Me and my Master are considering bringing another person into our play, but I’m insanely jealous. He vowed to be mine always, and I trust him. But I don’t want anybody else to touch him. How can I get used to this idea?
Okay, back up: It’s not a given that anyone can just “get used to” being nonmonogamous. Some people simply aren’t wired for polyamory or swinging. The fact that you’re having a D/s relationship is immaterial—if you want monogamy, no one can (successfully) order you to feel otherwise.
But, obviously, people in monogamous relationships also experience jealousy, so working to overcome it can benefit anyone. We romanticize jealousy as if it proves love, but saying “I’m jealous” really means “I’m intensely afraid that I’m going to be abandoned by my partner.” No one wants that—but for some people, that primal fear is more frequently activated. It can be something as trivial as a look or a smile your partner gives someone else or a platonic friendship. Whatever the trigger is, your animal brain—which equates abandonment with death—responds as if there were a snarling tiger in the room. It shuts down higher mental functions and dumps adrenaline into your system for a fight-or-flight response. Whether you’re polyamorous or monogamous, that’s not pleasant, and it’s certainly not useful in resolving relationship issues peacefully.
I’ve had flickers of jealousy, but they’re always brief and easily soothed. However, I know how it feels to be deeply fearful of something that other people regard neutrally or even pleasurably: I’m afraid of flying. I had a bad experience as a child, and after that, simply being on a smoothly flying plane was an exercise in barely restrained terror. If there was any turbulence whatsoever, I disintegrated into shuddering, uncontrollable tears and nausea. When people said, “Just calm down, there’s nothing to be afraid of,” it made me so angry that I wanted to hit them. You cannot soothe people with rational discussion when their animal brains are telling them they’re about to die.
Now, I could have chosen to avoid travel by plane, but I didn’t want that limitation. I tried antianxiety pills, but the medication left me groggy yet still terrified. So I underwent both cognitive therapy and a series of hypnosis sessions to treat my phobia. The combination of all three worked. I’m still somewhat nervous, but not unmanageably so.
Planes still do the same things they’ve always done; I just changed how my animal brain responds to it. So here is my advice about conquering jealousy: Don’t look at it as a problem that’s solved by changing other people’s behavior. Regard it as a phobia and seek help from people who specialize in treating them. Only when you can view the world of nonmonogamy without that intense, crippling fear can you decide if you want to venture into that territory. 
Wonderful advice! I’m wired for manogamy, have no desire to be in an open relationship, thankfully neither does my partner. However, my abandonment issues nearly did us in. With help of a cognative behavioral therapist I’m overcoming this phobia of abandonment, it really works, highly recomended!
I have to respectfully disagree. Telling people to seek therapy for jealousy treats jealousy as a bad word, something to ‘treat’ as a mental imbalance. There are many people who experience jealousy, and it can be healthy. For those who do not know how to control their ACTIONS that stem from their jealousy, sometimes it’s a matter of overriding our “training.” We are taught from a young age to be jealous, and everything in our society reaffirms that. Maybe trying other tactics(developing mantras, looking at the big picture, rethinking the concept of owning another person, actively trying to retrain your brain) might be a better approach.
@letseatcake
Developing mantras, looking at the big picture, rethinking the concept of owning another person, actively trying to retrain your brain is actually what cognitive behavioural therapy IS.
@letseatcake:
“…We are taught from a young age to be jealous…”
Seriously? That’s a remarkably specious statement.
Nobody gets taught to be ‘jealous’ any more than we are taught from a young age how to be ‘happy’, ‘angry’ ‘bored’ ‘frightened’ or anything else in the natural spectrum of human emotion.
Those states are wired in. What causes them and how they are managed can vary widely from human to human, but they’re certainly not something we get ‘taught’.
Jealousy is a very basic, primal emotion, and examples of its cause and effect can be found a lot lower down on the food chain than us.
Everyone experiences jealousy, without being taught how to do it. What -can- be taught is how we manage the effect it has upon us and how we choose to *act* upon it. Just as Matisse says.
It is not legit to compare sexual/romantic jealousy to fear of flying.
The latter will not protect you from harm, the former often will.
@MissQuickley – fair enough. But these things can at least be attempted on our own, not just, “Your jealous? Get therapy.”
@Cordwainer – When I say “taught,” I mean that everyone around us (and every form of media) applauds out-of-control jealousy. All the people we know who freak out if their partner even looks at another person. We are affirmed in our jealousy (the bad kind).
Jealousy IS hardwired to a certain degree, yes, for self-preservation purposes. But there are a lot of unhealthy ideas that are pounded into our heads, and many many people never unlearn them. Those who choose to sometimes have to fight it really hard, or, “unlearn it.”
In a nutshell, I’m saying that just because someone is jealous, it doesn’t mean they need therapy.
