I’m very confused and I hope you can set me straight. I married my wife several months ago after dating her for three years. Things are generally excellent except for one problem: when my wife gets drunk, she gets crazy flirtatious with everyone. She’ll get very close to people, repeatedly touch them or hold hands, dance closely, etc. She’ll do this whether I’m present or not. A couple of times I thought it went too far, and I told her while of course she can talk to other people without me, there is a line that makes me uncomfortable. I say it could lead to something that she will regret later. She claims that this is just harmless friendliness/flirtation, and she would never let anything happened.
Well, as it turns out, something did happen. After another party where she was dancing, hugging, and getting kissed on the cheek by a woman I think was a lesbian, after slow dancing with a different woman, we discussed the issue again. During the ensuing argument it came out that in year two of our relationship she was high and dancing at a club with several gay men, some of whom have been her close friends for several years, and she French kissed at least one of the friends for several seconds.
She swears this was an isolated incident and that she had never kissed these friends before. She says that she did not and still does not have any sexual feelings for these men (or the women from the party). She says that while she acknowledges a line was crossed (which is why she didn’t tell me when it happend), she says it was just a very intense but regrettable “friendship moment” between close friends who were high on drugs. She says this gay man is not bi.
So, now I’m grappling with three issues: 1. Did she cheat? Although we’ve never talked about the rules concerning kissing gay friends, I think we both know she crossed a line (there was tongue). 2. How much did she betray me by not telling me until after we were married when she knew it would be an issue? 3. Am I being a selfish prude by caring about either her aggressive flirting or this kiss? She is very contrite about everything and wishes none of it had happened, and swears she will calm down the flirtation. Should I forgive her and move on, or should I run the hell away before its too late?
Seriously Troubled Here
My response after the jump…
1. No.
2. Your wife’s failure to disclose a single drugged-up, blissed-out, pre-marriage-ceremony kiss shared with a gay dude on a dance floor—even a kiss with tongue—does not constitute a “betrayal.” It constitutes an omission.
3. Yes, ATH, you are being a selfish prude and, yes, you should forgive her.
The aggressive flirting could be a problem—I mean, if she really is flirting all that aggressively. I’m wary of taking your characterization of her behavior at face value, STH, as a man who regards tongue kissing a gay friend a year before the wedding as grounds for divorce is obviously incapable of being rational about his wife’s interactions with other people. Where you see getting too near, dancing too closely, and being too friendly, a slightly less paranoid/controlling spouse might see normal human interaction and innocently flirtatious behavior. But if she admits to the flirting and agrees that it’s a problem—if for no other reason than it bothers you—and she’s willing to tamp it down for your sake, you should absolutely “forgive her and move on,” by which I mean, “YOU SHOULD CEASE BEING SUCH A FUCKING DOUCHEBAG about 1. the kiss and 2. the flirting and 3. the fucking kiss already.
All that said, ATH, I’m not sure your wife should forgive you. It sounds like you’ve been an insufferable prick about that stupid kiss and the flirting. I wouldn’t want to be married to man who claimed to love me but couldn’t forgive me for something so trifling as a meaningless kiss and I’m not sure I’m doing your wife any favors here by talking you off the ledge. Someone who can’t forgive is hardly husband material. A successful marriage is basically an endless cycle of wrongs committed, apologies offered, and forgiveness granted, ATH, all leavened by the occasional orgasm. If you can’t forgive her for this, ATH, then you’re not cut out for marriage. She’s the one who might want to run away before it’s too late.
“A successful marriage is basically an endless cycle of wrongs committed, apologies offered, and forgiveness granted, ATH, all leavened by the occasional orgasm.”
Best description of a successful marriage ever.
I knew you’d get this one exactly right.
Dan’s advice is sound but he has overreacted. The guy did nothing to merit the lashing that Dan dishes out at the end. He’s a bit jealous, and that’s NORMAL and not DOUCHEBAGGERY. Writing a letter like this is a sure sign that he’s dealing with that, so Dan’s a bit of an asshole to call him an asshole.
Still, spot on advice.
How do I find this woman? The drinks are on me.
BTW, she did absolutely nothing wrong.
STH/ATH…they’re both assholes.
This is where I kind of like having your responses after the jump — it lends a little drama to reading these posts (e.g., “this guy sounds like a douchebag to me, I wonder if Dan will think so too or if I’m off base here… click… yep, douchebag”).
In addition to everything else, what creeped me out a little was “I married my wife several months ago.” What’s with that language – “I married my wife”? Don’t people say “my wife and I got married” or “my wife and I have been married for several months”? It makes it sound like it was him doing the marrying, not like, you know, getting married is a thing that two people do together. Not to psychoanalyze based on one sentence or anything.
Wow. What reason does he have to think this other women is a lesbian? Cheek-kissing and dancing is normal drunk-girls-at-a-party behavior. As a girl who likes to get drunk at parties, I don’t understand how she would even consider marrying a dude who would flip his lid over something like that.
GodDAMN, some people are uptight.
Some people are more flirtatious than others, and kissing people –even (*gasp!*) with tongue– can be friendship-reinforcing, exciting, or a welcome change from your partner’s familiar tongue action. But if this does not lead to the naked mambo in bed, then WTF already?
Sounds like ATH has some jealousy issues that he needs to (a) investigate more deeply (“Why am I feeling jealous, exactly?”), and (b) should seek actual functional confirmation that his jealousies are unfounded (“Wifey, I need to know you won’t fuck them/leave me/etc.”)
The basic question in ATH’s letter that goes unaddressed: Why does your wife’s flirting bother you in the first place? Follow this with: Does the bulk of the evidence support her claim that it won’t lead to adultery?
