I was recently told that I am being puritanical and self-righteous because I can’t get over the fact that my partner spends a good deal of time seeking out pictures of very young girls to masturbate to. Nothing illegal, he says, but still…
He admits to having a 20-year-plus addiction to porn, and with that particular addiction, he says, comes the need to continue upping the taboo factor in order to get off. I can understand the natural escalation from traditional porn to something more risqué, and I’m fine with him watching chicks with dicks defecate in each other’s mouths until his eyes bleed, because those she-males are consenting adults.
Eight-year-old girls, however, are innocents preyed upon by pedophiles and people with child-lust disorders, in my opinion, and I think a rational adult, even in the throes of sexual whimsy, should recognize that boundary and not cross it. My question is this: Is it considered typical sexual behavior for a guy who’s really into porn to seek out YouTube videos of 10-year-old ballerinas without having any kind of pathological inclination toward pedophilia?
He Says I’ve Turned Into My Born-Again-Christian Mother
“Whimsy” is not a word I would associate with your boyfriend’s actions.
Your partner is chock full o’ shit, HSITIMBACM, as my own experiences with porn demonstrate: I’ve been consuming gay porn for 20-plus years now, and I have yet to “escalate” to YouTube videos of 10-year-old boys doing whatever it is 10-year-old boys do in the videos they upload to YouTube. (Are they jumping on trampolines? Lighting their farts? Writing Sarah Palin’s Facebook status updates? I don’t know because I’ve never checked.)
Backing up: It’s usually duly closeted members of the religious right who run around claiming that porn consumers seeking new thrills quickly progress from softcore to hardcore to kink to kiddie to kids. I believe your partner—lying piece of shit that he is—has latched on to the rhetoric and reasoning of antiporn crusaders because (1) he doesn’t want to take responsibility for his actions (“Woe is me, the helpless porn addict…”), and (2) he has no intention of stopping.
Hopefully your partner hasn’t “escalated” to actual kiddie porn yet, HSITIMBACM, and is only repurposing the odd ballet-recital video. But his attempts to rationalize and shift blame—to say nothing of his efforts to convince you that you’re the one with the problem—are ominous warning signs. His is the kind of deeply fucked-up, sociopathic reasoning you hear from guys who are consuming actual child porn and/or raping actual children.
Your boyfriend has a problem, not you; he needs help, not YouTube.
Here’s what happened: I just had sex with a street hooker. After cleaning her hands with alcohol-based lotion, she jerked me off. When I came, she rubbed the head of my penis all over one of her cheeks. When we were cleaning up, I saw she had something on her face. She said she had been injured in a fight with a screwdriver some days ago, and although there was no blood on this “sore,” she had removed a crust from it before meeting me. This sore was not open, but it was somewhat raw. My question is, what risk of STIs is there? Herpes? Hepatitis? AIDS?
Can’t Relax Unsafe-Sex Tension
You had me at “fight with a screwdriver,” CRUST; there was really no need to include that detail about the crust.
The odds that you contracted a sexually transmitted infection from your sex worker are very small. Unless the head of your cock had been reduced to a raw and bloody pulp by that handjob, and unless there was blood seeping out of her sore, it’s unlikely that her blood got into your bloodstream and, therefore, highly unlikely that you contracted anything more serious than a desire to inspect future hires for puncture wounds. If anyone was at risk in the situation you described in such colorful detail, CRUST, it was her, the sex worker who foolishly rubbed your semen into an open sore.
My wife left me a few weeks ago because she discovered an affair that I had a few years ago, ended, and then kept from her. In the years since the affair, I recommitted myself to our marriage and became a more attentive husband. My wife is hurt and furious, and for weeks would only call me to talk about getting a divorce. Three nights ago, my wife told me she is pregnant. She still wants a divorce, but she also wants our child to grow up in a stable environment, so she says she will forgive me to an extent so we can have an amicable relationship for the sake of our child. Last night, I went over to her new apartment and we had the first decent conversation we’ve had in months. She promised me that I can be a very active part of our child’s life, which basically means I have an all-access pass into her life, too.
I love my wife and miss her so much. I want to be a good father and do what’s right for my child. In part, I think that means staying married to my wife. Would it be wrong or immoral of me to use our child as an excuse to spend more time with her in the hopes that we can reconcile? For the next seven months, I can go with her to doctor appointments, Lamaze classes, baby stores—to say nothing of when our child arrives. Or would that be irresponsible?
Can’t Handle A Divorce
As reconciling with the wife would be in the best interests of your soon-to-be-born child, CHAD, spending more time with the wife in the hopes of reconciling would be the right and moral and responsible thing to do. Just don’t be sneaky about it, CHAD, as the wife clearly doesn’t appreciate your sneaking around. Tell her you still hope to reconcile, and ask if you can schedule some counseling sessions for after your Lamaze classes.
