My mother left her e-mail logged in on my computer, and I decided to be an asshole and snoop out of boredom. I honestly wasn’t expecting anything, but I found a few intimate e-mails between her and a strange man that pretty much confirmed that she was cheating on my dad.

My parents have been married for almost three decades, and it’s kind of an understatement to say he’s an antisocial psycho. He restricted her from so many things during their marriage—partly for religious/cultural reasons—and honestly did not appreciate what he had. He’s been a physical wreck for most of their marriage and has no personality to compensate. My mother, on the other hand, is one of the nicest and most caring people you could ever meet.

Okay: Dad’s an abusive asshole and borderline psycho, and Mom’s a beautiful woman with a lot of opportunities and social skills. The only reason she didn’t leave him was to keep the family together and for those same stupid cultural reasons. But it’s hard knowing my mom is a CPOS. It’s killing my older brother, who is close to her, and it’s making him really depressed. He feels betrayed, because for years he’s defended her against my father when he accuses her of cheating and calls her a whore. So what I want advice on is how the hell to confront her about it. I know I snooped in her e-mail, and I know that was wrong. So what the hell to say?

Mother Obliterated Monogamy

Here’s what you say to your mother: “Good for you, Mom.”

But you’re going to say it under your breath, MOM, audible but not quite loud enough for your mother to hear.

Because you’re not going to confront her about this affair or any other affair that you might uncover between now and your father’s death and you’re not going to tell your mom you snooped and you and your brother are going to go right on defending your mother to your father and you’re going to show a little respect—a little retroactive respect—for your mother’s privacy by pretending that you don’t know what you do know.

Is that clear?

Your mom sounds like a lovely woman, MOM, and you and your brother should be happy that she managed to find a little solace, a little love and tenderness, in the arms of a man who isn’t a raving asshole. She deserves that, doesn’t she? As for the CPOS label, that gets slapped only on people who cheat without cause, MOM, and it sure sounds like your mom had cause. Which means she’s not a cheating piece of shit. She’s cheating on a piece of shit.

Yes, yes: Maybe your mom should’ve divorced your father, or had him murdered, but for reasons that will only ever be known to her, MOM, she decided that keeping her family intact—maybe for cultural reasons, maybe for her boys—was more important than remaining faithful to an antisocial psycho. It’s easy to say that cheating is always wrong and to call everyone who cheats a POS, but sometimes an affair is the least worst option.

As for your brother’s feelings of betrayal: Maybe your dad was right and your mom was cheating on him throughout their marriage and his tirades were justified and your brother was a fool to defend your mother. Or maybe your mom decided, after being accused of cheating again and again, and after being called a whore again and again, that if she was going to be accused, indicted, and tried for that particular crime, she might as well have the pleasure of committing it. Encourage your brother to give your mother the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like she deserves it.

I’m a 28-year-old gay man. My only sibling is getting married next year, and I’m invited. My family doesn’t support my gayness. My mom has met my boyfriend only once and refused to be in his presence for more than two minutes. Should I bring my boyfriend to my sister’s wedding or ask him to stay home? My invitation came with only my name on it.

Brother Of The Bride

You say: “Hey, Sis. Looking forward to the wedding. I’ve been seeing a great guy for two years now, as you know, and I’m planning on bringing him to the wedding.”

If she says, “Don’t bring him. It’ll just piss off Mom,” then you say, “I’m coming with my boyfriend or I’m not coming at all—and remember, Sis, one day Mom will be dead and it’s just going to be you and me. So in the long run, you should be more concerned about pissing me off than pissing Mom off.”

And if she says, “Don’t bring him. I don’t want your gay boyfriend at my wedding,” then you say, “If you don’t want gays at your wedding, Sis, then you shouldn’t have invited me. I want to be there—but if I come, I’m bringing my boyfriend.”

Have the confrontation now, BOTB, so that you can’t be accused of trying to make trouble/drama right before your sister’s wedding. But you need to seize this opportunity to dictate terms to your family: They can have their homophobia or they can have you in their lives—but they can’t have both.

Last year, around this time, you promised to share your mom’s Christmas cookie recipe with the readers of your blog. I would love to try it out if you’re okay with sharing the recipe.

Jason

I’m delighted to share my mom’s Christmas cookie recipe. She made these chocolate snowballs every year when her kids were young. Once her kids were grown, Ma Savage shipped tins of these cookies to us if we couldn’t make it home for Christmas. Now I make them in December and ship tins off to my siblings on her behalf. It’s a great recipe for folks with little kids: There’s a step where you roll the dough into balls, a perfect job for little (freshly washed) hands.

I made some earlier this month, had a little sob (I’m still missing my mom), and got some tins off to my sibs. I’m happy to share my mom’s recipe with you, Jason, and with Savage Love readers.

Ma Savage’s Christmas Snowballs

2 cups flour

1/8 teaspoon salt

1/2 cup unsweetened cocoa powder

1 1/4 cup butter

2/3 cup sugar

1 teaspoon vanilla

2 cups pecans

confectioners’ sugar

Sift flour, salt, and cocoa together. Cream butter and sugar until fluffy, and add vanilla. Gradually beat dry ingredients into butter and sugar. Blend in pecans. Form dough into a loaf, wrap it up, put in fridge overnight.

Cut loaf into inch-thick slices, cut slices into inch-square cubes, roll cubes into balls about one inch in diameter. Bake on ungreased cookie sheet at 350 degrees for 20 minutes maximum. Transfer cookies off sheets right away and allow to cool completely. Put cookies in tub or tin, sift confectioners’ sugar over cookies, put lid on, turn tin or tub over a few times to coat cookies with confectioners’ sugar.

Enjoy my mom’s cookies and have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year, everyone.

mail@savagelove.net

213 replies on “Savage Love”

  4. I hope MOM’s mother’s boyfriend is an awesome guy who proposes to her right after the last shovel of dirt is heaped on her asshole husband.

    Right over the grave, too.

    BOTB: When you get married, don’t invite her husband, and see how she likes it.

  5. How DARE you call your mother a CPOS, MOM. Your FATHER is the piece of shit and your mom is a saint for putting up with it for five minutes, let alone three decades!

    Let her enjoy whatever little joy she’s found away from your asshole father.

  6. MOM’s sons are misogynistic douchebags. Content to defend mom while she’s being abused. But the second she steps out of the martyr role–which they only find out about through snooping!–they forget their dad’s YEARS of abuse and start to question mom. How about shutting the fuck up and being thankful that she’s FINALLY doing something for herself? And discreetly? Assholes.

  8. Dan, why not encourage the sons to talk to their mother about divorcing the asshole? The sons are obviously old enough to handle it, and the mother’s rationalization to stay in the marriage is not as valid as before. Who knows, perhaps it can end well for three of the family members.

  9. re: BOTB

    I kind of agree with the advice, but kind of not. The sister doesn’t want drama at her wedding- and tried to make it clear by putting only BOTB’s name on the invite.

    I think it’s fair to ask if your boyfriend can come, but by making it a “her or me” thing, you’re putting her on the spot. It doesn’t sound like your sister has any problem with your lifestyle, she probably just doesn’t want any drama.

    You can choose to make this a political issue if you want, but it will add to her stress if you “win”. If she wants to make a stand, then fine, that would be awesome, but for her sake, please don’t push it.

    And at your wedding one day (and no matter where you live, you will be allowed to marry one day), if you don’t want screaming kids to be there and you ask her to leave them with a sitter, you will be grateful when she allows you to have your own, stress-free day, too.

  10. #7 – are we sure MOM is a son, rather than a daughter? Nothing in the letter indicates one way or the other. Not that girls can’t be misogynistic douchebags, or course! Dan’s advice is absolutely spot-on though.

    #5 – Yes, yes, and YES!

  11. Hey, MOM, how did your older brother find out about your mom’s private emails?
    HE feels “betrayed?” Your mother seems to have been betrayed by her entire family, including the children she stayed with (in the words of one of them) “an abusive asshole and borderline psycho” in order to protect.

    You should be ashamed of yourself. Not only does she deserve a better husband, she deserves better children. If you love her and you have the slightest bit of human compassion, you’d be cheering that she’s got one person in her life who wants to make her happy.

    Also, I don’t know how old you are, but grow up: your mother has a right to happiness in life, and the world isn’t as black-and-white as you’d seem to like it to be.

  13. and #10 — yes, it does sound like the sister has a problem with it. He says “my FAMILY doesn’t support my gayness,” not just his mother, and if you are right that she deliberately left off the “+1” (I don’t think we know that, fwiw), then yes, that’s a problem.

  14. #10 – Being gay isn’t a lifestyle. You can choose a lifestyle, but you can’t choose your sexual orientation.

    Think about BOTB’s situation, but imagine that instead of being gay, BOTB is a straight white guy with a racist family and an African American girlfriend. Is it okay not to invite his girlfriend to make sure there’s no drama?

    Bringing one’s significant other to a wedding isn’t a “political statement” and it’s not necessarily “taking a stand” – it’s just living a full, open life.

    I think Dan’s advice is spot-on, including the part about hashing it out ahead of time. That way the sister can choose: either to have her brother at her wedding, or to condone and enable homophobia.

  15. Oh, for the love of God, MOM. You have zero right to discuss anything with anyone.

    What’s that you say? It’s giving you an ulcer? Good. It serves you right. The next time you have the chance to violate someone else’s privacy, the gnawing pain in your gut will remind you to butt out.

  16. Right on, #9… maybe if the mother hears that she has the love and support of her children, she will find the courage to leave her husband…

  17. Yep, I have to agree; MOM and MOM’s brother should keep whatever they found confidential. If MOM’s description of their father is accurate, then their mother’s escapades look like a necessity for someone who wants to keep her sanity.

    My impression is that MOM is probably young (and so is his brother). He’s jumping to CPOS labeling because of the mere act of cheating; it feels as if he hasn’t noticed that people aren’t either 100% angelic or 100% demonic (I’ll bet their father also has a few redeeming features that weren’t mentioned). He wishes his mother were ‘pure’ and never had to lie.

    But time will help. He will grow and, after being in a few complicated situations himself, will realize that he still has — has always had — a great mom, despite any ‘cheating.’

  18. Jeez people! You’d be upset to learn that your mom/dad cheated on your dad/mom, too! Even if dad/mom is a total jerk! It’s just human nature — we like our parents perfect.

    And Dan, if you’re going to acknowledge that nearly anyone in a lifelong relationship is going to cheat a little, you should also acknowledge that anyone in a lifelong relationship is going to snoop a little. Both serve purposes, and both can be very painful.

  19. MOM, YOU are a prying gossipy blabber mouth selfish POS. You and your sibling need to butt out, grow up and grow a pair.

    BotB, you know that old saying “no one can make you feel inferior without your permission”? That applies double if it’s coming from your own family. Quit giving them permission.

  23. Dan, you’re really getting soft in your old age. I think the mid-90’s era DS would have ripped MOM a few new ones. She/He certainly deserves it.

    Still, your compassion most likely will get through to her/him a lot quicker than the vitriol which will be poured upon MOM in the ensuing comments. Vitriol that she/he so richly deserves. A brave woman with the patience of Job, and all MOM writes about is me, me, me.

    Oh, & @19….
    You reading comprehension isn’t up to par. Re-read the letter again.

  24. Um, sorry, but weddings are not date affairs. They are for family and close friends. If the boyfriend is not family (i.e. commitment ceremony or at the minimum cohabitation), the guy should not assume his bf belongs there. Much less that he can just invite him to his sister’s wedding. It’s her damn wedding, not his opportunity to make a political statement.

    But if he feels like the bf is family, he should politely decline the invitation and tell his sister that he already had plans to be with his real family (the bf) and he is not ditching the bf for her wedding. If she extends an invitation at that point, fine, he should go, if that’s what he wants. Otherwise he has just been handed a goldplated excuse to avoid a horrible event (all weddings are boring horrors, stop deluding yourselves, ladies). And mom and sis can wallow in the shit they dumped all over her special day by having to explain why their homophobia meant the family fag was a no-show.

    And not only would it be rude to the sister to give her an ultimatum to invite the boyfriend (maybe she has good reasons, maybe not), he ain’t doing the bf any favors by dragging him to an godawful family event he knows he was intentionally not invited to. That invitation purposely did not include the bf or “and guest”. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to crash a party, much less a party where I know I will not be welcome. Why does Dan think it’s so important to do so?

  25. Dear Dan,

    Thank you for the cookie recipe and Merry Christmas to you and your family too. It was so touching to read about your annual tradition and how you’re still missing your mom.

    Also, I totally agree with all the advice this week.

    @10 – If BOTB’s sister isn’t going to support him and his relationship, why should he go to her wedding and support hers? Being gay and having a boyfriend is normal, it’s not a matter of creating drama. The homophobic family is creating drama by refusing to accept BOTB, and the sister shouldn’t be accommodating that.

  26. I don’t agree at all with the advice for BOTB. His sister’s wedding is not an excuse to take hostages in the conflict with the parents. It’s her wedding, not BOTB’s, and while it’s perfectly fine for BOTB to ask if he can bring his +1, it’s a dick move to not respect the sister’s wishes. What kind of asshole says “I will only agree to come to your wedding if you agree to have mom and dad be pissed off the whole time?”

    There’s nothing the sister can do to make her parents enlightened. But BOTB can certainly, for one day, accept that his parents are less than enlightened and leave the boyfriend at home.

    Besides, who is to say the parents have anything to do with it? Maybe the sister doesn’t want the boyfriend there simply because he’s even more of a dick than BOTB is.

  27. @26: The sister isn’t having a wedding to support her brother’s relationship. She’s having a wedding to recognize HER relationship. If BOTB wants the sister to support his relationship, he should have a wedding and invite her.

    The sister is not obligated to induce drama/conflict into her wedding to support anyone else’s relationships. The sister can have a conflict-free wedding without her parents. Or she can have a conflict free wedding without the brother’s boyfriend. Parents win.

    And, if she must, she can have a conflict-free wedding without her brother and his boyfriend, but only if her brother insists on attempting to turn her wedding into a battleground for his conflict with his parents.

  28. God damn how are this many comments already?

    Advice for MOM: Dan nailed it. DO NOT SNOOP unless you are ready to find out the most nasty, disgusting things about the snoopee. Snoopy. heheh

    But seriously, let well enough alone. Your brother only knows because YOU TOLD HIM. Keep your hands and words to yourself next time.

