bremerton’s mayor still the ex-mayor of Bellevue?
Police and ambulance service is a part of city functions. The well-being of Puget Sound is not. I’m not being self-righteous here, I’m facilitating dialogue, because from my point of view, you don’t understand the implications of what you’re recommending. This is evidenced by the fact that you think salting the roads is in the same class as police and ambulance service, which it is clearly not. All I’m saying is that most of the people here view getting around the city and resuming business as a priority above keeping the environment as clean as possible. I’m not saying these people don’t care about the environment, and I’m not saying they want everything in the Sound to die, but I am saying that they should stop referring to themselves as environmentalists, because they are not.
@76 – This isn’t a big issue for me, as I’ve been sweating all day. I’ve never been to Seattle, but I consider myself at least somewhat familiar with the issues you face, as I’ve been reading Slog for years now. I’m merely trying to clarify the issue as I see it. It’s not really a slippery slope fallacy when you look at it in context. Your city has been bickering over what to do about a crumbling bridge for years. People constantly complain about how slow and unwilling the city is to react to pressing issues, even on this very one. I’m merely pointing out that if you start salting, you’re probably not going to stop for a very long time, whether it continues snowing every five years, or starts to snow six times a year. Why would you when salt works so well, and when you’ve already justified your actions by saying a little bit more won’t hurt? The Economy was booming on paper for 6 of the past 8 years, despite all the holes and structural faults. Industry was awesome for over a century before it hit a tipping point and started to fuck up the planet beyond repair.
If you start salting your snow, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that it won’t affect the environment in any significant way. It’s just as reasonable to assume that it will affect the environment significantly, but nobody will notice, because they’re convinced that nothing is wrong.
@80: dude. You don’t live in Seattle. You don’t live anywhere it snows. I’m guessing you’re not an environmental scientist. Your opinion is almost completely uninformed by experience or education.. Please, please, please shut up.
Isn’t there a local blog for you to play asshole devils advocate on? Can’t you share your wisdom with Tampa?
@80:
Police and ambulance service is a part of city functions. The well-being of Puget Sound is not.
Yet you’re arguing that the city shouldn’t use salt in this situation because it would affect Puget Sound.
FAIL
All I’m saying is that most of the people here view getting around the city and resuming business as a priority above keeping the environment as clean as possible.
OK, then, how far do we go to make sure people not get around the city and not resume business, then, since the environment is such a priority? Slippery slopes can go two ways.
You seem remarkably ignorant of what I find to be an interesting paradox: Those societies that are the most well-off are also the the societies most concerned about the environment. You might find that abhorrent; I find it instructive.
I’m not saying these people don’t care about the environment, and I’m not saying they want everything in the Sound to die, but I am saying that they should stop referring to themselves as environmentalists, because they are not.
Perhaps you could share with us benighted mortals why we should take you as the authority on who is and isn’t an environmentalist.
I consider myself to be an environmentalist. If that means I’m pissing off a poseur like you, than that’s just the organic cherry on the top of the BSE-free sundae.
I’ve never been to Seattle,
Now there’s a shock.
but I consider myself at least somewhat familiar with the issues you face, as I’ve been reading Slog for years now.
You’re familiar with the Capitol Hill pretentious hipster take on everything. Your statement is every bit as silly as if I said I knew everything there is about the Tampa/St. Petersburg area from reading an Ybor City blog.
Your city has been bickering over what to do about a crumbling bridge for years. People constantly complain about how slow and unwilling the city is to react to pressing issues, even on this very one.
Oh, congratulations. After years of reading Slog, you’ve managed to grasp one very basic fact about Seattle! Hooray!
I’m merely pointing out that if you start salting, you’re probably not going to stop for a very long time, whether it continues snowing every five years, or starts to snow six times a year. Why would you when salt works so well, and when you’ve already justified your actions by saying a little bit more won’t hurt?
And you know this, because … ? Oh, that’s right, you’ve never been here — but you read Slog! Hooray!
No one with any sense is arguing that we use it for every snow storm. Pay attention.
