I am a married white guy in my 50s. My wife and I do some role-playing where I am “Ted,” her real-life father. In her script, I yell at my “bad daughter” (my wife) over some infraction and send her to her room. Later on, I sneak in and tell her that she could “make Daddy very happy” if we were to do some “secret, special things” together. I usually end up fingering her still-virginal butt while “forcing” her to suck my dick. Then I roll her over and rape the hell out of her.
I’m being GGG, and she absolutely gets off on it. We’ve done this scene a few times, with increasing frequency, following her script every time. I do have some concerns, Dan: (1) It’s creepy, and (2) I’m worried that this might all be “based on a true story.”
What to do? Keep a good thing going or confront her about her father? I’m going to feel like an idiot if it’s all just a harmless fantasy.
Concerned “Father”
What if it is based on a true story?
Let’s suppose your wife was raped by her actual father and—after years of processing the abuse and the trauma—she emerged happy and healthy and stable, but… saddled with an all-consuming, high-creep-quotient incest role-play fetish. Your wife isn’t alone: A small handful of rape victims develop fantasies about rape role-play scenarios, an even smaller number of Holocaust survivors developed Nazi role-play fantasies.
Sometimes our erotic imaginations are as inexplicable as they are powerful.
Now let’s suppose that your wife is healthy enough emotionally and sexually to safely explore these deeply creepy fantasies—because now she’s in complete control, because now she’s with someone she loves and trusts—and that she isn’t traumatized by reenacting these deeply creepy scenes from her childhood. Shouldn’t she have just as much a right to enjoy and explore her sexuality as any other person, CF, regardless of the forces that shaped it?
I’d say the answer to that question is yes.
All that said, CF, you have a right to ask pointed questions—particularly if “Ted” is still alive and you have to sit next to him at Thanksgiving—and she has a responsibility to come through with detailed, honest answers. You’re not some casual up-for-anything stranger your wife recruited online. You’re her husband, and you have a right to know just what sort of land mines you’re stomping on or around, even if your wife considers them defused and harmless. Because there are huge potential consequences for you—emotional and sexual—if your wife is being traumatized by the role-play games she’s asked you to participate in.
And, finally, here’s hoping it’s all just a fantasy and that your wife wasn’t raped by her father, CF, although that isn’t going to make her fantasies any less creepy or Thanksgiving dinner with Ted any less awkward.
I’m a 23-year-old, single gay man. One of my siblings (with whom I was close) passed away about a month ago. I want to start dating again, but I’m not sure how to tell if I am or when I will be ready. I don’t want to be unloading my issues on potential first dates (that’s why I’m starting to see a therapist), but during the getting-to-know-you small talk, siblings always seem to come up. How do I handle this without seeming unmoved by my sibling’s death and without scaring off the other guy?
Trying To Move Forward
While you don’t want to burden a potential new boyfriend (PNB) with the full weight of your grief, TTMF, the only PNBs you’ll scare off by mentioning your grief are PNBs with empty lube bottles where their hearts should be—that is, PNBs with no potential, PNBs you should be anxious to be rid of.
So when the sibling talk comes up, TTMF, mention your recently deceased sibling, accept your PNB’s condolences, and then change the subject. What that communicates about you, PNB-wise, is this: You’ve been touched by grief recently, but you’re not paralyzed by it, and you’re ready to date.
And I’m so sorry for your loss, TTMF.
Please help me. I can no longer stand the thought of having sex with my fiancé. He’s a great guy—very kind and good. The problem is the sounds he makes during sex. Little whiny girl sounds. Like, not even woman sounds—which, being attracted to men, would be a big enough problem for me. No, he makes noises like a tiny little baby kitten girl. It has gotten really bad. I avoid sex (we usually don’t even sleep in the same bed, although we live together). When we do have sex, I spend the first half dreading the moment the girlie sighs start and the second half trying to ignore them. So, basically, I’m checked out for both halves—which he notices and obviously doesn’t like.
I know this sounds trivial, and it wasn’t such a big problem for the first year of our relationship. But it has grown from small annoyance to giant grating huge turnoff. I don’t know how to tell him to stop. I have brought it up before, but it sounds so stupid, and then he gets self-conscious and I feel bad. I can’t marry him under these circumstances, though. What do I do?
