I’m a mostly gay male with a boyfriend who is also mostly gay. We are into BDSM—we are both tops and sometimes play with other sub men. I say we are “mostly” gay because we do like to fuck/top submissive women once in a while. We haven’t done this a lot, and never together because we don’t have the same taste in women—until recently. One of our new neighbors, a straight female, is very shy, but she’s opened up to us about her interest in BDSM. We took her to a play party, and she was okay watching others play, but any time anyone expressed an interest in her, she clammed up and withdrew. She stayed at our side the entire time.
We are interested in propositioning her. Our dilemma is in how to approach someone so gun-shy. We want to seduce her into the experience and not make her uncomfortable, but we can’t agree as to how to go about it. Another issue is that we think the reason she has been so open with us is because she assumes we are both 100 percent gay.
Two Guys And A Girl Toy
She meets two guys who live together, have presumably noisy BDSM sex with each other and other men, and identify themselves as gay. I’m sure you can appreciate why, under the circumstances, your neighbor might assume you two were gay, right? And that assumption convinced her it was safe to open up to you guys about her sexual interests—interests that are clearly scaring the shit out of her for the moment—because she further assumed, entirely reasonably, that you guys didn’t wanna stick your dicks in her.
The sooner you come clean, the likelier you are to get into her pants, mouth, ass, twat, etc. Do not attempt to be seductive. Putting the moves on her now could transform a minor and perhaps unwitting violation of her trust into a relationship-ending violation. Instead, just be, um, straight with her: “We should’ve said something sooner, [her name here], but we’re both actually bi, and we thought you should know that. And we also wanted you to know that we’re both attracted to you and, hey, if you want to explore any of this stuff that you’re curious about with us, we’d be up for that. If not, we’re happy to keep being your kinky, gay-identified, completely platonic buddies.”
I am a single, thirtysomething female who has been having a long-term affair with a married man. We have one rule: We tell one another if and when we fool around with other people. About a year ago, I discovered another affair he was involved in while he was out of the country, which he failed to disclose to me. I discovered it because he left his e-mail unattended. He was not apologetic, and I ended up being the one who begged for forgiveness for invading his privacy. He did, however, promise to end his relationship with the woman overseas. I recently discovered that he has struck up a fresh correspondence with this same woman. I gained this knowledge by invading his privacy again—this time by outright hacking his e-mail—but he also betrayed me, and he needs to be held accountable.
You are probably wondering why I am not just cutting this guy out of my life. We have amazing sex and enjoy the same kinks. It is difficult to find someone trustworthy to engage in these activities with. But how can I trust anything he says anymore? I really want to call him on this. He broke our rules. Do you think I am out of line in confronting him?
Mistress Is Pissed
According to the “Mistress, whining about being cheated on” listing in the Association of American Advice Columnists’ Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Staggeringly Self-Serving Bullshit, I’m supposed to slap the shit out of you, MIP. The DSM instructs me to respond to letters like yours with something like this: “Your lover is cheating on his wife with you, you dumb piece of shit, and you’re shocked to learn that he’s cheating on you, too?” That strikes me as a little harsh. So I’ll go with this instead: You can’t expect a guy to take your rules more seriously than he takes his vows.
As for confronting him: The last time you confronted him about another other-woman, MIP, you wound up begging for his forgiveness. So let’s skip the confrontation and accept reality: Unless you’re willing to walk away from the amazing sex, unless you’re willing to dump the motherfucker, he’s going to go on cheating on you and lying to you about it, rules or no rules. He won’t disclose when he’s messing around with other other-women, MIP, because it’s not just the sex that turns him on. Sneaking around, getting away with it, deceiving you and his wife and his other other-women—all of that gives him a feeling of power and control, and those feelings are as, or more, important to him than the orgasms. Accept it or get out.
I need support under my scrotum in order to ejaculate. I am 52 years old, and this condition has gotten worse as I have gotten older. When I am having intercourse, I need a position that supports or raises my scrotum, and when I masturbate, I need to put something under it. Is this okay? Is there a solution to make coming during intercourse easier?
This Old Scrote
Before I touch on your sack, TOS, I’d like to briefly—very briefly—touch on George Rekers’s. Rekers is a towering figure in the religious right. He’s the cofounder of the Family Research Council; a member of the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, a group that claims it can cure homosexuality; and the go-to guy for “expert” testimony about how gay people threaten and endanger children. And last week, Rekers got busted coming back from a 10-day European vacation with a 20-year-old male escort he found on Rentboy.com. Rekers told two reporters from the Miami New Times that he “can’t lift luggage,” so what other choice did he have but to hire a 20-year-old with an eight-inch cock?
To mark the downfall of yet another crazy and hypocritical closet case, I propose that “whatever floats your boat” be immediately and permanently retired in favor of “whatever lifts your luggage.” This will be George “Rentboy” Rekers’s legacy, his lexi-colonic gift to the English language. Help spread the meme.
Back to you, TOS: First, talk about this with a doc—get your sack examined and your prostate checked. If there’s nothing medically wrong, rest assured there’s nothing wrong. Some guys have large, loose sacks and sensitive balls, and the slap, slap, slap of intercourse or masturbation can be uncomfortable, and lifting your luggage spares you the slap, slap, slap. Alternately, TOS, let’s not forget that your dick, balls, sack, and taint compose one big erogenous zone. Lifting your luggage may provide you with a little bit of extra ball/sack/taint stimulation, added stimulation that helps put you over the top, and naturally you rely on that zap more at 52 than you did at 32. So instead of viewing your need for a ball lift as a problem that needs solving, why not view ball support as the solution to a problem. Or to put it another way…
Whatever lifts your luggage, TOS, whatever lifts your luggage.
good solid advice this week, especially Two Guys And A Girl Toy
How do they know the girl in question is a sub? Maybe she’s a Dom and scared that she wants to hurt people.
The scrotum guy’s question reminds me of that traditional Jewish joke – “Hey Doctor, my elbow hurts when I move it like this.” “So don’t move it like this!”
Whatever it takes!!
My luggage has been lovingly lifted like that for about 50 years.
While lifting my luggage has probably helped me to come over that period of time, it’s certainly lifted my desire to elevate my partners’ liking for what I can do for her to greater heights.
“I propose that “whatever floats your boat” be immediately and permanently retired in favor of “whatever lifts your luggage.”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
Page 1 of 56,000 results:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=whatever+l…
I’d say you did it already. (And did I mention how cute Terry is…??)
To Blah @ # 3
Take me, I’m a sub male (and a part-time cross dresser). I’m not that much into pain, which means I’ll probably scream pretty loud once you really hurt me.
Great advice this week! This is why you’re the best in the biz. Keep up the great work.
What a fantastic column. Best advice ever to MIP. DTMFA already. And on your way out, tell his wife that her husband has been getting his kickstand wet with you and at least one other bitch.
and BTW. If I had any faith in humanity, I’d have lost it after reading your letter, MIP.
MIP is a ridiculous woman who needs to sit in a corner. Is this a trend? Look at that lame porn star who slept with Tiger Woods. She lawyer’d up because her feelings were hurt that he didn’t apologize for going back to his wife(!). What the hell! Isn’t infidelity a sin or atleast act to be ashamed of. When did the third party become the victim?
Jolly good on the outing of Rekers. Now gayness is a little bit closer to being recognized as an unchangeable preference, maybe? Eh??
TOS, I don’t see the problem. Do what you need, in order to get the job done!
I feel bad for MIP. There’s no point hitting her over the head with a stick in regards to the immorality of cheating with a monogamous married man. She already knows all that, and pointing it out to her won’t change her mind.
But somebody needs to be a bit harsh and tell her to wake up! He is willing to cheat on the person he is married to and shares his life with. I’m not going to speculate on the emotional or sexual bond between him and his wife, but you cannot deny that there is a bond, nor can you underestimate it. His wife is his next of kin. She is the one who gets to decide what happens to him in the case of incapacitating illness. She is the one who is responsible for his debts, and whose debts he is responsible for. Even if he’s not in romantic love with his wife, he at least trusts her and likes her enough to keep her in this position in his life. And he’s willing to cheat on her. Why wouldn’t he be willing to cheat on any other woman he sleeps with?
If you are going to keep sleeping with him, accept him for what he is. Don’t be another in a long line of women who lie to themselves about their man, despite the truth staring them in the face.
“Whatever lifts your luggage” is now in my lexicon. I love it!
TOS – I am SURE that someone, somewhere makes a sex toy or some other sort of device that can be worn during sex that will lift your “luggage”. And if not, there’s someone who will make it for you custom.
O, Dan, I am so greatful every time you make me laugh! Your avice to TOS is just great and has such a punch line that I’m still smiling as I write this.
This week’s column is solid, each advice straight (or gay) to the point, nothing important to add. Just a bitching coment for MIP: Ma’am, you are just trying to act as a control freak with your lover. Go on, keep doing it and destroy your affaire AND your marriage at the same time. Deep down, perhaps that’s what you are attempting to do.
Good advice to 2 Guys and a Girl Toy … seduction sounds like it could be *scary* in that situation. She’d probably end up too mortified to speak to either of them again.
Is it really so abnormal to be a little shy at a first play party (RE: two guys and a toy)? She only went to one and she hasn’t known those people long. Were they really expecting her to get tied up by strangers in public after 2 hours in the scene?
