Yeah, that’s the real problem in America today—the way the gays have managed to completely silence Christians. Can you even recall the last time you heard a peep out of an American Christian? Remember how the gays drove Mike Huckabee from public life? Whatever happened to Rick Warren anyway?

Sigh.

Go and watch the video, marvel at the awesome power of the gay rights lobby, and then take their “Family Values Survey.” (Please note: hating and fearing gay people is the only value the Christians behind this survey are interested in.) Unfortunately there’s not a “who gives a fuck?” option for the first question (“Do you believe the Bible condemns homosexuality as sin?”), so just vote “undecided.” And to this woman…

e3cc/1234366785-usedtobegay.jpg

…I’d like to say this: the gays are perfectly willing to tolerate your story—”tolerate” meaning “put up with” not “be delighted by”—it’s your haircut that we can’t abide. You can be an ex-lesbian without having to have your hair done by the same woman who frosts the cakes down at the IGA. Thanks to Slog tipper Sean.

292 replies on “Shhhhhh… We’re Silencing Christians…”

  1. Loveschild: Thank you for understand the love and respect I have for my family. We believe differently. Neither your nor my reasons were able to change each others minds. Hopefully, we have caused one another to think and reflect. I disagree about your theory that love is obstructing my ability to have any “reason based pragmatism on the subject”. My convictions do not arise from anyone one individual they come from my own heart and mind. They come from my own willingness to question, in fact they extend from my relationship with Jesus Christ, my work as a molecualar biologist, my willingness to learn from others, and my own life story. We can not tell each others hearts or minds what to believe, we each form our own convictions. You see too many differences between heterosexual and homosexual marriages and families, and I see how very much alike we all are. You believe differently, and I can accept that. I wish you well.

  3. To get back to the topic of the original post:

    It disturbs me that there seems to be a big “Christians vs. supporters of gay marriage” theme going on in so many threads.

    Not all Christians oppose gay marriage (many have posted intelligent arguments here) and not all opponents of gay marriage are Christian, or even religious.

    The problem is that it becomes too easy to start referring to “Christians” when in fact we are talking about a diverse group of people who have one thing in common: an obsession with keeping same sex couples from having the right to marry.

    There are many other people, (Christian, agnostic, etc.) who aren’t completely comfortable with the idea of gay marriage, but who recognize that this is not the most important issue in the world. Doing something about the climate change crisis and world poverty MIGHT be a bit more pressing. I believe that many of the people in this category will eventually come to be more comfortable with the idea of same sex marriage, but they need some time to get used to it. Making blanket statements about “Christians” will only antagonize this group.

    Proposition 8 is a lost battle, but it represents a battle, not the war. Eventually, more and more people will come to realize that the arguments against same-sex marriage are full of fallacies (plenty on this thread to choose from), and will start becoming more accepting.

    Although I am not pleased with the results of the Proposition 8 election, it was up to the people of California to make a choice, and they voted. Now, unless there is evidence of election fraud, let’s stop pointing fingers at different groups in California (Mom, he’s picking on me!) and focus on how to do better next time.

  5. Why is it that SOME Christians and SOME homosexuals love to over generalize and lump ALL individuals in with two categories of over zealous retards.

  6. No idea. Maybe, some prefer to argue in generalizations, rather than address specific points or a specific person?

  7. 271: I agree with your last paragraph, the blame game needs to stop.

    I also find that zealotry from both homosexuals and Christians don’t allow for a reasonable conclusion on this subject. I find that once this two groups are kept out of the constructive decision making the people in the middle as it has occurred many times before will always end up making the best pragmatist decision on this subject.

  9. Thank you kim. Nice to read you today also.

    By the way, You wrote that you were a Christian, If you don’t mind me asking, If you’re a regular church attendant, what type of scriptures does your Pastor use to teach the views you hold on homosexuality?

  10. Loveschild,

    The church I attend and I both use the NIV. It may help you to go up and read earlier posts 135,138,140,141,142,146,149,189 and 199, they are a conversation between a poster named The Truth (Truth for short), and a single comment by T.K.and myself. It may explain my being a Red Letter Evangelical (or the other names some use to describe us as Evangelical Lefts or Progressive Evangelicals). I don’t really care for any of the names. You’ll see that I also read the scriptures in their original texts, ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek.

    I’ll be back much later if you have more questions.

  11. My only question would be if you can be a Red Letter Evangelical and still want to protect the family by opposing same sex marriage. I consider myself to be ideologically and politically on the left but I don’t support that. Are there many like me within your denomination and are they able to freely express their views on this subject?

