I broke up with a girl who wasn’t hot enough for me. I tried my whole life to not be that kind of guy. I treated her carelessly because she wasn’t that important to me. I was self-indulgent and rude and disrespectful, and it made her cry. She’s perfectly attractive, but not in an obvious way, which is what I want. I don’t want to abandon her, because she is a pillar of support that I truly need. She’s the first girl I ever fucked, and I’m the first guy she ever dated. She is 28 and I am 24. We have known each other for one year. Is it a bad idea to maintain a relationship with her while I pursue other women? Would it be better to end all contact? What is a man who is pathologically worried about being an asshole to do?

Must Remain Anonymous

So… you were a virgin at age 23 when you met this woman.

Hm.

I’m guessing you’re not all that conventionally attractive yourself, MRA. You’re attractive, of course, just not in a conventional sense. You’re attractive in the same way that, say, your ex-girlfriend is attractive. Perfectly attractive. Just not obviously attractive.

Not hot.

But you feel entitled to a woman who is attractive in obvious ways. You want a woman who’s objectively hot. And you may get one. There are lots of obviously hot women out there with guys who aren’t anywhere near as hot. Helps if the dude’s a billionaire. But a word of warning: If you had to wait until age 23 for a woman to come along who was willing to fuck you and put up with your shit, MRA, the wait for a hot woman who’s willing to fuck you and put up with your shit could be a long one. But you can live in hope.

What you can’t live in, MRA, is an alternate reality where you haven’t been an asshole. You emotionally abused this woman for failing to be something she wasn’t when you met her (and something that you’re not, either): conventionally, objectively, and obviously attractive. You weren’t obligated to stay with her forever just because she was kind enough to fuck you and put up with your shit for a while, of course, and you’re free to follow your dreams and pursue hot women. But you were obligated to treat this woman with kindness and consideration. Instead, you went out of your way to act like an asshole.

Under the circumstances, MRA, I think it’s best to end all contact. It’s nice that you’re willing to keep her in your life in order to get the support you need, all the while providing her with jack shit in return—no, wait. That’s just more assholery. Cut her from your life. It’s the only decent thing to do.

It may be the only decent thing you’ve ever done for her.

I’m an 18-year-old girl in my freshman year at university. I moved into an apartment with three roommates: awesome party girl who I really get along with, my long-term boyfriend, and a new guy who is a year older than me.

Here’s the problem: I don’t have an out-of-this-world libido. My boyfriend doesn’t mind and seems content. But I want to fuck the new guy’s brains out all the time. I don’t understand! I love my boyfriend and I find him attractive, and this other guy is not my type in any way. I am NOT going to cheat on my boyfriend, but I don’t know what to do!

Feelings Are Not Technically Alright Sometimes, Y’know?

First potential explanation: Like most 18-year-olds, you don’t know your hole from an ass in the ground. Part of dating, at your age, is discovering what works for you, who works for you, and what you want. Sometimes what you think you want isn’t what you actually want. So it’s possible that your long-term boyfriend is a nice guy, a good guy, and an attractive guy. But he’s not the kind of nice, good, attractive guy who turns you on. So your libido may be just fine, FANTASY, it’s just that you have yet to date a guy who cranks your libido into gear. In other words: This guy might indeed be your type. You just don’t know it yet.

Second potential explanation: Women tend to be attracted to one type of guy when they’re not ovulating (nicer guys: good parents and helpful partners) and a different type of guy when they are ovulating (rougher guys: lousy parents and worse partners). Lots of women in long-term, stable relationships with nice guys enjoy manly-man-eye-candy when they’re ovulating and then fuck their nice guy’s brains out. But you’re going to complicate your life considerably if you live with both types, i.e., the nice guy you want to marry and the masculine-type guy whose brains you want to fuck out when you’re shitting eggs.

What to do? Well, if it’s explanation number one, dump your boyfriend and date your roommate. If it’s explanation number two, ogle your roommate and fuck your boyfriend.

A gay couple, friends of mine, just announced their wedding this coming summer in Vancouver. They’ve broken up and reunited countless times over the last 10 years; they fight and cheat on each other. Separately they’re wonderful people, but together they’re a fucking nightmare. I suspect this will be one of those marriages that will collapse quickly. So it occurs to me: How much social pressure will there be for gay married folks not to get divorced? After all, the homophobes will soon use gay divorce rates as an argument against gay marriage, right?

The Straight Best Man

Wrong.

