My mother left her e-mail logged in on my computer, and I decided to be an asshole and snoop out of boredom. I honestly wasn’t expecting anything, but I found a few intimate e-mails between her and a strange man that pretty much confirmed that she was cheating on my dad.
My parents have been married for almost three decades, and it’s kind of an understatement to say he’s an antisocial psycho. He restricted her from so many things during their marriage—partly for religious/cultural reasons—and honestly did not appreciate what he had. He’s been a physical wreck for most of their marriage and has no personality to compensate. My mother, on the other hand, is one of the nicest and most caring people you could ever meet.
Okay: Dad’s an abusive asshole and borderline psycho, and Mom’s a beautiful woman with a lot of opportunities and social skills. The only reason she didn’t leave him was to keep the family together and for those same stupid cultural reasons. But it’s hard knowing my mom is a CPOS. It’s killing my older brother, who is close to her, and it’s making him really depressed. He feels betrayed, because for years he’s defended her against my father when he accuses her of cheating and calls her a whore. So what I want advice on is how the hell to confront her about it. I know I snooped in her e-mail, and I know that was wrong. So what the hell to say?
Mother Obliterated Monogamy
Here’s what you say to your mother: “Good for you, Mom.”
But you’re going to say it under your breath, MOM, audible but not quite loud enough for your mother to hear.
Because you’re not going to confront her about this affair or any other affair that you might uncover between now and your father’s death and you’re not going to tell your mom you snooped and you and your brother are going to go right on defending your mother to your father and you’re going to show a little respect—a little retroactive respect—for your mother’s privacy by pretending that you don’t know what you do know.
Is that clear?
Your mom sounds like a lovely woman, MOM, and you and your brother should be happy that she managed to find a little solace, a little love and tenderness, in the arms of a man who isn’t a raving asshole. She deserves that, doesn’t she? As for the CPOS label, that gets slapped only on people who cheat without cause, MOM, and it sure sounds like your mom had cause. Which means she’s not a cheating piece of shit. She’s cheating on a piece of shit.
Yes, yes: Maybe your mom should’ve divorced your father, or had him murdered, but for reasons that will only ever be known to her, MOM, she decided that keeping her family intact—maybe for cultural reasons, maybe for her boys—was more important than remaining faithful to an antisocial psycho. It’s easy to say that cheating is always wrong and to call everyone who cheats a POS, but sometimes an affair is the least worst option.
As for your brother’s feelings of betrayal: Maybe your dad was right and your mom was cheating on him throughout their marriage and his tirades were justified and your brother was a fool to defend your mother. Or maybe your mom decided, after being accused of cheating again and again, and after being called a whore again and again, that if she was going to be accused, indicted, and tried for that particular crime, she might as well have the pleasure of committing it. Encourage your brother to give your mother the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like she deserves it.
I’m a 28-year-old gay man. My only sibling is getting married next year, and I’m invited. My family doesn’t support my gayness. My mom has met my boyfriend only once and refused to be in his presence for more than two minutes. Should I bring my boyfriend to my sister’s wedding or ask him to stay home? My invitation came with only my name on it.
Brother Of The Bride
You say: “Hey, Sis. Looking forward to the wedding. I’ve been seeing a great guy for two years now, as you know, and I’m planning on bringing him to the wedding.”
If she says, “Don’t bring him. It’ll just piss off Mom,” then you say, “I’m coming with my boyfriend or I’m not coming at all—and remember, Sis, one day Mom will be dead and it’s just going to be you and me. So in the long run, you should be more concerned about pissing me off than pissing Mom off.”
And if she says, “Don’t bring him. I don’t want your gay boyfriend at my wedding,” then you say, “If you don’t want gays at your wedding, Sis, then you shouldn’t have invited me. I want to be there—but if I come, I’m bringing my boyfriend.”
Have the confrontation now, BOTB, so that you can’t be accused of trying to make trouble/drama right before your sister’s wedding. But you need to seize this opportunity to dictate terms to your family: They can have their homophobia or they can have you in their lives—but they can’t have both.
Last year, around this time, you promised to share your mom’s Christmas cookie recipe with the readers of your blog. I would love to try it out if you’re okay with sharing the recipe.
Jason
I’m delighted to share my mom’s Christmas cookie recipe. She made these chocolate snowballs every year when her kids were young. Once her kids were grown, Ma Savage shipped tins of these cookies to us if we couldn’t make it home for Christmas. Now I make them in December and ship tins off to my siblings on her behalf. It’s a great recipe for folks with little kids: There’s a step where you roll the dough into balls, a perfect job for little (freshly washed) hands.
