I’m a happily married woman. I have a great sex life with my husband of many years. He’s helped me discover things I didn’t know about myself sexually. The problem: Three years ago, my first love contacted me after 23 years. He was married at the time, although he didn’t want to be, and told me that he never stopped loving me. We have been having sexy e-chats ever since. My loving, GGG husband says that I can help my old flame out if I wish. What would you do in this situation?
Chick With 2 Dicks
What would I do? Besides thank my lucky stars, kiss my loving, GGG husband, and fuck the shit out of the other guy?
A few things, CW2D.
I would think hard—brainhard, not junkhard—about the potential powderkegginess of the situation. Not the powderkegginess of the having-sex-with-someone-other-than-my-husband-with-my-husband’s-consent situation, but the possible-shitstorm-that-could-ensue-after-fucking-this-particular-someone-who-isn’t-my-husband situation.
This Particular Someone says he’s still in love with you, CW2D. That’s nice. Are you still in love with TPS? If not, what happens if fucking TPS reignites dormant feelings for TPS that, oh, three years (!) of texting and sexting haven’t? Even if you don’t feel any more strongly for TPS after fucking him, CW2D, what if TPS decides that you really are the one-and-only love of his life and that he absolutely, positively has to have you all to himself?
TPS isn’t some rando, as the kids say. You two share a history, CW2D, and TPS could present—or become—a threat to the stability of your happy, GGG marriage. So could a complete stranger you met on the street or online, of course, but the emotional stakes and potential for complications are much, much higher with TPS than they would be with some other dude.
So before you do TPS, CW2D, you need to think brainhard about these issues and discuss them at length with your husband. And if you decide to go ahead with it after hashing this shit out with your husband, CW2D, be clear with TPS about what it is you want. If all you’re interested in is a friendship, some affection, and a little non-cyber sex for old time’s sake—if leaving your husband, or being poly, is out of the question—TPS needs to know that before you “help him out.”
(A note to everyone already composing angry e-mails about the qualified “go for it” I gave to CW2D: Yes, yes: Every couple you know who’s ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced. And that may be true—of the couples whose three-ways and flings you know about. You know lots of couples who’ve had three-ways and flings who aren’t divorced, but you don’t know you know them. Most married couples want to be perceived as monogamous even—especially!—when they’re not. So your friends who aren’t divorcing as the result of a disastrous fling, affair, swinging experience, three-way, etc., aren’t going to tell you about all the successful flings, affairs, etc., they’ve enjoyed.)
I am 22, standing in a bookstore on Castro Street—this is many years ago, just after I dropped out of Bible college and hitchhiked to San Francisco—looking at a gay BDSM magazine for the first time in my life, trying to hide my erection, reading a story about a Master who makes his naked slave carry to his Master’s friends a six-pack of beer that’s hanging from a rope that’s tied to his nuts. To my horror, I shoot a load in my pants without touching myself.
My problem: A bit older now, I’m still very much that boy in the bookstore. The things that turn me on are what my own mind—still brainwashed by Southern Baptists—deems “bad.” I tell myself it’s okay to embrace my “kinks.” I tell myself to stop analyzing why I’m turned on by forced-exhibitionistic-sex-slave fantasies and just accept them. The problem is that I perceive my fantasies as reactionary: They exist by definition in reaction to my upbringing. What is my hard-on but a big “fuck you” to the preachers, prudes, and family members who made me miserable?
What would turn me on if I could get free of the whole fucked-up system? Am I asking questions that shouldn’t be asked? Should I just enjoy the fact that I’m turned on by humiliation and seek safe and sane situations to act out my fantasies?
Having A Rough Day
There are people who do not share your craycrayfundy/biblestudy life experiences, HARD, who are nevertheless turned on by the exact same things you are. Human beings are primates, our cultures and societies involve all sorts of overt and covert power dynamics, and almost all humans wind up eroticizing those power dynamics to greater or lesser extents. Some of us eroticize them in subtle ways (pleasure taken in “servicing” a partner, a desire to be held down, a mild foot fetish), others more baroquely (elaborate D/s scenarios complete with props, costumes, and clearly defined roles), but power, as a gross old man once observed, is the ultimate aphrodisiac.
