I’m a mostly gay male with a boyfriend who is also mostly gay. We are into BDSM—we are both tops and sometimes play with other sub men. I say we are “mostly” gay because we do like to fuck/top submissive women once in a while. We haven’t done this a lot, and never together because we don’t have the same taste in women—until recently. One of our new neighbors, a straight female, is very shy, but she’s opened up to us about her interest in BDSM. We took her to a play party, and she was okay watching others play, but any time anyone expressed an interest in her, she clammed up and withdrew. She stayed at our side the entire time.

We are interested in propositioning her. Our dilemma is in how to approach someone so gun-shy. We want to seduce her into the experience and not make her uncomfortable, but we can’t agree as to how to go about it. Another issue is that we think the reason she has been so open with us is because she assumes we are both 100 percent gay.

Two Guys And A Girl Toy

She meets two guys who live together, have presumably noisy BDSM sex with each other and other men, and identify themselves as gay. I’m sure you can appreciate why, under the circumstances, your neighbor might assume you two were gay, right? And that assumption convinced her it was safe to open up to you guys about her sexual interests—interests that are clearly scaring the shit out of her for the moment—because she further assumed, entirely reasonably, that you guys didn’t wanna stick your dicks in her.

The sooner you come clean, the likelier you are to get into her pants, mouth, ass, twat, etc. Do not attempt to be seductive. Putting the moves on her now could transform a minor and perhaps unwitting violation of her trust into a relationship-ending violation. Instead, just be, um, straight with her: “We should’ve said something sooner, [her name here], but we’re both actually bi, and we thought you should know that. And we also wanted you to know that we’re both attracted to you and, hey, if you want to explore any of this stuff that you’re curious about with us, we’d be up for that. If not, we’re happy to keep being your kinky, gay-identified, completely platonic buddies.”

I am a single, thirtysomething female who has been having a long-term affair with a married man. We have one rule: We tell one another if and when we fool around with other people. About a year ago, I discovered another affair he was involved in while he was out of the country, which he failed to disclose to me. I discovered it because he left his e-mail unattended. He was not apologetic, and I ended up being the one who begged for forgiveness for invading his privacy. He did, however, promise to end his relationship with the woman overseas. I recently discovered that he has struck up a fresh correspondence with this same woman. I gained this knowledge by invading his privacy again—this time by outright hacking his e-mail—but he also betrayed me, and he needs to be held accountable.

You are probably wondering why I am not just cutting this guy out of my life. We have amazing sex and enjoy the same kinks. It is difficult to find someone trustworthy to engage in these activities with. But how can I trust anything he says anymore? I really want to call him on this. He broke our rules. Do you think I am out of line in confronting him?

Mistress Is Pissed

According to the “Mistress, whining about being cheated on” listing in the Association of American Advice Columnists’ Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Staggeringly Self-Serving Bullshit, I’m supposed to slap the shit out of you, MIP. The DSM instructs me to respond to letters like yours with something like this: “Your lover is cheating on his wife with you, you dumb piece of shit, and you’re shocked to learn that he’s cheating on you, too?” That strikes me as a little harsh. So I’ll go with this instead: You can’t expect a guy to take your rules more seriously than he takes his vows.

As for confronting him: The last time you confronted him about another other-woman, MIP, you wound up begging for his forgiveness. So let’s skip the confrontation and accept reality: Unless you’re willing to walk away from the amazing sex, unless you’re willing to dump the motherfucker, he’s going to go on cheating on you and lying to you about it, rules or no rules. He won’t disclose when he’s messing around with other other-women, MIP, because it’s not just the sex that turns him on. Sneaking around, getting away with it, deceiving you and his wife and his other other-women—all of that gives him a feeling of power and control, and those feelings are as, or more, important to him than the orgasms. Accept it or get out.

I need support under my scrotum in order to ejaculate. I am 52 years old, and this condition has gotten worse as I have gotten older. When I am having intercourse, I need a position that supports or raises my scrotum, and when I masturbate, I need to put something under it. Is this okay? Is there a solution to make coming during intercourse easier?

