Savage Love

1. Just wanted to congratulate you on the It Gets Better Project! Did you see that Hillary Clinton has now contributed? THANK YOU from my bottom of my heart.

2. Dan rocks. So does cake.

3. Awesome column as usual, Dan. Bravo.

4. Hey SUB — Are you reading this? If so, are you East Coast, West Coast, or in the middle?
   ~ Unicorn

5. To PTSD, I gotta say that I do believe that you feel bad and I can believe you aren’t doing this on purpose. However I also think you have earned the verbal lashing Dan has given you. The fact that you are making yourself feel miserable for what you know are cruel behaviors does not make those behaviors any less cruel or your husband suffer any less.

   Let’s review. You were assaulted. This is terrible, no doubt about it. You elected to not seek help. This is monumentally stupid, but not terrible on its own. You then proceded to punish your own husband for the ensuing trauma. Had you become unreceptive to sex generally it would have been bad but understandable, as long as you comitted to getting help. However you are effectively telling your husband “Sex is disgusting. With you. With my boyfriend it’s awesome!” This is not OK, assault or no assault.

   Either divorce your husband so he doesn’t have to put up with your emotional abuse or put bf on hold and get therapy.

6. We didn’t get a lot of details in PTSD’s letter (as I understand is necessary due to editing), but it’s entirely possible that the husband is doing something differently (probably not his fault!) that is resulting in her being triggered, but it isn’t happening with the boyfriend for whatever reason.

   If she kicks the boyfriend out of her life, she’s losing out on a source of support AND a potential answer to solving this problem. It’s possible that with therapy she can work out why it is that sex with the boyfriend does not trigger memories of the assault, but sex with the husband does–and the answer is almost definitely NOT that she has stopped loving her husband and wants out of the marriage.

   Just because her boyfriend is her secondary (from what it sounds like) doesn’t mean that their relationship isn’t important, or that it should be dropped just because the husband is having problems. The husband should realize that his wife’s reaction is likely due to the complicated and confusing ways that our brains react to trauma, not something personal. They should see her healthy sex life with her boyfriend as a path to healing and returning to having emotionally-safe sex with her husband.

7. addendum: reading your response to TMF, I immediately thought of “Tiny Hats” http://www.cartoonbrew.com/site-news/cbt…

8. Ever kiss the the tip of a parasitic twin’s nose?
   Nope, just doesn’t quite have that ring to it.

9. @5: First of all, it’s not “monumentally stupid” that she hasn’t sought help before. Many assault survivors have a hard time telling people, at least partially because of victim-blaming reactions. I’m not accusing you or Dan of victim-blaming, but the “verbal lashing” is not helpful, because it implies that she has control over how she’s reacting, and that isn’t the case.

   Something is triggering her when she’s with her husband, but not with her boyfriend. We don’t know what that is, and she might not know what that is, but her different reactions are not her fault. I may have PTSD (in the process of finding out) from a trauma, but whether or not either of us meet the official criteria, I do have triggers and it sounds like that’s exactly what she’s experiencing. Triggers are weird, and it can be hard to figure out–especially right after it happens–why some things are triggering and others are not. I’ve been triggered by a pillow.

   It could be that her husband reminds her of her assailant. If he has a similar body type, or smell, or personality in any way, that could be it. If they’re having sex in their home and that’s where she was assaulted (or even where she used to have consensual sex with that partner), that could be it. In her letter she mentions trying to go ahead and have sex with her husband anyway–because that’s what she thought she was supposed to do–and being triggered. It’s possible that her well-meaning attempts set her back with her husband because now when she thinks of sex with him it reminds her of that, which reminds her of her assault.

   It’s an incredibly good sign that she is able to have sex with her boyfriend. It’s completely understandable that her husband is taking that personally, but they all need to understand that it’s not about him… it’s just about the way our brains develop memories in response to trauma, and how that can be strange and unpredictable and incredibly hard to conquer. If she breaks up with her boyfriend–especially if she does it out of some sense of obligation to her husband, but doesn’t really want to–it will just create further resentment and trauma. They all need to work together to support her and her husband through this, not start cutting people out of their lives.

   It may be a good idea to scale back sex with the boyfriend for the time being, but that’s a conversation he should be involved in. Cutting him off unilaterally (whether that’s just sex or in an emotional capacity, too… but I don’t think the husband would be satisfied if he stayed on in an emotional capacity, because he’s feeling hurt and jealous…) isn’t fair to anyone involved.

10. You may have a “bifurcated clitoral glans” (it’s not common, but it’s not abnormal either), but you don’t have two clits (your clit is actually as large in volume as an average penis, and includes a heck of a lot of stuff that you can’t see.

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoris

11. Is it possible that she blames the husband on some level? If it was his idea to open things then some part of her could be thinking it’s his fault that she got hurt.

12. @6, I can’t believe you’re blaming the husband! It is horrible that the woman was a victim of sexual assualt, but like Dan said, that does not give her a right to treat her husband like shit and continue to have fun loving sex with the boyfriend!! What about his needs and feelings? There is such a thing as being to feminist, and it sounds like you are willing to give anybody who was assualted a free pass to treat ANYBODY badly. I wonder if you would feel the same way if the genders are reversed? As Dan always says, your 1st responsibilty is to your primary partner. She shoudl stop seeing the boyfriend right now, because now she is just perpetuating the cycle of abuse by emotionally abusing her poor husband.I have known plenty victims of abuse, my mother being ome of them, and sometimes you just have to call them out on their hypocritical bullshit.

13. If SUB is in the Vegas area, I am currently available. >>

14. And to PTSD, here is a resource for poly-friendly professionals so you can get help from a therapist who won’t jump to conclusions about your open relationship:

    http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp/main.ph…

15. @12: I’m not blaming the husband, and I’m not taking her side just because she’s a woman, or trying to give her a free pass. But I think she already does recognize that she is hurting her husband (albeit unintentionally), so I don’t feel the need to browbeat her on that. And I don’t think that what she’s doing to her husband is emotional abuse. This isn’t a case where you have to pick one side and say that person is to blame, either the husband, the wife or the boyfriend. If we’re going to blame anyone, it should be her assailant.

    I want her husband’s pain to stop, and I want her pain to stop, and I want that to happen without causing additional pain to her and her boyfriend if possible. I just don’t think that her reactions to sex are her fault, or that stopping things with her boyfriend will make things better–I think it will just make things worse. I think they all need to come together and (with the help of a therapist) figure out how to be mutually supportive.

    Dan’s reaction is something he’s done a few times… his idea of an open relationship is one where the primary partner gets to call everything off and force the other primary to break up with their other partners at a moment’s notice. I don’t think that’s fair, or healthy, or stable. There are ways to resolve this without forcing this woman who has already gone through so much to lose someone she loves.

16. Look at you SUB, getting all this attention…looks like you won’t have a problem nailing one of us down – or rather getting one of us to nail YOU down…

17. I read TMF’s letter and the first thing I thought was “man I wish I had two working penises, that would be awesome.” I have no idea how that would work biologically speaking, but it would make getting laid a lot more interesting.

    I have spent too much time thinking about this already.

18. SUB, if you find a vanilla who says she’ll be perverted for you, please make sure she will actually do it BEFORE you fall in love/marry her. It would have saved me a lot of heartache if I hadn’t beleived my bf when he said that a wedding ring was a prerequisite for tying him up.

    -Chained Unicorn

19. @15: Yes, what she is doing is emotional abuse. It’s reprehensible and her being attacked does not, as Dan put it, give her a “get out of being a human free” card. She is knowingly causing her husband distress and she is knowingly doing something he has expressly told her he is not comfortable with and rather than getting therapy and trying to actually work through her own issues and the issues of her marriage, she’s just ignoring her husband and his wishes and running off to fuck her boyfriend. That’s not helpful to anyone, that’s just being avoidant and making a bad situation even worse.

    If the boyfriend isn’t a completely terrible person, he will understand when she says “we need to cool it for now because it’s ruining my marriage.” If PTSD isn’t a completely terrible person, she’ll cool things off with her boyfriend until she gets her head in gear because what she’s doing is killing her marriage and if I were the husband in this I would already be talking to my lawyer.

    It’s a *relationship*, kids. That means you put at least a modicum of thought towards each other’s feelings and wishes once in a while. If you can’t do that, then you shouldn’t be married – open or not.

20. or trying to give her a free pass.

    Yes, you are, when you write–

    her reactions (are) not her fault

    First off, assigning blame is useless, and usually leads to the various hard feelings present in PSTD’s situation. Second, taking responsibility and assigning blame are two completely different things. PSTD’s reactions are her own, and there’s no fault involved.

    I had my own reactions to PSTD’s letter, and found them in Dan’s 2nd & 3rd paragraphs. PSTD writes like she really *wants* to love her husband like she used to, but she’s not feeling it, and is acting on those feelings. She has two choices: she chooses to act on her desires to love her husband, or admits that the love simply isn’t there anymore & takes steps accordingly. Either way, it’s up to her.

    And this is actually quite healing, because it takes her out of the victim mode, and puts her back where she truly belongs: In the driver’s seat of her own life.

21. @sacculina — It’d be helpful if we knew what was going on with the boyfriend, exactly — does he even know about the assault, does he know about the state of PTSD’s relationship with her husband, etc.? It feels like a good secondary partner should be more considerate/aware of the whole situation. Yes, the writer needs comfort in a time like this, but the point of a secondary partner is the fact that they’re the secondary partner. Sure, generally that means less of the responsibility but it sounds like this is rapidly reaching the point where all three of these people need to sit down and have a chat (possibly with one of the therapists your mentioned) about how this triangle is balanced.

    And if it comes to it, if this boyfriend is someone worth having in this relationship, he should be willing to back off for a bit if he is in fact part of the problem.

    I’m not arguing with you, but like you I feel like that something’s been left out — not as much from editing, but possibly something that PTSD didn’t think was important or vital to add. (Maybe her husband wants her to press charges/speak to a counselor and her boyfriend isn’t asking her to confront what happened.)

22. @9 (aka Junior Therapist):Yes it is monumentally stupid that she hasn’t sought help. Her marriage is falling apart. She’s rejecting her husband and mourning the loss of the man who assaulted her. I doubt that hubby is as cheered as you are that “It’s an incredibly good sign that she is able to have sex with her boyfriend.”

    Dan’s right… she’s using this event as an excuse for her cruel and thoughtless behavior. Doing that helps no one, especially herself. She’ll be stuck there as longs as she continues to wallow in it. No one says she HAS to have sex with her husband, but she should at least work through it with at therapist and figger out what to do.

23. Best odds: Pay for it, already.

    I am *so* glad I wasn’t drinking something at that point.

24. I’d say she can’t help how she feels about sleeping with one and not the other, BUT Dan is absolutely right overall because she *can* help what she actually *does* about it.

    She *can* talk to both of them, outline the problem, and get herself into some kind of therapy if she wants to keep the relationship she has with her husband. Not doing that is the cruel and thoughtless part. And shoot, if I were the boyfriend and saw her dumping her husband like that I’d haul my ass out of there too.

25. PTSD’s reactions may not be her fault, but WHAT SHE DOES ABOUT THEM 100% absolutely is.

    Part of them is to recognize that this source of support is a source of pain for her husband.

    Now you can argue that he should be more open, more accepting, whatever.

    But when you commit to marriage, you commit to holding THAT PERSON’S desires and feelings equal to your own, and treating them with respect.

    And what that means is that when the problem is *yours*, and part of what you had before is broken – whether it’s your fault or not – you get yourself help, and you place primary importance on fixing that part.

    What’s that you say? She needs to fix herself first before she fixes her marriage? EXACTLY. Fixing herself will be PART of what helps to fix her marriage.

    She does not get to treat her husband and his desires and feelings as disposable in the meantime. She committed to more than that when she married him.

    On the BS radar btw – nobody here, not the husband, not Dan, told PTSD to give her boyfriend up. They said “stop sleeping with him – for now”. She can still see him. He’s still there. But he probably has to backburner because he is distracting from the primary issue she has to solve.

    I would be much more willing to accept PTSD’s argument that the sexual portion of her relationship with her BF is too important a support to give up right now if AS SOON AS she figured out that fucking her husband was making her skin crawl, and fucking her boyfriend wasn’t, she ran her butt into therapy, and was working on processing it. If she was asking her husband to come to therapy with her. If she had a therapist backing her up in any way shape or form based on intimate knowledge of what was going on in her life.

    But she doesn’t have any of these things. Why not?

    Because she discovered she had a problem. And instead of looking for help – from the obvious sources – to solve it, she has allowed it to continue and asked everybody around her to allow it to continue while she does nothing ACTIVE to help her get past it.

    That’s a form of unreasonable entitlement and it’s pure bullshit.

    She doesn’t get to ask ANYBODY to put up with that. Not and realistically expect them to go along with it.

26. @21: I’m intrigued by the point that maybe the BF doesn’t even know about her assault. Maybe that’s colouring her experiences with him (and away from her husband) … he’s someone who can representative the world outside that painful sphere (which her husband, informed, unfortunately occupies).

    I agree with comments that believe she’s not communicating enough with ANY of them, and certainly not doing herself any favours by not hauling her ass NOW into therapy (with her husband, and potentially, with her boyfriend too … all together, or not).

    I think it’s a very good sign she still wants sex with anyone, but I do sympathize with the husband: He didn’t suffer any assault, but he has been witness to her pain, and now he’s also suffered a treatment that basically puts him on the level of the man who caused her that.

    LW needs to get to therapy now. Once she’s there, maybe she’ll find she won’t need to rely on her BF sex so much as her outlet, her source of support. It sounds like right now because she doesn’t have any other avenues, this BF’s help is becoming disproportionately important.

27. What I thought was most telling was the last paragraph of PTSD’s letter, where she equates the loss of her husband with the loss of the THE GUY WHO ASSAULTED HER.

    I’m guessing that’s why she hasn’t sought counseling/pressed charges, etc – In a situation like hers, many victims feel conflicted and guilty for still having feelings for the person who violated them. It sounds like she’s lumped her husband in with that situation/emotion, for a variety of possible reasons.

    Either way, to PTSD: Dick therapy with the boyfriend might be healing, but it’s intentionally, unacceptably cruel to a person you allegedly love.

    Cut the husband loose (there’s no indication you actually WANT to heal things with him in your letter, just that you’re sorry he’s sad), get therapy. Maybe try being single entirely while doing so. Being assaulted doesn’t mean you have to be alone, but it doesn’t sound like the sex you’re having is helping you deal with it in a healthy way.

28. @15, the thing is, relationships are hard. All relationships, and I understand that. I realize she feels horrible too. Actions speak louder than words though, so by emotionally and physically rejecting her husband she is causing emotional damage to their relationship. The husband has actually communicated to her that he would like her to pay attention to HIM, focus on their relationship. She is married to him, so yes, she should do as he asks and stop being so self involved. I agree they should go to therapy, but I think the husband and wife need to work on their problems first with the therapist, because otherwise there could be ganging up on the husband from her and the boyfriend. So either she should focus on her misused husband that did not sexually assualt her, and therefore deserves the respect of HIS wife or she should get a divorce and leave the man alone. She is showing no consideration for his feelings, and that is emotional abuse. Especially the the way she fails to attempt to handle anything in any sort of respectful way.

29. Re PTSD: the first thing that occurs to me is that maybe sex with the husband feels somehow obligatory, and this sense of obligation is linked to being forced, i.e., assaulted. The boyfriend is entirely optional, so it doesn’t trigger the same reaction.

    That said, PTSD, what you are doing to your husband is indeed abusive to him, and if you continue the way you are going now, you WILL lose him. Dan laid out the two things you need to do, if you don’t want that to happen:

    1) Fucking Get Help. NOW.
    2) Drop the boyfriend until you are no longer revolted by your husband. You may not be able yet to have sex with him without being triggered for a while yet. But I guarantee that his hurt and anger about you continuing with the boyfriend while shutting him out will only fester and prevent the healing between you.

    You claim to want both of them. You may eventually get both of them back. But there is no good way to hold onto both of them right now. If you don’t give up the boyfriend for the time being, for the sake of the husband, you WILL lose one of them.

30. I’m 100% with Dan on PTSD. I also echo other comments: she doesn’t have to give up the boyfriend FOREVER AND EVER OMG. Just cool it down for a bit, work on herself/her marriage, and when she is feeling less skin-crawly and her husband less jealous, the arrangement can be re-negotiated.

    However, I have this sneaking suspicion if PTSD were a good poly, this would have already occurred to her. There is no excuse ever for assault, but it feels as if she’s using it as an excuse to become further involved with the secondary and drift from the husband. Frankly, while reading Dan’s response, I was impressed, because I probably would have been even harsher on the LW.

31. Thanks for the answer Dan, you’re a swell guy.

    @4 Middle.
    @13 Nowhere near there :[

32. I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned the best option for WPOS – find an anti-gay politician. Or preacher. Whichever.

33. @32 Yabbut… them guys were covered here: Please don’t say, “Settle for a very straight-acting and straight-looking gay guy.”

34. PTSD’s story is so sad. Everybody’s posting on this like it can be fixed–and maybe it can’t. No husband could not take personally, “I can’t have sex with you because you remind me of my rapist”. The loss of trust and intimacy for both of them is pure poison. Add the fun poly wrinkle of I can still have amazing sex with my boyfriend and you’ve got a house burning down to the foundation.

    Life sure ain’t fair.

35. “Dan’s … idea of an open relationship is one where the primary partner gets to call everything off and force the other primary to break up with their other partners at a moment’s notice.”

    What exactly about the word “primary” don’t you understand?

    If you run into a rough patch, and keeping the relationship with one or more “secondaries” is more important than the feelings of the “primary” then the “primary” has become the lesser of the two considerations. That’s the definition of “secondary.”

    “Primary” is not synonymous with “can be trusted to put up with my shit more reliably than anyone else.”

36. I agree with many posters in this thread, that while PTSD may be not be able to control her feelings, she can control her actions. And right now her actions are putting her spouse into quite the personal hell.
    I’m kinda surprised that her reaction to her spouse hasn’t bothered her so much that she hasn’t made fixing it top priority in her life, and instead keeps bonking the boyfriend. When either my SO or I have serious stress, grief, trauma, health problems or depression in our lives, the other person puts sex on hold if that is necessary while the problem gets worked through. I would hope most truly committed couples would have similar priorities.

37. @ 18 – My heart goes out to you – but why are you still there?

    You’re supposed to be the one putting the chains on, not the one wearing them.

38. @32 Yabbut… them guys were covered here: Please don’t say, “Settle for a very straight-acting and straight-looking gay guy.”

39. @ 34 – You’re right. It may not be possible to fix her marriage. Maybe fixing herself pulls herself away from a marriage that wasn’t or no longer is right for her.

    But she damn sure won’t know until she tries. Until she starts thinking from the mentality of a Survivor rather than a Victim.

    Because a Survivor legitimately gets to say – “This incident affected me badly and changed my life. Even though I tried *my best*, I couldn’t recapture what it was before and I had to let it go.”

    “Victims” don’t.

40. Dan is exactly right about PTSD, and that marriage needs to end now.

    WPOS: I’m a straight guy here. I don’t really need my boots cleaned, but I am frequently in desperate need of someone to clean my floors, do my dishes, or clean my bathroom. I’m sure there are plenty of straight guys who would love free cleaning help and some of them would be willing to degrade you. Thought about posting ads offering to work as a housekeeper?

41. Sorry about the duplicate! It hung for ages and when I refreshed, after coming back to the computer, it posted it again, apparently…

42. @34, I couldn’t agree more with you. It’s really sad an unfair.

    Here’s my take: PTSD isn’t guilty of her reaction to her husband and boyfriend. But (and again perhaps because of the abuse) she’s avoiding the difficult, hard, yet necessary look at her life; she’s avoiding the responsibility of confronting the situation and deciding what it is that she wants to do, and why. She should try to get some therapy, preferably together with her husband (and maybe even her boyfriend, if she can find a sufficiently open-minded therapist) and work through these issues.

    Is this difficult because of the trauma of having been assaulted? Well, this trauma is precisely one of the best reasons why she should seek counseling. She is avoiding a problem, pretending it doesn’t exist or will somehow solve itself spontaneously. Contacting Dan and asking for advice is already a step in the good direction; at least she isn’t just running away from the situation. The next step indeed has to be to get help. Counseling.

    It may be too late already. Maybe because of the assault; maybe because of issues that existed before but were painfully brought to the surface by the assault; it feels like she doesn’t want to be her husband’s wife anymore. Maybe I’m wrong (hell, she’s the one who should be asking herself this question, not me), but it does seem to be a plausible explanation. If that’s the case — if what she really wants now is to have her boyfriend as her husband and to leave her current husband — then that’s what she should do. For herself, so that she isn’t in such a guilt-and-blame-ridden situation that tears hearts apart. And for her husband, so that he can start the slow and painful process of healing and have another go at finding happiness with some other women.

    Please, PSTD and hubby: get your asses into a therapist’s office, and start communicating. I don’t know if your relationship can be salvaged; maybe it’s indeed too late. But you have to understand what is going on, so that you can make the best decisions for your lives. Do that as soon as possible, or else the resulting emotional catastrophe will be much worse, for both of you, and for much longer.

