If you really think that an abortion is the murder of a baby, it follows that you’d be pro-life. And if you truly believe that homosexuals are the spawn on Satan, it makes sense to be against gay marriage. But, honestly, who are these people are who are so passionately opposed to health care reform?
Are they really, totally, blissfully happy with their health care? Have they never been sick? Do they not know anyone who’s been sick? And if they are, luckily, happy with their plans, has it been that way for their entire lives? Have they always worked for the same companies and never had to change insurance? Never had a break in coverage?
Aren’t they concerned that if they leave—or lose—their jobs, they will lose their coverage? Especially if they’ve ever actually been sick and needed to use the insurance? Do they know about what happens with pre-existing conditions? Or how much COBRA costs? Generally at least $1,000 a month for a family plan. Could they afford that?
Last year, my family had pretty typical employer-provided insurance and two relatively minor health issues. We spent over $9,000 out of pocket on health care costs—on top of the $5,400 or so we paid in premiums.
Your typical 80 percent coverage may sound good—but with a minor surgery costing $20,000 or more, that means you, the consumer, need to pony up $4,000 for your 20 percent. Do other people just have that extra cash sitting around?
To say nothing of the time and effort it takes to deal with the forms, the pre-approvals, the checking to make sure that each and every provider associated with your particular case is covered by your plan. With any medical procedure, bills fly in fast and furious from the lab, the radiologist, the pathologist, the hospital, the doctor, all with separate co-pays and deductibles.
Who are these people who say they don’t want government insurance? Don’t they have parents on Medicare? Are they planning to refuse Medicare for themselves? Do they know people in the military? Should we dismantle the Veterans Health Administration, just because it’s provided by the government?
And don’t these people know people who are out of work? It’s impossible to believe that they really don’t know any of the nearly one-in-five Americans with no insurance. Do they know that a majority of personal bankruptcies are directly related to health care costs? According to a study published in the American Journal of Medicine, “most victims are middle class, well educated and have health insurance.”
In 2007, before the current economic downturn, an American family filed for bankruptcy in the aftermath of illness every 90 seconds; three-quarters of them were insured. Over 60% of all bankruptcies in the United States in 2007 were driven by medical incidents. In an article published in the August 2009 issue of The American Journal of Medicine, the results of the first-ever national random-sample survey of bankruptcy filers shows that illnesses and medical bills contribute to a large and increasing share of bankruptcies. The share of bankruptcies attributable to medical problems rose by 50% between 2001 and 2007.
A few more health issues and my family might have been among them.
The idea that a new system will institute health care rationing? We already have rationing—and not just for people who have no insurance. Have they never tried to get a prescription filled that’s not on their plan’s approved list? Or tried to see an out-of-network doctor?
And the fear that a new plan will pull the plug on Grandma….my mother spent most of last fall dealing with my grandmother’s end-of-life care and if anyone thinks that’s a fair and reasonable system, they haven’t known anyone who’s died old, sick, and in a nursing home.
This woman who attacked Senator Arlen Specter…
“This is about the dismantling of this country,” Katy Abram, 35, shouted at Mr. Specter, drawing one of the most prolonged rounds of applause. “We don’t want this country to turn into Russia.”
Are she and the other applauding protesters just incredibly stupid? Or the healthiest people in America? Or what?
It’s simply further evidence of the masses that the elites who control the Far Right aspects of the Republican party have co-opted people who simply don’t know better. The Democrats, and the Left, are doing a terrible job in getting the Word out on how this will benefit so many people who on the surface should be absolutely FOR health care reform, rather than being diametrically opposed to it.
Who will benefit the most? All those hundreds of thousands, and probably millions of people who by virtue of geography, and the situations of their birth and upbringing, have no appropriate medical coverage. The Wal-Mart and McDonald’s employees of the world. The people for whom, if they break an arm, will be faced with $8,000 in medical expenses they will be forced to spend the next 15 years paying off.
The Republicans have, simply put, brainwashed people with promises of support on their pet issues, such as religion, and by trumpeting total nonsense like calling people for reform “Communists” and other nonsense. The only people who stand to lose in this scenario are the insurance companies, and the politicians themselves who are heavily subsidized by contributions from the insurance industry. Will the medical industry take a stock hit? Of course.
But the medical industry does just fine in the rest of the Western world.
A large percentage of them are over 50. I’m willing to wait it out a few years so they can reap what they sow. Let the 35-50 set of those folks like the woman above turn into a shrieking fringe while their parents die of some sort of lungrot or broken hips.
In fact, here’s to Swine Flu and the Hanta Virus! A little Legionnaires, maybe. We can throw in some kind of late-life virus, too.
Exactly what I’ve been thinking, except organized and presented clearly. Thank you!