This Old Scrote

Before I touch on your sack, TOS, I’d like to briefly—very briefly—touch on George Rekers’s. Rekers is a towering figure in the religious right. He’s the cofounder of the Family Research Council; a member of the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, a group that claims it can cure homosexuality; and the go-to guy for “expert” testimony about how gay people threaten and endanger children. And last week, Rekers got busted coming back from a 10-day European vacation with a 20-year-old male escort he found on Rentboy.com. Rekers told two reporters from the Miami New Times that he “can’t lift luggage,” so what other choice did he have but to hire a 20-year-old with an eight-inch cock?

To mark the downfall of yet another crazy and hypocritical closet case, I propose that “whatever floats your boat” be immediately and permanently retired in favor of “whatever lifts your luggage.” This will be George “Rentboy” Rekers’s legacy, his lexi-colonic gift to the English language. Help spread the meme.

Back to you, TOS: First, talk about this with a doc—get your sack examined and your prostate checked. If there’s nothing medically wrong, rest assured there’s nothing wrong. Some guys have large, loose sacks and sensitive balls, and the slap, slap, slap of intercourse or masturbation can be uncomfortable, and lifting your luggage spares you the slap, slap, slap. Alternately, TOS, let’s not forget that your dick, balls, sack, and taint compose one big erogenous zone. Lifting your luggage may provide you with a little bit of extra ball/sack/taint stimulation, added stimulation that helps put you over the top, and naturally you rely on that zap more at 52 than you did at 32. So instead of viewing your need for a ball lift as a problem that needs solving, why not view ball support as the solution to a problem. Or to put it another way…

Whatever lifts your luggage, TOS, whatever lifts your luggage.

mail@savagelove.net

142 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. “You can’t expect a guy to take your rules more seriously than he takes his vows.” A most appropriate comment when someone is involved w/a Roman Catholic priest. NOT doing that again!

  3. “Whatever lifts your luggage.” I like that one.

    After the whole Larry Craig incident, I still say “I have to go use the craig” (in place of the “john”) when I’m at the airport.

  4. Simple solution. Dan: scrotal suspensory. Doesn’t interfere with sex and can still be fondled. Where were you on this one !

  5. Kristen, geminigirl….

    EXACTLY!!! How I wish I could hang out with my girlfriends and TALK about my “boyfriend” for hours over a bottle of wine like I used to for hours when I was single! Gloat and moon over him when things were going well, cry when we hit a rough patch….I think that is one of the hardest things about it is the isolation that being the other woman entails.

    There is no sympathy for the mistress- for most of society, we are simply “homewrecking whores”

  6. Oh and science chick? I am ironically laughing at your comment about how you help your man stay married; I think my lover helps me stay married too! We are each others release valve. Plus, I know if I got divorced, I would have to give him up too. It would just be far too painful to have him go home to his wife and me go home to no one, that I would have to end it due to my increased jealousy, and since I can not bear the thought of giving HIM up, I stay married too…

    So I so get your “it definitely makes me NOT a home wrecker” comment!

  7. Well Dan has written at length about how some cheaters aren’t scum, they have perfectly moral reasons for doing so. Why shouldn’t MIP feel cheated and lied to if the guy proclaimed to be one of those people, and in the end it turns out he really was just a POS? I think its justifiable to confront him, while dumping him.

    Because what MIP wants is a trustworthy guy to share her kinks with. That simply isn’t going to happen with this guy. You can’t confront your way into making him the right guy for you. He’s a POS, get over it and find someone else. A kinky woman shouldn’t have a problem doing that, they’re in high demand compared to kinky guys.

  9. My, such prissiness about the marriage vows. The mistress can simply have sex with other people and not tell this guy. He’s not telling her, it’s only fair that she doesn’t have to tell him.

    But, of course, the reason she and he even made the dumb rule about telling each other if they have sex with other partners is to remind themselves that ‘open relationships’, as well as ‘open marriages’ carry the risk of STDs. One might be lulled into a false sense of security if not for the knowledge that dicks are being dipped into other places.

