My boyfriend and I have been
together eight months. We love each other, and I see us spending our
lives together. At least I did, until something he said a few days
ago.
Long story short, for the last five months
he’s brought up marriage. Then a few days ago he informed me that he
doesn’t want a wedding. When I offered a small ceremony for immediate
family and friends, he balked and said he’s not even interested in a
courthouse wedding. I asked if everything he’d said before was empty
talk, and he said yes. He won’t give me any better explanation. Oh, and
this was two days after we decided I’d be moving in with him, and he
still wants me to live with him even after dropping this bomb! Everyone
I’ve talked to, including my therapist, said the equivalent of
WTF?!?
Dan, can you decipher this male-ese for
me?
Lady In A Relationship
You were discussing marriage at three
months?
The fact that he would bring up marriage so
early, and the fact that you didn’t laugh in his face, disqualifies you
both from obtaining a marriage license. (Okay, it doesn’t—but it
should.) Three months—eight months, sixteen months—is way too soon to be discussing marriage. Sure, you can
allow yourself to be swept away by new love, you can crush out on each
other, you can sheepishly admit that you’ve allowed yourself to
daydream about marriage—so long as that admission is immediately
followed by this statement: “But I realize it’s way too soon to
even think about it seriously…” But you absolutely, positively should
NOT be making plans to marry, small ceremonies or large,
courthouse or St. Paul’s Cathedral, at eight fucking
months; nor should you attempt to hold him—or anyone
else—to a premature “commitment” to wed.
Your boyfriend doesn’t have a bad case of
“male-ese,” LIAR, he has a good case of came-to-his-senses-ese. If
you’re lucky, the strain is contagious, perhaps sexually transmitted,
and you’ll soon be showing symptoms yourself.
And a bit of bonus advice: Get a therapist
who doesn’t believe that cashing your checks obligates him to tell you
whatever idiot thing you want to hear.
In a recent column you wrote,
“If you’re not having sex with your boyfriend, or anyone else, and
there’s no sex in your foreseeable future, ANB, that’s not
monogamy—that’s celibacy.” I have been with my girlfriend for
nine years, living together for seven. We have never had sex. At the
beginning we fooled around a lot, but never went far. Now, like many
couples who have been together for a while, the frequency has
decreased. We go beyond kissing a few times a year, and never all that
far. I am mostly okay with this: I take care of myself as necessary. We
never talk about sex at all. We’ve moved back and forth across the
country together and are otherwise committed. Is it ridiculous to leave
sex out of the relationship?
Sexless And Seemingly Content
If you’re happy and your girlfriend’s happy,
SASC, then I’m happy. Two people in a bad relationship can have plenty
of great sex; two people in a great relationship can have little sex or
no sex. Sex is a metric for assessing the health of a
relationship, but it’s not the only one. When two people come together
who love each other and are compatible sexually—which can mean a
shared interest in sex or a shared disinterest in sex—the angels
sing, SASC. All that matters, again, is that you’re both happy.
But are you happy, SASC? You say that you
are, and I’ll take your word for it, but there’s a lot of wiggle room
in the “mostly” in this sentence: “I am mostly okay with this.”
You owe it to yourself to determine if you are really and truly okay
with living without sex—and if the girlfriend is too.
I’ll add this to the debate over the threat that gay people pose to marriage: A fag saved my
“opposite marriage.”
My wife and I had a huge argument about sex
after she rebuffed me one night. She was shouting that she couldn’t
stand the idea of me inside her because she felt like I was just
masturbating in her. I shouted that we could stop having vaginal
intercourse altogether for all I care because it was boring me, too,
and besides, there was lots of other stuff we could do. She screamed,
“Like what?!?” And I screamed, “Like oral! Masturbation! Role-playing!
Whatever kinky shit you want!” There was a pause, and we both started
laughing.
We took vaginal intercourse “off the menu”
that night. After three weeks of amazing, mind-blowing sex, she called
me at work and asked if I missed vaginal intercourse. I told her that I
did but that putting it back on the menu was entirely her call. She got
in the car and drove to my office, and we fucked in the stairwell.
