I am a mostly straight, 22-year-old woman. I am a pretty GGG kind of gal. So I just started seeing this guy. I haven’t known him for long—no serious sexual activity yet. The other night, a few drinks in, we ventured into talking about sex and porn. When I asked what type of porn he watches, he said that he likes videos of “dirty whores, rape scenarios, and gang bangs.” Now mind you, I like being treated like a dirty whore. And I love porn. But for some reason, this put me off. I ended up heading home early, and I am apprehensive about seeing him again.

Was my reaction legit? I’ve indulged other partners in bondage, BDSM, power games, and so on (which I am very much into). So why am I judging this nice, good-looking guy as a creep?

Turned Off And
Displeased

First, TOAD, I want to praise you for trusting your gut and getting out of there. Everyone should follow your example: When someone is making you uncomfortable, folks, emulate TOAD—make your excuses and bolt. On to your question…

You’ve liked being treated like a dirty whore and you’ve done BDSM with other guys, so why are you judging this particular guy?

Someone who’s turned on by extreme power games—hardcore BDSM, degradation, verbal abuse, role-play scenarios, sexist stereotypes—has to demonstrate that he (or she) is not just extremely trustworthy, TOAD, but extremely sensible. And when this guy shared his interest in some pretty extreme kinks so early in the relationship (“haven’t known him for long”), your gut rightly told you that this “nice, good-looking guy” wasn’t someone with whom you would feel safe.

You simply didn’t know him well enough to say to yourself, “Hey, that’s some hardcore shit there—but he’s proved himself to be a good person and I would feel safe doing this stuff with him.” And not only didn’t you know him well enough to come to that conclusion, he should’ve known that you didn’t know him well enough to come to that conclusion.

By sharing his kinks too soon, TOAD, this seemingly nice guy demonstrated poor judgment and worse impulse control. And rock-solid judgment and gold-plated impulse control are the first and second things we should look for in someone whose sexual interests are way the fuck out there.

I don’t think he should’ve lied, TOAD, but he should’ve had the common sense to kick the conversation down the road or downplay without misrepresenting, i.e., instead of saying, “I’m into dirty whores, rape scenarios, and gang bangs,” he could have said, “I’m into experienced business women, some intense role-play scenarios, and I’m intrigued by group sex scenes with significant gender imbalances.” Then, after he had proved himself to be a decent, trustworthy guy with rock-solid judgment and gold-plated impulse control, he could’ve given you a clearer picture of his kinks without creeping you out.

I’m not saying that he’s a creep or an abuser—or that he’s not. Maybe he’s just young and inexperienced and hasn’t learned how to talk about his creepy kinks without creeping people out, TOAD, or maybe the booze caused him to blurt out something he usually rolls out with more finesse. It’s up to you whether you give him a second chance—but make the next date a dry one, and if he creeps you out, trust that gut of yours, make your excuses, and bolt.

I’m in my 30s, male, married, and bisexual. I have a problem with my wife. She does not accept my bisexuality as “real” since I never took it in the ass. Furthermore, she gets embarrassed
when we are with our gay friends and tales of my man-on-man experiences come up. She wants me not to talk about it at all. I’m not hitting on anyone, or contemplating cheating on her with a man, or anything, just talking about the past—or agreeing with her when she says Clive Owen is totally hot.

Am I wrong to think that she is being kind of an asshole? Or am I just being selfish in not soothing her faithfulness fears?

Likes Men But Loves Wife

Hm… your wife refuses to believe that you’re bisexual because you never got around to taking it in the ass. There’s a simple way to solve that problem, LMBLW: Take it in the ass a couple dozen times and present your wife with a lovely boxed set of commemorative DVDs.

That would mean cheating on her, though, something you’re not interested in doing and something she fears. I suppose you could point out that women with straight husbands aren’t exactly guaranteed an
adultery-free ride. Sandra Bullock, Jenny Sanford, and Elin Nordegren all married 100 percent heterosexual men—at least so far as we know at press time—and despite their husbands’ failure to take it in the ass (no man’s perfect), all three women wound up on the cover of In Touch, Us, and People.

But, while I think your wife is being a bit of an asshole by not accepting your bisexuality, LMBLW, regaling gay pals with tales of your man-on-man experiences could annoy a spouse who was comfortable with your sexuality.

As a “not-stereotypical-looking” lesbian attracted to other “not-stereotypical-looking” lesbians, I wish EVERY “single and looking” lesbian wore something that said so—like the lesbian reader last week who was thinking about going out in a “Single. Lesbian. Interested?” T-shirt. When I do go out to the one lesbian bar in my city, people look at me with that “What are you doing in OUR bar?” stare.