They’re not afraid of healthcare. They’re ignorant bigots afraid of Obama, and Limbaugh et al just whip them into a frenzy over whatever is the issue of the day. There was no opposition when Bush presented his healthcare reform, the prescription plan, and I doubt any of these people would contest that we need reform if you had asked them in, say, 2007. But Obama scary! So yes, they’re incredibly stupid, pathetic people. It’s sad.
It’s all in the framing of the debate and how people have been conditioned to see their circumstances. One of my co-workers was ranting about how in Europe you have to WAIT IN LINE TO SEE A DOCTOR!!! I pointed out that if he went to the goddamn emergency room right this minute, he’d be sitting around for a few hours, let alone if he called up one of the doctors covered by our employer’s (decent by US standards) health plan, and that my wife had to wait A WHOLE WEEK for an MRI recently. How was that not “waiting in line”? His answer: “Oh, I never thought of it that way…”
Fear politics and first level thinking. The right-wingers prey on the fears of the masses, most of whom don’t have any real ability to think critically.
As the child of someone who’s father worked for the VA Hospital system his whole life and who currently works for a government agency I wouldn’t be terribly excited about going to a VA type hospital for my treatment. The red tape and political mess is astounding. Even still I think socialized medicine, even if it were just like our current VA system and no better (which I think it would be better) is preferable to the nightmare of our current health system. If what ails you doesn’t kill you then dealing with the insurance companies and the bills will.
It’s not going to win anyone over call people in opposition stupid. There are legitimate reasons to be concerned about changes to health care. And anyone should be suspicious that this thing is just getting ramrodded through.
I do believe that a lot of folks participating in “town hells” are being cynically manipulated by interests that couldn’t give a shit about them, but as BaconCat points out, most of these people are over 50. How many 50 year olds do you think have had a bad experience with government, whether it’s the county zoning board or the IRS? Perhaps they are just less naive about how government run health care will turn out.
Racism. It’s lethal. In the minds of these poorly informed protesters there is no way a black man named Barack Hussein Obama is gonna do something good for white people. One of the lies I’ve heard is that they think the plan includes special privileges and access for blacks to expensive operations and transplants.
The left is made up of hippies and their ideological spawn. We believe in love and peace, not fear and war. We keep trying to use our indoor voices and reason while the right screams and shouts and isn’t shackled by “truth” or “reality”.
My only hope is that the idiot mouth-breathers that fall for this shit are just very loud, but numerically small and that there is a great, quiet majority in the heartland that use their minds and see these fools for what they are.
Iowa legalized gay marriage. That keeps my hopes alive.
Who are these people? Well, the ones I know (including my father in law) do two things in particular:
1. They watch too much Fox News and/or listen to too much talk radio.
2. They believe everything they see on TV or hear on the radio, without questioning.
In short, as Gomez says, they lack the ability to think critically, or (even worse) are deliberately refusing to think critically.
This is just a continuation of the division from the election. The right is being sore losers and trying to stir the sh*t whenever they can. These people can’t be happy with their coverage, they’re either republicans fighting because of there’s fight, or the ignorant, being caught up in a mob mentality.
Myself, I’m actually kind of looking forward to these ‘waves of euthanasia’.
“Are she and the other applauding protesters just incredibly stupid?”
yes
@8 Who’s talking about winning people over? These people are afraid of Obama and anything (yes, anything) he does. You can’t win them over. They have already made up their minds that everything this administration does is designed for the sole purpose of “taking their rights away” and “taking their country away”. Look at the conservative movement since the inauguration – it’s all exactly the same. Obama will never, ever do anything that they will approve of. Nothing.
They are ignorant morons and we need to stop even pretending to be nice about it.
What gets me are the people saying, “I don’t want the government making my health care decisions!” Um, as opposed to those notoriously altruistic creatures, insurance company bureaucrats and stockholders, who are already making your health care decisions? At least government entities are somewhat accountable; elected officials can be thrown out of office, someone else can be elected, and they can be called to account for the people they appoint. Do you know who is on the care-limiting committees of your insurance company? Do you know their internal policies for gatekeeping (i.e., preventing you from getting care)? In what way are they accountable to the health care consumer?
Despite the fact that they ALREADY DO….they don’t want to pay for poor people. And they think the level of care will go down, or that they won’t be able to see a doctor. Even with the massive amounts of evidence to prove otherwise….
There is seriously no convincing these people, they honestly and truly think the private sector is doing a better job and the government would raise taxes to 90% and everyone would die.
Trust me, I have tried to reason with them, but it is to no avail.
There’s a reason our nation has plunged into a warp-speed national decline: most of this nation’s citizens are aggressively ignorant, hateful, sadistic, right-wing morons.
It’s not a matter of some kind of bell-curve of intelligence and critical thinking skills–Sweden works just fine, for example. No, there’s some kind of fundamental flaw in the people of our society.
