My husband of eight years confessed to wanting to watch me with another man. I found a guy, and he agreed to a full STD screening—at my husband’s suggestion and our expense—so that we wouldn’t have to use condoms. I was worried about how my husband would react to the reality, but he loved every minute—he loved it a little too much. My husband had sex with me after our “guest” left. I still had our guest’s semen inside me. Is my husband gay? Is that what cuckolding is all about? He didn’t touch the other guy, but what the fuck?
Spouse Expressing
Concern Over Newly
Disclosed Sexuality
“Far from being an indication of homosexuality, your husband’s turn-on goes back to the roots of male heterosexual experience,” says Christopher Ryan, coauthor of Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality.
Before Ryan walks us through what’s so straight about your husband dipping his dick in another man’s spunk, SECONDS, let me get this off my chest: Sex at Dawn is the single most important book about human sexuality since Alfred Kinsey unleashed Sexual Behavior in the Human Male on the American public in 1948. Want to understand why men married to supermodels cheat? Why so many marriages are sexless? Why paternity tests often reveal that the “father” isn’t? Read Sex at Dawn.
Back to Ryan:
“Think about it,” says Ryan. “Why would women have evolved the capacity for slow-building
multiple orgasms while males evolved the orgasmic response of minutemen accompanied by a sudden disappearance of all interest in sex?”
Because—as Ryan and his coauthor Cacilda Jethá lay out in Sex at Dawn—for countless generations, our male and female ancestors, like our closest primate relatives (fuck-mad bonobos), engaged in multipartner sex. Females mated with multiple males, while males—so easily stimulated visually to this day—watched and waited their turn.
“Almost all of us get off on watching other people having sex,” says Ryan. “Even if our minds deny it, our bodies respond in many ways, ranging from increased genital blood flow (in both sexes) to stronger male ejaculations.”
By inviting another male into your bedroom, SECONDS, your husband—consciously or subconsciously—was inducing what’s known as “sperm competition.” Watching you have sex with another male made him more excited to have sex with you, not with the other male, and treated him to a more intense orgasm in you, not in the other male.
“So your husband’s experience was very heterosexual,” says Ryan.
I am a 24-year-old female. I’ve been in a relationship with a man for six years, on and off. I think I could spend my life with him. But I have a hard time being faithful. I have cheated on him with other men and with women. He and I are not together currently, but we maintain a long-distance sexual relationship. We say that we are going to be together someday, but he has no trust in me. I would love to be content, but I can’t seem to go very long before I get distracted. Please give me some insight!
Don’t Wanna Be A Heartbreaker
“Toward the end of Sex at Dawn,” says Ryan, “there’s a brief section called ‘Everybody Out of the Closet.’ We argue that it’s not just gay people who have to go through the sort of brutally honest self-exploration involved in coming out. We all need to go through this process—and the sooner the better.”
Here’s what you need to come out about, DWBAH: You’ll never be content in a monogamous relationship.
“It’s time to stop bullshitting yourself,” says Ryan. “You’re very young, so, with all due respect, a certain amount of bullshit is to be expected. But you sound ready to move beyond this. Before getting into a committed relationship, you owe it to yourself and to the other person to be honest about who you are, and for now at least, you’re clearly not sexually monogamous.
“And if you’ll pardon just a few words of old-guy wisdom while Dan shares his amazing platform,” Ryan continues, “many people your age misunderstand the odds of finding love in life. Few young people really appreciate that by being open about who you really are, you end up wasting much less time on relationships that are doomed from the start. In the long run, it’s much more efficient to fess up about who you are and what you’re really into from the get-go.”
Who are you, DWBAH? You’re a slut. (I mean that in the sex-positive sense! I’m a slut, too!). And what are you really into? Variety. And don’t feel bad: You didn’t fail monogamy, DWBAH, monogamy failed you—as it has failed so many others (Clinton, Edwards, Spitzer, Vitter, Ensign, et al.), and will continue to, because monogamy is unrealistic and—this is not a word I toss around lightly—unnatural.
“Maybe half of the people you’re interested in will walk away when you fess up,” says Ryan. “Let them walk! Those who don’t walk away are a much better investment of your time and energy—both of which are more limited than you can possibly realize at age 24.”
I’ve been with my partner for 10 years. I have lost all interest in sex, while my partner still has a healthy libido. We’ve agreed on a weekly “sex night.” I dread it. We could call it quits, but we have a child and we love each other. I don’t want to break up our family, so I put up with “sex night.” It sounds depressing, I know, but the alternative seems worse.
Wishes She Was Horny
“Lots of wonderful marriages aren’t particularly sexual or exclusive,” says Ryan, hinting at another alternative. “Sexual novelty was an important part of our evolution as a species. But, as you and your partner demonstrate, we don’t all respond the same way to the absence of novelty.
“You don’t say if your loss of libido pertains only to sex with your partner or to anyone at all,” Ryan continues, “but it’s a good idea to eliminate possible medical and psychological causes before concluding that it’s a purely sexual issue. Assuming it’s just about libido, I’d encourage you to find a middle ground that preserves your family and the love you share but incorporates a more comfortable sexual arrangement that doesn’t leave your partner frustrated and you dreading ‘sex night.'”