Ears Plugged
Your great and good fiancé deserves the truth. And come on, EP, what do you think is going to make him feel worse: you leveling with him about the damage his tiny little baby kitten girl sounds (TLBKGS) are doing—to his sex life, to his relationship—or you calling off the wedding because you just can’t fuck him anymore?
Here’s what you need to do: Tell the fiancé again, calmly but firmly, that the TLBKGS are a huge turnoff. It’ll hurt to hear, for sure, but he’ll hurt worse if you let the TLBKGS destroy your marriage before it starts. Then the next time you’re fucking him and he starts to make TLBKGS, stop everything. Don’t pull away from him physically, don’t push him off you, don’t scowl or grimace or roll your eyes. Just stop whatever it is you’re doing and say in a flat, nonsexy, nonaccusatory tone, “That sound you’re making is a huge turnoff. It kills sex for me.” Wait for an appropriate response—”Oh, I’m sorry, I’ll stop”—and then immediately pick up where you left off.
Repeat as necessary until the TLBKGS are an unpleasant memory. I’ve seen this approach work—call it the “full stop”—on biters, screamers, scratchers, and gratuitous-mid-fuck-ass-spankers. It’ll work on tiny little baby kitten girl sounds, too.
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Oh, and the usual great advice, Dan.
I lost my brother about 2 years ago, TTMF, and it still sucks every time I meet somebody new, because small talk about family is standard. Another thing you can try, if it isn’t even harder for you, is talking about your sibling in the past tense. A surprising number of people catch on and move on without bringing the loss up more directly. Another chunk of folks don’t get it, but then we move on from the family talk pretty soon anyway, which is okay because then such a heavy subject can come up at a more appropriate time later on in the new friendship/relationship.
If it’s somebody who ought to know you intimately enough to share your pain, there’s no rush; you’re under no obligation to do anything about it other than what feels right to you.
Dan, you’ve actually SEEN it work? Or you’ve been TOLD it works? The prurient voyeur in me wants to know!
Very enjoyable column, as usual.
I have a similar incest fantasy I role-play with my husband but he is a brother taking advantage of me…I’ve never had a brother. I think it would be creepy if it were someone besides a fiction but I think A LOT of people are turned on by this, because its a taboo and naughty and we are deeply repressed. 😀 Look at those V.C. Andrews books that go like hot cakes, and every single one of them are incest, rape and molestation fantasies in the dsiguise of novels.
Your advice to Concerned “Father” was totally off base!!!!
First, he needs to know if she is reenacting. At 50-something, if she has not mentioned that ‘by the way, my daddy raped me’, she has NOT processed it and dealt with it. Go talk to a counsellor that specializes in working with rape and incest victims. I doubt you will listen or accept what they say because it does not fit your agenda. I have been a faithful reader for years, but this about blows it. If you can’t see what is wrong with your answer here, your almost as bad as Santorum and the other pieces of shit sex-nazis, just of a SLIGHTLY different mold.
For my own satisfaction, I will continue my tirade. This is from my years of dealing as a sociologist with the results of sexual abuse, and as an male childhood sexual abuse survivor.
Some people can go through one or two incidents of the sort in the scenario with only moderate emotional scarring. But that scenario plays like something that would be part of an on-going pattern that almost inevitably leaves deeply ingrained emotional scars.
The worst case ‘scenario’ for what is REALLY going on is that she has some degree or variety of dissociative identity disorder (multiple personalities) and he isn’t really have sex with the wife he knows. More likely, she is using this to scenario like many abuse victims do alcohol or drugs to ‘numb out’ their feelings and deny any responsibility (and mental involvement) in having sex, which has to be dirty, wrong, evil, degrading, even violent, etc. The logic may not seem to be there to you. And it would take WAY TO MUCH TO EXPLAIN IT TO YOU in this sort of comment.
The reenacting may lead to great sex for now. It is almost certain to be actually driving a wedge in the the relationship that may well blow it to bits… IF his wife ever really tries to deal with her abuse.
The most disturbingly creepy thing in the first letter is the fact that the letter-writer felt the need to identify himself as “white.”
Although having to use his actual father-in-law’s real name is icky, too.