I made some earlier this month, had a little sob (I’m still missing my mom), and got some tins off to my sibs. I’m happy to share my mom’s recipe with you, Jason, and with Savage Love readers.
Ma Savage’s Christmas Snowballs
2 cups flour
1/8 teaspoon salt
1/2 cup unsweetened cocoa powder
1 1/4 cup butter
2/3 cup sugar
1 teaspoon vanilla
2 cups pecans
confectioners’ sugar
Sift flour, salt, and cocoa together. Cream butter and sugar until fluffy, and add vanilla. Gradually beat dry ingredients into butter and sugar. Blend in pecans. Form dough into a loaf, wrap it up, put in fridge overnight.
Cut loaf into inch-thick slices, cut slices into inch-square cubes, roll cubes into balls about one inch in diameter. Bake on ungreased cookie sheet at 350 degrees for 20 minutes maximum. Transfer cookies off sheets right away and allow to cool completely. Put cookies in tub or tin, sift confectioners’ sugar over cookies, put lid on, turn tin or tub over a few times to coat cookies with confectioners’ sugar.
Enjoy my mom’s cookies and have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year, everyone.
I think almost every commenter on MOM’s situation is being FAR too hard on him/her and fails to see the unasked questions and concerns in the letter, with the exception of Finn (139), Lynx (39), Scrufff (99) and Minnysota (141).
There’s a rarely discussed, or rarely fully explored, element of fucked up families and it has to do with the ‘good’ person in the relationship if one exists. Finn (139) gets the closest to hitting this nail on the head when they say “They felt like their mom should have left much earlier, which would have helped their emotional development and well-being. Just because she “stayed for the children” doesn’t mean their life was warm and fuzzy. They weren’t protected by her.”
I can’t tell you how complicated the emotions can get in sorting out what’s really going on and ‘who’s to blame’ and ‘what is good’, ‘who is good’, ‘who can I trust’ and a million other things when one person in the relationship seems to basically be good and intelligent enough to know that they should leave… and they don’t and they fail in that key area – child protection.
The big question victims have for any spouse who doesn’t remove themselves and their children from a damaged and damaging partner is “Why didn’t you get us away from that monster as soon as you could?” and I have noticed that the amount of rage and anger can be even stronger when it comes to the partner that you feel “should have known better” or “should have gotten away sooner.”
The confusion and moral/ethical twists and turns I hear coming through loud and clear in MOM’s letter, which are not explicitly stated are:
– If she can see herself clear to get a boyfriend, why can’t she see herself clear to get herself and us away from this fucked up situation?
– She seems to have found away to get a little relief from this situation, and I should be happy for her, but what about us? Not only do we still have to live with this person unless we’re willing to run away but we have no relief from them. Not only do we have no relief from their attacks, but one of us has repeatedly defended this person from their attacks. Each time we do this it chips away at our souls a little more each day and now we’re seriously questioning why we defended this person and if this person knew the attacks were justified, why didn’t she protect us from them somehow too? Why didn’t she defend herself? Why didn’t she insist that we not defend her? Why didn’t she admit and deal with the fall out? Why doesn’t she just get out? Are we just cannon fodder and buffers for her too? Are we just pawns of both of these people? Is she just as fucked and evil as him but in a more socially acceptable package?
You see what I’m saying here? This is not some straightforward letter. While I agree with Dan’s advice, some of the other commenters go even further. MOM, and hopefully the brother as well, should tell mom she should get a divorce and that she has their support. If she continues to refuse and the situation remains the same, they should get out themselves. No good can come from this.
“Your mother seems to have been betrayed by her entire family, including the children she stayed with (in the words of one of them) “an abusive asshole and borderline psycho” in order to protect.
Nocutename (12)”
The attitude stated above is the one that breeds and fosters and justifies these sorts of situations and I still can’t believe that it still exists today.
You do not protect yourself, your children, your extended family, your sanity, your self respect, nothing by staying with a borderline psycho. People who do are typically enablers, masochists or too broken down after years of abuse to act. The children end up parenting themselves and their own parents in the process.
Instead of her defending and protecting him, he has to defend and protect her. Who’s the mother here and who’s the child? Do MOM’s snooping actions (typically a sticky situation parents get into with with their teens rather than the other way around) and the condescending tones many noticed in MOM’s email make more sense now? Does the acronym MOM seem apt now? It seems to me that MOM and the brother are the de facto parents – without the power, status, community recognition and earning potential that comes with it – and the ‘parents’ are their messed up teenagers, with all the respect, deference, allowances for ‘the way they were raised’, financial control etc. that isn’t due to them given their inabilities to handle family responsibilities.
