Rahwa Habtes, a community activist who used to run Hidmo with her sister Asmeret, sent me this text around noon: “They are debating whether an English degree should cost less than an engineering degree on KUOW right now.” She sent this text message because the previous night we had a conversation about this very subject. Her position was close to my position: Yes, it should cost less. My reasoning? Because the English degree is not about making money. English is really about English, a common and sometimes beautiful substance. You pursue English for reasons that are totally outside of the market system. A mastery of this art cannot be translated (at least immediately or directly) into market terms. If your life finds meaning in a big paycheck, then pay more and get a degree in something that the market recognizes and rewards handsomely.
Charles Mudede—who writes about film, books, music, and his life in Rhodesia, Zimbabwe, the USA, and the UK for The Stranger—was born near a steel plant in Kwe Kwe, Zimbabwe. He has no memory... More by Charles Mudede
But the price of an English degree is (theoretically) based on the value of that English degree to the consumer, not the market. If someone values the knowledge of English as much as someone else values a big paycheck then presumably they would pay the same amount for either degree.
Charles, that is a seriously dickish position to take. I happen to have two engineering degrees and am working on a third (PhD). I am most certainly not doing it for the money (if I wanted a particularly large paycheck, I’d go be a corporate lawyer or a hedge fund manager or something). Almost everyone I know is doing science and engineering because they love understanding the universe better or making/doing things that help humanity (medicine, technology, etc). The paycheck happens to be higher because its a really rigorous degree that most people aren’t interested in getting. Don’t tell me that I should pay for someone else to read literature and discuss philosophy. I do those things on my own time.
Wait… an engineering degree goes into post-grad, so isn’t it already more expensive?
Science is “a common and sometimes beautiful substance” too…
So I guess English teachers should get paid less than market rates, too. Because they exist outside the market system, in beautiful post-neoliberal claptrappian bliss, right?
It is a fallacy to believe that students go into engineering for financial reward. We are not engineers for the money; we are engineers because we have a love for systems and design. It is a difficult, demanding field in which those striving only to reward mercenary instincts generally do not succeed.
As usual, Mr. Mudede misses the mark.
There are some valid arguments to be made about the comparative costs between educating an English major and any of the diverse sub-specialties of Engineer. This isn’t one of them.
@3 no, it’s perfectly possible to do only an undergraduate in engineering.
Engineers also provide a service, if someone is determined and bright enough to finish a 4-5 year engineering degree they should be paying LESS, especially if they identify female since there’s a HUGE gender gap, especially if they agree to teach in-state for a couple years afterward.
If I had a nickel for every person I know that has an English or Psychology degree, and is doing NOTHING in that field… well, anyway, I would have a fuck load of nickels.
In searching for revenue, many schools agree that these programs should not cost the same. But they would advocate raising the current cost of an engineering program, not lowering the current cost of English.
I think that is incredibly insulting to English majors. I studied English. Studying English teaches you how to write effectively, an incredibly powerful tool in our modern world. I now write for a large company and make a healthy salary. Are my skill sets less valuable than an engineers?
@7 – Ahhh… baring CS and CE degrees (which shouldn’t really be considered engineering degrees, per se), I thought they generally took 5 years like teaching and architecture.
But an English degree is already in the commercial university system. Education in English is the “skill” or product being sold. It isn’t outside of the market system any more than any other degree that one must pay to obtain. Engineering isn’t about making money. If it were, there wouldn’t be a distinction between engineers and accountants. It’s a trade which refers to various excellences. The purpose of a trade (and even that’s offensive for an engineer) could be a career; and a career isn’t simply a job. A good careered engineer isn’t esteemed as such by his ability to make money; therefore, it’s not about making money (though it does pay more due to the value placed upon it by the economy). Just because this particular degree doesn’t come with a readily marketable skill set that is likely to produce a job afterward doesn’t mean it’s not about making money; and is subject to market forces whether or not you admit it. It is making money, just not necessarily for the person obtaining the degree. The selling point of many liberal arts degrees is that they do translate into marketable skills. Are you calling them liars (laffs)? By using your metric to determine price of degrees, already strapped for cash liberal arts departments would undergo yet further staff and class cuts, resulting in substandard programs (which already exist)…
People with a college degree, on average, make more money than those without one. So that would imply that they pay to be paid more, overall. It could be that people majoring in the liberal arts programs are paying for entrance into grad programs, which upon completion, command higher salaries. And many of these liberal arts majors come from comfortable backgrounds, which enables them to pursue majors that don’t translate into major specific employment. This is MERCA, Comrade Mudede. Practically everything has a cash equivalent (nothing is valued for its own sake–nothing has inherent value), and that isn’t going to change anytime soon. Should it? Well, you certainly have no viable solution.