Half of all opposite-sex marriages end in divorce, TSBM, which makes it pretty easy to deflect arguments about a gay divorce somehow proving that same-sexers aren’t worthy. And divorce—access to the courts to divide up joint property, work out custody arrangements, determine spousal support, etc.—is one of the important rights that comes with marriage.

And did you know that the first same-sex couple to legally wed in Canada wound up divorcing? And that the first same-sex couple to legally marry in the United States also wound up divorcing? No and no, TSBM, because evangelical Christians—those rabid opponents of marriage equality—haven’t made it an issue. And why haven’t they? Oh, probably because the divorce rate among conservative evangelical Christians is higher than the divorce rate among less batshit Christians, nonbelievers, and Americans who live in Massachusetts. The haters don’t want to make divorce an issue because it makes them look bad, not us. As for your friends…

Some people love conflict and drama, and it’s for the best when two drama-seeking conflictophiles pair off and marry each other. It can be hard on friends and family at first, TSBM, but once you realize that a couple is a pair of perfectly matched conflictophiles—both parties are equally awful, neither is being abused, two innocent people were spared when these two fuckers found each other—you don’t have to pretend you give a flying fuck about their drama anymore.

So when asshole Adam goes, “Steve cheated on me!” You go, “He’s cheated on you before, Adam. And it’s only a matter of time before you cheat on him. Again. Now, how about Occupy Wall Street? About fucking time, huh?”

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.

mail@savagelove.net

250 replies on “Savage Love”

  2. I am a man, and although I am liberal, I often am unsympathetic to cries of sexism. With that said, the “shitting eggs” thing is over the line. Witness the firestorm in the following comments.

  6. “Shitting eggs”… I now have a new excuse for all those bad choices. Who WOULDN’T fuck someone less-than-longterm with something as embarrassing as THAT going on? Love it. Adopting it.

  7. “Shitting eggs”… I now have a new excuse for all those bad choices. Who WOULDN’T fuck someone less-than-longterm with something as awkward as THAT going on? Love it. Adopting the phrase. Next time,”I don’t know why I did it…I was just shitting eggs and crazy.”

  10. “Shitting eggs”….yeah, I’m with @6 Freeamanda. No wonder I’ve been such a crazy basket case who’s made nothing but bad choices!!

    But that was 10 years ago, and blessedly soon, I’ll no longer be shitting eggs!!!! I’m gonna party BIG TIME, babeeeeee!!!!

  12. I’m a member of the demographic Dan’s referring to, and I agree with @3. I’d be a lot more offended if it were coming from a guy who wanted to do me, and something unique and non-threatening is always going to be less offensive than a cliche (see: “on the rag”).

  14. “Shitting eggs” is just goofy/gross wordplay; it’s not offensive imo.

    However, re: “Women tend to be attracted to one type of guy when they’re not ovulating (nicer guys: good parents and helpful partners) and a different type of guy when they are ovulating (rougher guys: lousy parents and worse partners).” I’m not going to cry OFFENSE! That’s rude! or anything, but that’s a crazy leap of logic to make.

    Every single article I’ve ever read about this states that ovulating women are attracted to more masculine-looking or -sounding men, not “rough” guys who are terrible parents or partners. A chiseled jawline and nice wide shoulders aren’t going to make a dude a jerky boyfriend, and a weak chin and slim physique won’t keep a man from being a punk.

    The theory still stands, though: maybe her roommate’s physically a Troy and her boyfriend’s physically an Abed (or vice-versa–she didn’t describe either of them, really).

  15. Not only eggs. That family guy episode explains further,

    “Babies come out of the butt, right?”
    “ahh, yeah”

    (episode: I think it’s called “Oceans 3 1/2”)

    I thought Dan was pretty HILARIOUS with that comment. I don’t care if he is acting insensitive to poke at a tickle button, but I’m impressed with the straight guys here being all evolved and anti-Peter-Griffin-like. Thanks, guys. You’ve made both my ovulating and non-ovulating personalities happy.

  16. On the whole “shitting eggs” portion, I still think that biological arguments are super uninteresting. I mean, it just suggests, oh well the stuff I do is about my hormones. Also, it suggests that men don’t have hormonal fluctuations. It plays into the “crazy emotional women with hormones” argument, which is deeply sexist. I’m not saying Dan is a sexist of course that particular statement, along with many of Dan’s discussions on female genitalia, is laced with sexist subtext. Regardless, the suggestion that women ovulating become crazy cock hungry danger sluts I think is just a bit troubling.

