My boyfriend of 16 months and
I have a great relationship. He loves my blowjobs, but he will not kiss
me if I have his come in my mouth. It grosses him out. We have talked
about this, and he won’t even try. I have no problem if he kisses me
after going down on me. I just want him to try. Is there something
wrong with asking him to taste himself? I do it all the time and love
it.

Missing Kisses

It’s funny that your question—with its
hint of gay panic—should arrive today. I’ve been on vacation with
the family all week snowboarding in beautiful British Columbia, and
what I enjoy most—besides the snowboarding and the half-naked,
fully stoned Australian snowboard instructors lolling around in hot
tubs at the end of the day—is watching the straight boys who
refuse to sit four to a chairlift. They want to ride up alone or ride
up two at a time on a four-seater with two empty seats between ’em.
They seem to think gayness can be contracted through thigh-to-thigh
contact.

Which it can.

Now, MK, there’s kissing someone with your
come on her breath and then there’s kissing someone with your come in
her mouth. It sounds like you’re interested in the latter, which makes
it sound like you’re interested in passing some of your boyfriend’s
load into his mouth—i.e., snowballing—and not simply being
rewarded with a kiss, his come on your breath, for a blowjob well-done.
And that’s an entirely different wad of spunk.

Just because you enjoy tasting yourself on
his lips doesn’t mean your boyfriend will enjoy or should have to enjoy
mouthing his own load. First, there’s a significant difference in
volume and consistency between your kissing his glazed lips and his
eating his own spunk. And then there’s this: After a woman comes, MK,
she’s still in a groove, still capable of more orgasms, still cranked
up. After ejaculating, a man is essentially uncranked. He’s not capable
of another orgasm (not right away, anyway)—he’s been knocked out
of his groove. So even if the idea of snowballing appeals to a man as
you’re blowing him, it might not hold the same appeal the moment after
he comes.

Some men are afraid of tasting their own
come because they believe that doing so, like sitting too close on a
chairlift, can turn a guy gay. And it’s not an unreasonable fear: not
because it will turn a guy gay, but because, judging from my mail, a
lot of women are convinced that any man who would taste his own come
must secretly be gay. It’s possible that your boyfriend is dying to
taste himself, MK, but, like the boys on the chairlifts, is afraid of
getting a reputation if he goes ahead with this and you blab about it
to your friends.

I am at the Meshuggah show at
El Corazón as I write this. There are tons of guys I consider
hot here, 98 percent of whom, I’m sure, are straight. But I got a vibe
off this one guy. This is such a macho environment, though, that
there’s a considerable amount of danger in asking the question “So, you
gay?”

I remember an episode of Law and Order where
Jerry Orbach tried to determine if a suspect was in AA by asking a
secret question, something like “Are you a friend of Bill W.?” The idea
was that the question was innocuous if you weren’t in AA.

Since you are the king of “santorum” and
“pegging” and “saddlebacking,” I thought maybe you could invent a
secret question for masculine gay men in masculine environments.
Something like, “Hey, do you like to barbecue?” So how ’bout it? Can
you declare the official secret are-you-a-masculine-gay-guy
question?

Men Are Cute Hot Objects

The best I could come up with on my own,
MACHO, was this: “A Little Night Music—
original
Broadway cast recording or original London cast?” But that line will
get your ass kicked in a lot of gay bars—as I know from bitter
experience. So let’s toss this out to my readers, the folks who came up
with the definitions for “santorum,” “pegging,” and “saddlebacking”:
Okay, gang, we’re looking for an innocuous question that (1) all fags
everywhere would know the answer to, but (2) no straight guys anywhere
would. My long-suffering interns—their uniforms chafe—await
your suggested questions at mail@savagelove.net.

I had to refrain from opening
this with “Hey, Asshole!” (oops, guess I kind of just did) after
reading your advice to Sex Best One On One, the woman who married a man
who warned her that he could not be monogamous and who then realized
she couldn’t share him. While I agree with your assessment of SBOOO’s
husband—up-front, honest—your assessment of SBOOO is
obviously influenced by your need to have a good rant at
polyamory-unfriendly marriage counselors, family, friends, and the
world at large. SBOOO does not have to apologize for who she is (not as
willing to do long-term nonmonogamy as previously thought) to elitist,
more-liberated-than-thou jerk-offs (hint: you!) after giving it a good
fucking try (12 times!). Pun intended.

Loving Toronto Reader

I am a polyamorist. I am
always up-front with my partners about this, especially if I want to
get serious with them. So many people seem to say that they are fine
with it out of some kind of misguided assumption that they can
eventually change my mind. You know, “Polyamory isn’t real; it’s just a
phase!” You know, like being gay.

I just wanted to say thank you for your
reply to SBOOO! I couldn’t have said it better myself. That was an
absolutely fantastic response. Just like you said, counselors (and for
that matter, family members) always see the polyamorist as the bad guy,
unreasonably refusing to take the simple, easy route of strict
monogamy. It was really nice to finally have someone stand up for us.
Thank you!

While I’m sure you enjoy positive feedback,
saying thank you is cheap. A lot of times you plug various charities
and causes in your column—is there any group you’d like me to
donate to as a more concrete symbol of my appreciation?

Longtime Fan

Some folks think I was too hard on SBOOO,
some think I was just hard enough. Like I said in my original response,
I intentionally came down hard on SBOOO to compensate for the vast and
overwhelming majority of advice professionals who would, per LF, side
aggressively with her because a nonmonogamous partner—even an
honest one like SBOOO’s mate—is always perceived as the bad
guy.

For the record: I am not biased toward
nonmonogamy. But I do think monogamous people should be with each other
and refrain from marrying folks who are self-aware enough to inform
them in advance that they don’t think they’re capable of being
monogamous.

Some folks who wrote in about my advice for
SBOOO raised a good point: I should have come down on the husband as
well. If nonmonogamy was a deal breaker for him, then he was a fool to
marry SBOOO before verifying her ability to be nonmonogamous. Agreed.
So, for the record: SBOOO’s husband? You’re an idiot, too.

Finally, LF, I’m always happy to see money
go to Planned Parenthood.

mail@savagelove.net

242 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. Perfect follow-up to the SBOOO feedback. 🙂

    Is it wrong that I think it would be cute to see four straight guys next to each other on a chair lift?

  2. Okay, here’s the problem with MACHO’s question. Everyone knows (sober alcoholics, raging alcoholics and non-alcoholics) that “friend of Bill W.” means AA. And, for those who didn’t know, now they do.

    When I got sober (over ten years ago), someone told me it was secret code. I *never* use Bill W as secret code, cuz it hasn’t been a secret in many years.

    Also, didn’t “gay” used to be a secret term. Didn’t folks back in the day ask “Are you gay?” and non-gays thought it meant happy and gays thought it meant queer?

  4. I’d never heard the Bill W. thing before. Hm. You learn something every day. But not all shibboleths are common knowledge. Do you have stairs in your house?

  5. Hey Torontonian – why don’t you take umbridge with Sasha? Your ‘Listen to me I’m the Centre of the Universe’ tone does not wash on this side of the 49th.

  8. What question would make a good shibboleth? Something that would fit in at a Superbowl party or a deer hunt, but be recognizable to those in the know.

  10. I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of MK’s question. She said her boyfriend wouldn’t kiss her after fellatio. That seems like she’s not talking about snowballing; she’s talking about kissing, I would think post-swallowing. In that case, he’s probably still hung up on the “gross” factor: the common straight-guy conception of semen-as-waste-product, not unlike urine or feces, that must stay away from their mouths. I tend to think of this as a red flag in relationships; if he thinks of his semen as revolting, then why is he okay with her having to swallow it? Thoughts on that?

  11. I think “friend of Dorothy’s” is pretty appropriate. I’ve heard it once before, but I think it could be pretty useful. Or maybe “friend of Judy/Liza.”

  12. Hmmmm, all male setting but not wanting to tip off or piss off the all males. The easiest thing would be just “How bout them Rams?” (naturally it would change in different states/regions) and the obviously straight guy would blab about the team and the not so straight reply could be just a look of the eye – or a simple “… yessss”
    🙂

  14. For Macho,

    What if he asked if the guy knew (name of popular gay porn star)? Guys who don’t watch gay porn, that is straight guys, probably won’t know, gay dudes will. Plus it is a quick test if your porn tastes are the same.

  15. There’s a third possibility, Dan, that you missed. In his curious pubescent explorations, it is very possible that he’s already tasted his own cum & didn’t like it. I speak from experience. I think a lot of other guys have as well. (I can’t be THAT unique.)

    I had a gf who was just like MK, she wanted to ‘share’ and I politely declined. She did have a strange peculiarity, she was very shy (and sometimes downright reluctant) for me to go down on her. Which is something that I love, can’t seem to get enough. There’s something about the smell of warm, wet pussy that gets me all hot & bothered.

    I think it’s simply just hormones. I’m straight, I like smelling the hormones women give off. Straight women & gay men get excited smelling men & their hormones. I think LC needs to get off her high egalitarian horse. There’s a big difference between equality and homogeny.

  16. “…but he will not kiss me if I have his come in my mouth.”