Speaking personally, I think it’s quite fun to watch my partner flirting and smooching trusted people. But then I trust her completely to maintain good boundaries, realistic boundaries.
Asking your wife to dramatically alter her naturally flirtatious behaviour sounds like it would be unrealistic. And if you insist on unrealistic boundaries, they will only be the source of strife for the both of you. What is at the root of her flirtatious behaviour? Who knows. But if that behaviour is going to be a dealbreaker for you (or you will just continually kvetch about it), then be honest about *that*, and either suck it up, grow up and let it go, or end the relationship.
This guy writes like he’s 15 years old, I swear. He’s got his panties all in a wad over a KISS? that happened two YEARS ago? Good heavens.
Jealousy can be a monster.
On a tangent, I’m taking Salsa dance lessons right now, with my girlfriend, and we’ve noticed there are a few couples who refuse to alternate partners. I often wonder what their mindset is.
“A successful marriage is basically an endless cycle of wrongs committed, apologies offered, and forgiveness granted, ATH, all leavened by the occasional orgasm.”
This is just a bit overstated, don’t you think? Yes, minor miscommunications and wrongs occur every day. However, if you are self-aware and civil at all (and you had the good sense to marry for the right reasons in the first place), the relational irritations are far outweighed by the rewards of being able to share the rest of your life with a best friend.
STH may be uptight, but Dan and the Sloggers may also be coming down awfully heavy here. I didn’t get the sense that STH is concerned about adultery. Maybe it’s because I’ve hung out with too many drunks, but STH may be concerned that his wife is just not in control of her actions when she’s been drinking, and that it happens often. If that’s the case, it’s a different (and bigger, more difficult to solve) problem.
It sounds like you both need to curtail excess drinking as well.
Puritans is the kwaziest peoples!
@8
Nice one. It may be one sentence, but it’s a damn revealing sentence. I’m with you – I think this guy is a possessive freak.
I’m an out-of-control flirtatious drunk like this dude’s wife. I started out doing things like he wrote about and quickly spiraled into behaviors that were appalling to me once I sobered up–stuff like making out with my husband’s fat, sloppy, unattractive coworkers at parties, ugh! I am an amorous drunk who can’t keep her clothes on or hands off people.
I quit drinking for the sake of my marriage (and my sanity). My husband was pretty low-key about most of my transgressions, though unimpressed. Eventually I realized I was having a hard time with the idea of marriage, which was making me want to drink until I was in a blackout. This guy might want to explore that with his wife–marriage is difficult and it changes a relationship for some of us, even if you’ve been together a while beforehand. Instead of being ridiculous and punitive about kissing a friend, I think he should try having an open conversation about how it feels to be married to him.
While I think there’s basis for Dan’s response, is the overwhelming response against this guy warranted?
To wit, isn’t it possible that his wife is being a bit clueless? While it’s one interpretation to suggest that he is overstating the case, it may also be true that he is understating it. A wife who gets drunk and then acts out in public, being overly flirtatious, could be seen as being insensitive to her husband.
I’m all for open relationships, for discussing this, and for finding room to be human in committed relationships; but, that should happen with mutual understanding and agreement. Getting drunk and acting out absent some clear understanding, and then saying “it wasn’t that big a deal” seems like avoidance. Where’s the wife’s responsibility here?
Like it or not (and I mostly don’t) there is overwhelming expectation that married people don’t get drunk and kiss others in public. It can be embarrassing when others say to you “is that your spouse over there with their tongue in someone else’s mouth?”
Additionally, I grow weary of the double standard that often exists. What if this were the wife, who was uncomfortable because her husband gets drunk and plays grab ass with cute girls in bars? Would the advice and the comments be the same here? My experience is that men are not allowed to act in this way.
Anyway, there should be a balance here.
I would like to know if the drug in question was ecstasy…’cause if so, there’s even less reason for the stick this guy carries around in his ass. Everybody kisses everybody on E, and if he had any brains he’d swallow some himself and get in on the fun.
This is basic stuff here, people.
@13,
It could be that they’re just afraid of people they don’t know. That’s pretty damn common in Seattle frankly.
@15 good advice responds to the material actually conveyed, not to some varied interpretation of what is *really* going on. if someone wants the advice of psychic, there are places to go.
the guy’s letter is in no way about her “drinking”, and pretending it is, is bizarre and yes, it is about the reader, and not the letter itself. if he intended a letter about her drinking, then he is till a fucking idiot who pretends to be jealous, says he feel betrayed and cheated upon, but is really secretly upset about her never-discussed drinking problem. in which case, his wife should definitely divorce his ass before she has to hear about how her preference of cereal over eggs in the morning shows complete disregard for his feelings, or how her tennis shoes reflect an excess of sincerity that makes him feel that their life together is humorless.
@20 ‘ What if this were the wife, who was uncomfortable because her husband gets drunk and plays grab ass with cute girls in bars? ‘…
since the guy she kissed was gay i think the more apt question would be ‘ what if it were the husband who gets drunk and plays grab ass with cute guys in bars ?..
…wait… don’t women deal with this scenario all the time ?
Dan, I will get back to you if and when it actually happens, but I believe that your advice such as this is going to be the reason I am successful at a lifetime commitment some day. Thanks.
Boyfriends should really just KNOW, before getting into a relationship with a hag, that the fag holds a very special place in the heart, albeit very different from the place reserved for the boyf. Such displays of friendship and closeness should be expected.
But srsly, if dude’s a homo, why be worrying?
herpes risk, ick.