  17. @16 I don’t think it’s implying that – Dan was giving advise to a woman, about her libido and related it to hormonal changes during the menstrual cycle – perfectly relevant to what she was talking about. Or do you think libido is not about hormones (potentially pheromones) and body-types?
    I agree that there’s a lot of underlying sexism in the “crazy women with hormones” idea, but I see something very similar in the “men think with their dicks” side of the argument.
    I just think people’s libidos will always be influenced by their hormones and it’s better to take that into account than to pretend that “the stuff humans do” is completely conscious, controlled and rational.

  18. Funny how the “shitting eggs” comment stuck out for most of us in that whole column. With that – and his insistence on using the word “twat” and other repulsive words all the time, Dan certainly has a knack for making women’s sexual organs sound disgusting. No question, he’s 100% fag.

  19. @16 I’m pretty sure Dan highlighted a university study a while back on women’s choices of men when they were/weren’t ovulating. Maybe it was on the podcast… Either way, the finding was what he outlined in the second possible explanation to FANTASY.

  20. The phrase “shitting eggs” is hilarious. I’m not seeing how it degrades women – if anything it degrades babies by comparing their component cells to a waste product.

    Which is fine by me ’cause I don’t like kids.

    Good answers this week, btw. Glad that first guy got called out for the asshole he clearly is.

  22. I think “shitting eggs” is a very amusing turn of phrase…I mean, it is an involuntary act…

    a middle aged woman who is no longer shitting eggs…

  23. shitting eggs stuck out for me, too!

    Man, how awesome would it be if we could just poop out menstrual waste instead of walking around padded/wadded/cupped like incontinent old people once a month? I truly look forward to the day when I can shit my eggs instead of slowly leaking them over a period of three days. XD

  24. Thumbs up for “crazy cock hungry danger sluts”. I found ‘shitting eggs’ opportunistically sexist – dan just couldn’t resist slipping it in there – since he’ll never have to deal with ovulation himself. Alas, humor is subjective. I may use that one among friends, if there are no broads around.

  25. Birds only have one hole, and hence females shit eggs and give birth to piss and turds (male birds shit, piss and ejaculate from their ass). Dan was merely comparing women to chickens, but was sadly short two holes. Fitting punishment? Studiously exploring a woman’s parts with his tongue to discover all three, once and for all.

  26. As the child of two conflictophiles, I would completely agree with your advice that they should find similar partners and fight together. However, I would like to note an important caveat: these people should never have (or adopt) children. They may enjoy screaming at each other at the top of their lungs and humiliating each other in public, but it will mean that every single time a child’s parents are in the same room (or on the phone) will be traumatic. If your friends ever plan to adopt, or use reproductive technology to have children, please firmly and as politely as possible explain that children thrive in a peaceful home and that they should reconsider their decision.

  27. As the child of two conflictophiles, I would completely agree with your advice that they should find similar partners and fight together. However, I would like to note an important caveat: these people should never have (or adopt) children. They may enjoy screaming at each other at the top of their lungs and humiliating each other in public, but it will mean that every single time a child’s parents are in the same room (or on the phone) will be traumatic. If your friends ever plan to adopt, or use reproductive technology to have children, please firmly and as politely as possible explain that children thrive in a peaceful home and that they should reconsider their decision.

  30. @20 I love kids – I’m nursing one right now – and I think “shitting eggs” is pretty damn funny too.

    Probably not a phrase I’d like to see live in the lexicon, but it feels pretty accurate sometimes.

  32. FANTASY is a good example of why I think it’s a bad idea for people under 20 or 22 to move in with their significant others. I’m assuming she was living at home with her parents until just a couple months ago. Living on your own and starting college are big enough changes on their own – throwing cohabitation with a romantic partner into the mix seems excessive. Many high-school relationships end when the people involved go to college anyway. Sure, yours might not, but having a lease entangled with your relationship’s fate makes everything more complicated.

  35. Am I the only one here who feels that the question by MRA is fake? From the acronym to the stereotypical portrayal of the feminist idea of what an MRA is… the whole thing stinks of fake.

  37. The MRA question sounds like one Dan answered before – maybe in the podcast or something? I’m just getting some major deja vu here.

  39. Mr Hamish – Your proposed punishment is too lenient, although it is an excellent start. After the session in question, let’s add on that for the next year any press coverage of Mr Savage should identify him as both bisexual and fifty-three years old.

