I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.

Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L.R.

I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I’m not. Gay kids are dying. So let’s try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.

A question: Do you “support” atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there’s no “Christian” movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?

Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.

And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not “sinners.” Gay and lesbian children.

Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of “faithful Christians,” and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we’re seeing the fruits of it: dead children.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false “followers of Christ” they call Mom and Dad.

I am engaged to a man whose sexual orientation is somewhat confusing to me.

A few months ago, I discovered transgender porn on his computer. When I asked him about it, he said he just watches all kinds of porn “just to watch it.” That sounded like total bullshit to me—and it was proved to be total bullshit when I discovered that he watches ONLY this type of porn. I also recently discovered a letter he had composed a few years back to another man asking him to “hook up.” The letter also states that my fiancé had a girlfriend, and since “discretion is very important” to him, he could only hook up when she was out of town.

I can deal with somebody being bisexual. I have bisexual fantasies myself. However, I can’t deal with someone lying to himself and to me, and being unfaithful. Sadly, I can’t really make this guy confess to me that he is bi. When I tried, he simply told me, “You are so blind.” What does that mean?

I really don’t want to dump the guy. I love him. My question is, I guess, what the fuck do I do? I feel like crazy bitch supreme trying to get this out of him, but it’s impossible not to think about.

Bitchy Girlfriend

There’s nothing to be confused about: Your fiancé is very clearly bisexual. Gay men just aren’t into chicks-with-dicks porn; that’s a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.

So why can he be open about his cocksuckery with a complete stranger—that dude he sent the letter that you “discovered”—but not with you?

It’s a tired cliché, I realize, and I shy away from it for that reason, but in this case the shoe fits: Your fiancé has a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He finds it easier to be open with someone he doesn’t care about and is unlikely to see ever again precisely because he doesn’t care about that person and isn’t going to see him again. If you or the other people in his life he’s close to knew, he fears you would see him as damaged or inferior because that’s how he sees himself.

So, yep, a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He’s not entirely responsible for contracting this malady—our homophobic culture is the disease vector here—but, as an adult, he is responsible for working through it, for overcoming it, for being truthful with himself and the people he claims to love.

If he can’t be honest with you—the snoop he claims to love—about his sexual orientation, and if being cheated on is a deal breaker for you (and he will cheat on you), don’t marry him.

I’m a loud fucker, just like the partner of the woman who wrote in recently. With my consent, my partner uses a pillow to dampen my screams, so I don’t have to worry I’ll piss off the neighbors.

Lesbians Do Scream

It’s all fun and games—loud fun, ear-splitting games—until someone accidentally asphyxiates a screamer. But thanks for sharing, LDS.

mail@savagelove.net

377 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. Well said, Dan! And to LR: When you love people in spite of their “sin”, it’s second-rate love if it can be called “love” at all. It’s forced tolerance, at best. When you really believe that we’re all equally deserving of dignity in our less than perfect state (“sinful”, in your parlance)and that another’s sin is truly no worse than your own… Well, if those were your true beliefs, then you’d be worried about having the “other” finding you lovable, or at least worthy of true tolerance, complete with– gasp!– full civil rights. They day you start talking about whether you’re worthy to be around gays, then you’ll be in a position to talk about Christianity. If you are interested in seeing how one Christian owned his homophobia because he understood that it was a flaw in his Christianity, read the chapter called “The Leper” in “Radical Compassion: Finding Christ In The Heart Of The Poor” by Gary Smith, SJ. Yes, that stands for Society of Jesus. In other words, one Christian who wasn’t afraid to search his soul on this issue was a Jesuit priest. And a heterosexual, to boot.

    Audrey Rasmusson
    Pittsburgh, PA

  3. Re Comment 102: I agree. Progressive Christians are not part of the problem and it isn’t right to lump them in with homo-hostile Christians. In fact, people who are willing to state that full civil rights and social acceptance for gays is part of Christianity are part of the solution. They are taking the “justified by Christianity” justification for homophobia out from under the — ahem — “Christians with a K” types.