Whether they guy was gay or straight is beside the point. He’s overly jealous. A single instance of drunken kissing isn’t enough to ruin most strong relationships. For some of the strongest it’s barely even a blip on the radar.
What matters is what she does AFTER you get married, not what she did BEFORE you got married.
other than what @27 said.
This letter is about a kiss. With a gay guy. That happened a year before they were married. STH is actually “seriously @20 This letter is about a kiss. With a gay guy. That happened a year before they were married. STH is actually “seriously troubled” and considering “running the hell away” (i.e., divorce?) because of one kiss. With a gay guy. That happened a year before they were married. That is why this guy is a douchebag. If they were just dating, and he was writing in saying, hmm, I don’t know about this flirty stuff, what should I do (Dan says communication! and we all move on), then I don’t really think he’s a douchebag. But they are married, and he actually thinks this might be grounds for divorce.
I don’t know, I think what’s really going on here is this guy hates that his wife is flirty when she drinks, but realizes that he really shouldn’t hate it that much – that he isn’t “allowed” to hate it that much because she’s really not doing anything seriously wrong. But then (a ha!), the thing comes out about the kiss, and he thinks, finally! She did something wrong and I can be justified and complain about this flirty thing! All the other stuff was borderline, but this, this I know is wrong! Or whatever.
Awful advice, Dan.
If I spent a lot of time “repeatedly touching, …holding hands, and dancing closely” with people, French kissing lesbian friends two years into a relationship, and “dancing, hugging, and getting kissed on the cheek” by gay guys, my girlfriend would be pissed as hell. And she’d be right in being jealous, because I’d be acting like a dick. A dick lacking any self-control or concern for his partners feelings.
If that makes me prudish, well shit, swing the prude bus around and I’ll hop in.
@31, I’ll go get the keys.
I think they are both repressed and hyper emotional people. SHE takes it out by getting plastered and taking her fantasies out on the dance floor! He takes it out by being obnoxiously jealous.
I’m going to read very hard into this, but I think they both were perhaps a little too young to get married. I think they are both retarded and a little too inexperienced to get married. I think they get married for the illusion of stability.
I think he is floored because in his mind, she GOT what she wanted … exclusivity. And now he doesn’t have to be paranoid about being attractive to the opposite sex because he has someone that feels he is special. But then again, her wife is obviously attractive and cute and at least fantasizes about the freedom she gave up.
She is cute, got married like every good American girl is supposed to … and although he is a controlling overreacted whatever. He does cater to her every need and is obviously husband material. This in turn becomes overbearing so she becomes obnoxiously flirty when drunk.
My advice … level the playing field, and make it personal. FLIRT BACK!
When your girl is being all flirty, flirt with other people, show your independence. It will restore your self confidence and make HER aware of how he feels.
I think these people are playing a game with each other. I think he writes to Dan to plead his moral high ground and feel entitled to affection.
Funny, emotions don’t work on principal. I think these two are fucking with each other, and I think they should learn to do it more constructively … if they are going to compete for each other affection until death do us part … maybe they need to make themselves better people and stop trying to piss on each others space.
STH and Dan both need to chill out a little bit. STH is obviously insecure needs to relax about stuff that happened years before they were married. As for Dan, the response he gave seems more appropriate for a guy who flies off the handle when he pores over internet history and cell phone, that his wife has emailed and called a male friend several times in the past week. STH is open to the idea that he is being a selfish prude, so go with that. Have him go through some counseling so that he can understand that he needs to calm down.
However, in the off chance that his wife is actually flirting not just aggressively, but inappropriately, why not ask the partners of the men she is flirting with if they are are also bothered? If the girlfriends/boyfriends of the men the wife are not bothered, then STH really is a selfish prude. If most (75%) are bothered, then the wife should tone down the aggressive flirting because it is causing problems in her marriage, but other people’s relationships as well.
(Remember, I agree that in all likelihood, STH is being a selfish prude)
@30 – oh, you forgot to read the imaginary letter about YOUR LIFE that is hidden in this guy’s letter about HIS life.
i’ll tell you how. first, imagine that everything is really about you. second, imagine that everyone is like you, and never says what they are thinking, but talks around it. third, realize that the world is divided between people who love you enough to guess what you are *really* saying, and those people too horrible and selfish to guess correctly. finally, apply, with vehemence, to any and all situations you encounter.
good luck!
So, wait. I can’t get married in order to protect the marriages of people like this?!?!?
For pete’s sake, let the woman have a good time dancing and flirting occasionally. From the sound of it, she’s just a friendly and demonstrative person, and she’s not doing anything that warrants any secretiveness, since she acts the same when her husband’s around. No one wants an iron curtain to descend between themselves & the rest of the world after they’re married. (Or in this case, two years BEFORE they get married.)
Again, I’ll ask. Same advice if the genders were reversed? If the wife were uncomfortable with her husband getting drunk and then being flirty, we’d tell the woman to get over herself and stop being a prude?
STH seems to be itching for any excuse to get divorced. Your advice was right on, Dan. Have I ever told you I think you’re SO dreamy.
@35 — Word….
I think STH is suffering from insecurity and/or is unhappy with his marriage and looking for a way out. I admire your blunt response, Dan. You are SO dreamy…
Call me old-fashioned, but when I get a few drinks in me I start getting touchy and affectionate with MY FIANCE… not random guys and girls in the proximity.
SpireaX … I don’t think he is looking for a way out per se … but I think he’s thinking … should he get out now while it’s easy because he doesn’t have absolute control and confidence.
If he wants absolute control? Get a damn dog.
@38, yes. if the the worst sexual betrayal your husband committed was that last year, as your boyfriend, he got drunk and high and shared a kiss with an equally drunk and high lesbian, you should not really care about this.