But I suspect that Daddy/Little Girl incest fantasies are pretty common. It’s an extension of an already eroticized relationship/interaction. But it is a fantasy that is embarrassing to own up to, partly because it does seem so creepy and partly because people start assuming that is is really part of one’s past history.
If he was into mermaid porn and had a persistent mermaid fantasy which he asked his wife to indulge through role play, would anyone assume that somewhere in his past he had had a sexual interaction with a mermaid?
Turned on by fiction is one thing… Reenacting a sexually abusive childhood is playing with dynamite.
This just hits my hot button, so I will sign out for now and see if I have the stomach to read the next column.
You don’t have to be a douche, but it’s only as hard as you make it to tell someone “Look, you’re killing it, cut it out.” If you make it a big deal, please believe it’s gonna be a big deal. If you go low-key, consistent, and keep it upbeat, it goes over a lot smoother. Most sex partners want to please, and something as trivial as the sounds being made is easy to change; it’s simply a matter of habit.
As for the chick who wants to be fucked by her dad: yeah, everybody’s got their kinks but that doesn’t mean you have to be party to that shit. The whole thing would be pretty pat if it weren’t for the fact that she has you taking on the persona and nom-de-guerre of her RL father while she is apparently not roleplaying (!). It’s great she’s got a good handle on her kinks, but it’s time to A. talk about what makes BOTH OF YOU comfortable, and B. figure out whether or not there’s something else going on here.
If there’s no other problems, you might suggest you adopt a fake name of “a father” while she adopts the fake name of “a daughter”. At least then it’s firmly in the role of fantasy and you can look at your in-laws without warped mental games going on. The lone caveat is that perhaps your wife is enjoying this boundary-blurring, and if she loses interest without the pretense of “real incest”, you might want to go ahead and repick your wife. That’s a handful of fucked up that won’t be contented to stay in your private life; it’s already not.
JustPassingBy, you are making too many assumptions, the first ones being that CF’s wife is in her 50s and that they have known each other a long time. CF states that HE is in his 50s. She could be 22 for all you know, and they could be newlyweds. I think you make a lot of assumptions about the sexual abuse of CF’s wife, based on nothing more than a fantasy as described by her husband. Dan’s advice is on target. I’m not condoning sexual abuse in any way, but believe it or not, some survivors come through it with less trauma than you. (I’m sorry about your abuse.)
You know, she may not have been abused. Like many have said, incest is taboo and forbidden. Some people like that. I personally have never been abused, but one of my big mastubatory fantasies is having to do with a step father taking advantage of me. It just gets me off. The husband should ask about it because she may have some unresolved issues, but she also could just be getting off.
JustPassingBy, the letter writer clearly said that he didn’t know if his wife had been abused or not. Plenty of people have rape fantasies who have never been raped (the majority, actually) just as many people have incest fantasies who have never had incest. Fantasies don’t have to be based in reality; in fact, the best ones aren’t. You’re reading way too much into this because of what happened to you, for which I am very sorry.
Ears Plugged, it’s also harder to make TLBKGS when you’re gagged. Juuuuuust an idea.
Oh, also: @5, I’m like you and have similar fantasties, but they’re not about my ACTUAL parents / brother. That’s kind of weird and, imho, points to reinacting real abuse.
However, that in no way means it should stop! If she’s able to take posession of what was done to her and flip it into something that really gets her off, more power to her!
Enough with the acronyms, Dan. So lame. Just call people by the first word of the nom-de-plume they give you. Sheesh.
“A small handful of rape victims develop fantasies about rape role-play scenarios, an even smaller number of Holocaust survivors developed Nazi role-play fantasies… Sometimes our erotic imaginations are as inexplicable as they are powerful.”
Ummm, inexplicable? Dan, don’t you get that these exemplify the explicability of our erotic imaginations?
WOAH, 1st time I think I have better advice! Er, actually its more of an addendum to TTMF’s advice.
I think he should pepper in some emotionally strong situations before unloading such a thing, Or maybe waiting 1 more month.
My fear is that those lube bottle people you mentioned might come in the form of “Let me help you with your grief” creep/co-dependent people. Something that is always a factor but with his brothers death really recent, could become a bigger problem.
What is the turn around from mailing to publishing on these letters, maybe its already been a month and he is fine now.
