Ever since hearing you say on your podcast that all men use porn, I have had a burning question: What about us women? If all men get a pass to have this whole other sex life, which is (mostly) external to their partnerships and is sexually satisfying, then all women should have a pass as well. Ideally, it would be a pass to enjoy something universally arousing to all women, something that would sexually satisfy us, but it wouldn’t be something that turns most men on, perhaps it might even repulse them. If there were something that met my criteria, I wonder how it would play out in our relationships? Also, I am not sure what it could be, as women are a little bit more complicated.
Desires Erotic Balance
Something women enjoy but men do not… something erotic… something that repulses most men…
Cupcakes?
The now-ubiquitous cupcake isn’t explicitly sexual, I realize, but our culture does encourage people—women in particular—to sublimate their erotic desires by stuffing their faces with food. And most of those squat, round, and pink-frosted things look, to my jaded eyes, like so many squat little cocks, DEB, so many growers-not-showers with pink sprinkles, and most of those cupcocks are inhaled by women. So, cupcakes.
But if cupcakes don’t do it for you, DEB, then how about a free pass to enjoy, eyedunno, maybe porn?
“We’re actually in the middle of a porn-for-women revolution as millions—yes, millions—of women are loudly, even proudly, proclaiming their interest in porn,” says Violet Blue, author, blogger, activist, and tireless foe of antiporn boneheads everywhere. If you were reading Blue’s blog—www.tinynibbles.com—you would know that one out of every three consumers of internet porn are female, according to a Nielsen NetRatings report released in 2007.
“What’s interesting isn’t just the growing number of women using porn,” says Blue, “it’s that they’re doing exactly what DEB suggests. It’s part of their own private sex lives that are mostly external to their relationships.”
What women have lacked up to now is the same “free pass” men enjoy.
“Guys are encouraged to have this other sex life with porn,” says Blue, “that’s seen as normal and healthy. But despite the numbers, our culture is having a hard time admitting that women like porn. Antiporn feminists ignore the female viewer. The only people, besides Oprah, acknowledging the female viewer are the antiporn Christians who see it (and female masturbation) as a disease they can cure!”
Blue directs female porn consumers to Our Porn, Ourselves (www.ourpornourselves.org).
“On OPO, women are talking about liking all kinds of porn, even stuff that goes too far for some guys,” says Blue. “Women are making each other feel comfortable about their newfound access to porn, openly having their desire to watch sex (and jack off to it) validated the same way that guys do.”
I am a man who has been in an open marriage for 10 years. My wife dates men on her own, and I get to enjoy the occasional threesome with her and one of her partners. (We had no luck dating women or couples.) The problem is, she is clearly more interested in “her” dates than in “ours,” probably because the hotter guys are more interested in her alone than in us together. My wife is GGG, but it is hard for her to persuasively feign interest in the guys who are interested in us both. And it is frankly depressing to watch her go through the motions with one of “ours.”
Does being GGG require her to be a good actress, or does it require me to pretend that I believe her when she claims she enjoys the three-ways we have together?
Is This A Silly Problem?
This isn’t a silly problem. You’re not happy, which means your relationship isn’t working, which means it’s time to renegotiate terms: Tell the wife to stop fucking other people for a while. (And, yes, you should have the authority to do that—both partners in an open relationship should be able to call a time-out.) If your wife balks, concede that you’re asking her to pass up on some opportunities for hot sex. Then remind her that you’re the guy she married, that you’re the guy she’s hoping will stick around once hot guys aren’t lining up to get in her pants anymore, and that there will still be hot guys out there who want to fuck a year from now.
While you’re not fucking other people, fuck each other, fuck a lot, work to reestablish your sexual connection.
Then when you’re ready to start fucking other people again—and you’re not ready until you’re both ready—your wife should agree that over the next year she will fuck only guys who are interested in fucking you both. That’s going to mean passing up on some hot guys who are only into her, of course, but that’s a sacrifice she should be willing to make in order to save her marriage. It also means that she’ll have to work harder to find hot guys who are into you both—do whatever you can to help—but she’s likelier to make that extra effort if it’s the only way she gets to fuck a hot guy who isn’t her husband.
Hopefully by the time your three-way-or-the-highway year is up, ITASP, you’ll have a few regular thirds on deck—hot guys who are into you both, guys your wife won’t have to pretend with—and then she can do some solo adventuring without shredding your self-esteem in the process.
What is your favorite kink? What fucked-up thing does Dan Savage get up to?
Nosy Reader
My kinks aren’t interesting, NR, and my marriage vows specifically forbid me from disclosing that sort of information.