@10: The third party is only a victim when he/she is unaware of their third party status. One of my good friends was in a relationship with a guy for 3 friggin years (and she ain’t dumb) before finding out SHE was the piece on the side.
Total seconding of what Dan said & what Brie said to Mistress is Pissed. Don’t be pissed. Rewrite the rules or be willing to leave. You give away too much power when you assume that you won’t find anyone else to play your dirty games w/ you. You will. & maybe they won’t lie to you. You must be 100% willing to leave if this is a make or break issue, but I’d just scale back the guy’s importance, look harder for someone else who flicks yer Bic. Sounds to me like MIP’s lover is seeing other ppl but maybe she is not?
@ 17 I don’t think the gayish neighbors were expecting her to go for it right away, at the play party. They might forget what’s it’s like to be squeaky-new in such a scene.
I would like to add to Dan’s excellent advice to the want to be good neighbors: when you have the conversation Dan suggests above, please don’t have it in your or her apartment or house. Take her out somewhere for lunch. 😉 There’s a disruption of balance of power, telling her something like that over your place, & she might feel weird if you guys drop this news on her at her home as well. I dunno, maybe that’s only my hangup. But I suggest a neutral space for that revelation. I have many gay guy pals, & decent gaydar, so I dunno if this situation could happen to me. But if guys in my life I thought were gay really weren’t & liked me, I’d definitely need a drink w/ that news. OH the things I tell my Gay Boyfriends…
Boffo, Dan.
Mistress is pissed needs to equalize the power relationship. This is not a relationship based on trust. Keep reading the emails and keep it to yourself, get something on him, keep him guessing. You got to get your mind right. “Sneaky, backstabbing bitch with a smile” will get you much further than “good girl done wrong.”
MIP says “But how can I trust anything he says anymore?” Why would you have ever trusted a guy who’s cheating on his wife with you?
Good advice Dan.
I can’t think of anything more pathetic than people like MIP, who whine about being “betrayed” by their married boyfriends. Just incredible.
Oh and how exactly does one keep one’s email “unattended”??
Ooh, good one, Dan. Most advice people would have focused on the “he’s cheating to BE with you” thing without explaining the underlying cause and therefore why he’s not going to change.
Off to work “lifts your luggage” into a manuscript.
Good advice to MIP. It’s amazing how people see what they want to see. She’s obviously in denial about this relationship … thinking she should be able to trust someone who has proven himself untrustworthy. There really is no other bottom line than “accept it or get out”. Pretty simple.
Dan, I’m somewhat disappointed in your advice to TOS. Do you have no site he can go to to shop for a ball sling he can wear? (I would go looking for one myself right now, but I have to go to work.)
It never fails to amaze me when “the other woman” starts to whine about men not being faithful. To be honest, I think it is incredibly fucking stupid.
My step-dad was unfaithful with my mother, and divorce ended the marriage. The woman, or the last woman, he was unfaithful to my mother with ended up marrying him. Many years later, I ran into one of her daughters. She was telling me how my former step-dad had been, wait for it, unfaithful to her mother. All I could say was “No shit?”
I am beginning to think that some women just like the drama and choose men like that on purpose.
@20: You’re actually proposing that MIP transform herself into an obsessive, eavesdropping psychopath? That certainly won’t ‘get her mind right’ as you put it. She’s involved with a married man, and she needs to stop worrying about power and deal with reality. As Dan said, she should either accept the current situation or get out, plain and simple.
Additionally, electronic eavesdropping is a criminal offense…
“While we are extremely disappointed when any Christian leader engages in the very activities that they ‘preach’ against, it is not surprising.” — The Family Research Council
Finally the FRC and I agree on something! Only for that one sentence, but, hey, it’s a start. Take out Christian and replace it with generically religious, political, or just plain leaders.
Also, new twitter meme:
George Rekers and his ilk to bring back “I’m not gay, but my _________ is!” t-shirts. Fill in the blank #hypocriteshirt
Rentboy, bellhop, contracted European holiday companion who provides massages and dinner dates…
MIP knows damn well she can’t trust this guy. If she didn’t know that, then she wouldn’t be repeatedly checking his email looking for evidence.
About Rekers: I read the article that busted him, and it pointed out that he walked out of the terminal PUSHING THE LUGGAGE CART, while his young hireling walked ahead.
Back feeling better?
I didn’t see any other Facebook pages for “Whatever lifts your luggage” so I made one.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Whatever-l…
A woman who has decided to be the side project for a married man CAN NOT TRUST HIM. It’s part of the deal, honey, sorry to tell you. He is by definition untrustworthy. I know this from experience – despite the fact that he tells me one of the things he loves about me is our “honest conversations”. Ha. You mean the conversations we have about how we’ll hook up without your wife finding out?
(And yeah, I’m in 5 years and counting. Yes, I’m a fucking idiot, no need to tell me.)
I didn’t see any other Facebook pages for “Whatever lifts your luggage” so I made one.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Whatever-l…
Oh, how absolutely outstanding is the news on Rekers!!!!
Yay…just yay. I dunno how I missed this!
I wish I had TOS’s problem. I come too damn quick. My wife started fucking other guys because of it. I’d asked her to work through the issue with me, but she just took care of her own needs with no concern for mine. There, I said it. In public, even. But guess what, I’m not using my real name…
As much as I generally agree with DS here, I think he’s being a little hypocritical w/r/t MIP. If I remember correctly, DS has authorized or approved cheating by married men when they aren’t getting laid at all, especially when they’ve discussed it with the wife and nothing’s changed. If married men can sleep around, then they’ve got to with whom to sleep. For all we know, MIP’s married lover is one of those men. She and MIP made a deal to fuck non-exclusively. He lied, she found out. She’s got at least some right to be pissed. Now if MIP’s fuck buddy isn’t cheating on a sexually dead marriage this changes things. But jumping right on the “you deserved it” band wagon without further information was harsh and hypocritical.
TOS’s letter is too perfect for the Rekers scandal! Dan, you would never make up a letter would you? In this case, you might get a pass.
What ever lifts your luggage. That is a great one and I will use it often.LOL………
@1: careful with the amateur “evolutionary” psychology.
MIP’s excuse for getting out of the relationship is just weak. She can’t find anyone else to have sex with, no one else who enjoys the same kinky stuff? She’s single, and in her thirties, and CAN’T FIND ANYONE? That’s bullshit. Hell, I’m in my fifties, and with a little effort, even an old crank like me could find (probably more than one) person to enjoy sex with (as it is, I’m quite happy with the partner I’m with). Nah, she’s just a nitwit, afraid to look at her own B.S.
this old scrote should fuck with a pair of women’s panties on. it’s really hot when my boyfriend wears mine when we do it (i’m a girl). that’s if this old scrote is straight, i guess. most pairs are flimsy enough for him to slip his dick out with ease.
26, I agree completely with the drama speculation. In addition, I think a lot of women who become mistresses do so because it makes them feel like they are special, because they must have something extraordinary about them to make a married man stray. It serves as an odd proof to them than they are “better” than the wife. Truth is the guy is often just an insecure POS looking for power and control and recognizes the other woman’s own insecurities and they play off each other. Though I do recognize that sometimes people stray from a loveless/sexless marriage and stay together for the kids, while having a very loving romantic relationship on the side. Though it doesn’t seem so in this case. MIP sounds like a moron who is just being used.
43 – yep, and the insecure POS somehow knows and feeds on the insecurity of the mistress who is looking for “something special”. It’s codependency at its finest.
@37: Possible, and I mean, fair enough, but I think the onus here is on the letter writer to explain it if that’s the situation.
Sounds to me like TOS may have a weak PC muscle, something to talk about with the doc.
I read the links on google re: the Rekers story.
Dan> was the ‘we tried to change the sexuality of our child’ line a joke or an admittance of total hypocrisy on this issue?
@25, I agree–but all TOS needs to do is google “posing pouch” for a great many sexy support options.
Wow, none of the advice this week made me want to retch. Nice!
maybe the mistress wants to know about her man’s other women because she’s worried about STDs? if she doesn’t care about her man cheating on her but is worried about contracting something then she has every right to know who he is boning.
congratulations, dan. when i was reading this article today : http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/magazi…
i found myself thinking “what a loser” after the first paragraph. i quickly chastised myself for being so judgmental and thought, without thinking about it, “hey man, whatever lifts your luggage.”
mission accomplished.
What 33 said. In total, I’m afraid. The only thing I can add is stop torturing yourself. If reading his emails makes you crazy, stop reading them. You either have to let it go or get out.
Hey science chick,
Right there with ya girl, I sooooooooo hear ya….
Seven years in myself, but dammit, the sex is fucking PHENOM!!!!!!
52, you too? Glad to know I am not the only fallen girl out here….
54, yeah. I’m still new to the whole situation (less than a year) and it definitely has its ups and downs. And like 33 said, I know I’m an idiot. Can’t complain, but it is good to know there are others! In fact, I remember thinking that when I read a comment you wrote a few weeks ago about it.
I know I’m beating a dead horse (whore??) here. But MIP sounds like a sociopath to me. No concern on how her actions affects others. Fucks a married man. Violates his privacy (according to her, passively). Continues to fuck a married man. Violates his privacy AGAIN (this time actively). And wonders if she’ll ever be able to trust him.
