Savage Love

1. 247 and others:
   “which prudent and thoughtful people enact before opening a marriage/relationship”

   I see (and agree with) your point, but most people are neither prudent nor thoughtful. Especially when it comes to sex. (If they were, Dan would be out of a job, and none of us would find this amusing/entertaining). It’s not malicious; it is sadly normal.

   Regarding those that recommend therapy, which seems to be at least 75% of the posters, here’s my take. Even if you ignore the fact that nobody (not husband, not wife, not boyfriend) is going to show up at a therapist’s office tomorrow, therapy won’t change attitudes and behavior without insight. Insight is tough, and doesn’t come quickly or cheaply. Sometimes it doesn’t come at all.

   Therapy is not a goal in and of itself, a short-term fix or a means to buy time before a crisis; first you buy time, then you go into therapy. Going into therapy demonstrates the intent to resolve a particular psychodynamic conflict and make progress on a specific goal, but shouldn’t and can’t be confused with actually making progress on this goal. It’s disingenuous, dishonest, and possibly dangerous to assume otherwise.

2. I’ve seen a somewhat similar situation to PTSD’s in my life. My ex-husband’s first wife was raped. After that she couldn’t stand to have sex with him and she refused to work on the situation. She wanted an open relationship with him, that was essentially just a pass to have casual sex with randoms. Eventually he took her up on it, started seeing me and then they broke up officially. It is fucked up that the husband and the assailant are somehow linked in PTSD’s mind. But it looks clear to me from the letter that she’s already let her husband go emotionally. Maybe it’s time to do it legally as well. For the record my husband’s ex wife has remarried, has three kids and seems really happy. I personally think she fell out of love with him and just didn’t have the balls to break it off, especially since she was very vulnerable and he is a totally supportive, stand up guy. Maybe when PTSD gets a little better in her head she’ll figure it out and put the poor guy out of his misery.

3. What’s really cute here is the posters thinking that they are going to have a debate with Shakesville alumni. It’s pretty much the female-pos/male-neg counterpart of the “bitchez are always wrong” MRAs. One of their writers (PortlyDyke) made the mistake of doing a post on the fact that men have feelings too, and was pretty much howled out for it. They’re set in their ways, label-throwing orthodoxy-sniffers. They’re entitled to their views and lives but you’re wasting your time thinking that you’re going to have a debate.

4. To Seeking Unrestrained Bitch
   keep looking for that unicorn we are out there!!!
   we are ellusive, but well worth the look!

   good luck honey!

5. @246, @251: PTSD uses “I” or “me” over twenty times in her letter. She uses a third-person construction once, when she is trying to relate her specific situation to the general condition of being the victim of a sexual assault. I’m not really seeing a lot of significance in that.

6. Alright, I’ve looked around and I’m coming up blank. What the fuck is a unicorn?

7. If you ask me PTSD’s letter is a very good illustration of why *open relationships* DO NOT WORK.

   This person has a (former) partner (who allegedly committed the assault), a boyfriend, AND a husband?? Does this slut have a JOB? Does (s)he do HOUSEWORK? Or does (s)he just spend every waking moment in bed or bent over the nearest chair for anyone with a stiff prick?

   Disgusting.

8. http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2010…

9. For all the gay football fans. Read to the end.

   http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2010…

10. @257

    Something that doesn’t exist.

11. I know I am at odds with Dan here, but I am with Dr. Drew. Open marriages are a recipe for disaster. That is what DATING is for.

    /curmudgeon

12. @256 I was pointing out to 246 why emotionally traumatized people talk in the third person

13. “PTSD did write in because she wanted to know what to do about HER feelings and her HUSBAND’s feelings.”

    Very well put, @244 (Roadflare).

    I wished some of the more ‘oversimplifying’ posters here (feminist or otherwise) would ponder this simple fact.

14. @257: A unicorn is that rare breed of (unattached) woman who has sex with a male-female swinging couple. Nearly all MF swinger couples are searching for such a mythical beast, but as 261 states, they don’t exist.