  10. Some of you seem to be confused about the agreement that MIP has with her lover. She isn’t upset because he’s being unfaithful; she’s upset because they agreed to tell each other about the other-other people they slept with.
    So she is not quite as oblivious as you are making her out to be.
    I think Dan’s nailed it though – the secrecy is a part of his turn-on, and she will have to decide how important it is for her to have knowledge of everyone he sticks his dick into.

  12. To the mistresses: just because he says they have little or no sex, doesn’t mean it’s true. Don’t assume he has had a serious conversation with his wife about how their sex isn’t meeting his needs and how he might look elsewhere. Do your married guys really strike you as the type to start these difficult, painful conversations with their wives? Or more the type to assume it wouldn’t do any good, and so they are free to look outside the marriage for extra sex. I suggest you look at Claire59 @98’s comment that she “takes the pressure off them to pretend they are somehow faithful to me.” Why don’t you try encouraging them to see other women, and see if that reveals another side to them. As long as the two of you claim to be monogamous with each other, you’ll never know the truth about his sex life.

  13. I mean, look at how sb53 describes his year of counseling: “sentenced to a very long year of trials and counselling.” No reflection on how he and his wife could have used counseling to figure out *together* how to rebuild excitement in their 37 year marriage. Instead, he just blames his wife, and the mistress who called her, and acts as if whatever effort he puts in ought to be enough to reignite his wife’s sexual affections.

  14. Another side of the coin is whether married guy is telling the truth or not about his home life, if he and the Mistress have an understanding, ie. this is about sex and companionship, he has been clear he isn’t leaving his wife, mistress proceeds with the affair under that agreement, and then she contacts his wife? Not cool either.
    Every individual circumstance is it’s own. I have empathy for kristen, badgirl et al., but I think what they are saying is that they are not homewreckers. There are asshole men (and women) in cheating circumstances, but lots of men involved in these situations would probably tell similar stories about dealing with guilt etc. as these ladies have done. They are in a unique set of circumstances, as everyone is. Damn hard to see it from the outside and understand.

  15. Even if a woman doesn’t think she is being a homewrecker, if her married boyfriend turns out to be a cheating scumbag on her too, she can’t whine to her girlfriends about the situation because she gets no sympathy. I think the reason for that isn’t because you don’t have a right to feel betrayed or cheated on. Its just that, this is the OLDEST oldest oldest story in the book. We all KNOW married men never leave their wives and the mistresses are being played for fools, and then you think your situation is totally different, even though its the same exact story that happened to every other mistress who ever existed. They thought their man was unhappy and trapped and wouldn’t have cheated on their wives if the marriage had been to them, and eventually it comes out the guy is full of shit, seeing other women too and the wife doesn’t even make him that unhappy. Having sympathy for this situation is kinda like having sympathy for someone who falls for a nigerian email scam. Its just too well-known, its unbelievably stupid to think that you were any different.

    And when you can only see your boyfriend in limited fashion during some work hours and when the spouse is out of town, you aren’t seeing him much at all and you don’t even know the tip of the iceberg as to how many other women he’s seeing. Its sad to still see piles of women deluding themselves over these notions.

  16. Ah yet again excellent comments. Glad I came back to check. Yes, ladies, when we find each other (we “other women”) it’s really a relief and it would be great to spend some time in a bitch session. I have a friend in Chicago that I’ve never met in person, only on line because she read some blog postings I did on the subject. We’ve supported each other through a lot – and it’s hard. Society is ganged up on us without knowing ANYTHING about the situation.
    EricaP – I realize that anything he tells me about her is suspect. I know if I tell him I would rather he only has sex with me, that I can’t verify it (although I have some evidence that that’s the case). I do know that he tried to start the conversation many times with her and the only way he got her attention was to tell her he’d been having an affair. That eventually got them into counseling but it took a year and a half, during which all she wanted was for me to go away but didn’t want to go to counseling about what the problems are.
    So as far as I am concerned, the two people that fucked that marriage up are them, not me and him. It was circling the drain long before I came along. And I really hate, in some ways, that I was the thing that finally got them to talk to each other. (On the other hand, he lied to her in counseling about our relationship, and continues to lie to her about me, so it’s hard to imagine that it’s gonna last for the long haul… then again, stranger things have happened, right?)
    BTR – trust me, I’ve thought many times about letting her know what’s happening, but it doesn’t seem like the right thing to do. I guess she deserves to know, but I’m not the right person to tell her. That would cause a LOT of bad shit to happen.