Even if we could determine that your kinks were shaped by your upbringing, HARD, the shit that turns you on is still going to turn you on. And if your kinks are a “fuck you” to the preachers, prudes, and family members who made you miserable—that’s a “fuck you” they earned. Let them have it. (I mean it: Take pictures. Mail ’em to that preacher.)
And remember: There are people out there having vanilla, hetero, missionary intercourse in unhealthy, abusive relationships, HARD. You can explore your sexuality in healthy or unhealthy ways, but you can’t escape who you are and what turns you on. So stop beating yourself up, HARD, and go find a nice, kinky guy who takes that responsibility off your hands. (Here’s some great advice for gay guys just beginning to explore BDSM: tinyurl.com/bensten.)
Reading your column made me a supporter of the LGBT community. The LGBT community deserves equal rights, just like any other group of citizens. Period. However, I must protest Kate Bornstein’s comments in a recent column. She said that sex-positive heterosexuals who support the LBGT community are not “straight” men, but “queer heterosexual” men. Sometimes it’s hard for me to get people who are not gay to support LGBT equality because they’re afraid that someone will call their straightness into question. Don’t make it harder.
Liberal And Straight
Being a big ol’ queer myself, LAS, I viewed Kate’s suggestion as a compliment. But your point is well taken, everyone gets to choose his or her own label, and you’re straight in my book.
DID YOU MAKE AN “IT GETS BETTER” VIDEO? If you identify as LGBT, you’re 18 years of age or older, and you made or appeared in an “It Gets Better” video, science—science!—wants to hear from you about your perspectives and experiences. If you have 15–20 minutes to spare, please take this survey: http://z.umn.edu/itgetsbetter.
ARE YOU MARRIED? Have you had successful flings, affairs, swinging experiences, and three-ways that your friends and family members will never know about? Send me an e-mail, share your story, and I’ll publish it.
I’m not sure what CW2D is asking. I’m not sure what help the old flame has. Dan makes some reasonable guesses… but can folks just be explicit?
Did Dan just make a column of rehashed SLLOTD/QOTD from the Savage Love App? I could have sworn I read CW2D before, and I KNOW I read LaS before (people accused LaS as being FRAUD, the contributor to an earlier column, which I know not to be true).
I’m sure this isn’t the first time, and hey, it’s demanding to read and answer countless letters and emails that come in for both the column and the app, but I’d at least appreciate the usual “I’m too lazy/busy/inebriated” excuse as a heads-up that the column is a rehash.
Oh well.
@1 I think “helping the old flame out” is not, like, moving his sofa into the new apartment. Or maybe that’s what the husband is thinking b/c I am sort of flabbergasted that not only was he cool with her telling him ’bout 3 years of sexting, but he was saying “Sure, help the fellow out.”
Or maybe he was just pretending to listen? “Sure dear, that sounds good. Whatever you say.”
Maybe the best problem ever.
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
I say leave the boyfriend behind. You can’t reheat a souffle.
spoon for the win!
Another consideration for Cw2D– Imagine that a short while after you help out Old Flame your husband says that he wants to have sex with other people too. Play that out in your head. Are you O.K. with that? Imagine that you’re not. For whatever reason, it doesn’t feel right to you. Are you O.K. with your husband quite reasonably telling you that you’re being illogical and unfair and if a big argument with accusation ensues?
My bigger concern is for Old Flame. In my (admittedly limited) experience a little exposure to the One That Got Away doesn’t bring answers, doesn’t bring closure, doesn’t heal the hole in the heart. He thought that contacting you would make him feel better about where he was in life. But that wasn’t enough. He needed sexy texting. That wasn’t enough. He wants to have sex with you. The direction this is going is that he won’t be satisfied unless he opens up a whole relationship that might very well include jealousy of your husband. If not that, you may want to break up with for reasons unrelated to your relationship with your husband. If that case, he’s going to be as unhappy as he was when his marriage broke up. I see a can of worms. Can’t you just friend him on facebook?
A bit more for Cw2D– Dan is right that marriages don’t have to be killed by infidelity, but this isn’t something you’d be doing for YOUR marriage. It’s not something you’d be doing for you at all. This is something you’d be doing for some guy who contacted you after 23 years. Unless I’m missing something, but you say that you’re happily married and that your husband has been terrific. I’m not suggesting that you’d be doing something horrible to your husband. He’s made it clear that you wouldn’t be. I’m wondering about your motives in general. If a complete stranger said he needed 10 grand, do you give it to him? What’s in it for you? Here’s a guy who needs you to have sex with him. What’s in it for you?