He’s a POS. She’s a POS. They probably deserve each other. Reading letters like this makes me want to RUN right out and get a boyfriend….
I just wanted to say that today I have seen the phrase “whatever lifts your luggage” in the comments section of two sites other than Slog.
MIP – You are an idiot. Please never reproduce.
Ugh this MIP shit is so crazy. I have a friend in the same situation – only she’s having POS’ baby in 2 weeks. Been going on 3 years, wife still has no clue, friend is now divorced and waiting for dude that most everyone can see will not come around. And she already has bulletproof evidence that she’s not the only one on the side… and doesn’t care. Got pregnant on purpose after finding that out even. Well, I decided she’s a friend, but I’m still DTMFA. Too much drama and stupidity for me.
This is just a quick comment relating to the podcast where Dan, you said that the guy who could only get hard with his old ugly boyfriend than his new hot boyfriend.
Dan, you said that it was performance anxiety. But I think it could be something else. I’ve also noticed that I’m often attracted to the ugly ones. But it’s not that I’m intimidated by the good looking ones, I think that it’s just my wiring which responds to different types of looks than the culturally agreed on notions of attractiveness.
I am also attracted to the kinds of character strengths which develop in people as a result of not having to rely on looks, so for me, I don’t think it’s about power. It’s about my hormones knowing what they like, my wiring knowing what works, and my eyes being not so onto it. My eyes are the ones which notice what the rest of society notices, which is whether someone is attractive in the conventional model, popular ideas of beauty.
To 33, 52, and 53 — I have to ask, and this is in no way meant to be judgmental, but WHY? I just don’t get the whole mistress role! I’m altogether too selfish to know that someone else always has first claim on a guy I’m devoting my time to. I’ve always wondered what the appeal is, so I’m hoping none of you take offense, because hey, not my husband, not my problem.
@37
Yes and no. While Dan has given authority (even imperative) to married people whose sex lives are unsatisfying to cheat if no other option is available, he never discussed any responsibility the cheater has to the other woman/man.
I don’t think Dan’s position here is “he’s not being a jackass for cheating on MIP, because she’s just the other woman”, I think his point is “morality is irrelevant, the reality is that a man who’s not going to want to be monogamous with his wife isn’t going to be so into you that he gives up all other women as well.” So, yes, it is very much an issue of “if he’ll leave her for you, he’ll leave you for someone else”.
So, it’s not a “you deserved it” in a moralistic “you’re getting your just deserts” kind of thing. It’s more along the lines of “this was completely predictable, and the fact that you signed on for it means you’re getting what you asked for”. If someone is too stupid to recognize “hmm… A guy who’s going to cheat on his wife for me isn’t likely to be exclusive to me, even if he promises to”, is functionally leotarded.
He’s still an ass, but she knew that going into it. You don’t shoot a duck for quacking.
@43
Yes, she wants the fantasy of “I’m so fantastic and wonderful that he can’t resist”, and the idea that he would find a bunch of other women just as infidelity-inducing kills that.
She has to come to grips with the fact that it wasn’t overwhelming desire for her that made him cheat, and that she isn’t any “better” than his wife, or than the other women. Otherwise, she’s going to constantly keep going back to him to reaffirm the delusion that he truly prefers her.
Hugh Grant didn’t really like the prostitute more than Elizabeth Hurley
I guess that a “Lift Your Luggage” t-shirt was totally inevitable! http://www.zazzle.com/lift_your_luggage_…
@TwoGuysAndaGirlToy
Dan nailed it on the head. A few pieces of advice:
Find out *what* her kinks are before you make the admission. There’s no point in trying to seduce/cajole her into joining you, then rushing home to the sight of your “curious” friend wearing a massive strap-on and brandishing a paddle that would make a Catholic school nun flush with envy. Unless, of course, you’re into that sort of thing.
Once her level of kink has been established, the both of you should meet her alone, separate from each other. Feel her out, see if she’s actually *attracted* to either one of you.
Make the admission in a private place, limiting any sort of alcohol/intoxicating substance use. If she’s really interested, it’s better to say it sober. And seeing as how (according to your letter) she’s literally a one-in-a-million catch, the timely application of the, “If it’s you, it’s OK.”, qualifier could be very effective.
With any luck, you’ll soon learn that your mutual object of affection is a yaoi-loving submissive with a penchant for spitroasts and Chinese fingercuffs. However, taking her to a play party on one day, then blurting out your attraction to her on the next may be seen as contrived or *gasp* aggressive. And if you scare her, the last thing you’ll see is her steadily dwindling back as she runs into the sunset.
Whatever lifts your luggage…. damn, I didn’t see it coming til the last line! Fucking brilliant. For the first time since I bought a computer in 1990, I truly did LMFAO.
@31– And now you’re officially caught up with the rest of us. Congrats.
All around very good advice but I’d add a correction for 2guys 1girltoy. I think it would be a very very bad idea for you to come out to her as bi and suggest that you want to bang her all at the same time. She obviously trusts you because you’re non-threateningly gay.
Start by telling her you’re actually bi and let her chew on that new information for a while, maybe a few weeks. After a little while, after she sees you as bi, and still non-threatening, then you can admit that you’re attracted to her and see if she’s interested.
I’d bet anything that something’s happened in her past that makes her nervous about men and that’s why she stuck by her gay protectors at the party. I’d say play this one slow and casual. It would really suck to make things awkward between you and your new neighbor.
Kristen,
Well, good luck with it…you will never find a deeper mindfuck on the planet. The rollercoaster ride is *intense*. Wish there was a way to discreetly exchange emails, because if you are like me, you would probably love to have an understanding ear….most of America are like charming #58…. 😉
Here’s an old Native American fable for MIP: Old woman befriends poisonous snake. One day snake bites her, but before she dies she asks the snake, “Why did you bite me? I thought we were friends? The snake replies, “Look, you knew I was a snake.”
Here’s an old Native American fable for MIP: Old woman befriends poisonous snake. One day snake bites her, but before she dies she asks the snake, “Why did you bite me? I thought we were friends? The snake replies, “Look, you knew I was a snake.”
@68
While @58 was, perhaps, unfair, it is kind of difficult to work up a whole lather of sympathy for a woman complaining about being hurt by a man who is by definition hurtful and unfaithful.
I guess my confusion is how it’s a mindfuck at all. You’re sleeping with a liar and a cheater, is it really a mindfuck when he lies and cheats? I’m not saying it’s a good thing that he isn’t faithful, or that he lies about his level of fidelity to his partner, but you knew that going into the situation.
I’m really not meaning to be insensitive, but I’m honestly completely bewildered. I think the point is that such overwhelming failure to recognize a pattern (if he’s a cheater, he’s a cheater, you’re not special enough to make a cheater exclusive to you) leads some to think that MIP is simply an idiot.
on the advice to the two mostly gay guys and their maybe-wants-to-be kinky neighbor: if they just offer to torture, and NOT fuck her, they’re much more likely to be successful in introducing her to kink. I’ve tortured many lesbian subs (happily, for all concerned), EXACTLY because they knew I wasn’t going to fuck them. Kink obviously is not always or exclusively about fucking people.
71: Actually, you are actually very respectful with your questions and I cen certainly understand why you would ask them! Since you asked with a decent tone, I will try my best to answer. Whereas I certainly can not try to answer for all of the “other women” out there, I can try to tell you a little bit about my particular situation, and why I would probably be hurt if my “cheater cheated”.
We met because we were both unfulfilled in our marriages and wanted sexual satisfaction, but yet did not want to destroy our families. We both wanted something safe, hot and very, very discreet on the side that enabled us to be sexually contented, but yet stay with our children, and yes, even our respective spouses. Believe it or not, we both love our spouses and our families even if we no longer find sexual fulfilment within those bounderies.
As I mentioned previously, I have been seeing my lover for 7 years. What we have has gone from sex, to porn-style fucking, to some actually pretty intense lovemaking. We have grown to know a lot of intimate details about each other, and care about each other a lot. Whereas I know his wife and his family are obviously always #1, I will admit that yes, I would be upset if he had yet another woman besides me for several reasons, because I have come to feel very close to him indeed over the years.
Here are some of my reasons I would feel betrayed:
1. Less time to spend with me….very jealous! If he can get away for a tryst (and its hard because his wife monitors him so closely), I want him to be spending his free time with ME dammit!
2. Obvious health and safety concerns.
3. I would feel like I was not satisfying to him- we have HOT sex, why should he take further risk when he has it so good with me?
4. I don’t think either of us are into the whole “lying and cheating” for the sake of the adventure/getting away with something. We are doing this for the physical pleasure involved, not because we get off on the cheating. We are both TERRIFIED we will get caught and take huge precautions not to. Another person would be another layer of lies for him and more chance of getting caught- to me , to his wife. More risk.
So yes….I admit that it is not 100% logical, but it would greatly hurt me if he had another, but those are my reasons. Based more on emotion than stone cold logic I am afraid….so sue me, I am a woman ;).
Why the hell can’t I meet 2 bi men like that.
@73
And the lack of logic inherent in that, I think, is what bristles the hides of many people here. It’s not so much that we abhor cheating in general (I do, personally, but it’s not my place to judge), as it is that we see a disconnect between the concepts of “he could be unfaithful with someone else, but should be faithful to me”.