Did this behavior start only AFTER they got married? Apparently not. Which leads to…
Why did he continue to date her, propose to her and marry her without settling this “issue” first?
@8 & @18: speaking of revealing sentences: “I told her of course she can talk to people without me”
Talk? Wow, how generous of him.
I’m so glad to be (mostly) beyond the chains of youth & insecurity.
I’m very friendly/flirtatious and dread the day I may have to cease kissing some of my guy friends on the lips out of consideration for my partner. Not even frenching, just smooching. Sigh.
@44 et al…
You’re all focusing on the kiss two years ago. Fine, I get the point. But the letter clearly stated that “when my wife gets drunk, she gets crazy flirtatious with everyone. She’ll get very close to people, repeatedly touch them or hold hands, dance closely, etc.”
I just don’t buy that the advice here would be of the same tenor if the roles were reversed…
And, don’t get me wrong, I think monogamy has serious problems and that most people should chill. But, that’s not the norm by a long stretch, and I think many people here think it’s sexy and fun and interesting when women do it, and creepy and compulsive and insensitive when men do it.
I agree that he should get over the kiss; it happened too long ago to be an issue anymore. However, being part of a committed couple means having regards for the other person’s feelings, and jealousy (in itself) is a normal emotion. This guy isn’t jealous when his wife hangs out, goes for coffee with other males – that is irrational jealousy. He gets jealous when she drunkenly gropes every ass within reach. I think the overall response would be very different if this were a woman writing in about how her husband gets drunk and grabs lesbo titties. Yes, flirting is good clean fun. But one still needs to respect the bounds of a commitment. (Of course, there can be non-monogamous commitments that are just as healthy as monogamous ones. If that’s what you want/need, don’t make a monogamous commitment!)
@46 ARGH! yes, because if i wanted to convince you that my partner was fuck-nuts crazy about something, i’d give you the worst examples of their behavior. and he makes it clear, HE IS GIVING THE WORST EXAMPLES and that he is just sure that this years old kissing is too much. HIS OWN EXAMPLE of his great behavior is that she is allowed to talk to other people when he is not around.
god damn it, read the actual letter written and not the imaginary letter of a man married to an evil, cheating whore. there are evil cheating whores, this is not any of them.
respecting someone as an adult means that you respect their ability to speak of their own life with some accuracy. if this letter is true, [and who the fuck are you to say this guy is too stupid to have written a letter about his life incorrectly!], then this guy is a fucking idiot.
if it were a different letter, about a different man, about a different woman, doing different things, then yes, the response should be different.
and just so we’re clear, i am a woman. and yes, i’ve said similar to women. i lost a friendship when i told someone she was acting like a child for this sort of crap. so yes, i really mean it, and i know what i am saying, and i know what i think, far better than you know what i think, asshat.
I wouldn’t be concerned about the kiss, the tongue, or even a little infidelity. But am a little concerned that STH’s woman may be another Emma Bovary, who was insatiable and destructive.
It is difficult, if not impossible, to have a relationship with someone who is never happy with what they have.
christ, now the letter is really about emma bovary?
I’m just surprised he can type with his head so far up his ass. If everyone took a deep breath, loosened up and stopped jumping to irrational conclusions wouldn’t we all be way happier people? Plus the guy acts like having what seems like an energetic, affectionate, and caring (she was “contrite”) wife is a bad thing.
It sounds like a really uptight dude married a girl with no self-control. How their relationship got this far I have no idea, but I’m really not sure why we’re just blaming the guy here. (Well, I do; Slog tends to favor sexual freedom over traditional value structures, which I’m on board with 99% of the time.) But seriously, while the guy clearly has some security issues, I feel like this is just a bad match in general. Relationships involve sacrifice. This girl knew this guy for years before she married him, did she not realize she was marrying a guy who wouldn’t be comfortable with her drunken “flirting?” The fact that she continues to do it despite the fact that it obviously bothers him–regardless of whether we, as the peanut gallery, think making out with your girlfriends is a no-no–DOES say something about her. Sometimes being GGG involves being less sexual, not more. Don’t agree? Fine, but don’t date a guy who’s clearly not comfortable with anything resembling an open relationship FOR THREE YEARS and then marry him.
Shit. One of the gays in our group was fucking a woman and no one thought it was anything other than sex.
I read these responses, and i think they BOTH suck still.
I think one behavior feeds into the other ….
What better way to vent with an emotionally needy borderline headcase than grope some men that well … are most likely NOT going to sleep with you so you don’t have to take full ownership of your flirtatious actions.
Maybe they shouldn’t have gotten married to each other, but they most certainly deserve each other …
She’s an idiot for confessing to the kiss in the first place. But I think you’re wrong that a kiss isn’t a big deal–I know I’d be upset if my boyfriend was kissing another woman, even if she was a lesbian and “no threat” to our relationship. We’re not married, but our relationship still counts, and your feelings should matter to your partner. The letter writer obviously is uncomfortable having his partner being physically affectionate with other people. I feel the same way with my partner. I guess I’m fortunate to date a guy who has the same boundaries as I do.
Of course, since this has been going on for the letter writer from their dating days, I have to agree with the others and say he should have resolved this before tying the knot. But I don’t think being uncomfortable with your partner being touchy-feely with others automatically makes you a douchebag, either.
Monkey see, monkey do…I’d take the boundary of the wife to be the boundary of the husband too!
STH should get a set and have some fun as well.