Sadly, just LW2’s statement “I’m standing in a bookstore on Castro Street” makes it clear it was at least a few years ago.
Here’s a question about HARD’s issue. Does anyone else worry that being extremely open-minded means that the perv inside us has to work that much harder to find dirty, shameful stuff to work with? As a parent, I’m hoping to keep my teens on a pretty strict leash, so when they rebel, they do so by smoking pot and making out in the car; not by smoking crack or fucking the football team.
Similarly, if I felt dirty about masturbating and oral sex, then I might never have “graduated” to threesomes, BDSM, and anal. (And indeed, I worry that what I do now will start to feel tame to me, and I’ll be looking for more intense thrills in the future…)
Or do I just worry too much?
Yes, yes: Every couple you know who’s ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced. And that may be true—of the couples whose three-ways and flings you know about. You know lots of couples who’ve had three-ways and flings who aren’t divorced, but you don’t know you know them. Most married couples want to be perceived as monogamous even—especially!—when they’re not. So your friends who aren’t divorcing as the result of a disastrous fling, affair, swinging experience, three-way, etc., aren’t going to tell you about all the successful flings, affairs, etc., they’ve enjoyed.)
This last bit confused me. If swinging and three-ways were so wonderful, why WOULDN’T the couples/threesomes who have had good experiences with them want to broadcast them, to show the skeptics that they can work?
@Erica
I had very strict and overprotective parents. I did not stop at smoking pot at making out in cars.
Try dressing up in a schoolgirl uniform and spending the night in a hotel with a stranger. Try stuffing my boyfriend’s ecstasy in my underwear in case we encountered authorities. Try soliciting free rides off strangers just to see if it would work. Try a threesome under the influence of at least four different drugs at once. Try hanging out with gang members. Try doing lines in my underwear in the middle of the afternoon, off the top of my head.
All of those were before my 17th birthday.
No… parents don’t get to set the bar for what their children consider “rebellious” unfortunately. If you’d like a book about the influence of parents and what DOES work, I can happily make a reccomendation for you.
On the flipside, I never felt dirty about masturbation (I started too young to know it was supposed to be dirty) or oral (I grew up in the 90’s when Clinton was telling everyone it wasn’t even sex) but I never felt a need to “gradutate” to anything extreme.
Ms Erica, you may have answered your own question. I’d rather not predict your future, but it would not surprise me if your current activities start to feel tame to you.
You sometimes give an impression of being so open-minded that you have half an eye on the door waiting to see what possibility walks in next. It seems to work for you, and if so, great.
Your parenting theory is interesting, but I’m not quite sure how you’re going to pull it off. I suppose it could be the case that the dangers out there are sufficiently great to call for what looks like as a dishonest bargaining strategy. But part of the problem to bear in mind is that, in your attempt to insure your children’s safe teen lives, you could be mortgaging their adult lives to some extent. Although it seems highly implausible to imagine you even trying to make a teen feel dirty or ashamed about masturbating, what if you do that and get a non-rebelling teen with whom it sticks well into adulthood?
Then again, I’m tempted to take the other side and say, why not do it thoroughly? Get them going to the most restrictive church you can find two or three times on Sundays and half the weekdays besides, and send them to a school of a similar philosophy. Then their rebellions would still make them look more tame than the vast majority of the population.
I don’t know if this will make you feel any better, but I suspect that, if your offspring are in possession of a reasonable quantity of intelligence, they will realize that their most effective form of rebellion would be to become hard-right Republicans and attempt to badger you into taking them to anti-choice events.
At any event, I wish you luck. The only serious piece of advice I have to offer is not to take either of my parents as a role model, as I assume you’d like your children to contact you voluntarily and enjoy your company in the long years ahead.
@11/12 – thanks for reminding me that I’m not likely to be able to manipulate my teens into just the right kind of rebellion (anti-choice Republicans! Yikes!) You guys are right.