Without any more details of MIP’s relationship (not knowing whether the man is in an unfulfilling marriage, has kids, or anything else), the assumption we all have is that he’s just in it for some quick sex on the sly. If she knew that going in (that he was a cheater and a liar, insofar as he lied in his vows), she kind of got what was inevitably coming to her.
I don’t think many people who have read Savage Love for long will believe that it’s always universally possible to find sexual satisfaction within a marriage for eternity (though, some sympathy is lost if you cheated without making a good faith effort to cheat it), and we do understand that sometimes a bit on the side is necessary not to do something more destructive.
I think what it comes down to (on any of your reasons for feeling betrayed) is that while you are perfectly entitled to feel hurt by his decisions, everyone else is entitled to think that you should have seen it coming. I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but.
1. He’s already willing to forgo time with the people who should be most important to him to be with you. It only stands to reason that if he got the chance to have steamy sex with someone else he was even more attracted to/into the same kinks as/is more convenient, he’d take the opportunity
2. Same sort of thing. He’s willing to risk his wife’s safety by being with you, it’s only reasonable to expect him to be just as cavalier about your health and safety
3. Same thing. If he’ll go behind his wife’s back to be with someone more satisfying (you), he’ll go behind your back to be with someone else more satisfying.
4. It doesn’t require that he get off on the cheating, just that he find someone else to be more pleasurable.
I think a lot of it boils down to balking at the mistress fantasy of “I’m special enough that he’ll break his vows to be with me”. It’s all Lady Chatterly’s lover, and it’s unrealistic to a lot of people. If he has so little concern for his vows/promises that he’ll sleep with someone who happens to be “more satisfying”, there’s no reason to expect that he won’t do the same to you when he finds someone more satisfying.
No one is saying he wouldn’t be scum. Everyone is saying that you signed up to sleep with someone who’s scum.
75: Well, again, only to speak on my situation, to justify MY cheating, I actually said point blank to my husband BEFORE I cheated “I am not happy not having orgasms, I am not satisfied. If things don’t change, I am going to cheat.” They didn’t, so I did. Can’t say he wasn’t warned, and I did try to spice things up on my end, but you can’t dance with an unwilling partner.
I am actually going out on a limb here, because there is this huge view of cheaters as morally bankrupt people. I cheat out of sexual desperation. It really isn’t my first choice; I wish my husband sastified me. I wish I met my lover years before I met my husband. Cheating is NOT my first option. However, it is my most palatable option (over divorce or a sexless life). I strive to be a decent human being, but I cheat because I feel backed into a corner; I realize not every cheater is like me (Tiger Woods?), but I would be willing to say there are many in my situation.
Now to address your rebuttals:
1. We tend to see each other when we are either supposed to be working, or his wife is away and his kids are asleep. So we never miss out on family time, the only one who really gets screwed (pun intended) in terms of missing out on our time is our respective bosses.
2. He is not compromising his wife’s safety by being with only me and me alone. I am married and clean…..again….7 years. As long as we are “faithful” to each other and our spouses…well, surely you see how that is safe.
3. Lol…impossible 😉 You will just have to take my word on this *grin*. It truly is mind bending!
4. Again, this goes back to #3.
Strangely, I am confident that he will NEVER top our physical experiences together, EVER. Its just not possible, as we have reached the zenith, and of course it has taken 7 years for us to build up enough trust to let ourselves go and discover how to really get each other off like we do. I don’t value him because he cheats with me, I value him because he can play my bosdy like an instrument, he taught me how to come on his cock from penetration alone, he taught me I can have multiple orgasms……
I don’t think my lover is scum; I mean, he pisses me off a lot!! But not in the way MIP’s man is, and the way you are assuming all cheaters operate. He came to me because his wife almost never gives him sex. He not only misses the feeling of shooting a load in a woman, he loves to please me! Jacking off will never give him the same feeling of having me moan and squirm and tell him how good he makes me feel. He cheats not because he is “scum” as you put it, who likes to fuck around on his wife just because he is a dick, but because he misses this special connection with a woman that his wife denies. Now that he has a woman in his life that he cares for and provides it, why should he go elsewhere, since he really is a pretty decent guy? I don’t think he would have ever cheated either if his wife had stopped denying him sex.
We really only have MIP’s word for what is going on, and the idea that her boyfriend is a POS is Dan’s opinion based solely on what MIP has told him. It probably is true, but we don’t really know why he is cheating on his wife or why he is cheating on MIP. Still, Dan’s advice is correct. She could confront him but walking away is the only way to actually punish him.
I guess everybody out there who is so happy to judge MIP has already forgotten the lesson of “whatever lifts your luggage.” The fact is that people cheat for many reasons; it’s not always immoral when they do; and as long as people aren’t doing it simply as a way to cruelly punish or manipulate someone I think the cheaters deserve the benefit of the doubt.
@76
Scum is, perhaps, a more emotion-invoking word than I should have used. I guess the feeling that anyone who is willing to cheat on his wife (or husband) would also be willing to cheat on the person he’s cheating with comes from similar experiences in dating. If she’ll leave another guy for me, she’ll leave me for another guy.
Yes, if you’re confident that he will never, ever, ever, find someone more perfect than you (see: Lady Chatterly’s Lover Fantasy), you’re probably safe. But, that’s a different issue. Your argument isn’t “he wouldn’t cheat on me like he cheated on his wife because he’s honorable, it’s because I’m awesome enough to keep him”. That, at least, is respectable.
But, let’s assume he does. If he did, it would be because he found someone more desirable. You would have position to complain that he didn’t find you as desirable as you think you should be (which would be met with derision by many people), and that he broke his promise to you (same thing).
As before, my point isn’t that MIP doesn’t have a right to complain, just that everyone else is reasonable to meet her complaints with dismissal and invective.
Obviously we will agree to disagree about whether a guy who would cheat to find “that something special” would be willing to be monogamous to the special someone while double-dealing his wife, but to each their own. My point is that when/if he does cheat, it will be predictable to most people, and thus you will not get the amount of sympathy you would if you hadn’t know he was willing to cheat in the first place.
Infidelity has a lot more impact when you have a cause to anticipate fidelity.
I agree with Stephane and badgirl above — there are situations and circumstances in which cheating is, well, the only MORAL option available to a person who wants to remain sane and committed to whatever other goals in life (family, work) s/he has.
Of course, there ARE also scumbag cheaters who are in this for the power drive, the secrecy, the “James Bond” feeling; that’s the “they-can’t-catch-me!” con artist.
It’s just that these are different people, as different as night and day. (OK, there are intermediate types as well; but that only goes to show that everything is case by case.)
Badgirl, even though I am a quite satisfied man married to a lovely and also (so she says) quite satisfied woman in a monogamous marriage, I can understand your situation very well, because I have a friend — one of the greatest guys I’ve ever met, a man I profoundly admire for many reasons — who is exactly in your situation. His wife has stopped giving him sex, for some reason or other — her libido disappeared faster (she is 8 years older than he is and is now about to hit 50) — and he grew more and more desperate. It took him about five years of suffering before he started cheating — and to this day he does it with many emotional problems. I’m one of two or three people who he trusts with the details of his situation, and I can see both the depth of his love for his wife and the level of desperation that his sexless life had given him. I certainly know he is not a “compulsive cheater” or a “power-is-play” cheater.
And I don’t want to blame his wife. He tells me she suffers too, she tries to give him sex but it just doesn’t turn her on the way it used to anymore, so he feels unfulfilled, she feels unfulfilled, she feels sad for him, he feels sad for her, they try to comfort each other, and nobody gets off. So they reached some sort of don’t-ask-don’t-tell situation in which she pretends she doesn’t know and he does his best to hide any evidence.
I wished life were simpler. Like you, my friend certainly would love it if his wife were to be as passionate as she once was, but she apparently is never going to be again. Such is life.
Seldon,
Thank you again for keeping your tone respectful even when you disagree. I think where the disconnect lies is the fact that you are getting your experience of cheaters from the dating arena as you state above. I would think that those types of cheaters might be more of the “player” variety….the ones who cheat because they get off on the whole cheating scenario.
Perhaps MIP’s man is like this. I am lacking the background information to know. If he is, then I will agree with you, you can’t hang with a player and not expect to get played; that is simply foolish.
However, I would say that there are a different breed of cheaters out there, us “reluctant” cheaters…myself and ankylosaur’s friend would qualify. One of the first indicators of the reluctant cheater would probably be married/children (trapped!). I would submit that our respective lovers *would* be ok in expecting fidelity from us if that was what we had promised each other. Considering the primary purpose of these extra-marital relationships was sexual pleasure, and again, many of them were entered quasi-reluctantly, we should not enter them with a lie about the sex. Unlike other relationships, sex is our primary goal: you must not lie about it, and if the sex becomes less then amazing, why bother? If you find someone you like to fuck better then me, at that point, just end it, I am not your wife.
Odd, but does it make a strange sort of sense if one puts it in this perspective?
As FORMER Empress of the Other Woman Kingdom, (note…former. Former. Former.) this guys is a turd and MIP is wasting her life with him. Hope she gets some therapy and breaks the cycle. Hope she hasn’t been duped into paying the fucker’s bills….
Ah yes, the AAAC’s DSMSSSB; what a great reference!
@80
I think the issue is that most mistresses I’ve ever heard from (or simple “other women”, in the case that the cheater isn’t married) complains that they expected fidelity from the person they were cheating with, and were disappointed. The relationships weren’t usually based on the idea that this is just sex, but on the fantasy that desire for her had overwhelmed him.