43. @34: Well, she did write in asking for advice, after all. The presumption is that she wants to at least try to save it.

    On the whole, though, I agree: it sounds pretty damned doomed to me. Even if she takes Dan’s advice, she is going to resent it.

    My honest reaction is that the husband should change the locks and tell her it’s time for her to earn a place in his life. Their existing marriage is, if not dead, certainly lying in a crumpled, twitching, heap, vomiting blood. It’s time for a hard reset. If she wants a life with him, she can damned well pursue him. Whether she steps up to that challenge, or feels a huge relief to be set free, will tell both of them all they need to know.

44. Dear TMF child,
    Look up “bifid clitoris” on Google. You will find that “two clits” is often a result of horrible birth defects affecting daily issues such as taking a normal pee or worse. Not really funny anymore, is it?

45. Dear TMF child,
    Look up “bifid clitoris” on Google. You will find that “two clits” is often a result of horrible birth defects affecting daily issues such as taking a normal pee or worse. Not really funny anymore, is it?

46. PTSD made me wonder if her issue with her husband is a semi-unconscious feeling that he should have somehow protected her from the assault, a “responsibility” none of her secondaries would have, and since the husband “failed” there are resentment issues messing up their sex life that don’t apply to her boyfriend. just a thought

47. @45 Symptoms of a bifid clitoris do not include constant orgasms brought on by movement. It is a physical anomaly which is usually accompanied by other deformations and defects. It isn’t particularly “funny” but the letter writer’s supposition that having bifid clitoris means constant sexual arousal is kind of hilarious.

48. @15

    Sacculina wrote:
    “Dan’s … idea of an open relationship is one where the primary partner gets to call everything off and force the other primary to break up with their other partners at a moment’s notice.”

    This isn’t just Dan’s view. It is the ONLY arrangement that I, and many others I know, would accept as a foundation for an open relationship. Sex is fraught with emotional danger. Open relationships are inherently dangerous, and in my experience they work only when there is absolute security in the primary relationship. Each partner knowing that they can go back to the security of monogamy whenever they feel that need is what mitigates the dangers of the open relationship, and allows it to happen.

    I would not be involved in an open relationship that did not have that “instant veto” clause built in, and I have seen, over and over again, the misery that results when that sort of rule is not present and taken very seriously.

49. If PTSD was truly serious about maintaining a “healthy” relationship with her husband (yes, “healthy” does imply a sexual component), she would have gone to therapy (*any* sort of therapy, well, besides getting her dick needs met by her BF) long ago. I think that the posters who mentioned the idea of her revulsion being tied into an underlying resentment for her husband are correct. She should either move forward or start cutting ties.

50. @15

    Sacculina wrote:
    “Dan’s … idea of an open relationship is one where the primary partner gets to call everything off and force the other primary to break up with their other partners at a moment’s notice.”

    This isn’t just Dan’s view. It is the ONLY arrangement that I, and many others I know, would accept as a foundation for an open relationship. Sex is fraught with emotional danger. Open relationships are inherently dangerous, and in my experience they work only when there is absolute security in the primary relationship. Each partner knowing that they can go back to the security of monogamy whenever they feel that need is what mitigates the dangers of the open relationship, and allows it to happen.

    I would never be involved in an open relationship that did not have that “instant veto” clause built in, and I have seen, over and over again, the misery that results when that sort of agreement is not taken very seriously.

51. Oops… please forgive the double post. It was done by mistake.

52. It’s curious. Women are actually almost dominant: they pretend they don’t make choices, or they don’t participate, but mostly are manipulative bitches. Men often are too busy looking at their egos to notice that.
    Sorry, my gayness made me a bit misogynous xD

53. You guys are not focusing on the real problem here AT ALL.

    TWO CLITORISES. CLITORII.

54. Today was fun! Feels like it’s been a while since we had a good, no-holds-barred plain old vanilla Savage kink advice.

55. ?? What is this FetLife of which you speak?

    PS: ROFLMAO @#53

    PPS: I figure that, since the clitoris is homologous to the penis, having two clits is about as common as having two penises. How many of those have you heard of, TMF? Outside of http://www.boytaur.net, I mean.

56. The plurality of ‘clitoris’ is technically ‘clitores’ but since we’re speaking English here ‘clitorises’ does fine.

57. I’m not a psychological expert of any kind, but PTSD’s email seems inconsistent. Wouldn’t being traumatized by a sexual assault by a man make sex creepy for her for all men? If not, why her husband but not her boyfriend.

    In the absence of that information her husband is justified in feeling jerked around, should divorce her and move on with his life.

58. @ Sevendaughters:

    “Clitorides” is the proper Latin plural, I believe.

    @ Lechugo:

    Well, you’re gay, so of course you have every right to denigrate half of the entire human race. After all, why go through all the hassle of pretending women are real people unless you’re trying to get in their lady-parts? Sure, some women might say that it’s awfully ironic to see this kind of blatant bigotry from a gay man, who would presumably know how vicious stereotypes can be — but don’t listen to them! They’re just a bunch of manipulative bitches!

59. Ummm, hello? I’m a 32 year old domme who isn’t pro and into lifestyle D/s. It’s out there–on Fetlife, on Collarme (which is where I met my sub) and other places. Just gotta keep looking…

    @53, you should be sorry for that sexist screed. Being gay doesn’t excuse you for being a dick.

60. PTSD, Your pussy had rejected your husband long before the assault and now it wants Vitamin-D only from the boyfriend. The best thing for you to do is acknowledge this reality and free your husband to move on with his life. What you are doing is cruel and unusual punishment much like an execution – only slower, more painful and more traumatic!!

61. @52 — you can’t blame it on your gayness. Many, *many* het men are equally misogynistic. Nice try, though!

62. I think Dan was too hard on PTSD. My ex-boyfriend raped me. Since the rape, I have been able to enjoy casual sex. Committed-relationship sex can still trigger me, two and a half years later. Loving someone makes you vulnerable, and feeling vulnerable can trigger flashbacks. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is especially difficult after you’ve been raped by someone you trusted. I predict that if PTSD continues sleeping with her boyfriend, sex with him will also trigger her. PTSD is sabotaging her marriage, but I suspect that is because she cannot tolerate closeness so soon after the rape.

    Five months–so soon? Yes. Don’t get me wrong: PTSD needs to see a rape therapist ASAP. I couldn’t feel anything or admit that I had been raped until six months after the assault. Then one night the emotional tsunami hit, and I drove 400 miles to my sister’s house crying.

    PTSD is making poor choices while she dodges some terrible emotions. But please don’t gang up on her. A rape flashback is like being bound and gagged and held underwater as all the light is extinguished from the universe.

63. I love the word: Misogynistic. Ooooh. He hates women. No, it’s not that we hate women, we are merely frustrated by their petty drama bullshit, changing moods from day to day with no apparent rhyme or reason and the way they use sex as a weapon.

    PTSD (I will just bet) is being defended on this board by the same people who use that weapon to great effect. She (like them I am sure) is playing emotional games and destroying a man’s life through a deliberate (or perhaps subconscious but nevertheless pleasing on many levels) sexual game of titillation and denial.

    Problem is they don’t need the ‘I was raped get out of being human card in order to use that inhuman tactic. Standard Operating Procedure for almost all of them.

64. I love the word: Misogynistic. Ooooh. He hates women. No, it’s not that we hate women, we are merely frustrated by their petty drama bullshit, changing moods from day to day with no apparent rhyme or reason and the way they use sex as a weapon.

    PTSD (I will just bet) is being defended on this board by the same people who use that weapon to great effect. She (like them I am sure) is playing emotional games and destroying a man’s life through a deliberate (or perhaps subconscious but nevertheless pleasing on many levels) sexual game of titillation and denial.

    Problem is they don’t need the ‘I was raped get out of being human card in order to use that inhuman tactic. Standard Operating Procedure for almost all of them.

    I would have been even harsher with this manipulative shrew.

65. Once the husband says stop and you don’t stop, you’re cheating openly.

    It’s up to him if he calls you on it and divorces you (he should!) but you will have to accept that your husband divorced you because you couldn’t be faithful to him.

    In time, this might hurt more than the assault.

66. I’d tend to get behind the two main “practical” points of the advice to PTSD — 1) get therapy so you can start getting to a place where that horrible experience won’t control you, and 2) at least consider putting the sexual relationship with the BF on hold while starting to pursue #1. OTOH, I just can’t get behind the tone of Dan’s response — dude, deal with the trauma first, *then* start sorting out everyone else’s reaction to the traumatized person’s experience.

    As for SUB — if he were gay, I’d be all over that. I know I can’t be the only dom who finds sub professionals hot, if for no other reason than professionals having such disproportionate social power these days. (If SUB has a certain amount of social power and SUB’s dom exerts total control over SUB…well, you see how it works.) There are definitely women who are looking for someone just like him.

67. 66: “OTOH, I just can’t get behind the tone of Dan’s response — dude, deal with the trauma first, *then* start sorting out everyone else’s reaction to the traumatized person’s experience.”

    Dude, the way she is going about it, she’s traumatizing other people herself. If she waits until she gets her shit figured out before taking the husband into account, there won’t be a marriage left to save.

    Refusing to give up the boyfriend IS selfish and cruel. She knows that breaks her husband’s heart, and she chooses to keep doing it anyway.

    Repeat: She knows that breaks her husband’s heart, and she chooses to keep doing it anyway.

    One more time: She knows that breaks her husband’s heart, and she chooses to keep doing it anyway.

    That concept cannot be overemphasized. Personally, I think she ought to write it out on the chalkboard five hundred times until it sinks in: “I know that this choice breaks my husband’s heart, and I choose to do it anyway.”

    Not “I just can’t do that, I need that outlet.” It’s, “I know that this choice breaks my husband’s heart, and I choose to do it anyway.”

    Getting traumatized does not confer a license to willfully traumatize the other people in turn — least of all the ones that you claim to love.

68. “I feel like I’ve already lost my former partner (fucked-up though that may seem) and my husband. It kills me to think about cutting out the one positive relationship remaining.”

    This, more than anything else, indicates to me that the Letter Writer checked out of the marriage long ago. I don’t understand what weirdness is tangled up between the rapist ex-partner and the husband, but of the three men that she mentions, not only is hubby clearly last in line in her emotions (she considers the rapist a loss? Seriously?), he is already cut loose in her mind. The only relationship she considers viable is with the new boyfriend.

69. As a straight Dom, I gotta say slapping around WPOS and making him lick my boots, etc. sounds like a lot of fun. As long as I don’t have to have any skin-to-skin contact with him, it would allow me to show off my Dom cred in (what for me would be) a safe environment. Check out some BDSM clubs or groups, you’re bound to get lucky.

70. I sit here in tears after looking at the It Gets Better web site and videos. I wish this existed when i was 12

    THANK YOU to everyone who became involved. It got better for me, it WILL get better for you. Reach out, dont be alone cos youre NOT. school only feels like forever, it ends and youre free to be yourself. I have great friends who accept me just as i am. I love them for it. I have a good life. We matter, we make a difference when we reach out to help, and reach out to get help. together we are strong. never forget that. dont let the bullies win, we deserve a life of happiness.

71. @professor.
    Wait…who uses sex as a weapon again?
    Rapists? no wait, women- those manipulative bitches living in the context of male sexual violence with their oh so annoying feelings- withold sex as a weapon. Because not having sex with a man is an act of violence.

    Freak. Laughable. Dig up your Mommy and Dr. Freud; you’ve got work to do.

    (LOL! my antispambot text was “MAGNUM”)

72. Soooo, the predomninate opinion on PTSD is that she should just see a therapist (aka “get over it”) and give her husband the kind of sex he wants, regardless of her issues?

    Kinda surprised to see that here.

73. Without confirmation from the husband, I question the validity of PTSD’s statement that the open marriage was working beautifully (for her husband). Altough supposition on my part, it seems apparent that at some point the importance of her relationship with the boyfriend superceded the importance of her marriage and relationship with her husband. I don’t pretend to possess any great knowledge about open relationships/marriages, but my understanding is that this would represent a material breach of the type of ground rules (re: emotional involvement with other parties) that are supposed to be agreed upon before openning a marriage/relationship. I would not be surprised by any of the following scenarios 1) the husband only grudging agreed to openning the marriage 2) he quickly became dissatisfied with the open marriage 3) he expressed his unhappiness (maybe not verbally), but the wife was having a great time and ignored his concerns/change in behavior 4) the husband has felt neglected for quite some time and his depression predates the current situation 5) she deluded herself or didn’t care that her husband wasn’t happy. Once again, without comment from the husband no reader can discern the what was actually going on. People believe what they want to believe, when it suits them, and justifies their actions or validate their desires. Many people will only face reality when they are forced to by a crisis. As a result of the assault and its aftermath, the husband is clearly stating his feelings and unhappiness and the wife can’t ignore them.

    PTSD does not say how long they have been married, what motivated/who proposed openning the marriage, what their sex life was like before openning the marriage or before the sexual assault. If such information was provided, it should not have been left out.

74. @50: That’s ridiculous. If you want an open relationship where both people have total veto power, fine, but to say it’s the only workable kind of relationship is silly. It seems very extreme to me. Not everyone is like you. For some of us who are non-monogamous, having our partner have that kind of control over our sex lives would be scary and feel confining.

    And if you don’t want a monogamous relationship in the first place, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to say that your partner can make you go back to monogamy. Wouldn’t that effectively end the relationship for someone who doesn’t want monogamy? Seems like that’s just another way of breaking up, which anyone can do at any time anyway.

75. 73: “Soooo, the predomninate opinion on PTSD is that she should just see a therapist (aka “get over it”) and give her husband the kind of sex he wants, regardless of her issues? “

    Close, but no. Read it again. She should recognize that, under the circumstances, her stance with regard to the boyfriend is killing her relationship with her husband. If you can’t grasp how, perhaps your partner needs to tell you for several months that he/she finds you viscerally repulsive, but meanwhile is more than happy to go fuck a different “friend.”

    She should be willing to give up the boyfriend and focus on her relationship with the husband until she gets her marriage back on track. It is assumed that sex is off the table for HIM for the duration of the healing process. That ain’t exactly giving “her husband the kind of sex he wants, regardless of her issues.” Frankly, being able to run away and blow off steam with the boyfriend has been allowing her to avoid those issues.

    And yes, she should see a therapist. To hear you talk, “getting over it” is a bad thing.

76. While true for any marriage/relationship/person, PTSD’s letter illustrates that these risks increase with open marriages/relationships simply because of the additional individuals involved. People who think they can control their emotions when sex is involved are only kidding themselves. Everyone runs the risk of a former partner reacting badly (gross understatement in this case) after breaking up.

    PTSD does not provide any information about her relationship with the former partner or the circumstances that lead to the former partner becoming a former partner. (I assume it was a man). Did he become a former partner before or after the assault.

    I’m confused, what did she mean when she said she felt like she’d already lost her former partner. Why would that be an issue if he already was a former partner before the assault. It sounds like she formed emotional attachments to/with her other partners. Isn’t that supposed to be avoided?

77. 75: He didn’t say that was the only workable kind of relationship. He said that was the only kind of workable relationship FOR HIM. And for others that feel the same way he does. Obviously that doesn’t include you, but you can count me among those who agree with him. As far as I am concerned, instant veto power is to open relationships what a safe-word is to exploring a kink.

    How many words out of that post did you skip?

    “Wouldn’t that effectively end the relationship for someone who doesn’t want monogamy?”

    Only if you don’t give a shit about your partner’s feelings, which is pretty much what refusing to call even a temporary time-out when your partner is unhappy tends to communicate.

78. @9 Your statement about PTSD having difficulty telling people about the assault is absurd. It is obvious that she has has told her husband, her boyfriend, and the world at large through a letter to this public forum (granted she has a generally understanding/accepting audience and the benefit of anonymity). Her husband would be a complete asshole if didn’t get her immediate medical attention following the assault, which would result in her having to talk about the assault with medical staff and possibly the police.

    No competent therapist would engage in victim blaming, if only to avoid a medical malpractice lawsuit. That has no bearing on her decision not to get counseling up to this point.

    However, I do wonder about the husband’s reaction and whether he is consciously or subconsciously blaming her. Rarely are women responsible for being sexually assaulted (if making bad or stupid decisions can be said to make one complicit or responsible/admittedly it is a poor analogy, but you are responsible for the consequences of drunken driving). Nothing ever justifies sexual assault or abuse (unless that is a woman’s kink). However, it was ultimately her decision to have voluntary sex at some point with her assailant that culminated in the assault. Would the assault have occurred without that decision, probably not. Is the husband blaming her for that decision? I repeat, nothing justifies sexual and I am not blaimg the wife for it. I am speculating on how the husband may have reacted and how it may have differed from the boyfriend’s reaction. The husband is more likely than the boyfriend to also feel violated since he by definition has more invested in their relationship. While she is the principal victim, she is not the only victim of the assault. All family members are more or less affected by a tragedy and have to deal with their feelings/emotions.

79. At some level does the wife blame the husband for openning the marriage and therefore the assault?

    How and through whom did the wife become involved with her assailant?

    Who was the assailant, a friend of her husband, one of his co-workers, his superior or boss, a member of his family?

80. PTSD needs professional help now. Unless he is a trained pyscho-therapist, her relationship with the boyfriend is not beneficial to her mental health. She is not going to get that help as long as she can rely on him as a crutch. All the time, energy, and emotions she devotes to the boyfriend is robbed from from her marriage and her husband.

    As with any situation with limited resources, tihs is very much a zero sum situation.

81. PSTD should set aside a quiet night with her husband, each take 120mg of pure MDMA together and talk the matter out. MDMA was found to be gold for couples’ counseling when used by Leo Ziff and other psychotherapists back in the 70s, and also what guys like Rick Doblin over at MAPS is trying to pave the way to bring back.

    Almost guaranteed to either bring the couple back together or allow them to see clearly and non-judmentally that its not going to work.

82. I doubt the sincerity of WPOS, too. I know that being a Sub is a legitimate kink (and I respect that), but just when the “It Gets Better” project is taking off, someone writes a letter to Dan saying that he’s a gay man who WANTS to be abused and humiliated by straights? To say that it’s ironic would be overlooking the obvious.

83. I think PSTD has a right to feel grief over the loss of her former partner. That’s a huge loss of trust and there is a lot of grief involved in that. I felt a lot of grief when I was raped by someone I knew. Because I thought he was my friend. I’m sure she thought her former partner was her friend. That’s a pretty huge betrayal and I think a lot of you are overlooking that.

    I don’t know what is triggering her and obviously she doesn’t either, but trust could be involved. Or perhaps she’s not able to give herself emotionally to her husband like she was able to in the past. I’m sure she consciously trusts her husband, but subconsciously, maybe not so much.

    Her relationship with her boyfriend might just be on a superficial level. If it’s just physical and with very little emotion then that might be why she’s connecting with him differently than with her husband.

    She needs serious therapy, and yes she needs to put the boyfriend aside. She’s stuck in a cycle of abuse and it’s including two innocent men.

84. @75 (WordyGrrl), no, you got it wrong. The predominant opinion is that she should get therapy (aka ‘therapy’) to solve her issues, only one of which is her problem with her husband. Whether or not they end up together or not is entirely up to her (and him).

85. My heart really goes out to you PTSD. I have had a very difficult time myself after being savagely raped by a ‘friend’, and then finding that the trauma was totally triggered by my husband, and that I was simply unable to turn off the sexual freeze. It was certainly not a matter of choice. Who would live with the horror of PTSD if they actually did have a choice? Anyway, it has taken a lot of therapy to get to the point where I am no longer triggered by his touch – hopefully sex will be next.

    Besides therapy and an understanding husband, what has helped me the most has been to research PTSD, so I could understand why I was acting the way I was, and also to read the stories of other rape survivors. I highly recommend ‘Denial’ by Jessica Stern-really helpful.

    Dan, I hope you might also get some more info about rape PTSD. In my experience it’s a different order of difficulty than the usual relationship difficulties, because it’s mediated by a primitive part of the brain that’s not under conscious control. I thought you were kinda harsh on PTSD. If anyone had accused me of being cruel to my husband it would have only added to the trauma, shame and guilt I was already feeling. It would have added another layer to what was already a really difficult recovery.

86. @15 & @62 & @73: You guys summarize my opinion pretty nicely. I’m really disappointed in Dan’s response.

    @50: That’s funny, all the open relationships that I know that haven’t crashed and burned don’t have a veto. Not having a veto means that you actually have to deal with the inevitable snags and problems, and treat your partners like human beings, not like masturbation toys that can be thrown away when they become inconvenient. Dealing with these problems, by addressing them and talking through them like adults instead of just freaking out and running away, strengthens all the relationships. Your position seems kind of craven.

87. @63

    Seriously? You’re going paint an entire group of people with one brush and pretend like you AREN’T a misogynist?

    You need to grow up. YES some women are manipulative. But so are some men. And there’s a whole spectrum of personalities in between.