    LC, this wording makes me think that’s specifically NOT meant to be post-swallowing. How would it still be in her mouth if she already swallowed?

  18. “Some men are afraid of tasting their own come.”

    WHAT?! This from the sex columnist who encourages partners to be GGG? Honey … There’s a lot worse your partner could ask for.

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard Dan say anything along the lines of, “Some men [or women] are AFRAID of having a cock stuffed up their ass.” Hmm …

  20. “
    What if he asked if the guy knew (name of popular gay porn star)? Guys who don’t watch gay porn, that is straight guys, probably won’t know, gay dudes will. “

    This is the first thing that came to my mind. Dan, in one of the podcasts you sussed out that a caller was gay because he referenced a porn actor and I almost didn’t even register that he said it.

    Another possibility: “Are you a santorum fan?”

  21. I’m a fan of Savage Love, and I just finished reading The Committment and thought it was great, but Dan is definitely biased towards non-monogamy. Any time the topic comes up (in the column, the podcast, or on Slog), in any context, he rants about how it’s irrational and unnatural and can’t be successful. That’s fine, just don’t then follow it up with “I’m not biased towards non-monogamy.”

  22. I agree w/ Ananda–the guy should try it at least once, just to be GGG. Even if it’s full snow-balling. Maybe if he’s super opposed, she should trade him something SHE really doesn’t want to do but he’s into.

    I personally don’t mind kissing my wife post-swallow, but SHE actually seems quite reluctant to do so, I think because she hates the taste of (at least my) jizz, and doesn’t want to inflict it on me. Thank god I’ve never had a snowballing request from her…

  24. My boyfriend was originally reluctant to kiss me after I had given him a blowjob. There was no hint of snowballing; he was just that freaked out by his own come. He pointed out that he hadn’t asked me to go down on him and probably never would have asked, because he did think it was kind of degrading. I pointed out it wasn’t degrading if I wanted to do it, I was the one who got to be in control, and if he ever wanted a blowjob again he was going to kiss me afterward, period.

    We worked up to it. For a while he would kiss me on the cheek or the corner of my mouth, hold me, and find other ways to be affectionate. Now we’re ok with normal making out after a blowjob. But baby steps helped.

  25. “straight boys who refuse to sit four to a chairlift…[because they] think gayness can be contracted through thigh-to-thigh contact.”

    Nah. I ski, sleep in the same bed as a gay dude when we travel, and am still 101% straight. (Unless my travel companion used roofies on me at some point. =)

    When I want to ride solo or less-than-full lifts it is because I enjoy quietly looking at the mountains, rather than having some fool yammer at me the whole lift ride about coming up from Denver where he is a stock broker, and, hey buddy, how is your portfolio doing these days….etc.

  27. How can there be come in her mouth if she’s already swallowed? Because come can be sticky and gooey and one swallow doesn’t take care of all of it. It sure doesn’t get rid of the taste right away, which is probably a factor in his distaste.

  28. Didn’t guys used to wear red ties to show their hot-guy-on-guy-action proclivities? I think any “code word” would quickly become well known among the general public. What about, “How ’bout that Proposition 8?” or “don’t you just love the new Pet Shop Boys single?”LOL

    Seriously, isn’t part of the fun having those conversations that are chock full of nuance and innuendo?

  29. “Are you a friend of Dorothy?” is already the standard phrase.

    If it’s not in widespread use, I would guess it’s because it’s not very reliable. If someone answers “yes” to this question, you can be certain he’s gay (and that he now knows you’re gay). But if a guy answers “no” he could be straight, or he could be gay dude who doesn’t know that code. The same would apply to any similar code.

  30. I’m a college student and I love euphamisms so I’ve spent a lot of time revelling in some of the shibboleths and I’ve come to the conclusion that too many gays are divorced from their own culture now for just ONE to be possible. Even the very openly gay guys I know don’t understand “Are you a friend of Dorothy?” I know gays who haven’t seen Will and Grace and who don’t know who Maria Callas is. Many of my friends don’t know Judy, much less that Liza (with a Z) is her daughter. Gays have lost the need for a secret culture. Best I can tell the only good way to figure it out is to ask if they watch Desperate Housewives or Gossip Girl.

  32. Just as “Friends of Bill W.” has become common knowledge, the gay litmus test question will too, so it needs a “gay” answer and a “straight” answer.

    How about, “Who’s your favorite Yankee” and the straight answer is “Ruth” and the gay answer is “A. Rod.”

  34. The first thing that popped into my head was the Continuum. I don’t know about you other homos, but when i came out I found that lots of other gays and the same talk.

    The talk was that sexuality was a continuum and I might move around it, blah, blah, blah.

    But knowing kids today I bet they never heard of it.

    But the whole thing is silly, You need to work on your flirting if you don’t think you can flirt perceptively enough to find out if he is gay.

  35. I don’t like having my boyfriend kiss me after he goes down on me. I did it for about a year without complaining ,hoping I’d get used to the taste, but I never did. Its not THAT bad a taste, but it just makes me a lot less into making out. I finally explained this to him and now he does a quick rinse with listerine afterwards.

  37. As I was reading MK’s question, my thirst thought was the the boyfriend is scared jerk. If you are asking someone to suck your dick, you can’t complain if you can taste it when you kiss them. That comes with the territory so to speak. Don’t like it? No blow jobs for you.

    Then I read Dan’s answer suggesting that the guy doesn’t want to snowball and his reasons why. It is not an unreasonable answer. I’ve been in that position myself. I told my wife she should snowball me, but as soon as I came, the switch was turned off and I just didn’t care anymore. Still did, but the act didn’t have the erotic thrill or connection that I had in my mind.

    Dan is right. Guys have an off switch and it is about half a second after ejaculation. I’ll cop to be guilty of that and admitting I’m off even faster and I have a longer than average refactory period.

    However the letter didn’t say that she was talking about snowballing. She compared it to kissing after going down on her, which I would take to mean that she may have a drop or two on her lips, but she has either swallowed the majority or it is on another part of her face/body.

    Hate to say it, but I disagree.

    But what do I know, I’m not the expert. 🙂

    bob

  38. How about asking someone if they are “a friend of Bertha’s?” which is one some lesbians I know have used. Or “in the family” is another one that I’ve heard…but these are from women, so I don’t know if they translate to the boyz…

  39. the problem with any secret code/question is that by the time everyone who you want to know it knows it, a lot of people who you don’t want to know it will also know it. Just like a lot of people who’ve never been to AA know who Bill W. is, a lot of non gay and even gay unfriendly people will end up knowing what our question means, rendering it useless for its intended purpose.

  40. “I don’t think I’ve ever heard Dan say anything along the lines of, “Some men [or women] are AFRAID of having a cock stuffed up their ass.” Hmm …”

    Ananda, that’s a good point, but you are overlooking a difference between a woman receiving anal and a guy eating his own cum: The woman receiving anal will only endear herself more to her man, but the man tasting his own cum (as D.S. points out) runs the risk of alienating his woman by putting the seeds (no pun intended) in her mind that her man might be gay.

    Yeah, I know that you and your female friends probably wouldn’t react this way to a guy kissing you after you blow him. Plenty of woman would, though … even some of the ones who request a snowball.

    On the other hand, these two have been together for 16 months, so she’s probably pretty damn sure he’s straight by now. This guy needs to suck it up.

  41. Not sure how I feel about the spunk flavored kiss- Generally, I won’t lay it on a guy, because I know most guys are squeamish. And yes, it does seem like a double standard given that I’m expected to lick his fingers, make out with him and taste myself like I’m a porn star.

    Maybe I should do the snow ball test to see if he really loves me,lol. Pass: I marry him. Fail: it’s back to trolling the internet for a date so I can find a guy who is secure enough in his masculinity to eat his own jizz.

  42. “the problem with any secret code/question is that by the time everyone who you want to know it knows it, a lot of people who you don’t want to know it will also know it.”

    This is just like straight people (mostly straight guys) ruining fun gay clubs or ruining Halloween in the Castro. This is not a reason to abandon code; just to keep changing it.

  43. My ex would never kiss after I swallowed his cum and I thought the same thing as LC, “Why is it okay for me to swallow it and you won’t even kiss me?!” That said, it wasn’t a deal-breaker. I’d drink a few gulps of water and kissing would resume later. My current boyfriend has no qualms about sticking his tongue in my mouth moments after I’ve swallowed (but no interest in snowballing, either) and now, having felt the immediate intimacy of the post-BJ kiss, it probably would be a deal breaker in the future. If I were MK, “I won’t swallow if you won’t kiss.” and if he won’t kiss, spit the cum right on his pubes afterwards and make him clean it up himself!

  44. “Dan is definitely biased towards non-monogamy. Any time [monogamy]comes up … in any context, he rants about how it’s irrational and unnatural and can’t be successful.”

    Well, you’re exaggerating. Dan doesn’t say monogamy can’t be successful- he says it is rarely successful. Big difference.

    Saying that monogamy is rarely successful is not a bias; it is objective fact.

  45. Those straight boys who won’t sit four to a chairlift are actually snowboarders who haven’t yet figured out how to get off a chairlift without falling. Skiers and snowboarders who know what they’re doing just want to get up the mountain as fast as possible.