    Audrey Rasmusson
    Pittsburgh, PA

  4. I’m just a 46-year-old father of two in the Midwest whose been married 22 years. I’ve been reading Dan for a few years because it’s simply the best written advice column in the world, and Dan’s response to LR is all the proof I need to make that argument.

    I go to church on Sundays. It’s important to me and I don’t feel the need to explain that here. I believe in God because I believe in love, compassion and justice — ideals that have certainly evolved, but did not just pop into existence. I believe people who love one another must be allowed to love one another, because it is the greatest gift we have been given and can give — to our spouses, to our children and to the world.

    I know “the church” is part of the problem, but please do not lump me in with LR and friends because we share space from time to time. There are many like me — a little timid, kind of confused, but inspired by Dan, It Gets Better and very much wanting to do what’s right.

    Help us to help make a difference. Or don’t. I will find my own way to change things. But please don’t piss all over us because we call ourselves “christians.” Nobody has it all figured out, whatever labels they wear or pin on others (those who think they do — now there is the problem). Besides (do I really need to point this out?) it’s got to be about more than labels.

  6. Re: LR– while I agree that anyone opposed to marriage equality necessarily sees LGBT people as “less than,” I don’t agree that that viewpoint is “partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children.”

    Like me and many others, Dan makes a lot of anti-fat comments. Are we partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable overweight children, who are also regularly bullied and who also attempt suicide at higher rates?

    I’m not equating obesity– which is demonstrably harmful– with homosexuality– which is not. My point is that a negative viewpoint toward members of a particular group (whether justified or not) does not necessarily make one culpable for bullying and physical violence by others toward members of the same group.

  7. Dan expresses it so well. Most Xians don’t deserve any courtesy at all, given their history throughout the world and history and the current trend of hatred and ugliness. If only they would actually follow their religion instead of perverting it to suit their bigotry. Go read John Boswell’s books, and don’t expect me to do your research for you. And shut up. And fuck you. No, seriously, fuck you. And, Dan, thank you… again.

  8. Remember, the christian church would not even allow marriages between men and women till the late 1600’s. Women were deemed too “unclean”, and the church wanted all of the the mans resources willed to the church when they died. Part of the reason for the witchunts, and desecrations of the springs and other pagan shrines was to stop the handfastings.
    It is still that way, the christian church would have dissolved in this country if not for the free labor of women, lavished upon the same people that they debase, de-classe, and denigrate.

    No matter the nice people that say they belong to a church, if you are part of the gang, you are a gang-banger.

    Deal with it, or allow women to be ordained.

  10. Dan has been very outspoken in his belief that not all Christians are bad. In a recent column, he mentioned the people out there who have religious objections to homosexuality, but nonetheless support the legalization of same-sex marriage. He said that he’ll gladly mow their lawns.

    If he’ll say that about people who support equal rights for gays, while maintaining anti-gay religious beliefs, then I think it’s VERY safe to say that he doesn’t have a problem with people whose religious beliefs ARE gay-friendly. And who belong to gay-friendly churches, and recognize the separation of church and state.

    Dan, I wish you’d mentioned that when you responded to LR. A huge part of LR’s letter consisted of complaints that you were attacking all Christians. While you correctly pointed out that Christians aren’t the victim in the anti-gay bullying debate, you also should have pointed out that you’re not criticizing all Christians – you’re just criticizing the bigoted ones.

  11. I’m always saddened and disgusted by ‘Christians’ who chose to focus nearly exclusively on the Old Testament.

    This is what Jesus said in the New, and although I’m a recovering Catholic humanist now myself, I’ll have to go with Vonnegut on this one:

    “For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course that’s Moses, not Jesus. I haven’t heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere.
    “Blessed are the merciful” in a courtroom? “Blessed are the peacemakers” in the Pentagon? Give me a break!”

    And because it deserves to be emphasized:

    and he began to teach them saying:
    “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
    Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
    Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
    Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
    Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
    Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called sons of God.

    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

  12. You know not all Christians are mocking/hurting/tormenting gays, right? Some ARE gay. I have even seen GAY Christian pastors!

    You missed the point of the Christian’s letter: you are being a bigot by lumping the assholes in with the good guys. Be against bigots, don’t be one.