    Men like you are disgusting. You’ve found an easy way to justify your prejudice and allow yourself to keep hating on ALL women when the problem is really in your own head.

88. As a survivor of incest, I have a hard time initiating sex with a regular partner – because such a person would end up *being family*. Knowing it’s irrational doesn’t help.

    I lead a monogamous sex life, and I love my 2-years partner. Ever since the relationship hit about 6 months I’ve been triggered every time I want sex. So I make myself initiate sex ; for now on, it works, after 10-15 min of fooling around the bad feelings subside and I can start enjoying the sex, and fully participate. I’m not gonna change partners every 2 months because of a damn trigger.

    And that’s after years of therapy, and more than 20 years after the actual events… I wouldn’t blame PTSD for what she’s living through.

    Get yourself into therapy – while you’re not to blame for what you feel, it makes you hurt your husband now. Don’t let this rape destroy all your life. And press charges ; don’t let the rapist steal other lives.

89. you know what i see no mention of in PTSD’s letter? a girlfriend the husband can go to for relief during this, or any mention of him ever having a girlfriend on the side. you’d think PTSD would mention it if he had one. “I told him to go fuck his girlfriend to feel better, but he said he wasn’t in the mood anymore.”

    maybe, as some of the comments have theorized, their marriage is only opened one way. not that this is a problem, if the husband’s cool with it and agreed to it, but that might be why he’s taking this so badly even though sexual assault was involved. if they had set some rules about this, what she’s doing would be straight-up cheating if the sexual assault hadn’t been the impetus behind the current predicament.

    however, since they had an open marriage before, the actual act of her fucking this other guy shouldn’t bother him that much, it’s the fact that it’s no longer happening within the confines of their agreement on the openess of their marriage. and the husband said he just wants her to stop until they can get help for their problem. i can see this working out for them if they get some counseling or something.

90. @73: Um, what? Nobody, not even Dan, is saying, “Get over it, go back and fuck your husband the way he needs it.”

    We’re saying, “Maybe you should put rushing back into a ‘normal’ life on hold — on HOLD — because clearly it’s *not normal anymore*.” The LW is basically dealing with this situation by doing whatever just glosses over the pain and ignoring what might actually serve to resolve it, at its core.

    Therapy IS “getting over it” — but constructively, while addressing and confronting as much of the problem as possible. It isn’t the snarky, flippant dismissal you’re using.

    Considering the husband and either working through this with him and/or ending his misery isn’t “go fuck him while you cry in your soul.” Nobody’s demanded this — not even the husband. Jesus.

91. I can completely relate to PTSD. I am a man in an open marriage, and after an emotional trauma I just couldn’t stand having sex with my wife. My wife didn’t understand why I could have tender, loving sex with my girlfriend, but not her. She is unwilling to be patient while I slowly heal, in the loving warm embrace of my girlfriend. I wish she could read PTSD’s letter so she could realize how selfish she is being, and attempt to truly understand my point of view.

92. Dear SEB:

    Hark, for I am what you claim to crave, a younger female dominant! And I have a bit of advice for you:

    Fetlife is NOT a dating website. It was built specifically to discourage that. While it is possible to meet people through it, if you’re cold messaging female tops I sort of see your problem, in that we she-doms, who are not there to be picked up, generally ignore or reject the steady flow of “want mistress plz!” messages in our inboxes.

93. @87

    Not craven, just aware of the emotional dangers. Been there in good situations and bad, and seen what works for me and what doesn’t.

    @75
    Avast2006 (#78) has captured my response to you. I am not saying that this is how it MUST be for everyone, but I would never be in an open relationship without it.

    Avast2006 – Your analogy is perfect. Veto power over secondaries is exactly like safewords in BDSM. They make a potentially dangerous situation safer.

    OK, some of you out there may be so emotionally and spiritually advanced that you can do without this. Good for you. But don’t look down on us mortals who want a little security.

    I am a firespinner, and always spin with a safety. I ride motorcycles only with a helmet on. I shoot guns with eye and ear protection. I jump out of airplanes, but only after checks to make sure my chute is packed correctly. It’s the same with BDSM and non-monogamy. I enjoy the edge more when I know I’ve got security. Others are welcome to follow their own hearts/genitals/risk profiles.

94. Dan’s comments are entirely, 100% consistent with ethical points he’s made in the past.

    How PTSD or anyone else feels doesn’t waive her responsibilities to other people. Quite frankly, PTSD is taking advantage of her husband’s sympathy. She’s replacing her primary partner, and he’s letting her get away with it because of circumstances.

    Here’s a thought experiment. Ignore the poly part for a second. Substitute “fucking the boyfriend” with “injecting heroin”. How many of you think she’s completely justified now, hmm?

    Last but not least, PTSD is also attempting to get Dan to validate a course of action which she knows is wrong. There’s no moral dilemma here and PTSD knows it.

95. @93 I haven’t actually sent any messages, I was merely lurking to get a sense of the demographics. Like I said, I’m looking for a real relationship (including friendship!), so “want mistress plz” isn’t really in my vocabulary either.

96. I would really like to hear what the nature of the sexual assault was. Any unwanted touching for the sexual gratification of the toucher is a sexual assault. There’s a huge continuum. You can’t assume PTSD was raped. And something about her letter makes me wonder just how serious the assault was. Getting groped is not as serious as getting raped, but they are both sexual assaults.

97. I can’t believe you could say that to PTSD. Not only does she get raped, but afterwards her husband pressures her into sex? If he knows he’s distressing her and yet he doesn’t step away and let her heal, then he’s the jerk in the relationship. Getting over sexual assault is far, far from easy. You can stay shell-shocked, confused for ages, and it’s incredibly naive to think that after that, someone can just make a to-do list and get over it after they’ve crossed out all the items on it.
    To summarize, she’s dealing with rape, he’s dealing with minor jealousy. Yet his feelings are more important, because in Dan Savage’s mind, this is 1950, except with less homophobia.
    I take it next week you’ll be back saying “OMG I was drunk, don’t take it personally, kthxbye!” Who do you think you are, Ernest Hemingway?

98. Just wanted to comment on the amazing project “It Gets Better”. Google employees have added their voices now (on Youtube, a Google product) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYLs4NCgv…

99. @78: If one person wants monogamy and the other person doesn’t, that seems like a sexual incompatibility. If the relationship doesn’t work for you, or if you’re incompatible, ending it doesn’t mean that you “don’t give a shit about your partner’s feelings.”

    If you don’t want or can’t deal with a monogamous relationship, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for your partner to be able to demand one on a whim, and in such a situation, where your partner can’t handle it, the reasonable thing to do is recognize that you’re no longer compatible and end things.

    @94: That’s totally cool that the veto makes you feel safe, and I have no problem with that. The original post made it sound like you were saying “THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR SAFETY IN GENERAL,” like a safe word is, which I strongly disagree with (at least for me personally).

    See, I would actually feel very unsafe in a relationship where I had the obligation to terminate existing sexual relationships if my partner asked. That seems incredibly controlling. While I understand the desire for security, the veto system wouldn’t really give me that: not because I’m emotionally or spiritually advanced, but because I find security in different places.

100. Good for you, Dan, to print a letter that was such obvious horseshit (Two clits? Give me a break …)

     It’s a great way to signal to the anonymous adolescent who wrote it 1) You are on to them 2) You know crap when you read it, and 3) You aren’t impressed.

     Hopefully, printing the occasional dumb-ass fake letter will serve as a deterrent to the other emotionally retarded types who seek to waste your time.

101. @ 62
     It’s apparent that you completely pulled the whole “selective reading” issue here. PTSD obviously has NO issue with, as you put it, committed relationship type sex. She loves to have sex with her boyfriend, and doesn’t want to leave him or stop (which defines THAT relationship as committed- despite it being secondary or any other way…, it’s consistant, it’s committed). Casual wouldn’t be something repeatedly sought after and fought for. So, while understanding your point, your sending it in the wrong direction. She obviously doesn’t have the same issue. She just wants freedom, from her husband. This isn’t a PTSD issue, it’s about not wanting to be married to her husband. So, as stated by so many- it’s cruel, it’s wrong and she needs to let him know she’s done with the relationship so he can move on in life. Instead, she’s just being selfish and controlling.

102. @ 98
     I’m afraid you’re completely off your rocker! So, the HUSBAND is selfish because while she needs to heal, by fucking somebody other than him, who- by being married, they should solve these problems together, not by going out and looking for other fuck buddies, he is hurt and requests for her to focus on him and their relationship. You’re so right, that selfish bastard. Give me a break. You, my friend, certainly need to open your eyes. The husband’s feelings are quite justified. And I’m quite certain, if this situation were upon you, and you were the husband- you’d feel quite similar.

103. To ALL who think that what PTSD is doing-
     answer me this.
     Since PTSD can just go out and continue fucking her boyfriend, (who indeed she’s obviously showing more effort to keep something going with than her husband)
     Would it then be ok for the husband to just go do his own thing, no holds barred. Go find a girlfriend, fuck her, only her, want her only her. Hell, let’s go to the extremes, because, let’s face it, with this “open” relationship, that she obviously doesn’t feel should have ANY boundaries, he doesn’t even have to return home, expect maybe to catch a bite to eat, pay the bills and perhaps change clothes. Sounds fair to me. A tit for a tat.

104. Awesome column dan! Ptsd playing the victim card like that was very wrong. Even before I got to your response I was hoping you would call her out on that.

105. Awesome column dan! Ptsd playing the victim card like that was very wrong. Even before I got to your response I was hoping you would call her out on that.

106. @ 92 – are you in therapy?

     Are you doing anything other than “slowly healing” by continuing to give a portion of the things shared in marriage outside the marriage only?

     You may have BEEN traumatized, but what you are doing right now is TRAUMATIZING your wife – and not because she’s an unreasonable jealous person.

     If you have looked for every other way and this is the ONLY way – then okay. But otherwise, your wife might be being a little selfish and not understanding, but YOU are being HUGELY selfish.

     That your chosen method is *A* method that works for you does not mean it necessarily the *ONLY* method you could use. If you are unwilling to investigate and try the other methods or use a method which might take a little more time, but preserve your marriage, then all you are saying is “my needs are more important than yours” rather than the message that partnership – PARTNERship such as marriage deserves “your needs are as important as mine”.

107. @107

     i think 92 was trying to pull the ol’ “switch the genders in the situation to prove gender bias” trick.

     i think most here seem to be in agreement that what PTSD is doing isn’t cool, the schism seems to be between whether or not the marriage is doomed because of this. I guess we’d need to know more specifics of their open marriage arrangement to know how likely they are to make it through this issue.

108. I’m pretty sure #92 is a joke. Or sarcasm.

109. On the most recent Savage Love podcast, a young woman called in to confess that she got very drunk one night and had regretful, gray area sex. One of the only things she remembered is that she did say yes. After the sex, she felt so terrible, dirty etc that she told people she had been raped by this man. On her message, she said she felt awful that she was lying, but she still did it. Dan was incredibly gentle with her, and didn’t tell her she was cruel and using her “get out of being human free card.” Surely that woman was doing more damage to the life of that guy by telling others he RAPED her when, in fact, the conversation was more complicated, than PSTD is with her husband? I do believe he is suffering, and I feel awful for them both, but I think people themselves are being cruel here.

110. @ 108. Duh. That makes sense. I plead a long work day.

111. Ouch. I hope PTSD isn’t actually reading all of these nasty responses, after Dan verbally slammed on her.

     I hope she actually finds someone who’s willing to hear her out, without judging her — because having been raped, I know how terrible the judgmental voice in your head already is, without everyone else piling on about how so and so is not acting like a *human being*! (Man. Since when does handling things badly in a relationship mean that you’re suddenly disqualified from being a member of the human race? That seems a bit extreme, don’t you think?)

     “Get therapy” is solid advice, but a bit simplistic — not every therapist is going to be a good listener, not every therapist is going to be compatible with your needs, and not every therapist is going to ask the right questions about the polyamory situation, and be able to withhold judgments.

     “Get rid of the boyfriend” is also a simplistic piece of advice. The problem is that the husband feels bad — but he will *continue* to feel bad if she gets rid of the boyfriend only to be miserable because she was bullied into doing so. It’s very hard for people to give up what they love, but I hear a lot of people essentially asking her to do just that, without asking any questions about whether her relationship with her husband is stable enough to be able to handle such a maneuver and the ensuing depression likely to come up.

     FWIW, I think couple’s counseling for both couples is just as important as individual therapy, in this case. It’s likely that there’s some level of not-talking-about-what’s-in-her-head happening with both of her partners. What is she telling one partner that she’s not telling the other? What isn’t she telling the partners about each other, and her relationship with each? That affects how she views herself and each of her relationships.

     Good luck, PTSD.

112. PTSD-
     I say this from experience, both as someone who received therapy in the past and the wife of a man who had a traumatic psychotic episode and spent a year in recovery:
     get therapy, NOW. please. I suggest cognitive behavioral therapy, because it seems to work very well and more quickly than analysis. It’s not as scary as it seems, I promise. No excuses. get therapy. If you’ve never done therapy before, here’s what to expect:
     practice the healthy behavior you’re trying to achieve until you can do it on your own. You start out small, with the expert guidance of a counselor, and you never take on more than you can handle. You learn what you can expect of yourself, and learn what is your new ‘normal.’ Another great thing about therapy is that therapists approach your problems with helpful solutions, they won’t be thick-headed @ssholes like some ppl in these comments and won’t expect you to muscle your way through with magical will power. You’re feeling sick, so see a doctor. Immediately.
     You write about your problem being sex with your husband but that seems to me to be secondary to healing. Your husband may be jealous and angry but this man loves you and vowed “for better or worse” (presumably) so I’ll bet he’s more than willing to put aside his legitimate troubles and help you heal. Maybe cool off the sex with the boyfriend for now; my guess is once you’ve established a relationship with a therapist and your bf is not your one and only outlet, it’ll be easier to put the sex on hold.
     My guess is that once you are on the road to learning to take care of yourself your husband won’t be as angry, etc. When my husband was sick it was possibly the worst experience of my life, so… he could be a little bit irritable in general. It might be about more than just sex, since he is also coping with your sexual assault. The good news for all of you is that your getting the help you need is also going to help everyone else. Win/win.

113. PTSD-
     I say this from experience, both as someone who received therapy in the past and the wife of a man who had a traumatic psychotic episode and spent a year in recovery:
     get therapy, NOW. please. I suggest cognitive behavioral therapy, because it seems to work very well and more quickly than analysis. It’s not as scary as it seems, I promise. No excuses. get therapy. If you’ve never done therapy before, here’s what to expect:
     practice the healthy behavior you’re trying to achieve until you can do it on your own. You start out small, with the expert guidance of a counselor, and you never take on more than you can handle. You learn what you can expect of yourself, and learn what is your new ‘normal.’ Another great thing about therapy is that therapists approach your problems with helpful solutions, they won’t be thick-headed @ssholes like some ppl in these comments and won’t expect you to muscle your way through with magical will power. You’re feeling sick, so see a doctor. Immediately.
     You write about your problem being sex with your husband but that seems to me to be secondary to healing. Your husband may be jealous and angry but this man loves you and vowed “for better or worse” (presumably) so I’ll bet he’s more than willing to put aside his legitimate troubles and help you heal. Maybe cool off the sex with the boyfriend for now; my guess is once you’ve established a relationship with a therapist and your bf is not your one and only outlet, it’ll be easier to put the sex on hold.
     My guess is that once you are on the road to learning to take care of yourself your husband won’t be as angry, etc. When my husband was sick it was possibly the worst experience of my life, so… he could be a little bit irritable in general. It might be about more than just sex, since he is also coping with your sexual assault. The good news for all of you is that your getting the help you need is also going to help everyone else. Win/win.

114. @104 — That’s not a solution. At best, that’s going to inflict extra guilt on the wife and make things even worse by waving it in her face.

     @110 — That’s a different situation altogether, and not just because the woman in the podcast wasn’t in a relationship that was suffering over what happened (although that is a big part of it). Dan also tells her to get some counseling and clear things up if the accusation was public or charges were pressed.

115. I am sure hoping the husband is not bothering to pay any bills for this woman who, allegedly, is his wife. The boyfriend getting the pussy can pay those.

     To all those people saying “shame on him for pressuring her–she needs to heal!” Fine. Let her. And let him get on with his life.

     But this marriage is over, at her election. My guess is she would admit this, except she must need his income to make her current lifestyle choices work. Hence the have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too-stuff about sex with BF is A-okay (sly wink), but (sniffle) I am not ready to handle my husband’s needs (sniffle), not yet. (sniffle) It is…too soon.

     Right. I am guessing some more that if husband came home and said “I lost my job!”, wife would move in with boyfriend.

116. It’s so nice to see someone taking the feelings of both parties into account. The way that Dan totally clued into the fact that the husband’s emotional abuse (because I can’t see anyone actually being stupid enough to deny that jealousy, anger, accusations and demands instead of loving support constitutes emotional abuse) might have something to do with the wife not wanting to sleep with him was really great. Way to be a class act, Dan.

117. It’s so nice to see someone taking the feelings of both parties into account. The way that Dan totally clued into the fact that the husband’s emotional abuse (because I can’t see anyone actually being stupid enough to deny that jealousy, anger, accusations and demands instead of loving support constitutes emotional abuse) might have something to do with the wife not wanting to sleep with him was really great. Way to be a class act, Dan.

118. It’s so nice to see someone taking the feelings of both parties into account. The way that Dan totally clued into the fact that the husband’s emotional abuse (because I can’t see anyone actually being stupid enough to deny that jealousy, anger, accusations and demands instead of loving support constitutes emotional abuse) might have something to do with the wife not wanting to sleep with him was really great. Way to be a class act, Dan.

119. PTSD- Dan Savage is being a total shit. Many of the commenters here are being total shits. And, as far as I can tell, your husband is being a total shit. He’s certainly allowed to feeling hurt, angry, depressed, etc.,- but demanding that you cut out the one thing that’s helping you so that he doesn’t have to feel bad anymore? That’s pretty shitty. You don’t owe him sex. I’ll repeat that, because it’s important: despite popular opinion, YOU DO NOT OWE YOUR SPOUSE SEX.

     I want to add something someone I know said about this when she heard your story, because I haven’t seen it posted elsewhere here (and I’m sorry to her if she’s already posted it here!): your husband is treating your sexual autonomy as contingent on his sexual satisfaction. I mean, I know that sometimes the rules and boundaries of open relationships change, but specifically trying to limit you in response to his own bad feelings? That’s not mature. That’s not good poly.

     So, in sum, don’t listen to all the people here telling you how awful you are. Victim-blaming is endemic in our culture, as is making everything the woman’s responsibility, and I’m sorry you’re having to see some of that now, while you’re already hurting.

     While you don’t have to listen to me, either, I do suggest finding a professional to help. I’m a big fan of therapy. It would be good for your husband to see one, too, either by doing some joint sessions with you, or by going separately, to help him deal with what happened to you and the resulting trauma, and changes in your lives. (I suspect what he actually needs is reassurance, and he needs (perhaps with your help, if you’re both able and willing) to find ways to get that without trying to coerce you into having unwanted sex with him and without trying control your outside sex life.)

120. Hmmm…. I don’t see anyone here (or even her husband) trying to coerce her into having sex with her husband. What people are pointing out (with, I admit, varying degrees of, uh, sensitivity) is that not only is she hurting (so she really should get into therapy) but her husband is *also* hurting, and she needs to address that.

     The only person I blame here is the one who assaulted her in the first place.

121. Um, sorry, yes.
     Yes, you do owe your spouse sex. Unless you made some kind of serious pre-nup disclaimer, you do owe your spouse sex, and he owes it to you.

     If my husband were to declare one day, for whatever reason, that he would no longer be having any sex with me, he would basically be putting our marriage up on the table for re-evaluation, and perhaps a guilt-free termination on my part. A willing sex-partner is pretty much understood to be part of the marriage package, certain conditions notwithstanding. (I have a temporary medical condition; you have gained 85 pounds and stopped bathing, etc.)
     And anyone who thinks that a full-stop termination of sex with their spouse does not morally justify the spouse terminating the marriage has a pretty rare take on the concept.

122. “Pervertible.” Hooray! Never heard that word before.

123. See the stupidity of men who marry sluts.

124. Am I the only one wondering if she is for some reason victimizing or punishing her husband to externalize what she is experiencing? It’s not cool, and it’s not fair.

     I can tell you first-hand: you aren’t gonna get better if you don’t have therapy. PTSD needs to spend a lot more time on a therapist’s couch and less time in the sack.

125. Am I the only one wondering if she is for some reason victimizing or punishing her husband to externalize what she is experiencing? It’s not cool, and it’s not fair.

     I can tell you first-hand: you aren’t gonna get better if you don’t have therapy. PTSD needs to spend a lot more time on a therapist’s couch and less time in the sack.

126. @112 – Why don’t you just admit that as soon as you read the words “sexual assault,” you decided that PTSD should be able to do whatever she wants, and that if there’s any conflict with her husband, he must be the bad guy?