There are many different types of cheaters, I accept. And if your point is that a good kind of cheater is one who doesn’t expect fidelity from his other woman, and doesn’t promise fidelity, I agree. But, in the same breath, no other woman should expect fidelity of any order higher than “until this is more trouble than it’s worth, or I get a better deal, I’m yours”.
You seem to be better off than MIP, and if your partner in infidelity were to stray from having strayed (as it were), I think you wouldn’t be the type to try to rally sympathy by claiming he should have shown your relationship more faith than his relationship with his wife (in both cases, a lack of satisfaction from sex, or the offer of more satisfying sex, brought his attention elsewhere). The problem I (and many others, it seems) takes with MIP is that she’s complaining that the most predictable result happened.
Perhaps MIP’s partner should have ended it (it would have been more respectful), but she didn’t have call to expect respect. Besides, it doesn’t take a James-Bond-esque “catch me if you can” thrill of the forbidden to want to make sure that you have hos in different area codes. His actions make perfect sense if we assume he doesn’t have any consideration for the wellbeing of his partners (as MIP should expect), and simply wants to make sure he can always get some wherever he is.
She expected him to act in a way counter to what any evidence of his actions would indicate comes naturally to him. What I’m complaining about is that people are calling him a bad man for hurting her, and treating her like an innocent victim. She signed up to be treated like shit.
@81
If you lie down with pigs, you wake up smelling like livestock.
Why on Earth would MIP think that her MARRIED LOVER would be faithful to her? He is cheating on the one person who he loved enough to marry, loved enough to have a life with, loved enough to perhaps have children with, loved enough to perhaps have a mortgage and car payments with. Loved enough to legally have her as his next of kin and one who can make decisions on his behalf if needed. He loved her enough to be legally responsible for her well being and to love, honor and cherish in front of family, friends and perhaps God. If he could throw all that away to have a LTA with MIP then I think it is VERY safe to say that he could/would cheat on MIP. I do find it shocking that this is in fact shocking news to MIP.
Not sure if someone mentioned it but probably should have credited Language Log:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=…
You homos are all sanctimonious and superior when one of us religious bastions of moral purity gets caught in a sex scandal. I can’t wait until some outspoken homo rights activist gets caught trying to secret his wife and kids through an airport. Maybe the homo will have the sense to have his wife push the luggage cart.
badgirl @68: thanks! I wouldn’t expect an awful lot of understanding from most people; I probably wouldn’t have been very understanding myself, say, two years ago.
You’re right about the mindfuck and the roller coaster. Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to navigate through the twilight zone, so I must admit it helps to hear your very frank perspective.
Seven years seems like an eternity right now! I think I’m just trying to keep it all in perspective and get through today and tomorrow…
speaking of Rekers…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnQZVTAc…
Kristen,
Its no problem. Its a humbling experience. What many people forget is that few grow up WANTING to be cheaters. I sure didn’t; I never foresaw this lifepath for myself. I know my lover is certainly not proud of his actions either. Its tragic in a way- I would love for my friends and family to know this funny and charming man whom I feel so deeply for, yet I must keep him hidden, and I know he is ashamed of not me per se, yet the role I play in his life. He has even said had we met in any other way, we would be the best of friends since we are two sides of the same coin.
So those who are judgemental- well, we suffer enough at our own hands….at least those of us “reluctant cheaters” do, wishing perhaps that things had not gone quite the way they had. But yet not knowing how to resolve them for the greatest good, we continue. It did teach me to have more empathy for others, and more humility. To be less judgemental, since I am so very flawed and far from perfect myself.
Good luck my dear.
badgirl – all your posts. Thanks. Another one in the same situation, well, not entirely – in my case, husband and I had a few problems, which he didn’t want to address. His indifference drove me away. Not into another man’s arms immediately – but much later. I needed the emotional sustenance. And yes, the chap I am with is married too, but has been emotionally (and physically) estranged from his wife for years. We were friends before our shared circumstances brought us closer in ways that are considered morally wrong. And in an ideal world, we could both have ended our previous relationships before we ended up with each other.
Still, divorce is not an option for either of us, and we know and accept that our families will come first for both of us. Being together brings us much happiness, and that can happen only rarely. The rest of the time, well, we talk as often as we can.
I do wish that I had met him before I met my husband. But if wishes were horses …
We are neither of us proud of what we are doing. I go through more than enough guilt, but I am trying to do the best I can under the circumstances. I never thought I would cheat on my husband. But I am not ashamed of my lover, and like you said, I would love to introduce him to my family.
20-year-old? Did you see the pictures?
I can relate to bad girl as well from the mans side. I am still in love with my wife of 37 years but it is pretty hollow. I had an affair 10 years ago after living in a very dull lovelife. Of course the other woman called my wife and I was sentenced to a very long year of trials and counselling.
Now, after trying to reignite some, no, ANY romance into our lovelife I have heard these tidbits: :
” you need to quit trying so hard”
“What we have is fine.”
“do you feel like you still need Viagra?”
“I bet we have more sex than most people our age”.
In Any discussion of our intimacy, she immediately refers to my affair as a default cause of any lack of interest.
So here I am, 57 years old and boy is it OVER
t
@61 Why? For me, for 14 years, because the sex is some of the best I’ve ever had and I don’t have to wash his socks. Because we were good friends and occasional lovers for years before he met his spouse and will be even if they split up. Which will never, ever happen because of me: I don’t want him full time. He’s been talking about leaving her for years because of sexual frustration, but not in the context of leaving her for me. They have no children. I don’t get off on sneaking around and it would be more convenient if he were single because he’d have more time. When I am dating someone I don’t see him; in the four years I was married I didn’t sleep with him. Funny how I can compartmentalize the cheating as something HE does, not me. Make of it what you will.
Love this discussion because it brings a lot more depth than the usual “cheaters are scum and mistresses are homewreckers”. Oy. Anyone who reads Savage EVER should know love and sex are WAY more complicated than that.
I’ve been with my guy off and on for 5 years, like I said. We were both married when we met (I’m divorced now) and were work colleagues for 4 years before anything started. He’d been unfulfilled in his marriage for many years, both sexually and emotionally – she just didn’t connect with him the way he needed despite years of trying.
I can see now that it was the typical “I am the one who he’s always needed and I will save him” dynamic on my side… and since I was new to such things I didn’t see it. Until him I was very strict that married men were OFF LIMITS… but I fell so hard for him and so fast that it didn’t matter. Yeah, the sex was and is great…. but that’s because I’m IN LOVE with him. And he is with me.
He told his wife 3 1/2 years ago, ostensibly because he was going to leave. Didn’t happen. Went back and forth for a year, told me he was leaving, we found an apartment, and then he changed his mind before he moved in. They went to counseling. End of story, he’s staying and she thinks he hasn’t seen me in over 2 years.
So he’s chosen a double life in order to maintain the marriage and family, AND have me on the side. In a fucked up way I think I am one of the reasons he can stay married…. which definitely makes me NOT a home wrecker. I’m under no illusion any longer that we’re riding off into the sunset some day.
So why do I stay? I can’t explain it exactly. Because I do love him… but I don’t trust him. (Also he’s exhibited some stalkerish behavior when I’ve tried to walk away before… which makes it hard to leave). So even though I don’t hope to find anything like the intimacy we’ve built in these years with anyone else, someday I need to get out.
I don’t even know if anyone who hasn’t been in this can even understand how complicated it is. Glad that there are a couple of other people here who get it… even though I’m sorry you have to live with this the way I do.
Luggage needs to know there are clothing solutions to his sex problem. It can include a g-string as well if he enjoys the sensation of ‘suspension’ from behind instead of merely from above. And it can look damn sexy to be balls-tied or strapped up.
As someone facing the double nickles, I have a suggestion for TOS. Although it might seem counter-intuitive, a ball stretcher might help. It lessens the “slap, slap, slap” by moving your balls away from your body, and gives the skin on your dick, and on your taint, a tighter feeling. They come in different lengths, so if you don’t want to get one to overly stretch your sack, you don’t have to. There are some really comfortable ones. Check out the ones in neoprene and silicone on the Mr. S Leathers website under cock and ball toys. As they state on their website, every guy has to have one of these fuckers in their nightstand. If you’re near Chicago, you can check them out at IML over Memorial Day weekend, or check out one of their stores on the west coast.
Dan, don’t you love the way your readers look out for each other?
It’s too bad we don’t all live in the same area (I presume; I don’t live in the US), because I’d love to meet up for a good bitch session with badgirl, science chick, ChameLion, blithespirit, and even SB53 if he felt like coming along.
At least for me, part of the problem with having a secret relationship is that, well, there are so few people in my life with whom I can talk about it. And even the people I can tell haven’t been there, so I can only say so much about the painful bits before they (understandably) say “oh just get out.” Talking about the good parts usually just draws incredulous stares.
Still, it’s good to know that you’re out there, and I’m sorry for the pain you’ve been through. I’m also thankful to Dan, who’s done a brilliant job of providing a forum–with a surprisingly small asshole contingent–for people to talk openly.
I have sex with married men because I am bi but in a married lesbian relationship. I love my wife, and we have good (though infrequent) sex, but she knows I’m bi and I need het sex now and again. So we have an agreement. I can sleep with men, not get into a full-fledged relationship with them, so married men are safer for me. Other women are totally off limits.