In other words, WSWH, ask yourself what’s more important: staying married or staying monogamous?
“If you can find a way to take the pressure off both of you, you might find a deeper intimacy with each other and a return of your libido,” says Ryan.
I usually end with a plug for my podcast. Not this week: Anyone who’s ever struggled with monogamy—and any honest person who ever attempted it admits to struggling—needs to read Sex at Dawn. For more about the book, and how order it, go to www.sexatdawn.com.
We all have all kinds of urges, but that doesn’t mean we have to or even should act on them. Acting in a civilized manner is also difficult and unnatural, but it is something to aspire to.
Road rage is experienced by many and can be as intense, if not more so, and more frequently experienced than any sexual attraction. Just because I may become incensed over the actions of another driver doesn’t mean that I’m going to kill them despite the short term gratification that it would bring me, but that gratification is not worth the long term consequences.
@ 89 – In a way, in a way…
It seems to me that some people are oriented towards monogamy much like any other sexual orientation. However, a lot fewer are than think they are. I think Dan’s aiming at the people in the gap, those who aren’t monogamous but who let society convince them that they were supposed to be. But I do know some people for whom polyamory seems completely foreign to their psychological makeup without necessarily condemning it.
However, I do find it to be a lovely notion that gangbangs have an evolutionary basis.
@97 I’m flattered that you care so much about my sex life and marriage 🙂
Yeah, he should have spoken to me first. Whoops, he’s human. Doesn’t mean I stop loving him. But he confessed before I had figured anything out —what kind of amazing person does that? And since you’re curious, yes, since we opened up the marriage, he does encourage me to go out and fuck other people. I’ve gotten more than he has, actually, just because it’s easier for women. Though as 95 said, it’s actually hard to find men who are any good at figuring out what I want. Does anyone have any tips on how to figure out whether men are good in bed before you fuck them?
@104 Rock on, Erica P! I was all set to defend you against the dweeb @97, but you already did it.
Re: your last question: Hmmm, I’d say dance with them, so you can see their hips in action, and try to figure out if they’re *giving* in other ways…..dang, sistah, good for you!
“and any honest person who ever attempted it admits to struggling”
Disagree.
I mean, infidelity is mostly natural, but i won’t talk about the few exceptions.
It’s hard to say it in english, it’s not my natural language, hope it’s at least undestandable. The apology of naturality is bullshit, that’s what I say.
@78 says:
“Or do you look back on your years of reading Savage Love, and realize that your partner is human, fallible, and probably still loves you? And then what do you do with that knowledge?”
Huh? If I realized that my partner is human, fallible, and probably still loves me, it would be because of what the previous 4 decades of the relationship was like (in 10 years it will be that long) and definitely not because of reading Savage Love.
@107 – LOL! Yeah, I phrased that badly. I just meant that SL helped me to see that it wasn’t necessarily the end of the world. That many men have trouble with holding up their end of monogamy, and I don’t have to bolt. Actually, wasn’t it Ann Landers who said to evaluate if you were better off with him or without him? Good advice.
Lot’s of monogamous cry babies today. Apparently saying that the common form of monogamy that many people accept today is a choice, and not something that just naturally occurs and stays, pisses them off and gets them acting like you’ve personally hurt them and have been disparaging them.
Oh noes, there are reasons why people stray, even if many choose to stay true and there are reasons to be monogamous as well, what will you do now? Yes, that’s it attack the messenger and cry out moar trying to drown out the reasons why some might cheat or even prefer non-monogamy. Just because they called it “unnatural” like all the modern benefits we like, and all the choices we willingly make and enjoy that aren’t just “naturally” there.
Congratulations to those who I’m not talking about though, those monogamous people who are secure enough to not be so overly defensive. You are probably better suited for monogamy with such fine temperaments and mature views.
It really is fortunate for authors such as those who wrote this book that America continues to do such a piss-poor job of educating children in the sciences.
I don’t care about poly v. mono. It’s the pseudo science that pisses me off.
I am a one-man girl. That is “natural” to me.
@99
If you have urges and don’t act on them you are being manogamous
I’ve never liked to share. I don’t plan on changing that any time soon 🙂
This is the first time I’ve ever been extremely disappointed in one of Dan’s columns. It’s hard to watch him stump for something that smacks of Evo-Psyc, an area that is taking a beautiful theory and ruining by not applying it properly (e.g., using circular reasoning, and by failing to provide evidence for explicit assumptions made). [Note: There are definitely other examples, even in Psyc, of research branching into new areas and making dumb mistakes because of unfamiliarity with it. Though at the same time, evolution isn’t a new idea, and the basic tenets – and logical follow-throughs – aren’t that difficult to grasp]
Some evolutionary psyc work is actually thoughtful and well-done, but a lot of work that I’ve read – especially the work on human relationships (and sexual relationships, in particular) – I’ve found to be more frustrating than enlightening.
The area has so much potential, but so much of it has been so badly wasted.
@41: I 100% believe that anything that has a genetic basis/is heritable bows down to evolution, whether it’s physiology, personality, attitudes, sexual behaviour, etc. It’s the poorly-done and poorly-argued research that wrenches me up inside… and the Russian researcher you’re thinking about is Belyaev. That breeding program makes the academic in me giddier than my own area does, haha.