     No one’s said that therapy will instantly cure her problems. Therapy is being brought up because it’s advisable for any victim of sexual assault to do so, and also because PTSD can’t claim to care very much about her husband’s feelings when she insists on avoiding therapy AND continuing to see the boyfriend.

     And it is most certainly not bullying for the husband to say, “If you refuse to have sex with me, I don’t want you having sex with anyone else.” He shouldn’t even have to say it. It says a lot that your biases that you would use the word “bullying” in this context.

     If PTSD’s letter said, “I was sexually assaulted, and now I have no interest in sex with anyone, and my husband can’t accept that,” then I doubt anyone would be defending the husband. If it had said, “I’m disgusted by my husband’s touch, but not my lover’s, so I dropped the lover for the time being,” then the tone of the responses would be very different, also. But that’s not what her letter said.

127. Hate to say it, once someones touch makes your skin crawl it’s usually permanent and the relationship is over. And it’s quite possible he never really turned her on much anyway. This is very sad.

128. I wish you had been kinder, Dan. Stating that someone is acting like a total shit because they can’t negotiate their sex life 5 months after a sexual assault, even if it’s true, feels fucking mean, and unnecessary. I’m not saying you had to hold her hand, or baby her, but you certainly didn’t have to flat out insult her. This woman is fucked up and making poor choices as the result of a recent trauma. No, it does not give her a pass, but it should have at least sparked enough compassion in you to not call her names.

129. “PTSD- Dan Savage is being a total shit. Many of the commenters here are being total shits. And, as far as I can tell, your husband is being a total shit.”

     When you meet ten assholes in a day and wonder how so many people can be so mean, guess what? More likely than not, you are the asshole, not them.

     “YOU DO NOT OWE YOUR SPOUSE SEX.”

     Please don’t marry anyone. For their sake.

130. @120: “your husband is treating your sexual autonomy as contingent on his sexual satisfaction. I mean, I know that sometimes the rules and boundaries of open relationships change, but specifically trying to limit you in response to his own bad feelings?”

     So “sexual satisfaction” can be fairly compared to “not being treated during sex or sexual touching like a creepy monster on par with her rapist”? A “bad feeling” can be equated with being treated with revulsion?

     This guy isn’t whining that his wife isn’t servicing him, or simply isn’t sexually attracted to him. He’s hurt that his wife finds him *disgusting* and *fears* him.

     Maybe once she works through the disgust and panic, she’ll still discover that she doesn’t find him sexually attractive anymore. But that’s another issue.

     And as far as we know, her relationship with her BF has existed before, and her husband’s jealousy is a recent development. Apparently, he’s been able to deal with his sexual satisfaction while also giving his wife sexual autonomy. Give the man some credit.

131. @100
     I find the notion that someone finds security in having the freedom to screw whoever you want whenever you want, and your partner just has to deal with it… disturbing. I guess it takes all types, though. You’re a free spirit, and I hope that it works well for you. No doubt there are people who are OK with being in relationships like that. I’m just not one of them.

     I think that American culture focuses so much on maximal individual happiness and self-actualization that we lose sight of the importance of loyalty and duty, and the bonds of a network of relationships that carry some obligations and responsibilities. This is a byproduct of being an extremely wealthy society – prosperity reduces the degree to which we are forced to rely on our family and community. Overall, I think that individuality and self-actualization are wonderful, but something is lost when we focus on these things exclusively.

     @129
     This isn’t about “negotiating one’s sex life”. I don’t care if you’ve been sexually assaulted or not, if you know that someone you claim to love is suffering because you won’t restrain your need to satisfy your genitals with others, and you keep doing it, in my book you’ve lost all credibility when you use the word “love”. No one is saying that PTSD should be having sex with her husband. But for her to keep having sex with her boyfriend while her husband is miserable about it is completely beyond the pale.

     At this point, if I could talk to PTSD’s husband, I’d counsel him to leave even if she weren’t clearly getting ready to leave herself. If she puts her sexual gratification ahead of his misery he should run run run. If they don’t have kids and lots of property in common, he should thank his lucky stars that she has shown her true colors now and cut his losses. I know that this sounds harsh, and I am betting he won’t do that… as I would have trouble following such advice myself, because of wanting to provide support to the person I promised to love and cherish for ever. Still, she is treating him like crap, and he needs to realize what that says about what he can expect from her in their future life together, if there is any.

132. Hey SUB, it’s just as tough for a woman ur age to find a dom/sub in his 20’s or 30’s.

     So far I’ve only found guys who are 40+ or married. Plus I’m in a straight-laced city in Asia.

     I hope you’d find your perfect Dom soon, holla at me if you’re in Asia 🙂

133. Hey SUB, it’s just as tough for a woman ur age to find a dom/sub in his 20’s or 30’s.

     So far I’ve only found guys who are 40+ or married. Plus I’m in a straight-laced city in Asia.

     I hope you’d find your perfect Dom soon, holla at me if you’re in Asia 🙂

134. You are a piece of shit, Dan Savage. Who the fuck gave YOU a Get Out of Being a Human Being Free card? You shouldn’t be writing an advice column at all. You are an angry dick who gives terrible advice and has no clue how to relate to people.

135. your advice today to PTSD is short-sighted and rather lacking. it’s been just 5 months since she was assaulted, not 5 years or anything close to it.
     although you have great heart in some manners, I’m sorry this doesn’t appear to be one of them.

136. WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it’s just wonderful what you and everyone else is doing!!! We NEED far more to this!!!! It Gets Better Project! — KEEP pushing!!!!!!!

137. Wow. Just, wow.

     Fuck you, Dan Savage. The least you could have done was direct her to some sexual assault recovery help. But no. She’s being a “total shit.”

     Seriously, fuck you and everyone on this fucked up thread acting like she is somehow abusing her husband. Rape culture, indeed.

     http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2…

138. Married people with boyfriends and girlfriends, therein lies your problem. Why the heck are they even married?! Monumentally stupid is what they both are.

139. @138

     She is abusing her husband, femwanderluster. Not by not screwing him, but by continuing to screw her boyfriend, knowing that her husband is suffering because of it. Her trauma does not change her obligation not to walk all over the feelings of someone she claims to love.

140. @139

     Sorry, srevits, but there ARE married couples who are loving, committed, loyal, responsible, sane, considerate, ethical, and non-monogamous. You’re just reading about the trainwrecks here because the successful ones don’t write in for advice.

141. Fuck you, Dan. How dare you tell PTSD “I hope you’ve told the police.” The decision to notify the police over a crime that has been committed against oneself, especially a crime like sexual assault, is a very personal one and only the victim should be making that. You do not have the right to try to guilt her into reporting the incident if she has decided that it’s better for her to not report it.

142. Fuck you, Dan. How dare you tell PTSD “I hope you’ve told the police.” The decision to notify the police over a crime that has been committed against oneself, especially a crime like sexual assault, is a very personal one and only the victim should be making that. You do not have the right to try to guilt her into reporting the incident if she has decided that it’s better for her to not report it.

143. @ 142

     I think Dan might have said that because many rapists tend to keep on raping, and pressing charges might stop him, at least for a little while. I agree that there are times when a victim is better served by not reporting it–if there is no physical evidence, and, as in this case, the victim had a previous sexual relationship with her assailant. Pressing charges might only succeed in causing her pain, and whether or not she thinks it’s worth it is obviously her choice. However, Dan wouldn’t be giving very good advice if he didn’t urge her (rather gently, I thought) to tell the police. Too many rapes are never successfully prosecuted, and that only changes on a victim-by-victim basis.

144. @140–I disagree.

     By all means, let’s put the husband’s feelings first because he’s got no responsibility at all for his own feelings or to be a supporting partner to his wife, a survivor of sexual assault. It seems to me that anyone on this thread who’s doing that has absolutely no idea what they’re talking about re:sexual assault and it’s consequences on a survivor.

     Melissa McEwan at Shakesville:
     “Because it’s cruel and selfish, it’s downright “emotional assault,” to not have sex with her husband while she’s having sex with the boyfriend her husband was totes okay with her having, as long as she was fucking him, too…

     Yes, it’s difficult to understand why, after being sexually assaulted, she doesn’t want to have sex with someone who considers her autonomy a negotiable item, contingent upon whether she’s sexually servicing him.”

     She mentions that she HAS had sex with her husband despite not wanting to, which screams to me of pressure from him. Pressuring the woman you’re supposed to love who was recently a victim of sexual assault = awful, awful, bad idea. No wonder she doesn’t want to–he’s emotionally coercing her. So yeah, she’s going to associate him with the same line of guy who assaulted her.

     Gah, where are people’s hearts and minds here? Oh…I see them, they make up the sad sack balls of the the rape culture’s wang.

145. @ 140

     Abuse my ass. Abuse is the manipulative, deliberate desire to control and hurt someone else via some sort of power (violence/sex/etc). Trying to cope with the deep emotional trauma of a recent rape without perfect grace and unwillingly hurting people in the process is NOT abuse.

     I mean, for god’s sake, you’re acting like she’s lying in bed with her boyfriend cackling evilly. She KNOWS she’s hurting other people, but, shock and surprise, she’s an emotional wreck trying to deal with what she’s going through. Again, that is not abuse. Abusers do not realize that their actions hurt others, grieve over it, and ask for help so they can stop. So stop misusing that word. It’s not abuse when a man gets JEALOUS, for fuck’s sake.

     And for all the talk about responsibility and obligation, what about the husband? Where’s him realizing that his wife is not exactly emotionally rational, is not hurting him on purpose, knows it shouldn’t be all about him and ‘get over’ his own emotional fallout to this situation? Everyone is laying all the responsibilty on her to fix a situation she had no choice in, but not a single word about the husband dealing with his own emotions that are making the situation worse (and they ARE, for making a rape victim feel more shame and guilt than she already does).

     People react badly when they’re not all together, whether it’s rape, drugs, grieving, mental illness, and they sometimes hurt the people they love. If those people actually loved them BACK in any meaningful way, they’d deal with the pain and try to help the person who is in MORE PAIN. But then, it’s easier to just blame the victim and just say she’s just a big horrible meanie for not considering THEIR feelings while she goes through hell.

146. Dan is right. Yeah, it’s mean to her. Yeah, it’s being harsh to a victim. Too fucking bad. It’s true. What happened to her was awful and inexcusable, and what she’s doing is also awful and also inexcusable. Having something bad happen to you does not allow you to do something bad to someone else guilt-free, due to karma or the universe balancing out or whatever bullshit reason you think.

     Basically: “victim” and “victimizer” are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! She is a victim and a victimizer.

     I am not blaming the victim. Most people here are not blaming the victim. But neither are we automatically assuming that a victim goes through a period of blamelessness for any subsequent actions. Those commenters who believe the woman can do no wrong, that sexual assault so damages a person that they are relieved of their obligations to behave in a decent fashion– those commenters are perpetuating the “rape culture” they so decry.

     This is an important point:
     You can be both a VICTIM and a VICTIMIZER.
     Repeat:
     YOU CAN BE BOTH A VICTIM AND A VICTIMIZER. THESE CATEGORIES ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. REPEAT THAT UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND IT.

147. @145 “they make up the sad sack balls of the the rape culture’s wang.” Amazing! You have a gift for words.

     And I forgot to add in my response: Dan, this is one of those times you’ve got to own up to the bullying things you’ve said or lose your credibility. Seriously, if you don’t understand mental illness or emotional trauma, call in an expert or something. Because there is NO WAY you *get it* on any level. You’re making it worse for her and setting a bullying example.

148. To echo what a lot of commenters have said: No one is suggesting that PTSD must have sex with her husband, just that continuing to have sex with her boyfriend is truly unkind (I wouldn’t say “abuse,” that’s a loaded word). If this were your relationship, and your partner came home in a glow from all the otherworldly sex he/she is having with their secondary partner and then shuddered in disgust when ever YOU tried to touch them, would that not hurt you terribly? Especially if, 5 months after their horrible assault, your partner was only *considering* therapy??? I imagine PTSD’s husband might have an easier time of it if her current “therapy” consisted of more than fucking her boyfriend. She can’t keep claiming victimhood if she isn’t willing to get the help that she needs.

149. Geeze people are reacting strangely.

     Maybe calling her a “total shit” might have been a bit over the top, but otherwise, seems like he’s giving reasonable advice to a person that’s concerned about herself and her husband.

150. hey 122, I’m pretty sure a lot of people think it’s ok to just up and stop having sex one day. I’m pretty sure Dan’s inbox is flooded with people married to them. I’m pretty sure the vast majority of them are women. And this is why I thank my lucky stars day after day I’m not a lesbian.

151. 146: Hurting someone else is still hurting them, regardless of whether you are in control of yourself at the moment the hurt occurred. The person being hurt has no obligation to stand there and take it, either.

     The pressure is on her to fix it because she is the only person who CAN. The issue resides in her mind, nobody else’s. Nobody else can make her skin stop crawling FOR HER.

     The fact that she has been content to let it ride indicates to me she isn’t particularly interested in fixing it.

152. Wow, the PTSD article, and a lot of the “Oh Rape Culture, Rape Culture!” responses leave me speechless. She can’t take care of anyone until she takes care of herself. It’s also quite possible in addition to brutally leaving her husband out in the cold with no outlet for affection (not talking sex here, just warmth…), she’s “using” the other dude too for mindless sex. I agree with everybody who said she’s being a shit for giving her husband the cold shoulder without getting help. It’s one thing to say “I’m not ready yet” or “you do things which my assaulter did, and I can’t yet get over that”, it’s quite another to leave him clueless and out in the cold without hope. Effectively saying “Uh, I’m ready with everyone but you and you’ll just have to wait out here in the cold, until I actually commit to getting help, meanwhile I’ll be out boning this other dude, see you later.” is really her abusing the trust of the ones who love her. e.g. being a total shit. Either be worthy of their trust and hope and loyalty, or don’t. Don’t pretend to be.

153. Wow, the PTSD article, and a lot of the “Oh Rape Culture, Rape Culture!” responses leave me speechless. She can’t take care of anyone until she takes care of herself. It’s also quite possible in addition to brutally leaving her husband out in the cold with no outlet for affection (not talking sex here, just warmth…), she’s “using” the other dude too for mindless sex. I agree with everybody who said she’s being a shit for giving her husband the cold shoulder without getting help. It’s one thing to say “I’m not ready yet” or “you do things which my assaulter did, and I can’t yet get over that”, it’s quite another to leave him clueless and out in the cold without hope. Effectively saying “Uh, I’m ready with everyone but you and you’ll just have to wait out here in the cold, until I actually commit to getting help, meanwhile I’ll be out boning this other dude, see you later.” is really her abusing the trust of the ones who love her. e.g. being a total shit. Either be worthy of their trust and hope and loyalty, or don’t. Don’t pretend to be.

154. @129:
     This isn’t therapy, it’s an advice column. Ordinarily, I’d agree that it’s hyperbolic and unnecessarily cruel. Unfortunately, PTSD is not the only person involved. She’s literally pouring acid on her husband and her marriage, and a wake-up call is called for.

     On the topic of therapy, which PTSD certainly needs. A few years ago I saw an amazing psychotherapist. She really helped me, and I give her a lot of the credit for getting me to where I am now, or more accurately getting me to get me where I am now. She did so by reminding me, repeatedly, that I had to a) not let my emotions rule how I treated other people (which was very badly), then b) make decisions and c) live with the consequences.

     This wasn’t a matter of “healing” my wounds or “recovery” from whatever happened in said rough stretch. Those shouldn’t even be in PTSD’s vocabulary now, much less on her agenda, and to justify her conduct in these terms is fundamentally manipulative. I had to – and PTSD has to – start acting like a grown-up human being before even thinking about putting the finishing touches on my psyche.

     It’s much easier that way, too.

155. Neuromancer: Then why get married?

156. Ah! I see you got linked by Shakesville, that great blackhole of sanctimony. This will explain the handful of posters who suddenly show up telling us that it is PTSD’s _right_ to completely neglect her husband for her boyfriend, and doing nothing whatsoever to deal with these feelings she has. And how it is, of course, the husband’s duty to deal with the constant rejection and misery, and hope that someday she deigns to show him the affection she once did. Because being a sexual assault victim apparently relieves you of responsibility for all other relationships in your life from that point on, for ever.

     Ugh. What a sad situation. I think PTSD should just divorce her husband already. It sounds pretty clear to me that she doesn’t love him at this point; she just feels guilty for not loving him. It’s not her fault that she feels this way, but it needs to be resolved, and she doesn’t sound confident she can really be with him again.

157. Dan Savage – you are the total shit here. you are in no position to give out advice to people who are suffering PTSD from a sexual assault. you time and time again say the wrong thing and never apologize for it. the only thing that hopefully “gets better” is your understanding on sexual assault and its impact on a person.

     it makes my skin crawl that you are often thought of as a gay rights activist. as a gay man i would never align myself with the irresponsible, un-researched and off the cuff crap that you say. this piece is not only awful but speaks to your insincerity and self delusion.

     next time someone asks you something you are unqualified to handle, simply dont answer or refer them to someone who actually has a grasp on something more than the vehicle to fame by any means.

158. Dan Savage – you are the total shit here. you are in no position to give out advice to people who are suffering PTSD from a sexual assault. you time and time again say the wrong thing and never apologize for it. the only thing that hopefully “gets better” is your understanding on sexual assault and its impact on a person.

     it makes my skin crawl that you are often thought of as a gay rights activist. as a gay man i would never align myself with the irresponsible, un-researched and off the cuff crap that you say. this piece is not only awful but speaks to your insincerity and self delusion.

     next time someone asks you something you are unqualified to handle, simply dont answer or refer them to someone who actually has a grasp on something more than the vehicle to fame by any means.

159. I love how Shakesville shut down the comments at the FIRST comment that didn’t unequivocally agree with the author

160. Wow, beestings, I think if you sift through the archives of Savage Love you’ll find plenty of suitably charitable advice to victims of sexual assault. And in this column, you’ll note, he said “I’m sorry that you were sexually assaulted—that’s awful, PTSD, and I hope you went to the police and I hope you’re pressing charges.” But PTSD did write to ask Dan’s advice on the matter, not to just get sympathy. She feels guilty because she *knows* that the way she’s treating her husband isn’t right.

161. Wow, beestings, I think if you sift through the archives of Savage Love you’ll find plenty of suitably charitable advice to victims of sexual assault. And in this column, you’ll note, he said “I’m sorry that you were sexually assaulted—that’s awful, PTSD, and I hope you went to the police and I hope you’re pressing charges.” But PTSD did write to ask Dan’s advice on the matter, not to just get sympathy. She feels guilty because she *knows* that the way she’s treating her husband isn’t right.

162. Talk about being a “total shit”. Dan, you have no business counseling anyone who is a sexual assault survivor. You have no training and no innate understanding of this situation. You don’t seem to comprehend the incredibly complex set of triggers and responses that come from being assaulted – many of which do not appear to be related to an outsider’s point of view but can be resolved with therapy.

     Perhaps the reason sex with PSTD’s boyfriend is supportive and loving while sex with her husband is emotionally traumatizing is because her boyfriend is actually supportive and loving while her husband views her sexuality as something he owns and has rights to that she should be expected to provide for him at the expense of her now-traumatized emotional state, and her subconscious recognizes that with the light of the assault bringing out the worst in him, but the best in the boyfriend.

     PSTD: tell your husband to back the fuck off and get into therapy with a counselor who understands polyamorous relationships. A truly supportive and loving husband would want his wife to find happiness, love, and support when she needs it from whatever source she can find it, even if it’s not him.

163. geez, sorry about the billion postings. the server is a little overloaded, apparently.

164. Seriously, no, and hell no, Dan. Your comments to PTSD are the worst advice I have ever seen, let alone in your column.

     A sarcastic comment from a saner source: “Yes, it’s difficult to understand why, after being sexually assaulted, she doesn’t want to have sex with someone who considers her autonomy a negotiable item, contingent upon whether she’s sexually servicing him.”

     This woman has been assaulted, what does that mean? That means taking away someone’s choice about what they do with their body. Whether that’s done by force, or by emotional blackmail, that is a shitty thing to do. So now her husband is essentially setting her an ultimatum – “have sex with me (whether you enjoy it or not) or break up with the other person you care about and whose company you enjoy.”
     He may not be using physical force, but honestly it’s no wonder that PTSD is having trouble making love to her husband – the attitude is clearly all about his pleasure and none about hers.

     Yes, I know all about GGG, and sure, making the choice to try something a little out of the ordinary, to push one’s boundaries to please a partner makes perfect sense when you are GIVEN A CHOICE ABOUT IT. Beyond that, it may not be rape, quite, but it’s sure as hell not sexy. They’re in an open relationship, right? He can go get his needs met elsewhere too. Or masturbate, for F***’s sake – it’s not like she cut his hands off when she stopped ‘putting out’.

     My advice to a woman in this situation (as someone who’s come through a very similar one, in fact):
     Yes, seek therapy if you feel you need it.
     Yes, press charges if you feel you’re up to it, but only if.
     Keep on seeing the boyfriend who is supportive and gives you a great time, and if your husband continues to pressure you into putting out for him, it’s HIM that needs to be dropped. This is a sign that your happiness matters less to him than his own libido, and that isn’t love.