    Kim in Portland claims to be a unicorn, but she is just a figment of our collective imaginations.

15. Ahhh, unicorns. I suppose technically I’m one as well, but my response to any proposition from a couple is unprintable even in Dan’s column. They don’t exist *because* of these couples looking for ’em.

    *spits*

    *ahem*

    Anyway…

16. Shakesville…it’s weird. I remember this blog way back when, and it was pretty cool… then I watched it implode into the super ultra conservative (for lack of a better word) form of feminism. Just odd. Haven’t poked around those parts seriously for oh, several years now I suppose.

17. @257, 261, 265, 266:

    No, in this context, a “unicorn” refers to a young dominant woman. See the last sentence of the last letter to Dan.

    More generally, “unicorn” can refer to anything rare or nonexistent. Sex-negative poly people (surprisingly, there seem to be many of them) sometimes also use the term to refer to a woman who actually likes casual sex with a couple, erroneously thinking that women couldn’t possibly want that (many do).

18. @194 (if you’re still there):

    Thanks for explaining, and I’m glad to know it’s not a straight ultimatum… but I still don’t really understand what happens if one partner wants monogamy for an extended period, and the other wants a return to the open relationship. At what point are you supposed to say “I understand you need monogamy right now, but that’s not what I’m interested in and I don’t think we’re compatible”? How would that arrangement work for someone who really doesn’t want monogamy?

19. @194 (if you’re still there):

    Thanks for explaining, and I’m glad to know it’s not a straight ultimatum… but I still don’t really understand what happens if one partner wants monogamy for an extended period, and the other wants a return to the open relationship. At what point are you supposed to say “I understand you need monogamy right now, but that’s not what I’m interested in and I don’t think we’re compatible”? How would that arrangement work for someone who really doesn’t want monogamy?

20. @259 and 260: Thanks for sharing. As a hard-core football fan bi-chick, I found this uproariously funny, and a spot-on character sketch of both coaches. All I can add is that Rex Ryan probably learned his f-bomb techniques from Brian Billick when they were both with the Ravens. Great way to start a work day!

21. @271

    Well, I guess that’s what I meant about having the discussions at the beginning. When you enter into an open relationship, either ab initio or as a transition from a monogamous relationship, both people need to understand what both need and expect. Some people’s needs just aren’t compatible, and they shouldn’t be together.

    I think there are really two major styles of open relationship that I have seen defended here, and it’s confusing when we simply call both “non-monogamy” and leave it there. One is fundamentally poly, with multiple intimate/sexual relationships that all matter a lot, and though there may be a primary, one’s obligation to that primary is limited. The other is basically monogamy plus, with those wonderful yummy excursions from monogamy permitted only while both members of the couple are OK with it. I don’t think that there is a problem with either type, as long as both members of a couple see eye to eye. My experience says that the mono-plus type has more long-term stability, but that is not a slam against the true poly types at all. It is just that freedom and stability are, in some sense, opposing forces. More of one necessarily implies less of the other, just as at the level of a society order and liberty are opposing forces (since liberty means freedom to disrupt order). In the course of the turmoil and stresses of life, truly long-term relationships sometimes require some sacrifice of personal freedom for the sake of stability. Thus, it’s more likely that people who are willing to sacrifice their personal fulfilment for the stability of a relationship will stay in a relationship.

22. @ 265 and 266
    Funny, as a man who has been in open and semi-open relationships, I have not had that much trouble finding those “unicorn” single females for casual fun. I also know straight couples who have had months-to-years long relationships with women (including living together). Perhaps you just have to look in the right places.

    @ 258 and 262
    You are closed-minded jerks. There are plenty of responsible, ethical, and loving non-monogamous people out there. Scottsteaux63 in particular, you seem kind of scared of women’s sexuality, dude. Get over it.