I have met some very nice men and have some wild sex but one thing I do not do is expect them to be “faithful” to me, any more than I am “faithful” to them. I don’t believe in the whole monogamy thing anyway. And from my experience, very few men do. I tell them about my other relationships and they tell me about theirs sometimes. (Depends on the guy.) It can be very arousing. It also takes the pressure off them to pretend they are somehow faithful to me. We’re in it for sexual fun, period. If we click in other ways and can be friends, great. But that’s where it stops.
If you’re going to play this game, you have to do it with a realistic attitude.
And by the way, all those married women out there who think they can keep a man faithful despite a lousy, boring or non-existent sex life are deluding themselves. Put out or shut up and let him live a little and meet his needs with someone who loves sex and lets him know it.
Kristen, that is exactly my problem, that I cannot talk about it to anybody. It is good to know there are others out there, though, even though we all seem to be going through some amount of guilt and pain.
I have come to the conclusion based on my own experience that you can never say what is going on within a relationship, unless you are a part of it.
Kristen, that is exactly my problem, that I cannot talk about it to anybody. It is good to know there are others out there, though, even though we all seem to be going through some amount of guilt and pain.
I have come to the conclusion based on my own experience that you can never say what is going on within a relationship, unless you are a part of it.
Kristen, that is exactly my problem, that I cannot talk about it to anybody. It is good to know there are others out there, though, even though we all seem to be going through some amount of guilt and pain.
I have come to the conclusion based on my own experience that you can never say what is going on within a relationship, unless you are a part of it.
“You can’t expect a guy to take your rules more seriously than he takes his vows.” A most appropriate comment when someone is involved w/a Roman Catholic priest. NOT doing that again!
And I have no idea how my previous comment got posted thrice. Sorry.
“Whatever lifts your luggage.” I like that one.
After the whole Larry Craig incident, I still say “I have to go use the craig” (in place of the “john”) when I’m at the airport.
Simple solution. Dan: scrotal suspensory. Doesn’t interfere with sex and can still be fondled. Where were you on this one !
Kristen, geminigirl….
EXACTLY!!! How I wish I could hang out with my girlfriends and TALK about my “boyfriend” for hours over a bottle of wine like I used to for hours when I was single! Gloat and moon over him when things were going well, cry when we hit a rough patch….I think that is one of the hardest things about it is the isolation that being the other woman entails.
There is no sympathy for the mistress- for most of society, we are simply “homewrecking whores”
Oh and science chick? I am ironically laughing at your comment about how you help your man stay married; I think my lover helps me stay married too! We are each others release valve. Plus, I know if I got divorced, I would have to give him up too. It would just be far too painful to have him go home to his wife and me go home to no one, that I would have to end it due to my increased jealousy, and since I can not bear the thought of giving HIM up, I stay married too…
So I so get your “it definitely makes me NOT a home wrecker” comment!
Well Dan has written at length about how some cheaters aren’t scum, they have perfectly moral reasons for doing so. Why shouldn’t MIP feel cheated and lied to if the guy proclaimed to be one of those people, and in the end it turns out he really was just a POS? I think its justifiable to confront him, while dumping him.
Because what MIP wants is a trustworthy guy to share her kinks with. That simply isn’t going to happen with this guy. You can’t confront your way into making him the right guy for you. He’s a POS, get over it and find someone else. A kinky woman shouldn’t have a problem doing that, they’re in high demand compared to kinky guys.
I despise the word “taint” and am disappointed that Dan used it. I hope I won’t see it too often.
My, such prissiness about the marriage vows. The mistress can simply have sex with other people and not tell this guy. He’s not telling her, it’s only fair that she doesn’t have to tell him.
But, of course, the reason she and he even made the dumb rule about telling each other if they have sex with other partners is to remind themselves that ‘open relationships’, as well as ‘open marriages’ carry the risk of STDs. One might be lulled into a false sense of security if not for the knowledge that dicks are being dipped into other places.
Some of you seem to be confused about the agreement that MIP has with her lover. She isn’t upset because he’s being unfaithful; she’s upset because they agreed to tell each other about the other-other people they slept with.
So she is not quite as oblivious as you are making her out to be.
I think Dan’s nailed it though – the secrecy is a part of his turn-on, and she will have to decide how important it is for her to have knowledge of everyone he sticks his dick into.
Excellent advice this week Dan!
I keep on lovin’ your column!
To the mistresses: just because he says they have little or no sex, doesn’t mean it’s true. Don’t assume he has had a serious conversation with his wife about how their sex isn’t meeting his needs and how he might look elsewhere. Do your married guys really strike you as the type to start these difficult, painful conversations with their wives? Or more the type to assume it wouldn’t do any good, and so they are free to look outside the marriage for extra sex. I suggest you look at Claire59 @98’s comment that she “takes the pressure off them to pretend they are somehow faithful to me.” Why don’t you try encouraging them to see other women, and see if that reveals another side to them. As long as the two of you claim to be monogamous with each other, you’ll never know the truth about his sex life.
I mean, look at how sb53 describes his year of counseling: “sentenced to a very long year of trials and counselling.” No reflection on how he and his wife could have used counseling to figure out *together* how to rebuild excitement in their 37 year marriage. Instead, he just blames his wife, and the mistress who called her, and acts as if whatever effort he puts in ought to be enough to reignite his wife’s sexual affections.
Another side of the coin is whether married guy is telling the truth or not about his home life, if he and the Mistress have an understanding, ie. this is about sex and companionship, he has been clear he isn’t leaving his wife, mistress proceeds with the affair under that agreement, and then she contacts his wife? Not cool either.
Every individual circumstance is it’s own. I have empathy for kristen, badgirl et al., but I think what they are saying is that they are not homewreckers. There are asshole men (and women) in cheating circumstances, but lots of men involved in these situations would probably tell similar stories about dealing with guilt etc. as these ladies have done. They are in a unique set of circumstances, as everyone is. Damn hard to see it from the outside and understand.
Even if a woman doesn’t think she is being a homewrecker, if her married boyfriend turns out to be a cheating scumbag on her too, she can’t whine to her girlfriends about the situation because she gets no sympathy. I think the reason for that isn’t because you don’t have a right to feel betrayed or cheated on. Its just that, this is the OLDEST oldest oldest story in the book. We all KNOW married men never leave their wives and the mistresses are being played for fools, and then you think your situation is totally different, even though its the same exact story that happened to every other mistress who ever existed. They thought their man was unhappy and trapped and wouldn’t have cheated on their wives if the marriage had been to them, and eventually it comes out the guy is full of shit, seeing other women too and the wife doesn’t even make him that unhappy. Having sympathy for this situation is kinda like having sympathy for someone who falls for a nigerian email scam. Its just too well-known, its unbelievably stupid to think that you were any different.
And when you can only see your boyfriend in limited fashion during some work hours and when the spouse is out of town, you aren’t seeing him much at all and you don’t even know the tip of the iceberg as to how many other women he’s seeing. Its sad to still see piles of women deluding themselves over these notions.
Ah yet again excellent comments. Glad I came back to check. Yes, ladies, when we find each other (we “other women”) it’s really a relief and it would be great to spend some time in a bitch session. I have a friend in Chicago that I’ve never met in person, only on line because she read some blog postings I did on the subject. We’ve supported each other through a lot – and it’s hard. Society is ganged up on us without knowing ANYTHING about the situation.
EricaP – I realize that anything he tells me about her is suspect. I know if I tell him I would rather he only has sex with me, that I can’t verify it (although I have some evidence that that’s the case). I do know that he tried to start the conversation many times with her and the only way he got her attention was to tell her he’d been having an affair. That eventually got them into counseling but it took a year and a half, during which all she wanted was for me to go away but didn’t want to go to counseling about what the problems are.
So as far as I am concerned, the two people that fucked that marriage up are them, not me and him. It was circling the drain long before I came along. And I really hate, in some ways, that I was the thing that finally got them to talk to each other. (On the other hand, he lied to her in counseling about our relationship, and continues to lie to her about me, so it’s hard to imagine that it’s gonna last for the long haul… then again, stranger things have happened, right?)
BTR – trust me, I’ve thought many times about letting her know what’s happening, but it doesn’t seem like the right thing to do. I guess she deserves to know, but I’m not the right person to tell her. That would cause a LOT of bad shit to happen.
And… the reason we can’t talk to anyone is that so many people are like Karey. Yeah, I see him in a limited fashion. So what? Would I like to have a more normal relationship with him? Sure. Do I wonder if he sees other women when he’s out of town (he actually lives and works in another state during the week and comes homes on weekends)? Sure. But how is that different from any other long term relationship?
It may be an old story. So what? Don’t pass judgment just because you only see part of the situation and you feel like being judgy.
Great column as usual!
MIP sounds like a troll, though, I have to say. Not that nobody would be that…um…oblivious…(trying to be nice here) but really, she didn’t even ask a question. Just blurted out her issues like they were really that interesting…I blame reality tv.