    I also agree with #112

  13. Oops…lumping porn genres to stereotypes seems anti-Savage. Trust me gays (as a group) watch porn. ALL porn. Tranny, straight, gay, and oh lord EVERYTHING else.

  14. @27 What you wrote was really twisted, and difficult for me to sympathize with.

    …….how could you possibly prefer the couch to the bed??

    (Welcome to Slog, fellow TimBits eater!)

  17. I’m so very sorry Christians, but I have to agree with the haters. The Christian religion is really no different than, say, a bike gang. The only difference is that it’s members are far too vast in number to really control. To say you are apart of a group but disagree with what it believes in would usually mean getting kicked out, or fired upon. But in religion there’s no limiting free thinking because you can’t dissuade what someone truly believes. I have Christian friends who are only really Christian because it was how they were raised, and they know nothing else. Lets go back to my bike gang metaphor. If a person gets beaten up by a gang of people, or that gang continually harasses the town that person lives in, then the entire gang is going to be shunned upon. Just because the “good bike gang member” doesn’t feel the same way, it doesn’t mean they are any less to blame. They are the reason the gang exists: by swearing their allegiance to sed gang.

    Ok, so maybe you have good values, and you truly don’t think that way. At what point am I required to care? As long as you call yourself a Christian, you will be associated with them. Simple. You cannot be a Christian and demand individualism. HAHA! Thats funny!

    IMHNSHO (In my honestly not so humble opinion), in the end, religion and normalization have been and will continue to be the fire that fuels problems in the world. I am not saying, however, it’s what starts it.

    Why does religion have to exist anyways? Religion, ultimately, is the deciding factor to what’s right and wrong. The problem is that it isn’t always right, but far too relied upon. But it’s impossible to think of religion as not existing. Humans don’t think that way.

    Cruel irony. I am Homosexual and Atheist too…just throwing that out there.

  19. @108 I Hate Screennames:

    Yes, your anti-fat comments contribute to an anti-fat culture. They help to cement the idea that it is natural and right to view fat individuals as ugly and disgusting. Even Dan said in Skipping to Gomorrah that views on physical attractiveness are social and cultural.

    Your “soft” bigotry against fat people, your patronizing attitude (“it’s demonstrably unhealthy”) which is supposed to make your bigotry okay because you just care about people making unhealthy choices, these are exactly what help create a fat-hating, fat-phobic spectrum, with horrible bullies at one end, and you somewhere in the middle, and people who think “fatties” are “gross” privately but are too “polite” to voice it in public at the other end.

    This is what Dan is talking about with gay people, too. Your “soft” bigotry naturalizes all bigotry, and kids aren’t the most subtle or nuanced creatures, so what they’re likely to hear in your message, and in quasi-tolerant Christians’ messages about gay people, is that fatties and gays are classifiably different types of people and it’s not okay to be one of them.

    Now the problem is that if sexuality and homosociality exists on natural spectrum, as well as body type, and kids start to worry that they’re one of the incorrect and unacceptable “them,” they are going to lash out at a more obvious “them” as a means to feel more like the acceptable, desirable “us”–Church group, parents, popular kids, whatever. What better way to mark your belonging to the in-group than to persecute someone more obviously in the out-group?

    So nature–our sexualities, our bodies–is composed of spectra, but our opinions tend to fall into harmful and divisive binaries, and this creates a scramble to belong to one side of the divide, and to be seen as belonging to one side. When people feed the view that one side is better–and that there are even distinct sides–they fuck over nature, and fuck over our children.

    So, fuck your fat-phobia, and fuck the kind of “tolerance” that wrings its hands at kids’ deaths without becoming enraged and doing something to change the state of affairs in this bigoted, awful country.

    I Hate Screennames, you ARE contributing to the bullying of ‘fat people.’ You ARE contributing to the social conditioning that makes people with a higher-than-average BMI feel depressed, lonely, unattractive and unlovable. And you ARE part of the cultural force that drives even people with doctor-approved BMIs to constantly watch their weight and worry about LOOKING too fat. So fuck you.

    And fuck any ‘tolerant’ Christians who don’t take the state of things to be ample evidence that they need to take over the leadership of their churches and congregations NOW, and take the megaphones out of the hands of people whose words do violence to others.