By staying in such a situation as a spouse, you expose yourself and your children to exponentially greater danger both physically, mentally and emotionally. If you can’t get away immediately, make a plan and enact it so that at some point, you can escape and take your kids with you. If their mother won’t get out, then the kids need to as soon as possible.
For a somewhat law school take on BOTB’s letter: I was frustrated both with the sister and with some of these comments because they all assign blame to the person (the brother) and not the system (wedding events). Think about it: why do large traditional gatherings, particularly weddings, privilege “official couples” in the way they do? Why is it assumed that of course a guest can bring his or her partner to a wedding even if said partner has never met the bride or groom? Why then, can I not bring a sibling or non-romantic friend as my date? How is that different? While it is too late now, the sister had an easy way out of this from the beginning. Don’t invite “+1s” to the wedding at all. Unless both members of the couple are friends with her on separate terms, the husband or boyfriend or whomever is not automatically invited. No extra-invitation privileges just because you are “with someone.” Problem solved.
I made the cookies today. They were amazing. Thanks, Dan. 🙂
Re: MOM, geez… No, s/he should not have been snooping, but his/her mother ought to know that finding these emails wasn’t all that difficult–which means that her psycho husband could find them.
And at this point, she really ought to leave him. Seriously, if her kids are old enough to be writing to Dan Savage, they are old enough to deal with divorced parents. And I hardly think a culture that would frown on divorce would not frown on adultery. It’s fine to be sympathetic to MOM’s mom, but she is being at least somewhat cowardly.
Dan – I think you were wrong about the guy who discivered that his mom is a CPOS by snooping thru email. He descirbed his dad as being antisocial and kinda mean and jealous – maybe her behavior caused him to be this way. Maybe a divorce would be good for him since his wife has a lover and might not be putting 100% into the marriage. Once pandora’s box is opend, it can’t be closed. He should not only tell his mom that he knows about the affair, but he should ask his mom to tell his dad – or else he will do it for her. Most asshole’s aren’t born, they are made. As sweet as she sounds, nobody knows what she’s really like behind closed doors, not even the kids.
I’d also seriously recommend that MOM seek counseling as the child of an abusive father now beginning to take on actions that show a lack of respect for the mother’s autonomy and privacy. The kid feels bad about snooping, but did it anyway; when you’re raised with that sort of controlling behavior, it’s all to easy to replicate it, even if you know it’s wrong. MOM needs to take proactive steps not to bring controlling behavior into his own relationships.
MOM’s mother is a POS. If you’re husband is an asshole, I believe a little economical difficulties are nothing. Keeping you’re little kids away from him is way more important.
@157 – did you use whole pecans or chopped/crushed pecans?
I loved the answer to MOM because I am in a somewhat parallel situation. My husband wasn’t horrible when the kids were young, just very off in his own world (due to ADHD). Now he has Parkinson’s disease and the beginning of dementia. I don’t choose to leave–somebody has to take care of him and there is nobody but me and two kids in college. But it hasn’t been a marriage in more than 2 years, and there are parts of me that didn’t get a chance to grow long before that. I’m trying to hold off from an affair for another year, until he is more out of it and our kids are a little more mature. My daughter told me how much she trusts me, and I hate the thought of either breaking that trust or putting her in a situation where she feels caught in the middle.
155, as a member of alanon, I agree with a lot you have to say. The problem is that those of us who have been codependent enablers didn’t *know* that that was what we were, while we were doing it. We thought we were victims, or saints, or that this is just how life is. The mother here making the generally unhealthy choice to have an affair, rather than healthier actions, most likely means that she can’t see healthier actions – she’s waist deep in the dysfunctional dynamic. She deserves neither beatification, as she seems to be getting here to some extent, nor vilification. LW and his brother show the same symptoms. Best case scenario is for them to get out, and disentangle themselves from their family as best as possible. This also has the added advantage of removing them from their possible roles as hostages, in their mother’s mind. If they can’t remove themselves physically, for some reason, then next best is some detachment, and less investment emotionally in their parents’ marriage.
Wow…I’m not usually inclined to comment on these things, but #146 (the pretty clearly aspirationally-handled “Professor”) you seem to have missed pretty much the entire point of not only this column, but Dan’s entire opus. “Butt muncher”? Calling MOM’s mom an a**h***? Sort of a shocking lack of compassion and subtlety for someone who implies that he reads and agrees with Dan’s column regularly.
Re: BOTB
Yes, the sister has a right not to have drama at her wedding, but the solution is give mother an ultimatum, not her brother. Ultimatum to parents: I love my brother and respect the man he’s chosen to love. If you can’t respect both of our choices in life partners, please don’t come. You’re only as welcome as you are tolerant.