Here’s something interesting: “A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew,” the Guardian reported last week. After the dude “introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship,” the two “had consensual sex in a nearby building.” The woman went to the cops to report that she had been raped only after she learned that the man wasn’t Jewish.
Now I don’t think there’s anything wrong with fucking the shit out of a guy you’ve only just met (that’s how I met my husband), but I gotta say: When we have consensual sex with strangers—when we go to “a nearby building” with someone we’ve only just met—we’re not just taking a chance on a person we know very little about. We’re taking a chance on our own bullshit detectors. And no one’s bullshit detectors are 100 percent accurate. So someone who can’t bear the thought of accidentally fucking an Arab or a Republican or a married man or a guy who makes less than $250,000 a year really has no business fucking strangers. That person owes it to himself/herself to get to know people a bit better before visiting any nearby buildings with them.
Not because it’s okay to lie. But because people do lie.
That business with Arab-Jewish sexual encounter is an unpleasant one, but the male did lie in order to get a romp in the hay. His motives weren’t that great either.
151: Immaterial. We are talking about whether she raped him or not, based on the concept of faulty consent being no consent. What her culture might have to say on the subject of her sexual activities is an entirely separate question. Yes, she might will get killed just for being seen with him unchaperoned — at which point the question we are discussing, was-HE-raped-by-her-or-not, doesn’t even arise. Try to stay on topic.
The racial implications I was referring to was the attitude underlying “I would never fuck a Palestinian.” Surely a Jew, of all people, should understand the evils of demonizing another ethnic group. You want to talk about the evils of Sharia law, go right ahead, I’ll probably agree with everything you have to say — but again, it’s changing the subject.
I am a married woman who tries to be GGG as much as possible, and I’ve always been confused about why my husband won’t share his porn with me. I know he has porn and uses it, but for some reason it’s important for him to hide it from me. I guess maybe for him it is a private thing — that never occurred to me. I just wanted to share his sexuality with him.
Most porn doesn’t do much for me — I actually find it pretty boring. I do enjoy erotic literature, however, and in contrast to many women who have written in to these comments, I don’t enjoy gay erotica — but lesbian erotica really turns me on. I tried to share this interest with my husband, but it made him very uncomfortable — also confusing to me. I think I understand, now, that he interprets porn enjoyment as a very private thing, which is OK.
@Gloria – re: “Although I guess that broader definition is a little silly if the word includes the word for “image.” Oh well.”
actually, “pornography” does not mean image at all. the ending “-graphy” actually pertains to writing or drawing. Pornography is believed to have referred to the practice of prostitutes writing their price list on the wall.
-graphy: recording” or “a writing, recording, or description,” from Gk. -graphia, from graphein “to draw, write,” originally “to scratch” (on clay tablets with a stylus), from PIE base *gerbh- “to scratch, carve”
@155: Hah. Sorry. I knew I should have checked to get the specific etymology. I suppose I figured since the act defined in “-graphy” resulted in pictures, “image” would suffice.
But naturally not. The internet proves me wrong yet again!
Re: prostitutes writing price lists, I find that dubious. But I’d definitely be interested if you can point me to a source that discusses it. Would be a good read.
I was reading books like the “The Happy Hooker” by the time I was 11, and thank GOODNESS I did because otherwise given the way I was raised I’d have never been any fun in bed! I learned a lot from Xaviera’s column actually and yeah, reading her started me reading other erotic books and that led me to watching porn and GASP actually liking it.
I still don’t care for porn that disrespectful of either gender. Playful S&M is one thing, hard core nasty beatings are another, and I definitely don’t want to ever see kids or animals participating in my porn, thank you, but otherwise I have no problem with porn at all. The things that don’t particularly turn me in male-oriented porn, like the girl on girl and guy on guy scenes? Well, that’s what the FF button is for to keep me from losing my interest at an inopportune time, ahem.
I haven’t exactly had a multitude of sexual partners, but those I have had they haven’t had any complaints in regards to my erotica collection. Literary, visual, audio, I’ve got a bit of each actually, and usually once the guy gets over the shock of a woman admitting she likes porn he’s fine with it and usually ends up enjoying it with me.
Porn doesn’t have to be the enemy. It can enhance a sex life too. Fantasy is fun so long as you remember that reality is always there in the bed with you.
I’m a female in a relationship who pretty much watches porn very often. I could say everyday but then people might think I have a problem. I’m also NOT on xanax or any other anti-depressant. Go figure?
“Tell the wife to stop fucking other people for a while”??? NOT!
Tell your wife you’re feeling like you’re missing out on the pleasure she’s enjoying in her one-on-one encounters with other really hot men, and you’d like to renegotiate the terms of your open relationship. Say that while the two of you are working this out, you’d like the two of you to take a break from having sex with other people.