  17. And… the reason we can’t talk to anyone is that so many people are like Karey. Yeah, I see him in a limited fashion. So what? Would I like to have a more normal relationship with him? Sure. Do I wonder if he sees other women when he’s out of town (he actually lives and works in another state during the week and comes homes on weekends)? Sure. But how is that different from any other long term relationship?
    It may be an old story. So what? Don’t pass judgment just because you only see part of the situation and you feel like being judgy.

  18. Great column as usual!

    MIP sounds like a troll, though, I have to say. Not that nobody would be that…um…oblivious…(trying to be nice here) but really, she didn’t even ask a question. Just blurted out her issues like they were really that interesting…I blame reality tv.

  19. Science chick, I’m still wondering, how do you know their marriage is fucked up? Any more than anyone else’s relationship is fucked up, that is. I mean, he’s still with her. And maybe they’re still fucking like rabbits. How do you know that “he tried to start the conversation many times with her,” how do you know she didn’t take the counseling seriously? I mean, you don’t have to care about her or him or their marriage, but since he is clearly willing to lie to her (as my husband was willing to lie to me (and, truth be told, as I was willing to lie to a former boyfriend when I last had an affair)), how do you know that he’s not constantly lying to you too? As the wife, I have chosen to live with the fact that he may still be lying to me even though he says he’s not. But at least I’m not lying to myself anymore, thinking that I’ll be able to tell his truth from his lies. Either my life is good enough for me to stay (it is, and, yes, our sex life rocks), or else it isn’t. I’m trying to take Claire59’s advice to heart: don’t make them pretend to be monogamous. Then you might get the truth. Or not.

  20. Erica, I don’t understand your question. As the wife you have chosen to stay in a situation that you understand may not be entirely honest, because it works for you. Why should science chick be held to a different standard? If she understands her situation and is willing to be in it, why does it matter? I hate to repeat, but every situation is different, and can only be understood from the inside. We all (men and women involved in affairs) understand our own motivations/rationalizations and have to live with them. It doesn’t sound to me like the women in these situations (in comments, anyways) are asking for help. Sounds like they are asking for understanding and the ability to go about their lives without being judged and attacked.

  21. EricaP: Hopefully I can address your comments.

    About having the conversation with his wife about lack of sex/ being unsatisfied…lol! You are correct there, I bet you dollars to donuts he didn’t speak to her about it! Is this fair to her? No. But that being said, having been in “their” lives for 7 years know, I almost “know” her by proxy; I admit my feelings for her are tainted by jealousy and by the fact I don’t really know her. But I have been there for MANY a phone call and I hear his end, and the woman is a shrew. She found his porn collection and threw it away- she is not ok with porn. In thier 10 years together, she has never even seen him masturbate, much less acknowledge it. I am his friend on facebook, as well as being over his house frequently and I have seen beginning of the marriage vs. recent pictures, and lets just say the 80+ pounds isn’t flattering. As a woman, I realize what extra weight can do to self confidence and libido, so all of this leads me to beleive he is telling the truth about his lack of sex life at home. I also that he does love her and values his family tremendously, so as fucked up as it sounds, wants to keep the peace at home, so he does NOT mention her weight gain (hes packed on a few himself, lol) or fight about sex *anymore*. Since I realize how many tears this involves (I have had these fight myself!), I can sooooooo appreciate this perspective, and sometimes after so many fights and hurt feelings, one opts for domestic tranquility and getting your animal needs met elsewhere.