Hunter, I don’t quite understand your post. Certainly, she has a right to sexual fulfillment. However, she has the right to other things, too, that apparently she isn’t getting in this marriage. Having an affair *might* be solving some of the mother’s problems, but it’s more likely it’s just adding yet another layer of dysfunction, and that’s why I say that it is generally not a healthy choice.
Feeling that you have no choice but to stay in an unhappy, unhealthy situation while grasping what happiness you can on the sly is one of those dead ends that people in enabling, co dependent relationships fall into. Sometimes, it might be true, but mostly there are many other, better, choices available.
I’m not saying that an affair is necessarily the wrong move. I’ve seen some people use what they get from an affair to start the process of detaching from the unhealthy patterns in their marriages. More often, though, it’s just more of the same pain, guilt, anger roller coaster, now with a bigger cast.
If the LW were sitting here in front of me, what I’d be saying is:
Don’t want to hear about your parents and brother – what about you? Which of your own actions in this situation have been helping to promote your own personal serenity?
Keep the focus on yourself. Keep your side of the street clean.
Think about what you hope to accomplish by the various courses of action open to you, and then look at the realistic likelihood of them happening. Keep this reality based – hope is not a strategy.
Are you pursuing your own goals, separate from those of your family?
MOM’s mom should file a fucking divorce if she’s unhappy. But apparently she’d rather be a bloody martyr than leave an abusive asshole, and she’d also like to have her cake and eat it too by doing what he accuses her of and then soaking up all that delicious martyrdom pity. Everyone involved in that letter is reprehensible and beyond redemption because they’re too busy getting their emotional rocks off by playing their disgusting little roles to actually attempt something crazy, like changing dynamics for anyone’s long-term benefit.
MOM’s letter could have come straight out of Maupassant’s ‘Pierre et Jean.’ I read this my senior year of high school, well before I understood the gray areas of not only relationships, but human behavior in general. What I remember from that book is that the brother who moved on from the fact that his mother had cheated was able to keep it together, the other let it destroy him. Pierre and John’s mother wasn’t a bad person, or malicious, or out to destroy her son’s lives . . . as I recall it, she had an asshole husband, messed up, and kept mum for the sake of her family. If you’ve read anything else of Maupassant’s, you’ll know he sees irony & hardship as the defining aspects of human existence (think “The Necklace”).
Pick up some literature instead of internet stalking. You might learn something.
Hunter, it’s my experience that the word “decision” isn’t really a very accurate one in this kind of situation. Nobody is “deciding” – they are reacting, they are acting out old patterns, they are lashing out in pain. When actual decision happens, when people see that they have choices, that’s when the change starts to happen.
LW could see that his choices are not limited to “Accept his mother” or “Reject his mother”, but that he has others. “Let go of his illusion of control over his mother” would be one, where he just doesn’t make a judgement, and assumes that his parents are adults well able to carry out their marriage without his involvement.
Likewise, mother could stop seeing her marriage as something she has to “fight back” in. Leaving is one possibility, another would be healing the marriage. Has she considered these choices, and settled on sexual satisfaction outside of the marriage and some reasonable emotional accommodation within? Possibly, but more likely she is just thrashing around – as others have pointed out, leaving the evidence around to be easily discovered is not an indication of a well thought out reasoned plan of action.
People in dysfunctional families often have the notion that nothing can get better because everyone else has to change in order for change to happen. They ignore the fact that when *they* change, (the only change they actually have any power over), change happens. It’s not necessary for everyone to become emotionally healthy simultaneously for emotional health to creep into a family. Better choices by one family member can shift the dynamic, and start to allow clarity. The way you can tell if the choices made are actually better, is by their effect – it’s not that a good choice necessarily makes things better for everyone, but that a good choice will create more space, will give others different options. A good analogy would be unpicking a knot – you know you are moving in the right direction when things as a whole start to loosen up.
Can’t believe I’m the first to point this out but….BOTB, what are the chances that the parents are paying for the wedding?
If Mom is footing the bill then I guarantee you the Bride has absolutely no final say on the guest list, SO, plus one or anyone else for that matter.