I’ve been spending my summer vacation reading through the Savage Love archives on your new Savage Love iPhone app. I was wondering if you ever heard from any of those people again, telling you how things resolved? I would like to think that people were able to work through their mismatched-interest issues with partners, or that the poor guy with the botched circumcision whose penis no longer had a head was able to get some sexual satisfaction.
Inquiring Mind
I’m taking a couple of weeks off later in August, and if anyone who’s taken my advice and lived—lived to tell the tale, lived happily ever after, lived to regret it—would like to write in, please do. Your letters would provide welcome updates for curious readers like IM here and a nice couple of easy-to-compile, easy-to-file vacation columns for me. So your updates don’t get lost in the swamp, please send ’em to youruinedmylifeyoubastard@savagelove.net.
CONFIDENTIAL TO ARGENTINA: Congratulations.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
Dear Crust,
Couldn’t you have just gotten yourself tested? Or was this a “I don’t want to go to a clinic, please tell me I don’t have to” letter?
I love the email address!
wow dan, DANGEROUS misinformation on your answer to CRUST. he definitely did NOT need to have an open wound and bloodstream entry to catchy herpes from that hooker; it’s skin-to-skin contact.
I feel like the “herpes” could just have easily been acne. But it’s never a bad idea to get yourself checked out at a clinic.
I wouldn’t stay with a person who got off on images of kids, pornographic or not.
But then, if she stays, she could always keep an eye on him, to make sure he doesn’t progress to actual kiddie porn/molestation…
Can’t Handle A Divorce should have the kid DNA tested. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Let me get this straight, CHAD: Your wife still wants a divorce, but she wants a “stable environment” for the child? Does she have any idea how mutually exclusive those two are?
Methinks your wife is emotionally crazed by the pregnancy hormones. (I say this from the perspective of someone whose pregnant wife suggested that he quit his job, rather than let a television into the house so that he could work at home; and yes, she was the one who characterized it that way first, once she heard what was coming out of her mouth and how batshit her suggestion was.)
I also have to wonder about the calendar that you present. Depending on the number of weeks that she has been gone, either a) it’s not your kid, or b) she has been pregnant long enough that the crazy hormone emotions are what drove her to leave in the first place. Me, I’m banking on “b)”. Most people in a rational frame of mind would put more weight on the fact that you ended it and rededicated yourself to the marriage all by yourself, years ago. She’s treating it like she practically caught you in flagrante delicto yesterday.
If she means it about that stable environment, she owes it to the baby, as well as to you, to get some counseling and try a little harder to forgive. Go ahead and spend as much time with her as possible. Don’t pretend to just go along with her divorce plans as if that’s the right thing to do, but don’t fight with her over it either. Just keep being there, and suggest counseling. You are going to need it in any case, whether it is for couples counseling or divorced coparenting, so there is no harm in the suggestion.
I’m betting that as the pregnancy progresses, she will cool off and realize the folly of what she is about to foist on the family for the sake of wounded pride.
HSITIMBACM should move out immediately and then turn her partner in to the police. I believe he has crossed the line and there is child pornography somewhere. If she doesn’t get away from him, she could find herself prosecuted as well.
In fact, I think HSITIMBACM’s partner has been steadily trying to test HSITIMBACM’s level of tolerance and push that boundary with her. DTMFA!!!
People who are damning HSITIMBACM’s partner to hellfire are way, way overreacting. Never once did the the writer mention any sort of actual child pornography…all the guy is doing is getting himself off to younger girls frolicking about on youtube.
Everyone has a fundamental right to their own sexual deviancies, to indulge in whatever tickles their fancy, ON THE CONDITION THAT said deviancies do not hurt or oppress or in any way infringe upon the fundamental rights of others. Based on that line of reasoning, HSITIMBACM’s partner is not committing any more of a heinous act than the multitudes who sit at home frantically getting themselves off to foot or furry pornography.
Clearly, that particular deviancy is dangerously close to an incredibly destructive action…rape and exploitation of children is one of the largest problems in the world today, in my view of things. However, HSITIMBACM’s partner is NOT supporting or indulging in or encouraging that practice IN ANY WAY.
One basic fact of biology is that heterosexual men are attracted to YOUNGER girls. As the joke goes, “if there’s grass on the field play; if there isn’t, get it wet and play in the mud”. In my own pornographic habits, I don’t at all consider myself to be a man particularly interested in very young girls, but the girls that I often find attractive are significantly younger than myself, say 16-19. We as men are biologically programmed to be attracted to young girls…period. It is senseless to vilify the desire…we have laws and parents and social contracts in place that theoretically protect those too young to make their own informed sexual decisions, and HSITIMBACM’s partner is not violating any of those, so lay off the damnation/police/DTMFA nonsense.
You know, I also wonder, ever so often, what happened with that guy with the botched circumcision. I’m sure we’d all be relieved to hear he’s doing well.