    BTR: Man, I sooooooo agree with you! Everytime one of those homewrecking, fame-grubbing whores (ala Jesse James tattooed bitch or Ryelle Hunter) goes public, I want to VOMIT! I am like it CAN be done, you asshole men just chose the wrong women; hell look at the two I mentioned. You could tell those two dolts couldn’t handle it the minute the opened their airheaded mouths. Poor Sandra :(. I would NEVER do that to not only my lover, but his two children, no matter what happened between us. How could I hurt those innocent kids?

  22. Oh and science chick, I would SOOOO love to read your blog if it is a public/anon. one and you are ok posting it here.

  24. I don’t see it as just about wanting to go about without feeling attacked. They are missing the ability to gab and commiserate to their friends about being mistreated when the boyfriend is a dick, as if this were any other boyfriend. My personal guess as to why they don’t get this is because we just don’t have sympathy for things like people falling for nigerian email scams. Not judging the morals of anyone involved. Someone who’s been betrayed has every right to be hurt by it and the mistresses aren’t the ones doing any cheating. Its just, how are friends supposed to react when you should really know better? Married men have been saying, ‘oh but its different with you’ since the beginning of time. It takes a special breed to believe it at this point.

    I don’t know what kind of friends you all have but even in regular relationships, if I keep going back to a guy who’s mistreated me before my friends stop being understanding about that too. Because these are known quantities and its your choice, at some point you can’t complain about how the other person is treating you when you’ve signed up for it. And what you’ve signed up for is the cliche affair with a married man. The descriptions I’ve read here are a checklist of regularly scheduled events in this kind of affair.

  25. BTR, I’m not telling the mistresses they have to get out. I just get riled up by them claiming to understand their lover’s marriage. I doubt it. I won’t pretend to understand the relationship they have with their lovers, but I’d appreciate it if they’d stop ragging on how the wife in their story isn’t treating the husband well and is all sex-negative. I guess they believe what they believe, but my perspective is that a wife can be as GGG as all get-out, and it doesn’t keep a husband from straying. I’m not complaining about my situation, I just don’t like seeing mistresses justifying their lovers’ actions based on the wives’ supposed deficiencies. It’s not always the way he tells it.

  26. Can’t argue your points Karey. Cliches are cliches because that is the way it usually goes. But if two adults are doing something that they think makes their lives better and minimizes the hurt to their families, and they are willing to put up with the bad parts because the good parts are so good, then that is their choice. It sucks that we can’t introduce the other person to friends and family, but the time we spend with them is worth it. Doesn’t mean we have to like it, but it is the choice we make. I didn’t hear anyone asking for sympathy, they know what they are in the middle of.
    Good to have a forum for others to understand the dynamics so a) they know what they are getting into, b) they don’t feel so alone, c) they can talk about it with others, and d) maybe someone who was cheated on can see some of the other side. It isn’t all about trying to hurt someone you love. It might be about hurting them less and getting through the day yourself. Again, every situation has it’s own circumstances that can’t be judged by those not involved.

  27. Geez, I kind of wonder how hawt these almost gay guys are. It’s sort of a fantasy of mine to get used by a couple of almost gay men…*fans self*

  28. I DON’T know that he’s telling me the truth. I’m not that naive, whatever I am, it’s not that. But as someone else said above – I have enough empirical evidence to believe that he tried a couple of times to get through to her and it didn’t work. I do now believe that things were NEVER as bad as he led me to believe at the beginning… I just think it’s one of those marriages where the passion went away a LONG time ago, that they developed really fucked up ways of communicating (ie, neither one fights fair), etc etc. And for him, having his marriage stay intact so he doesn’t lose his kids, money, social standing, etc. is worth it – as long as he still has me too.
    Maybe this will sound familiar to some of my sisters – I just got arrested for DWI last week and have to go to court next week (another long fucked up story. Anyway…) He offered to go with me, drive me there because when I’m done with that hearing I won’t have a license. Which I thought sounded very sweet until I thought about it and realized I don’t trust him to actually show up. That if she calls and wants him to go pick up a kid at baseball practice or something… that’s what he will do. That he’s made so many promises to me that he hasn’t kept, from “I’ll come by tonight” all the way to “I’m divorcing her, let’s get an apartment together”… that he hasn’t kept. The only way I can stay in this, is to believe nothing he says until it happens.. and have a backup plan, if it’s important. So I told him I didn’t want him to go. Boy, did he hate being told he was unreliable! But that’s just it – if I trust him, I’m being foolish.
    (As to my blog – I took down my posts awhile ago because the site I had them on was getting a little hostile with the comments. Otherwise, I would have been happy to post the link.)