  29. Sure, MOM’s mom should leave the dude. It would be lovely if she could discuss the possibility with her sons. But I think Dan picked up on something more important… mom’s privacy (or, after the asshole e-vesdropping, the illusion of privacy). To confront her would be humiliating. She’s put up with the bastard this long because she can’t or won’t leave him. The kids can talk with her about that, but to say they know about the affair is out of the question. MOM found out in an assholic way, so now he must suffer like an asshole. He must continue to shaddup shuttin up.

  30. I disagree with the advice to BOTB. It’s not about him and his boyfriend, it’s about his sister and her soon to be husband. Sure, it’s expected that one should invite the long term boyfriend/girlfriend of a sibling, but for all we know, maybe the sister doesn’t like her brother’s boyfriend, and it has nothing to do with her personal feelings on homosexuality in general. Or maybe she just wants a nice peaceful wedding without drama. Or maybe she’s only inviting family. Who knows? Whatever the reason, it is extremely rude to insist on bringing another guest, when only BOTB was invited in the first place. Would it be so bad if BOTB simply ASKED his sister why his boyfriend wasn’t invited in the first place, before starting to make demands and ultimatums?

  31. reading all y’all comments about how BOTB should shut up about his boyfriend not being invited to the wedding are sickening.

    you’re the kind of people who would pull this kind of homophobic shit and think you’d gotten away with it.

    here’s a hint: gay people can tell when you’re acting in a homophobic manner, even if you don’t make it obvious or say any homophobic words at the same time. grow a brain – not giving the gay kid a +1 invite is bullshit.

    because you are not gay, you wouldn’t know what it is like to have your family not acknowledge your relationship. you expect people to come to your weddings, give you gifts and free money just because you have formed a co-dependent emotional bond with another human being, but won’t extend the same recognition to BOTB because his old Ma might be offended. put yourself in another’s shoes for a change.

    good advice, Dan.

    as for MOM – agreed with basically everyone – OPTION A: either put your money where your mouth is, DON’T mention the emails but tell your mom that you support her if she decided to leave your father…

    OPTION B: don’t tell your mom shit, and you shouldn’t have mentioned anything to your brother either, it wasn’t yours to know or to tell. seems like you found more than you bargained for and now you can’t handle it. HINT: don’t snoop, dumbshit!

  33. I don’t understand all these comments that BOTB should suffer in silence. If she only invited her siblings and not their spouses/significant others, then that would be one thing. But to intentionally preclude him from having a date, ANY date, at a wedding when everyone else is going to be accompanied is flat out wrong.

    People are saying he shouldn’t use her wedding to make a political stand, but that is exactly what she is doing. Separate but equal never is.

  34. BotB’s participation is either important or it isn’t. If it isn’t, then they excuse him from the wedding. If it is, then it is, and they should take the boyfriend.

    Any other insistence is a mixed message BotB shouldn’t feel ashamed to say he isn’t equipped to accept. No one is that equipped.

    MOM’s mom left her login session live. She didn’t deserve to have her privacy violated, but no one didn’t deserve to be tempted like that like MOM was either. S/he should feel free to confess to an honest transgression. Breaks should fall all around.

  36. Dan, your advice to MOM is spot on. The son had no business snooping in his mum’s e-mail, much less sharing what he found with his brother. They need to let their mum have what little happiness she can. There are some things that are none of a our business where our parents are concerned. Just as there are things no parent wants to know about their kid. My dad controlled my mum in much the same way. Fortunately, they got divorced after 30 years. The irony of that was my dad filed for divorce to prove how much my mother needed him not expecting her take him up on the offer.

  37. I’m wondering if the only time they stand up for their mom to Psycho Dad is when he’s on the attack. maybe for a change, when things are nice and calm, they should just come out and call him out on what an asshole he is. put him on the defensive for a change, instead of always waiting for him to go off on the mom.

  38. Is it the Christmas spirit that has you all soft, Dan? MOM deserved one of your patented rants.

    You have to feel for MOM’s mom. She stays in a loveless marriage for three decades with an abusive, ugly, paranoid piece of shit. She does this in part to provide her two children with a family. Now she has two children with the gall to call HER a piece of shit for seeking a tiny bit of solace to keep her life bearable. Poor woman.

    The only thing you should discuss with your mother, MOM, is how best to go about getting a divorce now that you and your brother are old enough to handle it. Never indicate you are aware of her affair. She put up with unbelievable amounts of shit already. Enough is enough, help her get a life for herself.

  39. I guess I don’t see how wanting to bring a date along is a political statement just because you’re gay. Presumably everyone else invited is allowed to bring a date/spouse/whatever, or at least that the close family members are. Why should it be different just because BOTB is gay? He’s a *brother* not a random friend or distant relative. It still would be wrong to say they don’t want a not so close friend or distant relative to bring a same sex partner, but they can more easily just say ‘sorry, no partner, no attendance’.

    Personally, I think it’s a bit selfish on the sister’s part for not already addressing this in person one way or another. He’s the brother so unless he’s totally estranged from the rest of the family (which would make this an easier decision presumably, but maybe not) he’ll probably know whether this was a deliberate move to leave off his partner. If he’s not sure, then a tactful version of “I’d like to come, but can’t in good conscience pretend my partner doesn’t exist by leaving him behind”.

    The thing that bothers me is that people keep calling this a ‘political thing’. The only reason this is a ‘political thing’ is because other people are making it so by continuing to buy into the idea that it’s okay to deny someone just because they’re gay. This isn’t political, this is about having a partner that you don’t have to pretend doesn’t exist at society’s convenience.

  40. I went to my boyfriend’s sister’s wedding. It was one of the first trips we took together, and mom was not to happy. Neither was grandma. Luckily, sis and her new inlaws were more than happy to have me join the party. I even became an ad hoc usher and escorted grandma out of the church – much to her chagrin I’m sure.

    Five years later and mom still doesn’t acknowledge I exist. But, with every passing year, it becomes increasingly apparant WHO IT IS that has the problem. Not me, not my boyfriend, but only mom, who continues to shun…it’s obviously her loss.

  41. Like many others have said, MOM and his (her?) brother sound like they’ve inherited some of their father’s assholery. So, this is “killing” MOM’s brother. Boo-fucking-hoo. Now he feels that he shouldn’t have defended his mom from his dad when he called her a cheating whore? Does he not see how fucked up that is? “It’s wrong for dad to abuse mom, but only if she is accepting his abuse like a good Christian housewife, and not actually acting like an autonomous human being in need of love and affection.” So many things wrong with MOM in this letter. Snooping in his mother’s privacy because he was “bored”? Check. Feeling outrage at what he discovered that he wasn’t meant to? Check. Gossiping to other sibling about it before writing to Dan (or thinking for more than five minutes) to see what to do? Check. Understanding/defending his brother’s self-righteous indignation and possibly sharing in it himself? Check. Contemplating whether or not to possibly endanger his mom by telling a man he describes as a PSYCHO? Check. The whole fucking family needs a divorce and some serious therapy.

  42. Dan Savage is great, but he tends to default to the position he has here in answer to MOM: some strange on the side is okay, if you can find some rationalization for it. And humans can *always* find a rationalization for it.

    Yo, MOM, just a thought: maybe you missed the real show over the past few decades. Maybe you actually spent the last few decades watching your once-loving father become a bitter, angry man who treats your mom increasingly poorly because your mom was cheating on him all those years, and denying him the full love and and faithfulness she promised? Ever see what happens to a spouse who actually tries to make a marriage work, while the other spouse does as (s)he pleases? The devoted spouse usually ends up really, really pissed, especially if they are the ones who also pay the bills.

    And since kids are often unaware of their parents’ more complex personality traits until late teens or twenties, your primary memories of your dad’s behavior are formed in the later part of their marriage.

    My guess is your dad has a pretty good yarn to tell you about his marriage from years ago, and that you are just as clueless about that as you were about mom’s infidelity. Heck, he might even tell you “yeah, she has cheated on me so many times, with people I had to deal with after that, and I bore the humiliation each time, in order to give you the best home I could…I could not, however, always hide my anger at her for doing that to me…sorry you had to see that.” Now, wouldn’t *that* rock your world, just like those emails did?

    I am often suprised at how adult kids will view their parents’ marriage largely through the eyes of the parent they favor. That is, a momma’s boy will insist that his mom was largely blameless in a break-up or bad marriage, even though the dad has a pretty good story to explain how mom greatly contributed to the couple’s problems.

    In sum, every marriage is a mystery to outsiders, and kids are outsiders to their parents’ marriage. So STFU, keep your nose out of it, and do not presume to know your father’s story any more than you knew your mother’s.

  45. Yes, weddings are about the two people getting married, but it’s also about the blending of two families. That’s why they are called in-laws. To tell your sibling that they are welcome at the event but the partner or boyfriend/girlfriend isn’t is directly telling them that their relationship is second class at best. Would they exclude a straight sibling’s significant other? Yeah, didn’t think so.

    And as for drama, I was surprised as hell to get the invite to my youngest brother’s wedding. As the ‘Pink Sheep’ of the family, I was basically persona non grata. So I was shocked and thrilled to be asked to join in the festivities. It turns out my new sister-in law (Hi, Laura! Luv Ya!) insisted I be invited as I was family, cock-sucking be damned! The drama happened a little later when they asked if I wanted to be a Groomsman. Turns out my older brother, who was Best Man, got busted for running a Meth Lab on the farm he was renting from my sister. Suddenly, pole-smoking wasn’t such a bad thing after all. I guess it’s’ all perspective, isn’t it?

  46. @43

    so basically what you’re saying is that Dan should answer every letter with “I can’t rightly say what you should do until I get detailed accounts from every other person involved.”

    the dude wrote a letter, Dan gave advice based on the information given. Jesus Tittyfucking Christ, he’s not testifying under oath, he’s not part of any legally binding agreement.

  47. #34 nailed it. The drama started with the homophobic exclusion. Don’t blame the victim, blame the assholes who wish the victim didn’t exist.

  48. Merry Christmas, Dan. This is the year you earned the Nobel Peace Prize for “It Gets Better.” But you’ll have to settle for the love, admiration and gratitude of gay people all over the world and the people who love them.

    I think you might be a bit off with BOTB. In principle, it’s the bride’s day. If BOTB’s relationship would be a distraction, he should leave the boyfriend at home. That’s especially true if the sister has been supportive. If not, then maybe she deserves to be raked over the coals. But if I loved my sister, I wouldn’t try to make her feel bad on her special day. I’d give her a pass and fight this battle another time.

  49. I’m afraid my dirty mind won’t allow me to enjoy these wonderful cookies. When Dan says “snowball”, I definitely don’t think of holiday baked goods…

  50. Spot on advice to MOM. It constantly amazes me how people can read Dan’s column and still walk away with no concept of how the terms CPOS and GGG should be used.

    RE: BOBT

    Everyone who is saying that the wedding is about celebrating BOBT’s sister’s relationship is right, the wedding IS about celebrating her relationship. It is NOT about trying to reinforce her desire for her sibling to be something that he’s not. If his sister’s intention was really just to keep some family peace then she damn well should’ve talked to BOBT before she sent out the invites. Seeing as she didn’t, she more than deserves some direct conversation initiated by BOBT. Not dickish conversation but direct conversation.

  51. How do we know that mom wasn’t a CPOS from the outset of her relationship with Dad? How do we know that part of the reason Dad became an abusive asshole wasn’t because he was married to a lying, cheating whore? How do we know that Dad hasn’t had major medical issues all his life because of the torment he’s put up with from his lying, whorish wife? It’s easy to assume that mom put up with dad for unclear reasons of her own .. perhaps cultural .. but it’s just as easy to assume that dad has put up with a cheating whore wife for thirty years for similar reasons. Here’s the thing … none of us know what went on between mom and dad … none of us know which was the chicken and which was the egg … all we know is that they are in a dysfunctional relationship that has damaged them both.

  52. @53

    Well there’s the fact that dad’s anti-social, borderline psychotic behavior is possibly due to some “cultural” issues (orthodox something or other?) which, if that’s the case, would indicate that he was probably always a closet borderline asshole.

    Other than that you’re right. And also; how do we know that aliens aren’t involved? or the mafia? or mafia aliens? How do we know that dad didn’t travel back in time to initiate an affair with Elenore Roosevelt which promoted MOM’s mom to cheat in the first place? Maybe dad was the one who had neglected mom and dad’s physical problems are the direct result of his trying (unsuccessfully) to auto fellate? And how do cats fit into this? We know they must somehow……hmmmmmm.

  53. @28 – You’re right, BOTB’s sister isn’t having a wedding to support her brother’s relationship. But it goes without saying that, as someone who loves her brother, she should support him and his relationship regardless of whether she’s having a wedding or not — unless his boyfriend is some kind of abusive douche, which isn’t an issue raised by his letter.

    To the people insisting that it’s the bride’s day, you’re all absolutely right. Which means she shouldn’t worry at all about catering to the homophobic parents, since it’s not their day. If she personally has a problem with BOTB as well, however, then fuck her.

    As someone who’s been a bride, I would have been ashamed to exclude one of my sibling’s significant others because they happened to be the same sex.

  55. I must be emotional or something today… your advice to MOM teared me up a little (of note: my father’s not a psycho; my mom’s not cheating on him). MOM mom’s has my every sympathy.

    But, I’d add one piece to the advice. If the son/daughter saw the e-mail was open and could easily snoop, so too could the psycho father. I’d approach her, let her know it was all okay, but then warn her to be more careful. You don’t want the POS father reading these same e-mails and upping the ante towards violence.

    Merry Christmas all!

  58. Thanks for the cookie recipe. I’ll be whipping up a batch tomorrow. Even though I didn’t know her, I’ll send a little smile your mom’s way and thank her for making such a good son.

  59. The kids should encourage their mom to divorce their asshole dad. if she knew they’d stick with her, she might have the courage to leave this abusive relationship.

    How dare they question HER instead of their father. If they loved their mother they’d support anything that makes her happy.

  60. BOTB – As a bride, I can’t imagine not inviting my brother’s two-year SO. Male or female. Unless of course, it was a tiny wedding. I would call her, and put the feelers out, saying that you’d really like to bring your man. If you get the sense that she’s trying to arrange a drama-free wedding (and I would seriously hope that your family is mature enough not to throw a hissy fit because you bring your boyfriend), tell her that as you would love to be there to support her and her husband, you would also appreciate some support for your relationship. If she still doesn’t budge, well, I would say then that I wouldn’t go, and I wouldn’t send a gift.