  46. “if he thinks of his semen as revolting, then why is he okay with her having to swallow it? Thoughts on that?”

    LC, maybe he is OK with his woman swallowing his cum because he knows that it does not bother her. Like vegetarian who makes a ham sandwich for their lover.

    Also, for a lot of people, the idea of each lover having a particular role in the sex is part of the fun. This guy, like most straight guys, gets off on his woman taking the role of the cum swallower.

    This guy may be telling MK and even himself that he won’t snowball because he is “grossed out,” but the taste of cum may in fact be a secondary issue. The primary issue may be that he just doesn’t want to alter the cum-role-dynamic, like a guy who spanks his woman but doesn’t want her to spank him.

    Is this fair? Not really. But it’s different from what you seem to be implying: that MK’s man must have a low opinion of MK because he likes her doing something which he himself does not want to do. Selfishness and misogyny often go together, but they are not exactly the same thing.

  47. “Don’t we go to the same church?” used to be code for, “Aren’t we both gay?” You weren’t actually asking about religious services. This was probably when there was fewer people who were comfortable with being gay AND with being churchgoers…

  48. Don’t like the thought of tasting my own cum … don’t think it’s gay. I don’t understand why women think it’s cool to taste their juice on my lips. I mean, I don’t get it?

    As for cramming four straight men on a chair lift. It’s not a homophobia thing, its a personal space thing. Americans are big on giving each other personal space. I also know, that as a 6’5” male, I have a large ass, it’s in shape, but it is proportionately large. I’m not self concious of my ass, but I am concerned that it will reach into other peoples personal space.

    When I go to Canada, I am amazed at how god damn small everything is! The people are small, the rooms are small, the food portions are small, the chairs are small. The only thing big about Canada, is the outdoors or the mountain you ski on! (Maybe if they would put down the damn cigarrettes?).

  49. I have a bisexual husband who loves sucking dick, and has even nearly cum in his pants from tasting another man’s cum. But he has no interest in his own because, as Dan mentioned, by the time he comes, he’s lost his most filthy attractions and then it’s gross to him by then.

  50. Gah! Do you know how long the chair lines at Whistler are? And I am being delayed from the powder by idiots afraid of catching gay??
    Lets throw their asses in a sauna together and have them flagellate each other with willow branches. If that doesn’t turn them gay maybe they can accept riding 4 to a chair so I can get up the mountain faster, and if it does turn them gay….well, then I guess they’ll be in the sauna most of the day then anyways, and the mountain is all mine!

  51. MK to me, “waahhh *whine* he won’t his boogers and I love eating my boogers whats wrong with him that he won’t eat them or kiss me when I eat them?” Damn B he just doesn’t like it get over it.

  52. If MK’s boyfriend was a woman refusing to even try something her partner wanted, Dan would have been all DTMFA before the end of the first paragraph.

  53. “Friend of Dorthy” has been done to death. Even my brothers know that…

    The question needs to be something two straight guys would say to each other, but only gay men would know that it’s code:
    “Do you know anything about automatic transmissions?”
    “Make sure it’s lubed well…”

    Okay, bad example… but you get the idea. I figure Dan’s readers are pretty clever and can think of something perfect.

  55. If you can’t tell whether he wants to fuck you, he doesn’t want to fuck you. There is no secret code called for. And really there is something totally creepy about trying to start one.

    That being said, when my sister wanted to know if a guy in her dance class was gay or not, i recommended starting up a round of this friendly game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck,_Marry…

  56. “Try this: Hi, I’m gay. What do you think about that?
    No good? Then forget about getting equal rights or even simple respect.”

    YES! Thank you.

  57. “If MK’s boyfriend was a woman refusing to even try something her partner wanted, Dan would have been all DTMFA before the end of the first paragraph.”

    As many examples of women dating guys into rape play demonstrate, that is patently untrue.

  58. Re Missing Kisses

    Giving good head is hard work. As a straight guy I wouldn’t know this myself, but I do know that the better a BJ is the more it prolongs my erection and thus intensifies the eventual OOOOHHH MMMMYY GAWWWDDD!!!

    This must require exceptional diligence and patience, and a good degree of skill to bring me right up there and avoid gagging. I like to share a good deep kiss soon thereafter — not because I am a fan of ‘snowballing’ (which I had never heard of) but to let her know that I am not in the least grossed out by that which is, after all, dribbling down her chin.

    This is more than affectionate and thankful. It is gentlemanly! At least the ladies seem to think so.

  59. Oh hell, if a guy expects me to swallow and kiss him after he goes down on me, he can damn well not act like my lips are radioactive ’cause they’ve touched his jizz. If he’s that self-conscious and grossed out by sex, he’s not worth fucking.

  60. “Friend of Dorothy” is an ancient codeword, dudes. I’m 57, and its use predates me by a lot… like when was the Wizard of Oz a new movie? The reason this codeword and all codewords already in use are ancient is because being in the closet in now an out of date practice. To quote Harvey, “come out, come out, wherever you are…” Get a grip, dudes, you’re gay, live with it — well.

  62. so sboo and her husband are both idiots. that means they belong together.

    but seriously, i was wondering why you didn’t throw out the possibility of her pretending to not know about her husband’s forays, and him pretending not to forage. the “willing suspension of disbelief” you talk about, often in regards to porn might be an option here if they really really want to stay married.

  63. 4 deep on a chair = crash at the top of the lift.

    2 deep on a chair = no crash and it’s more comfortable.

    There’s nothing related to homophobia in this behavior (although it’s quite selfish and rude if there’s a long line). Also, the holder of the weed only has to smoke out one person, not three.

  64. “Try this: Hi, I’m gay. What do you think about that?

    No good? Then forget about getting equal rights or even simple respect.”

    Tell that to the guy that just got gay bashed in Central District…

  65. my name here ….

    yeah, I forgot about the crash and delay aspect when four total strangers are on the lift and don’t communicate well.

  67. How’s this for an “are you gay” ice breaker? If a guy you think might rock your world if he swings that way walks up to the seat next to you in a bar, you can ask as you politely pull the bar stool out for him to sit on “would you like me to turn this over for you or do you prefer the cushion side up?”….LOL Sorry, just had to pull from the how do you seat 4 gay men at a bar with one seat available joke. 😉 Rock on Dan, if I were gay and if I were male you would be my dream dude!

    Lastly, I used to date a guy who would given the chance (either he had mastrubated himself to orgasm in front of me, or he had pulled out) would not just taste his own cum but he would eat it ALL…at first it was kind of interesting but then it kind of grossed me out. Not because I thought he was secretly gay but I started to think if he would eat all of that, maybe he was eating his boogers too. So I DTMF. 🙂

  68. In my family, we have our own ephamism for our beloved gay members: “he doesn’t go to the barn”. Comes from my cousin that was the first ‘out’ member of our family and was always known as the boy in the family that didn’t like to hang out in the barn with the rest of the boys – wanted to be in the house doing ‘house’ things. So the question ‘does he go to the barn’ is our question. If no, then he’s gay. Now that I type it, it would seem that the barn boys are probably closeted.

  69. “Tell that to the guy that just got gay bashed in Central District…”

    Who can he thank for that? Who will be responsible for the next generation of assaults? The haters have always and will always be with us. You can stop waiting for the coast to be clear. It never will be.

  72. my question…how can guys be so weird about touching each other (sitting to close, hugging, etc.) because they think it makes them gay, but they’ll get together in big groups to watch porn and jack off in the same room, but that’s perfectly straight???? I mean, it seems like the first things are the more innocent ones…

  73. Straight guys who are half naked wrestle each other, play football and pile up on top of each other all the time what makes you think we can’t sit next to each other on the ski lift chair? As for the guy who didn’t want to kiss his girl after a blow job, I think thats bullshit too. I don’t think much of oral sex performed on me one way or the other but when my partner wanted to swallow I managed to cum in her mouth. Afterward we shared a long deep kiss. To me it intensified the intimacy and was hot as hell!!! As an HIV educator, I think it is human to share body fluids with your sexual partner. That is why I think condoms are such a poor alternative and hence the spread of HIV/AIDS.

  74. Like some have said, any code will eventually be common knowledge and then it’s the same as asking, “are you gay?” – which defeats the purpose in the first place. So guess what? It’ll never truly work. Get over it. Those “macho” guys at Meshuggah are probably all fags anyway.

  75. I have done a lot of work with black gay men and the code was Are in the family? or Are you on the team? If the answer was yes that indicated you are gay.

  76. I don’t think MACHO needs a question that only gay guys are going to recognize – just one clearly recognizable by gay guys and not recognized by straight guys that would kick his ass for asking such a question. There are, of course, plenty of straight guys that read this column and who will all know what Dan eventually comes up with. I would think most of the people that would read this column wouldn’t be offended by a question about their orientation and certainly wouldn’t kick someone’s ass over it.

  77. It should be: “man, how hot is Madonna?” Straight guy will realize it is sarcasm and say “no way”, gay guy will try to pass and say “way hot!”.