And asking the politicians/corporate puppets to reform healthcare it a total waste of time. We’d have better luck begging the King… er, CEO of Goldman Sachs.
Also, claiming racism here is wrong. While maybe 5% are, the majority really are scared their taxes will go up to 90%, the country will be bankrupt, and they won’t ever be able to see a doctor.
Regardless of the facts you present them, the are disfunctionally fearful.
And just to post this in as many places as possible:
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.
I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.
On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
And then I log on to the internet — which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration — and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.
1) They have been scared out of their minds by nutcase Republican lies
2) Many of them have Medicare (or VHA coverage) and they think that extending that coverage to others (read: poor people, people of color) will mean taking it away from them.
I think a lot of the rhetoric from the “healthers” is really smoke and mirrors for the racism of an ignorant subsection of the population (and a tiny minority of the population at that).
What they’re doing is freaking out that a black man is in charge of the country and they see Democrats as complicit in this.
They don’t use conventional racist terminology or imagery (most of them, although one healther as Pam’s House Blend pointed out yesterday ripped up a Rosa Parks picture during whatever protest); instead, they conflate discourse and images of Nazis and socialists and superimpose this onto Obama and others. (“I can’t be a racist if I’m calling Obama Hitler because *Hitler* was a racist.”)
These same healthers don’t have even the most basic understanding of the economics of health insurance the way it works now (evidenced by the healther in St. Louis who needed medical treatment after an altercation with some union guys and needed donations since he doesn’t have health insurance).
The same healthers usually don’t understand that the VA runs a government health plan for military families already, and they don’t understand that Medicare and Medicaid are government health plans already.
They are knee-jerk, antigovernment, gun-toting, (latent?) racist types: the birthers, the deathers, and the healthers are all the same vocal minority that has taken hold of the public discourse–and for some reason the majority who desperately want reform aren’t being vocal about it yet. Probably because they’re afraid of some healther shooting them.
Many of the people opposed to health care reform are those who currently have Medicare, or soon will, and are afraid that they will lose some of their benefits. The current system does work for those people, and retirees both vote in disproportionate numbers and have time on their hands to attend town hall meetings.
Yes, they are really just appallingly stupid. They’ve also been kept angry and afraid by loudmouths like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, which combination of emotions is remarkably effective at stifling critical thought. They live huddled in caves, seeing out only through the doors of perception offered by Fox News, Free Republic, and the National Review.
Somebody please save this artcle and comments. Repost it weekly if possible.
Yes. Most of them are incredibly stupid. The others are rich and mean-spirited.
Well said. My thoughts exactly.
“Are she and the other applauding protesters just incredibly stupid?”
Yes.
The people who think it’s counterproductive to label stupid things stupid need to remember that the right will never honestly debate any topic. They use demagoguery to persuade stupid hillbillies to act against their own best interests, and they’ve gotten really good at it.
Fuck them. Right in the ear.
They hate our president because he’s black and like Sen. Jim Demint said “If we can kill this healthcare reform it will be Obama’s Waterloo”. And they are appallingly stupid as well. But racists are stupid anyway.
And its impolite to call these people stupid, so the MSM (Maddow aside) treats them with kid gloves and look for ways to validate the concerns these old, white nimrods have for opposing health care reform.
Listen to Joe Scarborough, and you’ll know that octogenarians on Medicare really are concerned about how health care reform will impact the country’s long-term debt.
A few reasons:
1. They don’t want to pay for poor people. They do understand that providing care for all means people with more will have to pay for people with less. They see a $9000 bill now (as used in the example above) and wonder what it would be like if they had to pay for a poor person in addition to their bill.
2. They don’t want worse care. People hear how those in other countries come to the US for the best possible care. There is a fear that if more money is spent treating everyone, there will be less to spend on treating those who are “better off”.
3. They honestly believe in the virtues of capitalism…
AThey want people to have to work to get heath care, and to have to get a better job to get better care.
BThey believe the best advances come from competition, which may be absent or less possible with a government run system.
4. Existing government programs. Including VA care and Medicaid, as well as USPS, IRS, unemployment, etc… People are already dissatisfied with some of the care they see being provided by the government, and don’t want that to spread. They don’t believe the government can run a program as efficiently as a for-profit corporation can.
I love the whining about paying 20%. What, will Obama make it so you don’t have to pay anything?
Should all healthcare just be free?
It’s clear that you’ve done some deep thinking on these issues.
No, they are just incredibly stupid. There have been two stories already profiling people who were at protests who, they or their families, were being directly helped by medicare or some other govt run program that they take advantage of. That’s probably just the tip of the iceberg! They were out there with Obama-with-a-hitler-mustache signs, you know, saying they don’t want “socialism.” It doesn’t matter to these dumbfucks how hypocritical they are, because they are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own self interest. They don’t understand government or economic systems because the last time they took a history or economics course was 35 years ago. Like Carlos Watson said yesterday, if you just start replacing the world “socialist” with the n-word, only then will you even begin to understand the underlying racism that is a part of this campaign. It’s not about health care at all, it’s about opposing Obama, plain and simple.