    And MOM is the reason I don’t want children. You dedicate your entire life to raising a human being or several, make serious sacrifices, and then they stand in judgment of your decisions because you do something they can’t comprehend.

  62. As a straight woman, I have to say that the # of people who say that BOTB is making a “statement# is sickening. I’m sure that other family members were invited with their spouses. Cousins were most likely given a plus 1. He was excluded because he is gay. Spot on Dan! You are my hero! Happy holidays to all.

  63. Homophobia aside (and that is what it is, not “political”), not giving someone a +1 on a wedding invite is just tacky.

    Also, thanks for the cookie recipe Dan. Sorry that it’s a painful time of year, but it’s beautiful that you can remember your mother (who sounds like she was a wonderful woman) through baking and sharing.

  66. Thanks for the cookie recipe, Dan. since I’m diabetic, I’m going to give it a whirl with Splenda. I’ll let you know how they turn out.
    Cool Yule Y’all

  67. I can’t refrain from commenting on the comments about BOTB. The extreme rudeness here is coming from BOTB’s sister, who had the gall to send him an invitation that excludes his significant other. Since she did that, Dan’s advice is absolutely right. BOTB should push the issue and refuse to come unless his boyfriend also comes and his family agrees to treat the boyfriend with respect. GROW UP, PEOPLE!!! A wedding is NOT supposed to be Bridezilla’s perfect day. It’s a celebration of relationships–Bridezilla’s included. As a gay man, my own policy has always been this: If I can’t get married, I support no one else’s right to marry. The only exceptions I make are for people who I know support gay marriage in general and who support my relationship in particular.

  68. Why is bad behavior so frequently attributed to ‘cultural issues’? I can’t find Assholvania on the map so I’m not exactly sure where this culture of brutish louts is. Bad behavior is due almost exclusively to personal assholism rather than cultural assholism….

  69. i agree with 69 . . . hehe . . .

    saying a wedding is all about the bride is like saying that Christmas is all about buying and receiving presents. it’s just bullshit consumerism to make people feel that if they’re not spending enough money, they’re not doing it right.

  70. Spot on advice all around. MOM snooped on his mom’s e-mail “to be an asshole out of boredom,” then expects people to sympathize with his “dilemma” of how to confront her with what he found? & told his older brother about it, even though he likely knew it would make him feel betrayed — & even though it was NONE OF HIS FUCKING BUSINESS to begin with? The advice he really needs is “don’t do something that you know from the start is an asshole thing to do.”

    Can’t believe anyone has stepped in to defend the bride on the grounds that weddings are “the bride’s day” or “about the couple, not you” or whatever. If the couple wants to have an event that’s all about them, they should can host a swanky party & invite all their most glamorous friends. Or go on a nice weekend trip & not invite anyone else at all. When you ask someone to be a GUEST at your wedding, you’re taking on the responsibility of making them comfortable, feeding them well, & honoring their place in your life. In other words, being a good host. The purpose of a wedding isn’t to have a captive audience for your perfectly choreographed Barbie & Ken Show. And the whole day isn’t “all about” just one couple. If that’s your attitude to your guests, please elope.

  71. I think that BOTB’s situation is pretty straight-forward. His sister wants him at the wedding, just minus his gayness. Regrettably (for her), much like his liver, his orientation is not something she can just have him remove for the day.
    If she wants him there, she has to take all of him. If she can’t or won’t, then she should simply not invite him, and choose to live with the consequences of such a decision.

  72. I agree with 10 31 et al. Your sister’s wedding isn’t the time to make a political statement or air dirty family laundry. It’s about supporting your sister whom you (presumably) love. If your sister would rather not have the drama that bringing your bf would create on HER day then you should respect that. I think you should inquire and figure out if bringing your fella is acceptable, but that you should respect whatever your sister decides. If i was getting married and my brother was dating a gal with Tourette syndrome who would undoubtedly cause i disturbance at my wedding i think it is perfect acceptable to not invite that person.

  73. Dear Dan,

    Thanks for sharing your mom’s cookie recipe. You’re a real sweetheart for keeping the tradition.

    Your missing your mom for some reason made me think of what you say about all relationships coming to an end, until one doesn’t. But all relationships do come to an end, sadly. As your relationship with your mom came to an end, sadly. The sorrow we feel when such relationships end is the price we pay for the joy of knowing and loving others.

    Wishing you much joy.

  74. @74

    If she’d rather not have the drama that BOTB’s life brings, then she’d better not have him at the wedding, so Dan’s solution works for everyone.

    Also, your Tourette’s comment proves that you are a gigantic asshole. Go fuck yourself.

  76. @74: “If i was getting married and my brother was dating a gal with Tourette syndrome who would undoubtedly cause i disturbance at my wedding i think it is perfect acceptable to not invite that person.”

    You are not a very nice person.

    Hm, where else would your brother’s girlfriend not be invited? After all, there are so many lovely family occasions that should not be disturbed by the uncomfortable presence of the person your brother loves. Christmas… Thanksgiving… your parents’ 50th anniversary dinner… And really, there are so many different ways that people can be disruptive. Their sexual orientation. Their disabilities. Their colour. Their religion. Their politics. Really, why should your family occasions have to be disrupted by the presence of anyone who would in any way make you or someone else there a bit uncomfortable?

    Family occasions are for family – all members, which includes significant others. No matter how uncomfortable they might make someone feel.*

    *(Okay, I’d give a pass on inviting Uncle Badtouch, even if he is out on parole and on his meds. But then, there’s a difference between “makes me uncomfortable” and “registered sex offender”.)

  78. Weddings aren’t perfect days. The people that want them perfect get upset about the place settings or the flower arrangement that didn’t come out “perfect”.

    Tourette’s – are you shitting me? The person with Tourette’s knows they have it. They’ve been excluded from stuff forever. Maybe you should accept them on that day of love, family, community, etc. Not all tourette’s is screaming obscenities, but I do think it would be kind of humorous to hear the occasional “blow job” screamed out during the vows. Someplace in between honor and obey.

    Maybe BOTB’s sister will get her second wedding right 🙂

  79. @80: “I do think it would be kind of humorous to hear the occasional “blow job” screamed out during the vows”

    I wanted the words “blow job” to be in the vows, but my wife vetoed it.

  80. I think we’ve stumbled on to the genesis of the origins of homosexuality in Dan. His mother had him eating “chocolate sno balls” ever since he was a young boy! My god, Dan, how did you ever miss this. I’ve seen pictures of your boyfriend and his balls, i’m quite sure, are not chocolate, but the sno balling that goes on in the Savage household is rampant I’d suspect. So, Dan, you can consider the next sentence to officially be a question for your next SLOG. Would eating Dan’s chocolate sno-balls make me gay?

  81. 74 is a glaring illustration of exactly what’s wrong with anyone defending BOTB’s sister. Yes, it’s her wedding day, and no, that doesn’t grant her impunity to treat certain members of her family like they’re something to be ashamed of. If she can’t fully accept her brother, she shouldn’t have invited him to the wedding at all.

  82. @54: Nailed it.

    MOM, you’re a douche. Fuck you for calling your mom a CPOS; you clearly have no idea how this works. Confront your *brother*, and support your mother.

    And by that, I mean, it extends to never ever letting her live alone with your PSYCHO DAD. I’m assuming you still live with them, and when you get the financial wherewithal to move out, take your mom with you. Seriously. You owe that to her.

  83. To BOTB: She’s your only sibling so I think you should be there. I think Dan is right and you should tell her you’d like to bring your boyfriend, at least to the ceremony and reception. You say the family doesn’t support your gayness, so I take that to mean your sister as well. But does that mean she is openly opposed to it or just a sad sack that won’t speak up for you to the rest of the family? This would be the time to find out exactly where she stands.

    If it turns out she is just like your mom, well, maybe you should only go to the wedding ceremony but none of the other surrounding festivities (assuming the wedding is within comfortable driving distance and it doesn’t place a financial burden for you to do so). Buy a nice, tasteful gift, show up, smile and leave. No one can bitch at you later that you didn’t attend. Sure, you can try to reason with your sister, but if she is stupid and homophobic or just a scaredy-cat to stand up to the rest of the family, there isn’t much point in making it all a drama. Just let her know firmly that she is offending you, but you will be civil during “her day” (I really hate that phrase). Showing up,smiling grimly and then leaving is a statement, but no one can accuse you of ruining the wedding because you didn’t attend.

    Be careful, cause emotions are always running hot at family events like weddings and it could easily become a huge family blow-up if you let it get to you. Don’t let them put you in a position that you get blamed.

  85. Great advice, and those cookies sound awesome. My mom makes a vanilla version of those cookies (only she calls them Russian Tea Cakes), and a chocolate version sounds absolutely delicious!

  86. @78 A marriage ceremony is (hopefully) a once in a lifetime event. It is about the people having the wedding. It isn’t Christmas which occurs every year and is a religious observance. Thanksgiving again happens every year and isn’t about honoring individuals. That is the big difference. The parent’s 50th wedding anniversary would be another good time to leave the bf at home if it’s going to cause a problem because it’s a day to honor individuals. The wedding is also a day to respect the wishes of those getting married. If they want you to wear green you wear green even if wearing green makes you uncomfortable. You don’t skip your sibling’s wedding because they would rather not have drama on their special day. That makes you an asshole. The bigger person would have a conversation asking for the bf to be able come and respect the decision because not everything is about you.

  87. @83 not wanting your mother to freak out and have a shouting match with your sibling on your wedding day isn’t treating anybody with any disrespect or acting ashamed of them. It is about enjoying your wedding day which is totally selfish and totally justified.

  88. @85: Expanding on your advice, I say bring the boyfriend to the ceremony, but skip the reception.

    Meanwhile, I’ve NEVER been invited to a wedding, graduation, etc. where there wasn’t a +1 included with the invitation. To not give that option is simply uncouth.

  89. @76 name-calling isn’t nice and ad hominem attacks are boorish. If you can’t argue the merits of my statement don’t argue at all…please.

  90. Take your boyfriend to the wedding BOTB. It won’t be you creating the drama, it will be your mother, if she chooses to do so. Hopefully she will recognize that her daughter’s wedding is neither the time nor the place but all you can do is not buy into it.

  91. Merry Christmas to you Dan.

    #74: Bless your heart. You should maybe look up the word karma in a dictionary. It will help you understand things later.

  92. @19 Uh, I did find out one of my parents was cheating. Yes, it was upsetting because I put that parent on a pedestal, but realizing that person was human brought me closer to my parents. Luckily the parent that was cheated on was able to see the same thing. They are now closer and more open than I’ve ever seen them.

    Parents are not asexual nor perfect. Remember that.

  93. To kmonkey (#10),

    Being gay is not a lifestyle nor a political issue; rather, being gay is not a choice and further a human issue. To sacrifice one’s dignity for the sake of someone else’s comfort is inhuman. He should never have to sacrifice his dignity for the purpose of comforting his sister and the rest of his family, because that is outright condescending to him. If I were the brother, I would follow Dan’s advice spot on and give the sister a choice between him or homophobia.

  94. To #10,

    Being gay is not a lifestyle nor a political issue; rather, being gay is not a choice and further a human issue. To sacrifice one’s dignity for the sake of someone else’s comfort is inhuman. He should never have to sacrifice his dignity for the purpose of comforting his sister and the rest of his family, because that is outright condescending to him. If I were the brother, I would follow Dan’s advice spot on and give the sister a choice between him or homophobia.

  95. #27 – To put this into perspective, BOTB’s partner is being taken hostage by BOTB’s family, and it’s a dick move by the sister to not invite BOTB’s partner…what kind of asshole ignores someone’s partner like that as if he is scum because someone else’s thoughts about him and homosexuality in general is more superior? There is never, ever a valid reason to further homophobia, not even for one day, not even at someone’s wedding.

  96. Flounder: agree that one should respect the wishes of the couple, as much as is reasaonble, on their special day. But what if the *only* difference stated here was that BOTB was NOT gay…? If he had a girlfriend for two plus years, I guarantee she wouldn’t want to sit at home while her SO was at a wedding. There comes a point where a certain level of commitment is assumed between a couple of adults, & at that point it’s reasonable to expect them to be included on invitations to major events within a family.

    BOTB hasn’t *talked to* his sister about this, which is what I think he should do. Brides get a lot of pressure – their own expectations, those of their family, the groom’s family, their mother’s reliving their own “special day” through their daughter; ugh. BOTB, find a moment in which your sis *isn’t* looking like she wants to hurl a wedding planner out of a window, & talk to her about things. Were I you, I’d want my sweetie there, but not everyone gets what they want. Sometimes ya gotta play politics. Me, I wouldn’t go w/out my boyfriend/girlfriend.

    Good luck BOTB..& Flounder, regardless of what well may have been meant, comparing a gay relationship to one where a partner has Tourette’s was graceless at least. :/ Someone sitting there, quietly holding hands w/ someone should not cause the same potential for upset & unease as someone who can’t control shouting outbursts.

  97. I come a very similar family dynamic. My father was a controlling piece of shit, handgun in your face wielding dick, (i was the victim of the gun thing when i was 14 and told him i was gay ), rage-oholic asshole. I believe that my parents’ marriage was doomed from the onset: when my mom got knocked with me, she finally put her foot down and decided to NOT have another backroom abortion. Unlike the TWO prior abortions he forced her to have, (this was the mid-60’s, an era of little or no women’s rights.)

    So to “MOM”, i would think you’d want your mother a little piece of happiness. I WISH my mom my had had an affair, fling or something during her marriage, maybe that would have made her life with my father a tiny bit more tolerable. I even broached the subject with her when i was teenager, “screw dad, go out and have some fun!” But alas, because of her generational upbringing she never did and for that same reason she never divorced him. And now, my dad is dead, and she’s a broken, depressed lonely older lady.

    On a happier note, Dan thank you for initiating the “It Gets Better” campaign! As all of us on this blog know, it has received major news coverage on all the various media outlets. And even if it saves just ONE kid’s life, what you and Terry started was well worth it million times over. Kudos to both of you. Dan you are my personal hero

    Have a Merry Christmas to you, Terry and the kid.