  29. Karey, I don’t think any of us “mistresses” denies anything you say. I think we all pretty much said up front that we know we’re being stupid to some extent. But it’s not because we’re a “special breed” who believes the man who says “it’s different with you.” Ok, maybe MIP is still learning that lesson, but science chick, badgirl, et. al. don’t seem to have too many illusions.

    Neither do I. I’m still relatively new to the situation, and I haven’t encouraged much discussion with my lover about his relationship with his wife (haven’t discouraged it either, just don’t bring it up). I have to assume whatever he says about it–or about any other relationship-related topic–is suspect. I leave it at that and don’t go looking for evidence or asking questions when I’m fairly certain I can’t trust the answers. That, in my view, can only be a mindfuck.

    That’s why my first comment here, to MIP, was to stop reading the guy’s email: If you want to be deluded, be deluded. Otherwise, wake up and accept your situation for what it is.

    For me, it’s comforting to hear from badgirl and science chick because they understand the ups and downs of the situation. They have insight that my other friends don’t. I guess it’s just a human need to normalize things a bit, to feel that your experience fits into some larger context and that you’re not alone.

    Perhaps there are support groups for victims of Nigerian email scams too, and I wouldn’t begrudge those poor souls any comfort that they might take from talking to each other.

    Others can stand on the sidelines, shaking their fingers and being smug, but what good does that do?

  30. I have a group of wives/mommies I can complain to who are always sympathetic when my hubby/kids are annoying the hell out of me….the complaints are repetitive and (dare I say) cliche. All’s I am looking to do is vent- hubby is inconsiderate, messy, etc; kids are driving me batshit crazy. Sometimes it just helps to vent so I can get it off my chest and appreciate the good things I have about my family- which I do, in abundance! My husband is actually a GREAT guy….just…we are mismatched in the passion department. It is NICE to feel not so alone like Kristen said, ESPECIALLY in the case of being the other woman, when all of society is against you, and even YOU realize that you are doing something that is less than ideal.

    Sure the dreamy teen in me fantasizes about running away with my lover because my happiness reaches my zenith when I am with him. But, reality decends. Two families would be shattered. Plus, would the sex remain as hot if I could have it any time I wanted? Who knows, perhaps the reason it is so exquisitly delisicious is that I only get it once or twice a week. And, he is in a field that has been crushed by the economy, and been through 5 jobs in the 7 years I have known him, and unemployed for the past year….I could not deal with that stress.

    In the case of my lover “cheating” on me….again, HIGHLY doubtful, but that is just because of my own unique situation. Wifey keeps SO close tabs on him; he needs to account for his whereabouts at every second of the day; ironically- he has less freedom now then he did when he had a job since he is at her beck and call! The only place we can meet up is his house in case she calls, and there is NO WAY he would bring a stranger there, or someone he had less then a super secure relationship with. We met pre-kids, and established trust before he was a family man. He knows I won’t boil his bunny *grin*.

  31. Loved your last post, science chick, though I’m sorry you have this awful situation (DWI hearing) to deal with. But what you say about trust rang so true to me. I’m grateful that my husband is very reliable in his daily life promises (he’ll show up if it’s important to me). That does help me put up with the fact that I have less confidence I can trust him sexually. For me, this all blew up this year, and he thinks I should trust him again already — because hey, he is telling me the truth, he says. That was just a one-time thing. But even one time (that I know of), it still undermined my confidence that I could trust him and that I’d know if he were lying. (Yes, I used to think that.) So now I just try not to rely too much on his fidelity. He hates hearing that, just like science chick’s lover hated being told he was unreliable. But sometimes they need to hear the truth – to help them see who they are.