They are people who believe the best time in life was the false depictions of the 1950’s in shows like “father knows best” and “leave it to beaver.”
The further we move away from that false memory of a glorious past that never was, the angrier they get.
They are people who must be dragged, kicking and screaming, into a better and more progressive society.
@31 – First off read this. I’ll wait:
A User’s Guide to Bad Faith Health Care …
Done? No? Ok, keep reading. You really need to get your facts straight. Nobody is proposing government-run health care. Hospitals, doctors – hell, even insurance companies – remain in private hands under all health care proposals on the table. Private industry remains a key part of this. The reforms being proposed involve: eliminating restrictions on pre-existing conditions, curtailing the ability of insurance companies to retroactively deny coverage, and lower costs by increasing the number of people insured (that’s how insurance works: it’s a giant pool of money, and the more people you have paying in, the more efficient it becomes). Poor people who are uninsured are already on the dole – they just cost $2000 for an emergency room visit (paid for by taxpayer dollars – today!) instead of $200 for a normal doctor visit.
Why do you love to lie so? Are you just allergic to the truth?
@32,
No, we expect it to be paid for by taxes, but thanks for including your credentials in your handle so it’s obvious why you’re so threatened by health care reform.
@32: Well actually you’d almost nothing with government run healthcare (or you should). My highly conservative Republican (by Australian standards) acquaintance had knee surgery in Australia, that was about $32,000 when all was said and done. He paid around $17.00 for it. He pays monthly into the system, but that was all he paid for his care for his knee.
You obviously aren’t an Md, and you obviously have not seen how healthcare works in every other industrialized country.
But thanks for playing Slog!
Change scares many American citizens. The issue is should they trust the politicians or risk making a change to the status quo?
These folks are risk averse. They’d rather stick with the devil they know than the devil they don’t.
These folks believe in plain speaking. They do not understand the “legalease” in these bills.
These folks understand community, unity, helping the less fortunate. Why don’t healthcare proponents speak their language? The proponents are not speaking plainly. I have yet to hear anyone say common wisdom things such as:
The plan are like vouchers for school (Choice and Competition!).
It is the community binding together to share resources in the case of an emergency (Hurricaine Katrina).
People standing together to pick-up another when they fall (United!).
The price is much less for all of us to pay a little bit now in return for the assurance that if something goes wrong we want have to pay for it by ourselves (all for one, and one for all!).
Yet the opponents have it easy. they simply scream SOCIALISM! These folks understand that socialism is bad, therefore healthcare reform must be bad. The opponents are speaking their language.
Moreover, these folks often have been burned by politicians. Trusting a politician is very difficult for them. These working folks do not have the time or resources to read the details of these plans.
So, their choice is to trust a politician or keep things the same. The choice is easy.
Monique, you may be right about the racism thing, but the problem is the media shows videos of these morons like they actually have some huge backing or something. However, last time I checked, these people were incredibly proud of themselves that they were racist, evidenced by the videos from Palin rallies back in the fall.
On another note, it’s actually quite disturbing the way Glenn Beck uses emotional manipulation on his show to make people think he’s really “concerned” for the average American.
What are you asking rhetorical questions for? I sure don’t know what the fuck they’re thinking.
You’re the reporter, go ask them and let your readers know what they say. I’ll even give you a contact name: Katy Abram, 35.
I went to a town hall meeting in the Los Angeles area last night. The issues I heard were these:
1. We don’t want to provide benefits to 300 million illegal immigrants
2. My benefits are adequate. I don’t care about yours.
3. I am in remission from cancer because of medical research. Government funded healthcare will stifle competition that leads to innovation.
4. Obama = Hitler
5. I don’t want to give up my existing doctor.
6. The IRS = government health care
If there is a town hall in your area–GO! People interested in reform have been vastly outnumbered by the shouters.
@40 The heavy reportorial work has already been done by Thomas Frank in his book “What’s the Matter with Kansas: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America.” This is just a continuation of the right’s exploitation of these misguided Americans.
@35: I’m not sure 31 was arguing with you, or any of us. I think the comment was just trying to explain how these people are rationalizing their objections.
The proponents of change need to make their case specific, in it easy to understand and appealing terms (think Tim Eyman).
For example, instead of being on the defensive about taxes, say “We pay higher taxes because we want quality teachers, smaller class sizes, and more police protection.”
For health care, try, “Too much of our health care dollar goes to paperwork. The point of most of the paperwork is to deny medical coverage to folks who have paid premiums. If we had less paperwork, we could afford more coverage.”