    Scrufff

  98. Flounder, not everything is about an offended gay man, but if members of a family can’t accept him for who he is and who he loves, then they don’t deserve his company. Asking someone to wear green and forbidding someone from bringing the person they plan on spending the rest of their life with are not even close to the same thing. Your comparisons on the issue speak to a lack of understanding of what this family is asking. The sister in question may be getting married, but it’s not just her day. It’s her husband’s day, too. She is entitled to a drama-free day, but he is entitled to bring the person he shares his life with to family events. How would you feel if someone asked you not to bring your significant other because of his or her gender? And by BOTB not bringing his SO he tacitly agrees that his relationship is not on the same level as the rest of the family’s relationships.

    I understand that weddings can be a huge day for a lot of women, but you don’t get to do whatever you want for your wedding without consequence. If she makes the decision that she doesn’t want to include a huge part of her brother’s life, then she should be prepared to not include her brother in her life.

  99. @88: “@78 A marriage ceremony is (hopefully) a once in a lifetime event. It is about the people having the wedding.”

    This is something we will have to disagree on. I’ve had two marriage ceremonies. Both were not (solely) about me and my wife; they were about our families, and the new family that we were forming together. This man is a part of his sister’s family; his partner is a part of his. I believe they both have a place in a celebration focused on family.

    “You don’t skip your sibling’s wedding because they would rather not have drama on their special day. That makes you an asshole.”

    I could equally say “you don’t refuse to allow your own brother to bring a guest to your wedding because you would rather not have drama.” Really, where would the drama be coming from? From the brother and his boyfriend? All they want is to attend the ceremony just like every other member of the family. All they are asking for is to be treated exactly the same as everyone else. The only drama I could see would be in someone refusing to do so.

  100. @91 I didn’t argue, I called you an asshole. I stand by that. That isn’t nice, you’re right. Tell you what, you don’t have to invite me to your wedding.

  101. @ 33 — I would love to see Miss Manners’ response to this. Actually, I’ve thought for some time that it would be fun for a bunch of advice columnists to share letters and then each write an independent response. It would be interesting to compare responses from Dan, Miss Manners, Dear Abby, Margo Howard, Prudie, and more to the same letters.

  102. @101 Spot on. People who are saying here that weddings are just about the bride and groom are full of shit and have never planned a wedding. It is always always always about family and everyone makes sacrifices to get everyone there and have a good time w/o fighting.

    On a side note, this is het privilege speaking, but I cannot imagine a sibling not inviting my boyfriend to his/her wedding as my guest. How ruthlessly cold.

  103. @92 Exactly! BotB isn’t talking about bringing drama to the wedding, he’s talking about bringing his significant other!

    If it ends up that the invitation isn’t properly extended, BotB should not attend but a gift should be sent bearing only the name of BotB’s man.

  104. Sorry Dan, wrong advice to BOB. One never brings uninvited guests to a wedding, and one certainly does not pose ultimata to the bride or groom. BOB was invited, and he should go the way he was invited, alone. My advice would apply no matter the sex of the uninvitee (or race, age, or marital status for that matter).

    Maybe BOB lives in a state where he will marry his partner someday, whereupon he can invite whomever the hell he wants. Until then, he has no right to dictate the guest list.

  105. Respecting someones big day is not the same as condoning discrimination. We cannot build a better world for ourselves if we allow flat out wrong behaviour to pass because the day is ‘special’. Justice matters, or it doesnt. If justice matters, then any blatant act of discrimination should not be given a gate pass, wedding or no.
    I am straight, with a very homophobic mother. there is no way on earth I would consider her feelings and not invite same sex partners to my wedding. If she has an issue, she stays at home.

  106. Re: BOTB. Yes, it is the sister’s wedding day. But those of you suggesting it is okay to leave the boyfriend at home to avoid drama, you’re wrong. You are blaming the victim.

    If BOTB brings his boyfriend, and his mom starts up some drama, who’s fault is that? Mom’s fault, of course. Mom should keep a civil tongue in her mouth for her daughter’s wedding, even if she is a homophobic shrew and can’t stand BOTB’s boyfriend. If she is incapable of doing so, then Mom is the one that shouldn’t be invited.

    I’m 100% with Dan. Politely have a conversation with the sister now. Gently let her know that you both go, or neither of you go. You get all of me or none of me, not a fake me without my other half. If she can’t deal with that, send her your regrets and don’t go.

    BOTB would only be at fault for any drama if he shows up with the boyfriend without telling sister ahead of time. She may have simply never thought of it much before. She may rightfully assume that BOTB won’t bring the boyfriend. So he does at least owe her a phone call/email to clarify his intentions. Then she must decide where she stands.

  107. Re BOBT: I feel a few writers here have not taken their blinders off. It’s as though mom’s homophobia is seen as immutable while the brother’s sexual orientation is somehow easily put aside for a day. It’s the reverse! Lets not put all the responsibility for the “drama-control” on the brother…

    A mother is demeaning her own son and expects his sister to go along with it. Blame her. Have her grow up.

  108. Re BOBT: I feel a few writers here have not taken their blinders off. It’s as though mom’s homophobia is seen as immutable while the brother’s sexual orientation is somehow easily put aside for a day. It’s the reverse! Lets not put all the responsibility for the “drama-control” on the brother…

    A mother is demeaning her own son and expects his sister to go along with it. Blame her. Have her grow up.

  109. My sympathies to BOTB. It’s kinda funny. My family (cousins and such) were trying to get me to bring my “boyfriend” to their weddings before I even had a boyfriend.

    My question is, does the wedding invitation say “BOTB and Guest”? If so, than his boyfriend is implicitly invited and it is no one’s business whether or not he brings him. If the invitation is to BOTB only, then he should probably ask his sister before adding another guest to the guestlist.

    Either way, if BOTB and his boyfriend both go, and someone starts drama, it is technically the fault of the dramatist. How the rest of the family will read the situation is anybody’s guess.

    Dan is right that whatever discussion is necessary should happen now, not close to the wedding.

  110. My sympathies to BOTB. It’s kinda funny. My family (cousins and such) were trying to get me to bring my “boyfriend” to their weddings before I even had a boyfriend.

    My question is, does the wedding invitation say “BOTB and Guest”? If so, than his boyfriend is implicitly invited and it is no one’s business whether or not he brings him. If the invitation is to BOTB only, then he should probably ask his sister before adding another guest to the guestlist.

    Either way, if BOTB and his boyfriend both go, and someone starts drama, it is technically the fault of the dramatist. How the rest of the family will read the situation is anybody’s guess.

    Dan is right that whatever discussion is necessary should happen now, not close to the wedding.

  111. @59: Did you substitute oil for butter? Did you fail to let the cookie sheets cool down between batches? Either of those will cause the balls to lose their shape. Bet they tasted good, though.

  112. BOTB doesn’t want to bring “drama”–an over-used vague word that should get retired–to his sister’s wedding. Nor does he want to bring a “+1,” a phrase which suggests a more casual date. This is his boyfriend of two years. It may well be his fiance and later his husband, a member of the bride’s extended family.

    And yes, family is what weddings are about, not merely the mother of the bride’s intolerances or the bride’s desire to control everyone under the excuse of “it’s *her* day.”

    Families include that creepy cousin who probably has Asperger’s, this hideous aunt, the flatulant grandfather who makes distasteful jokes, the uncle who got arrested for a DUI, and the teenage cousin going through a goth phase who shows up dressed like the spider queen. The bride doesn’t exclude these “embarrassments” because of their potential for “drama.”

    BOTB should talk to his sister as civilly as possible before issuing the ultimatum, but yes, he needs to do it.

    As a whole lot of feminists said in the 1970s, the personal *is* the political.

    And in the long run, he may well only see his bigoted mother and spineless sister a few times a year, but he’s going to want to continue a relationship with his boyfriend, who may not appreciate being sacrificed on the alter of “the bride’s day” to appease a bigoted, blackmailing bully.

    The boyfriend’s name should be on the invitation envelope itself, not even as a +1.

  113. I’m with @4: Great column once again—and I can’t wait to try out your Mom’s Christmas Snowball Cookies! Thanks, Dan!

    Merry Christmas and Happy 2011!

  114. BotB needs to talk to his sister, calmly, before issuing any sort of ultimatum. Previous commenters assume that everyone else who has been invited to the wedding was invited with a guest, when the letter does not state that at all. Perhaps nobody was invited with a guest (though that would be strange, I have gone to weddings where the bride and groom had a very small budget and therefore nobody was invited with guests). I have also been to a wedding where none of the invitations were addressed to “Name and Guest”, but the bride and groom assumed that everybody knew that they could bring a guest. Either one of these things could be happening, and in either case, it would not be discrimination at all. BotB won’t know if he doesn’t bring it up, but he shouldn’t start by assuming that it’s a deliberate slight.

  117. I believe Miss Manners would state that instead of using the words “and guest” on the invitation, the bride, if she wishes to invite a long-term partner of an unmarried person, should bother to find out the name of the partner and write *that* on the invitation.
    I also believe that Miss Manners has stated that a religious ceremony in a church is in a public place, and therefore no-one can be ‘disinvited’ from attending the wedding ceremony. I like, therefore, the suggestion that both BOTB and his partner attend the ceremony, smiling grimly, and not the reception. To be faultlessly correct, they should send the gift to the brides’ parents’ house before the wedding.

  118. BOTB doesn’t seem to have problems in the manners department: his sister does. It’s not a matter of making a political stand at all – it’s about mutual respect between family members who are supposed to love and support one another. Apart from the obvious fact that it’s unheard of not to offer a +1 to immediate family, she is also pointedly insulting BOTB’s SO.

    As a straight girl, I can’t know exactly how BOTB’s bf must feel about all of this….but if it were me, I would have zero interest in attending my boyfriend’s sister’s wedding after she had deliberately snubbed me like that. I’d support my BF if he still chose to go – it’s his only sister, after all. But it’s seriously rude of her not to invite him.

    …and it *was* deliberate – make no mistake – unless there will only be a handful of people there, there’s no way she wasn’t making a Statement of her own when she chose not to extend a plus one to her own brother, and she apparently doesn’t have a problem with offending his BF in the process. She should be ashamed of herself on HER DAY.

    What does HER DAY mean, anyway? One day in your life when you’re allowed to be a selfish, inconsiderate twit? I seriously doubt there would be a shouting match or people hurling canapes across the room at each other, just because her brother walks in with his BF. If she won’t risk the possibility of even a little awkwardness, then she obviously isn’t a very loving person. At least not where her brother is concerned.

  119. I LOVE you, Dan! Whenever I tell anyone about your column, I say, “So, this week, theloveofmylifeDanSavage said…” etc. Yep, all 1 word. That said, thank you for telling MOM what he needed to hear (& I’m quite sure MOM is a “he”). You could’ve heaped much more verbal abuse on him, tho, cuz for someone (& his brother) who can’t WAIT to throw the CPOS label around, he didn’t seem to have ANY CLUE about how much of a huge POS he himself is. Hell, his mother can come live at my house-she deserves better than the POS Twins. @ 70: my family is Romanian/Greek (I grew up Eastern Orthodox Catholic)& I have no problem saying that MOM’s family may be also,or other E. European,Chaldean,Turkish,Muslim.If you were one of these cultures, you would know just how much the male is worshiped (I’ve got some fabulous paternal-grandparent stories for you). Different cultures DO have different ideals; ignoring that & pretending they don’t is wrong. List of peeps for ME to worship & adore: #3,5,7,12,16-18,29,30(when u ended w/’shaddup etc’I wanted to reach thru the screen & kiss u,37-39,42,46,52,54-57,61,62(excellent)68,72,84,91,99. Have a great holiday to all.

  121. To MOM: what part of ‘it’s none of your business’ didn’t you understand?

    To BOTB: It sounds like your sister is a real bitch. To intentionally not invite your long-term boyfriend is unbelievably rude. There is no way she’d have done that if you were dating a woman; just no way. This is either homophobia or it’s cowardice, because she doesn’t want to deal with your parents’ issues. I don’t know why you’d want a relationship with this woman, but if you do, then Dan was right, you have to call her on it. Otherwise, she and the rest of your family will assume that it’s okay to treat you like this permanently. And no, you aren’t the one making the drama–she is.

  122. Printing column…off to bake with kids. It is a Great recipe for Christmas in Dar es Salaam. Thanks.

    Power allowing, I hope to add Mama Savage’s Snowballs to the celebratory baking for the crowd we’re spending the big day with.

    Merry Christmas Dan. Wishing you and yours a very merry holiday.

  123. RE BOTB, I agree with the substance of Dan’s advice if not the tone. He should talk to his sister, remaining firm but polite, not militant.

    Another thing to consider is the “Golden Rule” (as in he who has the gold makes the rules). If mom is footing the bill for the ceremony, inviting her brother’s SO may come with some serious consequences.

  124. “Homophobia aside (and that is what it is, not “political”), not giving someone a +1 on a wedding invite is just tacky.”

    No, “+1” or “and guest” are tacky! They are much worse than tacky. Only tacky/trashy people invite someone to something as personal as a wedding when they don’t even know their names and can’t be bothered to find out. That means if you know cousin Ethel has a SO and you would like to include him/her you call to get their name (and address if it is different from cousin Ethel’s) and you invite them by name. And this tacky new custom also makes some single people (especially women) feel like they need to find a date, preferably one with a suit and a lot a patience for boring events. It’s a wedding, not a fucking prom! It’s not a celebration for couplehood, except for the couple getting married. It’s not Valentine’s Day. You shouldn’t need a date! You go, you see friends and family, you meet the new family, you dance the godawful electric slide with the old lady/geezer. And you get the hell out of there as soon as you can.

    This is her wedding, and she can be a homophobic cunt if she wants to. It’s not his place to dictate the guestlist, even if she is tacky enough to invite “+1″s for the straights but not him. If the brother doesn’t like it, all he has to do is say he’s busy or can’t make it. If she is ashamed of him, she probably didn’t even want him there and just invited him out of obligation. If she wants to know what he’s busy with, he can say he had plans to spend the day with someone who loved him and wasn’t ashamed of him, that being his significant other and not his blood relatives. And if she decides she wants him and the SO at HER wedding, he should make damn sure that Mom and everyone else will try to make the SO feel damn welcome because they may have already offended him.

    And yes, homophobia is political! Don’t you ever read or watch the news? But making a family power play with ultimatums about someone else’s event is not just rude, it’s pathetic. It’s pathetic to make demands to be loved and respected by your own damn family. Tell them to fuck off. You’re better off without them.