  13. Loveschild,

    I have never heard either the subject of homesexuality or same-sex marriages addressed in my present church from the pastor. My previous church supported your position. We left that church, because it wasn’t outward focused and because they disagreed with my supporting women who divorce due to escape domestic violence, in addition to their position on homosexuality. When I left my position in molecular biology, and I became trained to work with DV through a Christian ministry called ARMS. (Not, that you needed that information about me, but it would make sense with my previous posts on how my convictions are formed.)

    Best wishes.

  14. Loveschild,

    I am friends with many who are like you, liberal but want to keep marriage a sacrament. You seem like a kind person. I would support your right to speak your beliefs in my church any day. You have a right to your convictions, especially when we disagree.

  16. Loveschild,

    I guess you can say from all the above responses, that it is not my pastor who teaches me on homosexuality. It’s the Holy Spirit. Not that many years ago, I had a conviction more like yours. By this I mean, keeping marriage a sacrament with a yes on civil unions. It wasn’t until an athiest friend, who I deeply respect, told me that she hated my faith because it means I would reject my own child if they were homosexual. Hearing that was like being punched in my gut. So, I began praying about it and reading the NIV, NLT and Stroms Concordance. I started with the story of Sodom, and with each crossreference the story reveals itself. The sin of Sodom isn’t that they were homosexual, it was that they were inhospitable, liars, adulters, they perverted justice and denied mercy and care to the poor, orphaned, widowed and oppressed. God had made up his mind to destroy Sodom long before the angels met Lot. This awakened the questioner in me. It is I who choose to search scriptures in their native Hebrew and Greek. I’m not alone as you can imagine, many theologians and scholars have been doing it. Study upon the scriptures applied to homosexuality has been going on for about 25 years. When I read them in their original form I cannot in good faith say they condemn homosexuality or same-sex unions. So, it is not just my hearts desire and love, it is also my study, and prayer life that forms my opinion. So maybe, I am a little pragmatic.

  17. You’re kind and good hearted but based on your responses I wouldn’t consider you a pragmatist. Well intentioned, yes. There doesn’t seem to be any desire of malice in you. But in these matters that can prove disastrous for the future of the country, one cannot let the heart overrule reason because it can end destroying the fabric of society.

  18. If you saw the video, then surely you cannot think what goes on in Folsom is something that needs to be encouraged. There’s nothing sacred about it.

  19. Love and equal rights for all citizens will not destroy the fabric of society. This country will remain, it will continue to grow and evolve. My heart does not overrule reason. My conscience is before God, for it is he who I will have to give account to. All believers are called to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with God (Micah 6:8).

    Good talking to you, Loveschild.

  21. The video from silencingchristians, the scenes from Folsom street. If there ever was one Sodom and Gomorrah in modern times then that’s it.

    I respect your conscience being before God. But Jesus also said that give to Cesar what’s Cesar’s. While I hope that you end in the good graces of God, I know that a Lindsay Lohan and a Samantha Ronson are destructive for what our God intended for his creation. I’m not that religious but I know that society will not be able to stand all the ills recognizing those unions equally with that of heterosexual couples like yours and mine will bring to our children and to an already fragile society at large.

  22. I thought it was the Silencing the Christians, so I began rewatching it. Yeah, I find the Folsom street fair distasteful, and over the top. But, they don’t represent the entire homosexual population. Just like Jerry Falwall doesn’t represent every Christian either.

  23. We’re going to have to agree to disagree as we have before. Thanks for hoping I end up in the good graces of God, you don’t sound so sure.

  25. I did the stupid poll. I used a made-up name and an email address I rarely used. But then I went to this email provider and blocked all of the groups that were sending me anti-gay propaganda.
    I believe Coretta Scott King supported gay rights. Her husband had openly-gay men working for him.

  27. I appreciate the level of conversation between Kim in Portland and Loveschild, but Loveschild I have to take real exception to your comment in 286 about there being “nothing sacred” in the video of the Folsom Street Fair and comparing the event to Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Kim’s been taking the high road; I may go a tad lower.

    Full disclosure: I’ve been to the Folsom Street Fair several times, including 2007 and 2008, along with about 300,000 other folks of all sexualities and persuasions. I didn’t watch the video so I don’t know what it shows but I’m sure it’s all real.

    Now, here’s the caveat: as Dan points out in another SLOG entry about movies, the Religious Right lies, they distort, or they disinform. Without wasting my time watching the video, I as an attendee/participant at Folsom can assert that:

    Yes, the Fair happens on a public street. But it’s a street that has been closed to all traffic, including pedestrians. And the closures extend at least half a block up the sidestreets.

    No one can enter the sequestered area without passing through gates (where a donation is solicited) but free access is allowed. The donation gives you a sticker that entitles you to a discount on any booze, should you choose to indulge in alcohol.