Jealousy as a primal emotion? Someone failed human development…
Human development? Hell, some people failed elementary reading comprehension. Nowhere did MM say “if you’re jealous you automatically need therapy.” That’s just @letseatcake’s own defensiveness. Someone asked her for advice overcoming insane jealousy. I’m not saying ever being jealous = insane but the person’s use of that word suggests me to me that it’s not just a question of taking a few deep breaths.
What’s so terrible about therapy anyway? All you do is go talk, for chrissake. They aren’t going to dunk you in cold water or shock you like in Wolfman. (Although MM might like that.)
Great column, Matisse. Jealousy is a wasted, unproductive emotion that serves no useful function.
@5- how does jealousy protect one from harm? (or fear of flying, for that matter) All jealousy ever produces is misery for the owner- the object will do as they will do, regardless of the emotional state of the jealous person.
In my experience, jealousy has broken up two relationships that needn’t have happened if the emotion hadn’t overwhelmed the reason and sanity of the jealous. Just sayin’.
@Larkshead
“So here is my advice about conquering jealousy: Don’t look at it as a problem that’s solved by changing other people’s behavior. Regard it as a phobia and seek help from people who specialize in treating them.”
That’s pretty clear, to me. You’re jealous, get therapy.
And nothing is wrong with therapy, at all. I’m usually the one suggesting it, but usually for people with severe problems. Not jealousy that might be able to be overcome by trying. MM didn’t give any “home remedies,” or any suggesstions at all.
@letseatcake No, she didn’t say the VERY VERY trite and obvious thing of how “gee maybe you should just try harder to get over it”. Because anyone who’s so dumb that they think “omigod I had a brief instant of jealousy, I should have myself committed!” is too stupid to have sex anyway. Everyone knows that you can just try to get over shit, they don’t need to be told that.
Plus she’s not Dr Drew. What makes you think she even has any “home remedies”? And why the fuck should she? She’s a dominatrix, she spanks people for a living. I like CT fine but it’s just fluff. You people are taking this shit way too serious.
Yep, regarding the comment that jealousy might have a function where fear of flying doesn’t — when?
I haven’t heard of jealousy not preventing anyone “straying” who was likely to, although perhaps that feeling of paranoia could tip you off to things in the relationship not being as it should. However, I really don’t get jealous, and I certainly manage to sense when a relationship is getting screwed up. I’ve also broken up with more than one person because of their irrational paranoia about something I had -no- intentions of doing.
Therapy to tackle chronic and irrational jealousy sounds like a good strategy to me. Why on earth wouldn’t learning tools to deal with it be a useful exercise?
@kungfujew: Jealousy doesnt protect. Not being jealous doenst mean you let others treat you bad, or that you wont see signt of betrayal and act on them.
Jealousy is basically “fear”, and the only time fear helps is if you dont have time to think about what action is the best choice, like for example during a saber-tooth-tiger attack.
I think what it comes down to is how the jealousy is manifesting itself in your life. If it’s a normal ping of “damn I wish they’d stop flirting with my partner” then deal. My husband has to sit through entire restaurants flirting with me, and he does so with a smile (and great sex once we’re home). However if it’s causing you to lash out either verbally or physically, then yes, get therapy. It’s fairly normal to be jealous to some extent, it shows you have a fear of losing the person you’re with (and if you don’t have a mild level of that then perhaps your relationship needs evaluation). I don’t mean in the sense that you are constantly worried about losing them, but in a way that you can recognize that you wouldn’t like losing them, so you recognize threats when they come around.
There is a way to do cognitive-behavioral therapy on yourself, at home, for the price of an old paperback from half.com. Try Dr. David Burns’s book “Feeling Good.” It’s a popular and enduring book for good reason. Dr. Burns explains how thought distortions, such as: “If my partner wants us to play with another person, then that means he doesn’t want me any more because I’m no good so he’ll abandon me and that means I’ll absolutely die” make us unhappy and restrict our options in life. The book teaches you to step back and evaluate when your thoughts are getting out of control. There are some fun exercises, too. It’s a bit superficial, but it has really helped calm me down when fear was paralyzing me. And as Matisse wrote, once you get past the paralyzing fear, you can decide for yourself whether non-monogamy is your thing or not.
I, for one, was relieved to see someone suggest therapy for jealousy. For someone who can recognize that they are acting irrationslly, and therefore canot control their own actions, jealousy is terrifying. Being told that there is something they can do to treat the problem, rather than just “get over it” makes it easier to do something about it. Real treatment happens before, after and inbetween episodes, not in the heat of an argument.
The process of feeling the jealousy, understanding where it is coming from, and experiencing the outcome of NOT being abandoned sounds like it’s own personal cognitive therapy. But certainly if someone was having abandonment issues to the severity of a phobia like Matisse’s, I think we would all look to therapy as a good idea.
Good column.