Cheating is what two people in a relationship decide it is, and a commitment to their mutually-agreed-upon rules starts when they both agree that it does (ie. not necessarily with marriage). If somebody told me that they had cheated on me, however we defined that, and had not told me about it for a long time, I’d be upset too. If a person consistently demonstrated that they couldn’t hold up their end of the bargain that they freely entered into, I’d be upset too. And I’m just about the least jealous person I know.
I would never, personally, agree to define a drunken kiss as cheating, because I think that’s fucking retarded, but that’s me. It sounds to me like this woman is going against the understanding that these two have when she is drunk, which might mean that she needs to renegotiate or stop drinking.
@8 YES! His language has flashing red lights all over it. That sort of distracted me from what he was detailing as his wife’s problem. Kind of makes me think he’s the one with a problem
Drunk girls kissing, holding hands and DANCING together? Wow, that never happens.
She doesn’t get crazy flirtatious with “everyone”, she does this stuff with gay guys, women when she isn’t a lesbian. There’s an obvious demographic she’s leaving out of her flirting routine. I expected to read some discretion with a straight guy somewhere, the way this letter started out. Jeez. Granted I might feel jealous if my boyfriend was kissing lesbians because typical straight men are attracted to lesbians and its their biggest dream to sleep with a hot one, but this doesn’t sound like that kind of situation.
While 57 has a very good point, I must point out that her worst transgression since marriage is (appereantly) getting kissed on the cheek by a possible lesbian!?!
So, it seems 59 has the right of it.
@60 thank you!
People don’t flirt with people that they don’t want to fuck – unless they’re using their sexuality to get something ELSE they want, like a job or an extra scoop of ice-cream.
This guy’s wife DID cheat on him. If he doesn’t get as far away from her as possible, hopefully before they have children, he is setting himself up for a lifetime of escalating disrespect from his wife until – inevitably – he comes home to find her in bed with a “friend”.
Not only is she betraying her husband, she is fucking up her friendships. There’s nothing like a total lack of boundaries to destroy a person’s social life. I bet her circle of friends changes regularly and frequently. The woman is ICKY. Save yourself. Leave her, suffer and cry for a few months, and spend the rest of your life with a mature human being. You won’t regret it.
… or prepare for a life of anger, helplessness and abuse. Good luck.
“I wouldn’t want to be married to man who claimed to love me but couldn’t forgive me for something so trifling as a meaningless kiss” You’re lucky you’re gay, Dan. My fiancee would go ballistic if I were to behave the way this man’s wife did, and I suspect that there aren’t many women who wouldn’t.
A selfish prick married to a drunken retard.
Please do not reproduce.
@64: Um….really? And you’re ok with that?
Here are my two cents worth. I know this is somewhat off point, but I think the wife is deluding herself about her ability to control a situation, while wasted, before things get out of hand and something does happen. She’s setting herself up to be raped by which I mean someone having sex with a person so wasted that they lack the capacity to give consent. There are some men and a few women who will take her flirting seriously and will act on what they perceive as an invitation. I do agree that the woman apparently lacks self control, which can lead to a dangerous situation because she flirted with the wrong person.
@63: “People don’t flirt with people that they don’t want to fuck”
Fuck! You don’t really believe that do you? If so, you’re more hopeless than folks are assuming STH is. I’m an incorrigible flirt and deeply enjoy the art of flirting just for flirting’s sake. Oddly my flirt ability is actually a little off when there’s also sexual attraction involved.
And, I seem to be magnet for drunk girls w/boyfriends/husbands who go a little overboard with the excessive touching, standing too close, etc. Sometimes it makes me feel damn uncomfortable — especially if I can see the guy is getting a little amped over it. Almost always it means nothing, but I have had a couple where it went too far and if the boyfriend/husband had known they would have had every right to go ballistic (e.g., slipping into the bathroom for some very inappropriate kissing, crotch grabbing, etc.). So I could see where STH might have some issues if this goes further, but based on what he’s said here, he needs to chill out.
I’m with @56. Is she clubbing and dancing with others because he doesn’t want to go to the clubs with her or he doesn’t dance or both? Grow a pair and go dance with your wife. Join her on the dance floor with the other women as well and have some fun. You don’t have to be the life of the party but you should at least be required to be breathing to attend.
He loves her.
Well, this case has many sides.
One should ask why she likes to get drunk, and lose control and give some reasons to hubby that one day the situation might get out of control
Two, He is a controlling freak .
Three both of them should sit and discuss and to arrive at a modus vivendi , crowned at the end by a hot night.I would suggest even to seek advice from therapist .
@50 if it is about Emma Bovary, does he look like Charles Bovary???.
I hate to say it, but all these “fuck you guy, for being up tight about your wife flirting with people when she’s drunk” comments are way off base, even you Dan, whom I usually agree with. The point is they need to agree that this is no big deal, or she needs to curtial her flirting (and perhaps her drinking) for the sake of her marriage, or she needs to break it off so she can flirt with whoever she wants. I love my wife and I would do anything for her, but damn right I would be pissed if I saw her kissing someone else if we hadn’t discussed and ensured everything was cool beforehand. Frankly, unless stated otherwise, i don’t think it’s unreasonable for a husband or wife to expect their partner won’t start mackin’ on the first piece of ass to walk into the club.
Maybe the guy is being a bit whiney, but i doubt he is thinking clearly right now.
Whoa, Dan, waaayyy too harsh.
Not everyone is sufficiently evolved for the cutting edge poly lifestyle that you enjoy. Some people feel more comfortable in a conventional monogamous relationship without all the flirting and the kissing and the swinging and so forth. There’s nothing at all pathological or evil or selfish about this, it’s just a perspective on relationships. When both are on the same page, or one is willing to meet his or her needs more discreetly, it can work quite well.