It is an apparently little-known fact that alcohol hand sanitizer products don’t work very well on their own. They can kill the germs left behind after a wash with soap and water, but can’t do much to disinfect visible dirt, grime or whatever that’s still on your hands. If your hands need washing, lotions and gels aren’t a good substitute. CRUST might want to apprise his future hookers of this fact.
I gotta wonder if CHAD’s lady is really pregnant. And I say that as a woman in a stable, honest relationship, not as some misogynist jerk who thinks all women are manipulative bitches. It’s possible that she’s punishing him by creating the most painful scenario she can think of — “I’m leaving you, you bastard, and oh yeah, I’m carrying your baby.” I kinda hope that’s the case, cause once she has to admit she faked it, they’ll be even (in a sense) and might have a better shot at reconciling.
Speaking of a better shot, wouldn’t any sex worker know better than to rub a client’s semen into an open wound?!?!
@5
Part of the fallacy of the “escalation/porn addiction” rhetoric is that there’s not really that often any kind of build up to either more extreme/illegal images/material, nor to actual physical action. Japan is all the evidence you should need of that. In fact, there’s plenty of evidence linking the decline in rape cases in the last fifty years to an increase in the availability of pornography.
If you find his habit distasteful, that’s fine. Break up with him in the same way someone might break up with someone into furry chicks-with-dicks getting pregnant, but don’t wrap it in a self-righteous flag.
@8
Not so much, no. They’d either have to prove criminal negligence (which would be if she had a duty to prevent him from doing an illegal activity and failed to do it), or that she was accessory to illegal activity. As wanking to legal images of children isn’t illegal, and she has no knowledge of any criminal acts, she can’t be an accessory. Sorry, no dice.
@9
That’s fine, but can we stop treating the varying levels of pedophilia (paedophilia for our overseas friends) as being something which is in and of itself evil? Abusing children is evil. Wanking to pornography which required the abuse of children to make is illegal. Fantasies about children, while unnerving, are not in and of themselves harmful.
If this is a simple disagreement about which kinks and fantasies are acceptable, that’s fine, but please don’t treat this as a matter of moral certitude. In the grand pantheon of kinks, pedophilia may be one of the more extreme, but if she wouldn’t break up with him over a rape fantasy (yes, the actual porn is consensual, but the fantasy is about an illegal, harmful, destructive, act), then the only difference is in whether she finds one kink to be more “eww, gross” than another.
It’s not some guidance from on high.
@10
Yes and no. I agree with the general point you’re making, but there is a difference between “ephebophilia” (attraction to pubescent and post-pubescent teens) “pedophilia” (attraction to preteens) and “nepiphilia” (attraction to toddlers/infants… Yeah, it’s weird). There’s a legitimate defense of HSITIMBACM’s partner insofar as it’s no worse by itself than liking rape pornography (or any kind of voyeurism pornography), but trying to claim it’s acceptable because men are made to find young girls attractive makes anyone defending him sound like an idiot.
@Dan
Yeah, except you’d hear the “why the fuck are you judging me, there’s nothing wrong with this” rhetoric from anyone possessing a kink (who isn’t ashamed of it). A foot fetishist confronted by a seething, foaming-at-the-mouth, partner would get just as defensive about it.
True, the girls being filmed in these cases have no intention of having men jerk off over them, but if that’s her problem she should have equal problem if he jerked off over a hot picture of an actress.
Does her partner have a fetish which is not shared by the bulk of humanity? Yes. Does he have a fetish she finds sick and wrong? Does he have a fetish which if acted-out would be illegal? Yes. Does that make him different from guys, and girls, who get off on kidnapping, rape, prostitution, blackmail, or slavery fantasies? Nope.
Sorry, you’re not going to get much traction from me by demonizing a kink which in and of itself isn’t destructive. Just because I like rape fantasies (and I do), and just because my girlfriend likes being “blackmailed” (and she does) doesn’t mean I’m going to ever rape someone, nor watch “real” rape pornography. Nor does it mean my girlfriend will eventually try to be blackmailed by someone more sinister.
The fact that you could replace HSITIMBACM’s screed against pedophiles (a term which is a bit too emotionally charged, since we have no idea how many pedophiles do anything illegal; though if we call a pedophile “anyone who wanks to fantasies of underage girls” the low rate of child sexual abuse in Japan compared to the high rate of “lolicon” pornography would seem to indicate the number is small) with a screed against any fantasy which the mainstream considers taboo, should have made you question how much you ought to throw your lot in with her:
“rape victims, however, are innocents preyed upon by rapists and people with psychological disorders, in my opinion, and I think a rational adult, even in the throes of sexual whimsy, should recognize that boundary and not cross it.”
You’re full of shit, Dan.
The bastard is getting off on 10-year-old ballerinas, for fuck’s sake. A cold chill ran up and down my spine.
If that isn’t a warning sign in and of itself, I don’t know what is.
But it’s even more likely that the baby ballerinas are only what he’s admitting to.
What a lousy analogy from the ballerina molestor’s apologist. Adult men may be attracted to 16 year olds: they’ll settle for 18, if they have a conscience or are smart.