@ 9, 12, 13:
Somethings get a bad rap in our culture based more on Zeitgeist than anything else. MM states “we romanticize jealousy as if it proves love.” I don’t agree with MM here. I think more people think poorly of jealousy than romanticize it. Jealousy is an emotionally disempowering feeling, and anything which makes us feel so dismepowered must automatically be bad, right?
I don’t think there is anything inherently romantic about jealousy, but I do think that in certain contexts, it can protect us from harm, provided we act accordingly on the feeling.
There are plenty of situations where we feel jealous not because we are controlling, insecure or paranoid, but simply because our lovers are doing things which give us good reason to be jealous. If we recognize this feeling and its basis, we can (1) Avoid even greater future heartbreak at the hands of the inconsiderate lover (a role I have played, so I’m not venting or finger-pointing here); and/or (2)Be motivated to tell our lover “Hey, that’s not OK. That hurt my feelings.”
MM says of jealousy: “Don’t look at it as a problem that’s solved by changing other people’s behavior.” Well, that’s good advice if you are talking to a straight guy who gets jealous when his girlfriend dances with her gay male friends. It’s terrible advice when you are talking to a monogamy-oriented woman/gay man whose master (presumably also lover) wants to bring a third party into their sex life.
It’s not irrational “animal brain” thought to fear that the “master” may end up giving less attention and affection to his original lover in this situation- it’s very logical (yes some people pull off the poly thing with no hurt feelings or shifting loyalties, but this is rare, and probably especially rare when one of the original two started off as unwilling).
MM says this person should “regard [jealousy] as a phobia and seek help from people who specialize in treating [phobias].” First, while phobia could presumably take the form of jealousy, this person is not suffering from a phobia. A phobia is an irrational fear. For reasons discussed above, this person’s jealousy is rational- they fear that their man banging/dominating a third party may weaken their bond. Second, even assuming their jealousy is a phobia, how many therapists are qualified to administer treatment which makes it easier to accept your man getting it on with another person when that’s not really what you want? And who licensed these people?
My comments are geared more towards my experiences as a non-monogamous wife to a dominant partner. Any playmates who are submissive have, in my personal experience, tended to be EXTREMELY clingy. So before you open up your Master to new subs, please heed this word of advice and know that “thirds” need to know their place is in the playtime, not all day every day, and that they are not going to be “owned”, and they are not allowed to push for more than EITHER of you is willing to give. If you end up conquering your jealousy to agree to some degree of openness, draw your boundaries very tightly and stick to them very calmly and rationally, and make sure when anyone knows that what they did wasn’t ok with you. Don’t get pushed around in the sequence. It’s very intoxicating for a Master to have a new person willing to submit to his every whim, and it’s equally intoxicating for the new submissive to have a new dominant in his/her life. I am rarely ever jealous but this is one scenario of which I remain wary.
I don’t think the word “jealousy” describes an actual emotion – “primal” or otherwise. *Anxiety* is an emotion and that’s what jealousy is. Anxiety rooted in fear of being abandoned, being replaced, becoming obsolete, etc. Even if this person decides that she/he wants monogamy or if she/he has “good reason” to believe that she/he may be abandoned, replaced, etc., being plagued by anxiety sure ain’t gonna help solve the problem! Therapy and/or medication can help cut back on the anxiety so that the person can function well enough to address the underlying issues.
Or… Date people who are also monogamous.
@subwlf Being monogomous doesn’t protect you from jealousy. Lots of very insecure people falsely accuse husbands/wives of roving eye.
22: Do we need to believe that jealousy is either always good or always bad?
Yes, some insecure people falsely accuse their lovers of having roving eyes. That’s bad, but it has little to do with the situation of this person MM has so poorly advised here. Their man has stated his desire to have sex (or at least dominate) a 3rd party, so they are not “falsely” accusing him of anything. For them, it’s not that monogamy will protect them from jealousy, but rather that jealousy will protect them from unwanted polyamory- hardly a situation which calls for therapy.
@20: “being plagued by anxiety sure ain’t gonna help solve the problem!”
Nice try, Dr. Freud. Anxiety involves a sort of general fear that you’re not sure what to do about because you don’t even know where it comes from or what it’s about.
This person is not suffering from anxiety but rather a specific articulable fear- that a poly relationship will weaken their bond with their man. There’s no need to try to strip this down to being a reflection of some other, deeper fear (as would be useful when analyzing MM’s fear of flying) because it is in and of itself a reasonable thing to fear.
“Therapy and/or medication can help cut back on the anxiety so that the person can function well enough to address the underlying issues.”
Saying to your man: “No, that’s not cool- I don’t want you banging/dominating another person because that would make me feel really bad” is actually a quite functional way of dealing with these feelings.