There’s a big difference between ordering her to do this, and requesting it.
Strangest, longest responses ever. I don’t get it.
That’s not Violet Blue. That’s the woman who destroyed someone’s career to steal the name, but that’s not her.
To Dan Savage —
If you’re not familiar with Robert Jensen’s work (research and calls to take back power from the porn industry — to promote our basic humanity), please take a look.
For example: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freela…
I’m so often pleased with your insight into power and privilege (particularly your understanding of heteronormativity) that I felt especially let down with the response to “Desires Erotic Balance.”
Advice to “eat cupcakes” and “look at porn” fails to engage gender issues — issues of power and privilege — involved in both activities . . . and ignores the fact that many women (and men!) cannot “get off” while supporting the porn industry. What about advice for imagination and lit-erotica and, as this is your specialty, other creative play?
Or, you might have responded to the issue of men getting a “free pass” instead of treating Desires Erotic Balance’s post as advice-seeking. I read it as seeking co-complaining and reassessment instead. So, could you reevaluate the free pass?
RE: ITASP, in an open marriage, i always assumed that it didn’t matter who the spouse fucks, you can just assume he/she is fucking someone else, but always comes home. Why would husband get to tell wife to stop fucking altogether?… it’s an open marriage, for God’s sakes.
@ 149 … i totally agree, it is 100% racism, and anyway, within 30 minutes she was fucking him, so what does that say about her? Race aside, doesn’t anyone get to know the other person at all before they decide to swap body fluids????
I can’t believe that nobody has mentioned birth control as a revolution in the way that women think of sex of any kind, real or porn.
159: I’m not sure why “Tell the wife to stop fucking other people for a while” implies that it necessarily will be phrased as an order, complete with “Achtung!” at the beginning. On the other hand, just because something is preceded by a “Please” or an “I’d like it if…” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is optional.
Certainly, be polite and respectful. But if something is non-negotiable, don’t phrase it as if it is. Your newly ex-spouse won’t thank you for allowing them to think that it wasn’t something they had to take seriously.
163: if a marriage can be opened, it can be closed again, if being open is causing problems. You don’t set something in motion if there is no way to apply the brakes when problems crop up.
A marriage is only open if both partners are happy with that. If only one partner is on board, it isn’t an open marriage, it’s an impending divorce. Saying that you don’t get to require changes to the situation leads only to “Fuck this, I’m outta here.”
As a man the only only friend I have who I can talk about my emotions, hopes, and feelings with is my wife. My wife is free to talk with all of her girlfriends about these things, because she needs/wants more of this connection than I do. Just like I desire more sex than she does. On average men view more porn and women have more gossip.
@133
The problem is that a sexually-open relationship is much more difficult to navigate for most people. Emotions are tied in with sex, as are feelings of desirability. On some level, I suspect the writer is more concerned that his wife is less interested in *him* than that she’s less interested in *threesomes*. Especially if a relationship did not begin open, it’s up to both parties to say “the person I’m coming home to is this, so if I have to sacrifice, I’ll sacrifice”.
Your relationship(s) may work differently, but I’ve not met many people who can thoroughly divorce sex in a long-term relationship from feelings of love and being desired. Even in most open relationships I’ve seen or heard of, it’s “this is my main relationship, everything else is a side-dish”. This gentleman is feeling like he’s been moved to being a side-dish, and his wife prefers to have something else for the main course, that’s not what he signed up for.
Since those feelings aren’t likely to go away until he feels like he’s the main-course again, it’d be unfeasible for her to continue sleeping with other guys; he’ll still feel like she prefers their hot bods, and that she’s only begrudgingly being with him; that’s not fair to either of them. It’d be like having a girlfriend who I fairly vocally expressed I preferred spending time with my other female friends. At some point she gets to say “we’re going to spend time together now and rebuild this, or we’re done”.
@147/148
I can’t speak for most men, but I understand the appeal of erotic literature. What we don’t understand is why so much of it is sheer crap, yet sells like hotcakes. And, on some level, I think we’re not generally as big fans of stuff like fanfiction. I can’t substantiate that, but I’ve known many more girls and women who write fanfiction (or slash, or lemon, ect.) than boys and men.
In the interest of full disclosure I should say that I read the first eight Anita Blake books, and stopped reading when it turned to pure smut. The problem wasn’t the smut, it’s that it was bad smut. That said, I do think the difference in audience is important, and that it goes back to the point I’m making with a lot of the porn-negative people: the audience makes the product. If more women seemed like a viable porn audience, I have little doubt there would be more porn geared toward them. It’s the same issue with comic books (if I may nerd out a bit).