  32. First time here, and new listener to DS podcast. The posts of the OW and cheating are riveting! I love all the information others are willing to share about this subject. I am, for the first time in my life involved with a married man. “No married men” was my credo! The original poster and some of these other women (not to be disrespectful) are really hoping to be with the married guy when they divorce their wives. Therefore, they might be expecting more than they should. Chamelion seems to be closer to my situation.

    For 5 years I didn’t date, or have sex, after a 14 year marriage. Ugh! Hard to admit.
    I felt like I never chose the right person. My “picker” was broken.
    I have had many opportunities to “date” married men, but I never was attracted to men that were involved. Liars and cheaters will always lie and cheat.
    Then last year, a person contacted me thru a website that I knew in 8th grade. He moved 1.5 years later and I never saw him again. He was cute, and I had a summer crush on him.

    We would converse via IM for months. It was our 40th high school reunion. (he graduated from another high school). I’m a playful person. I may have flirted, but without motive. He told me he was married. What did I care, I wasn’t going to meet him again. He lived in another city.
    Then the next boundary was broken. Sex Chat. Okay, I thought, this is harmless. Then he wanted to come visit me. I freaked out.

    Okay, I crossed the line. He came to visit me. He stayed at my home. I prepared him to be thrown out, if I go weird. We have fun. He doesn’t want to leave his wife of a million years, I know. And I don’t want to do his laundry. Perfect for me. Now I had a chance to have great sex. (my marriage sucked, especially with sex). I hadn’t had sex for so long, and this seemed perfect for me. Well,
    here I am, almost one year into this. He’s visited me at my home, and brought me to a ski resort to be with him, and now wants me to come and stay at his home while his wife is away for 3 weeks.
    For me, I understand he is a liar and cheater. With his wife, and probably with me, tho he uses those words “trust me”. I don’t. Now, I feel like he is really disrespecting his wife by inviting me to his home.

    I don’t ask about his wife, or their relationship. I don’t want to know, nor do I want him to lie to me, some more.
    I’m not that special. I know this. He says differently, but I know the lover’s place. I know he could have contacted another 8th grade schoolmate, and he has, but nothing came of it. I took the bait. That is fine for me.
    I never expect anything from this person. Well, that’s wrong. He tends to call me every weekday when he is driving home from work. We chat every weekend. I won’t respond to his emails when I know he is on vacation, with his wife. I have come to expect contact, kinda often.
    But, funny, somehow, I do expect for him to respect my health. If he does see other women, he should protect himself. From me or the other ladies. Whatever. This is an important thing to me. Put the fucking “raincoat” on for Crisssakes.
    Now, as other women, we are also betting the wife isn’t cheating as well. We are in bed with their wives too, ya know.
    Okay, I am finally having sex, and really fabulous sex at that, for the first time, in ????? (before marriage).
    So me: I am having sex with a man that isn’t available, and lives over 8 hours away. (we tend to see each other every other month for at least 4 days). This is his responsibility: our meetings.
    I hope he never leaves his wife. (he could be too selfish: community property state; no kids, or, like other people here say, he still loves his wife, but isn’t getting any).
    Very interesting. For some to be involved for 5-7 years, and aren’t 58 years old, I wonder what they expect?

  33. Justastart:

    Thanks for sharing your story! And really, its fascinating, because even though we all have something in common and can be respectful and empathetic towards each others plight as the other woman, I think there are also moments that despite this common bond we go “how can she do *that*?” You question what do we hope to get out of that (those of us who have been into it for the long haul). My answer: AMAZING, earth shattering sex! I never get to see my lover for extended periods of time like you do, but I do get to see him roughly once a week- we live about 20 minutes from each other.

    We all have things that we can’t handle. For example, my limit would be, I could not do the other woman routine if I were single. This would simply be too heart breaking for me. I actually hate that I have developed feelings for my lover: we started out as supplimental fuck buddies, and I actually curse my stupid female, cliche feelings that arose! Dammit.