It’s not that difficult to craft a simple and positive measure.
You know how stupid the average American is? Half of them are dumber than that.
Don’t these mouth breathing knuckle dragging un-American, tea-bagging birthers realize that, like in every one of its undertakings, the Obama administration is in possession of the vital answers to the ills and inequities that have long afflicted American society (whether Americans know it or not), and don’t they understand that those opposed to those answers and that vision are just cynics, or, worse yet, operatives of the powerful vested interests responsible for the plight Americans find themselves in (whether they know it or not), or, even worse yet, political enemies bent of destroying the Obama administration?
@45
Shouldn’t people as smart as Obama, Reid & Pelosi be easily able to convince and lead people as stupid as Americans?…
I mean, if their so smart and all, and where so stupid and all? Seems like they should be able to spoon feed us their ideology effortlessly…
we’re not where
and they’re not their
@ 47, 48, 49 – way to make an argument….
They’re just upset they lost and that most Americans want them to go away and STFU.
Which, naturally, I can empathize with.
😉
@35
It didn’t sound to me like 31 was necessarily saying those were good ideas or that he supported them, just that those were the concerns of the other side. In the end 31’s personal views on it doesn’t matter. What matters is that he’s itemized some real reasons that many people are against this reform. He’s the first person here who’s really done that. Calling your opponents stupid hillbillies, while it may be true in many cases, doesn’t help your case. I think everyone should go back and look over 31’s post. Those are the barriers we have to deal with to get people on our side.
It’s often the loud mouth that gets heard. There are a lot of people out there who really believe the things 31 posted. Many of them could be convinced of the truth if we would stop calling them names, even when those names are accurate, and show that we understand their concerns and show them that they needn’t worry about them we could convert most people to our side. Convert enough reasonable people and the quiet majority will eventually drown out the screaming minority.
In other words, quit worrying about stupid hillbillies and start talking sense into sensible people who just don’t understand.
@ 50 – You have pretty much skated through life. Your insurance worked fine when you got sick. Other people you know, WHO HAD INSURANCE, theirs worked out fine.
I think you just made the point.
@43 thanks… you are absolutely correct.
@35 see 43 above.
that said… everything i’ve written here are things i’ve heard from co-workers, family members, or neighbors. one of the reasons we not convincing them is that our tactics are barely better. did you call me a liar? why? that does not help the discussion. most of these people are no liars. they are mistaken, or afraid, or hold a different view. i think when they start yelling and interrupting it is ridiculous, unproductive, and not civil. but sometimes it comes from a misunderstanding, not from any malice to mislead others.
if you’ve tried to engage them and failed, or if they yell at you, fine, call them a liar or whatever else you feel justified in saying. but try to keep the dialog open. not everyone who holds a different view is automatically a liar.
Big hot topics brought up at Oregon’s first town hall. Some critics who spoke claimed the Obama administration was attempting to euthanize the elderly, fund abortion and provide health care to illegal immigrants under the reform plan, and increase in cost.
We American’s are such a consumer society. We demand that our medical insurance covers the latest cholesterol drug, while we reach for another processed piece of food. Never mind that many of us could significantly lower our cholesterol if we picked an apple to snack on and walked more. To listen to my 65+ Repub. dad go on about it, he wants top of the line care, the latest in drug therapy, without any inconvience to him, the right to access specialists as he sees fit, and he wants it cheap, because he is retired. All of this while snacking on a bowl of cheetos.
Oh…. And Audry, to answer your questions (in the order presented) as one of “these people” passionately opposed to health care reform as it is being proposed: No, but adequately, mostly and reasonably happy, yes. Yes. Yes. No. No. No. No. Yes. Yes. Yes. I doubt it. Average people who take the time to understand their coverage, how it works and make the effort to plan responsibly for emergency situations. Yes. No (but I doubt it will be available when I’m eligible). No. No. No. Yes. “The idea that a new system will institute health care rationing?” is not a question. No. No. No. No. They are skeptical of the governments ability to do anything well and trust industry motivated by the profit incentive in a free market to make better decisions concerning the distribution of resources than corrupt political appointments serving at the will of Senatorial oversight committees helmed by even more corrupt beltway politicians obsessed with social engineering.
@50
Thanks for your very reasoned points. I’d consider you very lucky. Personally I’m 30, I’ve been pretty lucky too. I’ve been very healthy and had relatively few injuries. I have however been laid off before and though I’m college educated and live frugally I haven’t always been able to afford COBRA and certainly haven’t been able to afford major medical procedures if one had come up at the time. I could give you countless examples of people in my life who haven’t been so lucky though, many through no fault of their own, and I consider it our duty as people who want a healthy society and a civilized world to help them. I consider healthcare a right, not a privilege. I’d put it in the “life” category of “Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Interestingly, my parents who are quite conservative and don’t want government healthcare and are in their 70’s are doing everything they can to make sure they can use Medicare to the fullest. My Mother’s finishing up a round of treatment for cancer (and doing well thank you) and they have private insurance. They’re using clever legal tax loopholes to make sure they don’t have to use their own assets for long term care. Kind of shitty and hypocritical if you ask me.