  78. I think that it is perfectly fair to not want to kiss a girl after you have come in her mouth PURELY ON THE GROSS-OUT FACTOR, as long as you don’t insist (and make clear that you don’t insist) on coming in her mouth. A lot of girls don’t like having come in their mouths, and there is nothing “gay” about that. If the girl is happy with come in her mouth, that’s great – and you can reciprocate by being happy with her come in your mouth.

  79. I don’t know about ski lifts, but I have noticed the same thing on the subway. Guys who are obviously friends, going somewhere together – but they make sure they have not one but TWO seats between them on the subway – even if it’s crowded.
    If they’re alone, they sit with their knees far enough apart to take up 3 seats and make sure No One sits next to them.
    What’s up with that? (besides being rude)

  80. MK’s boyfriend must be worried about her thinking he’s gay. I say he try it once just to please her. What’s the harm in that? Let her know that this is a one time thing and thats that.

  82. Dan, I think you and the sloggers miss the point on come in the mouth and taking ski lifts togethor.

    At least with come, it’s a matter of individual preference (and huge spectrum of preference), and it’s unfair to judge.

  83. Token straight old dude is perfectly right. I would feel mortified if someone refused to kiss me after I had tenderly, sluttishly, eagerly sucked him off. It is just plain old ungrateful and unmannerly – like spitting out a foodstuff you do not like when you’ve been invited out to dinner, something that I was taught not to do when I was two.

    I have gamely swallowed one or teaspoons of jizz that were less than lovely and you notice that B&J’s does not yet do a ‘spunky monkey’ flavoured ice-cream; probably for a good reason. But: it will make me gay?! GIVE ME A BREAK! If you are so babyish that you are scared of a tiny bit of come, then you are certainly too young to be playing with the grown-ups in bed.

  84. Jeez, about the boy who didn’t want to kiss his girlfriend after she blew him — Christ,I’ve tasted my own cum *thousands* of times, and if cum made me gay — well, I’d be a lot different than I am now!

    Why? Well, after I cum inside a woman, I always offer to go down on her and help her cum. I haven’t had too many demurrals, and the ladies have mostly seemed very happy. It always seemed to me to be the least I could do, having gotten my own rocks off!

    (And about the “thousands” — I’m in my mid-fifties, and I was eating pussy the very next time after I lost my virginity, loved it instantly, and I haven’t given up yet! After all, I know my cock is gonna give up the ghost way before my tongue will.)

  85. If this is a duplicate post, I apologize, but my first response didn’t come up . .

    About the guy who wouldn’t kiss his girl after he came in her mouth — Christ, I’ve tasted my own come *thousands* of times, and if that makes me gay, my wife and all my previous girlfriends will be *really* surprised.

    So how did I do this, you ask? Well, every time after I came inside a girl, I always offered to go down on her and help her come. I met with very few refusals, and the ladies who said yes always seemed happy. It seemed the least I could do, after I had gotten my own rocks off!

    (And about the “thousands” — I started eating pussy the second time I fucked, loved it, and have done it ever since. I’m in my mid-fifties now, so that’s more than three decades of experience. Also, I know that my cock is going to give up the ghost, Viagra or no, before my tongue does.)

  87. LC, reader’s note says explicitly “his come in my mouth” – as in the full load. I’d guess a high percentage of guys have tried their own brand at one time or another on their own (I know I did back in my crazy youth). Wasn’t for me.

    As Dan said, most SGs don’t like spooge (even their own) for the same reason they don’t like dick. It just doesn’t do it for us.

    I have no problem with after BJ kissing but I don’t want my load back. It was a thank-you gift, you get keep it.

  88. A lot of people seem to think that a guy who doesn’t want to taste his cum must be afraid it makes him gay. No. Just no. I don’t want to taste my cum because it’s disgusting, I couldn’t care less about it seeming gay or whatever, I just don’t want to, that doesn’t make me homophobic, or a bad BF. Can’t a guy not want to taste his own semen anymore?

  89. Um, I’m not a fan of the taste of my semen, but tastes vary.

    I don’t want lima beans anywhere near my mouth either, but I see people enjoying them all the time.

  90. What if someone asked “Are you a friend of Dorothy?” and you said yes, and then he pushed you aside and said, “Sorry Mary, I’m trolling for trade tonight?” Then wouldn’t you feel bad? I read a Victorian porn novel years back and one of their code phrases was “Do you like a bit of brown?”

    Sorry but it’s gay history and if you want to live like that, build a time machine.I’ve never had a good experience meeting someone whose first point of business in our conversation was trying to size up if I was gay or not.

  92. I don’t much care for tasting cum after a bj. I am quite amazed at how much women I have been with seem to love their own taste and have never expressed any problem with kissing me after going down on them. If a woman doesn’t like it, I would hope she would tell me. They never do.

    If a gf wanted me to kiss her so bad, or snowball or whatever, then I might try it once or twice to be ggg. But really now, what woman out there is so interested in that, as some kind of kink or fetish or big turn on. The truth is, most women would probably want to do it just because “if he wants to come in my mouth or kiss me after going down on me, then he better…”

    It is almost out of spite or some sense of being treated unfairly. Bottom line is, if a person wants to, they should do it, and if they don’t they shouldn’t. What is the big deal. Did this woman ever say it was some huge turn on that she felt deprived of?

    As for guys on the ski lift or anywhere else, it is not homophobia. It is male use of space. Some women get upset about it and call it male priviledge, but it is just the way males are not afraid to take up space and like to. Women can do it too if they want.

  94. @ Hairhead: … awesome.

    If a guy won’t kiss me after I go down on him, that was the last blowjob he’ll ever get from me. I’m not into snowballing, but it is seriously offensive if somebody expects you to go brush your teeth before they’ll show you any appreciation.

    On the subject of MACHO’s letter, I had the same initial reaction as some people (that he should just come out of the closet) but really, it is not his responsibility to put himself in danger.

  96. PACK THE CHAIR, BUT NOT WHEN THERE’S NO LINE!

    First of all, if there’s a lift line, then you pack ’em in, no empty chairs. But there’s is something to the personal space issue, too. For example, what bugs me is the guy in the singles’ line or the other twosome that want to ride up with me and my wife when there is no or only a minimal lift line. The efficiency isn’t increased, and the chance to ride up with a little bit of privacy and romance once in a while is lost.

    JUST MORE TASTY?

    As for the post-BJ kiss issue, I am 100% with Dan on this one. The thought of the girl wanting me to taste it (as an old GF used to do) always turns my crank DURING the BJ, but after the orgasm….boy, I am just not that interested. I don’t mind kissing post swallow or spit, even if you can tell there’s some residue, but I am not cranked by it and would just as soon pass on the extra flavor.

    I can’t explain why guys in general don’t dig the post-BJ spunk breath while ladies in general seem to mind the post-get-down glaze, but I am sure it has a lot to do with the switch getting thrown, as Dan explains, the more pliable sexuality of the female of the species, and it just may have something to do with vaginal juices being a lot more tasty than jizz….

  97. The simple solution for Missing Kisses is to put some mouthwash in a cup and stick it next to your bed – then your kisses will only be delayed by a few seconds.

  99. Thing is, MK’s problem seemed to be that her boyfriend wouldn’t even *try* to kiss her after she’d been down on him – not that he wouldn’t do it, period. Whether what she wants to do with him is snowballing or just making out after a BJ, if it means that much to her shouldn’t he at least give it a shot?

    …no pun intended.

  100. The gay porn star name is the best solution, for sure. It constantly updates itself and only someone in the know would be current enough to know. Any other solution is either going to become way too widespread to be secret or get quickly out of date, or not have wide enough coverage.

    This assumes though that all gay guys watch gay porn a lot and are current with the “actors”. Do they? Are they?

  101. RE: Expat’s comments…Sasha’s the columnist for Eye Weekly in Toronto, for those curious to know who was being referred to, though I’m not necessarily a fan of hers…when she shoots someone down in print, she sounds bitter rather than straightforward.

  102. Hey Hairhead: You are the king of all the straightmen on Slog!

    Re: Semen Swallowing
    I get that some men just plain don’t like the taste of semen. I’m happy to swallow it. It usually doesn’t taste bad. The spunk from a boyfriend who drank Yohoo (the chocolate soda) daily tasted sweet. It’s also tasted like soup stock. I wouldn’t dress my salad with it but I don’t gag on it either. (I’m also happy to partake of the cooter, second hand juice and all, but that’s another column.)

    I do wonder what the straight men who are disgusted by semen think of their partners who swallow it. Cocksucker isn’t an insult for nothing. Scratch homophobia and you find misogyny.

    RE: MACHO
    While I wouldn’t want MACHO to miss out on any opportunities, the possibility of his getting bashed is likely enough (sadly) to take precedence over coming up w/ a pick-up code. Further, guys who vibe gay in a macho, ostensibly straight environment would seem like the most risky to engage (You know, similar to secretly gay politicians who promote anti-gay legislation).

  103. For the shibboleth; must have something to do with Liza Minelli. As in “my sister asked me the other day if Liza Minelli was still married… I’m not sure I even know who Liza Minelli is. Do you?” A little long, needs work, but the response would be difinitive.

  104. el caminos are pretty macho. how ’bout “do you drive an el camino?” or something remiscent of david sedaris: “do you own a stadium pal?”