@149
A small quibble, but they’re actually likely of the same race. It’s why “antisemitism” isn’t just “hating Jews”.
I do agree, though, that the entire thing has become way more than it should have been. She was not raped, simply lied to. There are cases where fraud leading to sex is rape, but those are limited. The only cases I can think of off the top of my head here in Colorado are ones where someone has impersonated a woman’s husband. Lying about age, religion, job, money, breast size, whatever, is all fair game.
@159
I get where you’re coming from, and if she agrees to it under that explanation that’s great. But he needs to be ready to say “I’m your husband, the guy you want to come home to long-term, and I’m not happy here. If you want the guys with the hot bods, there’s the door”. Any relationship that becomes open still has to be predicated on the understanding that “this is my main relationship, the actually important one”. She violated that.
@162
I think Dan’s implicit point was that the “free-pass” so-called should be just as open to anyone in any relationship. So, to that end, it’s probably something to take up with a prospective partner.
But, the bigger issue is that you make some basic assumptions with which many people here seem to disagree. I, personally, see nothing inherently against our human rights in the porn industry, it (like everything else) is responding to basic desires and filling a market.
I read Jensen’s articles (or as many as I could stomach) and a theme emerged in his interaction with porn in general, and especially with porn actresses: it’s inherently wrong, patriarchal, and anti-feminist. He views haranguing women about their choices to appear on Abby Winters as being reasonable because he respects them… Odd that someone who respects women would engage in a tactic similar to the browbeating of women seeking abortions. I’m calling foul.
I will agree that most of pornography is geared toward men, and that should change. There should be a stronger female audience for it, and that would push it away from male-dominated fantasies (please, do remember that it’s an industry, not a shady cabal bent on keeping women down, they’re out for money, not societal change). Even femdom and other porn showcasing strong female “leads” (for want of better terms) are geared toward some male fantasy. I’ll never get the sadistic CBT or “eat your own cum” stuff, but some people must like it.
Is porn exploitative? Maybe. Women are using themselves as a commodity to sell a product to an audience and make money. Of course, the only difference between that, then, and working as a junior associate at a law firm is that the latter is considered at least somewhat prestigious. There’s a series of articles you ought to read:
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/pornwrit…
I think ITSAP sounds kind of pathetic. Why should she lose her fun on the side? It doesn’t sound like he puts any effort into getting his own solo dates.
If I were that lady I’d be bummed out.
If DEB wants something for women that really parallels porn for men, it’s also going to have to be something that men dump moralistic bullshit all over, and accuse women of being emotionally and socially inadequate for enjoying, and accuse women of hating men because they use, and shame and revile women for, and …
@DEB
I agree with Dan in general.
you know- female baboons are the ones with the colorful and flamboyant asses, not the males
women are the ones who paint their lips red, not (usually) guys
it’s a psychological fact that males are the more visually-oriented sex, not females
you want female oriented porn? it’s called “soap operas” and “romance novels”
utterly abhorrent for the most part
womens’ equality doesn’t mean you take over male physiology, just our jobs
lol
Romance novels used to be ‘women’s porn’ because it was socially condoned. But as several fellow addicts have already pointed out, a lot of us (especially those who hate romantic novels) have discovered porn. Personally I like stories without a lot of exposition. I wonder how many women are into visual porn compared to pornographic stories…
@169… Damn, dude. Bitter much?
For DEB, I personally love romance novels. My husband thinks it’s silly (I wouldn’t go so far as to say they repulse him) but he does refer to them as my girl porn. And he is right, a lot of the writing is HOT and I definitely get off on it. Maybe try looking into that? Romance novels make up the largest percentage of book sales so I think a lot of other women enjoy them the way that I do!
Why the hell would anyone classify something as “universally arousing to women?” WTF is that? It sounds like gibberish to say out loud, and if I can get it out at all, I can’t stop laughing.
It’s probably less funny to talk about things that are “universally arousing to men,” but it would mean just as little.
What a bad joke, but it still makes me laugh.
Also, I don’t understand this thing called “a free pass.” I didn’t know anyone needed an OK to like sex, or other things. Who is this free pass given to in exchange for the Thing one likes? One’s spouse? (Huh?) Other people of your gender? (Double huh?) Michelle Malkin? I don’t think she accepts passes. Although, I have it on good authority that it is still free to try to fantasize about fucking her while she’s hanging out over a fourth-floor window.
‘It’s probably less funny to talk about things that are “universally arousing to men,” but it would mean just as little.’
Well, there is Viagra.