@13 I wouldn’t write these two off so quickly. While they don’t have archaeology degrees, they both have strong backgrounds in both psychology AND anthropology. You don’t need to dig up fossils to be qualified to talk about evolution.
While I appreciate the fact that some folks can’t handle monogamy, I find promiscuity a shallow experience at best. It’s great as empty experiences go, but for people wired the way I am, it’s not enough. I find sluts repellent. This may well be at odds with the book Dan is plugging with such vigour, but I have never had to struggle with monogamy.
@dwbah – don’t waste yours or his time. You’re a slut. A normal man ( for my purposes heterosexual monogamous being normal) wants fidelity.
@WSWH – you will lose this man, or leave him yourself. Once the sex goes, it all goes.
Bullsheez The cuckold is Gay! He likes watching that other dudes tight buns bang his wife. he wants to find a way to be in the presence of another dudes junk and goo. she should ask why it turns him on .
I think what those feeling slighted by Dan’s comments about monogamy are missing is the fact that even in our society, which shoves monogamy down our throats, a *majority* of people cheat on their partners at least once.
Given that statistic, it’s pretty hard to defend monogamy as the “default” for human sexuality.
Now imagine if monogamy wasn’t such a highly-prized, frequently-reinforced cultural value… I suspect the rates of “true monogamy” would decline rapidly.
Get real people, this is the 21st century, not the pre-AIDS world. I hate to rain on your parade, but there is no such thing as safe, non-monogamous sex, just safer non-monogamous sex. Even using condoms doesn’t absolutely prevent the transmission of STDs. But then this is the last thing people think about, if they even consider it, when they decide to have non-monogamous sex. I really don’t care if monogamy is natural or not, I’m interested in the potential health consequences of not being monogamous. It is one thing to put your own health and life on the line, it something entirely different to put the health and life of a loved one on the line. If you can refute this reality, please do so. I have children who will eventually become sexually active and their health concerns me greatly.
I need to clarify my previous comments. As far as I’m concerned (from a health perspective), being monogamous (or sexual fidelity if you prefer) is not necessarily restricted to two individuals as long as they limit themselves to sex within the group. Although I imagine sexual fidelity (just like consensus) becomes harder as you add more people.
I am interested to read the book, but I take umbrage at the statement, “Monogamy is unnatural.” This from a gay man! Monogamy is no more unnatural than homosexuality. Like homosexuality, not everyone is going to feel it. Can the judgement.
I wish Dan would stop saying stupid shit like “monogamy is unrealistic” (it is for some; for many it’s not) and “unnatural” (so is driving a car, flying a plane, and taking penicillin)
I also hate it when he finds some “expert” – in this case Chris Ryan – and rams his tongue so far up the guy’s ass it practically comes out of his mouth.
I’m in an open relationship, and I object to the idea that monogamy is “unnatural.”
It is impossible or very difficult for most people. Like homosexuality, though, there is a minority for whom it is perfectly natural. It’s preferable for these people. In our zeal to defend the majority who find monogamy difficult, we should not stigmatize the minority who find it easy.
Dan Savage is being fairly bigoted.
@119 The problem with that is that a lot of people who are in a so-called monogamous relationship are actually being cheated on by their spouse… and their spouse is not necessarily thinking about protecting them when they’re cheating. Indeed, there are an awful lot of women being infected with HIV nowadays BY THEIR SPOUSE. I suspect the opposite also happens to some extent.
As a gay man, I try to stay away from married men as I don’t like hypocrites (personally, in my entire life – I’m 44 and I,ve been around – I have only met one bisexual male whose girlfriend knew that he sleeps with men – but sorry to all those honest bi’s out there, I’m not talking about you). But since in my experience bisexual married men never tell you beforehand that they’re married, so as not to ruin their chances of getting laid, I must’ve had sex with at least a couple of hundred married men (yes, I’m a slut), often anonymous sex in parks, bathhouses, etc. And here’s what the majority of these men had in common: they either didn’t have condoms on them (because that would be evidence if their wife ever found one) or they didn’t “like” to use condoms; either way, it didn’t matter much to most of them “because they’re not really like that so they’re not concerned by aids” (that’s the moment when one does realize that his sex partner is a married man… and that there’s still a lot of ignorance about aids in the straight world).
So although monogamy sounds like the best way to preserve your sexual health, it really depends on your spouse obeying the same rule. And that’s where the ideal of monogamy becomes potentially dangerous. Since it’s such a big part of societal mores, many people who aren’t monogamous by nature feel compelled to lie in order to have a “normal” life and relationships (or else they’ll be shunned). And since they want to see themselves as normal, they often (in my experience) try to minimize the frequency or the danger of their outside sexual contacts so they won’t feel like total shits.
Needless to say, that’s not a very good way to preserve sexual health. I’d rather use condoms, they work no matter your number of partners.
Everyone who’s going off on Dan for his statements needs to take a chill pill. If you listen to the podcasts and you read him regularly you’d realize that while he’s currently a bit excited to have found something that he feels validates his views, in general he’s always clear that he has no problem with monogomy, and thinks it’s great for the people it works for. His concern is usually the way that it’s put up on a pedastal as the only way and how anything short of it is viewed as failure.