If the horrible husband is attracted to 10 year olds and settling for 12 year olds, that’s still massively creepy and throw-him-in-the-deepest-pit criminal.
I’d run screaming out of that house, never to return, before the cops beat down the door for the inevitable bust.
Sorry but I don’t buy that sex fantasies of pre-pubescent children are just like rape fantasies or furry fantasies. Pedophilia is not just a fetish. It’s a sexual orientation that can’t be changed any more than a person can change being straight or gay – the difference is, though, that this sexual orientation is not victimless. If a man is having sexual fantasies about kids, it means he’s a pedophile and the only way to prevent him from harming kids is to lock him up until there is a cure. You all are naive to think he hasn’t filled his computer with real kiddie porn that she doesn’t know about or started grooming kids behind her back. Do you really think he’d tell her if he was abusing kids?! And if he’s not now, he will when there’s an opportunity for him not to get caught. Of course she should DTMFA! This isn’t so much about what he’s done but about the sort of person that he is. There are plenty of fish in the sea. No need to settle for someone who is so grossly defective.
for Can’t Handle a Divorce,
Go to http://www.marriagebuilders.com or read some of the books “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Surviving an Affair”
Add another one to the “DTMFA and turn his ass into the cops” brigade. This guy didn’t “escalate” to child porn, he’s been whackin’ it to kids for a while and is only justifying it because you found out.
Also, I find it really funny in a sick, demented way the kinds of bullshit some people will pull to defend pedophiles. If you get off on looking at little kids, you are broken. Period, end of discussion.
inb4 Seldon2639 is a lolicon :V
It’s disturbing, and it’s very different from rape fantasies. A person can indulge rape fantasies, blackmail fantasies, etc. with consenting adults and have a fulfilling sex life. A pedophile can’t do this. They’re stuck. It’s a really unfortunate condition, honestly.
As far as we know, he hasn’t done anything. Yet. Given his inclination to up the ante on his porn, I wouldn’t be surprised if he jumps to real child porn soon (if he hasn’t already).
If she has her suspicions, she can either leave him and/or leave him and turn him over to the police. She needs to make it very clear that it’s not okay. As long as he isn’t doing anything illegal (for the present time…), then there really isn’t any harm in it. She’s well within her rights to leave him, though. He sounds like a disgusting person bullshitting his way around being a pedophile and lying to his girlfriend about it.
@10:
1. Sexual attractions convert to actions whenever possible.
2. Attractions to children are NEVER permissible, acceptable, or defensible. Period.
To suggest that HSITIMBACM’s partner has only a hobbyist’s interest in 8 year-old girls is enabling, at best. In your case, and despite your pseudo-lawyer posturing, I rather think it’s one sick fuck defending another.
Choosing to mention that disgusting joke does little for your credibility.
If he were at all concerned about these fantasies, he’d get help. So no, I don’t think it’s as harmless as @13 says.
Re past advisees, the two I have always wondered about were Sad Cow (the woman whose husband had not made any physical contact with her, even brushing her in passing, in two months), and the man who agreed to his wife’s demand to have children, which he had never really wanted, in exchange for her participation in a MFF threesome, and three kids later she reneged (Dan told him he should, nay was obliged to, hire two sex workers and cheat on his wife to get the need filled).
UPDATE ON PREVIOUS ADVICE:
A question of mine was posted on March 18th, asking about how to advise my horny friend who was planning to marry a prude. The *next time* I saw him, he made a pass at me!
And they still got married.
I had the “escalation of porn” thing – when I was 13-15, before I had sex. After having sex, and after some porn experimentation, I settled down, and realised what I like to look at (pretty vanilla stuff), and now I rarely go beyond it.
My feeling is that escalation is only for those who haven’t been able to get any kind of a grip on their (sex) lives yet. Worrying for people no longer in their teens.
So, um, yeah, add one more to the angry mob chanting for the hide of the ballerina watcher: I don’t really like the idea of feeding the witch-hunt that is modern-day pedophile prosecution, but definitely DTMFA and GTFO immediately. What a creep.
*All* the advice to CHAD – including the DNA test – is spot on. I’d personally elect to see it in terms of pregnancy hormones, but I’d still follow Reagan’s “trust but verify” nostrum.
A question of mine was posted on March 18th, asking about how to advise my horny friend who was planning to marry a prude. The *next time* I saw him, he made a pass at me!
And they still got married.
Oh boy…a message for me (I’m not your friend, I’m sure).
@7 Divorce and stability are not mutually exclusive. Some divorces are rockier than others. It’s up to the parents to decide how mature they want to be in order to keep the environment “stable.” My parents’ divorce was disappointing, but I never felt like I grew up in an unstable home, just one that changed. I certainly don’t think parents should divorce in haste, or without giving it the best effort possible, but it’s also unhealthy for a child to grow up in an environment of resentment, bitterness, and pain. Every situation is different, and you cannot judge the woman for wishing to extricate herself from someone who broke his vows to her. If they both love the child, and respect each other from here on out, whether or not they reconcile their marriage, the child will have a stable home life.