Show Me Your Status

There are nearly twice as many gay-identified men out there as there are lesbian-identified women. This fact alone is all the proof we need that homosexuality isn’t a choice. Considering what shits straight men can be—judging from my mail—surely more women would choose homosexuality if they could.

Anyway, it seems to me that what single lesbians need—in addition to dyke bars, internet personal ads, women’s softball leagues, and cat-food aisles in grocery stores (man, those lesbian/cat jokes never get old)—is a secret sign. I’m thinking something subtle, SMYS, not because I’m pro-closet, but because I’m pro-tasteful. Message T-shirts? Never tasteful. And “Nobody Knows My Girlfriend Is a Lesbian” T-shirts are very 1995 (and highly unlikely to get a single girl a date).

Instead, maybe all lesbians everywhere should start wearing a button. No words, just a solid color, something small and tasteful that could be pinned to the strap of a purse (popular with “not-stereotypical-looking” lesbians), the lapel of a jacket, or the belt loop on a pair of jeans. Thinking outside the lavender/pink/purple box, I think the button should be green—green for “go,” green as in “Go ahead and hit on me, ladies. I’m a lesbian.”

I will be answering love and sex questions
in Questionland on April 22.
Visit thestranger.com/questionland to ask me questions and see my answers.

mail@savagelove.net

226 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. Dan – I’m a little upset with you here.

    You’re always giving people advice (especially on the podcast) to throw their fetishes out there early on. Not being sexually compatible is a deal breaker, but you give TOAD advice when this guy just laid it on the table to walk away.

    Honestly, I think walking is the right option but not for the reason you give. He threw it on the table and it didn’t sit right with her. That guy deserves to be with somebody who hears that stuff and gets turned on.

  2. As a straight midwest girl new to seattle it was always a funny and flattering ‘tourist moment’ to be hit on by lesbian chicks. “Why is that girl smiling at me?” I would wonder. Polite midwest people smile back and say hi, it’s deeply ingrained. I would then figure it out, laugh on the inside, and exit the situation politely. Don’t be afraid to hit on chicks who seem nice. I’d much rather be hit on by a chick than a guy. Lesbians tend to be nicer and also it made me feel hip and cool instead of objectified.

  3. As a woman who not-so-secretly likes nonconsensual (i.e. rape) fantasies, dirty ‘whore/slut’ action and all that in the bedroom…I would STILL have been weirded out and turned off if a guy who was so new (if I can count our dates/extended conversations on one hand) threw it on the table in the manner that was described by the letter above. I am, as I imagine many SL readers also are, not particularly shy or shocked by sex and porn. If we were talking casually about sex and porn, EVEN THOUGH I LIKE THE SAME THINGS, the manner in which “dirty whores, rape scenarios, and gang bangs” was just tossed out there would have probably been pretty off-putting for me.

    “He respected her enough to give her a directly honest answer. That’s tact, or at least it should be.”

    Any time people argue how some social norm “should” be, they’re already ignoring how that norm IS.

    In fact, what this sentence is describing is the exact opposite of tact; it is being BLUNT. Bluntness may be one person’s belief of what polite or considerate behavior is (I should be totally up front so as to not waste my time or hers), but it is not by any interpretation of the word “tact.” Tact by definition is the sense of what to do to avoid offending people and how to act appropriately in (delicate) social situations. Tact is a scalpel, bluntness is a meat mallet.

  4. @ 191- Some people get turned on by gentle caresses or being tickled with a feather. At the other end of the spectrum, some people get turned on by canings or piercing play. Most people probably enjoy a range and variety of sensations. Sometimes I’m in the mood for gentle, other times I want some pain. My partner loves and respects me, so he’s GGG.

  5. Gee dude, maybe it’s got nothing to do with your sexuality at all – maybe it’s your incredible insensitivity at regaling the room with stories of your past sexual experiences in front of your wife that’s putting her off. Ya think? Jesus, what a dickhead.

  6. re TOAD

    As my driving instructor said to me, “if it feels good, do it.” I guess the opposite is also true.

    Though bear in mind, I still can’t drive.