I’ve been in a similar situation as the boyfriend. My partner’s mother never wanted to meet me. After 3yrs of us living together she would call the house and politely ask to speak with him as though I was the maid answering the phone. When speaking with him she would refer to me as his “roommate” and not acknowledge we were actually a couple. All of his siblings met me and had invited me to their houses for dinners, thanksgiving, christmas, birthday’s, etc. Except for when the Mother was around (she lives in a different city), I didn’t exist and nobody was prepared to rock the boat on the issue for a long time. Many family events happened where not only was I not included but events with an ambiguous guest list my partner was told specifically that I was not welcome. Secretly I was happy to not attend because they are a bunch of assholes but I would go and make nice because that is what you do to be harmonious. It’s his family and so left it up to my partner to deal with. He worked at it with his Mom, and so did his siblings eventually, to no avail. So my partner started to just decline invitations if we both were not included. Mom would piss and moan at these gatherings that my partner wasn’t there so it wasn’t the “whole” family. She never got it through her head that the “whole” family included me as far as everyone else was concerned except her. What happened to turn her around was the unexpected and gruesome death of one of his siblings. While the family was grieving together, all the siblings with their spouses, my partner was alone. Grieving alone without the one person who could comfort him the most and she was the one twisting the knife so the light seemed to finally go on. She also began to realize how much of my partner’s life she was missing out on. It took close to a year after that for her to actually come to our house, but it happened.
Mom may never be ready to accept your gayness or your partner. You cannot force acceptance on her either, she needs to have her own eureka moment. You shouldn’t be treated like a second class citizen especially in your own family but be careful not to destroy the relationship with your sister over Mom’s issues. Let your feelings be known to your sister. If Mom is controlling the finances for the wedding then take the high road, show up to the Church, play dutiful son and brother then bail before the reception.
Almost everyone is jumping to conclusions regarding the situation in MOM based on very little and incomplete information. The LW describes what his dad is like and that he has been like this for a very long, but what is not known (because the LW doesn’t know or taken the time and effort to find out from relatives)is what he like at the start of the marriage and why his parents got married in the first place. The reasons can’t be good if the dad was an antisocial psycho at the very beginning. Even more than 30 years ago, under what circumstances could someone who is like the dad is now woo and wed a sane person (a marriage arranged by the families/a shotgun wedding). So what changed the dad? What is known is that mom is cheating now and was quite probably cheating in the past given the dad’s (no longer baseless)accusations over the years. What the LW doesn’t say is whether the mom ever denied or refuted the accusations (he does say that the older brother did repeatedly defend the mom against the accusations). What is implied is that the mom is practiced in the arts of lying, deception, and betrayal. Otherwise the revelation of the mom’s cheating would not have been so traumatic for the children. They believed that their mom was good and their dad evil, the mom was the victim and the dad the villain. They are probably questioning the mom’s priorities and just how important they were and are to her (for her to have stayed in the marriage and subjected them to years of abuse).
An alternate possibility that no one seems to have considered is that for cultural and/or religious reasons (as stupid as they may seem to most readers, even today they do exist some people) the dad has been trapped in a marriage with someone he despises. Or perhaps he just can’t bear the shame and public humiliation that would ensue from having to explain the reasons for a divorce. Assuming they aren’t already known by the adults of the extended family. Even adult children are often kept ignorant of a family’s dirty secrets (forever or until one or more of the principals has died/the information really doesn’t do the children much good at that point since they can’t talk to their parents about it after their death or they only get a one sided story). That is a plausible explanation about how and why the dad has the physical and emotional wreck that he has been described as by the LW. The children may also want to take steps to validate their parentage, if they have little physical resemblance to the father and his side of the family. (What that implies does happen in about 10% of all live births, although I would suspect the dad would have made that accusation if were likely, but then actions do speak louder than words and the LW doesn’t really say how the dad behaved towards the children, I would suspect quite horribly)
As to the issue of snooping by the LW. It was LW’s fucking computer and the mom made the LW complicit in her cheating by using it, particularly since did not take the simplest of precautions to avoid discovery (logging off, erasing her browsing history, deleting cookies and temporary files). Did she want to be caught or doesn’t really care about her children?
People (mothers in particular for their children) are often not what they appear to be ( a great big duh).
I have to admit that I’m absolutely amazed that there are people who are sitting here insisting that BOTB should cave to his family’s homophobia because the wedding is his sister’s day/is about the couple/whatever.
Painfully, what so many people in this culture fail to understand is that once you involve other people in an event, that event cannot be all about you. If the sister invites her family to her wedding, then the day is going to be at least partially about her family. If she doesn’t want to deal with her family, if she really wants it to be all about her, then she needs to elope. You do not get to use other people as props. BOTB is not a prop. He is a human being with wants, needs, and feelings. Saying that he should paint over a vital part of himself so as to be a more appealing prop is appalling. This woman invited her brother, not a servant. If she wants her brother there, then she needs to accept him as he is. If she wants someone else there (someone not gay), then she should go hire someone.