Sometimes you help people you don’t even realize you’ve helped.
Married O And Newly Surging
You’re welcome, MOANS, and thanks for
sharing.
And speaking of marriage: Last week’s
decision by the California Supreme Court upholding Proposition 8 was
expected but, in the wake of so many recent victories, still saddening,
and I’m getting mail from lots of unhappy people. I’m unhappy about it,
too. But we have to remember that this is a long game, folks, and
despite this setback, we are winning. We’ve heard a lot about
Prop 8 over the last week, and we’re going to hear a lot about the
fight to overturn it over the coming months, but let’s not forget about
Proposition 22.
In 2000, California voters approved a law
banning same-sex marriage. It was a ballot initiative, like Prop 8, but
just a law, not a constitutional amendment. And it was that law, Prop
22, that the California Supremes struck down in 2008, in their historic
ruling legalizing same-sex marriage. And voters in 2000 approved Prop
22 by a 22-point margin. Eight years later, the same voters
approved Prop 8 by just four points. That’s an 18-point shift in
favor of marriage equality in just eight years. That’s extraordinary
progress. A loss is still a loss, and a loss sucks, but the trend is so
strongly in our favor that we cannot lose hope. The anti-gay bigots
know that they’re losing this debate, and it’s why they’re so hot to
amend state constitutions now, while they still can, while they
can still count on the votes of the old, the bigoted, and the easily
manipulated.
But they are losing and they know
it.
Gay marriage will be back to the ballot box
in California in 2010 or 2012, and voters are going to repeal Prop 8.
Fundamental civil rights should not be subject to a popular vote, of
course, and the California Supremes had an opportunity to reaffirm that
ideal. They chose not to, they buckled, and so gays and lesbians,
unlike other minority groups, face the challenge of securing our rights
at the ballot box. That seems like a daunting prospect until you recall
Prop 22 and compare its margin of victory to that of Prop 8. Again, we
witnessed an 18-point shift in favor of gay marriage in California in
just eight years. We can gain another two points in two. We just have
to stay in the fight and constantly remind ourselves and each
other—and Maggie Gallagher—that we are winning.
Am I the only one who feels “disinterest” as it’s webster meaning is perfectly appropriate and more powerful an expression than “not interested” or disdain.
I mean, the guy showing lack of priority of sex in his life and having it take a second seat to stability. Disinterest seems perfectly appropriate.
And traveling across the country in a sexless, passionless yet stable relationship? Why does hipster and the band Matt and Kim come to mind?
Dan, I love your column. However, I think you were a bit rough on LIAR. I actually agree with pretty much everything you said about 3 or 8 months being too soon to seriously talk about marriage. BUT, I don’t think that LIAR’s boyfriend’s sudden change-of-heart qualifies as “came-to-his-senses-ese” so muchs it qualifies as emotional manipulation and assholery, ESPECIALLY since, according to LIAR, HE was the one who was bringing it up to begin with. It’s cool that he changed his mind, but I think he had an obligation to explain this to her, rather than just making her look like a fool by balking at her.
As far as LIAR’s therapist goes, I think you, Dan, are making an unfair assumption about his or her willingness to be honest with LIAR. The therapist may or may not have indicated to LIAR whether or not it was too early to consider marriage – her letter didn’t say. However, the therapist was probably referring to the boyfriend’s weird flip-flopping sans communication.
I don’t entirely agree with your advice for LIAR. While I agree that 8 months is WAY too soon to be discussing the possibility of marrying EACH OTHER, I do not think it is too early to discuss the concept of marriage. If getting married (to anyone, at some point in the future) is important to someone and they are with someone who does not believe in marriage, that is a recipe for disaster. If they stay together, it is only going to result in either a more difficult & painful breakup later on, or result in somebody compromising on their values and being unhappy and resentful. While there are many things in a relationship that require compromise, I believe this is one of those areas that doesn’t apply, and can be a real deal breaker.