And no, Muggle above me. You shouldn’t “have” to pay someone to discuss literature or philosophy. These are both being taught in their respective departments, not merely discussed. It’s just that when you do discuss say, philosophy, you quite literally don’t know what you’re talking about. Talking philosophy with non-philosophy people is like speaking two different languages. It’s very hard to deal with Muggles, as philosophically relevant topics are inescapable, but Muggles don’t know the difference.
If this was true, architecture school would be free! We do twice the work for less than half the pay. It may as well be an intellectual pursuit about inhabiting the world.
Engineering is a competitive major at most schools, but hey, guess what, so is English. Supply and demand.
Oh, and so is architecture, @14.
While I am not the recipient of an English degree, I am currently studying to get a history degree – a degree that people tell me all the time is “useless.” However, perhaps the things that you will learn while obtaining an English or history degree will benefit you in different ways than a trade degree, like one for Engineering. The ability to think, reason, and write will never be worthless. Not saying that engineers don’t do all of these things, but people with English degrees will use their skills differently than those with an engineering degree – making them equally valuable. 🙂
Here’s the deal kids: English degrees (and other humanities majors) SUBSIDIZE the sciences and engineering and other lab-intensive disciplines. Been proven over and over again.
Why? Because all English needs is some offices and a library.
Chemistry needs labs. And a constant stream of chemicals to blow shit up with. Ditto Bio and Physics and Engineering.
See here:
http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/PRN-…
@17 Except that for most universities funding from student fees/tuition and in the case of public schools the state comprise a small fraction of total budgets. Places like UW get billions of dollars in federal research funding, much of which directly supports graduate and to a lesser extent undergraduate science and engineering programs. Generally around 50% of science and engineering grants come right off the top to support university overhead for infrastructure, staff and programs.
@18 and 19. Read the damn paper. Faculty and students in the humanities cost administrations far far less than faculty and labs etc. in engineering etc. Their tuition (whether paid by parents or student loans etc) is the same tuition as students in disciplines where the faculty get paid far more than humanities faculty (due to competition from the private sector for people who can do math) and for labs and other necessities for the sciences. It’s a pure myth that humanities cost universities money visavis faculty salaries or student tuition. On both of those levels, humanities subsidize sciences.
Irregardless of how much a person might make with a English degree I think they should cost the same like a engineering degree cause theres a capitol letter on it. Usualy. Plus people with an English degree can mostly spell better and there grammar is good so they can spread the ideas for people who’s English is not that grate. Allright?
Granting that it’s true that humanities departments and students subsidize science and engineering departments and students, does that entail that humanities students should pay less in tuition? Given the aforementioned competition between private sector scientists and engineers inflating the salaries of engineering and science professors, and the cost of maintaining those departments (facilities, technology etc), they’ll either lose faculty, staff and facilities and the quality of the programs will take a hit, or more likely, the universities will take it out on the humanities departments, slashing budgets to make up for the loss of revenue to divert to the science and engineering departments (those science programs are flashier to attract the big guvment bucks)…or the university will take a collective hit, worsening all programs, and diminishing quality of education for all students. So it seems like a good reason, if you’re a science or engineering student, to give a humanities student really good head (NO, THEY WON’T SETTLE FOR A THANK YOU!), or an appreciative handy J, because after all, they’re paying for a good chunk of your education, and won’t reap the reward…but that’s about it. If it’s true.