In fairness to MM, she did not seek this person out to prosthelytize polygamy; they wrote to her asking how they could “get used to this idea.” I just think more responsible advice would have been: “You probably won’t get used to it, so don’t do it.”
@kungfujew Once again, reading-comprehension-fail. First paragraph says: it’s not for everyone, don’t do it if you don’t want to. And last sentence clearly states that you can’t make a choice unless you’re not afraid, which is exactly correct. A choice where you’re scared of one of the two possible answers is not a choice at all.
I’m not polyamorous but I hate half-baked ideas. Whatever happened to intellectual rigor in this country?
@kungfujew Most of your arguments only make sense if you believe that monogamy is inherently better than polyamory. The truth is that monogamy works best for some people and polyamory works best for others. Feeling jealous can occur in either arrangement. I never said that the letter-writer had no right to negotiate a monogamous partnership. That would be ridiculous. I just believe that coming from a place of fear is no way to negotiate *any* style of relationship.
There are many rational reasons to be monogamous. Feeling threatened, scared, or jealous don’t make that list.
@25:
“Once again, reading-comprehension-fail. First paragraph says: ‘it’s not for everyone, don’t do it if you don’t want to.'”
No, not exactly. That is a sloppy paraphrase. Here is what the first paragraph says:
“It’s not a given that anyone can just ‘get used to’ being nonmonogamous. Some people simply aren’t wired for polyamory or swinging. The fact that you’re having a D/s relationship is immaterial—if you want monogamy, no one can (successfully) order you to feel otherwise.”
MM acknowledges that some people will never be OK being poly, but does not, as you incorrectly believe, advise “don’t do it if you don’t want to,” but rather that the change from “not OK with poly” to “OK with poly” can’t come from an external source. The difference between the actual text and your misreading is that MM is leading into how to become more OK with being poly, rather than saying that if you are not OK with it, you should simply stick to your guns. Again, in fairness to MM, this is what the person was asking for.
“And [the] last sentence clearly states that you can’t make a choice unless you’re not afraid, which is exactly correct. A choice where you’re scared of one of the two possible answers is not a choice at all.”
Well, we agree that this is the gist of MM’s last statement, but I’m not sure how this paraphrasing constitutes a critique of my reading comprehension skills. I understood this to be her position but just don’t agree. Some fears are legit and making a decision based on a legit fear is legit. This whole “all fear is bad” baloney is just a new age version of Catholic guilt making people feel bad about having perfectly natural feelings.
“I’m not polyamorous but I hate half-baked ideas.”
Right. It’s “half-baked” that I think it’s legit for a monogamy-oriented person not to want to share their lover with a 3rd party, and that I think nixing this idea might be a better plan FOR THEM than getting therapy. I’m a real crackpot.
“Whatever happened to intellectual rigor in this country?”
Crrssshhhh! Did you hear that stone hitting your glass house?
@26:
“@kungfujew Most of your arguments only make sense if you believe that monogamy is inherently better than polyamory.”
I don’t know about “inherently better,” but it’s certainly better for people who don’t like the idea of sharing their lover.
“The truth is that monogamy works best for some people and polyamory works best for others.”
I acknowledged that @ 18: “yes some people pull off the poly thing with no hurt feelings or shifting loyalties, but this is rare, and probably especially rare when one of the original two started off as unwilling.”
“Feeling jealous can occur in either arrangement.”
Yeah, I never said that monogamy was a cure for jealousy; just that a person who is not predisposed to polyamory is probably going to feel more jealousy in a ploy relationship than a monogamous one.
“I never said that the letter-writer had no right to negotiate a monogamous partnership. That would be ridiculous.”
And I don’t think I said you said that.
“I just believe that coming from a place of fear is no way to negotiate *any* style of relationship.”
Assuming you are even willing to admit that some fears may be legitimate, are people with legitimate fears not supposed to negotiate their relationships? And what fantasy world are all you people living in where people have relationships utterly devoid of fear?
“There are many rational reasons to be monogamous. Feeling threatened, scared, or jealous don’t make that list.”
And now the circular logic comes back around. Because jealousy and fear are inherently irrational, they can’t possible constitute rational reasons to be monogamous.
“I don’t know about ‘inherently better,’ but it’s certainly better for people who don’t like the idea of sharing their lover.”
Not necessarily. I struggled a lot with jealousy when I first embraced polyamory. But I always knew that monogamy wasn’t for me so I worked through it and I hardly ever feel jealous, anymore, and if I do, it’s manageable.
“some people pull off the poly thing with no hurt feelings or shifting loyalties, but this is rare”
Really? Care to cite a source for this proclamation? I know plenty of poly folks who are doing just fine.
“a person who is not predisposed to polyamory is probably going to feel more jealousy in a ploy relationship than a monogamous one.”