The Economy was booming on paper for 6 of the past 8 years, despite all the holes and structural faults.
Agreed, but what the hell does that have to do with how Seattle should deal with protracted snow storms?
Industry was awesome for over a century before it hit a tipping point and started to fuck up the planet beyond repair.
Oh, dear me. Are you one of those people jacking off to The Collapse Of Society As We Know It? More reason for me to snort at you for the fool that you are, if so.
If you start salting your snow, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that it won’t affect the environment in any significant way. It’s just as reasonable to assume that it will affect the environment significantly, but nobody will notice, because they’re convinced that nothing is wrong.
I’d say bet on the former. It sure would be a better bet than betting on our football teams.
@81:
I don’t mind having Chris around. I’d rather have him arguing here than in Florida. I take that position on purely tactical grounds: Florida will turn back to red before Capitol Hill does.
Jesus Christ. I’m a smug sanctimonious prick? I’ve never been to your dear town, so I can’t possibly comprehend the complexities of an issue that you’re dealing with? Reading Slog for a few years provides such a biased account of such a small segment of the city that I might as well profess to know absolutely nothing about the city at all? Do my posts drip with an arrogance about how much more I know about this than you? Because I can assure you, not a single word I’ve said has indicated I felt that way
Maybe it’s just because this is an ECB post, and people just go apeshit fundamentalist whenever she says anything, but I don’t remember this issue being as cut and dry for your side as you seem to act. In fact, your city still doesn’t seem to give a shit what you think.
I am not trying to sell you the Truth, here. I don’t have a personal stake in this. You do, and everybody else does. Hey, look at that, someone who’s never been to Seattle, might just have the wherewithal to consider the problem dispassionately.
It’s amazing how personal you consider this. You’re clearly taking offense to things I was never even addressing to you. I could care less about what happens to the Sound, because guess what, I don’t have to ever look at it. I don’t even look favorable upon Environmentalists. I was criticizing the people in this very thread who professed to being pro-environment, but don’t actually give a shit about it when it directly interferes with their schedule. Is that you? If not, I wasn’t fucking talking to you, and you can stop putting words in my mouth, thank you very much.
I don’t know how I can put this more clearly. I’m not saying that you or anyone else wants to dump millions of gallons of salt into the Sound. I’m not telling you that you’re retarded. Hell, with how little the City is listening to your moaning and bitching, I don’t think I have to worry about you dumping a teaspoon of salt in the water. But you’re misinterpreting the slippery slope fallacy. It is entirely possible that you could salt too much, all the while thinking that you’re not salting that much at all. Unless I’m severely mistaken — and if I am, so is your precious City — this is the opinion of the majority of legitimate, qualified, intelligent Seattle Environmental Scientists. And if it’s no problem to you that the Sound is not as pristine 10 years from now as it is today, then shut the fuck up already. I was never even talking directly to you.
For the record, despite being an completely independent cultural section of a much larger, incredibly monotonous city, you would gain a ridiculous amount of insight about Tampa by reading a good Ybor City Blog for a few years. Because it’s part of the city, and is therefore rather steeped in it. I’m sorry you cannot say the same about some particular neighborhoods in Seattle.
@83:
Jesus Christ. I’m a smug sanctimonious prick?
Yes.
I’ve never been to your dear town, so I can’t possibly comprehend the complexities of an issue that you’re dealing with?
It would help. I’m certainly not going to pretend I’m an expert on how Tampa should handle hurricanes, and I sure as hell wouldn’t pretend to be on a lofty perch and tell people that they’re this and that because what they did didn’t suit my fancy.
Reading Slog for a few years provides such a biased account of such a small segment of the city that I might as well profess to know absolutely nothing about the city at all?
Well, it did take you years of reading to figure out that Seattle city government is incompetent. I’ll let that stand for itself.
Do my posts drip with an arrogance about how much more I know about this than you?
Yes. It would be one thing if you did know more, but you don’t.
Because I can assure you, not a single word I’ve said has indicated I felt that way
Really? You certainly had me fooled.