  105. Question to MACHO- Why the cloak and dagger stuff? JUST SAY HELLO, nitwit. if the guy is gay, and interested, you’ll receive the kind of feedback you are looking for (flirtyness, buying you a drink, giving an hj in the bathroom etc.) if he’s straight and friendly, you make a straight friend. if he’s gay and not interested or straight and not friendly, you’ll part ways, no harm no foul. start up a conversation and see where it goes, no codeword needed. a codeword is no guarantee of anything.

  106. Are you a friend of Dorothy? wins hands down. Of course, if you’re under a certain age, that may not mean anything, whether or not you actually are a friend 😉

  108. Sounds like snowballing to me. Her exact words are, “He will not kiss me if I have his come in my mouth.”

    …Sounds like snowballing.

    But that’s an interesting take, LC, but it might be as simple as she gets off on swallowing, so he lets her do as she pleases.

  109. GayQuest

    Q. Would you do Samantha Ronson?
    A. Yeah, I’d hit that ass!
    =Gay Male or Female

    Q. Would you do Samantha Ronson?
    A. Maybe. Will Lindsay be there too?
    =Bi-Curious Male

    Q. Would you do Samantha Ronson?
    A. Who?

    =Straight

  110. Speaking as a straight woman who loves giving blow jobs, I don’t enjoy the taste at all, but the submissive elements of it are all the rage. In that regard, I don’t mind if he doesn’t want to taste himself… the blowjob is laced with submissive undertones, and the jizz can be sorta gross-tasting.

    I think it’s a little disgenerous to say that a model should come with oral, and yet if he won’t kiss you after he swallows, that’s the last bj he gets. Seems like punishing him in a big way for the small crime of not liking something. And if you’re giving blowjobs despite your ick factor (how can he not kiss me after I swallow?!) maybe you need to renegotiate the terms.

  111. from a straight guy.

    “are you a gymnast?”

    “ever been to greece?”

    “you have pretty eyes. wanna fuck?”

    that last one is to be used only in a perfect world, where a straight guy would simply answer “no thanks.”

  112. Marty, there is nothing dishonest about saying that if I am too disgusting to kiss after I blow you, then I am not blowing you again.

    I would also not do repeat performances if the chap demanded a towel to wipe his mouth after he went down on me or just plain refused to do it. I would explain my position and move on.

    “You are good enough to be a receptacle for my disgusting come, but I should not have to be intimate with it in any way.” How is that not offensive?

    As I said before, I have once or twice encountered some pretty funky spunk but I had the GOOD MANNERS and courtesy, not get up from the proceedings, spitting and wiping my mouth with the bedding, screaming “Eeeew, disgusting, yeugh, cough, gag. Are you a man or some sort of fermented offal factory?!”

    Too, I have eaten things at people’s houses that I found pretty revolting. (Usually they were from the brassica family.) A friend is an ambassador and has had to graciously consume eyeballs, live crustacean and rotting fish. It is called being a grown-up and living in a world in which the feelings of other people are respected, not just your own.

  113. “If you can’t tell whether he wants to fuck you, he doesn’t want to fuck you. There is no secret code called for. And really there is something totally creepy about trying to start one.”

    Exactly! I’ve had guys asking those kinds of leading questions to figure out if I’m gay. And I always resented the underlying assumption: that if I’m gay, I must be willing to have sex with anyone who is interested (or at least be willing to out myself to a total swisher and complete stranger in a homophobic environment to satisfy his curiosity). As if.

    So unless the guy was superhot (they never are), any shibboleth would be a dealbreaker. You need to find out if he’s interested in you, not if he’s gay or straight. If he’s interested in you, just make freaking small talk and you both should be able to figure out what’s going on by the eye contact, smiles and body language. At least until you can get to a gay safe or neutral environment to be more frank.

  114. Oh yeah, I forgot to add there is already a dicksucking shibboleth for straight/bicurious guys, so just start using that one. It goes, “I’m so horny I could fuck a pig”. If your self-esteem can handle it, go for it.

  115. @Gutterlush

    Nope, the Sam Ronson question wouldn’t work for me, since I don’t like the andro type. A bit more girlie for me, thanks.

    As for the lesbian/gay question, I don’t know how I’d address someone directly. I’ve *said* about people, “Are they part of the family/sisterhood?”.

    I think it’s harder for men. I don’t care what sexuality a woman is; if I get the right signals from a cute one, I’ll signal right back.

  117. I’d hope that MACHO’s intent wasn’t to find a come-on, but a way to find solidarity in a hostile environment. And I don’t think the ideal here is quiz questions about gay icons, but an innocuous question that can be answered honestly on the surface level. Like Fred34’s example: “So, how ’bout them [local sports team].”

  123. in response to, “men are cute hot object”: the qustion asked was if there was a code word to find out if someone is gay. the only one that i know is to ask the person if they know dorthy. apparently ever gay guy ike judy garland. if they respond w/ dorthy who, you have your answer.

  125. MK never said he was a girl. It reads as MK is a guy. Still, his BF should at least ‘try it’ or if he won’t, then MK will just have to determine if it’s a deal-killer or not.

  126. The secret gay code: Give the jazz hands-shake. If they’re gay they’ll know, if they’re straight, they’ll just think you’re having a seizure.

  127. If MK boyfriend has never tipped his own lip in the privacy of his own experimentations… he’s either the only guy on the planet that hasn’t thought of it yet… or just plain brain dead.

    Americana… post Kinsey demands that men think about what there “spunk” tastes like…

    …as exampled by the perpetuation of crass double standards by jerks that insist the vaginal cavity that smells like tuna should honor the sword of stupidity just because it is placed before the breath of demure sweetness.

  129. @Smith in Warsaw:
    Those only work if you get in a time machine and go back to the 70s or earlier (there’s a slight chance someone under the age of 40 will know “Friend of Dorothy” if they’ve had a classical gay education, but even then, it’s iffy). It’s the 21st century, look at their facebook or myspace page for what’s there and what isn’t.

  131. I’m straight and I suspect that some guys hit on me with homo-faux-bia. You know- “What are you looking at, fag!” and then they try to read your reaction to somehow see if they should follow up.

  133. When I lived in Texas, the question was “Are you family?”

    This was back when the song, ‘We are Family’ was big in gay dance clubs. It was also rarely safe to say in public that someone was gay… so if someone were to ask,
    ‘How do you know Bob?’ you’d reply, ‘ Bob is family’.
    And then you’d know to continue the conversation details in private.

    Was that true anywhere else? or was that just a Texas thing?

  134. Just so you know, sitting two to a chairlift almost always means you /have/ to sit far apart for two reasons. First, the chair should be somewhat balanced; the guys in charge of the lift usually try and spread out the weight. Second, you don’t know if the guy is going to fall as soon as he gets off the lift. If you’re close to him, he’ll take you down or tie you up. Sitting far away not only means you have more time to have fun on the hill, but gives you someone to point and laugh at from a distance.

    Cheers dude!

  135. I think the best way to tell if another guy is gay is to ask him, ‘where do you like to hang out?’
    He might name a straight bar if he’s being cautious. But you can respond with “do you know ‘X-gay-bar’?”

    Finding the perfect bar to name might depend on your city and the circumstances:
    If you’re seriously worried about getting gay-bashed, you could name a nightspot that is mostly (but not entirely) gay. Or you could name a pretty obscure gay bar.

    Most homophobic straight guys aren’t going to know the name of the third- or fourth-tier gay bar in your town. The straight guys who do are likely to be supportive.

    I know plenty of young gay guys don’t go to the gay bars, but they’re still likely to know they exist. I think most other commonalities among gays — Madonna, Judy Garland — are either too obvious or are not universally true anymore.

  137. Are some women really just that bitter about having to give blow jobs?

    I don’t complain when my tongue is sore and my chin is dripping. And I usually reach for something to dry my face off.

    I don’t complain when I’m doing a 69 and my nose is jammed in your pussy, and i can’t breathe. No not at all.

    And yes I always reach for something to dry my face in. Because, I’m considerate and I don’t assume that you want to taste you own essense in my kisses and vice versa.

    Is it uncomfortable at times, perhaps yes. But it’s also a labor of love that I’m proud and happy to do!

  138. you’re at a metal concert: “Are you a fan of Bob Mould?” If answer is yes, followed by “And have you been to one of his ‘Blow-Off’ gigs?”

  140. I’m with LC on this one, though I wouldn’t as much call it a “red flag” as a “disappointing hangup”. Your own cum is obviously not poisonous so show her a little affection already.

  141. A Stonewall reference is probably a good way to go. Even young gay people know about the riots, but straight boys will think of the Civil War general.

  142. I always thought “friend of Dorothy’s” was the gay equivalent to Bill W.
    My boyfriend and I still get a laugh out of using “friend of Kenny” though. Don’t know? Have a fan of Dame Edna explain it to ya.

  144. Anyone else think it’s kind of funny that people are complaining about things they find gross in sex? Sure, to each his own, but sex basically IS gross. It’s part of the fun.

    And in light of that, it does seem strange to me to insist so adamantly and completely that you won’t ever kiss someone after they’ve given you a blow job post swallow or not.