Perhaps, although not always. Some monogamous people get jealous of EVERYTHING. Then again, I think jealousy is an indicator that some issue needs to be discussed and evaluated. Whenever I feel jealous, it teaches me something about myself that I need to work on – perhaps that I need to improve my communication with my partner(s) about my needs and desires. So I guess you’re right. It’s not always bad. I’ve never viewed jealousy as the end of the world, which is why I don’t demand monogamy simply because I might feel jealous.
Look, I don’t think that operating from a place of fear is ideal in relationships. I think fear and anxiety cloud the issues and impede clear thinking.
Saying something like, “I want to be monogamous because I need a certain amount of time with my partner and I’m not willing to give up any of that time to other partners,” is fine. But saying, “OMG, OMG, OMG, I’ll explode into a million pieces if anyone touches my partner!” is just silly.
Is that you, Joe?
@kingfujew After carefully evaluating your statements, I take it all back. It is completely reasonable for you to be fearful that your girlfriend is cheating on you. In fact, I’d just assume it.
I’m not so sure jealousy has only one cause, fear of abandonment, as MM claims. I have no fear that my partner will leave me for another person, not because I live in some fantasy where that could never happen, but because I’m aware and at peace with the impermanent nature of all relationships. What bothers me about polyamory is the possibility of another woman bearing my husband’s child. I would definitely feel resentful and wildly jealous of that woman. Even if she released my partner from all responsibility for the child or had an abortion it would somehow not be alright with me.
@31:
Nice “intellectual rigor” there, Don Rickles. Don’t quit your day job. And a personal snap like that is often the last resort for those who can’t maintain a reasonable discussion.
Oh, wait. I made a personal snap back at you. Never mind.
@29:
[me earlier]: I don’t know about ‘inherently better,’ but it’s certainly better for people who don’t like the idea of sharing their lover.”
“I struggled a lot with jealousy when I first embraced polyamory. But I always knew that monogamy wasn’t for me”
OK, fair enough, but you started from a real position of internal conflict. Part of you wanted to be poly but part of you didn’t. I guess we should assume that since the advice-seeker wrote to MM asking how they could get used to being poly, they have the same type of internal conflict.
However, not all similar internal conflicts have relatively equal pressure on both sides. Here, I get the impression that the advice-seeker has much more negative feelings about being poly than positive. I am not anti-poly and do not think I am projecting here. Look closely at their language. They don’t say: “I’m really conflicted because monogamy is not for me but I also struggle with feelings of jealousy” (which was your situation). In fact, they say nothing pro-poly at all, which gives me the impression that only the “master” is interested in being poly, and the “sub” advice-seeker is just trying to find a way to play along despite their desire to stay monogamous.
“so I worked through it and I hardly ever feel jealous, anymore, and if I do, it’s manageable.”
OK. On the off-hand chance that the advice-seeker is still reading, how did you do this? I’m guessing that you did not get therapy.
[me earlier]: “some people pull off the poly thing with no hurt feelings or shifting loyalties, but this is rare”
“Really? Care to cite a source for this proclamation? I know plenty of poly folks who are doing just fine.”
OK, you got me. I don’t have a source for this. I do know that none of those 60s/70s communes with partner-swapping lasted, especially after kids came into the picture, but this is not directly applicable to a modern poly situation.
Can we at least agree that the complexities involved with being successfully poly take a bit more relationship skills than being successfully monogamous? In other words, I’m not saying “this can’t work so don’t try it”, but rather “this is really tricky so don’t try it unless you’re sure you want it.”
[me earlier]: “a person who is not predisposed to polyamory is probably going to feel more jealousy in a poly relationship than a monogamous one.”
“Perhaps, although not always.”
Yeah. That’s why I said “probably.”
“Some monogamous people get jealous of EVERYTHING.”
Keep your eye on the ball here. We are talking about a specific monogamous person here. They have given no indication that they are jealous of “everything”, only that the idea of someone else touching their man makes them jealous- again, a perfectly rational feeling which does not require therapy. Not a phobia.
“Then again, I think jealousy is an indicator that some issue needs to be discussed and evaluated.”
Yeah, sometimes. People can feel jealous for a variety of bad reasons. This is good fodder for a general discussion about jealousy. I do not think it applies to this person’s specific situation.
“Whenever I feel jealous, it teaches me something about myself that I need to work on – perhaps that I need to improve my communication with my partner(s) about my needs and desires. So I guess you’re right. It’s not always bad.”
Do you think it possible that sometimes jealousy can teach us something about ourselves which we do not need to work on? In this case, would the advice-seeker be “working on” their communication with their “master” if they just said “Hey, I’m sorry, I can’t do the poly thing”?
“I’ve never viewed jealousy as the end of the world, which is why I don’t demand monogamy simply because I might feel jealous.”
OK, it sounds like you are happy with your choice. I hope that you can understand those who may make different choices.