My understanding is that Viagra does to women what it does to men, but that not all women connect those sensation with arousal. That’s why it seems fair to say from the studies floating around that women experience arousal as an inversion of how men experience it.
@#176 (Mike Leung): I’m a woman and I’ve tried viagra. First of all, whether in men or women, viagra doesn’t affect libido; it affects blood flow. So if a man with no interest in sex takes it, it doesn’t give him the interest. He still needs to have desire all on his own. Blood flow and erection dysfunction aren’t usually women’s problems. The biggest complaint is a low libido, and increased blood flow does nothing for that.
I tried viagra not to try and overcome a dysfunction, but because I was curious about whether it would make my clit more swollen when aroused.
All I can say is that in my case all the blood did gather in one place: my face, which got beet-red and hot for an hour or two. Like a good scientist, I tried viagra again to see if the results I got the first time were repeatable. It happened again.
@169: not a point I’ve seen made yet, so thanks for saying it. To elaborate, something analogous would have porn titles labeling any man who enjoys sex as a ‘slut’ or a ‘whore’. Women and men both deserve better.
DEB, both men and women are more complicated than the porn industry assumes (I’m basing this on the men I’ve dated as well on myself and my female friends). It’s not that women are more complicated than men, it’s that the big corporate sex film industry makes as many stupid assumptions as the big corporate mainstream film industry. However,…
Here’s my wish-list of simple things the industry could do to make things more ‘universally satisfying’ to women. Maybe some producer out there will actually read this.
1) putting the camera where the woman’s eyes are. Years of good sex have conditioned me to be really turned on by looking up at a man’s abs as he’s thrusting away. Since that’s a pretty common sex position, I’ll bet a lot of women have the same reaction. Not everyone, of course, but a lot. Instead, they show us close-ups of a woman’s clit. Meh.
2) the industry needs to stop ruining films in which both actors are obviously enjoying themselves by adding the words ‘slut’ or ‘whore’ to the title. These terms alienate 1/3 of the potential viewers (apparently 1/3 of porn viewers are female) by telling us ladies that we should be ashamed of enjoying sex, and that we’re victims of sex. They probably also alienate some male viewers. Not a good way to get us to spend our money. I get that some people use these words in the reclaimed, sex-positive, ‘ethical slut’ sense, but for a lot of us they trigger an instant anger reaction.
3) makers of porn for women have to stop all making their websites entirely pink. Of course some women like that, but there are also a lot of us who hate pink and associate it with being 5 years old. Not exactly the way to turn us on.
4) condoms! Please, please, please use condoms – not only because it makes the actors safer, but also because it helps the viewers associate condoms with being turned on, which promotes increased condom use. I might enjoy a movie a bit more if I didn’t have to overcome feeling a bit grossed out by the lack of condoms. Kudos to the makers of gay male vids for being a bit better about this than the makers of the hetero vids.
5) those making porn aimed at women need to give us enough free previews that we know the videos are something we might like rather than something that will anger us. As it is, someone like me making their first foray into watching porn will form opinions based on the free stuff in places like rawtube, and decide that there’s no way we’re spending money on that crap.
6) there are a bunch of us understandably uncomfortable with having some porn company’s name on our credit card statements. What if we could pay cash at a female-friendly sex shop like Womyn’s Ware to set up a nice, confidential, no-names-attached paypal-type account for online porn?
7) this one’s gender-neutral: set up feature-based rather than category-based websites. For example, I’d be searching for things in which condoms were used, and things with erect rather than floppy wrinkly penises, things in which the woman’s pleasure was audible, things in which the man’s pleasure was audible, and excluding anything with the words ‘slut’ ‘whore’ or ‘pussy’ and anything in which the man is overweight (don’t worry guys, some women I know love a buddha belly – I’m just not one of ’em).
to D.E.B.
I just wanted to mention Yaoi or Boys Love graphic novels/manga because this genre has a huge female fan following I personally enjoy it as porn/erotica and perhaps I should mention I am a mostly straight open minded female. ^-^ and if that doesn’t flot it for you there’s always harlequin romance novels. My mom has boxs full of them.
@53 I got as far as your comment and have to say, “I agree”!
Although my libido has diminished significantly post-menopause, I am still turned on by both written and filmed porn, including animated. I very much enjoy gay porn (prefer watching men to women) and written, homoerotic slash fiction as well.
I don’t have to have visuals. I have a very active mental fantasy life, engaging in directed dreaming where I compose elaborate slash stories for myself. I have dabbled in writing them down, but find I am not particularly good at that. I’ve found many excellent writers online, thank goodness.