Words like “victim” and “villain” very seldom reflect reality, when it comes to family. And before I get my head bitten off, I said “seldom”, not “never”. So LW is learning that his parents are complex human beings, neither all good nor all bad – unless he’s only seven years old, all I can really say to that is “It’s about time…”
Where in BOTB’s letter did he say he’s been with his boyfriend for 2 years? Actually he said he’s a “single” 28-year old gay man, not attached.
In my opinion the sister has every right to respect her parents’ wishes (even if they are short-sighted). They raised her, and who knows, they could be amazing and kind role models who happen to not have been exposed to homosexuality.
The wedding is not the time to make them uncomfortable and bothered. Also, it could be a very small wedding and each plate is pretty expensive. If she doesn’t know this “boyfriend”, why should he be invited? He’s not family.
Where does it say he’s single? I see him use the term “boyfriend” which implies that they are an established couple (as opposed to one night stand, friends with benefits, whatever).
As far as the rules of etiquette go, established couples are usually invited together. Married or engaged couples MUST be invited together. Since in the present state of affairs, gay couples often cannot be engaged or married even if they want to be, it would seem incumbent on the part of people who profess to care for them to give *more* leeway than usual, rather than less. Not inviting the boyfriend is not only cowardly and bigoted, it’s rude.
I fail to see how wondering how the dad became the loathsome creature he is constitutes justifying or excusing his vile behavior. Usually people like him aren’t born, they either suffer from some mental illness, have been severely injured, or been created, usually by some great tragedy or the actions/behavior of others. People who behave like the dad (an antisocial psycho) can’t form the attachments necessary to have a relationship, much less induce someone to marry them. So I repeat, what changed the dad?
I’ve also witnessed up close and personal the devastating impact that mental illness, severe injury, great tragedy, and the actions of others have had on what were once loving, caring people. So I repeat, what changed the dad?
@181
Well, I have to say I don’t see being cheated on as a “great tragedy.” If the dad perceived it as such he might have been better off just ending the relationship, rather than acting like an asshole to everyone in his life, including his wife.
People who behave like the dad (an antisocial psycho) can’t form the attachments necessary to have a relationship, much less induce someone to marry them. So I repeat, what changed the dad?
Christ, you are naive. Antisocial psychos get married all the time.
Oh, look, Savage Love readers are defaulting to assuming a woman is blameless for her romantic foibles, and that her actions are justified according to *some* moral code–one never really identified, I note–while the man involved is assumed to be a domineering asshole. And any witnesses to the drama, in this case the kids of the couple, are expected to take the woman’s side.
Quelle surprise.
There are times the Savage Love crew is no better than a Womyn’s Studies Reading Group. This is one of them.
In 2005, my sister invited me and my then brand new husband to her wedding in another state. My dad advised that if my husband went, he wasn’t going.
My sister felt paralyzed and didn’t do the right thing, or make a decision at all. So I did the right thing. I advised my sister and my father that if he truly felt that way, I wouldn’t attend the wedding, because the only way I would go celebrate their marriage was with the man I married. And so we didn’t go.
Sadly, I missed watching my sister walk too close to the candles on the stairway, accidently light her Vera Wang veil on fire, and have to yank it off and stomp it out with her high heels. Oh, and marry the guy she loves too. But she understood.
It took my father another 19 months to realize what an asshole he had been and how we was missing out on a relationship with his son and great son-in-law. But, unlike some homophobic parents, he did realize it. Here’s hoping BTOB’s fmaily steps up to the plate at some point. But unless and until they respect his family (and a 2 year bf is family) he should abstain from respecting theirs, as a matter of self-respect.
@ 183
Oh, look, Savage Love readers are defaulting to assuming a woman is blameless for her romantic foibles, and that her actions are justified according to *some* moral code–one never really identified, I note–while the man involved is assumed to be a domineering asshole.
He’s not *assumed* to be a domineering asshole – the letter writer said he was one. And letter writer’s letter is all we have to go on.
Yeah, 186, none of you ever argue with the letterwriter’s presentation of facts when the gal is the one slammed.
/eyeroll
Yeah, it’s unclear from the letter whether BOTB has been seeing his boyfriend for 2 years and this was a detail in the original letter that Dan didn’t print, or whether that was a detail Dan added for the sake of the example.