  145. For the question to ask to other potentially gay guys… I once heard the phrase “A friend of Dorothy’s” and was told that it referred to the limp-wristed Scarecrow.

  146. “Are you family?” was still making the rounds at the New York City gay bars, at least the last time I went to one. And I’m a girl.

  147. I was in SF with my wife recently, and spent Super Bowl Sunday in a gay bar on Haight. Although, I love sports, I can’t stand sports bars so the atmosphere was fun, friendly, etc., and perfect for the occasion.

    Whilst my wife was outside enjoying a much needed cig, I got approached and asked very simply, “Do you like boys or girls?” I’m no fool, so after trying to say something clever about liking both boys and girls as people, but preferring just girls for sex, I simply said, “yeah I’m not gay, sorry.”

    He was pleasant enough with my rejection, and even complimented my now returned wife on her choice. Minutes later we discussed how I watched an attaractive lesbian follow her outside and if she had in fact approached her because I saw her eyeballing her.

    I never understood the revulsion factor from being told you are attractive by someone else, even if you are straight and the person is gay. It’s a compliment after all. Aggressive tactics are a different story….

    So, I guess my point is do gays need a secret code or do straights need to lighten up???

  148. If a guy’s not into snowballing, it doesn’t hurt my feelings, but if he won’t even kiss me after I’ve licked and sucked his cock until he cums in my mouth and swallowed his spunk, HE IS A SHITTY LOVER. Same for a guy not wanting to go down after he cums in my pussy. I’ve been with a few guys who would gladly eat pussy before they cum in it, but not after. I don’t ask a guy to lick up and eat a mouthful of his own cum if he’s not into it, but if he can’t figure out how to lick my clitoris and avoid sticking his tongue into his own sticky cum mess he left there, then yeah, HE IS A SHITTY LOVER!

  149. Yeah, I don’t see how you automatically assume “snowballing” for MK’s question, I don’t see anything there that hints at that. It sounds like he’s just weird about kissing with semen/penis breath, which I think a lot of straight guys tend to be. It’s not unusual, just a hang-up guys have. I’d just tell him to get over it.

  151. I’m straight and I suspect that some guys hit on me with homo-faux-bia. You know- “What are you looking at, fag!” and then they try to read your reaction to somehow see if they should follow up.

    Posted by king chav

    Damn, King Chav, I’ve never heard that one. Whether it’s homo-faux-bia or the real thing, it sounds scary. I have heard of really fucked up gay boys who hit on straight boys, so they can beat the shit out of them if they get a homophobic rejection. Rare, but I met a couple who admitted to doing it in their misspent youths.

  153. I’m straight. I think male cum, sweat, etc. is disgusting. There’s no way in hell I would want to taste my own cum or any other guys cum. I would, however, sit 4 to a chair. If this makes me gay phobic, then so be it. However, I am very much into female ejaculate and if a female were capable of spooging into my mouth (I’ve met a few who can) then I’m there for them. Women may not produce seminal fluid, but they do produce sweet vaginal fluid, and I’m always down for a facial. I think its a bit of a pheromone thing. The scent of a woman is much more enjoyable for me than the scent of a man. I think straight women feel this way too (in reverse). Just a thought…

  154. Why the hell should MK’s boyfriend have to swallow? He doesn’t like it at all! If that’s what MK wants, MK needs to find a boyfriend who’s into it.

    I’m a meatatarian. When I invite my Vegan friends over for a meal, I don’t shove a sausage down their throats because I like it. I let them eat what they like in peace…and they do the same favor for me!

    Also, “Are you a friend of Dorothy” is soooo old! Why not “Are you a constituent of Harvey Milk?” instead?

  155. I thought brownbacking was the universal signal that a guy was gay.
    Nothing screams “buttfucker” like a fresh skidmark leaking through.

  156. My boyfriend loves to kiss me after I blow him but I will NOT kiss him after he goes down on me. I just hate the way it tastes! It’s possible that that’s all it is. It doesn’t always have to be a male-gay thing, Dan.

  158. I’m not sure that MK was discussing snowballing; if he won’t kiss her at all after a blowjob, I suggest she tell him that she likes kisses and he likes blowjobs- if she can’t get kisses because she gives him blowjobs then it only makes sense that she should stop giving him blowjobs- problem solved and kisses resumed!

  160. Dan, you won’t be able to publish whatever secret code you come up with for MACHO. Because, you know, straight guys–everywhere–read this column. May I suggest taking out an ad in Redbook instead?

  161. I agree with Dan: I might be willing to try my cum BEFORE I actually come, because I am horny. Once I ejaculate, all that horniness escapes me and I don’t feel so much ready to even get close to it. At this point in my life, I don’t care about the gay thing or not: it just grosses me out. Before = Hmmm!; After = Eeeww! Perhaps MK can try to get him to taste his precum, instead, or just kiss him before he comes.

  163. “I’ve been with a few guys who would gladly eat pussy before they cum in it, but not after…. HE IS A SHITTY LOVER! “

    Maybe it’s the fact that (as Dan mentioned) men loss all interest in sex about 1/2 second after they cum. I don’t think many women quite understand this.
    Sure you can make your man go down on you after he comes, but from his point of view you might as well ask him to go down on a ham sandwich. After he comes both will have about the same erotic appeal.

  164. LC makes good point. I was surprised that women who enjoyed my cunnilingus skills wanted to kiss me afterwards. I love women but still do not understand them. Only once has a woman wanted to kiss me after fellatio, and I was surprised by it. I am open – minded, so went ahead and kissed her, a strange sensation to have that in my own mouth. I recall that I actually enjoyed the fact she was so hot and turned on at the time, so this put a positive spin on the “surprise” factor. On the subject (fellatio) I actually prefer it as foreplay, and like to finish by coming inside her, just a preference of mine. Does that make me a control freak?
    sb

  166. Why would anybody want to snowball? It is like blowing your nose in someone’s mouth. EEK! It is BEYOND disgusting. For the record, I am gay and looooooooove oral.

  167. My husband used to go down on me all the time after he came in me, and gushed (HA!) about “how good” I tasted…until I told him that it was probably mostly him he was tasting. Stupid, stupid stupid!

  168. “Are you family?” is pretty good. Then, for the non-phobic straight folk in the know, they can reply they are “a FRIEND of the family”!

  171. Wow, so much to say, so little time. Where can I possibly start? First….MK, to kiss a man with his load in your mouth he has to have homo-tendencies. Only a bisexual, bicurious, or gay man who accidentally slept with a woman would take his own load from your mouth. If he’s really gay, he’ll take another mans load from your mouth. Second, SBOOO, you’re a moron! You actaully thought you could have a one-on-one relationship with a guy who TOLD YOU he can’t be monogamous? “Polyamorist” Is not only a bulls**t Mormon idea and sacreligious f**kover, it’s a man/womans way of saying “I don’t want to date, I just want to f**k!” (By the way, I’m Agnostic) If you fall for your own idea that you can change him, you deserver to be slapped in the face with a rotten trout. Maybe the one in your pants? Find a man who wants what you want you idiot, you’ll never get what you want unless you get what you want, capeshe? Last and not least, MACHO, you are the ironically contradicting feminist in my eyes. I’ll bet a dollar to your doughnut hole that if a man refered to you as a “Cute Hot Object” you’d go into whore-monal/emotional overdrive and demand the male race be wiped from the face of the earth. Am I offended by you calling men “Cute Hot Objects” Not at all. That would be a waste of my time. But it’s definately worth all my time to tell you what a f**king moron you are. Why the hell do YOU need a question to ask gay men if they are gay in a “secert” way? I’m straight as an arrow, love women till the day I die. In a great relationship, (SBOOO, it’s one-on-one, MK, she swallows then I kiss her lips, no tongue, and Macho…ugh). If you’re a straight woman, why the hell do you need to filter out the homos from the heteros with a stupid f’ing question? Look and you shall see! I can spot a gay man from a mile away, I’ll be his best friend until he hits on me. He gets three chances to understand I’m straight and interested in him plutonically, strictly, until I tell him to fuck off because he wants me cock. Get a life, keep the straight men, talk to the gay men in the appropriate environment about their gayness. You all sound like you need a lesson in open communication with your partner… I can’t pluralize that because I don’t believe in fucking more than one person at a time unless you only care about yourself and don’t care about the person(s) you’re fucking.

  174. Tasting my cum:
    Thanks for your response to missing kisses. For eons I’ve said to my female partners during sex that ” i want to shoot on your tits, face, in your pussy and then clean you up with my mouth. When the words leave my mouth I fully intend to do that, but as soon as my spunk is deposited on those tits, face, on in the pussy, I lose all interest in doing it. In fact, the thought of doing it is downright gross. I know that many of these women have thought that I was renegging on my promise. Why does something that sounds so hot with a boner, become gross without one?

  175. As to machos question as to how to ID someone who plays for his team. I was told years ago by someone who was very out and somewhat flaming that the code question is, or at least was “are you a friend of dorothy’s” as in the wizard of OZ

  180. I loved the response he gave to the monogamist, because as a non-monogamist myself I’ve gotten the short end of the stick in relationship counseling, and there is a bias that “one partner is the only way.” She lied to her partner, and she should be the one to take responsibility. Her husband was the one brave enough to broach the subject in the first place instead of lying and saying he was monogamous, then living in misery or cheating. I was glad to see the smackdown and I wish someone had come to my aid when I was trying to salvage my very-similar relationship troubles.