     The positive outlook: For me, it took several months to be able to relate sexually to anyone at all after my experience, and like you I found it harder to relate to the partner I already had – the more pressure I put on myself to do so, the harder it was. However my guy was patient, gentle, took things at my pace, and it came back eventually (we’re still very much together, and he gets on with my other partners fabulously).
     A couple of years on I find I’m still relating to people somewhat differently (some of it’s good, some of it is a little frustrating), but it *does* change, it does get better, and you will be able to get past it, with support, with time, and with RESPECT from your partners.

     I’m sorry you had to go through what you did, PTSD, and I’m sorry Dan was such a dick to you about it, too. I hope you get to read this.

165. @Joreth

     The HUSBAND need counselling and all the wife needs is to keep banging her guy-on-the-side?

     what the fuck kind of warped world do you live in?

166. @Doot I live in a world where my partners do not think they own my body or my time, and where my partners want the best for me regardless of what that is.

     Second of all, I did not say the husband needed counseling (although that’s not a bad idea), I told PSTD to get counseling and to tell her husband to back off.

     I’m sorry you live in a world where you can have your choices taken from you, then have your loved ones turn around and demand the same thing.

167. From what part of the letter do you get that the husband feels he owns his wife’s body? Read it a couple of times if you need to.

168. @167 – “I live in a world where my partners do not think they own my body or my time,”

     Apparently, they don’t own any actual compassion from you, either. Because if you can’t see how being constantly treated by one’s spouse as though you were toxic/revolting, while she cheerfully bathes in the romantic attention of others, could be incredibly painful in itself – and how showing at least the most basic concern for that might be the moral thing to do – then I’m glad I don’t live in _your_ world.

169. It’s also very telling that everyone on the blame-the-victim side all assumes the boyfriend is disposable & second class. If the boyfriend were the one pissed at PSTD for not wanting sex but still sleeping with her husband, everyone would be telling him he’s an asshole & that she should dump him. Having that piece of paper with one person does not tell us anything about the nature of the relationships involved, nor does it give one person the right to be an insensitive asshole. First of all, we can’t legally marry more than one person in the US, so having the title “boyfriend” doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a “secondary” or lower-priority partner. Second, even if he was a “lower-priority” partner, he is clearly providing something important to a victim of sexual assault that her spouse isn’t, which suggests that, if we have to compare relationships to each other & find a “winner”, that the boyfriend relationship is a better relationship for her than the husband relationship. Any monogamous husband who demands that his sexually-assaulted wife start servicing him and give up her poetry class as the only thing that gives her any feelings of self-worth because he’s jealous of the time she spends with her poetry buddies instead of him would be just as much in the wrong has PSTD’s husband is.

     People are not disposable, nor replaceable, regardless of whether or not one has a legal contract dealing with property rights. If you feel an attraction for one person but do not feel it for another, breaking up with one does not make you suddenly attracted to the one you weren’t previously attracted to. Breaking up with the boyfriend will not make PSTD want her husband any more, and may more likely cause even more damage between them because he will have been responsible for breaking her heart. And breaking your lover’s heart causes damage to your own relationship with your lover.

170. It’s also very telling that everyone on the blame-the-victim side all assumes the boyfriend is disposable & second class. If the boyfriend were the one pissed at PSTD for not wanting sex but still sleeping with her husband, everyone would be telling him he’s an asshole & that she should dump him. Having that piece of paper with one person does not tell us anything about the nature of the relationships involved, nor does it give one person the right to be an insensitive asshole. First of all, we can’t legally marry more than one person in the US, so having the title “boyfriend” doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a “secondary” or lower-priority partner. Second, even if he was a “lower-priority” partner, he is clearly providing something important to a victim of sexual assault that her spouse isn’t, which suggests that, if we have to compare relationships to each other & find a “winner”, that the boyfriend relationship is a better relationship for her than the husband relationship. Any monogamous husband who demands that his sexually-assaulted wife start servicing him and give up her poetry class as the only thing that gives her any feelings of self-worth because he’s jealous of the time she spends with her poetry buddies instead of him would be just as much in the wrong has PSTD’s husband is.

     People are not disposable, nor replaceable, regardless of whether or not one has a legal contract dealing with property rights. If you feel an attraction for one person but do not feel it for another, breaking up with one does not make you suddenly attracted to the one you weren’t previously attracted to. Breaking up with the boyfriend will not make PSTD want her husband any more, and may more likely cause even more damage between them because he will have been responsible for breaking her heart. And breaking your lover’s heart causes damage to your own relationship with your lover.

171. @171 – “It’s also very telling that everyone on the blame-the-victim side”

     Oh, please. Seriously, this is just dishonest. Not a single person here – no one! – has accused her of being responsible for her assault. Rather, she has been accused of not dealing with its effects on those around her constructively. You might think that’s cruel, and you might argue that they’re taking it too far, but having something terrible happen to you still doesn’t just free you of all responsibility for how your actions affect others.

172. @joreth It’s also very telling that you refer to the people who think this woman should cut her poor husband loose as the “blame the victim” side. In your world, one is either a victim, in which case anything one does is acceptable; or an abuser, in which case one cannot possibly suffer and does not have rights. This kind of black-and-white view is toxic to relationships and damaging to everyone involved in a sexual assault– the victim and the victim’s loved ones.

173. “A truly supportive and loving husband would want his wife to find happiness, love, and support when she needs it from whatever source she can find it, even if it’s not him.”

     The logical conclusion to that line of reasoning: “So divorce me already, go be with the guy that you obviously want to be with, and stop blowing smoke up my ass about how much you care for me. I make your skin crawl, idiot. Stop trying to pretend.”

174. No, my partners don’t “own” any compassion or anything else of me. I willingly share my compassion, my attention, my body, and my love with my partners, who do the same, but none of us “own” any of those things of the others.

     I never once said it didn’t suck to have a partner’s emotional state change from positive to negative. I can certainly understand *why* the husband would not like the state of things. But going from “I feel bad because of how you’re handling your traumatic experience” to “therefore I demand you give up your only source of joy and provide a service to me that is currently trigging your trauma” is the height of asshatery.

     The most basic concern that a sexual assault victim could show is a desire to overcome her experience, and seeking therapy is one method. She is not only under no obligation to submit to his demands to give up her single source of happiness & provide services that resemble/trigger her previous assault, but doing so would most likely cause further deterioration in her marriage, not to mention her own emotional state.

     He’s so busy feeling bad that he’s not getting serviced that he’s completely overlooking the fact that HIS WIFE WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED and may have issues to deal with before she can feel comfortable with other people – either in general, or specifically with those people who are triggering the exact same loss of control, choice, and freedom as her attacker.

     I feel sympathy for people who lose the interest of a loved one. I lose that sympathy when their desire to be loved and/or fucked overrides their own concern for that loved one and when they choose to demand self-serving actions instead of putting their own selfish desires on hold in order to support someone they supposedly love while she works through the problem.

     My world is filled with people who are supportive and compassionate and considerate, and who understand that wanting to get laid takes a backseat to getting a trauma victim’s emotional state back in order even though it means feeling some uncomfortable feelings in the meantime. For those who claim to be happy they don’t live in my world, I hope you remember that the next time you’re raped, assaulted, burgled, attacked, beat up, or otherwise traumatized and your loved ones tell you “I’m sorry you were attacked, but your issues make *me* feel bad, and that’s more important to me than your own feelings.”

175. @156: Maybe because they want to spend their lives together. Why shouldn’t they get married? Why would it matter whether they’re monogamous or not?

176. Why can’t PTSD and her husband *both* go to therapists (separately) and she gets to keep the boyfriend?

     This reminds me of a friend who mine who has migraines. After trying all the “official” migraine meds, she’s found that beer is the simplest, cheapest treatment with the least side effects. Yay for the unofficial treatment!

     Therapy is the official treatment, sex with your loving supportive bf is the unofficial treatment — I say do both, and have your husband do the same (i.e. his own therapy and his own sex with other partners). Together, you’ll get through this.

177. @132: I hope you don’t think I’m advocating complete selfishness or lack of consideration. There is a middle ground between screwing “whoever you want whenever you want, and your partner just has to deal with it,” and giving your partner complete veto power over your relationships (and even friendships, in the extreme).

     Of course in a good relationship the partners should be able to talk about other partners who make them uncomfortable. “I feel uncomfortable with you sleeping with X; let’s talk about it and see if we can come up with a compromise” is reasonable and I’d be very willing to respond to that. However, “I’m using my veto power on X; no more discussion, terminate your relationship with X now” is not something that gives me any security. I just don’t like being controlled like that.

     To put it another way, being able to freely make my own decisions about what to do in such a situation is exactly what gives me the space to consider my partner’s feelings. Because I want to and I care about my partner, not because I’m being forced to.

     Essentially, having someone be able to make ultimatums that I am expected to respond to, which is what veto power is, feels like a very abusive and controlling dynamic to me. I am interested and curious how this works for you and when this veto power gets used.

178. @Morosoph So I assume you have had absolute control over your own emotional state & libido the last time you were sexually assaulted?

     I never said she didn’t have responsibility to get herself fixed up, that’s why I suggested therapy. But the solution to “fixed up” is not to give up her boyfriend to assauge her husband’s damaged ego.

     @avast2006 You might think that’s the logical conclusion, but I certainly don’t. Triggers for an assault are extremely complex, and not wanting sex does not equal not caring for someone. Maybe you can’t love someone unless you’re having sex with them, but not everyone is that shallow.

     Plenty of people have gone on to have their relationships recover after a sexual assault, but it takes time and compassion and understanding and support from those around them. The husband is clearly not giving her that, which is probably *why* she is being triggered in this way.

     This is why laypeople have no business giving advice for mental health issues – they don’t understand the complexity involved, and they too often mistake the order of causation, and they assume correlation = causation.

179. @Polly, Beestings and Joreth

     You came over from Shakesville, didn’t you?

     NOTHING in the PTSD’s letter or Dan’s response suggests that the husband does or should “own” her sexuality or her time. God what horseshit.

     You all have serious reading comprehension issues – break out of your little bullshit echo chamber and look around at some other real human beings.

     Dan’s advice is exactly right. To paraphrase:

     1. Sexual assault is awful.
     2. Being the victim of a sexual assault does not entitle you to treat anyone who is not your attacker badly.

180. As a, uh, “victim-hater,” I have to say that the folks referred by Shakesville are missing the point. The husband isn’t upset because he can’t fuck his wife, he’s upset because she finds him repulsive and he thinks that she’s given up on their marriage. Since she says things like “I admit I have a hard time believing that my husband and I will ever be able to go back to the way things were before,” I’d say that’s a valid concern. They’re married, which doesn’t mean that he owns her, but it does mean she made a commitment to him and now she’s letting that slip away.

181. “He’s so busy feeling bad that he’s not getting serviced”

     Oh, come ON.

     He’s busy feeling bad that his touch makes his wife’s SKIN CRAWL. (her words.)

     “Getting serviced?” Honestly? Could you possibly mischaracterize the situation in a more biased way?

     He’s also feeling bad because his wife seems to think the status quo is nothing particularly alarming, and it will just have to work itself out in time, with no outside help. In other words, not only does he make her skin crawl, that fact doesn’t seem to really bother her all that much.

     If your skin crawls at the touch of your spouse, that should be setting off all manner of alarm bells in your head, and you should be taking all possible steps to address the situation. (I.e., fucking get help NOW.) She doesn’t seem to mind all that much, as long as she gets to keep fucking her boyfriend. She also doesn’t care about her husband’s feelings — or rather, she cares, just not enough to bother changing anything.

     Clearly, she’s married to the wrong guy.

182. lets see.

     within 5 months PTSD writer went thru the following. picture yourself there instead.

     you get sexually assaulted by someone you once trusted.

     as a result of that you now find your husband impossible to sleep with.

     its unclear as to whether you report this crime, its likely you do not. since crippling fear of further consequences makes you uninterested in pursuing legal action.

     you decide to anonymously seek counsel with an unqualified voice that you trust on the matter.

     he calls you a “shit.” reprimands your behavior. you are further silenced by your trauma.

     commenters support this behavior. anyone who opposes his behavior and sympathizes with the Survivor of a terrible and far to common act of superb violence is mocked.

     so… how do you feel? you get some good advice? everything fixed now?

183. I’m sorry but @Joreth is clearly very self involved. It’s all about me, Me, ME!! Nobody owns me, blah, blah, blah.
     Nothing is black and white! Yes, you should care about the people around you that you are hurting. Really, just shut the fuck up, you’re annoying. I know I shouldn’t be so mean, but it’s not like you’re being polite. NOBODY, except troll unregistered assholes have been blaming the victim. Most people are saying she should get help and show some compassion to her poor husband, be it taking a break from her boyfriend or just letting him go if she can no longer be with him. My mother was sexually abused as a child and tended to gravitate to people who have been through similar experiences, so I grew up around people who had a hard time coping with others. Yes, they usually fucked up relationships like PTSD is doing, but the good ones understood that these are the people that love them, and they should be treated with respect. PTSD is not treating her HUSBAND, whom she made a life time COMMITMENT (you understand the word, right?) too, with respect as someone who has been very understanding about her needs. She shows her respect by getting emotional support from HIM, not the boyfriend. She shows respect by having a break from the boyfriend and attempting to deal with her issues. She herself realizes that she is treating her husband like shit, and she asked Dan for help. If she knows Dan, she should have expected a few harsh words. He has been very consistent about this issue, be it male or female. What would you say if it was the husband that had been assualted and ignored his wife for his girlfiend? I bet it wouldn’t be the same. Get a grip, seriously.

184. @183

     beestings, I thought this day would never come. You have inspired me to break my fundamental rule regarding internet communications: the personal attack.

     God fucking DAMN are you an idiot!!

     Also, I’m with Roadflare; if the traumatized person were male, you guys would be singing a different tune. Oh, and just to clarify my “qualifications” on these points, I AM a rape survivor! Yes, and ten years later, after plenty of therapy, I am happily married and hardly ever think about it! It was a major event in my life, but I certainly don’t define myself as a victim, and I never used it as an excuse to mistreat the people in my life.

185. 179: “Maybe you can’t love someone unless you’re having sex with them, but not everyone is that shallow.”

     There are plenty of people in my life whom I love but I don’t have sex with. On the other hand, I don’t call any of them “spouse.”

     One guy makes her feel “loved and whole and wonderful.” The other guy makes her skin crawl. Given those two descriptions, which one would you expect was the spouse?

     The husband is not wrong for thinking that she loves the boyfriend more than him. It takes enormous, willing suspension of disbelief and active ignoring of cognitive dissonance to believe the Letter Writer in the face of her behavior.

186. @Polly, Beestings and Joreth

     Go back to

     Shakespearssister

     Grown ups hang out here.

     Oh and Sylvia Plath was a shitty writer.

187. Dan, why are you failing so hard right now? It’s been 5 months, and if her husband’s attitude is anything like your own, it’s no f*ing wonder she doesn’t want to f* him. Pressing charges in rape cases has a long history of not going well, if at all, with the added benefit of revictimizing the victim. Like your column is currently doing. WAY TO GO!

188. “The husband isn’t upset because he can’t fuck his wife”

     @Chicago_girl actually that is exactly what we’re being told.

     We are presented with a scenario in which the writer clearly cares about her husbands feelings, and has demonstrated this repeatedly – even going so far as to ‘go along’ with sexual acts she clearly didn’t enjoy:

     “Those times when I go along with it anyway leave me feeling enraged and disgusted.”

     Clearly the husband’s sexual desires are mattering to him more than his wife’s happiness right here. Yet he continues to pressure her for sex as ‘proof’ that she loves him.
     Whatever the initial cause of the problem, and whether there is a boyfriend or not, that is on the road to an abusive relationship, and one that needs addressing if they’re going to continue being husband and wife.

     I’ve been there, I’ve brought partners through it, I’ve got the T-shirt. As the partner who is feeling insecure (and certainly the husband is acting that part) it can be difficult to step back and take the pressure off, but it’s amazing how quickly things come back together when you genuinely do that.

     Funny, I thought marriage was a commitment to live love and to cherish. There have been plenty of non-sexual marriages through the ages, and plenty where attraction waned but couples still treated each other with respect and dignity, whether they had (consensual) affairs on the side or not. Have we suddenly travelled back in time to the age when a marriage can be annulled if it isn’t consummated?

189. @183 – Thank you for amply demonstrating your selective reading and intense bias. Really? “crippling fear of further consequences makes you uninterested in pursuing legal action”). Where exactly was that part in the letter? Oh, that’s right, nowhere — it’s just your little “fill in”.

     Your “victim-blaming” and “victim-hating” accusations ring incredibly hollow here folks. Nobody on this thread, and certainly not Dan, blames PTSD for being assaulted. We all think it’s horrible and tragic. She needs help. The issue, though, is that AS BETWEEN HER AND HER HUSBAND, SHE’S NOT HIS VICTIM.

190. “Clearly the husband’s sexual desires are mattering to him more than his wife’s happiness right here. Yet he continues to pressure her for sex as ‘proof’ that she loves him.“

     No, what the letter says is that he is pressuring her to stop having sex with the boyfriend — not that he is pressuring her to keep having sex with him — until the problem is resolved.

     Nowhere does it say that he is pressuring her for sex. He approached her, she flipped out, she has occasionally tried to “go along with it”, and ended up very unhappy. She never says that was because he was forcing the issue. Maybe it was because she knew that finding her husband repulsive is seriously broken? And maybe she was trying to find out what would happen?

191. @145

     femwanderluster, you’ve very very quick to defend her and not him, just because she’s the victim. Dan is absolutely right – when you’re in a marriage, you’ve made a commitment, and part of that commitment is one of love and honesty.

     But hey, she was assaulted. He should be totally and completely forgiving of her behavior, right?

192. Dan was spot on with his answer. She needs to put the secondary on the back burner until she has recieved professional help that she needs, and has got her marriage back on track.Or , she needs to get out of the marriage.
     To those who suggest that she should not tell law enforcement. This guy is a criminal, and once criminal learn the they can get away with something, they will repeat it.over and over. By not telling the police, their will be more victims.

193. @178

     BlackRose wrote:
     “Of course in a good relationship the partners should be able to talk about other partners who make them uncomfortable… Essentially, having someone be able to make ultimatums that I am expected to respond to, which is what veto power is, feels like a very abusive and controlling dynamic to me. I am interested and curious how this works for you and when this veto power gets used. “

     Oh, it’s not simply “you do what I tell you right now!”… a straight ultimatum. We can and do talk about it and see how the discomfort might be resolved. However, at the end of the conversation, if she needs the security of monogamy, she gets it. If I need it, I get it. End of story. The presumption is that monogamy can be re-established at any time, by either partner, if they are in a vulnerable state and need that security then.

     I consider it my obligation to put my partner’s feelings and sense of security ahead of my sexual desires (and ahead of the feelings of any secondaries I may be involved with). Though jealousy is a problem to be dealt with, people are human, and have human feelings, and sometimes they must be allowed to have them even if they aren’t what we’d like them to be. Saying “jealousy is a problem” is too often translated into “… and it’s your problem to deal with”, and turned into a noble-sounding excuse for being a callous piece of shit. If my mate is miserable over my screwing someone else I will not continue doing it, whether her feelings make sense to me or not.

     And I’m sorry, but lots of happy non-monogamous relationships do work this way, over long periods of time. You have your model of non-monogamy. I’m glad you’re happy with it. I’ll stick to my version.

194. I love how people act how the husband has the right to be so hurt when the wife cringes at his touch and not her boyfriend’s, when a) that is not even remotely her choice, b) triggers are not rational, c) it doesn’t mean she doesn’t love him, d) she makes an earnest attempts to have sex anyway.

     I mean, honestly. Yes, anyone would feel hurt and upset in that situation. But any decent person would pull their head out of their ass and realize that it’s not all about them, and their feelings shouldn’t take centerstage. Because, like 192 sarcastically mentioned, she was sexually assaulted by someone she once cared cared about. Y’know, something that’s kinda a big deal. You’d think that any decent guy would consider THAT before his bruised ego.

     Because I’ve been in a similar situation, where I love someone who’s hurting me because of trauma. Yes, it sucks really hard. Yes, it hurts. But if you want to support that person, you forgive their behavior and help them, not stamp your feet about how they’re hurting YOU. You can have an honest talk about hurt feelings and apologies and making up later, after they’ve gotten serious help and in a better headspace.

     Or hell, maybe you can’t deal with the pain, you step away out of the relationship. It may be cruel and shitty thing to do, but not everyone can deal with the hurt either. What you DON’T do is stay around but still demand your feelings be considered to the detriment of your loved one. The wife may need to get herself to therapy ASAP, but the husband ALSO needs to decide what’s more important instead of making the situation worse.

     And one more thing; you can still blame a victim without blaming her for the assault itself. You can still blame a victim for not reacting the way they ‘should’ or without perfect grace. The fallout of a rape goes much farther than the rape itself, meaning that there’s still plently of chances for further victim blaming.