  20. @108 I Hate Screennames:

    Yes, your anti-fat comments contribute to an anti-fat culture. They help to cement the idea that it is natural and right to view fat individuals as ugly and disgusting. Even Dan said in Skipping to Gomorrah that views on physical attractiveness are social and cultural.

    Your “soft” bigotry against fat people, your patronizing attitude (“it’s demonstrably unhealthy”) which is supposed to make your bigotry okay because you just care about people making unhealthy choices, these are exactly what help create a fat-hating, fat-phobic spectrum, with horrible bullies at one end, and you somewhere in the middle, and people who think “fatties” are “gross” privately but are too “polite” to voice it in public at the other end.

    This is what Dan is talking about with gay people, too. Your “soft” bigotry naturalizes all bigotry, and kids aren’t the most subtle or nuanced creatures, so what they’re likely to hear in your message, and in quasi-tolerant Christians’ messages about gay people, is that fatties and gays are classifiably different types of people and it’s not okay to be one of them.

    Now the problem is that if sexuality and homosociality exists on natural spectrum, as well as body type, and kids start to worry that they’re one of the incorrect and unacceptable “them,” they are going to lash out at a more obvious “them” as a means to feel more like the acceptable, desirable “us”–Church group, parents, popular kids, whatever. What better way to mark your belonging to the in-group than to persecute someone more obviously in the out-group?

    So nature–our sexualities, our bodies–is composed of spectra, but our opinions tend to fall into harmful and divisive binaries, and this creates a scramble to belong to one side of the divide, and to be seen as belonging to one side. When people feed the view that one side is better–and that there are even distinct sides–they fuck over nature, and fuck over our children.

    So, fuck your fat-phobia, and fuck the kind of “tolerance” that wrings its hands at kids’ deaths without becoming enraged and doing something to change the state of affairs in this bigoted, awful country.

    I Hate Screennames, you ARE contributing to the bullying of ‘fat people.’ You ARE contributing to the social conditioning that makes people with a higher-than-average BMI feel depressed, lonely, unattractive and unlovable. And you ARE part of the cultural force that drives even people with doctor-approved BMIs to constantly watch their weight and worry about LOOKING too fat. So fuck you.

    And fuck any ‘tolerant’ Christians who don’t take the state of things to be ample evidence that they need to take over the leadership of their churches and congregations NOW, and take the megaphones out of the hands of people whose words do violence to others.

  21. It seems that the whole chicks with dicks porn thing has been getting a huge ramp up in popularity and exposure of late. Been noticing more and more of it around and gotta say some of it, if the chick is beautiful and she can get hard and come – is pretty damn hot! I see a bright future for this particular niche of the industry.

  22. 108, 121

    Saying that being fat is demonstrably unhealthy is not the same thing as being a bigot. It’s not correct to say “any fat person is less healthy than any slim person” but it’s silly to argue with “being fat is less healthy than being slim”. That opinion doesn’t make me a bigot; what would make me a bigot would be saying that fat people don’t deserve to get married, or walk around in public, or whatever (those are *not* my opinions!).

    (a) thinking that fat is unhealthy is not bigotry, and therefore
    (b) the fat argument is not a good analogy of the gay bigotry discussion

  24. Thank you Dan, for once again stating the unvarnished truth as you see it. Keep speaking out. I came to the conclusion some years ago that Jesus had tried to teach his followers FORGIVNESS above all else. He pointed out time and time again through his parables that ANYONE who thought they were better or more deserving than any other person were destined to be judged by their own criteria- measured by their own yardstick. Jesus routinely accepted as brothers and sisters the worst offenders in his society: Prostitutes, drunks, tax collectors (read, political sellouts) the diseased,deformed, heretics, and Romans- that is- anyone who got his message that God sees you as a worthy person, and all you had to do was accept yourself, forgive your own imperfections, and do the same for others. He was especially critical of those who hurt children- even with words. So I dont call myself a Christian. Because I believe in the teachings of this man named Jesus, and I see very few Christians who follow his teachings.