“Look, I don’t think that operating from a place of fear is ideal in relationships. I think fear and anxiety cloud the issues and impede clear thinking.”
We agree that being fearful is not ideal in a relationship. Where we appear to disagree is that you seem to think that the onus is on the person experiencing the fear to somehow make themselves less afraid, while I think there is sometimes an onus on the other person not to do things which result in their lover feeling fear; or at least to respect those fearful feelings.
“Saying something like, ‘I want to be monogamous because I need a certain amount of time with my partner and I’m not willing to give up any of that time to other partners, is fine. But saying, ‘OMG, OMG, OMG, I’ll explode into a million pieces if anyone touches my partner!’ is just silly.”
First, I don’t really see much of a distinction between these two positions, other than that the second statement is more honest and not coded in modern yakkety-yak.
Second, people have silly feelings in relationships all the time. Respecting your lover’s silly feelings is part of the deal, as long as long as you can stand doing so. If the advice-seeker’s “master” can’t accommodate the advice-seeker’s silly feelings and just has to be poly, I respect that and wish him well with his future lovers. Really. He is not being silly and even if he were, it wouldn’t matter- he’s entitled to indulge his silly feelings as long as no one gets burned.
@kungfujew
“However, not all similar internal conflicts have relatively equal pressure on both sides.”
I can tell you from experience that jealousy can be overcome. It’s not a fun feeling and it’s not productive. One’s inclination towards monogamy, polyamory, swinging, etc., has nothing to do with jealousy. It has to do with what one values in romantic relationships. Only when fear and anxiety are gone (or at least manageable) can one make a clear, informed, rational decision about what style of relationship(s) they want. I suspect you think otherwise, but this is my informed opinion, having more than a little experience with both monogamy and polyamory.
“OK. On the off-hand chance that the advice-seeker is still reading, how did you do this? I’m guessing that you did not get therapy.”
I wish! If I could have afforded therapy to get through my early-poly challenges, I would have done it in a heartbeat (with a qualified, poly-friendly therapist). Seeking therapy doesn’t mean that someone is flawed or sick. Sometimes it just helps normal people meet their goals.
“Where we appear to disagree is that you seem to think that the onus is on the person experiencing the fear to somehow make themselves less afraid, while I think there is sometimes an onus on the other person not to do things which result in their lover feeling fear”
Yep. I agree with Matisse’s advice in the final paragraph of this column. That’s one of the joys of polyamory to me: less focus on controlling each others’ behavior.
“First, I don’t really see much of a distinction between these two positions, other than that the second statement is more honest and not coded in modern yakkety-yak.”
*blink* Excuse me? You don’t see a difference between rationally deciding one’s values and then communicating them appropriately vs. freaking out and letting fear control oneself?
“Can we at least agree that the complexities involved with being successfully poly take a bit more relationship skills than being successfully monogamous?”
Nope. I think that is a common misconception. It entirely depends on the people involved. For me, monogamy requires skills that are beyond my comprehension, much less mastery. Polyamory is, for me, simpler, easier, and more convenient. For others, the opposite is true.
And as far as “respecting” jealousy? Oh, hell, no. I respect my *partners* and will make every effort to comfort them if they are upset for any reason, but I think jealousy stems from a place of pathetic insecurity – and that’s OK, we’re all pathetically insecure in some ways. But I do not *respect* anyone’s jealousy such as to change my behavior in a way that would disrespect my relationships with my other partners. And I expect the same consideration from anyone whom I choose to date.
Look, I don’t think we have enough information from the advice-seeker to decide whether or not polyamory or monogamy is the right choice for her/him. Ultimately, only that person can decide for herself/himself… with a clear, rational mind that is not overcome by fear.
OK, fair enough, and I will defer to you on most of this poly stuff as you have done it and I have not.
Jealousy is an adaptive behavior that confers reproductive advantage. A simple evolutionary, sociobiological model of why jealousy evolved is simple.
Imagine for both females and males:
There are two females, one is jealous and one isn’t. The jealous female has exclusive sexual access to her male and he only gathers resources for her and their offspring. The non-jealous female’s mate screws other females, splits his resources between her and other females, and is more likely to spread STDs among his female partners. The non-jealous female is more likely to end up sick with disadvantaged offspring.
There are two males, one is jealous and one isn’t. The jealous male can rest assured that all the resources he shares with his mate and her offspring are being devoted to offspring that carry his genes. The non-jealous male may end up spending all his time raising another male’s offspring and, like his non-jealous female counterpart, is more likely to get STDs or other communicable diseases from his polyamorous partner. The non-jealous male is more likely to end up sick raising another male’s kids.
Jealousy helps everyone avoid cuckoldry, neglected offspring, unborn offspring, and disease.