     @ 193: Even if we don’t consider how rape victims are treated by the courts, you assume that there is any evidence to prosecute besides her word against his. Not all rapes are brutal and violent that leave obvious evidence, and even if it was, by now that physical evidence is gone. Rape can be as simple as one man intimidating a women into sex, something that can never be proven in court.

195. Very sorry for the overly long post that follows.

     Things it might help to know:

     Was the open marriage working beautifully for both of them or only for her? And is it open in both directions? (She does not specify. And does it change any of the posted views if he is or isn’t permitted outside partners? I noticed her not saying anything about that either way.)

     His trying to initialize sexual contact: she doesn’t say he’s pressuring her, but I suppose she might be ignoring that because she feels guilty about not being able to respond. Then again, perhaps she keeps trying just going along with it hoping that this time it will take and it doesn’t. If he’s asking if she thinks she’s ready and she’s taking the line unsuccessfully, “I’ll try, let’s see,” there could be no villain in the case either way, however much more fun it might be to blame one partner or the other.

     It does seem that this could be turned into an unwinnable situation for a victim’s partner if (s)he were always the initiator. Initiate too soon and (s)he’s selfish and only concerned with her/his own climax. Don’t initiate and (s)he selfishly thinks the victim is damaged property. Wait for the victim to initiate and (s)he’s pressuring the victim by forcing her/him into an unfamiliar or uncomfortable role. I don’t think PTSD is doing that here, but just bring it up to mention that there may well seem to be no right answer, and that even trying to discuss the situation may seem like pressure.

     Enraged and disgusted with whom/what? – him? herself? the perpetrator? sex in general?

     “Considering therapy”: is she blase about his need to restore happy sexual relations to the marriage, unsure she’s at a point of being ready for therapy, doubtful that there is a helpful or useful therapist available in the area given the open twist, having to weigh the potential benefit against cost or some other consideration? There seems to be some evidence to support the blase interpretation in her complete non-mention whether he has any outside partner(s) or permission to seek any, but that could be editing on one end or the other.

     As for the boyfriend, presumably the title suggests sufficient status that he merits consideration whether or not such consideration extends to a say in what happens. But how is the boyfriend responding to the situation as a whole? Is he just selflessly happy to provide whatever magic he has for her for however long she might need it? Is he concerned over the negative change in her relationship with her husband? Does this please him? Is he gloating? Is he trying to bring about any change in the relationship that he might see as more desirable? There are so many possibilities, and there’s also the question of why PTSD doesn’t mention his reaction.

     “Incredibly jealous”: Is it really incredibly, or was that just perhaps not the best choice of word? A fairly large dose of jealousy seems quite credible if one’s only partner suddenly finds one repulsive but feels loved and whole and wonderful in the company of somebody else. Did the husband have any issues with the boyfriend prior to the assault, especially any of the sort that according to terms of the relationship either husband or wife should have been handling differently?

     Depressed and angry – feelings. Accusations – a definite concern, but perhaps understandable.

     Then we have what he *wants* – for her to stop sleeping with the boyfriend until the marriage is back to normal. Has this gone from a want to a request? or even to a demand, the way some posters assume it has?

     The husband-blamers’ best point may be that, “As the partner who is feeling insecure (and certainly the husband is acting that part) it can be difficult to step back and take the pressure off, but it’s amazing how quickly things come back together when you genuinely do that.” Would it really help him genuinely to take the pressure off if she weren’t clearly coming home in a state of feeling loved and whole and wonderful because of someone he likely perceives to be a threat to the marriage? Is it possible that her feeling loved and whole and wonderful with the boyfriend has gone from being helpful to numbing her? Whose need is greater?

     I wish posters were less absolute on both sides. To use the free pass idea, it strikes me that PTSD does get a free pass, but a temporary one. It would be heartless to expect her to recover right away. Then again, there surely must come a time when her recovery not yet being complete no longer justifies her not giving his situation due consideration. It seems more a scale than a clear case of his being abusive or her being a pill.

     Because I see two people suffering and don’t want there to be any villain in the case, I’ll go with the interpretation that the husband was waiting reasonably patiently and so was the wife. Then, perhaps to her own surprise, on a visit to her boyfriend she had astonishingly affirmative sex. She told her husband, and since then he has periodically initiated, and she’s occasionally made herself try, only they’ve had no luck.

     In an ideal world, it would be lovely if the husband could cheerfully and supportively go without for an indefinite period, gladness for her being able to feel loved and whole and wonderful obliterating any sadness from not being the source. Without the assault in my own case, I’ve been in the position of being celibate and supportive while my boyfriend was enjoying the full benefits of another partner. But I only had to go through it for a finite period of time, and we weren’t trying during that period. It’s not for everyone; I just think it happened to suit my rather odd disposition.

     I can certainly see how one spouse or the other here *could* be clearly to blame, but it’s too late for any more.

196. Ok everyone, before we continue this asshattery, can we please remember a few things?
     A) Triggers aren’t voluntary. Triggers aren’t voluntary. The reaction of panic and revulsion isn’t something one chooses. The stuff after that yes, but the feeling can’t be controlled at that moment. Sometimes therapy helps, but I have friends who after years of therapy still have concluded that, while they’re better, all they can do is to avoid certain situations. I am not saying that sex with her husband is eternally doomed, but keep in mind that her reaction isn’t something she chooses or controls.
     B) “victim blaming” isn’t JUST saying “it’s your fault that x happened.” It’s also to say “and now that it did, you should be back to normal with no adverse reaction, pls don’t have emotions.”

     Should PTSD see a therapist? Of course, asap. Should she scale back on the bf? Maybe, yeah, if it really does make the husband feel better. Should the husband try to see beyond his wounded ego and react like the person who wasn’t assaulted that he is? Yes; insist that they stop trying to have sex (WHY is he trying to sex up an assault survivor who is obviously not enjoying it anyway?) and ask how he can support her instead. Should PSTD try to find other ways to show her husband that she loves him (which I believe she does, or she wouldn’t try to have sex with him despite not wanting to, or be upset that he is wounded and angry) Yes. Should Dan be a little bit smarter about who he’s calling abusive and shitty, especially less than six months after she’s been through a trauma-inducing sexual assault? Hell yes. Way to go from awesome to arse in less than a day, Savage.

197. Funny you should mention “voluntary.” I was just thinking along those same lines. The kernel of this situation consists of two kinds of things: the stuff that isn’t in their control, and the stuff that is. Most of the conflict arises out of the stuff that is in their control, but they are handling badly.

     First, the stuff that is out of their control.

     She can’t control her panic reaction. She can’t be blamed for that. End of story. Likewise she shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for boyfriend making her happy. That isn’t a bad thing at all, in and of itself, and even it it were somehow bad, it’s not like she could will herself to come home from his house all depressed.

     By the same token, her husband isn’t in control of feeling depressed when she finds him revolting, or jealous when the boyfriend makes her feel loved and whole and wonderful, particularly in the face of her finding him revolting. Those are emotions. They don’t respond very well to little rational talks about how and why the situation is pulling this reaction out of her. He can choose how to respond to the emotions, how to express them or keep them to himself…but you can’t ask him to just stop feeling them. And frankly, that particular pair of stimuli — boyfriend makes me feel whole, but you, hubby, make my skin crawl — is going to be incredibly hard to take under any circumstance.

     Then, there are the things that are in her control (and yes, these are the things she fucked up):

     First, she can go get therapy. Actively going for therapy would accomplish two things: a) it would (hopefully) get her on the road to recovery a lot faster than just letting things ride and hoping this storm blows itself out (hint; fat chance). And b) it would be be one way of demonstrating to her horribly rejected husband that she is genuinely interested in turning things around as quickly as possible. Her lackadaisical interest in therapy probably appears to the husband like she isn’t all that interested in getting better any time soon.

     Second, she is in control over whether to keep seeing the boyfriend in the face of her husband’s obvious misery over that. She knows that it makes him horribly unhappy, and she chooses to keep doing it. Cutting back on time with the boyfriend would be a gesture to her husband that she takes his feelings seriously. But she hasn’t done that. That right there is the one thing that would label her an uncaring shit. If your partner is miserable as a result of your choices and you choose to keep doing the exact same thing, you don’t give a shit about your partner’s feelings. Okay, maybe you give a little tiny squirt of shit. But not enough of a shit to be useful or meaningful.

     So, she has completely fucked up on the items that are in her control. Between those two — not being serious about getting therapy, and continuing to fuck the boyfriend — the overall effect is of someone who isn’t interested in “getting better” because she is already getting what she needs out of the situation. Hubby is expected to just shut up and deal, because hey, being told by your wife that you make her skin crawl, and that she has plenty of need for dick, just not yours, isn’t emotionally violating in the least.

     That’s not to say that the husband didn’t also fuck up the things that are in his control. What are the things in his control?

     First, he can bite his tongue when the urge to sling accusations arises. Telling her she doesn’t really love him, or she loves the boyfriend more, isn’t going to accomplish anything. It may eventually persuade her that he’s right. (Notice I’m not saying he shouldn’t feel jealous. He just needs to resist the urge to fight with her.)

     Second, he can tell her that sex with him is completely off the table until she feels she is ready to try. That takes the pressure completely off of her, and forestalls repeat performances of the panic attacks, which only make both of them unhappy.

     Third, if he doesn’t already have a girlfriend, he really should go get one. First, it means he will have someone in his life who thinks fucking him is a great idea, to counteract the appalling message coming from his wife. (Yes, I know, she can’t help it. It still hurts.) Second, it means he is getting laid regularly, so the pressure on the wife will genuinely be off. (If he says sex is off the table, but he remains celibate while he waits for her to recover, the pressure will still be there, no matter how unspoken or how much he disclaims it, and that will be counterproductive.)

198. I was once (partially) in PTSD’s position. Not all of the situations were the same. My trauma had nothing to do with sex. But I was traumatized, and I was dealing with it badly. I was not getting help, and I was letting my reactions hurt someone I loved. Namely, my husband.

     Finally, someone told me that I was being selfish and cruel to my husband. They told me that I was being a lousy human being. That I was harming him.

     Hearing that gave me the strength to finally go to therapy. Guilt got through where nothing else would.

     I think that’s what Dan was trying to do with PTSD. I think it might actually penetrate her pain long enough to make her go to therapy. I hope it works for her.

199. Dan, I hope you know that writing an advice column is not a Get Out of Being a Human Being Free card.

     Just because you have said advice column doesn’t mean you operate in an alternate moral universe where you’re not obligated to take other people’s feelings into consideration—particularly the feelings of people who write to you with honest concerns. Your behavior toward PTSD is both cruel and selfish.

     If you truly wanted to help the writer navigate her situation, you would’ve put the knee-jerk attitude on hold and gotten your ass to consult a professional on trauma without having to be told before spewing your response.

     To sum up, Dan: You’re being a total shit. Get your ass onto a counselor’s couch to find out why you feel the need to emotionally assault survivors of sexual trauma.

200. Hey Dan,
     I love your column, and have loved it for a long time, but the way you responded to PTSD really upset me. There are ways to give a trauma victim advice without flippantly disregarding his or her experience. She is clearly not just “being a total shit” by not wanting to stop the only sexual contact that she has enjoyed since her assault. While her husband deserves to have his feelings respected, there are ways to suggest the same change without making fun of a rape victim.

201. Shakesville commenters… stupid

     Idea that calling someone a “total shit” when they’ve been sexually assaulted makes you a victim-blamer… stupid

     Dan Savage… continues to be awesome.

202. I’m in a poly marriage, and I think that breaking off a good relationship because the “primary” is struggling is a terrible idea that will just hurt the “primary” relationship more. When my husband first started dating his girlfriend, I got terribly jealous. We had horrible fights and he decided that the best thing was to break up with the girlfriend. It was a terrible idea. They were still friends and hung out and talked and texted each other, though they didn’t have sex and I guess they spent less time with each other. Though I was still terribly jealous, but because they were “just friends” I had less room to complain. He was resentful for having to break up with her, and he thought that I would act grateful, but I hurt even worse. Finally they got back together and we could negotiate things honestly instead of having them pretend to be just friends.

     More recently, I started dating a guy, and I was every bit the shit that you guys think PTSD is, though I was actually a shit because I hadn’t been raped. I was just on a new relationship energy high and I didn’t care about anything else. I’d have a big fight with my husband, and I’d respond by leaving for the weekend with my boyfriend. I didn’t want sex with my husband anymore, because my boyfriend was hotter. Fortunately for all of us, my husband didn’t realize that because he was working 80 hours a week and has a clingy girlfriend (which actually were the reasons I looked for a boyfriend in the first place). If my husband had demanded I dump the boyfriend, I would have asked for a divorce because I didn’t even care.

     Eventually the NRE faded, and my husband and I stopped fighting. We remembered why we loved each other again, and we’re glad we didn’t divorce over the rough spots. Making ultimatums about other partners wouldn’t have helped out all, we just needed time to work through it. It’s harder and more complicated for PTSD because she’s not just being a shit, she’s trying to figure out how to deal with her own trauma, and I don’t even know where to begin to help her with that. I hope her husband can be supportive of her with that, though I don’t know how he managed to have sex with her that left her feeling “enraged and disgusted.” Wouldn’t he have noticed and stopped? I especially don’t get why she has to say “Those times” as in, he’s had sex with her more than once leaving her enraged and disgusted. How do you do that with someone you love, or not notice that you’re doing that? Projecting from my own experience, I want them to work out, but I’m not sure if that’s the best. If they do stay together, what needs to be fixed is not the boyfriend.

203. I have loved Savage Love for a long time. I’ve also made excuses for the biphobic, fatphobic, sexist, and racist content that at various times has cropped up here. Dan- you’re a great activist on certain issues, but where you aren’t a great activist you not only AREN’T an activist, you actually cause great harm to the people you take digs at. Honesty is just honesty. It doesn’t require brutality and your answer to PTSD is so mind-blowingly ableist and sexist and heteronormative that I think I can’t excuse you anymore. Which makes me sad, which is ridiculous, because as an activist I have a responsibility to say this to you and to leave and not come back. Thanks for all your amazing work on so many other issues- kink, certain elements of LGBT rights, the It Gets Better campaign- but Jesus Fucking Christ, Dan, please educate yourself better.

204. @ 204 Wow, could you throw more unsubstantiated buzz words into your comment? Biphobic, fatphobic, sexist, ableist, heteronormative, and racist?
     Fer real? I’ve been reading Dan for 10 years and I’ve never seen him display those traits. Btw, you forgot transphobic, necrophobic, and he hates dogs.

205. Btw, if you REALLY thought that Dan was biphobic, fatphobic, sexist, ableist, heteronormative, and racist you probably should have stopped reading a long time ago.

206. I agree that Savage’s advice was surprisingly bad and lacking in empathy. I read the letter several times through looking for a sign that she didn’t care about her husband or was looking for an excuse to leave the marriage, and came up empty. It sounds like she experienced something that was both traumatizing and confusing, and her body is now reacting in ways she doesn’t understand. She can’t be blamed for her physiological responses during sex, just as her husband can’t be blamed for his feelings of jealousy, grief and anger over the rejection. It’s just pure, animal reaction to something neither of them brought on themselves.

     The whole aftermath sounds incredibly sad, fucked-up and potentially in the process of destroying three lives. Anyone who can read this without feeling empathy for ALL THREE people involved is, in my opinion, playing the GOOBAHB card themselves. This isn’t your typical Savage Love “I want to be pissed on, where can I find someone?” shit; there’s way more going on here than an advice columnist can fix. Dan should’ve been responsible and privately told her “I’m sorry you’re in this situation, but I think you’d benefit from the help of a medical professional. Here are some people you can contact.” NOT call her a “total shit” and throw her to the wolves on the comment boards.

     All these armchair analysts need to STFU, and Dan needs to apologize for his uncharacteristically awful advice. And PTSD needs to get herself into therapy, take her husband along and hopefully begin to untangle this sad, shitty situation IN PRIVATE.

207. I really love the line of people in this thread advocating that HE is the problem and even a pseudo-pre-rapist because he wants to fuck his wife after 5 months.

     Shall we repeat that: He wants to make love with his wife after 5 months and her response is to go fuck her boyfriend.

     Sounds to me like this guy has the patience of Job but this relationship has no chance. Making the skin crawl is a bit like when the branch turns brown and crispy- time to cut it off and start with a fresh bud.

     That CBT (cognitive-behavioral therapy) can’t revive the dead.

     Oh and all you armchair psychologist-feminists, you are right, of course that her problem is probably all about the power dynamic of marriage. And you are right marriage was an institution to control female sexuality- but what you miss is it also controls male sexuality and prevents us all from acting like Dan’s friends in the bathroom stall with any woman we meet.

     And yes, 100 percent, absolutely, a good faith attempt to sexually satisfy your partner is part of the marriage contract and PTSD is in material breach.

208. I was wondering how long it would take before someone blamed the husband and or Dan. It took six comments. I’m surprised it took that long. Didn’t read all of the comments but I would be willing to bet that more then half fall into that same vein.

209. Joreth @ 175:

     I lose that sympathy when their desire to be loved and/or fucked overrides their own concern for that loved one and when they choose to demand self-serving actions instead of putting their own selfish desires on hold in order to support someone they supposedly love while she works through the problem.

     How ironic.
     Because your words apply quite well to PTSD.
     Her desire to be fucked and feel loved (“and whole and wonderful”) over-rides her concern for her husband, and she has chosen to maintain that situation instead of seeking therapy or otherwise putting her selfish desires for her own comfort on hold (which would provide her husband some feeling of hope) in order to support someone she supposedly loves while she works through the problem.
     She could have chosen healing over selfish comfort, and she’s the only person involved that can. Instead she ignores the husband, doesn’t get therapy, and uses the boyfriend. And that means she’s acting like a total shit.

     Avast @ 198: Nice post.

210. Is it possible that PTSD blames her husband for her vulnerability to sexual assault by allowing the open relationship? Is it possible that, in her mind, the sexual assault would have never happened if he had insisted on monogamy?

211. I feel sorry for the husband and the boyfriend. She’s using both of them and it’s just rude.

212. wow you people are seriously sick ! you need serious help the lot of you ! as for the gay sub you can lick my boots all shiny then i’ll stomp the flying shit out of you . if fact i’ll kick you until you see satan if thats what you want. it is isn’t it you little sicko ! RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!

213. The level of reading comprehension on display among some of the commenters here– specifically, the ones excoriating Dan for his advice to PTSD– makes me despair for the state of education in this country. Nowhere did Dan say that she should fuck her husband. Only that she should stop fucking her boyfriend. Those two things are VASTLY different; fucking her husband is clearly triggering her (and thus should be avoided) but fucking her boyfriend is doing serious damage to her husband and should also be avoided. Yes, if Dan was saying “suck it up and have sex with your husband” he would be guilty of giving bad advice, but he’s not.

     And @204, the pseudo-intellectual condescension that drips from your buzzword-filled post is so thick I can almost see the library of unread third-wave feminist lit in your dorm room. At least crack the spine on To Be Real to impress visitors.

214. @204: Absolutely nothing in the world is so “biphobic, fatphobic, sexist, and racist”, “ableist and sexist and heteronormative” as giving members of any of said concerned groups a free pass.

     That is the issue with any worthwhile ethical question. Everyone has standing – PTSD, her husband, her boyfriend, her evil ex, family, friends, and society as a whole – but not everyone has equal standing. It isn’t a fantasyland where everyone’s interests are aligned, or where you can just wipe out someone (like the husband) by telling them to suck it up.

     As a self-described poly activist, you should be the first person to call foul on PTSD, and twice as hard on her. Polyamory requires honesty, open communication, and transparency. As far as I can see, PTSD is 0 for 3.

215. To 212, I feel sorry for the wife and the husband(espeically the wife, as she is the real victim here). I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR THE BF!! What ever pain he has, is the risk that he took when he placed himself in someone elses marriage. If he had any class, and if he really loved her, he would encourage her to seek professional help, then he would step aside and let her work on her self, and her primary relation ship, aka, her marriage. But my guess is that he won’t,because its all about him, and only him.

216. Interesting to see how this issue causes emotional reactions on both sides; those who idolize the sexual assault victim’s status, and those who demonize it.

     Interesting.

     I hope PTSD finds her balance, and I hope her husband also does. For the time being, they are not helping each other, despite attempts from both sides. They should seek therapy as soon as possible, and see where it takes them.

     I don’t see much future for this marriage. Or for the boyfriend either, for that matter. I don’t know how he is taking it, but this kind of psychological situation is certainly not going to be pleasant to deal with.

217. I know it’s a week late, but I just saw that someone was making ‘Fuck your feelings’ shirts.. check them out..

     sqglzstore.bigcartel.com

218. I know it’s a week late, but I just saw that someone was making ‘Fuck your feelings’ shirts.. check them out..

     sqglzstore.bigcartel.com

219. For sexual assault survivors, it is very common to be able to engage in casual sex more easily and joyously than sex in committed relationships. What Dan wrote to PTSD is misinformed and cruel.