Anyway, most of them will open up by the time they hit their 40’s.
To Timothy, @ 20, 38, 46:
Thank you for bringing some common sense to this discussion!! You’re absolutely spot-on that gender plays a role in this.
Back to the original writer: Obviously he is not comfortable with his wife’s behavior, and althought it’s not spelled out explicitly in his letter, I think we can infer that he has tried to draw boundaries by repeatedly telling his wife he’s not comfortable with her behavior. Why is he seen as overbearing and borderline abusive when he is drawing boundaries that are completely culturally acceptable in our society? That is, most people would agree that both people in a committed relationship should agree on what is acceptable and not acceptable for their particular relationship. Why is it so shocking to both Dan and the posters on this thread that this man has a problem when — after marrying her — his wife admits that she strayed outside the boundaries of what I’m assuming (based on her not being immediately forthcoming about the kiss) were mutually agreed upon?
Jesus Christ, you judgmental people need to stop beating up on this poor man. Any healthy relationship (marriage or not) is based upon mutually agreed upon boundaries, and this man — who is admitting that he may be wrong! — simply doesn’t know how to deal with a partner who keeps ignoring those boundaries and who professes to be sorry but then keeps committing the offense.
Instead of simply offering ad hominem attacks (and collectively sucking Dan’s cock by refusing to consider that his advice might have been wrong!), why not offer the writer some helpful advice?
@68
You didn’t finish the quotation, gnossos. It ends ” – unless they’re using their sexuality to get something ELSE they want”. But there are in fact other reasons that people flirt – such as deep seated insecurity: many people flirt in social situations because they don’t believe that they have any other way to keep the interest of others. They flirt because they think they aren’t smart enough, funny enough, well-traveled enough, or worth being around just because they’re nice. So they put all their social stakes in their sexual prowess.
The fact that the wife hid the kiss from the husband tells HIM (not you or me) everything he needs to know about where this relationship is going. They are not suited for each other. If both people in the relationship are comfortable with any degree of MUTUALLY AGREED UPON outside sexual activity, then yippee for everyone. But this guy is unhappy enough to write a letter seeking advice. That means there is a problem and it isn’t just his. It’s theirs. It’s not about “there is only one way to have a relationship” but it has to be a MUTUAL agreement. She is breaking their pact and is cheating on her husband.
By the way, you go on in your comment to completely undermine your opening paragraph, capably winning the argument against yourself.
#52 OTM. I’ve had to negotiate some tough stuff with my partner, who’s a lot more boundaried than I’ve been in relationships before. Here’s how you don’t negotiate it: the unboundaried person gets hammered and acts out until a negotiation becomes a confrontation.
Don’t get me wrong – the guy does sound controlling and anxious. I wouldn’t say that makes him a douche, but whatever. I think he’s been really dumb not to broach this with her before marrying her, and I think she’s been duplicitous not to have mentioned something that’s still relevant – she’s still drinking and feeling up her friends and if she doesn’t stop she will soon be smooching around the room again. Honestly, I think this was not the best advice – he doesn’t sound like a get over it kind of guy, and I think Dan was right to suspect that this won’t end well either way.
@66–Yes, I am. We’re committed to each other; there’s no reason she shouldn’t expect me to act like it.
They are obviously not in an open relationship. I think the default of our society is that making out with a friend is outside the boundary of dating exclusively. It is a minor slip, one he should get over and forgive her for, but it is a slip nonetheless.
And Dan, you’re being way too hard on him. He’s not contemplating divorce because she made out with a friend *once*, he’s bothered by her routine drinking and aggressive flirting, and sees the kiss as part of this pattern. If she made out with a guy while drunk and flirting before, wouldn’t she do it again and again (and never mention it happened)? He’s jealous, perhaps getting jealous over minor things, but I don’t think his jealousy is all that unusual. He shouldn’t have to spend the rest of his life jealous of his wife behavior, and it’s not that simply to stop being jealous. It may be the two of them are simply incompatible, but if the wife wanted a degree of openness to their marriage where she could kiss others, she should have told him before they married. Now, he changes, she changes, or they split. That doesn’t make him the bad guy.
I think the problem with STH is that he asked Dan for advice. Anyone in a committed monogamous relationship shouldn’t direct their questions to Dan. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t believe in this kind of thing. The thing that really bugs me about Dan’s response though is that STH is fully willing to admit that he’s being a prude, is in full self-examination mode, and he still gets a lashing for even bringing the situation up. Regardless of how awkward his wording seems, I think Dan is the the one being the “douchebag” here.
Um, bullshit on all of youse guys. She knows her repeated behavior upset him, and keeps doing it. This is not his problem, it is hers. No, she didn’t cheat. No, she is not open to charges of outrageous deception on her part.
But focus on that *repeated* behavior part. This is not a one time thing. She does this. Not *did*. Does. As such, she is an inconsiderate spouse who should have discussed before marriage her apparent need to go to bars, get drunk, and engage in kissing and touching with other people. I call it a need, since in light of his upset, she would drop the behavior if she didn’t care about doing it. He had a right to know that drunken kissing and touching with other was on her post-wedding menu before they got married.
She didn’t, though. So be it.
So, letterwriter, you have a wife who seems to like making other people hot for her. She apparently uses booze and homosexuality (gay guys and lesbians) as cover in claiming you should not have a problem with it. But that is bullshit. She likes the attention she gets, and that will not change.