In fact, your city still doesn’t seem to give a shit what you think.
Sadly, you’re absolutely correct on that. They’re more interested in impressing world-class poseurs like you.
I am not trying to sell you the Truth, here.
This is where Bill Cosby comes in and says “Rriiiiiiggghttt!”
I don’t have a personal stake in this. You do, and everybody else does. Hey, look at that, someone who’s never been to Seattle, might just have the wherewithal to consider the problem dispassionately.
And you might also be completely clueless about it, too.
I could care less about what happens to the Sound, because guess what, I don’t have to ever look at it. I don’t even look favorable upon Environmentalists.
Yet you presume to know who is an environmentalist and who isn’t. How convenient.
I was criticizing the people in this very thread who professed to being pro-environment, but don’t actually give a shit about it when it directly interferes with their schedule.
This is where I point out that you never answered my question about how inconvenienced citizens have to be for the sake of the environment. Which you’ve said you don’t care about. So why are you here, again?
oversensitive emo whining snipped
And if it’s no problem to you that the Sound is not as pristine 10 years from now as it is today, then shut the fuck up already.
Here’s the deal: As a liberal, I want my government to work. I want to work effectively on behalf of all of its citizens, from Bill Gates down to those down on their luck.
You simply cannot argue that the City of Seattle has performed effectively over the past week. You. Cannot. Do. That. At least, not without making yourself into a bigger fool than you look already. I know I can’t defend Seattle government to my friends and relatives in other parts of this state, and I gave up trying to do that years ago. (Yes. There are other parts to Washington state besides Seattle. And that snarky comment wasn’t directed just at you; but at a lot of fools on Capitol Hill as well.)
Now, when this government screws up, as it has, it opens up the door of opportunity at the ballot box for people who don’t give a damn about what Puget Sound is like 10 years from now. I want Puget Sound to be more pristine then than now, but there are people who don’t give a damn about that, and Greg Nickels and company just handed folks like Tim Eyman a whole bunch of ammo. (Google Tim Eyman. He’s an anti-tax crusader in this state.)
Now, whether they can do anything with that ammo is another question, as the local GOP is so absolutely incompetent that they really should be on the Duck tours: “And here, we have the local Republican headquarters, where they regularly get owned by idiots like Greg Nickels and Ron Sims!”
I don’t see any indication that the local GOP is going to find the Fountain of Clue anytime soon, but that’s not something I really want to bet the future on.
Every time they use salt all along the rivers in BC …
nothing happens.
Yeah, you heard me.
Now – GET A LIFE!
With friends like ECB, the truth doesn’t need enemies.
You have the poorest reading comprehension of anyone professing to be world-class, anywhere.
You also have the personality of 14 year old boy, specifically me as a 14 year old boy. On the internet and determined to show everybody just how smart I am. You even come complete with the ability to address each point individually, ignoring the context of the argument as a whole.
Being demonstrably correct about everything because people stop arguing their point of view with you never gets old, does it?
@88:
I thought I’d brought up a serious point about the importance of having a government that works, but apparently you’ve decided to ignore that in favor of nailing yourself to a cross. Go right ahead. I’ve got other things to do.
Oh, you mean that one reasonable thing you finally got around to saying at the end of all that other bullshit? Yeah, that would have been nice to hear at the beginning of your argument.
It’s still a silly application of a real part of politics, but that’s the sort of flawed thinking you get when a person thinks someone needs a firsthand, visceral experience of something in order to comment on it
Chris spends his time on this blog despite living in Tampa because Tampa is a world-class shithole. And I say that as someone who had the misfortune to spend some time there, having relatives in that city.
Chris, doesn’t Creative Loafing have a blog where you can spout your uninformed opinions about the important Tampa issues?
Oh, is it your opinion that I would also be uninformed about things happening in my own hometown?
As it happens, I resent you calling Tampa a world-class shithole without you spending more than just some time there. You’d have to live in Tampa for at least as long as I have to know anything at all about just how shitty and awful it is. Isn’t that how it works?