The guy’s a little excited, and he may well decide to walk back the “unnatural” comment, but cut him some slack.
And for all the monogomists so injured by Dan’s comments, get over it. The rest of the world worships you, I think you can handle one homo who’s got a different opinion.
Dan, amazing as usual. And this Ryan guy sounds just as fantastic.
I sincerely wish one out of all three of the long term relationships I’ve had had allowed not only me, but US to explore sexually. I’ve been trying to get my boyfriend to have sex with another woman and watch, that would be my ultimate fantasy. And he says absolutely not, and is even more against bringing another male into our sex life.
Monogamy is so restricting. I hope I can find a GGG partner one day.
I feel like the 24 year old hasn’t really been given a full set of advice here…
Perhaps she is so deeply non-monogamous that she has to accept and move forward with her life, knowing she will never be satisfied by one partner. Or, perhaps she’s just young and was with the wrong guy for 6 years.
I cheated on a long term boyfriend left and right in my early twenties and really started to believe that I must be non-monogamous. I loved him and we had good sex – so I figured my need to have sex with others meant I’d never be sastified by one person. Fast forward to my relationship with my husband.
Been together 7 years, no cheating and no true desire to cheat. Sure, I fantasize – who doesn’t? – and I run close to the rail with flirting here and there. But the love and sexual attraction I feel for him are SO much deeper than what I felt for my ex, that I really feel like a different person in this relationship.
We have explosively good sex and do a lot of fantasizing together and are exploring new kinks all the time – we may even open up our relationship one day, but if so it’ll be us, as a couple doing it to enrich our sex life. Not me, just wanting to run around and bang strangers. Know what I mean? For me there is a huge difference in how I felt in my previous relationship and I how I feel in this one. I think the 24 year old in question needs to give her h.s. boyfriend the boot, for good, and move forward with meeting someone who better matches her. Maybe it’ll turn out she is non-monogamous and if so, the advice given here is pretty sound, but I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion right off the bat.
@4
I’m sorry, but when the hell did monogamy become a bad thing? Did I miss the memo somewhere, that said that monogamous people need to be “educated”?
I’d much rather a girl be upfront about not being able to be faithful to me, and let me decide whether I’d be okay being cheated on, than have her lie and form some emotional bond, before she drops that particular bombshell on me.
@88
I won’t deign to speak for all men, or even many, but I prefer monogamy. I wouldn’t be comfortable or happy in an open relationship. When I’m with a woman, I’m with her lock, stock, and barrel, and wouldn’t want to inflict the pain of infidelity on her. Similarly, I’d be crushed if my girlfriend wanted to sleep with other men while being with me. Perhaps it’s low self-esteem, or at least an understanding that someone else out there is more attractive than me. Perhaps it’s a natural paranoia. Perhaps it stems from my mother having cheated on and divorced my father. I’m not sure.
@109
I think the problem is when someone who accepts that most forms of sexual expression (homosexuality, most kinks) are outside of our control, and hence “natural”, this one form (the one lots of us prefer) is somehow unnatural. Unnatural is not a neutral word, it doesn’t just hold the meaning of “not how things would be in the natural world” (even though many species of animal are monogamous), it holds connotations which make it sound like a denunciation.
If that wasn’t Dan’s meaning, I do hope he clarifies.
@118
[Needs Citations]
As you’re really asserting that a majority of people cheat on their monogamous partners, I’d really like to see data.
@124
Yes, many married people stray from monogamy. But, many married people don’t.
I think that it should be about honesty. I’ve had girlfriends who were upfront about their desire to have lots of different sexual experiences, and I’ve been upfront about my desire for monogamy. We set up ground rules: we’re monogamous while we’re together, but if/when she got bored (or I got bored) we could either open up the relationship, or break up with no hard feelings.
That said, I think the standards for relationship rules should work the same way the standards for BDSM rules exist (in my book): whoever has more restrictive rules and desires controls. If a polyamorous person decides to be in a relationship with a monogamous person, she’s accepting that she’s being faithful to him. Of course, the monogamous person should be upfront, as should the polyamorous person, and they should try to hash things out first, but at the end of the day, if your partner is only happy if you’re not sleeping around, and you can be happy sleeping with only one person, you do that.
If you can’t, don’t get together.
@126
Okay, can we discuss the limits of being GGG?
I like to think of myself as GGG, and there are some fantasies I simply wouldn’t enjoy. Bringing another man (or woman) into any of my relationships would simply have me huddled on the floor (or, alternately, livid). Maybe it’s low self-esteem, or concern about my girlfriend wanting the other guy more, whatever. For whatever reason, that particular line of fantasy makes me lose wood faster than anything else.
But, so what? Unless you’re saying that if your boyfriend came to you and said “I want to pretend I’m a baby in a diaper, and you’re my mommy raping me while she changes me”, you’d immediately throw on the apron, and baby talk to him, you’re being hypocritical. If GGG literally means “doing anything your partner likes”, then you’d better have absolutely no limits. If it still allows for some “kinks that freak me out”, then what you want isn’t someone GGG, you want someone with similar kinks.
My husband gave me the ol’ “free pass” about 4 years ago and I’ve never used it.