Your choice is to make peace with it, dump her, or extract a concession from her on your side. If she gets to get all feely in bars with gays and lesbians, fine. What do you want to do now that you didn’t bother to discuss before marriage? I think you can put it out there as a “I am going to…” No permission needed, apparently, particularly if you drink first. It should be somewhat to scale with her unilaterally-imposed menu choices. You cannot claim permission to have anal with her friends (assuming they are willing) or other high-grade plutonium level stuff like that. But if, say, you like having strippers rub themselves all over you, drop your twenties soil your undies as you will! If she–or the posters here–have a problem with that, well, what do you care? It is not like you are cheating, after all.
Um, bullshit on you guys. She knows her repeated behavior upset him, and keeps doing it. No, she didn’t cheat. No, she is not open to charges of outrageous deception on her part.
But focus on that *repeated* behavior part. This is not a one time thing. She does this. Not *did*. Does. As such, she is an inconsiderate spouse who should have discussed before marriage her apparent need to go to bars, get drunk, and engage in kissing and touching with gays and lesbians. I call it a need, since in light of his upset, she would drop the behavior if she didn’t care about doing it. He had a right to know that drunken kissing and touching with gays and lesbians was on her menu before they got married.
She didn’t, though. So be it.
So, letterwriter, you have a wife who seems to like making other people hot for her. She uses booze and homosexuality (gay guys and lesbians) as cover to claim you should not have a problem with it. That is bullshit, but there is bullshit in every relationship. Simply put, she likes the attention she gets doing this, and that will not change.
Your choice is to make peace with it, dump her, or extract a concession from her on your side. If she gets to get all feely in bars with gays and lesbians, fine. What do you want to do now that you didn’t bother to discuss before marriage? No permission needed, apparently, particularly if you drink first.
It should be somewhat to scale with her unilaterally-imposed menu choices. You cannot claim permission to have anal with her friends (assuming they are willing) or other high-grade weaponized-plutonium level stuff like that. But if, say, you like having strippers rub themselves all over you, drop your twenties and soil your undies as you will! If she–or the posters here–have a problem with that, well, what do you care? It is not like you are cheating, after all.
@79 “Anyone in a committed monogamous relationship shouldn’t direct their questions to Dan. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t believe in this kind of thing.”
Sure seems that way. I certainly support Dan for promoting polygamy as a valid choice. However, this response isn’t about promoting polygamy, it’s about bashing monogamy, which is stupid and a little disappointing coming from my favorite sex columnist.
Dan, even in the best of worlds many people would choose conventional monogamy over polygamy. Deal with it.
BS. french kissing someone other than your partner in a committed relationship is betrayal unless it’s explicitly agreed upon that it’s OK.
it’s not a severe betrayal, but it goes beyond “omission”.
Dan – you’re considering the kiss in isolation. but it’s part of a pattern. the disclosure of the kiss in the context of repeated occasions of unacceptable flirting is actually a big deal in my book.
the LW may be angsty but your reply is way, way off. i actually think your response is a bit prickish.
total fail on this response, Dan.
my 2 cents. YMMV.
There is flirting and there is seduction. Two different things. Flirting is fun and whimsical and it makes people feel good, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But seductive behavior–if you’re supposed to be monogamous–is out of line. The “dancing closely” part is what troubles me about the wife’s behavior. That can easily lead to “handsy” bullshit that someone who is committed and expects monogamy might not be comfortable with. And that’s understandable and not “douche bag” behavior at all.
Not to get all Dr. Phil on everyone, but past behavior is oftentimes indicative of future behavior. She’s flirting and kissing and “dancing closely” with everyone but her own husband it seems. That would piss me off too. Flirting is innocent fun, but shouldn’t she at least treat her spouse like he’s the most important person in the room?
Personally, when I read the letter, I immediately thought, “oh god she’s THAT girl. The one who’s got to be the fucking center of attention at all times.” You know, the sloppy drunk girl with the low self-esteem that makes everyone else uncomfortable?
@84
🙂
I bounce at pretty damn gay club, and yes MOST women flirt with gay men whatever … but the ones that are always sloppy drunk and grabby … they generally have issues. She may not want to be the center of attention, but she is obviously seeking validation.
Gay men are great for women, they can play with fire and feel close to a guy without the guilt and shame of actually having sex with them.
The ones that abuse it, are really really painful to watch.
Let’s get back to Emma Bovary. Anyone read The Kugelmass Episode, a short story by Woody Allen? An AWESOME short story by Woody Allen. Kugelmass steals Emma out of the novel using a magic wardrobe, and can’t get her back in for a while. Great story.
Wow Dan. Are we PMSing today? Yes, he should have addressed the drinking and flirting Issue before marrying.Did he think these behaviors would instantly stop when that ring was on her finger? Communication does seem to be a problem here.The vast majority of marriages are not open. This woman has shown disrespect not only for her husband, but for the wives, husbands, and SOs of the people she’s groping and kissing. We’ve all known both men and women who act like this for a variety of reasons. Mainly they do it because they are self centered and need to think that everyone wants them. They’re rude, disgusting, undignified,and disrespectful. I’m willing to bet that her behavior will never change, but escalate.I agree that he should grow a pair and sit down and discuss acceptable and unacceptable behaviors that both adhere to.And…. what else has’nt she told him?
@14 I prefer marriage to be an endless cycle o’ orgasms occasionally punctuated by a misunderstanding or silence.
Unasked Q: marriage aside, were they monogamous before or not?