And, no, don’t worry, I certainly wouldn’t shame them for masturbating (though I do insist that it be done in private 🙂
As for me, well, I guess I’ll just have to wait and see where my open-mindedness takes me…
Erica, I haven’t kept my girls on any sort of a leash. I’m an extraordinarily permissive parent, and haven’t had any rebellion from my children. In fact, I find myself concerned that they haven’t acted out in any way that I can discern- these girls are downright prudish, I have a difficult time believing that they are mine. I have done my level best to raise them with an open minded attitude regarding their bodies and their sexuality. I can only hope that serves them in the long run.
Am I the only straight girl who finds HARD’s story about the bookstore hot? Seriously. Other than the shame aspect, that I find distressing. We like what we like; what turns us on isn’t right or wrong, it just is.
My 17 year old says she just hasn’t found the right guy. I made it very clear to her that we were not going to quarrel about hair (whatever she wants is fine with me), or clothing (within reason — no junior hooker look), or musical choices (whatever she likes is fine with me). I did tell her that she needed to keep her grades up, that smoking cigarettes or pot would destroy her singing voice, and that I had too many students get derailed for serious drug use. I told her that I’d prefer to be in on her plans to have sex so that we can talk through being careful and choosing well. By taking a no-parental-interference stance on things that many teens regard as VERY important (hair/clothes/music), it has freed us up to keep in close communication about the rest of it. Whew.
A lot depends on the unknown nature of CW2D’s marriage. People often hear what they want to hear and not what they are really being told. I am skeptical of her assetions without corroboration from her husband.
I’m not sure she understands just how much power and control she’d be giving TPS. She has much to lose and little to gain from this situation. She should honestly ask herself how she would react if the situation was reversed.
CW2D: At this point I’d quote the late great actor / NASCAR driver, Paul Newman, when once asked by a journalist if he was ever tempted to stray from his 50 year marriage to Joanne Woodward:
“Why would I go out for hamburger? I’ve got steak at home!”
Sarah, you’re the kind of mom I hope to be when my daughter reaches 17. Why don’t more parents realize that things like crazy hair just don’t matter? In the end I think the specific “rules” are less important than just always maintaining open lines of communication with your kid. My mom wasn’t the greatest, but she DID take me Planned Parenthood BEFORE it was urgent to do so.
@16 Sarah: I’m with danfan @19: You do sound like a cool Mom! Kudos!
@19 how did she (or you) know it was time to go?
HARD – do you think this self-analysis is a way to rationalise away the guilt your upbringing has left you with? I know that when I was younger I tried to come up with feminist analyses of my own subby fantasies.
Didn’t work. In the end, I just had to say, ‘Screw it; I like what I like,’ and put my feminism into saying that I had the right to enjoy my own sexuality no matter what it was.
Maybe you need to do the same and put your ‘reaction’ into saying, ‘Screw it; I like what I like no matter what influence my upbringing had on it.’ You’re probably never going to work it out because people are much too complicated, even if they’ve had a totally sex-positive upbringing.
Your hard-on might annoy the people who taught you kinks were bad, but that doesn’t mean it exists to be a fuck-you to them. I think you might be confusing cause and effect here. A hard-on mostly exists to say ‘Fuck me!’, not ‘Fuck you.’ The fact that you’re still linking it to your upbringing says to me that you’re still feeling the guilt, but looking at it upside down – ‘You feel this because you’re sinful’ has turned into ‘You feel this because you heard too much about sin’, but they’re sung to the same tune.
If I were you, I’d stop fighting the shame and eroticise it instead. 😉
Catballou, but it seems that your “downright prudish” girls have rebelled against you, at least in the sense of them going against what you apparently represent to them, an “extremely permissive” and open person. Rebellion can take many forms. But hey, don’t worry, once they’re a little older and grow out of their rebellious stage they’ll probably realize ole’ mom made pretty good sense, most of the time and will likely turn it up a notch or two….
EricaP, who wrote: As for me, well, I guess I’ll just have to wait and see where my open-mindedness takes me…
Indeed. Because, at least as far as my experience goes, there are no guarantees in life, ever.
Asking whether or not the stuff you’re doing now will seem tame and unerotic a few years later on is a ‘kinkier’ version of a very old question that everybody asks themselves about the things they like in life. The vanilla version is something like, ‘will I really be always in love with the person I’m in love with now? Especially when I hear so many depressing stories of divorces, people growing indifferent to each other, etc. etc. etc.?’
Well, you never know. People give recipes: try variation, evolve and change together with your partner, be open, try and explore new things (and not only sexual ones), etc. But of course there are no guarantees. God knows what will happen in 10, 20 or 30 years.