One other thing re: HSITIMBACM
Do you want kids? Do you honestly believe this guy can be around your kids? No? DTMFA.
I think that getting off to prepubescent girls is disturbed, no matter how anyone wants to rationalize it. It’s not comparable to the male biological urge to mate with younger, more fertile females. The biological urge to find younger females has to do with fertility health (younger women bear healthier offspring) and secondary sex characteristics- ie. breasts, mature facial features, hips, etc. His urges are not something biological, it’s something psychological. He needs to stop immediately and/or get help. If I were the girlfriend, I would dump him immediately.
Oh, and by the way, what person with a major problem every admits it? They always say it’s you and not them- I know from experience. If you tell an alcoholic maybe they should slow down, then they tell you that you are overreacting. It’s not that they are about to die from alcohol poisoning- the real problem is that you are a no-fun, boring, anti-social loser who needs to get laid. If you dump your boyfriend because he was physically agressive, then he apologizes and swears on his life he will never do it again. Guess what? When you confront someone who is fucked up in the head- it’s always you and never them that has the problem.
Good Lord, people. The only hard and fast rule about human nature is that there are no hard and fast rules about human nature. Everyone is unique, and there is much more gray in the world than black and white.
You can no more say and prove that “everyone who has sexual fantasies about kids will actually have sex with kids if given a chance” than you can say and prove “everyone who fantasizes about killing their boss will do it if given a chance.” Some would, some wouldn’t, but people think about all kinds of things that they will never do, and would not want to actually do.
Examples of people whose fantasy lives are not in synch with their sexual behavior:
A straight female who masturbates almost exclusively to lesbian porn, but doesn’t actually want to have sex with women.
A gay female who loves gay male porn.
A straight man who fantasizes about eating his own spunk, but doesn’t want to actually do it.
A person who fantasizes about bondage but thinks actually getting hogtied would be too painful and awkward.
Etc.
The whole point of fantasy sex is that it is not reality. No complications. No negatives. All the upsides, none of the downsides. A person like HSITIMBACM’s partner can fantasize about young bodies without wanting to have sex with (and screw up) an actual real, unpredictable, frightened child.
@1: Definitely the latter. If he was *really* worried, he’d just get fucking tested.
@7: The calendar sounds reasonable to me. LW says she found out about the affair a “few weeks” ago, and it’s possible she’s been along for a week or two.
But yes, I wouldn’t rule that out either. This is *also* coming from a woman in a stable relationship.
CHAD, I personally think you deserve a second chance, barring some really, really egregious details. It feels that your wife seems to be talking rather far, considering the affair ended years ago.
That said, I do wonder about a few details in your letter. You mention that your recent chat with your wife was the “first decent” one you’ve had in “months.” Months? So has your marriage been cool for a while before your wife found out about the expired affair?
Anyway, good luck. Take it slow, be clear about your hopes, and know what you want if you’re going to pursue it. You can’t mess up a second time.
Here’s another vote for HSITIMBACM to DTMFA.
If HSITIMBACM’s partner were honest about his paraphilia, and said something to the effect of “This is something that turns me on, and I know it’s not normal and that I can never act on in real life” . . . in that case, the relationship might be salvageable. But as it is, it sounds like the guy refuses to take any responsibility for his actions or even acknowledge that HSITIMBACM has a legitimate reason to be upset. His insistence that his behavior is normal and inevitable points to bigger trouble down the road. HSITIMBACM should walk before his obsession “naturally” escalates to molesting actual children.
I think it’s sad that people think that CHAD’s wife is lying or that it really isn’t his baby. While I commend him for ending the affair and “recommitting” himself to the relationship, he still cheated, lied, and hoped to get away with it. I would also DTMFA, pregnant or not.
It’s no surprise that CHAD’s wife is very upset. The affair may have been years ago, but she just found out about it. Her husband cheating is fresh in her mind, even if not in his.
She has no reason to trust him now. It doesn’t matter that the affair has been over for awhile, he lied until recently.
CHAD will have to be patient and understanding if he wants a chance.
@15
So… He should be punished for the fact that he has fantasies which (if acted upon) would be harmful? I mean, jesus, that’s pretty Orwellian (I’m invoking it properly here, since that’s almost the definition of a thought-crime).
I’ll never state that abusing children is proper, acceptable, or anything other than a heinous crime which should be punished to the full extent of the law. But if he hasn’t done that (a) we have no proof of any illicit activity, (b) we have no proof he will commit a crime in the future, and (c) it’s simply wrong to chastise someone for liking something we don’t like.
Insofar as he doesn’t go out and harm a child, his “orientation” is no less victimless in and of itself than someone who’s into rape fantasies. Where’s the line you’re drawing between the two, other than your assumption that even if he hasn’t molested now, he will eventually?