First, Ears Plugged does need to tell her fiancé about here problems about the noises he makes during sex, but she may also need to recognize that this may be a problem that can’t be solved. I was on the other side of the problem for 30+ years of marriage. My husband would tell me that I was breathing “wrong” during sex. Apparently I held my breath and then would gasp and this would take him out of the moment. I tried to make certain that I would breathe “right” during sex, but all that did was make me pay attention to how I was breathing the entire time we were fucking and I couldn’t let myself go so that I could come. Then my husband would get angry because he was unsatisfied if I didn’t come.
I don’t think your fiancé is deliberately making the noises he makes to annoy you. He may not even be aware of making them. This may be an issue you both need to work on in order to reach a compromise. Having to constantly monitor yourself during sex to make sure you don’t do something you don’t even realize you are doing does not make for good sex either.
I don’t have good advice, I guess. Just realize that you may need to find some compromise between making him stop his behavior and putting up with it. I do wish you luck.
The kitten sounds lady sounds like she’s just looking for an excuse to end it. She put up with it for a year before finding it annoying? No, I’m sure it minorly annoyed her always, and now that she’s no longer in love with this guy, she’s blowing it out of proportion. My bet is that she takes none of this advice and leave the guy, probably telling everyone exactly her “reason,” thus embarrassing him and causing him emotional pain.
First, Ears Plugged does need to tell her fiancé about here problems about the noises he makes during sex, but she may also need to recognize that this may be a problem that can’t be solved. I was on the other side of the problem for 30+ years of marriage. My husband would tell me that I was breathing “wrong” during sex. Apparently I held my breath and then would gasp and this would take him out of the moment. I tried to make certain that I would breathe “right” during sex, but all that did was make me pay attention to how I was breathing the entire time we were fucking and I couldn’t let myself go so that I could come. Then my husband would get angry because he was unsatisfied if I didn’t come.
I don’t think your fiancé is deliberately making the noises he makes to annoy you. He may not even be aware of making them. This may be an issue you both need to work on in order to reach a compromise. Having to constantly monitor yourself during sex to make sure you don’t do something you don’t even realize you are doing does not make for good sex either.
I don’t have good advice, I guess. Just realize that you may need to find some compromise between making him stop his behavior and putting up with it. I do wish you luck.
First, Ears Plugged you do need to tell yourfiancé about here problems about the noises he makes during sex, but you also need to recognize that this may be a problem that can’t be solved easily.
I was on the other side of the problem for 30+ years of marriage. My husband would tell me that I was breathing “wrong” during sex. Apparently I held my breath and then would gasp and this would take him out of the moment. I tried to make certain that I would breathe “right” during sex, but all that did was make me pay attention to how I was breathing the entire time we were fucking and I couldn’t let myself go so that I could come. Then my husband would get angry because he was unsatisfied if I didn’t come.
Your fiancé may not be deliberately making the noises he makes during sex. In fact he may not even be aware of making them. This may be an issue you both need to work on in order to reach a compromise. Having to constantly monitor yourself during sex to make sure you don’t do something you don’t even realize you are doing does not make for good sex either.
I don’t have good advice, I guess. Just realize that you may need to find some compromise between making him stop his behavior and putting up with it. I do wish you luck.
Maybe she can just encourage her man to be MORE vocal in the sack and change the kitty-noises into more manly sounds if he gets a little more oompf behind them – that seems like it might be an easier route before having to level with someone about the sounds they make needing to “stop” – like the woman with the husband who had issues with her breathing (really, dude??), it might be better to work with him to try to change it rather than making it a “your issue” kind of thing. I don’t know. I’m with her, though – those kitty-sounds are a huge bummer.
I dunno, I kinda feel like if the relationship was solid, the whole baby kitten noises wouldn’t bother her. Is this overly idealistic? I mean, it’s not a hygiene issue. It’s not something that affects her directly physically. It’s just a noise that appears to be involuntary.
My impression is that it affects her view of his masculinity, which then annoys her/kills her desire. Maybe she should take a closer look at how she views his masculinity in general and possibly her views on gender in general BEFORE she brings this issue up with him. Basically, I feel like before she makes this guy self conscious about his involuntary physical reaction, she should make sure this isn’t some deeper underlying issue in the relationship and that it is indeed a sustainable relationship. She could also have doubts about the marriage and be looking for a fatal flaw.