“Have they never been sick?
well, they sure are showing symptoms of a severe case of whine flu.
@50, with whom I agree on all points, mostly shares my experience except for that I have had serious, unexpected and life threatening medical events (more than one) for which I have been treated to my complete satisfaction in both quality and cost of care.
It terrifies me to think about the Government meddling (more than it already does) in an industry that, in my experience, has preserved my life and my wealth.
I have healthcare. It sucks. But it’s all I can afford. The deductible is like 2,000 bucks. I was living in New Orleans but Katrina took care of that. Immediatley afterward, moving into my new home in another city I fell off the back of a U-Haul and broke my leg. Nothing too serious (I’m young and healthy). But I couldn’t work for 8 weeks and my bills were over 4 grand. I’m just now paying off the credit cards I had to use to pay the hospitals. I don’t even want to know how much the rates jacked up what I really paid. For a fuckin’ broken leg. I hope I don’t get a tumor. Fuck these people.
Thank you for writing this. For the past few days I’ve been extremely puzzled about who these people are and what they want? You don’t have to be Republican or Democrat to know that our Health Care doesn’t work for most people. I was blissfully happy until last Octboer when I got laid off, got handed a $500 Cobra monthly bill and then had to quickly scramble for my own insurance when my new employer wouldn’t pay.
I’m going to admit that I have not kept up with all aspects of the health care reform debate. However, from what I’ve understood, it seems like a good idea overall. Perhaps it’s because of what I’m going through right now…
First, I’m 25 and a college graduate (cum laude even). I would consider myself a nice person overall. I try to avoid spending money frivilously. My rare “shopping sprees” usually result in a $10 pair of flats and maybe a cheap top. I drive a ’97 ford escort. Despite this, I have not been able to save much money. Despite having a degree, I only recently found a job with decent wages and one that actually provided insurance. Luckily, I was able to stay on my parents’ insurance until I turned 25.
I say “luckily” because in May, I had two seizures out of nowhere. Tests showed an almost orange-sized mass in my brain. I was warned it could bleed out at any moment, and I would likely die. Two months later, I was having brain surgery. After that, a stint in a rehab hospital to regain use of my left side.
Because this happened when my parent’s coverage was ending and my work one was just beginning, there was a scare about it being considered a pre-existing condition. Obviously, I’m still going to doctors regularly and will probably have MRIs and cat scans routinely. Someone was looking out for me because the insurance worked out to where it wouldn’t be considered as pre-existing.
Point? I was wondering the other day how someone with no insurance would have dealt with something like this. As my bills come rolling in, I wonder how I’M going to deal with it. And that’s because I have insurance!
Why do people so vehemently not want others to have access to healthcare? I just don’t get it.
@42: yes, i’ve read that. but this is a REPORTER at a NEWSPAPER asking a question to her READERS.
i want to hear these folks answer who they are, not our lefty-bubble-dweller speculation about how they’d answer this string of questions.
the stranger can provide that. i think it would make for high hilarity at the very least, and maybe change some minds.
@63 I don’t “not want others to have access to health care”. I’m just not willing to give up any of my health care in order to give it to them. Sorry. Selfish. I know. But I am happy with the quality (and even the cost) of my health care, and I’m not altruistic (or stupid) enough to jeopardize it by letting the government “compete” against it.
Take the government option out, tell me how we’re going to pay for it without raising taxes and get the bill down to a size where I can read it and understand it, and I might be able to support it.
@64 – You’re way to reasonable to hang out here…
@55 – Sorry, I didn’t pick up on your viewpoint. My comment was, perhaps, a little over the top. However, people who make stuff up and keep repeating it are liars – it may not be productive to use that word, but that doesn’t make it untrue.
I know a lot of well-meaning people believe whatever they hear on Fox News or Rush Limbaugh or whatever. They didn’t make those ideas up, but they are guilty of being gullible, of trusting people who don’t deserve their trust. I deal with this because my own mother listens to Rush daily and mindlessly adopts whatever he says. A conversation with her once or twice a month – no matter how well-reasoned or factual – does little to combat the constant media barrage she subjects herself to in her own home, the thick shell of delusion she’s wrapped herself in… we have got to get these people to wise up to the sources of information they’re using. They’re just tools, and it’s shameful.
@68… yeah, i can’t say i disagree. i’ve got a coworker who doesn’t believe climate change is influenced by humanity in a significant manner, and it drives me crazy sometimes. at the same time, i can tell that he’s a reasonably intelligent guy who is sincere in his beliefs. urgh.