If monogamy was “unnatural” it probably would have phased out somewhere along the millennia. Yes, humans used to fuck like rabbits. But then we started cooking our food and wearing pants when it got cold, and we started thinking instead of being instinctual beasts. Not that thinking is what makes us monogamous, as there’s plenty of other species that practice it and practice it well. Saying monogamy is somehow “unnatural” when it is plainly obvious to anyone who took biology in 7th grade and passed with better than a C- that humans are not alone in sticking to one mate is either terribly misinformed, pushing an agenda, or just an idiot.
Just because you can’t keep it in your pants doesn’t mean the people who can and do are freaks. I don’t care if you want to fuck everyone on the planet or just maintain a relationship with 12 other people at once, just don’t pretend that the desire to just fuck one person and maintain that one relationship is out of the ordinary. It makes you look like a jackass.
It’s certainly apropos that the letter you received is regarding the cuckolding fetish, the “hot new fetish” of the new millennium. I absolutely agree with Ryan, that there are many “normal” reasons to explain the appeal of this fetish. In my own book Insatiable Wives, I explore these issues, including the neurochemical and masochistic motivations behind it. I do in fact see that bisexual and homosexual urges are substantial in these husbands. By the way – I’m reading Sex at Dawn currently, and agree that it is a wonderful book!
cheers – David Ley
@124 Not really an issue since I acknowledge the distinction between apparent and actual monogamy.
@ 70, 84 Human pair bonding (usu. with some type of quai-marriage ceremony) is as culturally universal as the incest taboo. That is not to say that those cultural universals don’t vary: for me, cousin-on-cousin action seems gross; not so for farmers living back in the 19th century. If monogamy (once again, imperfect serial monogamy, subject to some cultural variation) were in fact unnatural, it is not clear why pair bonding would exist at all as a prominent, universal feature in human sexuality; words like “cheating” only have meaning in the context of monogamy (describing its breach).
That’s the problem: the implication is that monogamy is most often observed in the breach. That’s simply not the case. I haven’t created a false dichotomy here. A person is behaving monogamously when he or she makes a commitment (explicit or not, conscious or not) to have only one partner, and follows through.
Suppose a person makes a conscious decision to be a nonsmoker. He then, under unusual circumstances, smokes one cigarette over the course of his life. Many in this forum, following the same logic, would classify him as a “smoker.”
Monogamy, even serial monogamy, is extremely unusual among the animal kingdom. So what? The same applies to opposable thumbs, or a language faculty. Human beings are a unique species; our children are born ‘prematurely’ (compared to virtually all other primates) and take a very long time to develop — under those circumstances, it’s not hard to see the evolutionary benefits of pair bonding.
And as for this nonsense attributing monogamy to the advent of private property: show me the evidence. It’s scant to non-existent; even the scholars who posit that relationship fail to produce convincing evidence. For good reason.
I’ve been poly and I’ve been mono without great struggles on either end. It is the skills taught by being polyamorous that I find valuable enough to wish them on everyone. Yes, those skills, too, you pervs. But mostly the communication skills. Everyone should go into their relationships knowing what they want, what they don’t, where their boundaries are, and what their goals are, and be able to communicate this clearly. Being able to tell the difference between your own mental baggage and someone else’s is also useful. But because mono is seen as ‘natural’ no one stops to think about all these things beforehand. Which is where the heartache happens.
So, in my ideal universe, poly would be the norm, young adults would be expected to be poly, to learn what they want and how to get it. Then later they can renegotiate for a mono relationship, if that’s what they want. Mono can always be a subset of the poly-verse, but not the other way around.
Happily mono
Please #85? Who are you to call me “fucked up” just because I like to watch my wife getting a little action with another dude. I even like the idea of his seed entering her in full force, and the extra thrill of the possibility of him impregnating her. Of course, I am aware of the unfortunate fact that in this day and age, use of a condom in this situation is absolutely essential. I therefore leave at least something in the realm of fantasy. Keep in mind also that this fetish (if we must call it that) is not entirely for the male’s gratification. There are some women like to engage with two male partners in the same session.
It’s funny to hear various comments characterizing this discussion as some kind of personal attack on Dan Savage. Granted, I haven’t read every single comment, but I don’t think that characterization actually describes the vast majority of what has, up to this point, been a fairly interesting and fruitful discussion. Most of us are on here, after all, because we enjoy “Savage Love” — I don’t understand how that obligates us to agree with all of his conclusions.
And one more note: need to take a trip down to the university library, but some preliminary investigation suggests that these wild statistics about runaway infidelity are totally bogus (i.e., the result of “research” conducted by — er, “Cosmopolitan,” etc.)
Poly, mono, whatever TF you want. All of it is natural and natural for some people at different times in their lives. What you do in your twenties doesn’t mean you’ll still be doing it in your forties nor does it mean you won’t. The only thing you can count on in human beings is that we change, and that we insist however we live is the “natural” way to be.
Does this book mention that Chimps, Gorillas, Orangutans, etc… all have bones in their penises (baculum) which human males do not. Does it also mention the fact that within Bonobo troops sexual activities occur within familial relationships as well as outside of them? Humans tend to frown on those types of relationships but it appears “natural” for the Bonobo at any rate.