  182. I’m with LC – I’m expected to have your come in my mouth, but all of a sudden its “gross” when I want to give you a kiss after I’ve just blown you??? – too gross for you but not too gross for me? whatev that’s bullshit

  183. I have a great story for your Macho thread.

    I was working at Microsoft and I commented (via email) that I thought a a particular guy that I knew was a team player to a friend. My buddy sent a reply commenting that he thought this guy wasn’t “on the team”. He realized later that he sent the email further than he thought. Later that day, the particular guy comes up to my buddy and says he’s not on the team but ‘would like to be’. One reason this worked was my buddy was a team player for a particular sport; it wasn’t known that it was a gay team.

    So for MACHO, if he can work sports into the conversation that would be my take.

  184. I mostly agree with those who say MACHO should practice reading eye contact and body language more and worrying about codes less. As for codes, porn actor names may work, but not everybody is such a consumer as to know actors’ names. You might be more likely to get some idea by trying to get his thoughts about Beckham, Michael Phelps, some guy that’s fit and well known at the moment. You can also go the other way and make a leading comment about an attractive woman nearby and hope for a disinterested reaction or telling comment. But if you’re not getting a good read without giving a quiz, there is a usually effective way of identifying if a guy is the type who is homo averse or maybe just not into you without getting hit. It is sorta rude though. Everyone has that imaginary ‘space’ around them that we maintain. If you absentmindedly get slightly too close an uninterested dude will step back, lean or turn away, or make it clear you’re in his space. The stronger the reaction the more you know to leave him alone. If a guy is gay and interested he’s not likely to do those things, instead he’ll likely warm up more. The best advice is to practice subtle flirting and reading signals, honing the gaydar, and forgetting ‘codes’. There are no good ‘secret’ verbal codes in the Internet era. Oh, and in a more private setting there is a much easier way to identify guys who are gay, gay friendly, or at least not homophobic; ask if they wanna watch some porn. 🙂

  188. I tasted my own spunk once and was so revolted that I literally vomited. My gag reflex on the issue is such that I cannot go down on a woman after cumming inside her, and the notion of snowballing is profoundly nauseating to me. Missing Kisses boyfriend may feel the same way and simply is lacking the balls to honestly tell his pushy girlfriend the truth. It isn’t gay panic, it is simple revulsion and gagging that he’s avoiding, or at least that’s my bet.

  189. “What’s your favorite part of ‘The Wizard of Oz’?”

    Straight guys: “When the witch melted,” “Those crazy flying monkeys,” “Man, I haven’t seen that since I was a kid,” etc.

    Gay guys: Judy!

  190. I think the secret code should lie more in the answer to the question than the question itself- the reader suggested “Do you Barbeque?” Perfectly innocent question, and the secret “Why yes, I am gay!” answer could be “Only in the back yard.” That way a straight dude would say, “yeah sure” and look at you weird, but the question itself wouldn’t be code for anything and you wouldn’t get your ass kicked for asking… Just my thoughts.

  191. May have been mentioned already, regarding a “secret code,” but how about something along the line, referring to Kinsey 6 (6 being 100% gay on the Kinsey scale)? Such as, “Don’t you just love that new band, K6?” Straight guys would go, “huh?” Gays would say, “Totally into them.”

  194. “Q: Do you like baseball?
    A: Yeah, I prefer to (pitch/catch)

    Probably not too transparent if you aren’t looking for it.”

    Roses27 has the best one, because it’s the code that, even if all the straight guys know it, they can’t be sure that the person asking it is gay–the person may be asking an honest question. It’s the perfect question because the answer is as integral a part of the code as the question.

    It would also be really easy to work into a conversation naturally.

  195. There is no such thing as polyamorist. There are only slobs which are not skilled enough to maintain a true relationship.

    And as far as truly loving someone goes, it is a hard, tough thing to love a human being.

  196. One of my parents’ friends, a woman, once asked me in a non-threatening way if I am “a confirmed bachelor”. I was too embarrassed to admit that I was, so I answered that I was “an unconfirmed bachelor”. I think she understood.

  197. “Are you a friend of Dan Savage?”

    If a guy reads Dan’s column he probably doesn’t care whether another guy is gay or not, regardless of how macho he or the surroundings are.

  198. RE: MACHO‘s question.

    Why not keep the one that’s been around for over a century? “Are you a friend of Dorothy?”

    It’s been used since before WWII, and if memory serves me, dates back to a socialite in England around Oscar Wilde’s time, though more recently it’s become associated with writer Dorothy Parker and “The Wizard of Oz”. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_D… .

    Signed,

    Friend of Dorothy

  199. Oh, puh-lease. I’m a straight guy who’s gotten hit on every since I was 15. Trying to figure out the gay people? Just look for the dudes who are looking you straight in the eye and don’t look away. Some guys look w/ a tinge of guilt, some guys look w/ unabashed lust, some guys look w/ intense curiosity but THEY LOOK. Geez. Like you all need a stupid code-word when your horny eyes say pretty much everything.

  200. If you were at Whistler and there was a line, there’s no way the lifties would allow half-empty chairs to go up.
    I’ve never seen the liftline homophobia thing, not buying it.

  201. “Snails or oysters” is awesome, but it’s also the gayest thing I’ve ever heard. You might get your ass kicked with that one.

    I’d also like to offer up my vote regarding MK: I’m happy to sleep with either gender, but I happen to think girl juice is yummy, while semen is disgusting. MK’s boyfriend may feel the same.

  203. Isn’t agreeing to abstain from something your partner doesn’t like as much a part of being GGG as being willing to try new things and test your boundaries? If MK’s boyfriend really hates the taste of his own cum, she should agree to brush her teeth after her blowjobs before making out, unless she really has some kind of desperate snowballing fetish, in which case she’s with the wrong guy. My boyfriend hates his own cum too and takes a quick shower after we have intercourse, which doesn’t bother me in the slightest–I’m still fucked and satisfied.

  205. To LC,

    The quote from the letter was as follows, “but he will not kiss me if I have his come in my mouth.”

    Having come “in (her) mouth” is not the same as, “having HAD come in her mouth.” Dan’s advice is on point as usual.

    Though I agree your proposed situation is a red flag, this one doesn’t seem to be given the information available.

  206. How much verification do you need that your partner is non-monogamy friendly? He told her, he tried to include her, and she stuck around through the wedding and for an ENTIRE YEAR afterwards. At what point does it just become badgering to ask if she’s okay with it?

    He may be a bit of an idiot, but come ON. This is why people say non-monogamy doesn’t work: someone isn’t honest and the whole thing falls apart in a spectacular way. 😛

    Also, guys that won’t sit 4 to a chair are either jerks or they’re 15. If you’re someone that does this, grow up so we can all get to the top of the mountain faster. I ride 4 guys to a chairlift in the summer when biking, and we’re all in spandex shirts and have shaved legs.

  208. I can totally relate to MK actually. My boyfriend doesn’t mind kissing me after a blowjob but I HATE tasting myself on his lips after he goes down on me. Maybe her boyfriend just doesn’t like the taste of cum (as many many women don’t). I dont think people are grossed out by cum because they see it as waste product, LC, I think people are grossed out because it tastes, well, gross.

  212. Oh, puh-lease. I’m a straight guy who’s gotten hit on every since I was 15. Trying to figure out the gay people? Just look for the dudes who are looking you straight in the eye and don’t look away. Some guys look w/ a tinge of guilt, some guys look w/ unabashed lust, some guys look w/ intense curiosity but THEY LOOK. Geez. Like you all need a stupid code-word when your horny eyes say pretty much everything.

    Posted by and NO, i’m not even ‘bi-curious’

    What a shame. You sound hot.

  213. Even if MK was talking about snow-balling, I’m not sure I agree with his last statement. He shouldn’t have said that the boyfriend was probably dying to taste himself. That’s like telling a guy, “I’ll bet your girlfriend is dying to *insert sex act that she already said she didn’t want to do here*. Just keep pushing the issue until she finally gives in.” That’s something that Dan would never say to a guy. I know that Dan didn’t actually tell MK to press the issue, but she might anyway because she’ll think he’s just saying no because he’s worried it makes him gay.

  214. As for the question in a masculine environment, I think it’s probably best to be honest:

    “Let me ask you a question: if I were to buy you a drink, would I be barking up the wrong tree?”

    Keep it simple.

  216. Whatever became of the question “Are you a friend of Dorothy’s?” It was in reference to Dorothy from the wizard of oz. If you said yes, then you were in the family. I have no idea as to the origin of the question i just remember hearing about it and it being mentioned in a movie or TV show i once saw.

  217. Are you shitting me? Dan, you must know “Are you a friend of Dorothy’s?” Or is it actually so well known that even the he-men at a Meshuggah gig will catch on and throw this guy a beating?

    I was woulda thought this was open & shut, but if you wanna burn a column on it…

    P.S. That’s too bad you weren’t booked at the U of Calgary around your Lethbridge date. This neanderthal town could use it.