23. When I first read PTSD’a, letter it seemed rather familiar. The way it was written, reminded me of a letter the I had read a while back, here in this column. I did a bit of research, andI found the letter in the March 2008 column. I suspect that it was written by the same person. If my hunch is correct, then we have a husband who was forced to either or accept this wifes affair, or loose his marriage and family. This is a recipe for disaster, and this could explain why he can not tolerate her bad behavior. It would not of been the first time that the marriage came in second place. Dan’s advice was right on, and if she really “loves” her husband/ marriage, she need to follow his advice., and put the lover on the back burner unit the she and the marriage are stable.
    Like I said earlier, this is just a hunch that the same person wrote both letters, not fact

24. @274 From my personal experience, I steer clear of committed (particularly married MF) partners. Three ways are complex as it is, and the inherent drama I have run into isn’t worth it (especially those trying to fix issues in the relationship by bringing a third in… nuh uh).

25. @273 I think you are right and if you are, then the bitch got exactly what she deserved. The husband should dump the skank and move on. People who play with matches shouldn’t be surprised when they get burned. I also wonder if her assailant was guy she was so gaga about in 2008.

26. @273:

    That makes perfect sense to me, and I completely agree. Thanks for writing that so clearly: it’s not confusing anymore!

27. oops, sorry, that should’ve been 275 not 273

28. 277, No one deserves to be sexually assaulted, Ever!! I hope that the person that did it, goes to prison a long time. If he is a repeat offender, life in prison would be in order

29. If the March 6, 2008 letter writer is the same woman as the current letter writer, then Dan’s response to this letter is tragically right. It’s one thing if the current letter was written by a person who opened up the relationship with the husband’s willing acceptance, it’s another kettle of fish if her husband’s sole reason for opening up the marriage was to prevent his loss of access to his wife and family (only to lose his wife to the predations of another man while she consoles herself in the arms of a different man entirely *and* mourns the loss in her life of her sexual assaulter.)

    I mean, if they’re the same person, he has to feel like an idiot for going against his principles to keep her, for standing aside while she has sex with various men in an effort to avoid divorcing her, then for trying to be supportive to a woman who tells him that she finds him disgusting while fucking another guy (and this is without going into the minor detail that she’s on the fence about whether she should actually *do* anything about repairing her revulsion for her husband.)

    I hope that they aren’t the same person, because I’d have way too many harsh words to say to a woman who would put a LOYAL man through something like that. MEN (not adult males who think that everything has to be their way or the highway) who are willing to sublimate their own happiness for their women, only to learn that their women hate them for their sacrifice, deserve a hell of a lot better.

    http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…

30. 277, I need to add one more comment, and then I am done. I never believed that the person in the original letter was a “b…., or a Skank. I think that she was what she said she was, and that she gave 100% to her marriage. She became angry, then bitter, when her hubby dis-reguarded her desires/ needs. If he tried to work with her a bit, and been a bit more giving sexually, their never would of been a seperation ,or a third person in the marriage. I suspect that he learned the hard way, and is paying a heavy and painful price for being rather selfish. I do wish that she would of given him one more chance
    For those us who are married, their some valuable lessons to be learned from this letter.

31. @280 I was intentionally being being offensive and incendiary. You’re absolutely right that no one ever deserves to be sexually assaulted (or emotionally abused for that matter), but you should read the referenced earlier letter. A lot woulld be explained if they are, in fact, written by the same person (like why she has a sense of loss about losing her assailant and why she feels like she has already lost her husband, that happened when she forced the marriage open something she may just have realized, or not). That husband would be in absolute hell (particularly if wife forced open the marriage to have amazing sex with her eventual assailant). No one has the right to do that to another person, even if they weren’t getting what they needed/wanted, whether it be sexual or emotional. My reaction was overly visceral. I guess I was was offended by how glowingly she described the open marriage during which time she was probably and cruelly inflicting misery on her husband and only now does that concern her. Emotional abuse, like rape is mainly about control, power, and humiliation.

    Granted all of this pure conjecture on part and if I am wrong then PTSD and everyone I have offended has my abject apology, but what if my conjecture is accurate. The similarities between the letters are quite striking. It’s not my place to judge her, but as many others have, I wondered about the harshness of Dan’s response. He apparently knows then he’s telling, now what could that be?