Bottom line, the book sounds interesting, but less than stellar in the research department. Monogamy is not easy, nor are any of the poly relationships. Relationships aren’t easy and require work no matter how you work out the issues of fidelity and infidelity and what each of those terms mean for you.
As for the statistics on how many people cheat on their partners, it may be 40% to 60% of the respondents, but that means the others do not. I guess what that really means is when using an average of 50%, 50% cheat and 50% don’t. Sort of sounds like the political break down of the country, too.
I didn’t read everything, but one quick comment that needs to be understood: Evolution has no morality.
In another context it’s why capitalism and social darwinism, two social constructs that are modeled on evolution, can have disastrous effects.
I’ve come to the end of the tether with Dan. His columns have become way more repetitive and WAY more preachy. Stop trying to sell us some BS pseudo-science to justify your own hedonism. Have you ever entertained the notion that all you liberals are wrong? Certainly the vast majority of the world think so.
Erica P.: “it’s actually hard to find men who are any good at figuring out what I want.”
You actually lie there hoping they’ll just “figure it out”? Dude, TELL THEM WHAT YOU LIKE. You’re fucking them, not playing Battleship: it shouldn’t be some grueling guessing game/process of elimination.
“Does anyone have any tips on how to figure out whether men are good in bed before you fuck them?”
DISCUSS THE THINGS YOU LIKE TO DO and see how many of them overlap with his favourite things. Seriously: it’s not a guessing game. Sex gets way, way better when you openly talk about your needs, likes, and dislikes beforehand. And during. And after.
There’s no universal standard of “good in bed” because everyone likes different things. A good listener who’s open minded, bright, in decent cardiovascular shape and has some manual dexterity is probably a better bet than a narrow minded clumsy dumbass who gets winded brushing his teeth, though. Good luck!
nice work dan! best post in some time. the world needs to know that well-negotiated alternatives to monogamy can not only save relationships but dare i say, souls 🙂 divorce rate would most certainly go way down too.
shedding the conventional controls that have pretty much institutionalized monogamy will go a long way in healing wounds. and there would no longer be any reason to have soap operas and reality TV which both thrive on the conflict created around cheating and lying. and that would be a fine day indeed!
we are a happy couple with a wonderful child and it all works because we discussed the fact that monogamy didn’t resonate with either of us. so we negotiated terms for play that we could both agree on and live happily within those boundaries.
nice work dan! best post in some time. the world needs to know that well-negotiated alternatives to monogamy can not only save relationships but dare i say, souls 🙂 divorce rate would most certainly go way down too.
shedding the conventional controls that have pretty much institutionalized monogamy will go a long way in healing wounds. and there would no longer be any reason to have soap operas and reality TV which both thrive on the conflict created around cheating and lying. and that would be a fine day indeed!
we are a happy couple with a wonderful child and it all works because we discussed the fact that monogamy didn’t resonate with either of us. so we negotiated terms for play that we could both agree on and live happily within those boundaries.
IMHO, monogamy may be “natural” intellectually, but with regards to chemically, which controls emotion and desire, it would seem to be unnatural.
What is natural for humans is Jealousy, Possessiveness, and Territorialism. I wonder if what makes the majority of us monogamists is the role our monogomist S/O plays in satisfying the above 3 traits. Are we monogomist, because what is ours is ours including our S/O?
What if you were told that you could pick anyone in the world to have a romance with, to have sex with, to fulfill whatever mating you would like … and that noone would ever care that it happened (or perhaps ever find out .. if that is a better scenario for you), and that you would not be in danger healthwise, and that your relationship with S/O would not be impaired? And that your S/O other would not be offered the same opportunity. Would you be interested? Would you still be interested if your S/O had the same offer, but could only accept if you also accepted? Hmmmm, is it monogamy by choice, or by jealousy, possessiveness, and territorialism.
What about that movie star … ladies how about Brad Pitt, Gents … a Playboy Model? Are you still a Monogamist? If the thought excites you (a natural chemical process)… is monogamy natural? If the thought in passing excites you but you would never do that because your are in a committed monogamist relationship with your S/O, well … you have intellectually classified that endeavour as beyond the scope of what you will act upon … a decision that is in direct conflict with the natural chemical process of you body.
More thoughts on the subject. I saw a television program … something about sexuality or other with a host that had a voice like that Hansen guy on Primetime or 20/20 or Dateline etc. Maybe it was John Quinones(sp?). Anyway, some very interesting things were highlighted from studies done by scientists:
1. Women are highly aroused only during their two-week ovulation period, and are repulsed by the scent of men during the other period of time. Hypothesis: Women only give a shit about their monogamous S/O 50% of the time. Naturally occuring chemical reactions.
2. Women are aroused by the scent of the typical “hunk” or what society percieves as an attractive male, but repulsed by the scent of an overweight male. Theory: Woman now only give a shit about their monogamous S/O 25% of the time. Remember, this is naturally occuring chemical reactions.
2. Women are repulsed by the scent (pheromones) of their father and brother. Significance: Primary family incest is unnatural, chemically speaking. They didn’t test cousins, so don’t know whether extended family sex with say a 1st or 2nd cousin is chemically unnatural.