Science chick, I’m still wondering, how do you know their marriage is fucked up? Any more than anyone else’s relationship is fucked up, that is. I mean, he’s still with her. And maybe they’re still fucking like rabbits. How do you know that “he tried to start the conversation many times with her,” how do you know she didn’t take the counseling seriously? I mean, you don’t have to care about her or him or their marriage, but since he is clearly willing to lie to her (as my husband was willing to lie to me (and, truth be told, as I was willing to lie to a former boyfriend when I last had an affair)), how do you know that he’s not constantly lying to you too? As the wife, I have chosen to live with the fact that he may still be lying to me even though he says he’s not. But at least I’m not lying to myself anymore, thinking that I’ll be able to tell his truth from his lies. Either my life is good enough for me to stay (it is, and, yes, our sex life rocks), or else it isn’t. I’m trying to take Claire59’s advice to heart: don’t make them pretend to be monogamous. Then you might get the truth. Or not.
Erica, I don’t understand your question. As the wife you have chosen to stay in a situation that you understand may not be entirely honest, because it works for you. Why should science chick be held to a different standard? If she understands her situation and is willing to be in it, why does it matter? I hate to repeat, but every situation is different, and can only be understood from the inside. We all (men and women involved in affairs) understand our own motivations/rationalizations and have to live with them. It doesn’t sound to me like the women in these situations (in comments, anyways) are asking for help. Sounds like they are asking for understanding and the ability to go about their lives without being judged and attacked.
EricaP: Hopefully I can address your comments.
About having the conversation with his wife about lack of sex/ being unsatisfied…lol! You are correct there, I bet you dollars to donuts he didn’t speak to her about it! Is this fair to her? No. But that being said, having been in “their” lives for 7 years know, I almost “know” her by proxy; I admit my feelings for her are tainted by jealousy and by the fact I don’t really know her. But I have been there for MANY a phone call and I hear his end, and the woman is a shrew. She found his porn collection and threw it away- she is not ok with porn. In thier 10 years together, she has never even seen him masturbate, much less acknowledge it. I am his friend on facebook, as well as being over his house frequently and I have seen beginning of the marriage vs. recent pictures, and lets just say the 80+ pounds isn’t flattering. As a woman, I realize what extra weight can do to self confidence and libido, so all of this leads me to beleive he is telling the truth about his lack of sex life at home. I also that he does love her and values his family tremendously, so as fucked up as it sounds, wants to keep the peace at home, so he does NOT mention her weight gain (hes packed on a few himself, lol) or fight about sex *anymore*. Since I realize how many tears this involves (I have had these fight myself!), I can sooooooo appreciate this perspective, and sometimes after so many fights and hurt feelings, one opts for domestic tranquility and getting your animal needs met elsewhere.
BTR: Man, I sooooooo agree with you! Everytime one of those homewrecking, fame-grubbing whores (ala Jesse James tattooed bitch or Ryelle Hunter) goes public, I want to VOMIT! I am like it CAN be done, you asshole men just chose the wrong women; hell look at the two I mentioned. You could tell those two dolts couldn’t handle it the minute the opened their airheaded mouths. Poor Sandra :(. I would NEVER do that to not only my lover, but his two children, no matter what happened between us. How could I hurt those innocent kids?
Oh and science chick, I would SOOOO love to read your blog if it is a public/anon. one and you are ok posting it here.
Great Op-Ed by Frank Rich about George Rekers in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/opinio…
Who is this ‘expert’? And why does he have so much sway regarding public policy? (((scratches head)))
I don’t see it as just about wanting to go about without feeling attacked. They are missing the ability to gab and commiserate to their friends about being mistreated when the boyfriend is a dick, as if this were any other boyfriend. My personal guess as to why they don’t get this is because we just don’t have sympathy for things like people falling for nigerian email scams. Not judging the morals of anyone involved. Someone who’s been betrayed has every right to be hurt by it and the mistresses aren’t the ones doing any cheating. Its just, how are friends supposed to react when you should really know better? Married men have been saying, ‘oh but its different with you’ since the beginning of time. It takes a special breed to believe it at this point.
I don’t know what kind of friends you all have but even in regular relationships, if I keep going back to a guy who’s mistreated me before my friends stop being understanding about that too. Because these are known quantities and its your choice, at some point you can’t complain about how the other person is treating you when you’ve signed up for it. And what you’ve signed up for is the cliche affair with a married man. The descriptions I’ve read here are a checklist of regularly scheduled events in this kind of affair.
BTR, I’m not telling the mistresses they have to get out. I just get riled up by them claiming to understand their lover’s marriage. I doubt it. I won’t pretend to understand the relationship they have with their lovers, but I’d appreciate it if they’d stop ragging on how the wife in their story isn’t treating the husband well and is all sex-negative. I guess they believe what they believe, but my perspective is that a wife can be as GGG as all get-out, and it doesn’t keep a husband from straying. I’m not complaining about my situation, I just don’t like seeing mistresses justifying their lovers’ actions based on the wives’ supposed deficiencies. It’s not always the way he tells it.
Can’t argue your points Karey. Cliches are cliches because that is the way it usually goes. But if two adults are doing something that they think makes their lives better and minimizes the hurt to their families, and they are willing to put up with the bad parts because the good parts are so good, then that is their choice. It sucks that we can’t introduce the other person to friends and family, but the time we spend with them is worth it. Doesn’t mean we have to like it, but it is the choice we make. I didn’t hear anyone asking for sympathy, they know what they are in the middle of.
Good to have a forum for others to understand the dynamics so a) they know what they are getting into, b) they don’t feel so alone, c) they can talk about it with others, and d) maybe someone who was cheated on can see some of the other side. It isn’t all about trying to hurt someone you love. It might be about hurting them less and getting through the day yourself. Again, every situation has it’s own circumstances that can’t be judged by those not involved.
Geez, I kind of wonder how hawt these almost gay guys are. It’s sort of a fantasy of mine to get used by a couple of almost gay men…*fans self*
I DON’T know that he’s telling me the truth. I’m not that naive, whatever I am, it’s not that. But as someone else said above – I have enough empirical evidence to believe that he tried a couple of times to get through to her and it didn’t work. I do now believe that things were NEVER as bad as he led me to believe at the beginning… I just think it’s one of those marriages where the passion went away a LONG time ago, that they developed really fucked up ways of communicating (ie, neither one fights fair), etc etc. And for him, having his marriage stay intact so he doesn’t lose his kids, money, social standing, etc. is worth it – as long as he still has me too.
Maybe this will sound familiar to some of my sisters – I just got arrested for DWI last week and have to go to court next week (another long fucked up story. Anyway…) He offered to go with me, drive me there because when I’m done with that hearing I won’t have a license. Which I thought sounded very sweet until I thought about it and realized I don’t trust him to actually show up. That if she calls and wants him to go pick up a kid at baseball practice or something… that’s what he will do. That he’s made so many promises to me that he hasn’t kept, from “I’ll come by tonight” all the way to “I’m divorcing her, let’s get an apartment together”… that he hasn’t kept. The only way I can stay in this, is to believe nothing he says until it happens.. and have a backup plan, if it’s important. So I told him I didn’t want him to go. Boy, did he hate being told he was unreliable! But that’s just it – if I trust him, I’m being foolish.
(As to my blog – I took down my posts awhile ago because the site I had them on was getting a little hostile with the comments. Otherwise, I would have been happy to post the link.)
Karey, I don’t think any of us “mistresses” denies anything you say. I think we all pretty much said up front that we know we’re being stupid to some extent. But it’s not because we’re a “special breed” who believes the man who says “it’s different with you.” Ok, maybe MIP is still learning that lesson, but science chick, badgirl, et. al. don’t seem to have too many illusions.
Neither do I. I’m still relatively new to the situation, and I haven’t encouraged much discussion with my lover about his relationship with his wife (haven’t discouraged it either, just don’t bring it up). I have to assume whatever he says about it–or about any other relationship-related topic–is suspect. I leave it at that and don’t go looking for evidence or asking questions when I’m fairly certain I can’t trust the answers. That, in my view, can only be a mindfuck.
That’s why my first comment here, to MIP, was to stop reading the guy’s email: If you want to be deluded, be deluded. Otherwise, wake up and accept your situation for what it is.
For me, it’s comforting to hear from badgirl and science chick because they understand the ups and downs of the situation. They have insight that my other friends don’t. I guess it’s just a human need to normalize things a bit, to feel that your experience fits into some larger context and that you’re not alone.
Perhaps there are support groups for victims of Nigerian email scams too, and I wouldn’t begrudge those poor souls any comfort that they might take from talking to each other.
Others can stand on the sidelines, shaking their fingers and being smug, but what good does that do?
I have a group of wives/mommies I can complain to who are always sympathetic when my hubby/kids are annoying the hell out of me….the complaints are repetitive and (dare I say) cliche. All’s I am looking to do is vent- hubby is inconsiderate, messy, etc; kids are driving me batshit crazy. Sometimes it just helps to vent so I can get it off my chest and appreciate the good things I have about my family- which I do, in abundance! My husband is actually a GREAT guy….just…we are mismatched in the passion department. It is NICE to feel not so alone like Kristen said, ESPECIALLY in the case of being the other woman, when all of society is against you, and even YOU realize that you are doing something that is less than ideal.
Sure the dreamy teen in me fantasizes about running away with my lover because my happiness reaches my zenith when I am with him. But, reality decends. Two families would be shattered. Plus, would the sex remain as hot if I could have it any time I wanted? Who knows, perhaps the reason it is so exquisitly delisicious is that I only get it once or twice a week. And, he is in a field that has been crushed by the economy, and been through 5 jobs in the 7 years I have known him, and unemployed for the past year….I could not deal with that stress.