But one thing I’ve noticed in life is that, unless you’re clinically depressed, there always are interesting things popping up. Relationships are also like that: you think they’re boring because you keep looking at the same issues, but if you watch other sides of it you (I) always find new things to do and think about.
And so, ultimately, is sex. Sex is not so limited that you’re really “always” doing the same thing. It’s always different, if you want to look at the details that are different rather than at the ones that are the same. And usually, if you take a break from it for some time, the desire builds up, and you start missing the things you thought you were almost bored about. Suddenly they become interesting again.
This is life in general, not just sex, I think, Erica. Will life ever seem boring to me? Will someday the next language I try to learn seem boringly ‘just the same’ as the previous one? Will I someday lose any interest in getting up in the morning and just want to wait for death in my cozy warm bed? I surely don’t think so. I can’t of course predict the future; but I get the strong feeling that life is always so full of different details that, if I ever do feel that ‘bored’ by it, it will be because I decided to selectively look at those parts of life that are repetitive rather than looking at those parts that are not. ‘Two prisoners looked out from the prison’s bars; one saw mud, the other saw stars…’
(On a more specific tone: @19, you asked: “how did se (or you) know it was time to go? The Dutch tend to have a standard answer to this (at least the liberal Dutch): by the time she has her first menstruation, the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy raises its ugly head. Assuming you’ve kept your communication channels open, you talk to her about her having sex, and when that will happen, etc. No details of who she is or isn’t dating are necessary. The ongoing communication via this channel will make it clear whether or not it’s the right time. Usually by 14-15 most daughters (of liberals) have already gone with their mothers to the gynecologist and got anticonceptional prescriptions (fully paid by mom’s health insurance); the age may vary a little for specific cases.)
HARD, I grew up as a fundy xian. I’m a Domme now. It’s possible to overcome the brainwashing and shame, but it takes work. I would suggest Margaret Windell’s book, “Leaving the Fold.” It’s written by a psychologist and has a lot of helpful exercises.
As far as the kink being a response to the guilt and shame…maybe. But maybe not. As it’s still possible to be psychologically free from all that baggage and maintain your kinks.
I do.
Personally – I find being called a queer straight girl an honor!
Teal, who wrote: If I were you, I’d stop fighting the shame and eroticise it instead. 😉
Indeed, HARD, I agree with Teal here. Maybe you could even include the prudish people in your upbringing in your fantasies? ‘Now, Mr Preacher, look at what I’m going to do to you with this ball gag…’ 🙂
HARD, speaking for myself, I also had a very difficult time trying to accept my own kinks and not wonder what bad things they meant about myself. (To this very day, I wonder if there doesn’t lurk something self-destroying, something dark and evil, in the very heart of hearts of submissiveness… There does seem to be a danger of exaggerating and becoming addicted to one’s degradation in an unhealthy way that leads to self-denial rather than to growth and pleasure. But then again, isn’t everything harmful when you exaggerate?).
One is always looking for explanations, right? How come I have this little kink rather than that, or even rather than no kink at all, “like everybody else”? There has to be an explanation! I’ll know more about myself, I’ll understand what (destructive?) motivations lead me to be so interested in this kink rather than in “normal” sex if I find out where it comes from…
Well, I’ve come to realize you could similarly wonder about anything else in your life. How come you like sports? Or cars? Or playing poker with your friends? Or solving crossword puzzles? Or playing the guitar? Or… or… But if I spend too much time thinking about the causes of my pleasures, I end up not enjoying them. It’s better, I think, to worry about how to enjoy them in a sane, non-destructive way than wondering about their deep causes.
Goethe, the great German poet, wrote a poem I like very much about this very topic. In case you don’t know it, here it is, in the original German (yes, I can’t resist it, sue me) followed by an English translation by yours truly.
—
Die Freuden
Es flattert um die Quelle
Die wechselnde Libelle,
Mich freut sie lange schon;
Bald dunkel und bald helle,
Wie der Chamäleon,
Bald rot, bald blau,
Bald blau, bald grün;
O dass ich in der Nähe
Doch ihre Farben sähe!
Sie schwirrt und schwebet, rastet nie!
Doch still, sie setzt sich an die Weiden.
Da hab ich sie! Da hab ich sie!