    Bonus points to anyone who can figure out what fictional 53-year-old is constantly putting his foot in his mouth, frequently when speaking about women.

  41. Mr Married – I take your point. My take on the second possibility would have been more along the lines of a natural interest in someone FANTASY hadn’t yet bedded. Once might be more than enough for her if she ever did.

    “Dump” in the conclusion seemed a little harsh. It’s quicker than “part amicably” but I think we’re getting into a Dump Culture.

    FANTASY reminds me a little (in a sideways manner) of the recent LW who said she would like sex every day while her partner would prefer once or twice a month. It’s all well and good to get into the mood every day when it isn’t happening often. But not everyone who thinks it’s a great idea in theory can keep an every day string going an entire month.

  42. I haven’t read the above comments yet. I thought I’d weigh in first, then check to see if I’m agreeing or disagreeing.

    For MRA– Dan is correct on everything except his conclusion based on your age. He has a somewhat rigid idea of when it’s normal for “attractive” people to lose their virginity, be in their first relationship, be ready to settle down, come out (or know their orientation), and know what they like sexually. My experience is that it’s quite a bit more fluid than that. A 23 year old might be a virgin because he’s not hot, or it might be because he’s been busy with other things. I compare it to those charts on when babies should be raising their heads, speaking their first words, and walking. Being off schedule could be the signal that something’s wrong, or it could be that there’s a kid who’s developing at their own pace.

  43. For FANTASY– I’d go with Dan’s explanation #1. The conclusions based on women’s varying attractions due to ovulation schedule is based on some laboratory research and some real life observations. It’s the sort of thing where there’s a little statistical evidence, but there are also so many exceptions as to make the whole thing interesting (I was interested) while not exactly something you’d base advice on.

    Here’s some practical advice: Whatever you do, seek alternate living space first. Otherwise, you’ve got a nightmare. Break up with a nice guy you find moderately attractive, possibly break his heart, start up with the other roommate, and continue living together? Recipe for a nightmare at the worst and nasty treatment of a nice guy at the best. You all deserve better.

  45. In total agreement that the third couple seem splendidly well-matched. I always think of the innocent parties spared couplehood with half of such a couple.

  46. @39 Maybe Dan can have a new contest, the winner can give Dan an anatomy lesson, and Dan can prove being gay is not a choice to boot. Hey, maybe the winner can shit an egg in Dan’s mouth! And he can videotape it for the next Hump! Triple win!

  47. Re FANTASY, I agree with @32 – not a good idea for 18 year olds to live with the person they’re (currently) dating. Let alone with another man and woman as well. Seems more like an MTV reality show than an opportunity to make the most of their college education.

    Re MRA, I think he is depressed, and so I don’t trust his self-reporting of how much of an asshole he was. They should break up; he should try dating someone he’s attracted to; and he should get some therapy for his depression.

  48. re FANTASY – I’d add a third potential reason: she’s just eighteen and is thinking about fucking another guy she’s not even that attracted to because she doesn’t want to settle down yet. She’s young and wants to see other people but she’s tied down in a quasi-marriage just as her whole life is opening up to new possibilities. But, since she’s a nice person and her bf is a nice person she feels that there’s something wrong with her. Nothing wrong with you, lady, you’re just 18 and you want a life and fun and you don’t want to be a de facto Mrs. Somebody at the most carefree time of your life. Listen to your inner self, and enjoy your life. It may not be wise to F* the room-mate, but it is wise to not be tied down when you’re barely out of high school.

  49. Re ovulation affecting a woman’s preferences — does anyone have a link to a solid study? I know people like to think about this, and like to think they can identify when a woman is ovulating. But I haven’t seen anything convincing.

    And in any case, it doesn’t apply if FANTASY is on hormonal birth control, like many women in college.

  50. Story #1 Been there done that but I was 18. This guy obviously hasn’t had enough relationships to get through the douchebag phase as I did. Good call on the advice, Dan.

    Story #2 Eighteen and living with her boyfriend? Fuck that. Now’s the time to dump the safety and security and date a metric shit ton of people. Only then are you going to be able to form an opinion about what you do and don’t want in a long term relationship.

    On a separate note I think people shouldn’t be allowed to get married until they’re at least 30, 35 for men. Seriously, did y’all know what the hell you were doing before then? I sure didn’t.

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