@17
Maybe. And I’ll certainly agree something went wrong in ones sexual development. Let’s remember, though, that the same can be said for anyone wanking to almost any kind of material which the person speaking finds sick and wrong. My defense of pedophiles (again, it’s a difficult word because it’s used both for “those who have sexual attraction to prepubescent children”, and “those who have committed abuse against children”, even though the etiology can be completely different between those two events), comes from a sense that someone could castigate me for my fantasies under the same reasoning, and it would thus be hypocritical (at best) for me to stay silent. By the way, to be recognized as a pedophile under the DSM-IV, he would have to have sexual attraction to both prepubescent males and females, so he might not count as one at all. Just wanted to throw that out there.
What causes me to come down on the side of “don’t demonize him until he’s actually done something harmful” is that I have plenty of fantasies which, were I to act on them in their most literal form, would be horrible. Yet… I don’t. Most people I know who have fantasies about rape and blackmail and prostitution don’t actually go for the reality of it, so unless you can show me some data indicating “all pedophiles eventually commit abuse”, the artificial distinction you’re trying to draw is pure crap.
@18
Oh, absolutely she’s within her “rights” (even within her moral authority) to break up with him. But, that’s true of any person in any relationship at any time. I guess my point is that if I came to my girlfriend wanting to act out a rape fantasy, and she said “uhm… Eww, no, we’re done”, it’d be fundamentally the same thing.
What I find distasteful is the demonizing (and it is, since we have no evidence that any given pedophile would ever commit abuse, nor knowledge of how many actually do) of one specific area of “non-victimless” kinks, when the reality is that a lot of kinky behavior could be “non-victimless” if done in a way that wasn’t pure fantasy.
@19
I agree that #10 does not really make his case well, but you yourself make unfounded and unsubstantiated claims.
What evidence do you have that sexual fantasies eventually become actions “whenever possible”? Hell, how are you defining “whenever possible”? Again, I’ve had rape fantasies, I’ve acted them out with my girlfriend, I’ve seen pseudo-rape porn, and done roleplay of same. Does that mean I’ll eventually “up the ante” to doing the real thing? It seems unlikely.
I guess I have enough faith in the bulk of humanity to believe that most of us with “destructive” fantasies (be they rape, pedophilia, blackmail, slavery, torture, whatever) are ninety-nine times out of one-hundred able to channel that into non-victimizing avenues. Otherwise we’d see a lot more rape. And, if you’ll recall from my previous post, many psychologists argue that the decline in rape in recent decades is because of the availability of pornography.
@20
Are the only choices for when someone has a fantasy which (if acted out in its most literal form) would be harmful either that he’s a sick bastard who will eventually commit the act, or needs to go get “help” for it? I’m just wondering, since “rape” is one of the most common fantasies in modern society, yet our instances of rape are far lower than in previous decades.
Data, if you please.
@26
This, at least, is sort of legitimate. Truthfully, I don’t know what happens when a pedophile has children of his (or, rarely, her) own. I sort of doubt that it’s always quite as overtly abusive as you imply, but there is a part of me which thinks it could be prurient… I dunno, I’m waffling a bit on this issue
@27
Yeah, most kinks are probably more rooted in psychology than in biology, but what makes one given kink more “wrong” than another (aside from the initial “eww, icky” moment about it, which I’d hope most of us are capable of getting past to think rationally about it)?
My question is if you’d treat someone who you found looking up rape pornography (perhaps even graphic) on the internet as being in the same category of ‘sick, deviant, wrong, eventually going to hurt someone, ect.’ If you would, then that’s at least consistent (if somewhat judgmental and unsupported by fact), if you wouldn’t, can you please shine some light on what the inherent difference is?
All I see is “two fantasies, both of which would be very, *very*, bad if acted upon in a literal sense; one of which is acceptable, and one of which is ‘proof’ of severe fucked-up-ness, and which will eventually result in abuse”. The inconsistency bugs me.
@30
Again, though, replace the idea of a pedophile fantasy with the idea of a rape fantasy, and see if the idea gets the same traction in your mind. Yes, he refuses to take responsibility, or accept that there’s a legitimate grievance against his fantasy, but I know for sure that if a partner of mine found out about my rape fantasies, and decided they were sick, and wrong, and meant I was a rapist waiting to happen, I would be pretty defensive.
And, of course, as always, we need some evidence to suggest a natural escalation to acting out the fantasies in real life.
That said, I do at least get where you’re coming from. By stating his fantasy as part of the “escalation of porn” stuff, it makes him sound a lot more sketchy. But, break up with him because he’s sketchy and disingenuous, not over the kink itself.
Still, for the love of my sanity, can we please push ourselves past the initial “sick, gross, wrong” reaction and have a more reasonable discussion about this? Can we, at the very least, remember that there are many out there who would consider any of us to be just as sick and perverse as the worst pedophile?