As improved apes and have birth control, condoms, paternity tests, negotiation, and consent. The most advantageous strategy from an evolutionary standpoint is to be a cheater in a monogamous relationship, enjoying exclusivity with many partners, to maximize the number of your offspring if you are a male or maximize the resources you get from males if you are female. Part of our ape improvements are ethics, conscience, and guilt, so most of us want to have honest relationships. Being a sociopath, liar, and cheater is a different strategy, which no one admits unless they are gansta rappers.
@KremePuff
Wow, you really cracked me up there. I’ve seen shitloads of evolutionary arguments both for and against polyamory, but no one’s ever brought STIs into that strategy. You really think our “animal brains” are worried about herpes? Have you ever heard of a population of non-human primates changing their sexual customs after HIV is introduced into their social group?
And what about gay people? What are their evolutionary reasons for jealousy? We have no evidence that the writer of the letter in the column is either male or female.
I am confused by a mental leap that is being made in this discussion. That is “I’m jealous” seems to equal, in these people minds “And because of that I will successfully restrict my mates behavior.”
You’re kidding yourself thinking that. My male friends who have jealous wives/girlfriends, they try to avoid riling her up, but they still go to strip clubs and flirt with girls at the office and whatever. They just lie about it and hide it. (Maybe they do more but they’re not telling me if they do.) And I assume women do the same with jealous males.
It isn’t that I don’t understand feeling insecure, it’s that ***jealousy doesn’t get you anywhere***. If someone is gonna stray, they’re gonna stray, and all the jealousy in the world will not stop them.
If you accept the lie of jealousy that you can own another person and that your possessive qualities give you rights, then you may as well also accept the lies your lovers tell you. If you are after the Truth and not merely comfortable ignorance you will need to move through to the other side of jealousy. The good news is, its a rather nice place to be.
I am starting to get really jealous of all you people who don’t allow yourselves to be controlled by jealousy.
I love when the topic of jealousy comes up in a public discussion. As a wife in an openly non-monogamous relationship (or three!) I can say that when I feel jealousy it’s about the amount of attention that I feel I’m getting or not getting. Time is my limited commodity – not love, affection, sex, or loyalty. When I feel loved and supported, and petted enough, I have no jealousy. Once, someone tried to convince one of my loves to dump me. I wasn’t jealous over that. I was *infuriated*. I was so UN-jealous that I agreed to let this person into our lives, and it backfired because of THEIR OWN jealousy. I thought that was ironic, looking back. (this person’s words to me assured that they would never do exactly what they tried to pull) The feeling of jealousy can be used as an indicator that something feels icky. The ACTION in response to that is what is important.
@TheGoddessMaria. Thanks! Exactly! As a nonmonogamous wife in a marriage that’s lasted over 20 years, of course we’ve had our ups and downs. Sometimes one or the other of us gave a new playmate too much attention and were unfair to the primary partner. Sometimes a new playmate turned out to be unstable and overly demanding. 99% of the time, we worked shit out on our own. Once or twice, we saw a kink-friendly counselor for a session or two to tune up our communication. It’s the difference between being able to say, “Hmmm. I feel a little jealous, better figure this out together,” and saying, “Okay, my feelings of anxiety and abandonment are out of control. Let’s get help before one or the other of us does something we’ll regret.” Both are okay, it’s just a matter of knowing where you are and what’s right solution for the moment.
KungFuJew:
You said “Anxiety involves a sort of general fear that you’re not sure what to do about because you don’t even know where it comes from or what it’s about. “
So, so not true. I have very specific anxiety (fear that people, even the ones who are nice to me, secretly hate me, or, if they don’t yet, one false step on my part and they will) and I’ve got a pretty good idea about where it comes from (school, from about 3rd grade through 8th grade). Some people’s anxiety might be “a sort of general fear”, but for others it is focused and specific. Jealousy, like any other fear, can be reasonable, or it can be irrational.
Some people with anxiety have a fear of death. You say about jealousy that it might be motivated by truth. Well, fear of death is far more rooted in truth than jealousy. Your partner MIGHT break up with you, but he might not. Every single person who fears death WILL die. Now, if you barely avoid an accident on the highway and feel scared and trembly afterwards, this would qualify as a reasonable fear of death. You saw your own mortality hurtling at your in the rearview mirror, and it shook you up, but you are able to take a deep breath and continue on with your day. What makes you different from people with an anxiety about death is the length and breadth, if you will, of the fear. The anxious person’s fear is not irrational because it isn’t true; it’s irrational because it is out of proportion and makes them act in ways they otherwise would not act. Likewise, if you occasionally get twinges of jealousy from which you easily recover by remembering that the reason you are with your partner is because you are well assured of his devotion and/or rationally discussing your feelings with your partner, you do not have irrational jealousy. However, if you are beset by a fear that your partner will abandon you that makes you act in ways you would not otherwise act, I’d say that “hell yeah” that’s a form of anxiety.