He obviously does not want to get married. If they stay together long enough, one of two things will happen. She will eventually pressure him into getting married, which he will never be happy with and always resent her for, or he will stick to his guns and never marry her, in which case SHE will never be happy and will always resent him for.
Dan, People do seem to get engaged and married quickly these days – it is pretty disposable (Marriage is sacred, my ass). I, however, think you are missing something in LIAR’s story. Her bf is lying and manipulating. And she is so unhappy she has asked for advice from several people who all give her “WTF?” and yet she is staying. I suspect she did not make the long story short for her therapist. She needs to ask herself if this is behaviour she is ok with, so far it looks like she is shopping around for someone to tell her what she wants to hear. Which I suspect is “move in and he will change his mind”.
@bukboy I’m a heterosexual atheist and I honestly don’t get what the big deal about marriage is whether gay or straight. Since, however, the government has long had its paws in the marriage business it is no longer a religious matter. And everyone should be entitled to it equally.
Hey since I have no interest in my right to get married, can I gift it to one of my gay friends?
@46
people DO write letters to Dan Savage asking if their situations are really okay. They phone in on the podcast too. Sometimes it’s more a matter of permission-giving than anything else. They may feel conflicted because of ideas that are popular in mass media, or things they grew up believing….
A lot of good sex advice (and sex therapy) is a matter of giving permission to go ahead and enjoy; that what is happening (or, in this case, not happening) is OKAY.
Whether or not SASC is happy in his relationship is another matter entirely, but Dan addressed the ambiguity (“mostly okay with it”)…
I have to disagree with your advice to LIAR.
my spouse of 10 years and I are still happily in love and we knew at three months and got married in vegas two months after that. Bottom line when you know you know time together doesn’t mean squat.
Does anyone know where I might be able to find information about just how much money is spent in a given year on either side of the gay rights battle? I would be very appreciative.
About prop 8, it is important to understand that in CA, gay couples can get civil unions that have all the same state legal rights and privileges as marriages. They are not being denied the ability to make medical decisions for their partners or receive survivor benefits or any of that. It is just a different label, marriage vs. civil union. That’s why the CA Supreme Court did not find that anyone’s fundamental civil rights were being violated. All the “rights” are the same as far as the state is concerned. The only difference is the label. The Supreme Court also did not invalidate the gay marriages that took place before Prop 8.
Dan, you usually give great advice but you’re kinda high when you say 16 months is too soon for marriage. The 2 most successful married couples I know got hitched at 9 months and 4 months, respectively. Both been married over a decade. Compare that to a couple I know that dated for 8 years and got divorced the first year after. Justs like you told the person in the second letter, length of time together is a metric, but it’s not THE metric, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
Totally agree with Muffy. It is natural to talk about what you are looking for in life throughout all phases of a relationship. Do you think marriage is important? Do you want kids ever? Do you want kids in the next five years? These are important things to talk about at the beginning of a relationship so that you are not continuing on false assumptions. Of course, our dreams for our lives change as we change – and it is your responsibility to your partner to keep them up to date! I would be curious to know what changed his mind? He was so serious, then did a 180? Either something very dramatic happened (in which case they are probably no longer compatible), or he was putting on an act at some point (in which case he can’t be trusted to be honest). Sounds like a deal-breaker to me.
on policing grammar:
dis·inter·est·ed·ly (Adverb), dis·inter·est·ed·ness (Noun)
Usage Note:
In traditional usage, disinterested can only mean “having no stake in an outcome,” as in Since the judge stands to profit from the sale of the company, she cannot be considered a disinterested party in the dispute. But despite critical disapproval, disinterested has come to be widely used by many educated writers to mean “uninterested” or “having lost interest,” as in Since she discovered skiing, she is disinterested in her schoolwork. Oddly enough, “not interested” is the oldest sense of the word, going back to the 17th century. This sense became outmoded in the 18th century but underwent a revival in the first quarter of the early 20th.
Despite its resuscitation, this usage is widely considered an error. In a 1988 survey, 89 percent of the Usage Panel rejected the sentence His unwillingness to give five minutes of his time proves that he is disinterested in finding a solution to the problem. This is not a significantly different proportion from the 93 percent who disapproved of the same usage in 1980.