  126. The whole “it’s the bride’s day” thing is bullshit and I am sick and tired of brides spouting that off as an excuse to act like spoiled 5-year olds. A marriage, at it’s core, is about bringing TWO people together, so it’s about the groom too, but that’s not what is at issue here. None of us know sister’s real intentions, but at the end of the day, it is WRONG to disenfranchise her own BROTHER’s relationship for whatever reason: trying to keep the peace between mom and brother, to make her guests focus only on her, etc. I wouldn’t have dared to ask someone not to bring their SO to my wedding because someone ELSE has a problem with it. I dont care if its my own mom or whoever. If mom and brother respect the sister enough, they can attend the wedding together, boyfriend at BOBT’s side, and be grown ups about it and not get into drama for ONE DAY out of two years. Gee, what a concept. Its not like this relationship is news to anyone in the family.

    Drama sometimes happens at weddings no matter who is or isn’t invited, and in truth, the bride and groom are usually too busy with the bustle day to notice it. Who knows, BOBT could bring his boyfriend, and a fight between some straight family members could break out!

    I wonder if mom offered to address all the invites (as my own mother offered) and thus used that as a way to prevent boyfriend from coming. Maybe sister had thought boyfriend was on the guest list all along but mom sabotaged it?

    If he talks to her, and she tries to deny boyfriend’s attendance, I agree with Dan. It’s either both of them or neither. BOBT doesn’t have a problem, the asshats in his family who cannot accept his loving relationship with another human being have the problem.

    If the sister doesn’t want drama at her wedding, she should choose the courthouse. Thats the only way to 99% guarantee no drama at her wedding.

  127. Dammit Dan! Now you’ve got me missing my mom again, and It’s been 2 1/2 years.

    Shortly after my mom died, I lost my pitt/mastiff I’d raised from 8 weeks old. He had just turned 10. Losing him was every bit as hard as losing my mom. As I said to my friends, “My mom never slept with me. But then, my dog never gave me any money”.

    Try to not talk about dogs for the next few months, okay?

    Merry Ho Ho Everyone!

  128. Oh yeah! I forgot. Has anyone considered the possibility that MOM’s mom left her email available ON PURPOSE? Her motivation could be multi-fold She may want to let MOM & Bro know that she’s taking control of her life and might hope for their support.

    Unfortunately, we/they may never know because I still agree with Dan’s advice. Don’t say anything. (At least until you get a second “clue”.)

    Cheers!

  130. Weddings are expensive!!! We couldn’t afford to have all our family and friends attend our wedding if all our single friends that weren’t in long-term relationships brought a +1. The thing is, we called all of our single friends and explained that in order for us to have everyone that was special and important to us there, there will be no +1’s prior to sending out the invites so they knew exactly what was going on and why. People in long term relationships (at least six months long) got to bring their BF/GF because we knew who the hell their BF’s and GF’s were and were able to invite them by name. We didn’t want strangers at our wedding. And you know what, all of our single friends were 100% supportive and understanding, especially since we weren’t going to humiliate them by parading them in front of everyone with the hideous tossing of the bouquet and garter.

    That said, sis really should have invited BOTB’s boyfriend. He needs to have a clear conversation with her saying that he really wants to be there in love and support on this major milestone in his only siblings life, but that he would also like to bring his BF. He needs to find out exactly why he wasn’t invited. Just bringing the BF will cause nothing but trouble and make him the bad guy.

    Did their parents threaten to not come to the wedding if he attends with his BF? If this is the case, maybe sis just wanted so badly for her all three of her direct relatives to be there that she capitulated. It is horrible to not have your parents attend your wedding. It would put her in a horrible position to make her choose between her brother and her parents, I know some of the readers support this position, but it’s not as easy as that. A daughter can love her bigoted parents, who she can’t change, and her gay brother equally. Some would say that this is the time for her to make a stand, but when it comes down to it, all she may really want is her family to be there.

    Did they threaten to not pay for it if they did not have control of the guest list? This is a horrible thing that some parents do.

    Is she worried that her parents will go to the wedding but be so immature as to act all pissy or otherwise crate an uncomfortable environment at her wedding that she thought it best to avoid the situation all together by not inviting his boyfriend?

    Or is the issue truly with her, that she is uncomfortable seeing her brother with his boyfriend.

    If it’s one of the first two reasons, he may want to think about going at least to the ceremony as she clearly wants him there, but is caught in the precarious position of trying to make everyone happy and doing the best she can due to the circumstances to see that she can get everyone that’s important to her to be there. She should of, however, given her brother a heads up about these circumstances before the invites went out. If it’s the third reason, tell her that there is no such thing as a drama-free wedding and tell her parents to suck it up and please for the sake of her and the groom to behave like adults, as their son is bringing his boyfriend or he won’t come, if she really wants him there. If it’s the latter reason, fuck her, don’t go.

  131. Weddings are expensive!!! We couldn’t afford to have all our family and friends attend our wedding if all our single friends that weren’t in long-term relationships brought a +1. The thing is, we called all of our single friends and explained that in order for us to have everyone that was special and important to us there, there will be no +1’s prior to sending out the invites so they knew exactly what was going on and why. People in long term relationships (at least six months long) got to bring their BF/GF because we knew who the hell their BF’s and GF’s were and were able to invite them by name. We didn’t want strangers at our wedding. And you know what, all of our single friends were 100% supportive and understanding, especially since we weren’t going to humiliate them by parading them in front of everyone with the hideous tossing of the bouquet and garter.

    That said, sis really should have invited BOTB’s boyfriend. He needs to have a clear conversation with her saying that he really wants to be there in love and support on this major milestone in his only siblings life, but that he would also like to bring his BF. He needs to find out exactly why he wasn’t invited. Just bringing the BF will cause nothing but trouble and make him the bad guy.

    Did their parents threaten to not come to the wedding if he attends with his BF? If this is the case, maybe sis just wanted so badly for her all three of her direct relatives to be there that she capitulated. It is horrible to not have your parents attend your wedding. It would put her in a horrible position to make her choose between her brother and her parents, I know some of the readers support this position, but it’s not as easy as that. A daughter can love her bigoted parents, who she can’t change, and her gay brother equally. Some would say that this is the time for her to make a stand, but when it comes down to it, all she may really want is her family to be there.

    Did they threaten to not pay for it if they did not have control of the guest list? This is a horrible thing that some parents do.

    Is she worried that her parents will go to the wedding but be so immature as to act all pissy or otherwise crate an uncomfortable environment at her wedding that she thought it best to avoid the situation all together by not inviting his boyfriend?

    Or is the issue truly with her, that she is uncomfortable seeing her brother with his boyfriend.

    If it’s one of the first two reasons, he may want to think about going at least to the ceremony as she clearly wants him there, but is caught in the precarious position of trying to make everyone happy and doing the best she can due to the circumstances to see that she can get everyone that’s important to her to be there. She should of, however, given her brother a heads up about these circumstances before the invites went out. If it’s the third reason, tell her that there is no such thing as a drama-free wedding and tell her parents to suck it up and please for the sake of her and the groom to behave like adults, as their son is bringing his boyfriend or he won’t come, if she really wants him there. If it’s the latter reason, fuck her, don’t go.

  132. Seriously, ema629, why did you feel the need to ask your GUESTS if they were OK with not getting +1 invitations. If you did not know their current relationship status or the name or seriousness of their bf/gf, you could have just sent the invite to the single person only. If they called up and said they had an SO you didn’t know about blah blah blah, can they bring them, then explain your budget constraints, or just say there is no more room at the hall, sorry if they can’t make it, or invite the person if you felt like it. You didn’t owe them any explanation for not inviting a stranger to your wedding. You thought you were being polite and considerate, and then you started applying all these arbitrary criteria about judging the worthiness of their relationships with strangers to attend your wedding, like if they were older than 6 months. That was really rude! I doubt your friends said anything, but I’m sure some were offended.

  133. This letter and Thursday’s over at Carolyn Hax are roughly the same situation – adult children overly invested in their parents’ marriages. You know who is to blame for problems in your parents’ marriages, kids? Both of them (maybe not in equal amounts, but still – both of them). You know whose business it is? Theirs. Your job as an adult is not to figure out who the bad guy is, but to come to some adult relationships with both of these flawed people who probably love you, and whom you probably love. Putting energy into determining blame is not only useless and counterproductive, it’s a waste of time, because you haven’t got all the facts. There are always things in someone else’s marriage that outsiders don’t know, and you, kids, are outsiders. Yes, it’s your family, but it’s their marriage and you don’t.know.everything.

  134. Nobody seems to be addressing the (to me) obvious in regards to BotB. His sister is apparently NOT addressing the real elephant in the room—which is the others that have a problem with the boyfriend’s presence. If she’s afraid her mother, for example, will be upset and make a scene, she should tell HER to suck it up and deal.

    It’s similar to the “problem” of gays in the military—the actual problem is heteros in the military beating up gays in the military. Maybe if sis didn’t pander to the irrational fears of the raging homophobes in her family, this wouldn’t be an issue at all.

  135. MOM’s letter reminded me of some kids I know who grew up in a really really crappy household similar to MOM’s. Growing up in an abusive household is hard on everyone, not just the one being abused. So let’s assume MOM has some baggage. After my friends were grown, their mom had an affair and left. The kids were furious which was really hard for me to understand. Well, what made them angry was that THEY had been forced to endure this horrific life (and now they are kind of screwed up I must say). They felt like their mom should have left much earlier, which would have helped their emotional development and well-being. Just because she “stayed for the children” doesn’t mean their life was warm and fuzzy. They weren’t protected by her. Did I mention they are both kind of screwed up now? I think comments are a little harsh to MOM. And yes, the apple didn’t grow far from the tree. If you raise your sons in an abusive household and don’t stand up to your abusive spouse then you are teaching your children that abuse is okay. Yes, you are. I agree that MOM should keep his/her mouth shut. And I’m not suggesting that MOM’s Mom should have had the wherewithal to leave OR should not have the affair. But geez, don’t blame MOM for being a little putout about it. Just because he/she is all grown up, doesn’t mean s/he doesn’t have some baggage. If we didn’t have baggage, we wouldn’t need Dan!

  136. Savage Love Reader’s sense of fairness:

    Woman a few days ago: I don’t want to invite an ex-fiance to a party, mainly because when I dumped him, he moved on with life too quickly, and I had to watch. That is, no good reason.

    Advice: It’s your party and invite whoever you want for whatever reason you want. Guuuuurl Power!

    Gay Man Today: My gay lover of two years is not invited to a family wedding.

    Advice: Fuck those fucking assholes and their fucking assholery!! You call up your sister and MAKE her invite who YOU want to THEIR party. Did I mention to fuck those fucking assholes!?!?!?! Gay people get to go where they want when they want! (/Imitating Mel Gibson in “Braveheart” now) STONEWAAAAAAALLLLLLLL!

  137. I know that it’s easy to say this in retrospect, and I imagine I would have been shocked at first, but honestly, I kind of wish my mom would have found someone else on the side besides my dad, who sounds A HELL of a lot like the father in this letter. I mean, I work at a mental health facility now, and looking back I’m damned sure he was bipolar. I could go on and on.

    I can also say that when my dad died, and I first told friends, they said, and I quote “I’m sorry… I think?” Before, during and after his funeral, relatives said “don’t you dare feel bad about leaving.” (except my crazy religious aunt who doesn’t believe in mental illness and thought I should apologize, and even she’s realized how much better off we all are without him). During the wake, my sane and cool aunt remarked that she didn’t so much remember him “touching” many lives as “impacting” with whatever object suited his fancy.

    Be happy for your mom. Maybe this affair will even make her grow a pair and get out, particularly if the two of you are grown. I know Dan says that you shouldn’t reveal that you know, but if it were me? I’d have told my mom that I know when it was the right time and said “you know mom, I know dad’s a piece of shit, and we’re both grown. You did a good job, and if you want out of this marriage, we’ll understand.” Not sure what physical ailments you’re talking about (my dad was truly and honestly morbidly obese-like physically impaired), but they gots social services for those kind of things, up to and including going into a nursing home, so it isn’t like he’s going to starve to death or whatever. Only people who have been decent human beings deserve the kind of hand and foot care that I suspect your father has been getting (and is probably why he is so abusive-need to control people to ensure he gets the care he wants).

    Tell your mother that if she leaves him, you’ll be fine.

  138. @15
    I am sooo tired of people comparing sexual orientation to race! It is simply not the same situation! A person who is Black, Mexican or Asian, Can NEVER be anything but that. There is typically no way to hide you Blackness if you are African American and your eyes if you are Asian. Being in the “closet” is not really an option when it comes to race, but you can hide Homosexuality at a whelm.

    This is not to say that I have anything against anyone for their race or sexual orientation, I think people should be able to love or fuck whomever they choose, as long as its within the law. I just hate that comparison; I think its lame…

    Oh yeah, MOM is an intrusive douche bag, and BOTB should just talk to his sister, ask her why she failed to invite his BF to her wedding. If she doesn’t like his BF because he was a douche, then respect that and leave him at home. If she doesn’t like him because he’s fucking her brother, and she think that’s her business, don’t go to the wedding. If BOTB’S BF NOT being at the wedding is more important than BOTB being at the wedding, then BOTB should take his BF to the movies on that day.

  139. Hey, 140! (Is that you, Magnifico?) What part of the difference between ‘casual party’ and ‘Wedding Event’ do you not grasp? Besides all of it, I mean.

  141. @ 142 Being gay is frequently compared to being black or another minority, as that was that last great big group to be discriminated against. We’re all working towards discrimination against gays to end; hence the comparison. I don’t think it’s always a dead-on comparison, but the civil rights struggle part is true.

    You may BE ABLE to hide being gay oh a whim (not a whelm), but you shouldn’t HAVE to; culture should be such that you shouldn’t WANT to, so it’s NBD.

  142. Finally a set of letters where I can express some disagreement over Dan’s usually excellent advice. Well some disagreement- not much!

    The only real “fact” we know is that MOM is cheating on her husband. We have one person’s perspective on the relationship so we really know very little to judge that relationship.

    Maybe Dad is a POS. Maybe he failed to satisfy his wife? Maybe she failed to satisfy him? We don’t really know anything. As Dan points out, it sounds like he may have had good reason to call her a cheating @#!*% !

    So Dan’s standard advice (MYOB) is sound even though he assumes the perspective of the letter writer.

    But the letter from the gay guy was a call for help- not a call for some dramatic @#!*% political action game.

    It is the SISTER’s wedding. I would have told the butt muncher he can make a political statement at his own wedding (commitment ceremony or whatever). He should call Sis and tell him his problem. He should even tell her, as Dan advises, that he can’t go to an event like that without his lover. BUT if the sister doesn’t want the drama he should wish her the best AND if he must protest for political reasons then he should send a nice and personal wedding present.