  25. my response to Dan’s response to LR:
    Thank you Dan, for once again stating the unvarnished truth as you see it. Keep speaking out. I came to the conclusion some years ago that Jesus had tried to teach his followers FORGIVNESS above all else. He pointed out time and time again through his parables that ANYONE who thought they were better or more deserving than any other person were destined to be judged by their own criteria- measured by their own yardstick. Jesus routinely accepted as brothers and sisters the worst offenders in his society: Prostitutes, drunks, tax collectors (read, political sellouts) the diseased,deformed, heretics, and Romans- that is- anyone who got his message that God sees you as a worthy person, and all you had to do was accept yourself, forgive your own imperfections, and do the same for others. He was especially critical of those who hurt children- even with words. So I dont call myself a Christian. Because I believe in the teachings of this man named Jesus, and I see very few Christians who follow his teachings.

  27. Ah Dan, yet again you found someone to exploit. “observant Christians”, suicidal gays, anythings fodder for Dan’s self-promotion.

  28. Not all Christian churches are equal. The church I go to does not condemn or hate. We teach and practice love. Are there people in my congregation that are hateful and wrong? Yes. Is that my congregation as a whole? No.
    I am a gay Christian. I believe that God is love. I have been taught to love others as Jesus loves me.
    Alienating an entire group of people by saying that all Christians are hateful, bigoted, suicide-causing people won’t help your cause. Because we’re not all the same.

  29. What really kills me at the end of the first letter is that “oh so loving Christian” TELLS Dan Savage to be more careful with his words. Doesn’t suggest, doesn’t request – instructs. If that is not indicative of self-righteous ass-hattery, I don’t know what is.

  30. I’m with 15. Has she brought up playing with a strap on? He might like that. My boyfriend isn’t exclusively into transgirls, but he does like them, I think in part because it’s a “safe” way to play with cock. . . and I swear, all guys, gay or straight, are obsessed with cock. Plus, he likes having his ass played with, which I think is a somewhat separate thing–how many transgirls have reliably working cocks?–but you might as well bring it up and see if he’d be into it, as an extra fun thing for you guys to do if nothing else.

    “that’s a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.”

    I like a sexy transgirl or transguy (Hello, Buck Angel. Yummm. . . Usually not attracted to super muscle-bound guys, either, but. . . um. . . Buck is HOT. Heh.) and I’m female.

    Also, thank you Dan for knocking holes into that woman’s letter. You basically said what I could never quite articulate.

    @16: “I have respect for anyone whose faith leads them to do the humane thing.”

    Me, too.

    @25: “There’s nothing in the mail to indicate the lady in question was the girlfriend he cheated on. I think we’ve all been in relationships that were just not terribly serious and hence not exclusive. Marriage isn’t like that.”

    I didn’t take it as her being the one that was cheated on either, but how soundly would you sleep knowing your boyfriend/girlfriend cheated on their previous partner? What makes you so special that he/she wouldn’t cheat on YOU, you know?

    “people kill themselves all the time, for all sorts of reasons. “

    Yeah, but these are KIDS that are feeling suicidally hopeless and being BULLIED to DEATH.

  31. I’m with 15. Has she brought up playing with a strap on? He might like that. My boyfriend isn’t exclusively into transgirls, but he does like them, I think in part because it’s a “safe” way to play with cock. . . and I swear, all guys, gay or straight, are obsessed with cock. Plus, he likes having his ass played with, which I think is a somewhat separate thing–how many transgirls have reliably working cocks?–but you might as well bring it up and see if he’d be into it, as an extra fun thing for you guys to do if nothing else.

    “that’s a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.”

    I like a sexy transgirl or transguy (Hello, Buck Angel. Yummm. . . Usually not attracted to super muscle-bound guys, either, but. . . um. . . Buck is HOT. Heh.) and I’m female.

    Also, thank you Dan for knocking holes into that woman’s letter. You basically said what I could never quite articulate.

    @16: “I have respect for anyone whose faith leads them to do the humane thing.”

    Me, too.

    @25: “There’s nothing in the mail to indicate the lady in question was the girlfriend he cheated on. I think we’ve all been in relationships that were just not terribly serious and hence not exclusive. Marriage isn’t like that.”