Und nun betracht ich sie genau,
Und seh ein traurig dunkles Blau –
So geht es dir, Zergliedrer deiner Freuden!
—–
Joys
Around a strem nearby
flutters a dragonfly
that pleases me to no end.
Now dark, now light,
a chameleon’s flight,
now red, then blue,
or blue, then green;
oh! if only I were nearer
so that its hue
could now be seen!
It hovers and whirrs, never rests
But wait — it now sits on a willow
I’ve got it! I’ve got it now,
I can now see the real hue —
a dark, depressing blue.
So will it happen to you, analyzer of your own joys!
EricaP– It might help if you stopped thinking about your children’s growing up as rebellion. Kids differentiate from their parents. From the time they’re infants, they look around a world that’s different from their parents’, have experiences different from their parents’, interpret those experiences differently and form their own opinions. It’s rebellion if the parent thinks the child should grow up to have exactly the same thoughts, emotions, likes, dislikes and opinions. It’s just growing up if the parents don’t think they own the children or should control them to that degree.
Imagine you were talking about volleyball where your daughter loves the game and you’ve never taken to it. Is it rebellion if she comes home pleased to be on the team? No different if we’re talking about sex and politics and no different if we’re talking about differentiating to the left or the right.
In fact, every time I hear parents talking about rebellious teenagers I privately wonder about how much they’re controlling, how much they’re able to let go, and whether they’re able to appreciate their children for who they are as individuals in the first place.
@cyranothe2nd, that sounds like a journey worthy of a book. I hope you’ll write it; I’d love to read it. 🙂
@31, very well said. I agree entirely, and I couldn’t have put it as elegantly and succinctly as you did.
mydriasis @11: I’d like that book recommendation, even if EricaP doesn’t. 🙂
EricaP-9- Keep going with the drugs analogy. I came of age in the late 70s when we were already starting to make fun of the anti-drugs propaganda/education that promised us that if we tried marijuana the thrill wouldn’t be great enough and we’d start shooting up heroin. It didn’t take a lot of looking around to realize that plenty of us tried dope and stopped there. The ones who became addicted to opiates were likely troubled in the first place. Marijuana was not a gateway drug.
Thus sex. I don’t understand everything about how addiction and risky behavior work, but I can look around and see that masturbation and sexual exploration don’t lead to soul-crushing promiscuity for the vast number of us. It might feel that way to the few for whom sex is not a wonderful experience, but I suspect that the thrill seekers who keep hoping but never finding satisfaction in dirtier and pervier sex were never the sort to find satisfaction to begin with.
(Ankylosaur-31 is an infinite loop.)
Indeed, Crinoline — I had meant you@29, not myself@31. Oopsie! :=| …
@ 10 (Snarky)–
If swinging and three-ways were so wonderful, why WOULDN’T the couples/threesomes who have had good experiences with them want to broadcast them, to show the skeptics that they can work?
Well, I’m a happily married person in two long-term poly relationships– much more invested in the identity than the couples you’re talking about– and I still am reluctant to present as anything other than monogamous in a lot of contexts. This is for two reasons:
1) I don’t want people to assume my marriage is in trouble, that I’m unfaithful, that I’m promiscuous, etc– and I’m pretty sure that, for a lot of people, even if I tell them we’re happy and faithful and secure and it’s great, they won’t believe me. They’ll think I’m lying, to them or to myself. People have a very clear idea of what sex-outside-of-marriage means, and I don’t know that I’ll be able to change their minds. If I’ve got anything invested in the relationship with them, I’m not always willing to risk it just to correct their misperceptions. I know that nothing’s going to change if I don’t come out about this, but at the same time… on a personal level, it feels like a bigger risk than it’s worth.
2) As a happily-married person, I don’t particularly need to be out to everyone about being nonmonogamous in order to be sexually satisfied. If there’s someone I’m particularly interested in, I’ll let that person know… but it’s not like being queer, there’s not a whole host of legal and political reasons why being out is important. It’s just about getting laid, and for that, people I’m not interested in don’t have to know.
TL;DR version: Telling people you’re an ethical slut is scary, because they often don’t take it well.
34– In that case, thanks. Some of the rebellious things I’ve done that have caused my mother no end of grief: being good at math, dating a nice guy, liking to cook and bake, making friends with someone who was good at languages, moving out of town at age 25, not liking to perform in front of large groups, preferring neutral colored clothes to bright ones, and wondering if civil disobedience could be a good idea.