    You may not remember your best friend growing up or even your first blowjob- but you will ALWAYS remember who supported you at your wedding. This is not about gay rights, it is about love for a sister.

    I would think the least you can do is to show up for the wedding itself, exchange hugs, and leave gracefully before the reception.

    The advice reminds me of some of the radical feminists screaming they will never put a dick inside them as a protest against rape. Nobody- well almost nobody- supports rape and few support outright discrimination against gays. But the place for protest is on the street and the ballot box, not in bed with your husband- or your sister’s wedding.

    Advice from a sex advice columnist who happens to be gay can be great if his advice is as good as Dans- but snowballs from a gay guy? No thanks! LMFAO.

  143. @146: “But the place for protest is on the street and the ballot box, not in bed with your husband- or your sister’s wedding.”

    Oh for fuck’s sake.

    The brother doesn’t want to “protest”. He doesn’t want to make a political statement. He’s not planning to show up at the wedding in leather chaps and a harness, waving a rainbow flag and chanting “We’re here, we’re queer!” All he wants is to attend his sister’s wedding with the person he loves. Just like everybody else.

    Denying him the right to do so is the protest and the political statement – one opposed to equality.

  144. Sounds like MOM has a little bit of Dad in him. And I don’t mean that as an insult but as a warning-be conscious of this so you don’t drive away the people who may care about you and vice-versa. I speak from personal experience. Oh, and for the self-sacrificing mothers who stay in horrible marriages “for the sake of the family”, PLEASE DON’T!!! Again, personal experience.

  145. If family places itself in importance before the development of loving, nurturing romantic relationships, then the great work of humanity is over.

    Parents sacrifice resources (material, psychological, etc) in order to provide an environment for their children to develop, prosper, and potentially, for those offspring having developed, to have the opportunity to provide the same for their own children, one day.

    Families should accept the dying nature of the role they play.

    I would never choose family over my mate. The fact that a family would dare pose such an ultimatum to its scions speaks of the toxic ways that families insinuate themselves, even today, in things far beyond their right to moderate.

  146. Nowhere in BOTB’s letter does he state that his partner is specifically UNINVITED. Could it be that his sis simply assumes they’ll both be coming? Or maybe she didn’t have the guts to put the partner’s name on the invite? Whatever, they should just go, and act like the normal couple that they are. Mom and the other homophobes in the family won’t like it but the fence sitters will learn that a gay couple is no big deal unless the haters choose to make it so.

  147. @145
    I agree that no one should HAVE to hide their sexuality, race, or religion. But some people would if it was possible, just to be accepted. What I’m saying is, Homosexuals have that option, while certain ethnicities don’t. I think that the comparison is weak and lame. It comes off like you’re saying “They get to be black and Mexican, so why can’t I be gay?” I just don’t like it, is all I’m saying. To each his own….

  148. RE BOTB and “The Sacred *Wedding*”. My 2C:

    This is why I never went through the elaborate ceremony. All the posters defending sister and HER DAY. I say Fuck That!

    Instead of a chance for *family* to get together to join two people and two families, American weddings have become an ever-expanding, expensive, stress-filled, politically charged, bride-centric drama.

    They do nothing positive for couple relationships, marriages, or family dynamics.

    Women [and I am one, BTW] who look upon this as their one chance at a star turn need to get real. I don’t think I’ve met a woman yet who didn’t look back on their elaborate wedding and wished they’d saved the money.

    Wedding occasions (if you have to have one) need to go back to being simpler, cheaper, and less formal, focussed on something enjoyable and welcoming for all participants – especially all immediate family members, gay or straight.

    Life is about *people*, People, not circus exhibitions.

  149. #59—Also, make sure your balls are very, very cold (the cookie ones, not the others…unless you’re into that…)
    Sounds like pfefferneusse, which would be a spice-cookie version of this or Russian Teacakes.

    MoM>>Quit snooping and go to your room! You’re grounded, just like that time for being in mom and dad’s bedroom where you were told not to go!

    BOTB—Anyone ever watch “Bridezillas”? Oh, those bitches think it IS ‘all about them’. If so, then why do the rest of those people, including the groom, have to be there?

  151. I think almost every commenter on MOM’s situation is being FAR too hard on him/her and fails to see the unasked questions and concerns in the letter, with the exception of Finn (139), Lynx (39), Scrufff (99) and Minnysota (141).

    There’s a rarely discussed, or rarely fully explored, element of fucked up families and it has to do with the ‘good’ person in the relationship if one exists. Finn (139) gets the closest to hitting this nail on the head when they say “They felt like their mom should have left much earlier, which would have helped their emotional development and well-being. Just because she “stayed for the children” doesn’t mean their life was warm and fuzzy. They weren’t protected by her.”

    I can’t tell you how complicated the emotions can get in sorting out what’s really going on and ‘who’s to blame’ and ‘what is good’, ‘who is good’, ‘who can I trust’ and a million other things when one person in the relationship seems to basically be good and intelligent enough to know that they should leave… and they don’t and they fail in that key area – child protection.

    The big question victims have for any spouse who doesn’t remove themselves and their children from a damaged and damaging partner is “Why didn’t you get us away from that monster as soon as you could?” and I have noticed that the amount of rage and anger can be even stronger when it comes to the partner that you feel “should have known better” or “should have gotten away sooner.”

    The confusion and moral/ethical twists and turns I hear coming through loud and clear in MOM’s letter, which are not explicitly stated are:
    – If she can see herself clear to get a boyfriend, why can’t she see herself clear to get herself and us away from this fucked up situation?
    – She seems to have found away to get a little relief from this situation, and I should be happy for her, but what about us? Not only do we still have to live with this person unless we’re willing to run away but we have no relief from them. Not only do we have no relief from their attacks, but one of us has repeatedly defended this person from their attacks. Each time we do this it chips away at our souls a little more each day and now we’re seriously questioning why we defended this person and if this person knew the attacks were justified, why didn’t she protect us from them somehow too? Why didn’t she defend herself? Why didn’t she insist that we not defend her? Why didn’t she admit and deal with the fall out? Why doesn’t she just get out? Are we just cannon fodder and buffers for her too? Are we just pawns of both of these people? Is she just as fucked and evil as him but in a more socially acceptable package?

    You see what I’m saying here? This is not some straightforward letter. While I agree with Dan’s advice, some of the other commenters go even further. MOM, and hopefully the brother as well, should tell mom she should get a divorce and that she has their support. If she continues to refuse and the situation remains the same, they should get out themselves. No good can come from this.

    “Your mother seems to have been betrayed by her entire family, including the children she stayed with (in the words of one of them) “an abusive asshole and borderline psycho” in order to protect.
    Nocutename (12)”

    The attitude stated above is the one that breeds and fosters and justifies these sorts of situations and I still can’t believe that it still exists today.

    You do not protect yourself, your children, your extended family, your sanity, your self respect, nothing by staying with a borderline psycho. People who do are typically enablers, masochists or too broken down after years of abuse to act. The children end up parenting themselves and their own parents in the process.

    Instead of her defending and protecting him, he has to defend and protect her. Who’s the mother here and who’s the child? Do MOM’s snooping actions (typically a sticky situation parents get into with with their teens rather than the other way around) and the condescending tones many noticed in MOM’s email make more sense now? Does the acronym MOM seem apt now? It seems to me that MOM and the brother are the de facto parents – without the power, status, community recognition and earning potential that comes with it – and the ‘parents’ are their messed up teenagers, with all the respect, deference, allowances for ‘the way they were raised’, financial control etc. that isn’t due to them given their inabilities to handle family responsibilities.

    By staying in such a situation as a spouse, you expose yourself and your children to exponentially greater danger both physically, mentally and emotionally. If you can’t get away immediately, make a plan and enact it so that at some point, you can escape and take your kids with you. If their mother won’t get out, then the kids need to as soon as possible.

  152. For a somewhat law school take on BOTB’s letter: I was frustrated both with the sister and with some of these comments because they all assign blame to the person (the brother) and not the system (wedding events). Think about it: why do large traditional gatherings, particularly weddings, privilege “official couples” in the way they do? Why is it assumed that of course a guest can bring his or her partner to a wedding even if said partner has never met the bride or groom? Why then, can I not bring a sibling or non-romantic friend as my date? How is that different? While it is too late now, the sister had an easy way out of this from the beginning. Don’t invite “+1s” to the wedding at all. Unless both members of the couple are friends with her on separate terms, the husband or boyfriend or whomever is not automatically invited. No extra-invitation privileges just because you are “with someone.” Problem solved.

  154. Re: MOM, geez… No, s/he should not have been snooping, but his/her mother ought to know that finding these emails wasn’t all that difficult–which means that her psycho husband could find them.

    And at this point, she really ought to leave him. Seriously, if her kids are old enough to be writing to Dan Savage, they are old enough to deal with divorced parents. And I hardly think a culture that would frown on divorce would not frown on adultery. It’s fine to be sympathetic to MOM’s mom, but she is being at least somewhat cowardly.

  155. Dan – I think you were wrong about the guy who discivered that his mom is a CPOS by snooping thru email. He descirbed his dad as being antisocial and kinda mean and jealous – maybe her behavior caused him to be this way. Maybe a divorce would be good for him since his wife has a lover and might not be putting 100% into the marriage. Once pandora’s box is opend, it can’t be closed. He should not only tell his mom that he knows about the affair, but he should ask his mom to tell his dad – or else he will do it for her. Most asshole’s aren’t born, they are made. As sweet as she sounds, nobody knows what she’s really like behind closed doors, not even the kids.

  156. I’d also seriously recommend that MOM seek counseling as the child of an abusive father now beginning to take on actions that show a lack of respect for the mother’s autonomy and privacy. The kid feels bad about snooping, but did it anyway; when you’re raised with that sort of controlling behavior, it’s all to easy to replicate it, even if you know it’s wrong. MOM needs to take proactive steps not to bring controlling behavior into his own relationships.

  157. MOM’s mother is a POS. If you’re husband is an asshole, I believe a little economical difficulties are nothing. Keeping you’re little kids away from him is way more important.

  159. I loved the answer to MOM because I am in a somewhat parallel situation. My husband wasn’t horrible when the kids were young, just very off in his own world (due to ADHD). Now he has Parkinson’s disease and the beginning of dementia. I don’t choose to leave–somebody has to take care of him and there is nobody but me and two kids in college. But it hasn’t been a marriage in more than 2 years, and there are parts of me that didn’t get a chance to grow long before that. I’m trying to hold off from an affair for another year, until he is more out of it and our kids are a little more mature. My daughter told me how much she trusts me, and I hate the thought of either breaking that trust or putting her in a situation where she feels caught in the middle.

  160. 155, as a member of alanon, I agree with a lot you have to say. The problem is that those of us who have been codependent enablers didn’t *know* that that was what we were, while we were doing it. We thought we were victims, or saints, or that this is just how life is. The mother here making the generally unhealthy choice to have an affair, rather than healthier actions, most likely means that she can’t see healthier actions – she’s waist deep in the dysfunctional dynamic. She deserves neither beatification, as she seems to be getting here to some extent, nor vilification. LW and his brother show the same symptoms. Best case scenario is for them to get out, and disentangle themselves from their family as best as possible. This also has the added advantage of removing them from their possible roles as hostages, in their mother’s mind. If they can’t remove themselves physically, for some reason, then next best is some detachment, and less investment emotionally in their parents’ marriage.

  161. Wow…I’m not usually inclined to comment on these things, but #146 (the pretty clearly aspirationally-handled “Professor”) you seem to have missed pretty much the entire point of not only this column, but Dan’s entire opus. “Butt muncher”? Calling MOM’s mom an a**h***? Sort of a shocking lack of compassion and subtlety for someone who implies that he reads and agrees with Dan’s column regularly.

  162. Re: BOTB

    Yes, the sister has a right not to have drama at her wedding, but the solution is give mother an ultimatum, not her brother. Ultimatum to parents: I love my brother and respect the man he’s chosen to love. If you can’t respect both of our choices in life partners, please don’t come. You’re only as welcome as you are tolerant.

  163. Hunter, I don’t quite understand your post. Certainly, she has a right to sexual fulfillment. However, she has the right to other things, too, that apparently she isn’t getting in this marriage. Having an affair *might* be solving some of the mother’s problems, but it’s more likely it’s just adding yet another layer of dysfunction, and that’s why I say that it is generally not a healthy choice.

    Feeling that you have no choice but to stay in an unhappy, unhealthy situation while grasping what happiness you can on the sly is one of those dead ends that people in enabling, co dependent relationships fall into. Sometimes, it might be true, but mostly there are many other, better, choices available.

    I’m not saying that an affair is necessarily the wrong move. I’ve seen some people use what they get from an affair to start the process of detaching from the unhealthy patterns in their marriages. More often, though, it’s just more of the same pain, guilt, anger roller coaster, now with a bigger cast.

    If the LW were sitting here in front of me, what I’d be saying is:
    Don’t want to hear about your parents and brother – what about you? Which of your own actions in this situation have been helping to promote your own personal serenity?
    Keep the focus on yourself. Keep your side of the street clean.
    Think about what you hope to accomplish by the various courses of action open to you, and then look at the realistic likelihood of them happening. Keep this reality based – hope is not a strategy.
    Are you pursuing your own goals, separate from those of your family?

  164. MOM’s mom should file a fucking divorce if she’s unhappy. But apparently she’d rather be a bloody martyr than leave an abusive asshole, and she’d also like to have her cake and eat it too by doing what he accuses her of and then soaking up all that delicious martyrdom pity. Everyone involved in that letter is reprehensible and beyond redemption because they’re too busy getting their emotional rocks off by playing their disgusting little roles to actually attempt something crazy, like changing dynamics for anyone’s long-term benefit.

  165. MOM’s letter could have come straight out of Maupassant’s ‘Pierre et Jean.’ I read this my senior year of high school, well before I understood the gray areas of not only relationships, but human behavior in general. What I remember from that book is that the brother who moved on from the fact that his mother had cheated was able to keep it together, the other let it destroy him. Pierre and John’s mother wasn’t a bad person, or malicious, or out to destroy her son’s lives . . . as I recall it, she had an asshole husband, messed up, and kept mum for the sake of her family. If you’ve read anything else of Maupassant’s, you’ll know he sees irony & hardship as the defining aspects of human existence (think “The Necklace”).