    I have really enjoyed talking to all of you ladies (and guys too!). I have even thought about setting up a web email address to post to see if any of you would care to write….

  34. I have enjoyed everyone’s perspective also badgirl. You are bang on the point. Fuckbuddies are a great idea, but once you start developing feelings, it brings a whole set of issues. The problem is, once the feelings come along, when the sex is so great, it is hard to put the brakes on and get out before the feelings take over. Hope things keep working out for you.

  35. Badgirl, you know I’d write! Was trying to think of a way for the OWs (for lack of a better term) to get in touch. Hearing your stories has been therapeutic, but I’m afraid to post too much here–personal paranoia, I suppose.

    And Justatart, you sound a lot like me. Never before attracted to men who had other women in or anywhere near the picture. It was like a fail-safe mechanism in my brain. And I’m married. But this guy comes along and whammo.

    I have no idea what happened. I guess part of the problem is I grew feelings for him before I realized he was married. It was a misunderstanding. Long story. In any case, it’s made for a real roller coaster over the past few months.

  36. Thank you for all the people who have been posting about being “the other woman.” I really wish there were a way to talk to you all more directly, because I am in the same situation. As has been noted in the above comments, a large part of what makes the role so difficult is not being able to commiserate with friends, and it sometimes seems like the only people who “get it” are those who are in the same boat. So thank you for posting your stories!

    There are two other things that bother me that haven’t been discussed. First, a lot of people – many of the above posters included – seem to assume that “married man having an affair” is a single, homogeneous category. I doubt too many people would assume all “single men in a long term relationship,” for example, are the same. Why should “married man having an affair” be any different?

    Second, people always assume that cheating somehow denotes a stable characteristic: the cheater. But is that really fair? If somebody lies once, are they forever branded “a liar”? No; we tend to recognize that circumstances make lying an acceptable behavior in particular instances (e.g., the white lie). Again, why is cheating any different?

    I’ll offer my answer: we evaluate people who stray from marriages through a moral framework that doesn’t recognize shade of gray. We don’t do the same for “single men in long term relationships” or “people who lie.”

  37. Ok, anyone interested in chatting? I set up a gmail account just to exchange addies once I kinda verify you are who you say you are. Obviously, I don’t need my computer getting fected, so don’t bother sending attachments, I won’t be opening any emails with them. badgirlboredathome

  38. Just came back to read the rest 🙂 I would, wouldn’t I? I am also in the gang of social outcasts if you will. The only thing different about my situation is that I trust that my lover is telling me the truth – and only because I have never had “my wife treats me badly” “you are different” “I will divorce her – soon” etc etc. We were friends first. How we became lovers is another story altogether. But he was upfront about it, long before we became lovers – he cannot, will not leave his wife and children – they have spent years putting up a facade of a ‘happy couple’. His wife is ‘not a bad person’ and they were two ‘reasonably compatible people who grew apart’. I have been with him when she calls, and I have seen the dynamic between them. We have a couple of days a month together, maybe. The rest of the time, phonecalls and emails have to do. I am unhappily married too, and for many reasons, cannot divorce. When we meet, we spend as much time talking, as we do making love – and to me, that says a lot. That he sees me as a person, that there is also an emotional connection.

    Is this the ideal situation? No. I would like to do away with the secrecy. I would love to be with him openly. And whatever happens between us, I will not go and ‘out’ him to his wife. He trusts me. And I do, him. Within the framework of what we have, we have a relationship; we love each other, and wish only the best for each other.

    badgirl, yes, I would love to chat. If only to have someone else understand what it is to be in a situation like this. 🙂

  39. Hey badgirl I just dropped a line to your email to say hello…and to ask if maybe we could start a forum of our own. Exchanging emails would be cool, but it’s also been great to see everyone’s contributions, so a forum might be ideal.

    What do the other Other Women think? Any of you know how to set something up? I’m not so tech-savvy!

  41. Ack…..just checked that place out…no obscenities! Fergit it. I wanna talk about sex and lots of it!! Email me to get invited to my google group 🙂

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