But if it really is just a noise, she should definitely talk with him about it in a respectful way. Very respectful. He’s going to feel pretty weird that she’s waited a couple years to bring up something that bothers her so much.
“tiny little baby kitten girl sounds” Um, ok…just what the heck are those? I mean: I’m trying to imagine that sound. I’m a guy who likes girly women and I’m not sure what I’d make of that either! Good luck to EP!
I have had the uncomfortable experience of being where Concerned Father is – and if you’re not a real life creep/[socio|pscyo]-path – the “take a shower now” ick factor can be intense. It prompted me to go read up on the whole BDSM phenomenon of bondage as therapy for abuse. My partner was honest with me about the details of what happened to her – before we got very far into our play – and that made it possible for me to get the reassurances that I needed to avoid the ICK feeling.
I am not very sure of the theraputic soundness of working through the long shadow of her experiences in this way, but it was very empowering and gratifying sex for her.
Good advice from Dan.
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Dan: As a regular reader of your column, I’m used to some pretty stomach-turning correspondence, but a guy making tiny little baby kitten girl sounds, that’s more than I can take.
Aww… the one time (so far) that my boyfriend has made girly sounds during sex, I found it really hot because I identified with it — I knew exactly how I’d be feeling if I were making sounds like that! Then again, I am just a touch bisexual, so maybe that helps.
I agree with no.24, being turned off by the girlie noises could well be a sign that she’s actually turned off by a general lack of masculinity, or maybe an imbalance in the relationship.
I had a long-term partner who managed to dampen even my heroic sex-drive with his tendency to take on a feminized role. At first I noticed it in little things like his voice, which became a little girlie when he was talking about his feelings or when he was turned on… but later I realized it was part of a pattern in the relationship.
Yes, it is possible that the “kitten noises” are just her projecting her annoyance at this guy onto something other than the REAL issue.
It’s also possible that she’s just got cold feet about making such a huge commitment and she’s looking extra close at minor irritations and faults.
It’s also possible that the only reason it didn’t annoy her before was because they were in the “honeymoon” phase of the relationship and she was still so head-over-heels that her infatuation was stronger than her irritation.
Sometimes we can control or change our responses and sometimes we can’t. And sometimes, like the woman who breathed “wrong,” trying to be conscious takes us too far out of the moment to let go and surrender. My ex-husband made this face which turned me so far off I became disgusted. I felt like I couldn’t reasonably ask him to monitor his facial expressions during sex. My “solution” became to close my eyes–which felt forced and distancing.
He may not be able to change his baby kitten mews; he may become so self-conscious that it kills their4 sex life. But her current attempt to deal with this problem will definitely break them up, so she’s got nothing to lose by being (kindly) honest and talking about it with him.
Maybe her disgust does stem from her feelings that he isn’t masculine enough or some other, deeper issue, but asking him to stop the girlish kitten-squeals are at least a good place to start.
@ 24 – does it seem realistic to you for the woman to rework her entire view of masculinity and what turns her on? Really?
Because to be honest and address the issue seems like it would be a lot easier on both of them than for her to try to “take a closer look at how she views his masculinity in general and possibly her views on gender in general.”
Attraction isn’t something you can just analyze into being. If you’re not turned on by girly noises, no amount of reconsidering her views on gender will suddenly make them sexy to her. It’d be equally silly to say that a heterosexual guy should just deal and learn to find it sexy if his GF were making Tim Allen’s man grunt noises whenever they were in bed.
Although I do agree that the underlying reason for the noises becoming unbearable is likely to be problems in the relationship, not just the sounds themselves. Personally, that guy never would have made it to round two if he were whimpering like a girl the first time in bed!
Wow! So the stop trick is some kind of negative reinforcement pseudo-conditioning super-mojo!
I am the only person who finds little baby kitten sounds absolutely sexy? I interpret that they come from so much pleasure that you just can’t help but moan and whine, no matter how much you try to make the sound go away. And I agree with other commentators that Ears Plugged seems to be seriously hung up on gender, in a way that I find extremely disturbing and painful (probably more disturbing than EP finds the little baby kitten sounds). Dan, you should have addressed EP’s gender issues!
I once had to stop the action mid-makeout and ask my boyfriend to turn off the cast album of the musical Chicago that was playing.