@31: Really depends. Honestly. That he didn’t come clean sooner is a huge, HUGE strike against him, but people make mistakes and get scared about the consequences they face; covering up is human. Not forgiveable in every situation, but it’s a normal reaction.
And characterizing it as a continual lie for years is mistaken … when something ends, people often just move on. They feel it’s “over”, that it’s not something they need to address anymore. They forget about it. The wife didn’t know for years, but he wasn’t necessarily *lying* for years. Not saying a remorseful cheater shouldn’t come clean right away, but I guess I can see what’s happening on the other side of things.
Probably it’s because I’m really bad at it, but ducking interpersonal conflict out of fear rather than malice (“hoping to get away with it”) is something I sympathize with. It’s dumb, and it still hurts people, but it’s something more humane that an active choice to wound (which, yes, was probably his affair … but that’s another argument). And remorse really counts with me; I believe in chances for reparation. After all, I’d want the rest of my good record to matter at least a little if I ever made a mistake.
So DTMFA wouldn’t be my first response. It’d enter my mind, but I really would look at it at a second time. And the wife’s choice to leave him anyway is always there.
A bad relationship/marriage is always worse for everyone involved than a break-up/divorce. Myself, many people I know, and many studies have proven that divorce isn’t a bad thing – it’s the conflict that usually comes along with it that can be.
@25 — Thank you! I am a child of divorce and I never felt that my home life was unstable. My parents realized that my brother and I would have a more stable home life if they weren’t constantly fighting at home. I never felt as if I missed out on anything by having divorced parents, and in fact I feel that my home life was more stable because my parents were not living together.
@11
It’s a little known fact that alcohol sanitizers don’t work because it isn’t true. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) authorize their use for hands that are not visibly dirty, which the letter writer gives no reason to believe is the case here. Hospital personnel use them to avoid infecting patients, so they have to work pretty well.
Dear Dan,
I’ve been reading your column for years and years and I rarely disagree with you, but I have to disagree about your answer regarding the guy watching youtube clips of kids.
It’s very controversial of me, perhaps, but honestly I think this guy could be okay. I don’t think it’s wrong to fantasize about children, because if you keep desire in the realm of fantasy no one gets hurt. I believe you’ve even advocated people doing consensual child roleplay in the past – and how is that really any different than watching youtube videos of ballet dancers? In each case no one is getting hurt. And if parents don’t want people masturbating to their 10-year-old’s dancing, they should keep it off of public internet sites.
I should also mention that I’m a female and have occasionally been attracted to not-legal boys and have fantasized about them. Would I ever act on said fantasies? No! Because I do realize that there’s a line (although I don’t think the line is really where the government arbitrarily puts it at around 18). If this guy is just fantasizing he probably feels offended and defensive about his girlfriend’s attack. He could definitely talk to her in a better way – such as “Honey, I know this scares you and worries you, but it’s just a fantasy.” But the chances that a real pedophile would be masturbating that openly to stuff to do with kids in front of his girlfriend? It seems more likely that if he was doing the hardcore stuff or thinking about doing it in real life, he’d keep it locked away and hidden. That’s the nature of real pedophiles, from everything I’ve read on the subject.
At any rate, I think you might have overreacted. And maybe you have to, because otherwise you’ll get readers crying “pedophile” on you if you sign off on this dude’s fantasies. But still, a fantasy is a fantasy. Everyone fantasizes about shit they wouldn’t do in real life, be it a kid on a trampoline or killing their boss or whatever.
People who dream about killing their boss are not automatically called potential murderers is the only difference.
sincerely,
longtime reader
@7 Divorced parents are NOT necessarily unstable parents. Some people are mature enough not to try to play their children against each other and capable of being civil to past lovers.
Oh yeah – and I think it’s a total fallacy to say that people who get off on images of kids (among other things) are automatically only pedophiles as some people are saying above.
It’s possible to be attracted to all ages of people. There are people who find themselves predominantly attracted to younger people, but so far the author of the letter didn’t complain about his lack of interest in her. And she seemed to suggest he was into other extreme porn as well, suggesting he is not a pedophile, but maybe just a big perv or maybe somewhat addicted to extreme porn (as he suggests himself). Way different than a pedophile, who would have no use for the other forms of extreme porn or probably his adult girlfriend.
What the dude probably needs is to take a break from porn – not because it’s sick and wrong, but because it seems like he’s developed a dependency on fake sex and ever more extreme forms of fake sex to get him off. Maybe if he got more present in real life and his real sexual relationship (or perhaps a different real sexual relationship with someone who didn’t think he was a child molestor), the problem would disappear on its own.
People in the U.S. get way crazy about even a hint of someone being into kids. People can play violent video games all day and have rape fantasies and no one wigs out, but put kids in the equation and someone’s sure to act! It borders on hysteria. I wonder if Lolita could even find a publisher if it were written today.
It’s me, “Inquiring Mind,” from this week’s column.
Thanks for including my letter, and also for using it to plug the Savage Love iPhone app.