    Bish

  8. Re: the “Lesbian Button” suggestion brought back memories of my own experience 30 years ago, as young, feminine, attractive, heterosexual, nerdy chemistry major in a small town upstate New York college. I was passing a button table set up in a hallway outside a Women’s Studies conference. There among the feminist slogans was a lovely subtle button — the Chinese symbol for person. “Cool” I thought “This feminist button is tasteful and even a little obscure, signifying a common humanity- neither ‘man’ nor ‘woman’ but ‘person'” I bought the button and displayed it prominently on the shoulder strap of my purse. Over the next few months I received numerous smiles from women (only women), and at least a half dozen times a woman (and only women)specifically looked at me meaningfully and said “I really like your button!” Her expression would shift as I’d happily respond with “Yes! Isn’t it cool — the Chinese symbol for person!” I was amazed really at how many other people were familiar with this Chinese symbol.
    Until one day I was hanging out with a friend and her friend who had come up from “The City” (as in New York City) to visit. “Why are you wearing a Lambda button?” she asked. I went into my full pedantic explanation of “This is the Chinese symbol for person… and that’s why it’s a great feminist symbol… blah blah” She just looked at me and said “It’s a Lambda. A gay symbol” “Why would anyone make a button of a Greek letter?” I asked “And what does that have to do with Gay…” And even as the words were coming out of my mouth debating the origin and meaning of this symbol… a light began to dawn …the women smiling…the meaningful looks with the “I really like your button” comments.
    I took the Lambda off my purse after that. But I like to think of this funny experience as a foreshadowing, as I left my heterosexual marriage 15 years later and happily entered a lesbian relationship. See what comes of wearing Lesbian buttons!

  9. Don’t ask a question unless you’re prepared for the answer. If you don’t want to hear that a guy you’re into likes whore porn, then don’t ask what kind of porn he likes. Because most men are into whore porn.

    That’s not a good question at a bar, or on an early date. Christ, people.

  10. I’m really grateful for this first letter. I was kinda-seeing-but-definitely-fucking this guy, and it was great, but he was into some really kinky things. I’m normally really open-minded when it comes to kink and “alternative” sexual interests. But I think it was all sprung on me really fast and I kinda freaked out. His request to take me to a tranny strip club was just not at my comfort level yet. I didn’t understand why I got so freaked out.. but the whole needing to be dominated by someone logical and trustworthy thing seems to make sense. Thanks Dan!!

  11. My coworker and I would like to know where Dan gets his information to form the following statement:

    “There are nearly twice as many gay-identified men out there as there are lesbian-identified women.”

    We seem a bit skeptical based on our local area…

  13. Would you like to make friends with people from other country or place?
    Log on Mixed—Mingle .c-o-m
    Then you can get help and suggestions from all over the world.
    While you may find your true love or friendship there.

  15. Oh #7 how I envy you and gay men everywhere! Y’all never have to deal with women for sexual gratifacation. Women pull the lamest shenanigans(yes I know it’s engraned in every cell by the church, media, the 100,000 which burnings… I don’t blame them, it’s just frustrated) I had one grab my dick, put it in, just the tip, and when I started pushing she dramatically said ‘wait, stop, it’s too soon’. This was a women who was VERY experienced in the BDSM arena, 3somes, group sex… and who invited me over for our 3rd date while drinking margaritas. Go fucking figgure! At least dykes are on = footing as they’re women too.
    Two men who make long eye contact will fight or fuck. So what you did on the subway is, like, nothing. I’d like to see you try that with a Japaneese woman on a subyaw in Hong Kong yuk yuk. A little ympathy eh?
    PS. Dan, I like the green button idea!

  16. Late post, I know. Green buttons used to be worn (or at least an attempt was made for them to be) by Wiccans to identify themselves to others while still maintaining a low profile. So it might cause some confusion. Or at least some interesting conversations!

  17. As a woman who’s in some sort of a relationship with a bisexual man (we’re being young and stupid), I can say that part of the bisexual man’s wife’s fear may be that he wants to have anal sex. As in, he is bisexual, and since he hasn’t had that sexual experience yet and she can’t provide it for him, he will seek it elsewhere.

    Or else the Tiger Woods analogy works swimmingly.

  18. There needs to be an app for that. Fabulis is making in roads, but it seems to be primarily focussed on gay men right now. However, the idea is brilliant. Make a wildly popular app and market the hell out of it to gays and lesbians. As a social media marketer and hobbyist, I in general hate the slew of location based services. But this is the most useful idea for it I have heard yet. Imagine, you walk into a bar, shake you iphone, and see profiles for all the other gays and lesbians in the bar. It takes the human error factor out of gaydar.

  19. There needs to be an app for that. Fabulis is making in roads, but it seems to be primarily focussed on gay men right now. However, the idea is brilliant. Make a wildly popular app and market the hell out of it to gays and lesbians. As a social media marketer and hobbyist, I in general hate the slew of location based services. But this is the most useful idea for it I have heard yet. Imagine, you walk into a bar, shake you iphone, and see profiles for all the other gays and lesbians in the bar. It takes the human error factor out of gaydar.

  22. “Furthermore, she gets embarrassed when we are with our gay friends and tales of my man-on-man experiences come up. She wants me not to talk about it at all.”