…and if the writer of the letter thinks that she might be up for poly if she wasn’t so jealous, ie, if she thinks that her jealousy is colouring her behavior, then maybe her jealousy is irrational. I can’t say, because I’m not her. I don’t have irrational jealousy*, but I’m not up for a poly relationship. I wouldn’t write a letter to MM WONDERING if it was my jealousy getting in the way of being poly, though. She did, so MM’s reply was pretty good. Deal with the jealousy first, and if you still feel the same way, no poly for you. If that was the problem, then Yay! extra loving for everyone.
*I know it seems odd that I don’t have any irrational fears about abandonment by a partner, given that my anxiety is about people disliking me, but it’s really only people I’ve just met or don’t know very well. Or, worst, people at a party.
I’m not sure if this is related to me, but I do appreciate the advice nonetheless. Appreciate you addressing my question in your Podcast!
@ 44:
Bon, I discussed anxiety in response to an earlier poster @20, who stated (1) anxiety is a subset of jealousy; and (2) the advice-seeker was suffering from anxiety.
I believe that (1) jealousy can sometimes be the specific product of a generally anxious mind, but is not always the product of anxiety- a position you seem to share; and (2) the advice-seeker is not suffering from anxiety, but a reasonable fear that they may be less happy in a poly relationship.
“if you are beset by a fear that your partner will abandon you that makes you act in ways you would not otherwise act, I’d say that ‘hell yeah’ that’s a form of anxiety.”
First, the advice-seeker has not stated a fear that their man would abandon them once they went poly, only a lack of willingness to share him, which is probably based more on a fear of getting less of his affection while being kept around by him. Second, it does not appear they are acting in ways they would not otherwise act- if they are monogamy-oriented, hesitating to share their lover is consistent with their normal behavior.
“and if the writer of the letter thinks that she might be up for poly if she wasn’t so jealous, i.e., if she thinks that her jealousy is coloring her behavior, then maybe her jealousy is irrational … MM’s reply was pretty good. Deal with the jealousy first, and if you still feel the same way, no poly for you.”
MM did not address the possibility that the advice-seeker was really looking for an “out”, not simply “how to get OK with being poly” instructions. Again, I note that the advice-seeker does not really show any enthusiasm for the idea of going poly (“Me and my master are considering bringing another person into our play”) but does emphasize their negative feelings about going poly (“I’m insanely jealous … he vowed to be mine always … I don’t want anybody else to touch him”).
Yes, another word for jealousy is ego. All strategies to avoid hurt are a continuation of suffering. If hurt is arising it must be directly experienced. My experience is when the heart breaks, it breaks open.
Like when you burn your hand on an open flame, you enjoy the delicious aroma of your own burning flesh, so don’t be a coward and pull your hand away from the experience.
@kungfujew Again, your arguments only make sense if you have misconceptions about polyamory and assume that monogamy is the purest form of commitment in every situation. For example, you cite the advice-seeker’s phrase, “He vowed to be mine always,” as evidence that she/he is not comfortable with poly. What exactly does that phrase have to do with monogamy OR polyamory?
Good point, Rhythm. Your standard of “mine” in the context of a relationship does not require monogamy. I did not intend to state a universal standard.
What is being overlooked here by you and others is that this particular person in this particular relationship has their own standard for the word “mine”- one which does not include sharing their lover. They did not say “He vowed to be mine always, and I’m sure going poly will have no effect on that.”
So, I’m not being monogamy-centric here (despite my clear ignorance of poly relationships); I’m just paying closer attention to what this person is telling MM.
Let’s turn it around. Let’s say that a couple were poly but considering becoming monogamous:
If one of them wrote for advice saying something like: “I feel really conflicted about this. I really want to make a go of being monogamous and have always wondered what it would be like, but at the same time, I don’t want to give up having sex with people other than my main lover.” This is a person who needs advice on how to go monogamous.
On the other hand, what if they wrote something like: “My master and I are considering going monogamous but I’m insanely devoted to the idea of sleeping with people other than my master. He vowed that I would always be free to sleep with other people, and I don’t him to be the only one who gets to touch me. How can I get used to this idea?” This is a person who probably doesn’t want to be monogamous, and this is a person who sounds a lot like the advice-seeker here. (And on a side note, would MM advice this person to seek therapy for their “intense, crippling fear”?)
Good advice must be tailored to the specific seeker of advice. A lot of people posting here have been too busy toting the merits of their poly lifestyles or poly lifestyles in general to actually think about where this particular person is at.
For the record, I am completely in favor of people being poly if that’s what they really want.
“you have misconceptions about polyamory and assume that monogamy is the purest form of commitment”
I do not assume this. There are plenty of forms of commitment. I am sure that there are poly relationships which, overall, are far more committed than plenty of the monogamous relationships out there. I still think monogamy is a form of commitment.