32. PTSD, I’m sorry for the people who were so harsh on you. I was in a somewhat similar situation recently. I experienced extreme physical pain during sex with my boyfriend of three years because of a poorly-understood medical condition. I didn’t know whether I would get triggered again any time we had sex, and I feared the pain so much I couldn’t bear to have sex with him. (I avoided other triggers too, like walking fast, but to the point of being scared to leave the house.) We were monogamous, but my lifeline was online gaming, and the people I met there, who I could get a certain… flirtatious attention from. It made me feel whole and beautiful, and for a moment, I forgot my body was betraying me. And I spent time with the computer instead of my boyfriend.

    PTSD, my friends tried the “you’re being a little shit, grow up” intervention with me, just like Dan and most of the commenters. It didn’t work. I was too upset, too irrational, already too deep into what would become a year of spiraling further into depression and anxiety. It felt like I was losing my friends, the only people I felt like I could turn to. I felt like screaming, “But I’m hurting! Cut me some slack!”

    So I ignored them. This is how it turned out for me: My friends really were there for me (even if I wouldn’t take their advice), my boyfriend exploded with resentment six months later and we’re no longer speaking a year after that, I sat at home depressed for almost nine months, I met a guy through my online game I wasn’t afraid to fuck because he didn’t put as much pressure on me as my ex had, I was in and out of therapy and I still have panic attacks. Some of it was good, most of it was bad.

    I know you want to cling to the one happy part of your life right now. I’ve been there. Sometimes, that can keep you from getting the help you need. Please, go to therapy. If you can’t find a good therapist, there’s an online resource for cognitive behavioral therapy called MoodGym (Google it) that really helped, once I finally realized I needed it.

    Bandaids are great and you need them, but they won’t help much if you’ve got a seething infection too. Maybe it’ll heal on its own… Or maybe it won’t. If your relationship with your husband is worth saving, he’s made it clear that you can’t save it without changing something. If your husband is putting too much pressure on you (and your boyfriend isn’t), tell the husband, and if the trust can’t be rebuilt, then leave now. If it’s worth it to stay, then stay. Either way, I think you should take a temporary break from the boyfriend… Take it a day at a time. You might surprise yourself with your ability to survive without, and it will probably give you some perspective either way. Good luck!

33. Nitpick for @155: Unless she’s dumping vinegar on her husband’s head or something, she is not literally pouring acid on her husband, and as marriages are intangible I’m not sure how you could literally pour acid on one.

    “Literal” gets enough abuse as it is, please don’t add to it…

34. Perhaps I was born at night, but I assure you I wasn’t born last night! PTSD is so full of crap it’s not even funny. She’s in a poly relationship and can fuck the shit out of her boyfriend with no problem, but she can’t fuck her husband with out breaking down? Puhleeeze! This letter is as fake as tits on a porn star or she just wants permission to DTMFA.

35. don’t worry, SUB, we’re out there. we may be a little bit shy!

36. I used to respect your opinions MR Savage. However, your judgmental Savage attack on a rape victim is disgusting. I can’t believe that in 2010 you could be so disingenuous to this women. I have seen far too much violence
    against women and at the age of nine was placed in the position of having
    to stop the attempted rape of my 13 year old sister. I suggest that it is you
    sir who is in need of professional help in reconnecting with your humanity.

37. Well, we all know that the way to assist a woman who has experienced sexual assault is to abuse her verbally.

    Savage, YOU are the total shit here.

    Although, I will say, anyone who needs advice and comes to you obviously isn’t thinking clearly.

38. It sounds to me like the rape made this woman realize that she didn’t want to have sex with her husband anymore. It made her realize that she was doing it just because she was married to him and not because she wanted to. The marriage sex is too much like rape for her to tolerate it after actually being raped. She should try to figure out what’s gone wrong with her marriage, and if it can’t be fixed she needs to end it and be with the boyfriend. Your true feelings are far more important than a piece of paper at the courthouse.