     As a person that works with dv and sexual assault survivors, I understand why someone would not even consider reporting the crime. People who casually suggest you “press charges” usually have no concept of the frustrating process they refer to, one which hardly even recognizes assault between partners. The law is in every way inadequate in responding to partner abuse. Judges and cops don’t want to hear it. Often reporting only creates more triggers and opens one up to more inconsideration and invalidation, which can wrongly promote a victim’s self-blame (Dan’s words here serve as example).

     It has only been five months. I applaud PTSD for even recognizing and being able to articulate what happened to her. I recommend therapy on her terms, for herself and for her marriage – but not only so she can hurry up and start having sex with her husband when it is repulsive to her.

     Dan, you have lost a reader. The accompanying graphic takes your answer to a whole different level of offensive.

     PTSD, I work professionally with survivors and have experienced a very similar situation. It took me 2 years to even tell someone what happened to me. You are clearly strong and self-aware. I wish you the best. Ignore every one of Dan’s words.

220. “For sexual assault survivors, it is very common to be able to engage in casual sex more easily and joyously than sex in committed relationships.”

     So what? It is also very common to feel depressed, angry and jealous when you make your wife’s skin crawl, but there’s this other guy that she can’t get enough sex with. Frankly, that reaction is probably as far beyond his capacity to rationalize away as her current reaction to his touch is beyond her.

     The question is whether to treat that factoid about a common reaction by assault survivors as the ethical choice on how to treat the pathologically rejected spouse — and more to the point, whether choosing to continue to “easily and joyously” fuck the boyfriend while freezing out the husband will kill the marriage. All indications thus far are, yes, it will. What she is doing with the boyfriend hurts her husband, and she is doing it by choice. She cloaks that choice in words like “can’t” go without it but the reality is that “won’t” go without it is more accurate. If she wants to lose him, all she has to do is keep doing what she’s doing now, and let things continue to deteriorate.

     Or she can put her rampant horn-dog tendencies on hold for the time being, just like her husband is being asked to do, and the two of them can focus on their marriage and on each other in non-sexual ways while she heals. (For that matter, while HE heals from the ways in which she has been hurting him. )

     Unless you think he should just sit there and take it while she hurts him again and again. By the time she’s finished recovering, he’s the one who will be needing therapy, and who will recoil at her touch.

     “I recommend therapy on her terms, for herself and for her marriage – but not only so she can hurry up and start having sex with her husband when it is repulsive to her.”

     When it is repulsive to her? Wrong formulation. If she gets therapy, and it works, having sex with her husband won’t be repulsive to her any more. One would think that the sooner that could be achieved, the better for both of them. And here you are characterizing it as “hurry up,” as if recovering quickly is a bad thing? One would almost think you feel that having her continue to feel revolted by her husband is what she wants.

     What exactly does “therapy on her terms” mean? Other than telling the husband to sit down and shut up, because since he wasn’t assaulted, his emotions are of no consequence?

221. “reconciling yourself to the fact that most submissive straight men in D/s relationships met vanilla women who weren’t perverts themselves but were pervertible.”

     I agree with this part big time. I’m a woman in my twenties, and while I am more likely to want to be dominated (Though that “socialized to want it” part kind of pisses me off, *ahem*), I do have a streak of wanting to be the dominant partner, and finding a lot of pleasure in it, even if I do feel kind of awkward at times. Uncharted territory and all that. I can see how, with the right partner, I could REALLY get into it and have a great time. I suggest you set your sights on a girl that could go for it, and help her become the domme you both want her to be. Help someone flower into the pervert they were born to be! 😉

222. “(she considers the rapist a loss? Seriously?)”

     Well, she obviously trusted the guy that raped her, and enjoyed his company enough to fuck him before all that, so he was probably a friend with benefits, right? Your first thought as an outsider would be “WTF?! Good riddance!” but it makes sense in a twisted way that she’d feel a kind of loss despite the horrible thing he did to her. Having someone you thought was your friend betray you so wholey and brutally is very painful. It’s not like the rapist was a stranger. The vast majority of rapists AREN’T strangers to their victims. It’s part of what makes things so guilt-laden, complicated and hard to deal with.

     Going through the comments after I wrote but before I posted this, I see NOP_Spinster @84 wrote it a lot more eloquently than I could.

     “I’ll repeat that, because it’s important: despite popular opinion, YOU DO NOT OWE YOUR SPOUSE SEX.”

     If she loves him like she says she does, she owes it to him to try to get herself healthy, and finding an understanding therapist would be a good start. You owe it to the person you love to take care of yourself. If you can’t do that, maybe you shouldn’t be in a relationship. Fucking the boyfriend is something of a crutch that might be holding her together for the short term–SOMETHING that can help keep her from losing her shit for a while–but it won’t help long-term.

223. @220, Sarah B., who said: ” People who casually suggest you “press charges” usually have no concept of the frustrating process they refer to, one which hardly even recognizes assault between partners. The law is in every way inadequate in responding to partner abuse.”

     I think you’re misreading the letter here, Sarah. The “partner” that PTSD mentions is apparently her business partner, since the assault happened in the workplace. So it’s not the kind of thing that the police and others refuse to believe in — but actually the stuff of which sucessful sexual harassment charges are usually made of: forcing someone to have sex in the workplace.

     I notice that you, like so many others, project a certain scenario onto the letter which we know nothing about. You belittle the husband’s suffering, who is also a victim (notice how PTSD herself says his suffering is unberarable to watch) and I wonder if you would do that if he, not PTSD, had been the assault victim.

     You may of course be right: your added contextual presuppositions may be right. And of course you are right that such deviations as PTSD experiences — casual sex OK (but notice: it’s sex with her habitual boyfriend; that is not really casual… there may be something extra going on here), marital sex not OK — are not infrequent.

     Still, you belittle the husband’s suffering. If you have dealt with ‘support people’ — those who have, say, a dear one who is in cancer treatment, or who went through a traumatic experience — you know how taxing this can be, how much effort it takes, how often support people come to the verge of breaking and start themselves presenting symptoms of victimization. Add to this the fact that it is so easy to read in PTSD’s behavior, given our culture, what her husband is reading: that her love for him is disappearing, being replaced by her love for her boyfriend. And think how difficult for people in general it is to deal with the fact that we are being less loved, that we are being deemed less worthy of love.

     Frankly, I don’t see one really virtuous side here. Dan’s advice is a bit exaggerated in tone; but my impression is that these two won’t be able to live together anymore. They might be if either of them were stronger than they are (preferably both); but they apparently aren’t, so they won’t.

     Peace.

224. To whoever said: “”I’ll repeat that, because it’s important: despite popular opinion, YOU DO NOT OWE YOUR SPOUSE SEX.”

     I agree; but, in your opinion, what do you owe your spouse? What can you sincerely and honestly get angry at, if you don’t get from your spouse?

     Or if you want, how is a spouse different from a friend?

225. @220: “For sexual assault survivors, it is very common to be able to engage in casual sex more easily and joyously than sex in committed relationships.”

     I in no way wish to discount your expertise and experience, but you’re missing the point. PTSD has no problem with extramarital sex. She enjoys it and wants to keep on doing it. The conflict with her spouse is the problem.

     PTSD certainly has the right to go on sleeping with her boyfriend. She has the right to ask her husband to tolerate it. She even has the right to ignore her husband’s wishes that she not. She has sexual autonomy and nobody wants to take that away from her.

     She is not entitled to avoid the consequences of her actions. She is not entitled to coerce her husband- by playing on his entirely understandable compassion for her – into staying in a situation that’s clearly intolerable for him. She is not entitled to her marriage or any other relationship.

     The moral grounds as to whether it’s reasonable or not for PTSD to keep on sleeping with the boyfriend are irrelevant: if it is, but he can’t live with it, she should DTMFA. If it isn’t, and she won’t stop, he should DTMFA. Her continuing and him happily consenting is an all-expenses-paid trip to fantasyland. Dan suggested that she compassionately stop. If anyone has a fifth option, I’m all ears.

226. Just wanted to add to SUB’s unicorn list. 🙂

227. Dr Phils timing could not of been better. This Thurday. This Thursday and Friday, the show is going to be about a cheating spouse, who wants his wife his wife to consider an open marriage.
     He is going to include everybody, the wife, the husband, and the pond scum who not has no problem sleeping with someone elses spouse three children are at risk of getting their family torn apart. ooops, I guess that I let my bias slip in there.
     This next part is to 223, who says that she suggests that she needs the BF as a crutch to survive. I had two close friends come home from Viet Nam who had PTSD. Before they got the help that they desperated needed, both used booze and drugs as their “crutch” to survive. Thank god they did not have you around to advise them.

228. 226, That is the best comment so far. Dan, could use you as his proof reader. Dan may of been correct, but he was a bit blunt, maybe even a bit cruel

229. Just watched President Obama’s video re’ “It Gets Better” and read Michelle Obama’s comments.
     I’m sure it will be covered in this coming week’s column, but in the meantime:
     http://www.whitehouse.gov/ItGetsBetter?u…

230. “This next part is to 223, who says that she suggests that she needs the BF as a crutch to survive. I had two close friends come home from Viet Nam who had PTSD. Before they got the help that they desperated needed, both used booze and drugs as their “crutch” to survive. Thank god they did not have you around to advise them. “

     And what I was saying is that the sooner she gets some REAL help, the better. People do what they need to do, but she’ll be better off longterm with a good therapist than a mindless fuck. . . and the sooner she moves toward that, the better, for herself, for her husband and for her marriage.

231. Just to add:

     Sleeping with the boyfriend = a bandaid on a gangrenous leg

     Help from a good therapist = throwing maggots on the gangrene

232. Taffy, oops, I think that I goofed and mis read your posts. Sorry about that. You make great points!!

233. I do think the response to PTSD was out of line. For sexual assault, there is no recovery time limit (after a certain point, things should go back to normal again).

     One resource:
     http://www.rainn.org/
     Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network.
     I hope the above is actually helpful. Unlike Dan’s response.

234. I do think the response to PTSD was out of line. For sexual assault, there is no recovery time limit (after a certain point, things should go back to normal again).

     One resource:
     http://www.rainn.org/
     Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network.
     I hope the above is actually helpful. Unlike Dan’s response.

235. I do think the response to PTSD was out of line. For sexual assault, there is no recovery time limit (after a certain point, things should go back to normal again).

     One resource:
     http://www.rainn.org/
     Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network.
     I hope the above is actually helpful. Unlike Dan’s response.

236. I do think the response to PTSD was out of line. For sexual assault, there is no recovery time limit (after a certain point, things should go back to normal again).

     One resource:
     http://www.rainn.org/
     Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network.
     I hope the above is actually helpful. Unlike Dan’s response.

237. @234-237: “For sexual assault, there is no recovery time limit”

     Well, I guess it depends what you mean by “time limit”, exactly. If you mean “amount of time before the husband can fairly decide that he can’t just spend any more of his life with someone who regards him as disgusting”, then I’m afraid many here will just have to disagree on that point.

238. “Funny, I thought marriage was a commitment to live love and to cherish. There have been plenty of non-sexual marriages through the ages, and plenty where attraction waned but couples still treated each other with respect and dignity, whether they had (consensual) affairs on the side or not. Have we suddenly travelled back in time to the age when a marriage can be annulled if it isn’t consummated?”

     Wow!!

     I’m laughing.

     I guess if you want a marriage where both parties have no attraction to each other, you can have one. Meaning AT BEST, their feelings towards each other would be that of good friends.

     I guess if you want to have a marriage where you consider the other person “a good friend”, more power to you.

     I don’t blame PTSD’s husband for not tolerating a marriage where his wife is happy to consider him “a good friend.”

239. “Funny, I thought marriage was a commitment to live love and to cherish. There have been plenty of non-sexual marriages through the ages, and plenty where attraction waned but couples still treated each other with respect and dignity, whether they had (consensual) affairs on the side or not. Have we suddenly travelled back in time to the age when a marriage can be annulled if it isn’t consummated?”

     Wow!!

     I’m laughing.

     I guess if you want a marriage where both parties have no attraction to each other, you can have one. Meaning AT BEST, their feelings towards each other would be that of good friends.

     I guess if you want to have a marriage where you consider the other person “a good friend”, more power to you.

     I don’t blame PTSD’s husband for not tolerating a marriage where his wife is happy to consider him “a good friend.”

240. For sexual assault survivors, it is very common to be able to engage in casual sex more easily and joyously than sex in committed relationships.

     The relationship with the boyfriend does not sound very casual (“It kills me to think about cutting out the one positive relationship remaining.”)

241. PTSD- I am sorry that Dan obviously is either completely ignorant about sexual assault and PTSD or a victim blaming misogynist (maybe both).

     I hope you know that none of this is your fault.

     Dan, if you are reading: http://impersonated.blogspot.com/2010/10…

242. I think that the “PTSD” question was most probably faker than the “two clits” question! Something stinks about it. What is worse, is that all the readers as well as Dan himself, are merely proving that the victim is always blamed! My husband and I both agree, that sex is over-rated! There are way more people living together, in marriage or common-law arrangements, that have no sex life together at all! And they are relatively happy. I think the question was written by a “friend or neighbor” who is on the outside judging and trying to understand.

243. What’s with all of these feminazis calling Dan a misogynist and claiming that sex doesn’t matter in marriage? Why are you reading Dan’s column again? You don’t belong on Slog, PTSD should already know what she’s in for if she asks Dan’s advice: blunt honesty. I’m just going to assume you are trolls or robo responses from super feminist websites. I’m a woman and if my husband decided he wanted to be “just good friends,” I would say fine. We will remain good friends after the divorce. A real partner is there to try and make your life better, and that includes satisfaction of the most basic human instinct: sex. It goes both ways in relationships. I realize you guys are just focusing on the victimhood, but PTSD did write in because she wanted to know what to do about HER feelings and her HUSBAND’s feelings. You guys aren’t reading the letter, grow up. The world isn’t black and white.

244. @ PTSD~ As a “non traditional” relationship therapist and blogger, I would say you need to be in therapy for yourself first. Then you should include your husband and boyfriend in the sessions so you can sort out the negative feelings you are having. If things continue in the way they are it sounds like you need to go into a re-negotiation process with your husband since he is your primary partner. Take good care of yourself and start small. Your relationships are all suffering which means you are too.
     A/s
     Alphasiren

245. I think most of the people here have not been married very long, if at all! That letter was bogus, more than any other letter I have ever read in Dan’s column. The letterwriter starts talking about herself in the third person, stating that it is “I don’t think this is completely unheard of for someone who was relatively recently assaulted…” and that is only one reason I am sure this letter was made up. Are you all so sure if your spouse becomes impotent that it would end your marriage? If so, then your vows are meaningless. The husband can divorce her if he wants to, and the marriage is supposed to be open, so what about his “friends with benefits” who should be giving him what he wants and needs? No doubt this is just someone sticking their head in where it does not belong.

246. I am struck more by what is missing from the letter than what is in. If the letter is in fact real rather than a fabrication, then my impression is that the wife is in material violation of the type of agreement (which prudent and thoughtful people enact before opening a marriage/relationship), has been since she formed her first emotional attachment with a partner (she still has feelings for her assailant), knows it, but does not want to abide by the terms of the agreement. It does not take a genius to anticipate the risks inherent in opening a marriage/relationship. In addition, there is more than enough literature on the subject to provide guidance for the clueless. Risks that should’ve been addressed when formulating the rules/agreement under which the marriage was opened. Only naive fools would open a marriage without such rules/agreement. The The sexual assault, in a sense, is irrelevant as it is only one of many ways that an external partner can adversely affect a marriage/primary relationship (monetary or identity theft, physical abuse, and murder are just a few of the others) and just illustrates the inability of the primaries to control the actions/behaviors of secondaries. Harsh though it may be, the primary who chose the secondary must accept responsibility for the actions of secondary and the adverse consequences of those actions (they have effectively sponsored the secondary and the secondary’s involvement with the primaries). This is especially true for the primary who proposed opening the marriage/relationship even if that person, as is likely in this case, suffers the most harm.

247. 243: “My husband and I both agree, that sex is over-rated!

     Good for you. However, it’s clear that neither the husband nor the wife in this case agree with you. The husband still thinks sex (with him) is important. The wife still thinks sex (with the boyfriend) is important.

     “There are way more people living together, in marriage or common-law arrangements, that have no sex life together at all! And they are relatively happy. “

     Again, good for all of them. Here, however, the husband is miserable. All the other people in the world who think like you don’t make him wrong for being unhappy with the situation.

     246: “Are you all so sure if your spouse becomes impotent that it would end your marriage?”

     The wife here isn’t impotent. She is just impotent with the husband. She’s perfectly ready to go with the other guy. Bad analogy.

     Are you so sure that if your husband made it clear to you that your sexual touching made his skin crawl, and if he contrasted that message about you with how eager he was to go bang a girlfriend of his, because she makes him so incredibly happy, that you would be able to continue to live with him long-term? Why would you want to live with someone who is disgusted by you?

     “If so, then your vows are meaningless.”

     So, apparently are her vows, at least the part where she puts her husband above all others.

     “The husband can divorce her if he wants to, and the marriage is supposed to be open, so what about his “friends with benefits” who should be giving him what he wants and needs?”

     That is actually the best question you’ve asked so far. The letter utterly fails to mention HIS lovers. In as much as they would be a significant mitigating factor, that absence is telling. I get the impression that he doesn’t actually have someone on the side, at least not at anywhere near the same level of intimacy as she does. Between that conspicuous absence and her over-the-top commitment to her boyfriend, I get the impression that she was the one who wanted the marriage to be opened, that the husband went along with it grudgingly so as not to end the marriage, is pursuing his own freedom less than enthusiastically, and and now finds himself relegated quite catastrophically to a secondary within his own marriage.

     As far as giving him what he wants and needs, if that isn’t something that a spouse is supposed to do, why get married? If I can get all my needs met with friends, what’s my incentive to give one of those friends elevated status and access to half my assets?

248. I knew someone once who was very real, and very much a genuine female, who experienced some “orgasmic phenomenon” like those described by your TMF mystery writer. As far as I know, the lady I knew had only one clit, though it was reported to be large and unusually sensitive. While many people enjoy going places by train, she LOVED riding trains, and the place they would take her…

     However, in the interest of scientific curiousity I found this link.
     (A site I’d never think of visiting if not for your column!)
     “http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Female-G…“

     Here’s an exerpt:
     Abnormalities of external genitalia
     •Clitoral abnormalities: these are generally rare, agenesis is extremely rare and is double clitoris or bifid clitoris. Hypertrophy can be associated with a number of intersex disorders.

249. WTF, why has the Anchorage Press stopped running your column, Dan??? Your column is the ONLY reason I pick up the paper

250. When something emotionally traumatic occurs, talking in the third person (disassociation) is the only way the some people can talk about it, as if the bad thing happened to someone else. They are protecting themselves and their damaged/fragile persona. It is far from perfect, but they are at least talking about it, which is a major step in the healing process.

251. 247 and others:
     “which prudent and thoughtful people enact before opening a marriage/relationship”

     I see (and agree with) your point, but most people are neither prudent nor thoughtful. Especially when it comes to sex. (If they were, Dan would be out of a job, and none of us would find this amusing/entertaining). It’s not malicious; it is sadly normal.

     Regarding those that recommend therapy, which seems to be at least 75% of the posters, here’s my take. Even if you ignore the fact that nobody (not husband, not wife, not boyfriend) is going to show up at a therapist’s office tomorrow, therapy won’t change attitudes and behavior without insight. Insight is tough, and doesn’t come quickly or cheaply. Sometimes it doesn’t come at all.

     Therapy is not a goal in and of itself, a short-term fix or a means to buy time before a crisis; first you buy time, then you go into therapy. Going into therapy demonstrates the intent to resolve a particular psychodynamic conflict and make progress on a specific goal, but shouldn’t and can’t be confused with actually making progress on this goal. It’s disingenuous, dishonest, and possibly dangerous to assume otherwise.

252. I’ve seen a somewhat similar situation to PTSD’s in my life. My ex-husband’s first wife was raped. After that she couldn’t stand to have sex with him and she refused to work on the situation. She wanted an open relationship with him, that was essentially just a pass to have casual sex with randoms. Eventually he took her up on it, started seeing me and then they broke up officially. It is fucked up that the husband and the assailant are somehow linked in PTSD’s mind. But it looks clear to me from the letter that she’s already let her husband go emotionally. Maybe it’s time to do it legally as well. For the record my husband’s ex wife has remarried, has three kids and seems really happy. I personally think she fell out of love with him and just didn’t have the balls to break it off, especially since she was very vulnerable and he is a totally supportive, stand up guy. Maybe when PTSD gets a little better in her head she’ll figure it out and put the poor guy out of his misery.

253. What’s really cute here is the posters thinking that they are going to have a debate with Shakesville alumni. It’s pretty much the female-pos/male-neg counterpart of the “bitchez are always wrong” MRAs. One of their writers (PortlyDyke) made the mistake of doing a post on the fact that men have feelings too, and was pretty much howled out for it. They’re set in their ways, label-throwing orthodoxy-sniffers. They’re entitled to their views and lives but you’re wasting your time thinking that you’re going to have a debate.