It was always hard to find any straight porn videos that appealed to me. As others here have said, 99.99% of straight video porn is still skewed towards the type of men who spent the most money on it. I used the past tense on purpose. I’m hoping wider online access and more women customers, the product will improve.
Perhaps most men do like that robot-like, generally degrading to women stuff to jackoff to? I just have a suspicion many would be more pleased with porn closer to something women would also like better.
I have always wished I was rich enough to start my own porn film business to create what pleases me – and see if my theory held up.
@#177 (NoCuteName): “I’m a woman and I’ve tried viagra. First of all, whether in men or women, viagra doesn’t affect libido; it affects blood flow. So if a man with no interest in sex takes it, it doesn’t give him the interest.”
The comment I was responding to was what makes for “universally arousing to men.” If his penis is turgid, I don’t think the guy you’re referring to is going to deny he’s aroused, which was what I was talking about.
As for your libido qualifier, yes, there are circumstances in which men with erections get frustrated.
@#177 (NoCuteName): “The biggest complaint is a low [female] libido, and increased blood flow does nothing for that.”
You seem to be confirming what I’ve been saying.
@#177 (NoCuteName): “I tried viagra not to try and overcome a dysfunction, but because I was curious about whether it would make my clit more swollen when aroused.
“All I can say is that in my case all the blood did gather in one place: my face, which got beet-red and hot for an hour or two. Like a good scientist, I tried viagra again to see if the results I got the first time were repeatable. It happened again.”
Well, guys’ faces get hot when they’re aroused too.
@116: I had the same experience as you; I long had a fantasy of having a couple of guys (double the cuddles plus double the cock – yay!), and was disappointed by the gangbang title. ‘group sex’ and ‘bicurious’ are a bit better. I’ve found the most evidence of the actors mutually enjoying each other in the ‘interracial’ category, although you have to suppress your annoyance that the guys are being objectified so much for their ‘big black cocks’. But since, like me, the actors don’t consider it taboo at all, they just see the scene as a chance to have sex with hot people, and tend to enjoy themselves. I found one gem where one of the guys started off by going down on the lady. She (missy monroe) was so turned on she was leaking a bit and left a puddle on the bed, and she showed how my fantasy of two cocks in the vagina is possible. I haven’t been able to find it again though. Somewhere on rawtube in the middle of all the lame and offensive stuff. What I really wanna see is a scene like that where the guys are hot for each other, and stealing the odd kiss over the woman’s shoulder. Mmmm…
I’d have to mark slash as the #1 thing that turns girls on but repulses guys. Erotica + romance + gayness = win. Even gay guys aren’t really into it.
Hey, and how about linking some actual porn women would be into instead of some blog/hand-holding site?
Oh, and by slash, I guess that also encompasses yaoi/boys love/whatever.
@184–beat me to it. I was gonna say slash fan fiction=girl porn. And believe me, almost all the women I know either watch or read porn (meaning, romance novels or fan fiction with the intention of getting off).
So, Dan, you prefer eclairs then?
@182 Missy Monroe is an enthusiastic performer of double penetration, and likes it enough to do it on porn sets during the breaks between filming. You can see this occasionally in her behind the scenes footage. If double vaginal penetration is your interest, there is a line of movies just for this called, oddly enough, Double Vag. Missy is on the cover for the first one, Double Vag #1. I can’t help you in terms of finding threesomes where the guys kiss each other, but if you find movies with Steve Holmes and Eric Everhard, they often kiss the women. This is especially true of Steve Holmes. Here is a link to Missy’s Videography, it will show you which scenes she has done with double penetration, double vag and so on. She is definitely a good person to start with when you look for these scenes because she likes it so much.
http://www.iafd.com/person.rme/perfid=Mi…
Ok, I’m a woman and I just want to go on the record to say that I like what is known as “male oriented porn”, and I like it alot. But as anonymously as possible. I am terrified…make that stark ravingly terrified, of the social stigma of admitting it. That is what I can’t handle. Men creepily assume that I want to have sex with them, and women throw it in my face. A friend who loaned a couple of tapes to me announced, to a large audience of friends, that I watched porn, and was his “porn buddy”. Whatever that means, I was not. Sooooo, I quickly learned to tiptoe around it, even with boyfriends (again, shocked reactions) and will NEVER publicly admit to it. For all I know, 30% of the female populace is just like me, but we’ll never know until the brutal social stigma eases up. And I sure as hell am not brave enough to do more than write this post.
@145 So the basic defense against lying for sex is “everyone does it”?
No, it’s a basic defense against rape, which is about reasonable consent. It doesn’t mean full disclosure otherwise the human race would die out.