    I didn’t take it as her being the one that was cheated on either, but how soundly would you sleep knowing your boyfriend/girlfriend cheated on their previous partner? What makes you so special that he/she wouldn’t cheat on YOU, you know?

    “people kill themselves all the time, for all sorts of reasons. “

    Yeah, but these are KIDS that are feeling suicidally hopeless and being BULLIED to DEATH.

  34. I LOVED the answer to the 1st letter, I’m an atheist, living in a majority catholic country (that legalized gay marriage earlier this year!!!), and I am so sick of religious people (be it catholic, jehovas witnees, whatever) talking crap about any subject… not just homosexuality, I can’t explain the aount of criticism I have received for not baptizing my daughter, not wanting to send her to catholic schools.. Even though catholic schoools are traditionally better here, I refuse to send her to a lace that when gay marriage was legalized, sent home with every kid from kindy up a pamphlet saying that the only true family is a mother, a father and kids!!! Not to mention an article I read last week about a prminent catholic school making the boys that wanted to start tere sign an agreement to not “turn gay” as a condition of being accepted…
    SO many religious people think they are better than the rest of us just for being religious, what happened to “love thy neighbour”? Not to mention the atrocities mankind has committed sincce forever in name of religion.
    Sorry for such a long post, I’m passionate about this subject!

  35. I’ve honestly never seen the argument before today that “good Christians” should be held responsible for the actions of the crazy ones, or the ones that have been dead for 2000 years. I totally understand where it’s coming from, but that’s like me (being of Jewish descent) saying that all Germans suck cause a while back there were Nazis, and the people didn’t fight back hard enough.

    I don’t know that I’d call myself Christian, but I believe in God. I wasn’t really raised anything, and I’ve explored other religions, but what I believe is what I believe. I started going to church a few years back, and went right up until my bible study teacher said something about gays never forming long term relationships (it was all about sex). I stood up, said, “Sorry, but that’s insane.” explained that I’d just had lunch with a man who’s been with his partner for 25 years, and I left. So no, I’m not “supporting” anything. Just because I’m religious doesn’t mean I’m dropping money into collection plates and calmly watching a few morons pick and choose from a book what’s convenient to believe and try to ruin peoples lives. You can be Christian without going to or supporting a church. I certainly don’t think I’ll ever find God in one. Not my God, anyway.

    I’ve marched in parades, organized a day of silence back in high school, and “debated” with my ultra-Christian MIL until I was blue in the face. The only “recognition” I’ve ever sought is from my Christian-raised fiance, who’s come a heck long way from the man who voted for Bush purely because he had conservative values (in fact, he’s nearly as outspoken as I am nowadays) and in seeing my much-younger siblings grow into people who’ll speak out when it’s the right thing to do. I believe in God, though, so I’m not a good enough ally? I understand where the sentiment is coming from, and it’s not going to change who I am or what I believe is the right thing to do, but ouch.

    Anybunnies, I’m not the best at putting my thoughts down on paper, so good luck on reading the babbling mess I just wrote. 🙂

  36. Excellent, excellent, and even MORE excellent. I’m happy to read that you pull no punches when slugging away at these impossible people. They need to be STOPPED, not given a forum that ultimately leads to kids’ deaths. That goes for their damn fundy parents, too. I have this running on Suite 101:

    http://www.suite101.com/content/are-you-…

    Keep up the good fight, and best regards and hugs to you both !!

  37. @121: Thank you, that was exactly the kind of nonsense I was trying to incite. So if my kid started getting obese, I should throw up my hands and accept that we are all God’s beautiful creations. Because encouraging him to lose weight would send the bigoted message that being obese is bad, and thus I’d be responsible for bullying everywhere. Got it.

    @124: I agree that opposition to obesity is not bigotry, but I don’t see how that distinction matters when discussing the link between a negative attitudes and bullying. Are you saying that the collateral bullying damage is acceptable if your opinion is justified?

    If so, I don’t see how that’s going to convince the anti-gays. They really do believe that homosexuality is bad, and thus they will similarly accept the collateral bullying damage. I’ve long argued that religious people can think whatever they want to think, so long as they don’t seek to impose their religious laws on anyone else. Saying that they can’t believe something (they think) the Bible tells them to believe attacks their religion directly, which does not strike me as a winning approach.