A boyfriend of two years is an established relationship that *should* be invited to a wedding. A boyfriend of a few months… not necessarily, whether it’s a straight or gay relationship (although most people aren’t so tight with the guest list that they’d not allow a sibling to bring even a new SO if they want to)
I agree with Dan’s advice most definitely, but it’s hard to say from the letter as-is whether the sister left off the +1 as a stance against BOTB’s orientation or as an oversight of not knowing he was with someone or as a, you’ve only been dating a few months, it’s not technically an “established” relationship that requires an invite. If it’s a long term thing, he should bring it up either way. If it’s a new relationship… just know that conversation is probably going to get murky. :/
The thing is, people need to make decisions and be prepared for the consequences. If BOTB’s sister is letting her parents pay for her wedding, she’s accepted that she’ll either cow tow to their guest list or make her own decisions. If she’s decided to bow to their wishes, she has to be prepared for her brother to take issue with it. People can’t just skip out on making tough decisions and cop out because they “have no choices.” Even if you’re in a situation where neither choice is good, you ALWAYS have a choice.
I think #155 and #164 make good points. I think that really dysfunctional situations often have a ‘villain’ and a ‘saint’ but these roles can be very deceptive. For example, sometimes a family martyr sacrifices not only him/herself but also their children.
However, by snooping and being overly-involved in the family drama, MOM and his brother are being part of the problem, not part of the solution.
The best advice for MOM and the brother is simply “Get a Life.” They should worry about their own romances, not their parents’, especially since it sounds like they’re old enough to be doing their own thing. They aren’t obligated to defend their mother any more — let her defend herself — but should instead look at protecting their lives and their spouses/children from any potential abuse or idiotic drama.
189 – excellent point. “People can’t just skip out on making tough decisions and cop out because they “have no choices.” Even if you’re in a situation where neither choice is good, you ALWAYS have a choice.” Personal Relationships 101. Problem is, most people dropped out in elementary school.
So BOTB couldn’t use any other event to have his “accept my gayness” talk with his family? He has to use his sister’s wedding??? Give me a break. Just because you’re fucking someone doesn’t mean you get a +1 on your invite, This is HER wedding, not your gay pride parade.
Clearly you need to have a serious talk with your family but choose a different event, christmas, new years, kwanza, whatever, or…try this…just talk to them without a holiday or a family event as the catalyst…imagine that.
Stay out of your sister’s day, if you don’t want to go because your sister didn’t invite your bf, don’t go, because that really makes sense…”oh my sister didn’t invite my bf so i’m not going to go”…that doesn’t sound at all like an whining asshole does it.
Using the wedding as a platform to have a big kumbaya about YOU is beyond lame, apparently he’s been waiting for this opportunity his entire life, thank god his sister is getting married or he would never be able to talk about his boyfriend!
Dan…you’re usually on point but this time you got it wrong.
Wow. That’s a lot of butter.
How could these not be great?
I have to wonder if MOM’s mother deliberately left her email logged on for MOM to find. It wouldn’t be the first time someone found a way to let a secret out of the bag.
all cheaters are pieces of shit.
even if they are cheating ON pieces of shit.
some stories don’t have any good guys.
@182 A great (personal) tragedy as in the death of a child, the murder of your family, the victim’s of Bernie Madoff (limited to those whose money was given to Madoff without their knowledge or consent), accidentally killing your best friend. Not that any of those necessarily apply here.
If the dad suffers from mental illness then the children need to see that he gets the help he needs. Something that should have been long ago. (the operative word is if)
The children need to talk to their relatives (both sides) and their parents’ friends (I know the dad probably doesn’t have any, but who knows maybe he does) to find out if their dad was always an antisocial psycho. If yes, the mom had every right to find what happiness she could. What isn’t justifiable or excusable is her failure in her responsibilities towards her children. She was an adult and chose to stay, they weren’t and had no say about staying until they were adults. They depended on her to protect them and keep them safe, she failed them. No children should suffer being raised in an abusive, dysfunctional environment. (I know many are, but that still doesn’t make it right) That they were is a justifiable condemnation of the mom (particularly if she found her own safe haven)
If no, then they need straight answers about what changed their dad. Neither of their parents can be considered reliable source of information at this point. Although they now have to question their long held belief that their dad’s accusations were baseless. (The LW does not say whether their mom ever denied the accusations)
One of Dan’s favorite sayings is once a CPOS always a CPOS
Just had to add my 2 cents worth re: BOB and the wedding guest list. Proper etiquette dictates that the B&G are the sole managers of the guest list; whomever they invite is gospel. Conversely, whomever they do not invite, is excluded. Proper RSVP etiquette dictates that a response is necessary. BOB’s response should be “no thank you” if he cannot accept that his partner wasn’t invited.