SASC is so fucking deep in denial, it’s heartbreaking. He uses tons of justifications (” like many couples who have been together for a while”) as well as language implying that it would be better if there was more (“never all that far” “I am mostly okay with this”). He takes care of himself as needed, because his “otherwise committed” girlfriend doesn’t. It’s like a silent scream.
I am a professional copyeditor and C in VA has no idea what he/she is talking about.
I’m frankly uninterested in the language controversy here.
SASC is so fucking deep in denial, it’s heartbreaking. He uses tons of justifications (” like many couples who have been together for a while”) as well as language implying that it would be better if there was more (“never all that far” “I am mostly okay with this”). He takes care of himself as needed, because his “otherwise committed” girlfriend doesn’t. It’s like a silent scream.
Oh great, first my post didn’t show up, and now it’s a double post. Sorry everyone.
Can someone please explain what the big thing about gay marriage is? Isn’t marriage fundamentally a religious institution? And doesn’t religion say “no way jose” to gayness?
Um, actually, no, it’s NOT primarily a religious institution – it’s a legal institution which confers significant legal (including preferred tax status) benefits on the folks who can partake of it. If there were no legal preferences for married over single, then your argument would be interesting.
I’m probably responding to a troll anyway.
Something I haven’t seen mentioned anywhere since the passing of Prop 8. The CSC decision let stand the gay marriages already entered into. Isn’t this the same as saying that gay marriage is valid?
I mean, gay marriage is either legal or not. Seems like their validating those marriages negates the legal basis for the amendment.
Somebody want to explain the logic to me and why this isn’t an open invitation to an invalidation of the amendment?
As yet another reminder that we’re winning the gay marriage issue, New Hampshire, where I was born and raised, just joined the list of states with marriage equality. The legislature and governor took the lead, not the courts, which is also good news. This is in a state where 20 years ago having a (D) after your name was political suicide, and something like this would never have even made it onto the legislature’s schedule.
About the California thing: You all need to be constantly registering those young voters, as soon as they turn 18. Don’t just bank on the oldies leaving the scene.
Good lord. Talking about marriage at 3 months, moving in at eight months. What next? Married at 9 months and divorced at 12 months?
Sounds like your boyfriend came to his senses, took off the fuzzy love goggles, and put on the practical goggles, and decided to put the brakes on this inevitable wedding train you seem to be on.
Don’t move in with him. But if he’s a good guy, continue to date and see where it goes. But good grief, stop talking about marriage – both of you.
Well, Dan, I agree that in this case, waiting a long time would be best, because clearly both are not ready.
I knew that my husband of 35 years was going to be that the instant he walked in the door. He was gracious enough to let me catch him quickly. “Love at first sight” is alive and kicking, just not with these two.
I read the Wedded Miss question and paused before reading Dan’s & other responses, in order to formulate my own.
“I would have believed in the guy a lot more if it hadn’t been for the fact that he still wanted to move in w/her. A lot of guys hold out the promise of marriage to draw a woman in… he got her hopes up so that she’d move in with him. Or, maybe he just got carried away in the heat of the moment. It happens. But talk is cheap, and that’s all it is.
Now it seems like he wants his space, so let him have all the space he wants. Don’t move in together. It may be perfectly fine to keep dating, or not… that’s a separate issue.”
Something similar happened to me about 8 years ago. A hot new honey started talking about ‘long-term partnership’ – his words – then dropped out of sight right about when I started taking it seriously. In his case, he was suffering from depression and perhaps he believed that a romance would pull him out of his funk, and when it didn’t – he blamed me.
i haven’t even finished reading the rest of the article because i was SO HAPPY to read your response to the first letter that i scrolled straight down to comment on it.
THANK YOU for saying that! marriage is not something to be taken lightly! i think anyone who wants to be married should be married, but that no one should seriously consider it until they’ve known their partner long enough to know what they DONT like about them… cuz like it or not, once you’re married, you’re signed up for life! if you don’t like it later, sure you can always divorce i guess, but if thats your back up plan then you should NOT be getting married!