    And in truth, any argument that says people can’t even think something makes me squeamish. It’s a little too Orwellian for my tastes.

  38. I think the Apostle Paul said it best when he said that Christianity is like having a great, big, blue-veined cock. You know, a real Louisville Slugger. That is to say: it’s wonderful! But you shouldn’t wag it around in public, or beat people over the head with it, and you definitely should not cram it down a child’s throat.

  39. This Philosophy nerd (see: useless;friendless) applauds your very succinct detailed and properly ordered reasoning. Perhaps the most fantastic point was the idea of bullying abstractly. Even if I didn’t agree (which I do), I would have enjoyed reading that because of how excellently argued it was.

  40. Jesus taught us to love, love your neighbour as you love yourself, I am quite afraid that some people take this seriously, they hate themselves and as a result show hate to others, it is easier to relocate the shame you feel about yourself to someone else than to face your own demons. As a pastor I remember a case where a friend of mine preached tolerance for all people, some good Christians left this church and went to a neighbouring one, I was quite impressed when their new pastor “came out”. I have the whole thing figured out, when I am perfect I will show up to offer to tell tell you what to do, in the meantime I’ll use what Jesus taught to try and make myself a better person and the world a better place, you know, I’m pretty sure you are trying likewise

  41. @124 Ak, @108/139

    Indeed, being extremely overweight causes more health problems than being at an average bodyweight–almost always. Being extremely underweight, though, has even more dire, and by far more immediate, health threats. Obviously you don’t get the “anti-slim” argument in America because we have an obesity trend. Even people undernourished in this country can be obese because they might get as many or more calories than they need, but the food they eat is so fucking terrible that they exhibit signs of undernourishment! We have a big food problem in this country, and it hurts poor people the most.

    But, that being said, you can be a “little” too skinny visibly and it might translate into more than a “little” too skinny medically–people with average or somewhat higher than average BMIs are actually said now, scientifically, to live longer and have fewer heart problems than those on the low end of average or under-average.

    So it is not ridiculous to argue that being slim is less healthy than being “fat”–if by “fat” you mean what we visibly take to be overweight in this culture, which can be someone of even a normal BMI!

    So let the doctors and scientists tell you who is “too fat” to be healthy. Do you see someone who looks like they weigh 400 pounds? Yeah, they’ve probably got weight-related health problems: joint issues, back issues, cardiovascular issues. But why is it your place to care? They probably have a doctor. They’ve probably already heard it all.

    We don’t have socialized medicine, so that’s not a real issue here. Emergency rooms, sure, but almost none of that is overweight people having overweight-related health crises.

    So 108/139, your “anti-fat” shit is bigotry, and my response isn’t ridiculous. If your child starts to get obese, by all means, that is your business. Talk to your doctor about how to put the darling little so-and-so on an effective diet, but ASK, first, if the kid is really medically obese and in medical danger…just in case your bigoted, fat-phobic eyes are registering a slightly-higher-than-average BMI–nothing to worry about–as clinical obesity (something to worry about).

    And, no, you do not want to send the message that being obese is “bad” any more than you want to send the message that having any other medical condition is “bad.” Medical conditions are something to be worked with in order to help the person suffering from them–not something for you to go around judging as “bad.”

    Now, do you want your kid at a healthy BMI (which differs from person to person) because you hate the way fat people look, or because you want your kid to have the healthiest future possible?

    Nothing wrong with the second one, and EVERYTHING wrong with the first. And your concern should probably stop at your own child. Don’t make public “anti-fat” comments, you little beautiful snowflake of God you: they’re not helping anyone.

  42. seriously…can we make a TShirt that says “Magic Sky Friend Jesus” and sell it to benefit The Trevor Project?

    genius phrase.

    Thanks Dan!!!

  43. Dude, fitness is about how well your body works. I take African dance. I’m average weight, and I’m in class with a lot of fat women who are more flexible than me, can dance longer than me, have better coordination than me. That means their muscles, hearts, lungs and nerves are all in better shape than mine. And yeah, they are fat. Fatty fat fatsos in glowing, vibrant health. So check yourself before you wreck yourself, ok?