If yes, A1: she did ‘cheat’. Also if yes, A2: her revealing the info about prior tongue kisses was a bold move on her part to be honest (not betrayal), and her promise to tone that shit down should be taken at face value, and they may want to give each other another chance (NOT he should give HER a chance). A3: your status as selfish or prude aren’t important here,( go seek validation from her). Instead, label yourself as not-communicating well enough for AdvancedRelationships 401, aka Marriage. (You didn’t discuss if kissing other people was ok? WTF is wrong with you: It’s like on page 42 of the How to Manage Monogamy Guide, handed out at the secret Hetero base. Sheeesh. )
Methinks Dan is a touch too libertine (and yet, bitter, somehow: how’s that work?), STH is too uptight / having issues, and STH’s wife needs to get her drinking under control before she starts spilling drinks.
Advice:
Negotiate boundaries. With words, not getting even tactics. If she can’t budge and neither can he, then somebody DTMFA. Neither’s comfort / happiness in the relationship should be sacrificed. A happy medium or a plan to take turns, maybe?
Now, if he’s got jealousy a-go-go, that often means insecurity issues are brewing: are these gay boys adonises, and he’s more a later-era Marlon Brando? If so, then THERE’S the real trouble, not the saliva or the lesbians. Likewise, I think that
@19 is on to something: she may want out and this is her silent plea for help. “Dude, I’m kissing gays rather than you – take the hint!!” She’s also got insecurity issues, if she’s attentionwhoring like a 20 y.o.
Oy.
@27 FTW.
@11, “kissing people –even (*gasp!*) with tongue– can be friendship-reinforcing,” – Yes! This is why I greet my coworkers each morning with a little tongue flicky and lip lock, you know… for reinforcing friendship. Cuz sharing a beer after work, or asking about their kids is soo UNFRIENDLY.
@21: yeah ALL DO E! WOoot! cuz of all the cases where drugs solve our underlying relationship problems rather than obscure them. Oh. Oh, wait…
So. You deal, yes?
@43: dogs also hump legs in bars *ahem*
@60: right – she’s possibly fucking with his head, and must have a decent reason for it. I Sooo want the other side of the story.
@66 : there’s this funny thing called “Mutually respectful monogamy”. Some people talk about it when they decide to date, others save it for a 5th date sorta thing, and some people actually write it in to their marriage/union vows. Weird, huh?
@73 gets several WIN points.
@75: damn fine point: “they put all their social stakes in their sexual prowess.” It’s nearly as immature as his possessiveness. Both could use some selfesteem spa time.
She should get away before kids are involved.
really hot
WOw. I must be the biggest prude on the planet but I assume this comes from me being unfashionably monogamous and the advice giver having an open relationship. I DO see kissing other people as a betrayal. Not a HUGE one, but one nonetheless. ANd it IS cheating. And the fact that she crossed a line years ago and then went on to continue the exact same behavior that led to it is absolutely irresponsible.
Cheating isn’t a single-definition thing. If you break the rules that are set down in your relationship as they apply to romantic interactions with other people (even “harmless flirting”), you have cheated and the act is a betrayal. For some (the youngest Bee Gee’s wife for one) this means knocking up the help, but not the sex that led to it. For some, this means tongue kissing guys on the dance floor. The fact that other people have set lower expectations does not change that. Basically, don’t do anything that would piss off your partner if they saw it. And if they do see it and it does piss them off, be considerate enough to stop it. I expect that my husband will refrain from farting loudly at my mother’s dinner table, not because farting is a betrayal but because it would bother me. This wife is unwilling to stop hanging on other people at bars even though it distresses her husband. That in itself is an issue. And no, the guy is NOT a douche for expecting his wife to act like a married woman.
And the fact that the wife swore up and down that she would never cross the line while “flirting” when she had in fact, admittedly, crossed the line already, is not an omission, it’s an outright lie. He’s not being jealous and possessive. He’s expecting his wife not to get tanked and act like a bar whore.
Seriously, charlie? You consider kissing someone else BEFORE marriage as cheating? Really? How ridiculous can monogamy get?
Yes, I DO believe that it is possible for a girl to cheat on her boyfriend. Monogamy is monogamy, with or without a marriage certificate. Are you seriously suggesting that it’s impossible to cheat on a boyfriend? Adultery no, infidelity no. But cheating, yes. It’s very possible. Unmarried couples break up all the time over cheating. And this guy might not have married her if he knew she didn’t consider kissing to be cheating, but she didn’t let him make that choice. She deliberately didn’t tell him because she knew he would be upset by it. She kinda scammed him.
@56, maybe HE should have realized he was dating a girl who liked to flirt when drinking before he married her. OH wait, he did! And he married her anyways! People aren’t going to change when you marry them. After three years of dating, you pretty much know what you’re into, just like the LW did. So he’s changing the rules on her now.
I agree with most of the posters who say that “cheating” means different things to different people, and two people in a relationship should be on the same page about what it means to them BEFORE anything like this happens.
Dan was a touch too snippy by accusing the LW of douchebaggery, although he does seem to be blowing some trifling behavior out of proportion. Lots of girls get flirty when drunk (actually, probably most of them!). At least she’s confining her drunken flirting to people with whom she’s not sexually compatible (gay guys, lezzies). Does he need to forgive her? Of course. She was “contrite” and promised to moderate her behavior. Does he need to chill out? Of course.
It would be interesting to see how she handled things if her husband decided to grope and kiss other women. I’m thinking she would’nt take it very well at all.
#96. Yep. I totally agree. And most here would be just as on her side in that scenario as they are in this one.
Because it’s all about female empowerment, dontcha know.
The guys’ not being unreasonable. The problem is more than just one kiss. The problem is that her judgement gets clouded whenever she’s high or drunk. He doesn’t just have to deal with what she did in the past, but what she could possibly do in the future.
That said, he shouldn’t divorce her. But I wouldn’t blame him if he insisted she quit alchohol and drugs as a requisite for staying in the relationship.