If you want to redefine what rape means to include all lying, evasions, half-truths and unverifiable interpretations of what one person said to another, you’re in an impossible minefield. And you would have to accept that cases of fraud such as a woman failing to inform a man that a child might not be his – in which case he would unlikely wish to continue having sex with the woman but has been caused to do so by lies, are not only fraudulent but also rape.
Seriously, after all the multiple kinks that this site has mentioned over many years, it’s Romance Novels that get an ‘eww’?
For anyone that hasn’t read a romance novel since the 80’s when it was all Fabio all the time on the covers, the romance market has come a huge way. It’s not just historical or those crazy Harlequin books with titles like, “Prince’s Virgin Mistress’ secret baby”, Romance novels come in all genre’s – Suspense, Thriller, Paranormal, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Mystery, Comedy, Horror – I’m sure you get the point.
Also, digital publishing has opened up many niche markets, and that does include erotica and erotic romance. As an aside, M/M is huge in the erotic market and you can find many quality offerings if that is your interest.
As with any entertainment, some crap does indeed get through, and yes, the whole ‘Virgin Mistress’ segment of romance does still exist (why not, there is a market that enjoys it. Shouldn’t they be able to enjoy what brings a little kick to their life?) That said, anyone who simply dismisses Romance Novels out of hand is just being an elite snob with an “I’m better than this” type attitude, and seriously, since we are all on the Savage comment section, can any of us truly pull off that attitude?
personally, as a female in a loving relationship with a male, i have no problem with porn. as long as it’s in moderation. i live in a different state than my boyfriend so i need something to hold me over til i see him again. while i enjoy pics & vids sometimes, i much prefer erotic stories because you can imagine whatever you like about the people. it can conform to your turn-ons. my go-to site is lustylibrary.com but there are others. i think you should just find what you like 🙂
I’m a bisexual woman and “younger”, I’m 20. Romance novels SUCK. TOO MUCH PLOT and so poorly written. Same goes for almost all erotica. I just want a dick going into a pussy. I get turned on by sex, hardcore sex. I don’t get turned on by feeling that the man “desires” the woman other than he wants his dick in the pussy. Sex isn’t always about love, for me it’s mostly about SEX! I don’t project myself into the female’s body. And since I’m bi, I totally perv off the hot females. Big boobs, tight twats and ass, etc. Actually, since I’m in a relationship with a man right now, porn probably satisfies my yearning for female bodies. It was interesting reading most of the comments and only catching a few scattered comments that reflect how I feel about porn. Porn doesn’t disgust me unless it totally looks super exploitational (kiddie porn for example). Everyone has different things that turn them on. For me, I usually feel like I’m wired more like a dude, my boyfriend says I have the libido of three men! So hardcore porn works for me and not for others. Don’t get rid of it!
@188: except that she’s used titles like ‘filthy whore’, which totally ruins it for me. Calling me a whore is not a good way to ask for my money. Can’t they figure out that insulting a potential customer is bad marketing? This is the big problem with the porn industry. It’s incredibly sexist.
I love the people who are defending the woman who accused a man of rape, for lying to her to get into her pants. I have to wonder a few things, and would love it if these people would post their answers:
1) would you support the prosecution for rape, and jail time, of everyone who has told a lie to get sex? If so would you help me prosecute three women I had sex with? One told me she was unmarried; she was lying. Another told me she was STD-free; she had herpes. The third told me that she was a Unitarian, because she had misunderstood and thought I was; later she told me over drinks that she had no idea what a Unitarian was. I still have their contact information… I’m thinking of calling the police and accusing all three of rape. God it would be satisfying to see all three in jail . (Oh, excuse me, I’m sounding like that Israeli woman again.) At the very least I could get them labeled sex criminals.
2) Would you be just as happy to see a Jew convicted of rape if if he/she lies to an Arab about her ethnicity or religion? What, you wouldn’t? Funny thing… or do I detect the stench of Arab-hating in your postings…
3) I would love, love, LOVE to see a Jewish man or woman accuse an American Christian of rape in the same circumstances, and see an Israeli court deliver a guilty verdict. But that’ll happen when several hells freeze over.
4) While we’re passing ridiculous laws and expanding the definitions of rape to include everything short of sex without a notarized consent form, let’s not leave out the radical Vegans who have been insisting that eating eggs is a form of rape, presumably because the chicken that laid them didn’t give its written consent. (I am not exaggerating… as somebody or other once said, he who laughs has not yet heard the terrible news…)
About the Jewish woman, I can understand that she might feel upset, but really? Must we prosecute every man or woman who lies to a potential sex partner? What about once you’re in a relationship? I told my fiance that I don’t hate his cat. I totally hate his cat. Am I raping him every time we have sex?