I read the Wedded Miss question and paused before reading Dan’s & other responses, in order to formulate my own.
“I would have believed in the guy a lot more if it hadn’t been for the fact that he still wanted to move in w/her. A lot of guys hold out the promise of marriage to draw a woman in… he got her hopes up so that she’d move in with him. Or, maybe he just got carried away in the heat of the moment. It happens. But talk is cheap, and that’s all it is.
Now it seems like he wants his space, so let him have all the space he wants. Don’t move in together. It may be perfectly fine to keep dating, or not… that’s a separate issue.”
Something similar happened to me about 8 years ago. A hot new honey started talking about ‘long-term partnership’ – his words – then dropped out of sight right about when I started taking it seriously. In his case, he was suffering from depression and perhaps he believed that a romance would pull him out of his funk, and when it didn’t – he blamed me.
(apologies if this is a double post)
@68- They’re saying that it’s illegal for gays to marry each other, not for gays to BE married to each other. Since some couples got married while they were perfectly legally able to do so, they are married now. Habeus corpus or something. But from now on, getting married if you’re gay remains illegal, unless it’s a sham wedding. They love the sham marriages because when they break down it validates the belief that gay people are bad for families.
I met my wife in October, proposed at New Years’, married her in July, less than a year after our first date. Thirteen years later we’re still going strong.
Every couple’s different. It felt right for me to start thinking about spending the rest of my life with the woman I married pretty darn quick. But you do have to be careful–don’t ignore misgivings and don’t try to bury your doubts with false bravado. That way lies disaster.
Rare miss on your advice to LIAR, Dan. LIAR never said that she and her boyfriend were planning a wedding, or even talking seriously about marriage at 3 months or at 8 months. She did say that her boyfriend had been holding himself out as a marriage-minded male (ie, one who is open to the idea of marriage, and perhaps even expects to be married to someone someday) for 5 months. Relying on this (LIAR implies), she agreed to take their relationship to the next level and moved in with him. Now he tells her that he was lying for 5 months, and he is not and never has been marriage-minded.
In the past you’ve merrily advised people to dump partners who, say, started a relationship as a fit person and then got fat. After all, the fatty misrepresented herself as someone interested in fitness, so she’s got a breakup coming. Same logic here. LIAR’s boyfriend is an admitted liar who maintained and advanced their relationship on lies. She should DTMFA.
“Um, actually, no, it’s NOT primarily a religious institution – it’s a legal institution which confers significant legal (including preferred tax status) benefits on the folks who can partake of it.”
Actually, unless married partner makes a LOT more than the other, marriage confers a tax penalty. No reason why gays shouldn’t pay that penalty, too, if they want, though.
C_in_VA, you are a tool. no one cares about grammar.
What? Only one shout-out to New Hampshire? Sure, we got lapped by a few states, but we finally did it! Here’s to another win for equality!
Interestingly, I think the entrenched old-school Republicanism—the kind with a streak of libertarianism—is part of what got us there. When out-of-staters ask how New Hampshire could get so blue, I tell them that NH is not really blue or red, but mostly belongs to the “mind your own god damned business” party. Every once in a while, it comes in handy!
Dan, my parents got married after 5 months of knowing each other (engaged after 2.) After 26 years, they remain one of the healthiest, happiest couples I know. It’s true that it’s GENERALLY unwise to discuss marriage so early in a relationship but that’s only a guide line, not a hard and fast law of nature. A couple discussing marriage so early isn’t necessarily doomed. (and 16 months seems like plenty of time to me…). This woman’s boyfriend seeming categorically opposed to EVER getting marriage seems to me to be quite a different issue that doesn’t even have a whole lot to do with the length of time they’ve been together.
dis⋅in⋅ter⋅est
/dɪsˈɪntərɪst, -trɪst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dis-in-ter-ist, -trist] Show IPA
–noun
1. absence of interest; indifference.