@2 – yes, that’s not terribly uncommon. Two of these are not repeats, which is also par for the course.
@4 – Perfect!
I think CW2D is making a big mistake trying to re-heat the souffle. I think it’s gonna blow up in her face when this guy won’t shove off after she gets tired of him.
The advice to HARD is spot on: the kinky is hard-wired to some degree or not. Sure, taboo heightens things a bit, but it’s more the seasoning, not the substance.
I had permissive parents, did not get into anything harder than smoking pot, and generally stayed on track in life. I also knew I was a perv from a very young age and it had nothing to do with repressive upbringing – not a word about any of that was mentioned. In fact, I’ve slowly (because I really don’t want to look too closely) come to recognize and realize that I am far from unique in my family; realizing your grandparents made extensive use of the Kama Sutra as a manual (these were 19th Century people) kind of clues you in.
Once again, three spectacularly boring letters. But I’m glad he posted one about that misguided idiot Kate Bornstein.
Mr Ank @28 – I don’t think there’s a universal or even a general answer to your wonder. Perhaps it might work to say, Open too many doors and you’ll probably get Zonked, but that does not apply to every deal.
HARD seems to be emitting a rather Wildean aura. There’s the temptation epigram, and probably a reasonable similarity in tastes. I’m not sure if there are traces of Lord Arthur Savile in his burden carrying.
It might be a bit different if this were just one of a number of options, but HARD seems pretty rigidly pointed in one direction. One need not embrace EVERYthing, but definitely wants SOMEthing. I almost wish that HARD were a personal acquaintance of Mr Savage, who would like excel at keeping him sane and safe. Is a Fairy Godfather necessary? Not for some or perhaps most, but it wouldn’t be a bad thing to have.
What interests me most about the letter is HARD’s asking whether these are questions he SHOULDN’T be asking. Certainly they don’t HAVE to be asked. But I’m not sure what downside he sees as possible. It reminds me of a recent discussion of attraction from the other side and whether it’s sufficient just to accept somebody being unattracted by one group or another or whether it’s important to deconstruct for prejudice. The theory was advanced that, if one worked on the prejudice, one would magically start being attracted by members of the group in question.
@29 I like your take on “rebellion” often just meaning “doing their own thing”, but I’ve also seen people get bad grades on purpose, to spite their parents… Surely that’s “rebellion.”
@11/32 – yes, I’d like the book reference too.
@33 – I tried harder drugs than pot. But I saw my friends acting like idiots, making stupid choices on drugs. Those real life consequences made drug use less appealing. My line with my kids is that it’s great to experiment, but you should consider how likely this particular experiment is to interfere with further life experiences (Russian roulette, drunk driving, selling your body on the street, goofing around on cliffs… I went back to mydriasis’ post @11 to see if she had done anything I would put in that category, but no, not really, unless you count “doing lines …off the top of my head” — which sounds like quite the contortionist’s trick 🙂
I’m aiming for some zone of adequate parenting between super-controlling and oblivious. Like everyone else, I think Sarah (@16) looks like a great model. But wherever you draw your lines (at “keep [your] grades up,” for instance), you face being the person who doles out consequences or expresses disapproval. At that point, I think a lot comes down to tone. Just as one can express dissatisfaction to one’s spouse in a loving tone or a dismissive, disparaging tone, so too with parenting, the goal is to find the tone that says “I care about you and wish you would rethink your choices,” rather than “I knew you would screw up again like you always do.” Sarah’s method of pointing out the natural consequences is very helpful along those lines.
I’ve always had an interest in the kinky, deviant and subversive, which is why I started reading Dan’s column so many years ago. I’ve learned so much about how to be a better lover and a better person. Now, thanks to comments, I get to benefit from the wisdom and experience of you guys too, on of all things a topic as unkinky as parenting. Thanks for sharing your experiences guys! And thanks for the Goethe ankylosaur!
P.S. I think I found a new kink: Reading mundane comments posted by people who I know to be into kinky sex. Is that pervy?
@39 “The theory was advanced that, if one worked on the prejudice, one would magically start being attracted by members of the group in question.”