254. To Seeking Unrestrained Bitch
     keep looking for that unicorn we are out there!!!
     we are ellusive, but well worth the look!

     good luck honey!

255. @246, @251: PTSD uses “I” or “me” over twenty times in her letter. She uses a third-person construction once, when she is trying to relate her specific situation to the general condition of being the victim of a sexual assault. I’m not really seeing a lot of significance in that.

256. Alright, I’ve looked around and I’m coming up blank. What the fuck is a unicorn?

257. If you ask me PTSD’s letter is a very good illustration of why *open relationships* DO NOT WORK.

     This person has a (former) partner (who allegedly committed the assault), a boyfriend, AND a husband?? Does this slut have a JOB? Does (s)he do HOUSEWORK? Or does (s)he just spend every waking moment in bed or bent over the nearest chair for anyone with a stiff prick?

     Disgusting.

258. http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2010…

259. For all the gay football fans. Read to the end.

     http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2010…

260. @257

     Something that doesn’t exist.

261. I know I am at odds with Dan here, but I am with Dr. Drew. Open marriages are a recipe for disaster. That is what DATING is for.

     /curmudgeon

262. @256 I was pointing out to 246 why emotionally traumatized people talk in the third person

263. “PTSD did write in because she wanted to know what to do about HER feelings and her HUSBAND’s feelings.”

     Very well put, @244 (Roadflare).

     I wished some of the more ‘oversimplifying’ posters here (feminist or otherwise) would ponder this simple fact.

264. @257: A unicorn is that rare breed of (unattached) woman who has sex with a male-female swinging couple. Nearly all MF swinger couples are searching for such a mythical beast, but as 261 states, they don’t exist.

     Kim in Portland claims to be a unicorn, but she is just a figment of our collective imaginations.

265. Ahhh, unicorns. I suppose technically I’m one as well, but my response to any proposition from a couple is unprintable even in Dan’s column. They don’t exist *because* of these couples looking for ’em.

     *spits*

     *ahem*

     Anyway…

266. Shakesville…it’s weird. I remember this blog way back when, and it was pretty cool… then I watched it implode into the super ultra conservative (for lack of a better word) form of feminism. Just odd. Haven’t poked around those parts seriously for oh, several years now I suppose.

267. @257, 261, 265, 266:

     No, in this context, a “unicorn” refers to a young dominant woman. See the last sentence of the last letter to Dan.

     More generally, “unicorn” can refer to anything rare or nonexistent. Sex-negative poly people (surprisingly, there seem to be many of them) sometimes also use the term to refer to a woman who actually likes casual sex with a couple, erroneously thinking that women couldn’t possibly want that (many do).

268. @194 (if you’re still there):

     Thanks for explaining, and I’m glad to know it’s not a straight ultimatum… but I still don’t really understand what happens if one partner wants monogamy for an extended period, and the other wants a return to the open relationship. At what point are you supposed to say “I understand you need monogamy right now, but that’s not what I’m interested in and I don’t think we’re compatible”? How would that arrangement work for someone who really doesn’t want monogamy?

269. @194 (if you’re still there):

     Thanks for explaining, and I’m glad to know it’s not a straight ultimatum… but I still don’t really understand what happens if one partner wants monogamy for an extended period, and the other wants a return to the open relationship. At what point are you supposed to say “I understand you need monogamy right now, but that’s not what I’m interested in and I don’t think we’re compatible”? How would that arrangement work for someone who really doesn’t want monogamy?

270. @259 and 260: Thanks for sharing. As a hard-core football fan bi-chick, I found this uproariously funny, and a spot-on character sketch of both coaches. All I can add is that Rex Ryan probably learned his f-bomb techniques from Brian Billick when they were both with the Ravens. Great way to start a work day!

271. @271

     Well, I guess that’s what I meant about having the discussions at the beginning. When you enter into an open relationship, either ab initio or as a transition from a monogamous relationship, both people need to understand what both need and expect. Some people’s needs just aren’t compatible, and they shouldn’t be together.

     I think there are really two major styles of open relationship that I have seen defended here, and it’s confusing when we simply call both “non-monogamy” and leave it there. One is fundamentally poly, with multiple intimate/sexual relationships that all matter a lot, and though there may be a primary, one’s obligation to that primary is limited. The other is basically monogamy plus, with those wonderful yummy excursions from monogamy permitted only while both members of the couple are OK with it. I don’t think that there is a problem with either type, as long as both members of a couple see eye to eye. My experience says that the mono-plus type has more long-term stability, but that is not a slam against the true poly types at all. It is just that freedom and stability are, in some sense, opposing forces. More of one necessarily implies less of the other, just as at the level of a society order and liberty are opposing forces (since liberty means freedom to disrupt order). In the course of the turmoil and stresses of life, truly long-term relationships sometimes require some sacrifice of personal freedom for the sake of stability. Thus, it’s more likely that people who are willing to sacrifice their personal fulfilment for the stability of a relationship will stay in a relationship.

272. @ 265 and 266
     Funny, as a man who has been in open and semi-open relationships, I have not had that much trouble finding those “unicorn” single females for casual fun. I also know straight couples who have had months-to-years long relationships with women (including living together). Perhaps you just have to look in the right places.

     @ 258 and 262
     You are closed-minded jerks. There are plenty of responsible, ethical, and loving non-monogamous people out there. Scottsteaux63 in particular, you seem kind of scared of women’s sexuality, dude. Get over it.

273. When I first read PTSD’a, letter it seemed rather familiar. The way it was written, reminded me of a letter the I had read a while back, here in this column. I did a bit of research, andI found the letter in the March 2008 column. I suspect that it was written by the same person. If my hunch is correct, then we have a husband who was forced to either or accept this wifes affair, or loose his marriage and family. This is a recipe for disaster, and this could explain why he can not tolerate her bad behavior. It would not of been the first time that the marriage came in second place. Dan’s advice was right on, and if she really “loves” her husband/ marriage, she need to follow his advice., and put the lover on the back burner unit the she and the marriage are stable.
     Like I said earlier, this is just a hunch that the same person wrote both letters, not fact

274. @274 From my personal experience, I steer clear of committed (particularly married MF) partners. Three ways are complex as it is, and the inherent drama I have run into isn’t worth it (especially those trying to fix issues in the relationship by bringing a third in… nuh uh).

275. @273 I think you are right and if you are, then the bitch got exactly what she deserved. The husband should dump the skank and move on. People who play with matches shouldn’t be surprised when they get burned. I also wonder if her assailant was guy she was so gaga about in 2008.

276. @273:

     That makes perfect sense to me, and I completely agree. Thanks for writing that so clearly: it’s not confusing anymore!

277. oops, sorry, that should’ve been 275 not 273

278. 277, No one deserves to be sexually assaulted, Ever!! I hope that the person that did it, goes to prison a long time. If he is a repeat offender, life in prison would be in order

279. If the March 6, 2008 letter writer is the same woman as the current letter writer, then Dan’s response to this letter is tragically right. It’s one thing if the current letter was written by a person who opened up the relationship with the husband’s willing acceptance, it’s another kettle of fish if her husband’s sole reason for opening up the marriage was to prevent his loss of access to his wife and family (only to lose his wife to the predations of another man while she consoles herself in the arms of a different man entirely *and* mourns the loss in her life of her sexual assaulter.)

     I mean, if they’re the same person, he has to feel like an idiot for going against his principles to keep her, for standing aside while she has sex with various men in an effort to avoid divorcing her, then for trying to be supportive to a woman who tells him that she finds him disgusting while fucking another guy (and this is without going into the minor detail that she’s on the fence about whether she should actually *do* anything about repairing her revulsion for her husband.)

     I hope that they aren’t the same person, because I’d have way too many harsh words to say to a woman who would put a LOYAL man through something like that. MEN (not adult males who think that everything has to be their way or the highway) who are willing to sublimate their own happiness for their women, only to learn that their women hate them for their sacrifice, deserve a hell of a lot better.

     http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…

280. 277, I need to add one more comment, and then I am done. I never believed that the person in the original letter was a “b…., or a Skank. I think that she was what she said she was, and that she gave 100% to her marriage. She became angry, then bitter, when her hubby dis-reguarded her desires/ needs. If he tried to work with her a bit, and been a bit more giving sexually, their never would of been a seperation ,or a third person in the marriage. I suspect that he learned the hard way, and is paying a heavy and painful price for being rather selfish. I do wish that she would of given him one more chance
     For those us who are married, their some valuable lessons to be learned from this letter.

281. @280 I was intentionally being being offensive and incendiary. You’re absolutely right that no one ever deserves to be sexually assaulted (or emotionally abused for that matter), but you should read the referenced earlier letter. A lot woulld be explained if they are, in fact, written by the same person (like why she has a sense of loss about losing her assailant and why she feels like she has already lost her husband, that happened when she forced the marriage open something she may just have realized, or not). That husband would be in absolute hell (particularly if wife forced open the marriage to have amazing sex with her eventual assailant). No one has the right to do that to another person, even if they weren’t getting what they needed/wanted, whether it be sexual or emotional. My reaction was overly visceral. I guess I was was offended by how glowingly she described the open marriage during which time she was probably and cruelly inflicting misery on her husband and only now does that concern her. Emotional abuse, like rape is mainly about control, power, and humiliation.

     Granted all of this pure conjecture on part and if I am wrong then PTSD and everyone I have offended has my abject apology, but what if my conjecture is accurate. The similarities between the letters are quite striking. It’s not my place to judge her, but as many others have, I wondered about the harshness of Dan’s response. He apparently knows then he’s telling, now what could that be?

282. PTSD, I’m sorry for the people who were so harsh on you. I was in a somewhat similar situation recently. I experienced extreme physical pain during sex with my boyfriend of three years because of a poorly-understood medical condition. I didn’t know whether I would get triggered again any time we had sex, and I feared the pain so much I couldn’t bear to have sex with him. (I avoided other triggers too, like walking fast, but to the point of being scared to leave the house.) We were monogamous, but my lifeline was online gaming, and the people I met there, who I could get a certain… flirtatious attention from. It made me feel whole and beautiful, and for a moment, I forgot my body was betraying me. And I spent time with the computer instead of my boyfriend.

     PTSD, my friends tried the “you’re being a little shit, grow up” intervention with me, just like Dan and most of the commenters. It didn’t work. I was too upset, too irrational, already too deep into what would become a year of spiraling further into depression and anxiety. It felt like I was losing my friends, the only people I felt like I could turn to. I felt like screaming, “But I’m hurting! Cut me some slack!”

     So I ignored them. This is how it turned out for me: My friends really were there for me (even if I wouldn’t take their advice), my boyfriend exploded with resentment six months later and we’re no longer speaking a year after that, I sat at home depressed for almost nine months, I met a guy through my online game I wasn’t afraid to fuck because he didn’t put as much pressure on me as my ex had, I was in and out of therapy and I still have panic attacks. Some of it was good, most of it was bad.

     I know you want to cling to the one happy part of your life right now. I’ve been there. Sometimes, that can keep you from getting the help you need. Please, go to therapy. If you can’t find a good therapist, there’s an online resource for cognitive behavioral therapy called MoodGym (Google it) that really helped, once I finally realized I needed it.

     Bandaids are great and you need them, but they won’t help much if you’ve got a seething infection too. Maybe it’ll heal on its own… Or maybe it won’t. If your relationship with your husband is worth saving, he’s made it clear that you can’t save it without changing something. If your husband is putting too much pressure on you (and your boyfriend isn’t), tell the husband, and if the trust can’t be rebuilt, then leave now. If it’s worth it to stay, then stay. Either way, I think you should take a temporary break from the boyfriend… Take it a day at a time. You might surprise yourself with your ability to survive without, and it will probably give you some perspective either way. Good luck!

283. Nitpick for @155: Unless she’s dumping vinegar on her husband’s head or something, she is not literally pouring acid on her husband, and as marriages are intangible I’m not sure how you could literally pour acid on one.

     “Literal” gets enough abuse as it is, please don’t add to it…

284. Perhaps I was born at night, but I assure you I wasn’t born last night! PTSD is so full of crap it’s not even funny. She’s in a poly relationship and can fuck the shit out of her boyfriend with no problem, but she can’t fuck her husband with out breaking down? Puhleeeze! This letter is as fake as tits on a porn star or she just wants permission to DTMFA.

285. don’t worry, SUB, we’re out there. we may be a little bit shy!

286. I used to respect your opinions MR Savage. However, your judgmental Savage attack on a rape victim is disgusting. I can’t believe that in 2010 you could be so disingenuous to this women. I have seen far too much violence
     against women and at the age of nine was placed in the position of having
     to stop the attempted rape of my 13 year old sister. I suggest that it is you
     sir who is in need of professional help in reconnecting with your humanity.

287. Well, we all know that the way to assist a woman who has experienced sexual assault is to abuse her verbally.

     Savage, YOU are the total shit here.

     Although, I will say, anyone who needs advice and comes to you obviously isn’t thinking clearly.

288. It sounds to me like the rape made this woman realize that she didn’t want to have sex with her husband anymore. It made her realize that she was doing it just because she was married to him and not because she wanted to. The marriage sex is too much like rape for her to tolerate it after actually being raped. She should try to figure out what’s gone wrong with her marriage, and if it can’t be fixed she needs to end it and be with the boyfriend. Your true feelings are far more important than a piece of paper at the courthouse.

289. It sounds to me like the rape made PTSD realize that she didn’t want to have sex with her husband anymore. It made her realize that she was doing it just because she was married to him and not because she wanted to. The marriage sex is too much like rape for her to tolerate it after actually being raped. She should try to figure out what’s gone wrong with her marriage, and if it can’t be fixed, she needs to end it and be with the boyfriend. Your true feelings are far more important than a piece of paper at the courthouse.

290. White male entitled garbage. So you encourage men to leave their fat wives, but you encourage a rape victim to stay in a marriage that is psychologically damaging for her? Are you nuts? No, just a gay entitled liberal white male. If you are reading this ptsd Savage had no right to say that you are being a “little shit” for not wanting to sleep with your husband. If you are triggered by sleeping with him you need to leave. Go be with your boyfriend and get therapy. Anyone who is admonishing you for being a victim is victimizing you again.
     As for Savage, once again he proves that he has no understanding of what females go through sexually and nor does he care. You are disgusting Sir.

291. White male entitled garbage. So you encourage men to leave their fat wives, but you encourage a rape victim to stay in a marriage that is psychologically damaging for her? Are you nuts? No, just a gay entitled liberal white male. If you are reading this ptsd Savage had no right to say that you are being a “little shit” for not wanting to sleep with your husband. If you are triggered by sleeping with him you need to leave. Go be with your boyfriend and get therapy. Anyone who is admonishing you for being a victim is victimizing you again.
     As for Savage, once again he proves that he has no understanding of what females go through sexually and nor does he care. You are disgusting Sir.

292. Fuck you Dan, what a misogynist piece of male privileged drivel.

     “then stop emotionally assaulting your husband and put both your marriage and him out of their misery.”

     Emotionally assaulting him HOW? By not having sex with him?

     What a pile a garbage, no person has any obligation to have sex with ANYONE.

293. Okay, I’m a woman and I’ve been in a poly relationship for the last 7+ years (same primary partner, male, and we’ve both had different secondaries at times, still friends with most of them). So I’ve had a lot of the feelings of PTSD’s husband at various times, for different reasons (typically involving my primary cheating on me and then continuing to focus his emotional energy on someone else).

     As, I believe, my partner has as well when I was severely depressed for a few years and had sex drive issues (further compounded by him cheating on me). It IS crappy when someone you love and care for rejects you sexually. It is especially crappy when they do so while continuing to fuck someone else (and/or by cheating on you with someone else).

     I do not read this as PTSD’s husband feeling “entitled” to sex. I read it as him feeling deeply hurt and rejected that his wife, whom he loves, does not want to have sex with him–actively finds him repulsive and triggering (he may be feeling extra-crappy, wondering why he apparently reminds her of the person who assaulted her)–while having sex with someone else. I think that’s totally legitimate. His feelings are legitimate, even if he is expressing them in a counterproductive way. Most people cannot turn off their own feelings, even when they know intellectually that what their partner is dealing with is more important. The problem is that his feelings and how he expresses them may be triggering PTSD.

     However, PTSD cannot help her triggers, either. And it can be extremely difficult to seek therapy, especially if one is depressed and/or traumatized. It sounds like he has complicated feelings about what happened that may be contributing to feelings of guilt. Perhaps she may feel she doesn’t deserve help, or that a therapist will judge her, or that going to a therapist means there’s something irrevocably wrong with her (therapy IS still pretty stigmatized). Of course, perhaps her husband is an entitled asshole who just wants to fuck her and doesn’t care about her recovery. We don’t really have enough to be able to judge his behavior.

     I don’t think “the immediate problem” is who’s having sex with whom. That will sort itself out once the underlying issues are dealt with.

     First, where’s the boyfriend in this? How long has he known them? Is he friends with the husband? Does HE want their marriage to remain stable? The three of them need to sit down and talk honestly about the situation and how to proceed to maximize healing for PTSD and her husband and minimize pain for all of them. Is the boyfriend willing to be there and supportive for her without sex (in the short term)? Is it the sex with the boyfriend that is important for PTSD or the emotional support?

     Second, whether or not the husband has any other partners is irrelevant. If he is hurt because he is rejected sexually (and, it sounds like emotionally as well) by HIS WIFE, having sex with someone else, no matter how much he cares for that person, won’t necessarily help. People are not interchangeable masturbatory aids. When my primary partner has not been interested in sex, having sex with my secondary did not make me feel any better about the situation. Lest you say this is because I am a ~gurl~, my male partner has felt the same in a reversed situation.

     Third, reverting to monogamy may or may not be helpful in the situation. This depends so much on the people involved and the situation that I would not weigh in either way for someone else (I’ve found it personally helpful once, and another time I knew it would be sweeping the issue under the rug instead of actually addressing it). Too, reverting to monogamy can lead to treating secondaries like disposable masturbatory aids rather than people (and if they’re people, they can be part of the solution). As others have pointed out, it could also be a problem for PTSD–not having sex she can enjoy isn’t exactly going to make her magically want to have sex with her husband again. This is a decision that needs to be made after the three of them discuss it, and possibly with the input of a good, poly-friendly therapist who has experience with counselling assault survivors.

     Fourth, I think PTSD needs therapy, from a poly-friendly counsellor with counselling assault survivors. However, after some period of therapy, I would strongly, strongly recommend couples therapy if PTSD and her husband still want to remain together. Something may come up there that suggests that her husband might benefit from individual counselling, or it may not (I am a generally proponent of individual therapy to understand yourself and how you relate to other people better, but YMMV). With this much pain going on, PTSD and her husband likely have stuff they really need to work out together, not just individually. If they really want to save the marriage, if it can be saved.

     If PTSD is unable or unwilling to get therapy (and potentially dial things back with the boyfriend until things are on a more even keel with her husband), yeah, I wouldn’t blame the husband for moving on. That doesn’t mean PTSD is a bad person, but if the situation is emotionally untenable for the husband, it wouldn’t make him a bad person for leaving, either. People have limits, and those limits may not be “fair” but they do exist.

     Regardless of whether PTSD gets into therapy to save the marriage, or gets into therapy for her own personal health (and sex with the boyfriend may be great, but I kind of doubt it is a long-term fix), please, get into therapy. It may or may not save the marriage–if the marriage can or should be saved–but it will be good for PTSD.

294. I think Savage is trying to make a point with PTSD. Maybe if she feels offended by his advice, it’ll spark some feeling in her of why it offends her. Is it inherently offensive because it’s true? If she even feels that may be a possibility, then she would probably do everything in her power to demonstrate FULLY how untrue she can make it. Being offended or humiliated can be the most powerful motivator to unfuck yourself.

295. Short version: ignore everyone on the internet. Find a good, poly-friendly, experienced therapist. If the first one sucks, try a different one.

     Therapy isn’t fun, but it’s effective. Strangers on the internet are less likely to be so, and so are advice columnists.

296. Cudos to 295, Mel89. This is probably the best post this subject, and definitely the most thought out. I hope that PTSD has read it, and that it is helpful to her. GOOD JOB #295!

297. Why the fuck do people who think sex is not important read Dan’s columns?

     I think PTSD blames her husband for basically whoring her out and not protecting his treasured wife from such a thing. After all if he had guarded her and considered her and their sex life a precious sacred treasure this would not have happened.

     Now before you say I am judgmental and misogynist, I’m a woman in a somewhat open relationship. And yes, our extra partners are second class, our relationship is primary, that is why we are married. And the previous paragraph is not what I think it necessarily means when a couple is open. But if I was a woman who had just recently been sexually assaulted and was so deeply repressing it I hadn’t even seen a fucking counsellor yet and was DEBATING seeing one after something that traumatizing, my very primal side might well be sending me those messages. Maybe I don’t even hear them in plain words, but I bet they are in her guts and heart and well, specifically, in her pussy.

298. Sacculina is right about everything. Thank you, Sacculina. The end.

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