–verb (used with object)
2. to divest of interest or concern.
just sayin’…
LIAR, your man isn’t being honest. Why would you still want to be with someone who told you everything he said about marriage wasn’t true? Is that someone you want to move in with? You deserve respect. You’re not getting it. It works for him: he can sleep with you, you live with him..how does this work for you? Early behavior like that probably isn’t going to get any better. If you two don’t have trust and understanding don’t move in with him!
If you really think he’s scared or going through something..see him but don’t move in with him. Give it some time. If you ask me though he’s pulling the oldest trick in the book. Listen to your family and friends.
I agree that LIAR never said she and her boyfriend were doing anything like actually planning a wedding or “discussing marriage” at 3 months or 8 months. She said that he had brought up marriage, period. It was most likely hypotheticals. I agree with Welkin–it wasn’t that he was ever promising to marry her, he probably just talked casually of marriage sometimes, like “when I get married, I want to have 2 kids…” or “If we got married, I’d want x or Y or Z” etc, and thus led LIAR to believe that he would consider marriage SOMEDAY. And now he tells her he doesn’t ever want a wedding at all.
Guys – please can someone tell me what the benefits that marriage bestows that everyone is so hyped about?
I find it rather surprising that so many people are jumping on the “too soon” bandwagon; shouldn’t that be subjective, as in “it’s different for everyone”? I agree when Dan says 3 or 5 or 8 months is too soon, but 16? That’s well over a year; is it really unreasonable to start talking about marriage by then? How long were Dan & Terry together before they decided they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with each other? I have a feeling it wasn’t as long as 16 months.
“I agree when Dan says 3 or 5 or 8 months is too soon, but 16?”
Well, you agree it’s subjective, and then you say 3 or 8 months is too soon. I guess it’s only subjective in certain cases 😉
Great column…I just want to add my two cents as a DV lawyer to Dan’s advice to LIAR.
Frequently, a man being too eager to jump ahead to marriage, living together, etc can be a red flag for later domestic violence in a relationship. Abusive and controlling men often want to get women in as compromised a position as possible as soon as possible. These women then interpret this as flattering and romantic and jump into marriage and even kids. It’s a recipe for disaster, trust me – I help these women divorce ten years and three kids later.
I don’t have any insight into the actual question, LIAR, but perhaps you should count your blessings that this guy changed his mind.
my husband and I got engaged at 6 months and now have been together 3 years, are happily married, and expecting a baby. Granted we were both in our 30s when we met, but knowing you want to get married at 8 months is not necessarily a red flag.
changing your mind, however, is a different story.
Long time reader, first time commenter. Dan, you helped me a lot, especially dealing with the aftermath of my mixed orientation marriage (truly opposite, not vanilla hetero as per MOANS). I’m attending my ex’s civil partnership next month. Here in the UK, CPs are better than nothing, but given that politics as we know it is crumbling fast, I think the issue of true marriage equality won’t be raised any time soon 🙁
33 – some Protestants do not. The Church of England recognises marriage as a sacrament.
From http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/interf…, I quote: “Although marriage is indeed common to human life and not exclusive to Christians, Anglicans think it better to speak of ‘the Christian doctrine of marriage’ rather than ‘Christian marriage’….For Christians marriage is part not only of the order of Creation but also of Redemption, ‘signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church’.”.
Sure, the 39 Articles may categorise five of the sacraments as “not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel”, but Pope Leo X thought Henry VIII’s book “Defence of the Seven Sacraments” (pre the whole wanting to divorce Cat of Aragon, natch) so good that he awarded him the title Fidei Defensor, which is still part of the UK monarch’s titles to date.
Sorry for switching from grammar fascism to religious nitpicking, but I couldn’t let such a sweeping generalism stand. Mea culpa, I’ll try and remember this should I ever again avail myself of the sacrament of reconciliation.
My best friends got engaged at only 5 months and have been together and happily married for several years now. All of us (their friends) were skeptical at first wondering if it was too soon. They are a model couple and an inspiration to me. Sometimes i think you just know no matter how long you’ve been together…but in LIAR’s case it sounds like your bf changed his mind after the honeymoon phase ended…sorry, he sounds like a douche and I’d dump him asap!