    Pick up some literature instead of internet stalking. You might learn something.

  166. Hunter, it’s my experience that the word “decision” isn’t really a very accurate one in this kind of situation. Nobody is “deciding” – they are reacting, they are acting out old patterns, they are lashing out in pain. When actual decision happens, when people see that they have choices, that’s when the change starts to happen.

    LW could see that his choices are not limited to “Accept his mother” or “Reject his mother”, but that he has others. “Let go of his illusion of control over his mother” would be one, where he just doesn’t make a judgement, and assumes that his parents are adults well able to carry out their marriage without his involvement.

    Likewise, mother could stop seeing her marriage as something she has to “fight back” in. Leaving is one possibility, another would be healing the marriage. Has she considered these choices, and settled on sexual satisfaction outside of the marriage and some reasonable emotional accommodation within? Possibly, but more likely she is just thrashing around – as others have pointed out, leaving the evidence around to be easily discovered is not an indication of a well thought out reasoned plan of action.

    People in dysfunctional families often have the notion that nothing can get better because everyone else has to change in order for change to happen. They ignore the fact that when *they* change, (the only change they actually have any power over), change happens. It’s not necessary for everyone to become emotionally healthy simultaneously for emotional health to creep into a family. Better choices by one family member can shift the dynamic, and start to allow clarity. The way you can tell if the choices made are actually better, is by their effect – it’s not that a good choice necessarily makes things better for everyone, but that a good choice will create more space, will give others different options. A good analogy would be unpicking a knot – you know you are moving in the right direction when things as a whole start to loosen up.

  167. Can’t believe I’m the first to point this out but….BOTB, what are the chances that the parents are paying for the wedding?
    If Mom is footing the bill then I guarantee you the Bride has absolutely no final say on the guest list, SO, plus one or anyone else for that matter.

    I’ve been in a similar situation as the boyfriend. My partner’s mother never wanted to meet me. After 3yrs of us living together she would call the house and politely ask to speak with him as though I was the maid answering the phone. When speaking with him she would refer to me as his “roommate” and not acknowledge we were actually a couple. All of his siblings met me and had invited me to their houses for dinners, thanksgiving, christmas, birthday’s, etc. Except for when the Mother was around (she lives in a different city), I didn’t exist and nobody was prepared to rock the boat on the issue for a long time. Many family events happened where not only was I not included but events with an ambiguous guest list my partner was told specifically that I was not welcome. Secretly I was happy to not attend because they are a bunch of assholes but I would go and make nice because that is what you do to be harmonious. It’s his family and so left it up to my partner to deal with. He worked at it with his Mom, and so did his siblings eventually, to no avail. So my partner started to just decline invitations if we both were not included. Mom would piss and moan at these gatherings that my partner wasn’t there so it wasn’t the “whole” family. She never got it through her head that the “whole” family included me as far as everyone else was concerned except her. What happened to turn her around was the unexpected and gruesome death of one of his siblings. While the family was grieving together, all the siblings with their spouses, my partner was alone. Grieving alone without the one person who could comfort him the most and she was the one twisting the knife so the light seemed to finally go on. She also began to realize how much of my partner’s life she was missing out on. It took close to a year after that for her to actually come to our house, but it happened.

    Mom may never be ready to accept your gayness or your partner. You cannot force acceptance on her either, she needs to have her own eureka moment. You shouldn’t be treated like a second class citizen especially in your own family but be careful not to destroy the relationship with your sister over Mom’s issues. Let your feelings be known to your sister. If Mom is controlling the finances for the wedding then take the high road, show up to the Church, play dutiful son and brother then bail before the reception.

  168. Almost everyone is jumping to conclusions regarding the situation in MOM based on very little and incomplete information. The LW describes what his dad is like and that he has been like this for a very long, but what is not known (because the LW doesn’t know or taken the time and effort to find out from relatives)is what he like at the start of the marriage and why his parents got married in the first place. The reasons can’t be good if the dad was an antisocial psycho at the very beginning. Even more than 30 years ago, under what circumstances could someone who is like the dad is now woo and wed a sane person (a marriage arranged by the families/a shotgun wedding). So what changed the dad? What is known is that mom is cheating now and was quite probably cheating in the past given the dad’s (no longer baseless)accusations over the years. What the LW doesn’t say is whether the mom ever denied or refuted the accusations (he does say that the older brother did repeatedly defend the mom against the accusations). What is implied is that the mom is practiced in the arts of lying, deception, and betrayal. Otherwise the revelation of the mom’s cheating would not have been so traumatic for the children. They believed that their mom was good and their dad evil, the mom was the victim and the dad the villain. They are probably questioning the mom’s priorities and just how important they were and are to her (for her to have stayed in the marriage and subjected them to years of abuse).

    An alternate possibility that no one seems to have considered is that for cultural and/or religious reasons (as stupid as they may seem to most readers, even today they do exist some people) the dad has been trapped in a marriage with someone he despises. Or perhaps he just can’t bear the shame and public humiliation that would ensue from having to explain the reasons for a divorce. Assuming they aren’t already known by the adults of the extended family. Even adult children are often kept ignorant of a family’s dirty secrets (forever or until one or more of the principals has died/the information really doesn’t do the children much good at that point since they can’t talk to their parents about it after their death or they only get a one sided story). That is a plausible explanation about how and why the dad has the physical and emotional wreck that he has been described as by the LW. The children may also want to take steps to validate their parentage, if they have little physical resemblance to the father and his side of the family. (What that implies does happen in about 10% of all live births, although I would suspect the dad would have made that accusation if were likely, but then actions do speak louder than words and the LW doesn’t really say how the dad behaved towards the children, I would suspect quite horribly)

    As to the issue of snooping by the LW. It was LW’s fucking computer and the mom made the LW complicit in her cheating by using it, particularly since did not take the simplest of precautions to avoid discovery (logging off, erasing her browsing history, deleting cookies and temporary files). Did she want to be caught or doesn’t really care about her children?

    People (mothers in particular for their children) are often not what they appear to be ( a great big duh).

  169. I have to admit that I’m absolutely amazed that there are people who are sitting here insisting that BOTB should cave to his family’s homophobia because the wedding is his sister’s day/is about the couple/whatever.

    Painfully, what so many people in this culture fail to understand is that once you involve other people in an event, that event cannot be all about you. If the sister invites her family to her wedding, then the day is going to be at least partially about her family. If she doesn’t want to deal with her family, if she really wants it to be all about her, then she needs to elope. You do not get to use other people as props. BOTB is not a prop. He is a human being with wants, needs, and feelings. Saying that he should paint over a vital part of himself so as to be a more appealing prop is appalling. This woman invited her brother, not a servant. If she wants her brother there, then she needs to accept him as he is. If she wants someone else there (someone not gay), then she should go hire someone.

  170. Words like “victim” and “villain” very seldom reflect reality, when it comes to family. And before I get my head bitten off, I said “seldom”, not “never”. So LW is learning that his parents are complex human beings, neither all good nor all bad – unless he’s only seven years old, all I can really say to that is “It’s about time…”

  171. Where in BOTB’s letter did he say he’s been with his boyfriend for 2 years? Actually he said he’s a “single” 28-year old gay man, not attached.
    In my opinion the sister has every right to respect her parents’ wishes (even if they are short-sighted). They raised her, and who knows, they could be amazing and kind role models who happen to not have been exposed to homosexuality.
    The wedding is not the time to make them uncomfortable and bothered. Also, it could be a very small wedding and each plate is pretty expensive. If she doesn’t know this “boyfriend”, why should he be invited? He’s not family.

  172. Where does it say he’s single? I see him use the term “boyfriend” which implies that they are an established couple (as opposed to one night stand, friends with benefits, whatever).

    As far as the rules of etiquette go, established couples are usually invited together. Married or engaged couples MUST be invited together. Since in the present state of affairs, gay couples often cannot be engaged or married even if they want to be, it would seem incumbent on the part of people who profess to care for them to give *more* leeway than usual, rather than less. Not inviting the boyfriend is not only cowardly and bigoted, it’s rude.

  173. I fail to see how wondering how the dad became the loathsome creature he is constitutes justifying or excusing his vile behavior. Usually people like him aren’t born, they either suffer from some mental illness, have been severely injured, or been created, usually by some great tragedy or the actions/behavior of others. People who behave like the dad (an antisocial psycho) can’t form the attachments necessary to have a relationship, much less induce someone to marry them. So I repeat, what changed the dad?

    I’ve also witnessed up close and personal the devastating impact that mental illness, severe injury, great tragedy, and the actions of others have had on what were once loving, caring people. So I repeat, what changed the dad?

  174. @181

    Well, I have to say I don’t see being cheated on as a “great tragedy.” If the dad perceived it as such he might have been better off just ending the relationship, rather than acting like an asshole to everyone in his life, including his wife.

    People who behave like the dad (an antisocial psycho) can’t form the attachments necessary to have a relationship, much less induce someone to marry them. So I repeat, what changed the dad?

    Christ, you are naive. Antisocial psychos get married all the time.

  175. Oh, look, Savage Love readers are defaulting to assuming a woman is blameless for her romantic foibles, and that her actions are justified according to *some* moral code–one never really identified, I note–while the man involved is assumed to be a domineering asshole. And any witnesses to the drama, in this case the kids of the couple, are expected to take the woman’s side.

    Quelle surprise.

    There are times the Savage Love crew is no better than a Womyn’s Studies Reading Group. This is one of them.

  176. In 2005, my sister invited me and my then brand new husband to her wedding in another state. My dad advised that if my husband went, he wasn’t going.

    My sister felt paralyzed and didn’t do the right thing, or make a decision at all. So I did the right thing. I advised my sister and my father that if he truly felt that way, I wouldn’t attend the wedding, because the only way I would go celebrate their marriage was with the man I married. And so we didn’t go.

    Sadly, I missed watching my sister walk too close to the candles on the stairway, accidently light her Vera Wang veil on fire, and have to yank it off and stomp it out with her high heels. Oh, and marry the guy she loves too. But she understood.

    It took my father another 19 months to realize what an asshole he had been and how we was missing out on a relationship with his son and great son-in-law. But, unlike some homophobic parents, he did realize it. Here’s hoping BTOB’s fmaily steps up to the plate at some point. But unless and until they respect his family (and a 2 year bf is family) he should abstain from respecting theirs, as a matter of self-respect.

  177. @ 183

    Oh, look, Savage Love readers are defaulting to assuming a woman is blameless for her romantic foibles, and that her actions are justified according to *some* moral code–one never really identified, I note–while the man involved is assumed to be a domineering asshole.

    He’s not *assumed* to be a domineering asshole – the letter writer said he was one. And letter writer’s letter is all we have to go on.

  178. Yeah, 186, none of you ever argue with the letterwriter’s presentation of facts when the gal is the one slammed.

    /eyeroll

  179. Yeah, it’s unclear from the letter whether BOTB has been seeing his boyfriend for 2 years and this was a detail in the original letter that Dan didn’t print, or whether that was a detail Dan added for the sake of the example.

    A boyfriend of two years is an established relationship that *should* be invited to a wedding. A boyfriend of a few months… not necessarily, whether it’s a straight or gay relationship (although most people aren’t so tight with the guest list that they’d not allow a sibling to bring even a new SO if they want to)

    I agree with Dan’s advice most definitely, but it’s hard to say from the letter as-is whether the sister left off the +1 as a stance against BOTB’s orientation or as an oversight of not knowing he was with someone or as a, you’ve only been dating a few months, it’s not technically an “established” relationship that requires an invite. If it’s a long term thing, he should bring it up either way. If it’s a new relationship… just know that conversation is probably going to get murky. :/

  180. The thing is, people need to make decisions and be prepared for the consequences. If BOTB’s sister is letting her parents pay for her wedding, she’s accepted that she’ll either cow tow to their guest list or make her own decisions. If she’s decided to bow to their wishes, she has to be prepared for her brother to take issue with it. People can’t just skip out on making tough decisions and cop out because they “have no choices.” Even if you’re in a situation where neither choice is good, you ALWAYS have a choice.

  181. I think #155 and #164 make good points. I think that really dysfunctional situations often have a ‘villain’ and a ‘saint’ but these roles can be very deceptive. For example, sometimes a family martyr sacrifices not only him/herself but also their children.

    However, by snooping and being overly-involved in the family drama, MOM and his brother are being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

    The best advice for MOM and the brother is simply “Get a Life.” They should worry about their own romances, not their parents’, especially since it sounds like they’re old enough to be doing their own thing. They aren’t obligated to defend their mother any more — let her defend herself — but should instead look at protecting their lives and their spouses/children from any potential abuse or idiotic drama.

  182. 189 – excellent point. “People can’t just skip out on making tough decisions and cop out because they “have no choices.” Even if you’re in a situation where neither choice is good, you ALWAYS have a choice.” Personal Relationships 101. Problem is, most people dropped out in elementary school.

  183. So BOTB couldn’t use any other event to have his “accept my gayness” talk with his family? He has to use his sister’s wedding??? Give me a break. Just because you’re fucking someone doesn’t mean you get a +1 on your invite, This is HER wedding, not your gay pride parade.

    Clearly you need to have a serious talk with your family but choose a different event, christmas, new years, kwanza, whatever, or…try this…just talk to them without a holiday or a family event as the catalyst…imagine that.

    Stay out of your sister’s day, if you don’t want to go because your sister didn’t invite your bf, don’t go, because that really makes sense…”oh my sister didn’t invite my bf so i’m not going to go”…that doesn’t sound at all like an whining asshole does it.

    Using the wedding as a platform to have a big kumbaya about YOU is beyond lame, apparently he’s been waiting for this opportunity his entire life, thank god his sister is getting married or he would never be able to talk about his boyfriend!

    Dan…you’re usually on point but this time you got it wrong.

  185. I have to wonder if MOM’s mother deliberately left her email logged on for MOM to find. It wouldn’t be the first time someone found a way to let a secret out of the bag.

  186. all cheaters are pieces of shit.
    even if they are cheating ON pieces of shit.
    some stories don’t have any good guys.

  187. @182 A great (personal) tragedy as in the death of a child, the murder of your family, the victim’s of Bernie Madoff (limited to those whose money was given to Madoff without their knowledge or consent), accidentally killing your best friend. Not that any of those necessarily apply here.