@EP: Level with him, because I’ll tell you what’s going on in his head.
“She’s not into me any more. What is it? Am I not interesting anymore? Is she getting it somewhere else? Is she gay? She says she loves me, so what’s the deal?”
Once he knows what’s killing things, he can stop worrying about having to compete with the hot red-head next door, or whatever scenarios he’s imagining.
My dad died when I was around that age and I spent a lot of energy trying not to be “different” from all the happy-go-lucky kids who were untouched by grief.
The letter-writer should absolutely enter counseling, but should also be sure to seek out drop-in centers or groups that deal with loss, esp if there are likely to be people his age. (In NY, Friends in Deed is great.) It’s a lot easier to be around people who have also had their world rocked in some way like this, and at 23 not many have. Since he’s gay, he may find other young gay men who have experienced loss in HIV-related groups, or there may be others that appeal to him. His loss might not be due to the same causes, but he’ll likely find that people around him know what he’s been through. Also a sense of community around the fragility of human life can be helpful. If he finds a few friends like that, he may meet someone who has a similar experience. Or, he might find friends who understand, thus filling an important role, and he may then be able to date people who don’t quite know what grief is about yet.
Dan, I know you lost your mom not long ago, as did I. But in the early 20s when no one knows what’s up with that and few of your friends are mature enough to get it? It’s super-helpful to have a group that does, where it’s just part of your normal life. I wish I had had one then. TTMF, don’t hide your grief (but don’t dwell on it too much in front of the grief-virgins) and make sure you find friends who have been there. It’ll make dating and everything else easier.
@JustPassingBy (7): Did you read a different column to me? Because it sounded like Dan told CF to probe the issue. It sounded like he pointed out the “huge potential consequences” if there was real trauma here.
It sounds like you were taking issue with the fact that he didn’t recommend CF drag his wife straight into therapy. I’m a survivor of abuse too, but of a very different sort. I experienced an armed home invasion and attempted murder. That’s not the abuse I’m talking about: the abuse I suffered was being forced through several psychiatrists and psychologists trying to treat the “inevitable” PTSD I “must be suffering”. Once I finally hit a psychiatrist who told me that he thought my only problem was all the people telling me how mentally unwell I should be, I was sorted out in no time.
CF REALLY REALLY needs to not invent a mental health problem that doesn’t exist. What he needs to do, exactly as Dan said, is probe the issue and be aware of the potential for major trauma.
Ick. CF deserves some sort of GGG award: plaque, certificate, or trophy. That’s what Savage Love, Inc. should be selling instead of T-shirts.
Could Ears Plugged get her fiance to replace the obnoxious sounds with something else? Make him keep up a steady stream of dirty talk – hopefully he can`t talk and kitten-squeak at the same time.
@8, I didn’t even notice that. But it’s pretty common in many professions (ie healthcare, social service) to always identify people using age, sex, and ethnicity. So while it might seem creepy, I bet it’s not even a big deal.
CF, your wife came to you and asked you to participate in a highly disturbing rape/incest fantasy. You agreed, and now ‘the script’ is repeating with increasing frequency. You are creeped out and worried. And yet you have never even said as much as, “Can we have a talk about this some time, honey? I’m worried about you.”?! Seriously, what color is the sky on your planet?
I have quite a few more ideas for “Ears Pluggled” if her husband can’t kick his kitten noises habit:
–She could try, you know, actually plugging her ears. You can buy earplugs at your local drugstore that will cut down a huge amount of outside noise.
–Or, better, yet, she could stick her iPod earpieces in her ears and listen to sexy music. Should drown the noise right out.
–Perhaps her husband would enjoy a gag of some sort.
–Or she could try having her husband make deliberate sounds during sex, like having him make manly, loud grunts on purpose. Sometimes it’s easier to replace the sounds with other sounds rather than just try to stay quiet.
–A variation on this theme: they could try dirty talk. He’ll make fewer mewls if he’s talking.
–She could try vocalizing loudly herself (if you can’t beat’em, join’em!). It could help her get into the spirit of the thing more, and perhaps would draw her focus away from his sounds and more inwards.
Frankly, some of these solutions are so simple that I’m a little suspicious that she hasn’t tried any of these before. Could it be that there is more to her sexual shutdown than the noises? Is she using it as an excuse? Presumably, he doesn’t make those noises while sleeping, so why are they sleeping in separate bedrooms? Something to ponder.