    I don’t know if there’s a minimum age limit to enter, but I’ve never seen any children there.

    My point is that there is essentially no way for someone of whatever age or disposition to “accidentally” encounter the Folsom Street Fair. You’re either there because you want to be there, whether to enjoy or to go undercover to “expose the depravity”.

    So take whatever is in that video with a very large dose of salt: no “innocents” are being exposed to this “depravity” on a “public street”. everybody who is there wants to be there.

    Which leads to my bigger point and my descent into a lower level of discourse:

    You seem to be obsessed with “spirituality” and “sacredness”.

    My blunt response is: I don’t fucking care, and go blow.

    Wake-up call: There are a lot of us who don’t give two dimes about spirituality, sacredness, and all the other values you hold dear.

    Folsom Street upsets you? Don’t go. But don’t you fucking dare try to shut it down because us kinksters trigger your ick-meter.

    This is what “live and let live” is all about. This is why a lot of us get sick & tired of squeamish religious folks – however well-intentioned – telling us that we can’t do what we enjoy just because it grosses you out.

    I can accept that you’re a good person, a good liberal who means well. But like too many good liberals who mean well, you’re still willing to insert yourself into other peoples’ lives – and their pursuit of happiness – just because you get the ickies.

    Get the fuck over yourself.

    And I mean that in a kind and caring way.

    Really — I do.

  28. I don’t know, I think it is fascinating to see their daily surveys. It helps me see their perspective, even when I don’t agree with them.

  29. Jared @ 295

    Thanks for your perspective. I just wanted to clarify my comment about the Follsom Street Fair being distasteful and over the top @ 290. It isn’t because it is kinky, or even what appeared to be a parody of the last supper, but the whipping scene. I have a fear of being hit, let’s just say I have been hit too many times in my life to think it pleasurable. And, I know that’s my issue and many people don’t share my perspective. Hope you don’t think I was judging you or the people on the video, because I wasn’t.

    Thanks again for commenting.

  30. Kim in Portland @ 297

    I understand your concerns and thanks for your comments. I’m sorry for whatever abuse you experienced and in that context I understand why aspects of the Folsom Street Fair disturb you.

    And I’m assuming that you understand the purpose of the event, and that nobody is there involuntarily. The people who shot the footage went there *knowing* what they would find, which IMHO puts them on a level of hypocrisy that borders on violation of the commandment about bearing false witness (again, see Dan’s posting about movie grosses). And this in not a new phenomenon – they’ve used the same distortions/misrepresenations/exaggerations/semantic tricks/lies for decades.

    Amd people like Loveschild haven’t caught on.

    The primary recipient of my posting was intended to be Loveschild, who doesn’t seem to be aware that the Folsom Street Fair is a celebration of leather/BDSM/kink, and that the attendees are there voluntarily, despite what the video implies (and again, I haven’t watched it). S/he seems to be so hung up on the spiritual/sacred that real life (especially when it is about sex) is distasteful. You seem – to my ex-/anti-religious eyes – to be much more grounded in reality.

    Plus, s/he doesn’t seem to realize that “pragmatic” doesn’t mean what s/he thinks it does.

    If you’re not already tuned into it, you may want to check out slacktivist – your level of discourse would be welcomed there.

  31. Hey Jared @ 298,

    Thanks for writing back. I knew that your comments were directed towards Loveschild.

    You assume right about my basic understanding of the Folsom Street Fair, I didn’t buy the narrators comments that it was a homosexual only event intended to intimidate Christians and make fun of them. I never thought any person was there involuntarily either, in fact I am betting their were even Christians participating. So, I do appreciate your educating me about it.

    Thanks, too, for the support about my past. I was a child, so it was a long time ago. My husband has some interest in “light” BDSM, and I’m willing to explore that (obviously with ground rules stated well in advance). Hence, my appreciation for your explanation.

    I’ve never heard of slacktivist. What exactly is it? How does one check it out?

  32. I don’t understand the idea that gays are being denied thir rights, they have the same rights as anyone else, they can marry anyone they want just like anyone else as long as that person is of the opposite gender.

  33. I don’t understand the idea that gays are being denied thir rights, they have the same rights as anyone else, they can marry anyone they want just like anyone else as long as that person is of the opposite gender.

  34. I don’t understand the idea that gays are being denied thir rights, they have the same rights as anyone else, they can marry anyone they want just like anyone else as long as that person is of the opposite gender.

  35. I don’t understand the idea that gays are being denied thir rights, they have the same rights as anyone else, they can marry anyone they want just like anyone else as long as that person is of the opposite gender.