@50
What is your opinion on the role of government, and why?
I’ve lived without credits cards for over 15 years because of ruined credit, due to medical bills totaling over 10 thousand dollars, amassed mostly during times when I had insurance.
it’s not gotten any better. I lived on disability for 6 years and lost it 2 years ago–not because I was no longer disabled, but because one year I inadvertantly made about 200 dollars over what I was allowed to earn on disability. It took them 2 years to discover this, so I now owe the government 24 thousand dollars for those 2 years of collected disability checks.
so I’m uninsured, earning 600 a month before taxes and eating by the grace of food stamps. I’m not stupid, and I’m not a slacker. I’m just finishing up my doctoral degree in psychology. I can only hope for eventual employment, so I can start paying off student loans as well.
Re. the protestors: I vote ignorant, not stupid. If these birthers/deathers/truthers/teabaggers/douchebaggers/godbags had just a bit of my experience with private health insurance, they’d be all for healthcare reform.
Ignoramuses.
@50 & @64 – While I disagree with you on nearly every point, you present yourself reasonably enough that I can fairly say that I’d actually need to put time that isn’t currently at my disposal into addressing your arguments piece by piece.
As to the right vs. privilege argument, though, I have some thoughts: Rights and privileges aren’t something that exist in nature (unless one is a theist . . . but that’s probably another discussion; since we can’t see [G/g]od[s], I think we can assume arguendo that rights and privileges are social constructs). Enumerating benefits and advantages as one or the other is the primary mode of distinction.
Given that, in what way does health care represent a privilege any more than, say, privilege of having person and property defended by cops, having paved roads or sidewalks (or roads and sidewalks kept in repair)?
Moreover, what, essentially, would you have to say for those who work full time but would find the 20% uncovered portion of near annual surgeries for congenital thyroid problems (for instance) or the $1000/month for COBRA untenable, perhaps because they work in the arts and work subsistence level jobs to keep that up, or have outstanding student loan debt, or debt from old medical expenses, etc.? In other words, if effort does not equal payoff (and in my experience, it often doesn’t), are you satisfied with saying that the cost of bad luck should be poor health?
@50
I and my partner currently have health insurance that, while expensive, is good. However, that doesn’t prevent me from supporting a government-run option. For one thing, you should be smart enough to understand that more competition in the health insurance industry will bring costs down. And, as stated numerous times by President Obama, I will have the choice to keep what we have or switch. Sounds like a win-win to me.
“Have they never been sick?”
Filter everything they say and think through “FUCK YOU, I’VE GOT MINE”, even if they don’t. They would rather see others die if it gave them the satisfaction that the money and resources would go back to them (which it wouldn’t.) Their attitudes are a blight on the world.
@45- Manipulating stupid people is easy if you’re completely immoral, like Rush or Coulter or Glen Beck. It’s harder when you actually present complex ideas.
@ JF,
I work for a private health insurance company and I’d like to say you are naive. The minute you develop a chronic illness, you’re private insurance is going to claim ‘pre-existing condition’ and drop you from the rolls. You’re only 28 years old. You probably have only ever used your insurance for acute, short-term illnesses and injuries. Over the years you (and your employer) will pay in around $760-1000 per month for health insurance coverage. Guess what? That’s money flushed down the toilet because when you develop a long term, chronic condition they’re going to dump your ass. And you sound a little smug about being able to afford COBRA, so let me clue you in on a little secret: The time you were between jobs probably wasn’t very long. The next time you probably won’t be so lucky. Eventually you’re going to run out of money to cover that….unless you’re wealthy. Even then, medical bills can be very, very expensive and eat up savings very quickly. A single course of cancer treatment is around $1 million dollars and most people need 2-3 courses. Surgery? Tens of thousands of dollars and you may not be able to work for weeks or months afterwards. And if you happen to let your insurance lapse for more than 6 months, guess what? You may never get private health insurance again. You’ll be un-insurable.
Right now you’re smug ’cause you skated. You don’t know what real illness and real hardship is….but you will. You will.
AMEN. Thank you for this post. I have the same questions every time I see these douchebags on TV.
JF, You Gotta Be Kidding Me,
You are all for a rational debate about this issue but it is kind of hard to see what argument you have other than ‘I am happy with my gold-plated health care and screw everyone else.’ Health care premiums have increased roughly 5 times the rate of inflation over the past decade, this country pays nearly double the next nearest developed country per-capita for health care, 45 million people are not covered and private insurers spend somewhere around a third of the money they take in trying to find ways to deny coverage to people who are actually sick. To argue that the private sector is doing a good job, or is better equipped than government to provide efficient health care, given these facts, is just plain irrational, sorry. This is an argument based on ideology rather than reality.