@23: I don’t think any of those solutions are likely to work. Wearing earplugs or earphones during sex would just be weird, & send a clear message (whether intended or not) that she’s totally bored & ignoring him. Many people don’t enjoy a gag, or don’t like dirty talking enough to do it nonstop the whole time they’re fucking. & if she can theoretically “get him to” make “loud manly grunts,” it should be even easier to get him to stop squeaking, which is her true desire.
@42: Sheesh! The letter writer says he’s only done this role-play “a few times.” When a partner presents you with fantasy or kink that’s new to you, it’s generally considered GGG/good form to devote your energy to learning how to do it right, & reassuring said partner that you don’t think she’s a disgusting freak for mentioning it. Busting out “I AM WORRIED THAT YOU ARE A TRAUMATIZED INCEST VICTIM” could undermine those goals. Anyway, CF wrote in to Dan because he’s not sure how best to deal with the situation. That’s how advice columns work… the letter-writers don’t have all the answers & could use some advice. It seems a little clueless to insult someone because they sought an informed opinion.
Ok, does ANYONE else want to know if CF and his wife have kids? Because if they do, then they might have bigger problems than the squick factor at Thanksgiving dinner.
You’re awesome, as always. Great column!
Men making girly noises is really hot. If you don’t want him, lady, send him over to me.
“I avoid sex (we usually don’t even sleep in the same bed, although we live together)”
The issues are much much much more deeper than the sounds. The marriage is headed for disaster and if it is not the noise, it is the breath, it will be other things.
Discuss with your hubby his habit you are uncomfortable with in a way that is respectful but i do not know i have a hint that you do not respect him either….
To the hubby ( if he reads the column), your partner has fallen out of love with you part with her…
@44: Sure, be open to new stuff, give it a cheerful go if you can, whatever. But it seems reaaaally odd that he would agree to participate in this fantasy, be highly concerned but not be able/allowed to initiate a conversation about it. A gentle, general enquiry about her wellbeing, not freaking out. I don’t see why GGG should mean you have to pretend every possible thing your partner can come up with is equally peachy to you. That’s just fake.
Speaking of kittens, all three letters this week are boring as catshit!
@34, I know – that was kinda where I was coming from in some ways. I tend to date guys who have a lot of stereotypically hypermasculine qualities – though they are not what you would call stereotypical men in any way – but when I can elicit “girly” noises from them, I know I’m doing something pretty spectacular.
I’m not saying she shouldn’t talk to him about this, but I think she should understand fully why it’s bothering her before she does that. Putting it into context might take care of the problem.
And as someone with severe ADD (with a mild side of OCD), I have a lot of personal tics that are very hard to control. So far, nothing’s shown up in the bedroom that has bothered anyone. But when I’m having sex with someone I kinda like the fact that I can let my freak flag fly – even if that just means making whatever noises I want to. So I feel for the guy described in this letter. I do wonder how he hasn’t picked up on it though…
@43
I think the problem is that she objects to the very concept of him being less than entirely masculine. Her distaste of the noise itself is probably more a symptom of an underlying issue than the whole problem. I’d bet that there’s also an issue of ‘who’s on top’, of ‘who initiates sex’ and of ‘who’s the more dominant role’.
Lots of women I’ve known have associated masculinity with dominance, and control (for better or worse). So, what she’s objecting to as a little girl kitten noise is (I’d wager) really about some deeper gender issues between them. Maybe he likes pretending to be a little boy (or girl) during sex, and what makes it satisfying for him is that fantasy. His fiance, obviously, would never go for that.
I don’t get Dan’s advice here, though. It’s somewhat incongruous of him to say that she should just be “honest”, since time and time again he’s told people to (essentially) suck it up and find a real solution to the problem. Trying to alter his behavior to suit her needs is kind of bullshit if she’s not willing to try to alter her behavior and beliefs to suit his. My advice to him (when he inevitably writes back about this ‘full stop’ bullshit) will be to give her exactly what she wants, for a while, and then do the same thing to her. Start giving her satisfying sex, then stop and demand she let him moan like a little girl kitten.
Turnabout is fair-play, and I think she’s just being a bitch.