3. In a study 10 women were lined up across from 10 men, all people in blue lycra body suits (think bobsled or ski competitors) so that only the face was showing, to try to get rid of attractiveness (no makeup allowed). Each person from each side had a number from 1-10 on their forehead, but they could not see their own number. 10 was desirable, 1 was not desirable. Each person was tasked to try to pair up with a partner that was considered desirable. In the end, the 10 male ended up with the 10 female, down the line, with only two pairs mixed up. Theory: Humans tend to desire what they consider their equal or greater in value, safety or beauty. And they become monogamous to own what they have out of fear of it being replaced with some less desirable or valuable. How monogamous are you if something of greater value to you is waived in front of you for your possession? Is cheating nothing more than testing to see if we can acquire something of greater value beforing discarding that which we find less value in now. What drives that value and causes that possessivenss? For the man … his desire for beauty, for the women … safety & genes. All chemically driven and natural.
4. Another study had the women look at pictures of male models. Of the two models, one was obviously more attractive by society standards. Every single time, the women chose the attractive male as the more desirable, attributing such characteristics as friendly, attractive, confident etc. When the pictures of the same guys were shown to the same women later, but the less attractive male made a 6-figure salary and an impressive job title, whle the attractive male was a retail asst. manager making less than $30k, the less attractive male was always selected as sexier. Theory: Women naturally are non-monogamist, chemically driven to marry a man making lots of money but doesn’t give a shit about him for 14 days, then goes out to a bar in a come fuck me dress with stilletos to bang the Chippendale dancer in the back alley after the show. Oh wait, I was just thinking that, I wouldn’t really do that … I might lose my house, and me and my kids would then be on the street!!! Boy I’m happy with the husband I’m with … that’s right, I’m a monogamist!!! See Point #5 to understand what I mean.
5. In a study of single vs. married women monitored in a bar type laboratory with sensors that measured skin surface area shown and amount of body movement considered to be sexually provocatie in nature, married woman by far revealed more skin, wore scantier clothing, danced more suggestively, and flirted more with men than their single counterparts. In fact, the single women were by far more conservatively dressed. Theory: Monogamy is unnatural and given a setting where monogamists feel they can act natural without repercussion, will prove that monogamy is unnatural … at least chemically if not intellectually. Feel the RUSH!!!
And if that doesn’t convince you, we all know that women are turned on by emotion, feelings etc. and men are turned on by images. If monogamy is so damn natural, why the hell am I assualted every 7 seconds with the thoughts of sex (studies prove it), check out women’s breasts and ass all the time, and fantasize about banging the secretary over my desk. All chemical … all the time … all NATURAL!!!
What if women had “sweet nothings” whispered in their ear from out of thin air every time an attractive male walked by them, enough to arouse their loins, to lubricate the tunnel, to perk up the nipples, to start the fantasy (equal to what men experience by seeing revealing cleavage, lips colored to look like genitalia, thongs revealing through opaque skirts, high heals to tone and slim the legs and hike the ass … on a continual basis)? Would they be able to withstand the chemical assault on their body? Would they still be monogamists? Theory: Yes, but only every other two weeks!!!!
In answer to Seconds:
Did the whole scene turn you off or on? If it turned you off, you need to end the relationship. Your husband has let his vice out of the closet and it won’t go back in. If it turned you on, you have a chance to have ALOT of men to fuck!!! Is it the beginning of Cuckhold … sure sounds like it, but ask him, I’m sure he would love to share with you. BTW, don’t be surprise if he also would like to get your stud’s cock hard for you, and clean your cum off your cock too … and still think he is not bisexual. Why, because he likes sucking cock and men’s sperm, not being in love with men. Do yourself a favor … ask him to show you his favorite websites he’s been hiding from you … then you will really start to know you husband.
For DWB …. face it girl, you have yet to find the guy that matches your kink!!! You love your ex because you have nothing to replace him with … so the sex is adequate, but not good enough to keep you from wandering. Let him know that you would still like to fuck him from time to time until you meet the guy that hits the right spots. In the meantime, you sound like a swinger, or at least a girl that would love to try a few threesomes, Gang-Bangs, and orgies. Get thee to the nearest swing party, or plan on attending the NASCA national event in Miami. You will have a great time, safe/sane men are always looking for a young, beautiful, willing partner … so odds are you will find a cool guy that has his head screwed on just like you.
And for WSWH … You are the worst Monogamist of them all. You failed your husband, and failed your marriage, failed your children, and failed yourself. Your husband has fulfilled your needs: a home, children, food and clothing. All men want is sleep, meals, and great sex!!! You should be ashamed of yourself. You should be ecstatic about fucking your husband every night for the wonderful efforts he has put forth to give you what you wanted … the house, the kids etc. As a matter of fact, start learning how to deep throat, and surprise your man … then boast about it to your girlfriends that although he has a big cock you were able to swallow the whole thing and make him cum. That my dear … Would make him feel like a King in his Home and the Neighborhood!!!! So stop being ungrateful, before he dumps your sorry ass and finds a Real Woman who knows how to take care of business!!! If not, count yourself with the 50% of wives that complained about their cheating husband, while they ended up getting fat and not putting out!!!!
@ 132 You mean not an issue for you, personally (which is great), but surely an issue for all those who believed in their spouse’s faithfulness and got a little something they didn’t expect. That’s the problem I was trying to highlight: since we expect faithfulness (and people promise faithfulness even when they can’t deliver it), the basic trust needed for a relationship dictates that you won’t doubt your spouse until you have serious reasons to do so. In many instances, it’s too late by then.