  36. I don’t understand the idea that gays are being denied thir rights, they have the same rights as anyone else, they can marry anyone they want just like anyone else as long as that person is of the opposite gender.

  37. Watch out… The gays are going to take over the world and they’re starting with equality! What crap. Next time I hear a Christian say “agenda,” I’m going to punch myself in the face.

  38. 1. The first and most important consideration is that God said that it is an abomination for men to lay with men and that those who do so would have blood on their hands and their life would be forfeit. Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    2. The scientists have discovered that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed exactly in the manner that the Bible said it was. If you look at a satellite photo of Sodom and Gomorrah, you will see that a while dots shows up around these two cities, evidence of the intense amount of ash covering them. Also, perfectly round balls of 98% pure Sulphur (brimstone) are embedded in the remaining structures. First of all, there is nowhere on earth that Sulphur is found in such high concentrations, the most is 40% and that only when there is geo-thermal activity, of which there is none in that area. Also, Sulphur is NEVER found as a round ball. It was compared to every single piece of Sulphur at the Smithsonian Institute and none of them match this kind of Sulphur, either in Shape or color. The evidence is clear that something out of the ordinary happened over there and the few remaining structures show signs of intense heat and melting. In other words, Sodom and Gomorrah was “DESTROYED” and then PRESERVED as a reminder to the people as to what can happened when you live outside the will of God. This lie the gay community is telling is that it was destroyed because of a lack of hospitality is bunk. The words clearly says that ALL the men were homosexual and wanted to have sex with the two angels that God had sent.

    3 Back in 1973, gay activists led a hate campaign against the psychiatrists because up until then, doctor with years of clinical experience and who made observations and assessments, classified homosexuality as a deviant,(Psychosexual Disorder). Because of the hate campaign, they were able to intimidate the medical community into deleting the diagnosis. Not based on new clinical observations or new information but base on VIOLENT activism against the psychiatric community.

    The fact is, gay marriage is wrong and against the will of God and the people of God need to speak up or they will be teaching it to our children.

    I guess when little boys come home and want to have gay weddings with their little male friends; maybe then parents will see the dangers here,

    WHERE ARE THE PASTORS, MINISTERS AND PEOPLE OF GOD TO SPEAK OUT AGAINT THIS?

    Homosexuals need help, they need God…just as we all do. I thank God that he saved my wretched sinful soul many years ago. He wants to save you too. There’s a good website that I recommend for homosexuals wanting help at http://www.hopeforhomosexuals.com

  39. 1. The first and most important consideration is that God said that it is an abomination for men to lay with men and that those who do so would have blood on their hands and their life would be forfeit. Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    2. The scientists have discovered that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed exactly in the manner that the Bible said it was. If you look at a satellite photo of Sodom and Gomorrah, you will see that a while dots shows up around these two cities, evidence of the intense amount of ash covering them. Also, perfectly round balls of 98% pure Sulphur (brimstone) are embedded in the remaining structures. First of all, there is nowhere on earth that Sulphur is found in such high concentrations, the most is 40% and that only when there is geo-thermal activity, of which there is none in that area. Also, Sulphur is NEVER found as a round ball. It was compared to every single piece of Sulphur at the Smithsonian Institute and none of them match this kind of Sulphur, either in Shape or color. The evidence is clear that something out of the ordinary happened over there and the few remaining structures show signs of intense heat and melting. In other words, Sodom and Gomorrah was “DESTROYED” and then PRESERVED as a reminder to the people as to what can happened when you live outside the will of God. This lie the gay community is telling is that it was destroyed because of a lack of hospitality is bunk. The words clearly says that ALL the men were homosexual and wanted to have sex with the two angels that God had sent.

    3 Back in 1973, gay activists led a hate campaign against the psychiatrists because up until then, doctor with years of clinical experience and who made observations and assessments, classified homosexuality as a deviant,(Psychosexual Disorder). Because of the hate campaign, they were able to intimidate the medical community into deleting the diagnosis. Not based on new clinical observations or new information but base on VIOLENT activism against the psychiatric community.

    The fact is, gay marriage is wrong and against the will of God and the people of God need to speak up or they will be teaching it to our children.

    I guess when little boys come home and want to have gay weddings with their little male friends; maybe then parents will see the dangers here,

    WHERE ARE THE PASTORS, MINISTERS AND PEOPLE OF GOD TO SPEAK OUT AGAINT THIS?

    Homosexuals need help, they need God…just as we all do. I thank God that he saved my wretched sinful soul many years ago. He wants to save you too. There’s a good website that I recommend for homosexuals wanting help at http://www.hopeforhomosexuals.com

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