  45. @53, and anyone else who thinks equating judgment against christianity is equal to judgment against a person’s sexuality (or whatever the proper term is)

    People CHOOSE their religion and participate in it voluntarily.

    That cannot be said for your personal sexual procilivities.

    I also kind of wish Dan had mentioned that to LR1, but he nailed it anyway!

  46. @53, and anyone else who thinks equating judgment against christianity is equal to judgment against a person’s sexuality (or whatever the proper term is)

    People CHOOSE their religion and participate in it voluntarily.

    That cannot be said for your personal sexual procilivities.

    I also kind of wish Dan had mentioned that to LR1, but he nailed it anyway!

  47. how can americans be so brilliant, like you dan, and so fucking stupid, like religious fools?? Is this what democracy means? Argh! I am just grateful that your words get written and read, and you arent sent to jail for 11 years… Give the nobel prize to dan!

  48. how can americans be so brilliant, like you dan, and so fucking stupid, like religious fools?? Is this what democracy means? Argh! I am just grateful that your words get written and read, and you arent sent to jail for 11 years… Give the nobel prize to dan!

  49. @143, 145: Sigh. I’m using obesity to make a point about the flaw in Dan’s logic. Stop reading from your fat acceptance movement scripts and listen to what I’m actually saying.

    First, there are two levels of acceptance that you seem to be compacting together: legal acceptance and social acceptance. I think we all agree that everyone– be they white, black, gay, straight, fat, or thin– is entitled to the same level of legal acceptance. That means everyone should be able to marry a person of their choosing, everyone should be protected from unjust discrimination, everyone should receive equal pay for equal work, etc.

    Where we part ways is at social acceptance. Everyone is not entitled to the same level of social acceptance, because people can and should be able to socialize with whomever they damn well please. If I don’t like or don’t want to be friends with fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets, that’s my choice and I’m entitled to it (though perhaps I should learn to be more open minded). And if the collective effect of many people’s choices is that fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets have less friends or are seen as less socially desirable, then that’s the price we pay for living in a free society. If I can’t choose who I like or don’t like, then I don’t know what “freedom” means.

    Second, there’s a level of courtesy that should be expected of people in a civilized society. That means that even if I don’t like fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets, that doesn’t give me license to be rude to them, much less bully them or encourage bullying them. Of course, I should raise my kid to treat others with the same level of courtesy.

    Third, a person who doesn’t like fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets doesn’t necessarily approve of them being bullied to death. That I have a preference for thin people, atheists, college graduates, whites, Democrats, straights, Americans, or basketball players doesn’t mean I want fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets to die. Nor does it make me an accomplice to their suicides.

    Thus, the problem with Dan’s argument– and yours– is the attempt to use suicides to strongarm people into socially accepting gays and fat people (or Mormons, Republicans, etc.). “You have to accept everyone,” the argument goes, “otherwise kids learn it’s OK to disapprove of fat people, Mormons, rednecks, blacks, Republicans, gays, Canadians, or midgets, and thus they learn its OK to bully, and thus they cause some kids to commit suicide, and that’s your fault.”

    No, it isn’t. Everyone makes social choices, kids will always bully, and the way to stop bullycide is to teach kids how to behave like decent human beings, not to teach them to love everyone equally.

    Now to the extent Dan is arguing that the lack of legal acceptance for gays sends a particularly strong message about them being “less than”– a message that is not transmitted about fat people– and thus a particularly strong incentive for kids to bully LGBT kids, then I’m on board with that. But I get off the train once it states that we all need to socially accept everyone.

  50. In regards to that first letter, fucking amen. My gay friend recently shared a note he got from his cousin [he had been posting all the articles about gay teens committing suicide]. That note? Said that they wouldn’t have done it if Jesus was in their lives and that it was their decision to be gay. o.O He tore that cousin a new one, but holy fuck…THIS is what leads to LGBT suicides. How can they “have Jesus in their lives” if in the same breath, they’re being told how wrong and sinful they are for who they ARE?

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