I think the hypothetical was: imagine a transwoman Gloria who is indistinguishable from ciswomen. She was born with male genitalia, but from the age of three, she told her parents she was a girl; she went to school as a girl; she took hormones at puberty to approximate a woman’s puberty experience; she had surgery at 16 to construct female genitalia. Now imagine a straight guy, Joe, who thinks he could never be attracted to a transwoman. He meets Gloria and is extremely attracted to her. After dating for a few months, and having enjoyable sex together, he asks her to go on birth control so they can stop using condoms. She explains that she was born with male genitalia, and thus can’t get pregnant. He freaks out, and dumps her that night, because he feels he has been having sex with “someone who used to be a man.” That’s just prejudice. Maybe they have to break up because he wants to have children the usual way, but for him to say “she used to be a man” is just silly.
No one ever claimed that an unprejudiced straight man would be attracted to all transwomen — that’s equally silly, since straight men aren’t attracted to all ciswomen.
@28 I love that Goethe poem, ankylosaur. But is he really saying that the “sad, dark blue” is the real color? Isn’t the neat thing about color that it really is whatever it looks like to us? Things change color in different light; to me it makes no sense to say that in dim lighting one just isn’t seeing a thing’s color accurately. It’s like Schrödinger’s cat: if you pin the dragonfly down, you thereby assign it an unchanging color, but the colors it had in motion were just as real. I see Goethe as saying one should allow one’s pleasures the freedom to shift in meaning & interpretation; not as saying that one should never examine one’s pleasures at all.
HARD, there is no ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ when wondering about kinks. They just are. I was raised pretty permissively but I am very kinky. Don’t feel shame about your sexual desires – that’s what your old pastors, congreation, etc. want you to feel. Just because you like to read about/ engage in BDSM doesn’t make you any different from anyone else. You can still be your own person when you aren’t having sex (assuming you are a sub).
EricaP – actually having a tight rein on your kids might drive them to rebell even more. Anyway ‘rebellion’ is just a way for a kid to find themselves as separate beings from their parents. The most important thing you can do for your kids is love them with all your heart and make sure they know it. Let them know you accept and respect the people that they are/are becoming and there will be nothing to ‘rebel’ against. I speak from my own experience.
Great advice to CW2D.
As for the guy who objected to the label of “Queer Heterosexual,” I believe Kate’s label were referring to the man’s POLITICS and not his sexuality. I.E. — A Queer Heterosexual is s straight man who supports queer people. I think it’s a great label and I will suggest it to some of my straight friends who support queers.
I had friends back when who were hard-core hippies. Their kids didn’t become super-hippies to rebel–they signed up for ROTC.
Kids don’t *need* to rebel, they need to define themselves for themselves.
@16 Sarah – I just printed your post and taped it above my desk. I hope to be your kind of parent when my kids reach their teens. Way to go!
“Queer Heterosexual” — been there, done that, found out quickly that, to the people who object to homosexuality, that sounds exactly like “fag.” So now I just let them think that (unless they’re conservatives, and in a men’s room).
@35, Gaudior,
It’s even worse for people who married expecting to be monogamous for life, and had to work out changes in the rules informally, on the fly. Explaining to another man, even (especially) one you’ve known all your life, that your wife is sleeping with someone else, and you’re okay with that, is beyond difficult. Even if they’ve flown the freak flag before, it changes the way they look at you. Not to mention the fact that you have to explain why she’s not available to him, in particular.
@14
I don’t know you or your children but – for the record – just because you think they’re prudish doesn’t mean they are. My dad actually thought I was a lesbian because I never he never heard me mention a boy, I never brought a boy over, etc etc etc. Some kids are just good at keeping their secrets on lock. Good news, right? 😛
@32/40
http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/displa…
I haven’t read it myself but I’ve read several by Gabor Mate and a lot of his books talk about development and parenting. He is bang on. His books are written with a solid hard science (neurobiology, endocrine, etc) basis along with a deeply compassionate and intuitive outlook. I avidly read parenting books, magazines and articles when I was a kid (I was into psychology, what can I say) and he approaches things differently in a somewhat subtle but really important way. I would totally reccomend anything written by him to any parent and I plan to read it before I ever have kids.
But since this is the interwebs you don’t need to go in blind and take my word for it. (Or the many glowing review quotes) Here’s a clip where he talks a bit about things including bullying, ADHD, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tdljIW86…