39. It sounds to me like the rape made PTSD realize that she didn’t want to have sex with her husband anymore. It made her realize that she was doing it just because she was married to him and not because she wanted to. The marriage sex is too much like rape for her to tolerate it after actually being raped. She should try to figure out what’s gone wrong with her marriage, and if it can’t be fixed, she needs to end it and be with the boyfriend. Your true feelings are far more important than a piece of paper at the courthouse.

40. White male entitled garbage. So you encourage men to leave their fat wives, but you encourage a rape victim to stay in a marriage that is psychologically damaging for her? Are you nuts? No, just a gay entitled liberal white male. If you are reading this ptsd Savage had no right to say that you are being a “little shit” for not wanting to sleep with your husband. If you are triggered by sleeping with him you need to leave. Go be with your boyfriend and get therapy. Anyone who is admonishing you for being a victim is victimizing you again.
    As for Savage, once again he proves that he has no understanding of what females go through sexually and nor does he care. You are disgusting Sir.

41. White male entitled garbage. So you encourage men to leave their fat wives, but you encourage a rape victim to stay in a marriage that is psychologically damaging for her? Are you nuts? No, just a gay entitled liberal white male. If you are reading this ptsd Savage had no right to say that you are being a “little shit” for not wanting to sleep with your husband. If you are triggered by sleeping with him you need to leave. Go be with your boyfriend and get therapy. Anyone who is admonishing you for being a victim is victimizing you again.
    As for Savage, once again he proves that he has no understanding of what females go through sexually and nor does he care. You are disgusting Sir.

42. Fuck you Dan, what a misogynist piece of male privileged drivel.

    “then stop emotionally assaulting your husband and put both your marriage and him out of their misery.”

    Emotionally assaulting him HOW? By not having sex with him?

    What a pile a garbage, no person has any obligation to have sex with ANYONE.

43. Okay, I’m a woman and I’ve been in a poly relationship for the last 7+ years (same primary partner, male, and we’ve both had different secondaries at times, still friends with most of them). So I’ve had a lot of the feelings of PTSD’s husband at various times, for different reasons (typically involving my primary cheating on me and then continuing to focus his emotional energy on someone else).

    As, I believe, my partner has as well when I was severely depressed for a few years and had sex drive issues (further compounded by him cheating on me). It IS crappy when someone you love and care for rejects you sexually. It is especially crappy when they do so while continuing to fuck someone else (and/or by cheating on you with someone else).

    I do not read this as PTSD’s husband feeling “entitled” to sex. I read it as him feeling deeply hurt and rejected that his wife, whom he loves, does not want to have sex with him–actively finds him repulsive and triggering (he may be feeling extra-crappy, wondering why he apparently reminds her of the person who assaulted her)–while having sex with someone else. I think that’s totally legitimate. His feelings are legitimate, even if he is expressing them in a counterproductive way. Most people cannot turn off their own feelings, even when they know intellectually that what their partner is dealing with is more important. The problem is that his feelings and how he expresses them may be triggering PTSD.

    However, PTSD cannot help her triggers, either. And it can be extremely difficult to seek therapy, especially if one is depressed and/or traumatized. It sounds like he has complicated feelings about what happened that may be contributing to feelings of guilt. Perhaps she may feel she doesn’t deserve help, or that a therapist will judge her, or that going to a therapist means there’s something irrevocably wrong with her (therapy IS still pretty stigmatized). Of course, perhaps her husband is an entitled asshole who just wants to fuck her and doesn’t care about her recovery. We don’t really have enough to be able to judge his behavior.

    I don’t think “the immediate problem” is who’s having sex with whom. That will sort itself out once the underlying issues are dealt with.

    First, where’s the boyfriend in this? How long has he known them? Is he friends with the husband? Does HE want their marriage to remain stable? The three of them need to sit down and talk honestly about the situation and how to proceed to maximize healing for PTSD and her husband and minimize pain for all of them. Is the boyfriend willing to be there and supportive for her without sex (in the short term)? Is it the sex with the boyfriend that is important for PTSD or the emotional support?