Unfortunately for Steve Jobs, and whatever kickback you might be getting for inserting endorsements for it whenever possible, I don’t have the Savage Love iPhone app.
I don’t have an iPhone, and so the phrase “on your Savage Love iPod app” wasn’t mine (but now that I’ve used the phrase “Savage Love iPhone app 4 times, I have honorably contributed my share of plugs, even as I disavow them, so hopefully Jobs and everyone else is satisfied).
And I read your column and write my letters on a PC.
But I still want to know what happened . . .
Best use of the word “repurposing” ever.
Ah Dan, just love you! Great email address!
Seldon2639 seems to be one of the few people here with their head on straight. Furthermore, maybe the reason his explanation of “porn escalation” was used precisely because he knew the reaction would be of this sort. I mean I am 100% open to the possibility that this guy is bad news, and he obviously has issues, but until he acts on them I’m not ready to grab my pitchfork. Dan himself has talked about “gold star” pedophiles (at least in his podcast). I’m wondering why he’s treating this case so differently – though maybe because it’s the pedophile’s girlfriend and not the pedophile himself writing in.
@34: Problem is, if we take from the letter that his guy “upes” the Ante, he can jump from Recitals to actual childporn, which is not victimless, and is a fucking crime.
Rape porn is acted out with consenting adults, Childporn involves children being exploited. Or in the case of the Ballerina videos, while the child themselves are not exploited, the fact he is using it as a sexual aide in a manner that the child and parent never consent to (of course this is why if you post anything like that up, you put it behind different security measures).
Rape fantasies can be roleplayed with consenting adults, Pedophilia is a problem because of the target of the attraction is incapable of consent, while you have some who may be capable of suppressing their need, you got too many others with poor impulse control, or just had that moment that they give in. And the pedophiles have a tendency to be drawn towards careers in which they are surrounded by children, a recipe for disaster.
@7, 34
He’s been keeping something from her for years. That is a continual betrayal situation. I wouldn’t be able to forgive that either, and I’m not pregnant or crazed out on any hormones. The knowledge that your partner is able to successfully lie to you and seem like everything is fine means you can never trust them or feel good even during good times. They can always be hiding something. That ability to act through it all means they can’t trust anything, the sincerity that you wont do it again, nothing.
Thinking back on years of memories with a partner and knowing they were keeping something like knowledge of an affair from you the whole time is too much. Affairs are bad enough, but adding years of being fooled into thinking everything was fine? Its worse, not better. Add to that they never respected you enough to tell you themsleves before. I don’t understand why people are handwaving away the fact that the affair was years ago, like that makes the wife more unreasonable.
@44 I believe the reason why most of us are concerned is, as I pointed out earlier, the fact that he claims to require more and more extreme porn. Using that knowledge, it’s likely that he would go to actual child porn.
And then it’s not okay.
He hasn’t done anything wrong now, and shouldn’t face any sort of legal trouble whatsoever (provided that he, again, hasn’t downloaded actual child porn).
This guy is not a gold star pedophile. I don’t know how you could think that. He isn’t trying to receive any help and if he is a pedophile, he won’t even admit it. That doesn’t sound like someone who deserves a gold star in my book.
I may be being prejudice and judgmental about the letter writers boyfriend, but I would be worried if I were here. I understand that not all pedophiles act out their fucked up fantasies, but like many have pointed out, this guy gets off on escalation and taboo. He may be “only” looking at videos of children, but that is just the beginning. Looking at child pornography is exploiting and abusing a child, just by supporting it. This asshole may never act on molesting a child, but porn is just as bad. Rape is completely different and I don’t think it’s comparable. It is also a horrendous act, but at least the victim would be an adult and not a naive, impressionable child.
I used to work with children. Would it have been okay for me to go home and fantasize about the kids I taught in a sexual way, even though I never touched them and was completely professional in all respects? My instinct tells me absolutely not. Children are not sexual beings, they do not understand sex, on top of a lot of other things. As a former teacher who is decidedly NOT attracted to children, I have to tell you that anyone who is has serious issues. Knowing children, their capacity for love, their lack of understanding, their general lack of control over their world breeds compassion not sexual tension. Children literally have no frame of reference for what is right and wrong in many cases. I guess what I’m saying is, taking advantage, whether physically or mentally, of someone else’s complete innocence is just wrong. People like that need therapy. Think of Michael Jackson. Those on here protesting that it’s okay are just justifying. It’s not okay. The moment you admit it is wrong is the moment you can move forward and treat the underlying cause of the fetish. And really, calling it a fetish makes it sound okay, but what it makes someone is a perverted opportunist. Seriously, as adults we should be able to find something else to masturbate to, something that doesn’t involve destroying someone else’s life – because a child can never consent. Maybe that’s hot to some people, but this is why it’s illegal.
Thanks Dan, I live in Argentina, and I am really happy that the politicians finally did something right,despite the pressure from the (Catholic) Church!!!