JF and YGBKM: I have a wonderful niece, a college junior. She was diagnosed with a rare brain tumor her freshman year. Fortunately, she was covered by my sister’s insurance, though the cost of the surgery has been a big burden on her and her husband. What really scares me is thinking of how my niece will ever be able to provide coverage for herself and her necessary follow-up care when she graduates. You know, with that brain tumor and all. Which I think is what they call a pre-existing condition.
But, I’m so glad you are happy with yourselves and your coverage. Apparently you have neither friends nor family even slightly less fortunate than you.
They’re racists. Sorry, but it is as simple as that. As Krugman said:
“…they’re probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing,… than to who he is. That is, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.”
Remember when Janeane Garofalo was widely criticized for saying that the teabaggers were a bunch of racists? I didn’t think she was being fair, at the time. I didn’t remember seeing any references to race on their signs, or in their speech, so I thought that she had crossed a line. But I’ve changed my mind. None of this vitriol would exist if Obama wasn’t black. Do you really think these people feel that strongly about the insurance industry? That is not why they show up at town hall. They probably don’t even know it themselves, but this is an expression of an ugly, and still present, tradition of lynching in the U.S., just dressed up as outrage for whatever policy the man is advancing.
Of course, their rage is being fomented and given direction by larger, non-racist entities and interests. They’re being used, for sure. But that doesn’t change the fact that the issue burning in their guts is one about race.
Paid shills of the Republican party or the Insurance lobbyists. Anyone there who isn’t on the party payroll is probably is probably racist and just wants a chance to rant about the big scary black man running the country.
I have news for those of you who don’t want to pay for the health coverage of others. You already are. You’re just paying more than ten times as much for it. The current system, in which the 30% of people with no health insurance wait until they’re very ill and then go to an emergency room, is absurdly expensive compared with the cost of basic preventive care.
I have, on several occasions in my life, had no coverage at all. I have gone untreated from car accidents, concussions, and once from a cracked leg because there was no way I could pay thousands of dollars for my care. One of my brothers, who was working for a company that did not provide health insurance, was shot by a lunatic. Two years later, he had to declare bankruptcy because of continuing medical bills. He got great treatment in Harborview’s emergency room and from their surgeons, but there was no way he was ever going to be able to pay for any of it. So guess who paid Harborview’s bills for his five surgeries? We ALL did.
Then again, I think some of the “I’ve Got Mine, Jack” crowd would just as soon my brother had been left on the street to bleed to death.
@64- You’re not an asshole for having AN opinion, you are an asshole for having THAT opinion.
wow! first, i wonder why people don’t treat others with dignity on this board, particularly given that most of us seem to be in favor of health care for all. health care but not dignity i guess, huh.
secondly, i wonder why we can’t expect the government’s involvement in the health care situation to PRIMARILY be regulation of the cost of insurance, (particularly the malpractice insurance medical institutions pay which gets shuffled along to the patient in the cost of their treatment) allowing MOST people to be able to afford reasonable protection if they choose to prioritize and spend their monies in that way.
why isn’t government protecting it’s citizens from exploitation in this way?
Ok calling all experts out there.
Is there ANY other country in the world that even has the gall to use health care coverage and pre-existing condition in the same sentence other than the US of cat-shit crazy A?
How come this never comes up ANYWHERE?
Life is a pre-existing condition that will result in death.
So I should never give you any coverage, you’re just gonna die anyways. I have seriously never heard of any other country trying to get away with this kind of fine print, legal SLEAZE. Someone please prove me wrong.
I can’t think of any country in Europe that would ever even try to get away with anything as blatantly evil as that – with a straight face + a shit eating grin.
I revoke my previous statement. The majority of the anti-health insurance reform folks are stupid.
30 comments before someone actually bothered to answer (@31).
How to polarize at the expense of real discussion: end with “just incredibly stupid” in bold. Kickstart a hundred non-answer comments alleging racism, stupidity, and far right conspiracies.
That’s up with yelling to disrupt town hall meetings, and with boycotting stores run by authors of op-eds you disagree with — good for silencing the other side, bad for a conversation or progress.
You’re all nimrods. Funny how you jump around all indignant when real people oppose your views. Scaowed? Poor babies. Meet the public, whose collective cries know better than y’all.
think of socialized medicine as an “all-you-can-eat buffet.” it costs more than you would pay if you were to order your own meal, but hell who cares? you can eat as much as you want! so you go get your plate, you wait in lines and load up your plate (pffft who am i kidding? go back for seconds!), and thirty minutes later you’re keeled over in your chair from how awful the food was. you muster up enough strength to get home and spend the rest of the night on the toilet. and you know that its true.
moral of the story: when you pay for and produce something to meet the needs of the quantity, you lose a chunk of the quality. common sense.
our healthcare system isn’t working. but socialized medicine will make it worse.