In the case of my lover “cheating” on me….again, HIGHLY doubtful, but that is just because of my own unique situation. Wifey keeps SO close tabs on him; he needs to account for his whereabouts at every second of the day; ironically- he has less freedom now then he did when he had a job since he is at her beck and call! The only place we can meet up is his house in case she calls, and there is NO WAY he would bring a stranger there, or someone he had less then a super secure relationship with. We met pre-kids, and established trust before he was a family man. He knows I won’t boil his bunny *grin*.
Loved your last post, science chick, though I’m sorry you have this awful situation (DWI hearing) to deal with. But what you say about trust rang so true to me. I’m grateful that my husband is very reliable in his daily life promises (he’ll show up if it’s important to me). That does help me put up with the fact that I have less confidence I can trust him sexually. For me, this all blew up this year, and he thinks I should trust him again already — because hey, he is telling me the truth, he says. That was just a one-time thing. But even one time (that I know of), it still undermined my confidence that I could trust him and that I’d know if he were lying. (Yes, I used to think that.) So now I just try not to rely too much on his fidelity. He hates hearing that, just like science chick’s lover hated being told he was unreliable. But sometimes they need to hear the truth – to help them see who they are.
First time here, and new listener to DS podcast. The posts of the OW and cheating are riveting! I love all the information others are willing to share about this subject. I am, for the first time in my life involved with a married man. “No married men” was my credo! The original poster and some of these other women (not to be disrespectful) are really hoping to be with the married guy when they divorce their wives. Therefore, they might be expecting more than they should. Chamelion seems to be closer to my situation.
For 5 years I didn’t date, or have sex, after a 14 year marriage. Ugh! Hard to admit.
I felt like I never chose the right person. My “picker” was broken.
I have had many opportunities to “date” married men, but I never was attracted to men that were involved. Liars and cheaters will always lie and cheat.
Then last year, a person contacted me thru a website that I knew in 8th grade. He moved 1.5 years later and I never saw him again. He was cute, and I had a summer crush on him.
We would converse via IM for months. It was our 40th high school reunion. (he graduated from another high school). I’m a playful person. I may have flirted, but without motive. He told me he was married. What did I care, I wasn’t going to meet him again. He lived in another city.
Then the next boundary was broken. Sex Chat. Okay, I thought, this is harmless. Then he wanted to come visit me. I freaked out.
Okay, I crossed the line. He came to visit me. He stayed at my home. I prepared him to be thrown out, if I go weird. We have fun. He doesn’t want to leave his wife of a million years, I know. And I don’t want to do his laundry. Perfect for me. Now I had a chance to have great sex. (my marriage sucked, especially with sex). I hadn’t had sex for so long, and this seemed perfect for me. Well,
here I am, almost one year into this. He’s visited me at my home, and brought me to a ski resort to be with him, and now wants me to come and stay at his home while his wife is away for 3 weeks.
For me, I understand he is a liar and cheater. With his wife, and probably with me, tho he uses those words “trust me”. I don’t. Now, I feel like he is really disrespecting his wife by inviting me to his home.
I don’t ask about his wife, or their relationship. I don’t want to know, nor do I want him to lie to me, some more.
I’m not that special. I know this. He says differently, but I know the lover’s place. I know he could have contacted another 8th grade schoolmate, and he has, but nothing came of it. I took the bait. That is fine for me.
I never expect anything from this person. Well, that’s wrong. He tends to call me every weekday when he is driving home from work. We chat every weekend. I won’t respond to his emails when I know he is on vacation, with his wife. I have come to expect contact, kinda often.
But, funny, somehow, I do expect for him to respect my health. If he does see other women, he should protect himself. From me or the other ladies. Whatever. This is an important thing to me. Put the fucking “raincoat” on for Crisssakes.
Now, as other women, we are also betting the wife isn’t cheating as well. We are in bed with their wives too, ya know.
Okay, I am finally having sex, and really fabulous sex at that, for the first time, in ????? (before marriage).
So me: I am having sex with a man that isn’t available, and lives over 8 hours away. (we tend to see each other every other month for at least 4 days). This is his responsibility: our meetings.
I hope he never leaves his wife. (he could be too selfish: community property state; no kids, or, like other people here say, he still loves his wife, but isn’t getting any).
Very interesting. For some to be involved for 5-7 years, and aren’t 58 years old, I wonder what they expect?
Justastart:
Thanks for sharing your story! And really, its fascinating, because even though we all have something in common and can be respectful and empathetic towards each others plight as the other woman, I think there are also moments that despite this common bond we go “how can she do *that*?” You question what do we hope to get out of that (those of us who have been into it for the long haul). My answer: AMAZING, earth shattering sex! I never get to see my lover for extended periods of time like you do, but I do get to see him roughly once a week- we live about 20 minutes from each other.
We all have things that we can’t handle. For example, my limit would be, I could not do the other woman routine if I were single. This would simply be too heart breaking for me. I actually hate that I have developed feelings for my lover: we started out as supplimental fuck buddies, and I actually curse my stupid female, cliche feelings that arose! Dammit.
I have really enjoyed talking to all of you ladies (and guys too!). I have even thought about setting up a web email address to post to see if any of you would care to write….
I have enjoyed everyone’s perspective also badgirl. You are bang on the point. Fuckbuddies are a great idea, but once you start developing feelings, it brings a whole set of issues. The problem is, once the feelings come along, when the sex is so great, it is hard to put the brakes on and get out before the feelings take over. Hope things keep working out for you.
Badgirl, you know I’d write! Was trying to think of a way for the OWs (for lack of a better term) to get in touch. Hearing your stories has been therapeutic, but I’m afraid to post too much here–personal paranoia, I suppose.
And Justatart, you sound a lot like me. Never before attracted to men who had other women in or anywhere near the picture. It was like a fail-safe mechanism in my brain. And I’m married. But this guy comes along and whammo.
I have no idea what happened. I guess part of the problem is I grew feelings for him before I realized he was married. It was a misunderstanding. Long story. In any case, it’s made for a real roller coaster over the past few months.
Thank you for all the people who have been posting about being “the other woman.” I really wish there were a way to talk to you all more directly, because I am in the same situation. As has been noted in the above comments, a large part of what makes the role so difficult is not being able to commiserate with friends, and it sometimes seems like the only people who “get it” are those who are in the same boat. So thank you for posting your stories!
There are two other things that bother me that haven’t been discussed. First, a lot of people – many of the above posters included – seem to assume that “married man having an affair” is a single, homogeneous category. I doubt too many people would assume all “single men in a long term relationship,” for example, are the same. Why should “married man having an affair” be any different?
Second, people always assume that cheating somehow denotes a stable characteristic: the cheater. But is that really fair? If somebody lies once, are they forever branded “a liar”? No; we tend to recognize that circumstances make lying an acceptable behavior in particular instances (e.g., the white lie). Again, why is cheating any different?
I’ll offer my answer: we evaluate people who stray from marriages through a moral framework that doesn’t recognize shade of gray. We don’t do the same for “single men in long term relationships” or “people who lie.”
Ok, anyone interested in chatting? I set up a gmail account just to exchange addies once I kinda verify you are who you say you are. Obviously, I don’t need my computer getting fected, so don’t bother sending attachments, I won’t be opening any emails with them. badgirlboredathome
Just came back to read the rest 🙂 I would, wouldn’t I? I am also in the gang of social outcasts if you will. The only thing different about my situation is that I trust that my lover is telling me the truth – and only because I have never had “my wife treats me badly” “you are different” “I will divorce her – soon” etc etc. We were friends first. How we became lovers is another story altogether. But he was upfront about it, long before we became lovers – he cannot, will not leave his wife and children – they have spent years putting up a facade of a ‘happy couple’. His wife is ‘not a bad person’ and they were two ‘reasonably compatible people who grew apart’. I have been with him when she calls, and I have seen the dynamic between them. We have a couple of days a month together, maybe. The rest of the time, phonecalls and emails have to do. I am unhappily married too, and for many reasons, cannot divorce. When we meet, we spend as much time talking, as we do making love – and to me, that says a lot. That he sees me as a person, that there is also an emotional connection.
Is this the ideal situation? No. I would like to do away with the secrecy. I would love to be with him openly. And whatever happens between us, I will not go and ‘out’ him to his wife. He trusts me. And I do, him. Within the framework of what we have, we have a relationship; we love each other, and wish only the best for each other.
badgirl, yes, I would love to chat. If only to have someone else understand what it is to be in a situation like this. 🙂
Hey badgirl I just dropped a line to your email to say hello…and to ask if maybe we could start a forum of our own. Exchanging emails would be cool, but it’s also been great to see everyone’s contributions, so a forum might be ideal.
What do the other Other Women think? Any of you know how to set something up? I’m not so tech-savvy!
Righteous….thanks for the wicked idea Kristen.
Check us fallen people out:
theothers.boardspace.org
I am the moderator, so feel free to email me at the above address with any questions/concerns or just to say hi. Hope to see you there!
Ack…..just checked that place out…no obscenities! Fergit it. I wanna talk about sex and lots of it!! Email me to get invited to my google group 🙂
http://groups.google.com/group/themarrie…