Yes, of course. English profs can be paid in food. Engineering profs have to be paid to stay out of industry.
What would it cost to build an independent college of letters? You could hire literature teachers from the local Starbucks. You could meet in the basement of churches. That’s a price control on tuition.
The University adds value– a known name and accreditation. But like first row seats verses balcony seats, there’s a limit to acceptable mark-up before the seller ends up with empty seats at show time.
If the price of an English degree went down below other degrees, then there would be a terrible increase in clueless English majors. Not what this country needs right now.
Perhaps cost of degrees should be inversely proportional to use to society… value isn’t always monetary.
Engineers get higher starting salaries, sure. But they also face longer stretches of unemployment than liberal arts majors, and find themselves tied to the ups and downs of particular industries. Their job opportunities are often geographically limited. Liberal arts majors can work anywhere, in any kind of economy.
Lifetime earnings are about the same.
Sometimes I think the only reason the internet exits is for nerds to tell each other fairy tales to boost their weak self esteem.
rinohog, I have to disagree. We could use an increase in clueless English majors, maybe then more people would have a passing familiarity with the English language. Seriously, listen to people around you speak, read some of the things that ‘professionals’ send out in emails. Tell me I’m wrong.
@26, There’s mobility for those who are willing to take it. Plenty of people in the internet space used to work at JPL launching satellites.
I got a degree in English so that I could effectively comment on Slog!
Mr. Mudede,
Your skill with words never fails, but your judgment stings.
Today, I helped load years of work from a trailer on a farm into a Ryder truck. Monday, the truck arrives at LaRC. Tuesday, our instrument flies again. Can we change the world by better-measuring pollution? I hope so. I sure hope so.
We’re trying, Mr. Mudede. Many of us, in many different ways. We’re trying. I know you try too.
Degrees in English, and any liberal arts program, can be useful in the marketplace because the holders of these degrees are more likely to be good, focused critical thinkers. In my experience, they were certainly better at seeing the big picture than their business degree holding counterparts. But since those are the guys (and occasional gals) who go all the way to the top, you get things like the current recession.
The cost of a science prof versus a humanities prof is ridonkulous. A tenured history professor at my alma mater makes 40k. A tenured comp sci professor makes 120k. That’s not to say that the history professor curses his lot; he’s doing what he loves to do. But it seems to me that an English degree ought not to drown kids in debt given that our first jobs out of the gate are, in all likelihood, going to be entry-level positions in the service industry. Society would be well-served by such a change. Not only would a generation of humanities students, already at a disadvantage in their first five years after college, be saved from debt, but pursuing the cultivation of the human spirit through study would be more accessible for everyone.
Engineers generally become engineers because they hate words. Numbers are their thing.
Seriously (although the above was serious), of course an English degree should cost less. You don’t need labs or machines or expensive faculty or anything except a TA’s time for an English degree.
There’s no way that monetary motivations can be attributed to just engineering or science degrees, every area of study has it’s fair share. I witness firsthand everyday those english majors who picked english for the noble reason of not knowing what else to major in.
@32, i could not have said it better.
i will also read chicago fan’s link.
I was a Geology major and an English minor – and I did both for the love of the subjects. In fact, my English profs enjoyed my presence in their department. It was obvious that I loved literature, was highly well-read, and came into their classes possessed of better writing skills than many of their major students.
Because despite @33’s assertion that “Engineers generally become engineers because they hate words,” I know many scientists and engineers who are avid readers and pretty good writers. (Because, you know, science geeks don’t actively read classic mystery, horror, sci-fi and fantasy. And the latter two are frequently full of ballads and other poetry, so they go read other poetry as a result. And get inspired to try it themselves, as they are experimental by nature.)