    Second, whether or not the husband has any other partners is irrelevant. If he is hurt because he is rejected sexually (and, it sounds like emotionally as well) by HIS WIFE, having sex with someone else, no matter how much he cares for that person, won’t necessarily help. People are not interchangeable masturbatory aids. When my primary partner has not been interested in sex, having sex with my secondary did not make me feel any better about the situation. Lest you say this is because I am a ~gurl~, my male partner has felt the same in a reversed situation.

    Third, reverting to monogamy may or may not be helpful in the situation. This depends so much on the people involved and the situation that I would not weigh in either way for someone else (I’ve found it personally helpful once, and another time I knew it would be sweeping the issue under the rug instead of actually addressing it). Too, reverting to monogamy can lead to treating secondaries like disposable masturbatory aids rather than people (and if they’re people, they can be part of the solution). As others have pointed out, it could also be a problem for PTSD–not having sex she can enjoy isn’t exactly going to make her magically want to have sex with her husband again. This is a decision that needs to be made after the three of them discuss it, and possibly with the input of a good, poly-friendly therapist who has experience with counselling assault survivors.

    Fourth, I think PTSD needs therapy, from a poly-friendly counsellor with counselling assault survivors. However, after some period of therapy, I would strongly, strongly recommend couples therapy if PTSD and her husband still want to remain together. Something may come up there that suggests that her husband might benefit from individual counselling, or it may not (I am a generally proponent of individual therapy to understand yourself and how you relate to other people better, but YMMV). With this much pain going on, PTSD and her husband likely have stuff they really need to work out together, not just individually. If they really want to save the marriage, if it can be saved.

    If PTSD is unable or unwilling to get therapy (and potentially dial things back with the boyfriend until things are on a more even keel with her husband), yeah, I wouldn’t blame the husband for moving on. That doesn’t mean PTSD is a bad person, but if the situation is emotionally untenable for the husband, it wouldn’t make him a bad person for leaving, either. People have limits, and those limits may not be “fair” but they do exist.

    Regardless of whether PTSD gets into therapy to save the marriage, or gets into therapy for her own personal health (and sex with the boyfriend may be great, but I kind of doubt it is a long-term fix), please, get into therapy. It may or may not save the marriage–if the marriage can or should be saved–but it will be good for PTSD.

44. I think Savage is trying to make a point with PTSD. Maybe if she feels offended by his advice, it’ll spark some feeling in her of why it offends her. Is it inherently offensive because it’s true? If she even feels that may be a possibility, then she would probably do everything in her power to demonstrate FULLY how untrue she can make it. Being offended or humiliated can be the most powerful motivator to unfuck yourself.

45. Short version: ignore everyone on the internet. Find a good, poly-friendly, experienced therapist. If the first one sucks, try a different one.

    Therapy isn’t fun, but it’s effective. Strangers on the internet are less likely to be so, and so are advice columnists.

46. Cudos to 295, Mel89. This is probably the best post this subject, and definitely the most thought out. I hope that PTSD has read it, and that it is helpful to her. GOOD JOB #295!

47. Why the fuck do people who think sex is not important read Dan’s columns?

    I think PTSD blames her husband for basically whoring her out and not protecting his treasured wife from such a thing. After all if he had guarded her and considered her and their sex life a precious sacred treasure this would not have happened.

    Now before you say I am judgmental and misogynist, I’m a woman in a somewhat open relationship. And yes, our extra partners are second class, our relationship is primary, that is why we are married. And the previous paragraph is not what I think it necessarily means when a couple is open. But if I was a woman who had just recently been sexually assaulted and was so deeply repressing it I hadn’t even seen a fucking counsellor yet and was DEBATING seeing one after something that traumatizing, my very primal side might well be sending me those messages. Maybe I don’t even hear them in plain words, but I bet they are in her guts and heart and well, specifically, in her pussy.

48. Sacculina is right about everything. Thank you, Sacculina. The end.

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