    If the dad suffers from mental illness then the children need to see that he gets the help he needs. Something that should have been long ago. (the operative word is if)

    The children need to talk to their relatives (both sides) and their parents’ friends (I know the dad probably doesn’t have any, but who knows maybe he does) to find out if their dad was always an antisocial psycho. If yes, the mom had every right to find what happiness she could. What isn’t justifiable or excusable is her failure in her responsibilities towards her children. She was an adult and chose to stay, they weren’t and had no say about staying until they were adults. They depended on her to protect them and keep them safe, she failed them. No children should suffer being raised in an abusive, dysfunctional environment. (I know many are, but that still doesn’t make it right) That they were is a justifiable condemnation of the mom (particularly if she found her own safe haven)

    If no, then they need straight answers about what changed their dad. Neither of their parents can be considered reliable source of information at this point. Although they now have to question their long held belief that their dad’s accusations were baseless. (The LW does not say whether their mom ever denied the accusations)

    One of Dan’s favorite sayings is once a CPOS always a CPOS

  188. Just had to add my 2 cents worth re: BOB and the wedding guest list. Proper etiquette dictates that the B&G are the sole managers of the guest list; whomever they invite is gospel. Conversely, whomever they do not invite, is excluded. Proper RSVP etiquette dictates that a response is necessary. BOB’s response should be “no thank you” if he cannot accept that his partner wasn’t invited.

    Don’t get me wrong… i believe the bride-to-be has fallen into a black hole and isn’t seeing properly. Hell, she is blind, if she hasn’t adjusted to the fact that her brother is gay. BOB could ask sis if she intended him to fly solo during her wedding, but he must be willing to accept her answer, whatever it may be. Perhaps it was an oversight, however, i doubt it, since BOB states right upfront that his family does not support his sexual orientation.

    When you are not accepted by your own family, BOB, it is time to cut loose and live your life on your own. You can choose your friends, but you cannot choose your family, and if they don’t support you, then why keep bashing your head against that brick wall?

  189. A Post Script re: proper etiquette & guest lists. As per #174’s comment to do with wedding finances and perhaps it is the bride’s parents who are paying for the wedding, then *they* are the sole managers of the guest list. In my mind, i had the B&G as the ones holding the financial strings, but that isn’t always the case.

    No matter, the rest of my #197 post stands, after BOB enquires as to whether there was a mistake made in not including BOB’s partner.

    BOB doesn’t say how long he and his partner have been together, however, that is a moot point. I put myself in the B&G’s shoes, and if it were me, i wouldn’t want my brother – no matter what his sexual orientation – to go it alone on such a momentous day. These negatives are the things people remember through the years, and are the hardest to forgive.

  190. There’s a million reasons other than homophobia to not invite your brother’s boyfriend to your wedding.

    Weddings are expensive and sentimental, and for those reasons people like to keep weddings small. They want to invite people they know well, and people likely to be around in future years. Maybe nobody’s “date” is invited. Just relatives and close friends of the couple

    Furthermore, this guy is only 28. Who is in a serious relationship at age 28? And he doesn’t say my “partner” or “fiance” or “husband.” It’s just his current bf. He should count himself lucky to not have to forevermore look at the photos of that guy whose name he might not remember 10 years from now.

    Also, why would you want to stress out and dramatize your sister before/at/during her wedding? Who says your sister’s wedding has to be the designated Fight-a-Feud day? Some half-drunk advice columnist? If my brother gave me an ultimatum for my own wedding day, I’d think he was a jerk and I’d probably uninvite him. Then I’d cry. (My brother would never do that, though.)

    Last, there is this quaint notion that people get to invite whomever they want to their own weddings. Guests don’t dictate the guest list. You’re a guest, act like one.

  192. I’m going to assume that a lot of the most recent posters are (197-199), in fact, trolls. BOTB’s family is trying to keep his boyfriend away from this momentous occasion because their son’s gayness makes them uncomfortable. Not okay under any circumstances. Dan is totally right. If they don’t want gays at the wedding, BOTB shouldn’t be there.

    Homophobia is never okay, even for megalomaniacal brides on “their” day.

    Also, the fact that gay folks can’t get married in most states deserves at least a little sensitivity from our straight counterparts.

  193. @199, 28 is pretty old in the relationship scheme of things, especially when you consider the average age at marriage (in the US) is 27 for males and 23 for females. And if you’ve been dating since you were 18, it makes sense that you’ve had at LEAST one serious relationship by the time you’re 28.
    Ten years is kind of a long time.

    @201 I totally agree with you. Plus I really hate the “MY WEDDING DAY” Bridezilla. Weddings are about two people pledging their love and trust in each other. Now, graduating from college, THAT day is all about you.

  194. mehretube (200) wrote: “I’m glad none of you are advice columnists. By far the best response here to MOM’s letter was 154.”
    ____________________________________________________

    154 was the short remark about Uncle Ulser wishing that Dan Savage would run for President. I think you really mean Been There’s long and insightful post at 155 saying he believes that MOM and his brother are really angry at their mother not for sleeping with another man, but for not leaving their father and rescuing them from an abusive psycho.

  195. @196

    Since you apparently believe that any woman who cheats on her husband must be in the wrong, you refuse to pay any attention to what MOM wrote. MOM made it very clear that their father has always been an antisocial psycho. The fact that he married MOM’s mother is NOT proof that this was not always the case. Marital fidelity isn’t always easy to maintain in good marriages, and this clearly isn’t a good marriage. I think the mother doesn’t need to be reprimanded for cheating on her husband but rather—if “Been There” at 155 is right—for failing to protect her children by taking them and herself away from him sooner.

    Also, for you and every other person who thinks there is never any legitimate excuse for cheating, please read “Sex At Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality” by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá.

  196. Enough already with all the people saying BOTB should drop the issue. It’s “putting pressure on the bride”? Boo hoo! He’s not “demanding” to bring his bf – if so, he’d just show up at the wedding with him. But in the end, it’s his choice if he wants to show up or not. And he leaves the decision up to her, in a very drama-free way. “I’d love to come to your wedding, but I won’t if I’m not allowed to bring a date – just like anyone else. I won’t be pissed if you say no, but I’m not changing my mind.” Done.

    You know what I hate about as much as homophobes who use words like “faggot” to my face? The many, many people who will tell me they have no problem with gay people, and have gay friends…. but please don’t bring a date to my wedding…. but I don’t believe in gay marriage…. but I don’t like it when you talk about your boyfriend at work… Fuck you! With friends like that, I’ll take my chances with the Christian right!

  199. I don’t think we have enough information about BOTB (although Dan might, and just have left it out in printing). Is your “boyfriend” someone you’ve been with for ages and are committed to (essentially a husband), or someone you’re dating currently? I wouldn’t expect my short-term boyfriends to be invited to family affairs. Is the wedding small or large? If there are only 30 attendees, it makes sense that non-family doesn’t get invited. If there are 200, it’s a different matter.

    Basically, I think it’s the sister’s day, so just take a step back. If the BF isn’t invited and should have been, then don’t go– but not in a huffy, “If HE can’t come, I can’t come!” way. Just privately and quietly explain, “I’m so sorry that I won’t be able to attend, but I don’t feel like it would be fair to John for me to go alone.”

  200. @ 209

    HeatherWasHere, BOTB makes it perfectly clear that it does not matter whether he had just met his new boyfriend, or if the two of them were in a committed relationship for decades—NO homosexual lover of the brother was going to welcome at his sister’s wedding, although spouses and heterosexual lovers of other guests were. Dan Savage was right—just because BOTB’s sister is getting married is no reason to tolerate her homophobia because it’s “her day.” Incidentally, my first cousin happens to be a lesbian, and my family has welcomed her as well as her wife into our home.

  201. 147: “The brother doesn’t want to “protest”. He doesn’t want to make a political statement. He’s not planning to show up at the wedding in leather chaps and a harness, waving a rainbow flag and chanting “We’re here, we’re queer!” All he wants is to attend his sister’s wedding with the person he loves. Just like everybody else.”

    That was funny as @#!*% ! I guess that is the image I had when I wrote my diatribe. So no rainbow flags or leather chaps- what about PDA’s?

  202. @199: Um, I don’t know about where you live, but here in college town Texas, I am one of the only people my age (mid 20s) who is not engaged, married, or in a very serious relationship. And, I am not kidding.

  203. @ 179, you were the first poster to point out that nowhere in BOTB’s letter did it say how long he had been with his boyfriend, but somehow everyone starting assuming it had been two years. Good on ya–that is a major detail that could change a lot of circumstances! His mother met the BF once–couldn’t be in his presence for more than two minutes–it could have been as the two of them were stumbling from a bar one morning. BOTB doesn’t say.

    In principle, if they are a long-term couple, a dis-invitation would be rude and be grounds for a conversation (or confrontation). I think BOTB (and all the outraged responders) should try talking to his sister first and not write to an advice columnist before he knows for sure the reason for the lack of “+1” on the envelope. If it is because of his sister’s bigotry, he’d be justified in not attending, but the whole story is probably a bit more complex. Just talk to her already, you know what happens when you assume–you make an ass out of u and me. Duh.

  204. @205 I made no such claim regarding the mom having an affair. How you came to such a conclusion is beyond me since I clearly stated that the mom had every right to find happiness. May be you need to take a reading comprehension course. My issue is with her raising her children in a toxic environment.

    The dad may have health issues (he has been a physical wreck for most of his marriage). Whatever a being a physical wreck means since the LW did not provide details. In any event the children need to find out if the dad has some medical and/or mental condition that is hereditary and could affect their lives (just like an adopted child needs to know the medical history of its biological parents)

  205. @199: “Furthermore, this guy is only 28. Who is in a serious relationship at age 28?”

    I’m 28. I’ve been married to one guy for 6.5 years, and am in a committed relationship with another (since October). Both my sister and my mother had been married for more than 7 years by the time they turned 28 (sis celebrated #10 this year, mom #36). 28 isn’t that young.

  206. My $.02 on BotB…
    I… about 60% agree with Dan’s advice.

    I think he should talk to his sister. And if his sister says something that boils down to “I don’t want your boyfriend’s gay cooties at my wedding”, he should issue the ultimatum. And if she says “Bringing your BF would upset [insert important relative here]” in a way that seems to suggest that she agrees with said relative, he might issue the ultimatum.

    But if she says something more like “I’d love to have him there, but you *know* Mom would wig out” or “If I invite him, Dad refuses to pay for the wedding”, or “We’re having a really, really small wedding, no one’s getting a +1, really”, or “I’d rather you not bring him, he’s rude and smells like old cheese” (ie “I dislike him as a person” rather than “ew, he’s gay”), then… it becomes less a matter of his sister wanting him but not his gayness, and more a matter of prioritizing other things.

  207. I’m sorry but your advice to the gay guy with a sister getting married was way off. The letter writer did not give you enough information to make a call like that. He said his mom had a problem with his boyfriend, not his sister. We do not really know why she only invited him. She may have a tight budget & needs to cut corners & is only inviting family. Yes, she may be doing it only to appease her mother but there is absolutely no proof of that & the letter writer doesn’t give us any. Bottom line it is HER wedding. Not his & not their moms. It is HER day. There are better times & ways to make a stand for this issue (which I absolutely support) this occasion is not it. I mean just think if he was marrying his partner, would he be ok with someone making demands about HIS day? I don’t think so. No one should do that to a bride or a groom whether or not said bride or groom is gay or straight. Period.

  208. One question….Why would someone want to attend an event that they weren’t wanted at or invited to anyway? I am bi & I have gotten much discrimination from straight people & gay people (namely lesbians who proclaimed loudly that I am “Nasty” because I “suck cock”). I do not have to make a point to ugly people that act like aholes & would be more upset if my partner “forced” me to go somewhere I was not wanted with ignorant people there with no respect for people in general as human beings. Why would anyone want to sit through that? Example……my parents are complete aholes & judgmental idiots. I told my BF from the start that he was never under any obligation to ever go any where with or including my ahole parents! More often than not now, I don’t go because they are negative & counterproductive to my success & happiness. I value myself & my quality of life more than I value their unattainable acceptance. Bottom line they can suck it!

  209. @59 you must sift all the flour & sugars & cocoa powder with a sifter or the cookies will go flat. If you use a sifter they will stay ball shaped. Hope this helps 🙂

  210. The wedding is a year away and the guy already received an invitation addressed only to him? BS! Wedding invitations are generally mailed 3 to 4 weeks before the event.

  211. Am I going to be the only one to make a joke about Dan’s Mom’s Balls?

    She sounds like she was a lovely woman, Dan, and a good cook. It is wonderful that you have so many nice memories of her.
    Happy New Year!

  212. Dan’s advice to BOTB has bull’s-eye accurate. I was once in the same position as the BOTB, except I was cousin of the bride, and after receiving my RSVP the couple explicitly told me I could not bring my partner due to the bride’s father’s homophobic demands (and he’s the kind of person who would say he either wouldn’t attend or wouldn’t pay for the wedding if my partner was there).

    It sounds like BOTB is in the same situation (his query to his sister should make it clear). No way should a domineering, homophobic parent expect to dictate the guest list; and nor should the bride and groom enable the parent to do so. It would’ve been unconscionable for me to acquiesce to this unwarranted insult to my partner by attending the wedding alone, so I stayed home. I also didn’t send a card or gift.
    Don’t reward such b.s. by giving into – it just give them permission to do the same in the future.

  213. What is wrong with you people? I’m sick of people who crusades for political correctness, only when it fits their twisted ego. Are you 100% free of biases/prejudices? You have right to be homosexual, others have right to be unhappy about it. Why do you take a long detour to avoid passing by ‘urban’ area? Do you feel perfectly comfortable about having a serial killer or rapist in your company? How about a chain smoker puffing right next to your kids? Many criminals, smokers and other groups who are usually shunned by society have compelling excuses or even scientific reasons that it’s not their fault, it’s just the way they are. And while it is the right thing not to blame them, it should be permitted to refrain from having them company. BTOB, if your sister did not invite your boyfriend, she feels uncomfortable having him to her wedding, for whatever reason. Whether it be her so-goddamn-wrong-that-she-will-burn-in-hell homophobia, or the possibility of confrontation/discomfort between you guys and your parents, respect her for christ’s sake. You may be a flaming political demagogue who cries out loud for so-called ‘Political Correctness’, but she reserves every right not to join your goddamn crusade. It’s HER wedding, for god’s sake. And if you can’t swallow it, just don’t go there. For others who cries for ‘justice’, you are more narrow-sighted, selfish, self-righteous bigots than Santorum, Osama bin Laden or Sarah Palin.

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