Lowering your expectations concerning monogamy can save lives. I’m not criticizing it, I’m just pointing out that since it’s not the norm in fact – most people cheat on their spouse at least once – you can’t really take it as a guarantee of sexual health.
I read _Sex at Dawn_. I don’t like the occasionally breathless style, but they marshal quite a bit of evidence. They engage people who disagree, and they do a reasonable job of making their case. Would it get published in a peer-reviewed journal? Doubt it, too controversial (Diamond’s tepid support notwithstanding), don’t underestimate the influence of conventional morality in social science. FWIW, I have a PhD in social science from a top 3 department in my field.
To those arguing that this or that mating pattern is “natural:” just because something feels natural doesn’t make it so. People are pretty plastic, we *learn* what to like. You’re confusing “the way it was for animals we descended from between 100,000 years ago until about 10,000 years ago” with “what I was taught to like.” The former has a reasonable claim to being “natural,” the latter has none.
I’m now at midlife, I’ve never cheated because I’ve always been pretty happy whenever any woman would have sex with me. If I can get a woman to undress with me, I’ll do what I can to keep getting it. When gf’s have cheated on me, I didn’t ever really see the big deal. The question always seems to me: ok, but are you going to keep doing it with me? If the cheat is a symptom of dissatisfaction I can’t fix, well, we’re done. But If you still want me, I’m fine.
@142
Yes, you’re happy because you’re two people *neither of whom wanted to be monogamous*. The problem with the “hurr, monogamy isn’t natural, derp, derp” is that it creates an easy situation where a person who doesn’t want to be monogamous will try to force a person who is into it.
If non-monogamy works for you and your wife, kudos. But, it doesn’t make it any more the “right” answer than any happy married couple existing makes monogamy the ‘right’ answer. Keep your moralizing to yourself.
@143
I can answer you easily that I would not take up the offer to cheat on my girlfriend, even if it wouldn’t adversely impact our relationship, and I would be horrified if she was willing to. So, yeah, I guess I really am monogamous.
1. Needs citations, and you fail to take into account things like birth control hormones. Even if true, you assume that decisions made and ‘caring’ are entirely resident in hormonal reactions. I don’t buy it.
2 (a and b). Ehh… You’re getting into evolutionary psychology here. Technically, they’re turned on by the scent of the existence of antibodies complementary to their own, which is why siblings don’t feel attraction to each other (usually); their antibodies are too similar.
3. I’m not sure your point here. Yes, monogamy is based on a sort of mutually-assured-destruction model. I don’t want to be replaced with a better model, nor have myself “stuck” with an inferior one. My girlfriend doesn’t want to be replaced or be stuck, so we say to each other “you don’t get to find someone better”. Paranoid, but no less reasonable than anything else.
4. Evolutionary psych is such a retarded field most of the time. All you know (factually) is that women are more attracted to attractive men, and men who have shown themselves to be good providers. Duh. What you haven’t shown is that there’s any kind of manipulation. This whole “they want a provider who’s a good father/breadwinner, but to get impregnated by ‘studs'” hypothesis is pure speculation, even evolutionary psychologists call it bullshit
5. Uh… Huh. Or it’s that married women are more comfortable flaunting what they have because they aren’t actually looking to go home with any of those guys, or she’s just looking for some male attention and likes being able to let loose. What it doesn’t show is any indication of a desire to commit infidelity (if every woman who flirted with me wanted to fuck me, I’d have a lot more sex than I do), nor that they aren’t monogamous through-and-through
Ahhhh… And now I know you’re full of shit. The “men think about sex every seven seconds” is a myth, completely and totally. It’s fallacious, fictitious, and crap. It’s not “proved” by anything. Also, speaking as someone who is just as male as you, I don’t check out women all the time, or fantasize about other women all the time, so… Yeah, anecdotes suck as evidence.
Incidentally, women respond as strongly to physical and visual stimuli, and if your idea of “emotional connection” is ephemeral ‘sweet nothings’, you know little of relationships to begin with.
Your ‘answers’ to the various writers this week are vapid, vacuous, and simplistic. I’ll not waste my time.
@144
I really want to see hard data on the whole “most people cheat at least once” stuff. And, really, the solution to “people are unfaithful bastards/bitches” is “well, let’s just accept it”, rather than “demand of your S/O fidelity, and kick his/her ass out if they don’t give it to you”?
@130 and others arguing for the persistence of monogamy: it helps that the laws and customs of our society support monogamy, and rather repressively. The *constant* violations of monogamy are always explained away as exceptions. Nope: fidelity is the exception, and in animals, too. It’s there, but it’s rare.
I’m mono not because I only want one woman. I’m mono because all my partners have wanted me to be mono. The potential excitement of other partners has been less than the current excitement of the one I have minus the risk of losing her if I try for others.
Expected_value(others) < Present_value(gf) – Risk_losing(gf|others)
Oh, those sex-crazed bonobos!
Thanks again for another great column, Dan and Ryan.
Have you read “Sperm Wars” by Robin Baker? There’s some great popular non-fiction explaining in there, too.