The Arab man said that he was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious relationship, but the only thing he could have been prosecuted for is for saying he was Jewish. You can’t determine whether or not he was interested in a serious relationship. Maybe he was, but then he decided he didn’t like her anymore. Or maybe he was interested in a serious relationship someday, but at the moment was just playing around.
Suppose that, thirty years down the road, my fiance and I get divorced (because I’m hoping we’ll have gotten married by then. Thirty year engagements=not cool). In our wedding vows, we’re going to say the whole, “‘Til death do us part” thing. Does that mean that we’ve been raping each other for thirty years, because we said that we were going to be together until we died, but that turned out to be a lie? It’s just impossible to judge that kind of thing.
Don’t get me wrong, the guy’s a douche, but he’s not a rapist. And if we went around locking up all the douches in the world, I would be out of a job–our customers would all be in jail, and so would about half the managers–and then I wouldn’t be able to get Internet and read Savage Love.
Fan-fiction, Dan. Fan-fiction is women’s porn.
Are we really calling it yaoi? The last time I heard slash referred to that way was 5 years ago at least. Its a bit like hearing “Information superhighway.”
The thing I love about fanfiction is that theres so much diversity in it. With erotic novels theres going to be little plot and a ton of porn, with romance novels its going to be all (cheesy, terribly written) plot and little (cheesy, terribly written) porn. With fic, if you get in the right communities or read the right authors, you can find both kick ass stories and writing as well as amazing porn with every kink you could imagine. And, unlike literotica, there tend to be rec sites to tell you where the good stuff is (and its not adultfanfiction.net, oh god)
http://community.livejournal.com/newbieg… is a good place to get started
It seems a little odd to me that the readership of a Gay man’s sex advice column would fall victim to pre-prescribed notions of what “men” and “women” are like. I have a male friend in the sex trade who could tell you a lot of things women do (most commonly, ask him to pretend to be their son, or a kid they met in high school) that would repulse men and are external to their relationships.
Since women are supposedly more interested in emotional relationships than men ( who are incredibly oversexed in opposition to the apparently sexual drive-less women wandering around hating porn, men, and the entire thought of orgasm, which they will only endure if money is involved, or a ring if I am to understand these normative statements) I would suggest emotional relationships with other men as an alternative.
Hand holding, cheek kissing, snuggling up and watching a movie, even sleeping beside other naked men who are external to the “relationship”. There’s a great song about this “gay boyfriend” Youtube it. 😀
For the record, if I want to see a couple of crack whores fuck for money, I’ll go downtown and at least make a direct payment. I hear they even take debit….ha,ha.
Interestingly enough, historically women were viewed as so highly oversexed that one had to cover the table legs to ensure the wife wouldn’t shove everything in the house, in her. Women were dirty, filthy creatures constantly looking for their next orgasmic “fix” while men were civilized intelligent creatures, incapable of…sound familiar? Only backward?
By the Libertine revolution the world had realized that women, too, had a sexuality. In fact, ladies of the internet, if you are really interested in verbal pornography, with a female focus, I suggest looking up John Wilmot. Read “The Imperfect Enjoyment”, a premature ejaculation poem from simpler times when men weren’t pompous asses who were incapable of admitting their own flaws and the sexuality of women, and when women were human beings not fake princesses or little children on billboards. An excerpt:
“Then, with a thousand kisses wandering oer; my panting bosom: is there then no more? All this to love and rapture’s due: must we not pay a debt to pleasure, too?…but I, the most forlorn, lost man alive, to show my wish’d obedience vainly strive”
Gets me off. But hey, I’m not ashamed that the thought of an adoring-but-helpless-to-please man in a society where women are portrayed as helpless, hapless, sexless, and external, turns me the hell on.
God people, if you’re going to have a discussion, stop being so damned superficial. And Dan, you are the most conservative gay man I’ve ever heard of. Cupcakes? wtf?
Who gives a crap about porn? My fiancee and I have a lot of sex, and when we can’t access eachother we find a private place like a bathroom and text eachother nude porn. Or he sends me a picture of himself in the gym shower, while I’m in class. Does nobody enjoy their own relationship, or have a modicum of creativity anymore? Are we really so superficial that delving the full depths of another human being has been dumbed down to finding someone with a different pair of tits who we can rub ourselves up against? Has the entire complicated beauty and intimacy of sex been reduced to a bodilly function for you fuckheads? Gawwd!
@200 Western womens’ diet changed considerably in the last century or two. It changed the typical female libido from much stronger than a man’s to much weaker than a man’s. That’s the reason for that historical puzzle.
@198 Jon/Stephen 🙂