  218. We bears do the “Woof” thing… that way if another guy is a bear, he’ll get it.. if he’s just a hot bearded straight guy, he’ll just think we’re nuts or that we mumbled. Either of which is fine.

  219. 4 guys not wanting to sit next to each other on a chair life may say something about them being homophobic but it definitely says something about them as skiers/riders, namely that they are not. I have skied for 30 years, hetero for all, and to this day I would take a chair, gondola car or whatever with as many dudes as possible if it meant getting some fresh tracks, but that’s just me.

  221. Why not just make the question “Do you read Dan Savage?” If the answer is yes they either get the joke, or are open-minded enough to appreciate the offer — gay or other wise. I’m a straight man, but would like to think gay men would find me attractive. Because if gay men find me attractive, chances are there are a lot of hot women out there who do to!

  222. Yeah, I’ve experienced the “chair lift effect” with friends (well, former friends now) at the movie theater. They would always try and sit with a seat between them. Hilarious!

  224. Obviously, there is no way to come up with a question using this column that only gay men and no straight men will recognize since tons of straight guys read this column

  225. There seems to be an assumption that women like the taste of themselves on others lips while most men don’t, which I take issue with. The reason this assumption seems to have grown is the fact that very few women would have the insensitivity to say, “ew, gross, get away from me with my cum on you!” to a guy who had just spent some unreciprocated time and energy making them cum their brains out! Many men do not seem to have this sensitivity. And then complain that their wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband USED to give them blowjobs. I see no reason to make a man who has just given me pleasure, and hopefully taken some pleasure in it himself, feel that he is gross and has done something dirty, demeaning. That’s the last message I want to send to my lover, so I don’t mind in the least kissing him after oral even though I get absolutely no thrill from my own flavor. It’s respecttul and intimate.

  226. Just ask the guy if he’d like to go to dinner sometime. If he bursts a blood vessel you can say, “What’s wrong? Don’t people around here eat dinner? Jesus fucking Christ, don’t be so fucking dramatic. People will think you’re gay and you obviously couldn’t handle living with THAT stigma… you asshole.”

    Simple.

  227. Semen is an acquired taste, like oysters, alcohol, or anal sex. Until new neural pathways linking these activities to the pleasure center of the brain are formed, it’s unlikely to happen. Repetition and some form of positive reinforcement helps. Perhaps she should bait/reward him with rimming….

    Hey MACHO… do you prefer twinkies or bears? Don’t like Hostess cakes, huh? Too bad.

  228. Support for “family”.

    I’ve always liked the usage of “are you family?”. It’s enigmatic enough, protective, community-minded, etc. I recall that being used a lot in the 90s, when bumper stickers of rainbows or that said “family” were still private winks that the majority of straight folks weren’t privy to. Rainbow flags are universal now, but “family” is still comparatively preserved and closeted, which seems appropriate for the situation here, whatever rip-roaring macho bull fighting/Nascar/cage match/information technology symposiums this guy is going to.

  229. Re: 26 Feb 09 letter from M.A.C.H.O.

    This writer postulates while at a heavy metal show, that 98% of the guys there are straight, therefore he wouldn’t have a chance to “hook-up” with any of them. Furthermore, you present to the readers the challenge of finding that magical phrase that will uncover if a guy is gay.

    In your response to this reader, you have have done a disservice to us by missing the greater picture. By positing (A) that there might be (in) one unified question, or knowledge that is universal to all fags, and (B) that any magic question alone, like Dorothy clicking her heels, could transform us to Oz of a cute guy’s bedroom, and (C) that there is only a gay, or straight, solution to a problem such as MACHO’s, and (D) there is knowledge exclusive to “gays”, or not know to “straights”; then you have done your readers a disservice, and shows myopic reasoning on your part.

    The Central flaw in your faulty reply stems from a very simple premise: that there exists either straight men, or the 10% that is homosexual. By believing this nonsense, you will, in fact, miss 98% of the opportunities that life throws our way.
    The fact is this: 20% of guys are gay, 20% of guys are straight, the other 60%, the rest of us, are bisexual. I am bisexual: a 5 on the Kinsey Scale.
    I find interesting things happen when I bring-up this topic in conversation where gays, straights, and those inbetween meet. I find that both true-gays, and true-straights refuse to accept the scale, and that there even is one. It seems the prevailing logic is that “if you’ve sucked a cock, you must be gay.”
    Therefore, my obvious “universal question” is: do you think a guy can be bi?
    However, I’ve said repeatedly that I’ve had sex with more married guys than both gay men and females combined. We know that guys can be, and are bi.
    My experience has taught me that straight guys are eighter single, or divorced, usually multiple times. One of the question I use to find a guys is: are you married, and for how long?

    By thinking that there might be a “universal question” really misses the point. If we look at the A.A. model, we find that all A.A.’ers are taught that they are identical, and that the program works because you do not suffer from “terminal uniqueness.”
    Gays might follow the stereotypic creed of: Musicals, fashion, Liza, or what have you, but we bisexuals don’t, generally. But were we to have that secret knowledge, like the marriage-thing, earlier mentioned, the fact still remains that there is neither a definitive question, or should there be.
    By advocating that there might be, or there should be, or to wish that there cold be, Dorothy, you will miss those opportunities, because a solid “no”, or “yes” rarely makes-or-breaks the meeting. Point of fact, you are looking to start a conversation, and as such, you would ask open-ended questions, designed to further the topic.
    Ok, this is Hook-Up 101. I understand, but this moves us to the next issue.

    Perhaps we shouldn’t consider one magic question, but rather a golden equation.

  230. A gay friend of mine in college (odd thing: identical twins, one was gay and the other straight) mentioned how asking “Do you know Dorothy?” used to be the question (alluding to Judy Garland, musicals, and being “over the rainbow”), but that fell out of favor among less-effete gays, so the butchier question had become “Hey man, d’you know Stonewall?” Even naive gays will probably at least have heard of the Stonewall riots, whereas narrow straights will think you’re referring to the Civil War general or just some guy’s nickname, and non-narrow straights who get the reference can say, “Not personally, he’s not my scene, but I’ve got friends who know him.”

  232. Now I’m grey and Gay, but back in the day to determine if someone else was homo THE standard innocuous question was, “Are you a friend of Dorothy?”. Why? Because if the answer was, “Dorothy who?”, then keep on movin’ cause he’s not Gay. Why? Because if he were Gay, he’d follow up with a related question, such as, “Why, YES! And don’t you just love the gorgeous gown Adrian designed for Glenda the Good Witch in her opening scene?” All ‘mos love the Wizard of Oz. It’s a metaphore for our own stormy path to a technicolor future full of Gay farm hands acting out like lovable rubes in a dream sequence. And costumes by Adrian to boot! So if “Mister Right (now)” wasn’t clued in then, well, he would deserve the answer he asked for, “Dorothy GALE, of course! From KANSAS.” If then he “Got it.” a flirty conversation might just develop and off you’d go together anyway. Don’t you know… We recruit.

  234. To the women who responded to MK with an I-kiss-him-afterwards-he-should-too attitude: As a bi woman who has tasted several different men’s cum, and several different women’s juices, in my experience women’s fluids taste much better than men’s. We’re talking hands down, no contest; all of the women tasted considerably better than all of the men. I agree with mintygreen and spunktasteslikejunk that it’s very possible that a man might just be grossed out by the taste of his cum, without there being any “gay panic” or misogynism involved. If you kiss a partner whose mouth tastes disgusting to you, how much intimacy does that create?

    As far as MK’s original letter, I agree that the bf’s not being willing to even try might be a red flag, but it could also be that he has tasted it on a previous lover’s mouth, and already knows he can’t stomach it. Or he may just be a homophobic, misogynist asshole. If it’s the former, then take the advice given so far up the page I’ve given up crediting it, and keep mouthwash by the bed, if it’s the latter then DTMFA.

  236. I’d normally be happy to go up four-to-a-lift with three of my best guy friends, but on the few occasions this opportunity has arose we’ve declined for safety reasons.

    See, with four in the lift at least one of us would get it in our fool heads to “rock” and thereby freak out the other three. We’re not homophobic, in that case, just jerks! (For the record, I admit that I would be the first-or-second most likely to start rocking.)

  238. I do not disagree to your response to MK in terms of content. However, I feel that it is important to point out that not all women can have multiple orgasms, as you seem to be suggesting. In fact, some research (which granted, given the self-report nature of the work, may be exaggerated in either directed) shows that only 43% of women can have multiple orgasms when masturbating. Additionally, given that women have orgasms less reliably via intercourse than masturbation, it is likely that number actually drops when including a partner in the equation. Even if it doesn’t, that’s still over half that don’t fit the multiple orgasm stereotype and get just 1, just like men!

  239. I’m late, and I haven’t read all the comments above, but I would still like to put this on the record : ladies – any man who refuses to take his cum back into his mouth from yours means you no good.

    Signed,

    A Ragingly Heterosexual Male

  241. not sure if this is just a bay area gaysian thing, or a high school thing, or universal.. but a lot of my gay friends use to ask people .. “are you downe?” maybe this works better in print. but it’s kind of a code word. see downelink.com

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