If many engineers aren’t great writers, it’s not because of a natural non-affinity for words – that’s a stereotype just as inane as English majors can’t “get” science. It’s because the USA’s educational system doesn’t provide a hell of a lot of rigor when it comes to teaching writing skills (or science skills, for that matter). That I possess them is because of my mother; a graduate of 1950’s era NYC Polish Catholic schools, she was herself an excellent writer. I hated having her edit my papers, as she was a far harsher editor than my teachers. Because when 15% of your grade had been determined by how neat you kept your margins (on non-lined paper) and how neatly you dotted your i’s and crossed your t’s (with sometimes blotchy fountain pens), you made sure the other 85% of your grade that was based on content was perfect. (No one ever got 100%, because only God was perfect – can you imagine that shit flying with today’s “special snowflakes”?)
I was also lucky that my Geology department had profs who insisted we graduate with writing skills. Because they knew that a good scientist has to publish. From 200 level on, each class required at least one clearly-written, properly referenced paper.
But really? A degree is a degree. You are paying for the entry ticket to a better standard of living, by educating yourself in a marketable and valuable skill. If you choose to major in English, then you better understand how it is marketable and valuable. If you don’t understand that, then that is not the fault of other more “applied” disciplines like sciences, finance or business that result more regularly in better paying jobs.
And Charles? If you think a mastery of [English] cannot be “immediately” translated into market terms, then I’m wondering if you think all engineers and scientists jump into plum jobs with a BS. My entry level jobs were just as crap paying as any retail job an English major stereotypically has to take out just out of school. The difference is that instead of making coffee, I doing the repetitive and boring part of science (that frequently involved much manual and mind-numbing labor).
And if you don’t think science has an artistic component, go ahead and do a Google Images search of “scientific illustration.” Or just pick up one of Stephen Jay Gould’s many books – the late Dr. Gould was a marvelous and skilled author.
Besides – Stephenie Meyer has a BA in English. No matter whether you are a fan of her books or not (I’m not, but I can objectively understand the appeal), it is generally accepted that her writing style is actually horrible. Mastery of the art of writing is not automatically granted with the BA degree.
So you’re not actually paying to learn for the mastery of the English language when you get a BA in English. You’re paying for the degree, which is the price for working in more regular, lucrative writing gigs. So fork out for the advantage of the BA on your resume, or shut up and just build up a writing portfolio to make up for not having the BA. The latter requires no degree at all; it’s very cheap financially, though there is a lot of sweat equity.
Science and Art can we all agree? Business majors are the devil.
I think we need more intelligent English majors walking around. Not the kind who would major just because it’s cheap. Some of those kids who don’t know what they want to do will pick a major based on that fact, it seems hard enough for some of them to decide simply based on what they enjoy doing.
If you drop the price of one degree, then that will pull majors out of others, and sometimes those nearly floundering poor kids pick engineering or geology or biochemistry because deep down in a place they aren’t aware of, they actually like the stuff.
@37
Agreed.
There are three sources of revenue to a department at all universities:
1) tuition
2) research grants, including overhead (the fee university’s charge for general infrastructure)
3) alumni giving
at a state university, there is a fourth:
4) direct state government payments
The argument for humanities departments subsidizing other areas focuses on tuition revenue and direct student costs. The funding for engineering and the sciences is mostly about the last 3.
If you don’t think alumni donations matter, consider where the mechanical engineering department resides (MEB) vs. the computer science and engineering department (Paul G. Allen Center).
Of course, a school doesn’t get to charge what a degree costs or is worth, but what students and their parents will pay. In UW’s case, it also can only charge what the state legislature thinks is in the best interests of the state. I want to see the argument that convinces the legislature that it should encourage more English and fewer engineering majors by making engineering more expensive 🙂
By the future earnings of English majors is not that bad (http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/de…); by mid-career, they are earning about 70% of what engineering majors earn. Social Work is the degree that really needs a subsidy.
@28
See? Right there? You told yourself a little story and your self esteem got a little boo.
Because thinking about web monkeys gluing together Flash e-commerce sites while all those countless hours studying astrophysics swirl down the crapper would make your self esteem go down just a teensy bit. I’m good enough. I’m smart enough. And gosh darn it, people like me!