    I wonder if LMBLW thinks his wife would enjoy hearing him talk about his heterosexual experiences with his friends in front of her.

  23. @ 20 – You missed the point about the blow jobs. The reference to “expecting it” is the attitude that alot of “guys” have where they go into a situation thinking, “this bitch is going to suck my cock” with no regard whatsoever of the human being with whom they’re having sex AND the “giving nature” of sex at all. It is a prevalent attitude that is a BIG turn-off when just starting up a sexual relationship. I’ve been with many men who made no effort to do ANYTHING to please me in bed but (a) pushed my head in that direction, (b) licked my twat for a milisecond and then pushed my head in that direction, (c) came right out and said, “suck my dick” and many, many more of the same types of behaviour.
    The thing is, when folks go into a sexual relationship with someone “with a script” they often forget there are TWO (maybe more) people in the room with them.
    Blow jobs, sure. If I want to do that. A man DEMANDING that I “suck his dick?” Nope, not ever.
    It is the attitude of so many “guys” (not men) of treating women as if they are nothing more than “a hole” or, well, “dirty whores” that causes many a rift in sexual relationships.
    What is ok in the bedroom is often ridiculous in “real life.”
    Also, ANY guy who listed those things to me, I would immediately KNOW we weren’t sexually compatible. I find the whole “dirty whore” thing tedious and the notion almost always comes from “rebelling” against a religious – or repressed – background or that whole “Oooooh, aren’t I SO naughty” thing. I’m a bit more grown up and accepting of myself and my body and what it can do to have to engage in tedious “you’re a dirty whore” crap just to get some kid off.
    I have yet to meet a MAN who is into that, by the way. It is always guys who have sex-guilt issues. I have been with well over 200 men so I do have a basis for comparison of them.
    Sex is meant to be enjoyed AND it is meant to create other human beings. There isn’t ANYTHING “sinful” or “dirty” about it. It just is. If more people learned to love themselves and understand “who” they are as people then there’d be less of the tediousness of sexual relationships.
    Back to the blow jobs. If I feel like it AND the guy turns me on, then, sure, why not? The same way, I don’t EXPECT for a guy to eat my pussy EVERY single time.
    It isn’t “the act.” It is the script. Humans rarely live up to someone else’s script.

  24. @ 39 – He didn’t write into the column, she did so we do not “need” to know what the guy is thinking.
    She trusted her instincts, the guy creeped her out and she can either take the advice of giving the guy a wide berth or cause herself irritation by seeing the guy (who creeps her out) again.

    You wrote: “Why should he have to invest emotional energy in a relationship without first ascertaining whether it would be sexually appealing?”
    Why should she? She asked him. She got her answer. She owes him nothing. It is up to him to word things in such a manner that attracts a suitable sexual partner for him. It isn’t HER problem.
    The main reason for the letter was her attempt to justify having to “be rude” to someone else. You may not realise it but little girls are taught to “be nice” more often than you may consider and in that teaching, there are plenty of grown women who are not used to exerting the “fuck you” which is so useful in some situations.
    She just has to learn how to trust how she feels and that guy just needs to learn about boundaries with others.
    Also, no one picked up on the “rape scenarios?!” I know this is an “open-minded” forum but a guy liking both “dirty whores” and “rape scenarios” is a pretty clear indication of where his head may be. It almost sounds like a wind-up but alas there are plenty of men who just hate women.
    I write that because if her instincts told her he was “creepy” then it was the “hating women” part that she was feeling and not the whole, “aren’t-we-so-open-minded-and-respectful-of-each-other-that-I-can-just-tell-you-I-like-watching-women-being-raped-because-I-don’t-really-believe-that.”
    It is easy to forget, in a forum such as this one, that there are millions of unhappy people in the world who use sex to act out their struggles with their own inadequacy. This guy sounds like one of them.

  25. My husband is a lawyer and I have told him if he keeps cross examining me in arguments I’ll start throwing shit at him to remind him this is not a courtroom. Seldon STFU with the deposition tactics. Stop trying to ask around and around the question trying to trip people up. Instead listen to where they’re coming from, accept it, and adjust your behaviour accordingly if you so choose. Save the argumentative attempt to win Savage Love Moot Court for your internship. However, I’d like to thank you for disclosing your lawyer training because about halfway through your replies I found my blood pressure going through the roof and wondering wtf my problem was. Then I realized you argue exactly like my husband does when he’s in lawyer mode. That’s even more annoying than blurting out you like dirty fuckin’ whores on a first date. You will not get much pussy for long term if you keep that shit up.

  26. The labyris used to work as perfect lesbian code. When I wore mine, I got lots of girl attention, but non-lesbians hardly ever noticed it. Let’s bring it back into fashion!

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