This is my first post, because it’s the first time I’ve really disagreed with something you said. Making an absolute judgment on how long you should be in a relationship before considering marriage is just as wrong and saying that all relationships should be hetero. I knew my fiance for 8 months before we started dating, and the thought of marrying him occurred to me even before that first date (that was actually the reason I decided to try dating him). We started talking about marriage after 3 months of being a couple, moved in together after 4 months, and got engaged after 11 months. No one who knows us, family or friends, thinks any of this is crazy. In fact several are surprised how long it took. We’re both around 30, had lots of relationship experience, and know what works for us and what doesn’t. Every relationship is different, as you’ve always advised. I hope you reconsider your statement.
Women are so stupid, geez. Moving in as soon as a man shows interest, excitedly talking about spending the REST of their life with someone after 90 days of knowing them. Idiots.
My husband started hinting at marriage after 3 months, proposed after 6 months, and we got married on one year anniversary of our first date. We have been married for close to 2 years, and we have never been happier.
If it takes you or your partner over a year to decide on the marriage, you are not right for each other – move on!
You know, bukboy, it’s fuckwads like you that make America suck. Not because you’re ignorant, or bigoted, but because you’re a lazy thinker. “Can someone please tell me…” pretty much says it all. Do you try to find out for yourself? No! Are you aware of a thing called “google” which is found on the “internet”? No! Do you even bother reading the other posts in this thread, which ACTUALLY ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? No! You sit there on your fat behind, demanding other people do the work. I’m thinking in a previous life you were one of those French geese that aren’t allowed to exercise & force-fed fatty foods to make their liver nice ‘n tasty. Because you haven’t changed your approach to life.
This quote is really rich–
“Being a capitalist myself I don’t believe anyone owes you anything that you don’t provide for yourself”
Except, of course, filling your ignorant noggin with facts because you’re too damn lazy to find out for yourself. Everyone owes you that.
i’m not sure how to go about it, but it seems like california has left open the possibility of using the popular vote to affect almost anything in that state. we need to come up with a proposition that is distasteful to the christian right, limits their power (cash flow) and bring it to vote.
how about mandating that churches need to pay property tax on their land holdings; or maybe banning out of state money from being used in campaigns. either of these would limit the amount of money available to fight a gay marriage proposition.
dan has been successful in taking down some powerful politicians with this column (mr santorum) how about using it to expose/exploit the weakness in our largest states constitution?
Am I the only one who thinks David Carradine died of Erotic Asphyxiation?
Naked in the closet with the rope? I think so Col. Mustard.
@76
Here’s what Wikipedia says of Prop 8:
“Proposition 8 was a California ballot proposition passed in the November 4, 2008 general election and took effect on November 5, the day after the election. It changed the California Constitution to add a new section (7.5) to Article I, which reads: “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” This change restricted the definition of marriage to opposite-sex couples, and eliminated same-sex couples’ right to marry, thereby overriding portions of the ruling of In re Marriage Cases by “carving out an exception to the preexisting scope of the privacy and due process clauses” of the state constitution. The proposition did not affect the existing domestic partnerships in California.”
So, again, how does recognizing the validity of the marriages between gays that took place before May 26 not invalidate this amendment? If the CSC had revoked those marriages and changed them to DPs, it would have made more sense within the law.
I certainly am no legal scholar and I know that law often doesn’t equate with logical or fair. Still it makes no legal sense to me, unless there is some precedent in the area of being “grandfathered in”? Just seems to me like a big, wide door for overturning the amendment. Either the marriages are recognized or not, a date shouldn’t be the difference. Especially since there is that much older precedent where States have always recognized marriages entered into in other states. What about gays who got married in another state before May 26th??
Dan, The problem with ballot initiatives here in California is that we have become a state the governs by ballot initiatives. Why do we go through the trouble to elect someone if we constantly use ballot initiatives? If, in 2010 or 2012 voters do over turn Prop 8 then how long do we wait for someone from the far right get an initiative on the ballot to go back the other way? I never sign petitions no matter what the cause.