Don’t get me wrong… i believe the bride-to-be has fallen into a black hole and isn’t seeing properly. Hell, she is blind, if she hasn’t adjusted to the fact that her brother is gay. BOB could ask sis if she intended him to fly solo during her wedding, but he must be willing to accept her answer, whatever it may be. Perhaps it was an oversight, however, i doubt it, since BOB states right upfront that his family does not support his sexual orientation.
When you are not accepted by your own family, BOB, it is time to cut loose and live your life on your own. You can choose your friends, but you cannot choose your family, and if they don’t support you, then why keep bashing your head against that brick wall?
A Post Script re: proper etiquette & guest lists. As per #174’s comment to do with wedding finances and perhaps it is the bride’s parents who are paying for the wedding, then *they* are the sole managers of the guest list. In my mind, i had the B&G as the ones holding the financial strings, but that isn’t always the case.
No matter, the rest of my #197 post stands, after BOB enquires as to whether there was a mistake made in not including BOB’s partner.
BOB doesn’t say how long he and his partner have been together, however, that is a moot point. I put myself in the B&G’s shoes, and if it were me, i wouldn’t want my brother – no matter what his sexual orientation – to go it alone on such a momentous day. These negatives are the things people remember through the years, and are the hardest to forgive.
There’s a million reasons other than homophobia to not invite your brother’s boyfriend to your wedding.
Weddings are expensive and sentimental, and for those reasons people like to keep weddings small. They want to invite people they know well, and people likely to be around in future years. Maybe nobody’s “date” is invited. Just relatives and close friends of the couple
Furthermore, this guy is only 28. Who is in a serious relationship at age 28? And he doesn’t say my “partner” or “fiance” or “husband.” It’s just his current bf. He should count himself lucky to not have to forevermore look at the photos of that guy whose name he might not remember 10 years from now.
Also, why would you want to stress out and dramatize your sister before/at/during her wedding? Who says your sister’s wedding has to be the designated Fight-a-Feud day? Some half-drunk advice columnist? If my brother gave me an ultimatum for my own wedding day, I’d think he was a jerk and I’d probably uninvite him. Then I’d cry. (My brother would never do that, though.)
Last, there is this quaint notion that people get to invite whomever they want to their own weddings. Guests don’t dictate the guest list. You’re a guest, act like one.
I’m glad none of you are advice columnists. By far the best response here to MOM’s letter was 154.
I’m going to assume that a lot of the most recent posters are (197-199), in fact, trolls. BOTB’s family is trying to keep his boyfriend away from this momentous occasion because their son’s gayness makes them uncomfortable. Not okay under any circumstances. Dan is totally right. If they don’t want gays at the wedding, BOTB shouldn’t be there.
Homophobia is never okay, even for megalomaniacal brides on “their” day.
Also, the fact that gay folks can’t get married in most states deserves at least a little sensitivity from our straight counterparts.
@199, 28 is pretty old in the relationship scheme of things, especially when you consider the average age at marriage (in the US) is 27 for males and 23 for females. And if you’ve been dating since you were 18, it makes sense that you’ve had at LEAST one serious relationship by the time you’re 28.
Ten years is kind of a long time.
@201 I totally agree with you. Plus I really hate the “MY WEDDING DAY” Bridezilla. Weddings are about two people pledging their love and trust in each other. Now, graduating from college, THAT day is all about you.
mehretube (200) wrote: “I’m glad none of you are advice columnists. By far the best response here to MOM’s letter was 154.”
____________________________________________________
154 was the short remark about Uncle Ulser wishing that Dan Savage would run for President. I think you really mean Been There’s long and insightful post at 155 saying he believes that MOM and his brother are really angry at their mother not for sleeping with another man, but for not leaving their father and rescuing them from an abusive psycho.
@196
Since you apparently believe that any woman who cheats on her husband must be in the wrong, you refuse to pay any attention to what MOM wrote. MOM made it very clear that their father has always been an antisocial psycho. The fact that he married MOM’s mother is NOT proof that this was not always the case. Marital fidelity isn’t always easy to maintain in good marriages, and this clearly isn’t a good marriage. I think the mother doesn’t need to be reprimanded for cheating on her husband but rather—if “Been There” at 155 is right—for failing to protect her children by taking them and herself away from him sooner.
Also, for you and every other person who thinks there is never any legitimate excuse for cheating, please read “Sex At Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality” by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá.
Enough already with all the people saying BOTB should drop the issue. It’s “putting pressure on the bride”? Boo hoo! He’s not “demanding” to bring his bf – if so, he’d just show up at the wedding with him. But in the end, it’s his choice if he wants to show up or not. And he leaves the decision up to her, in a very drama-free way. “I’d love to come to your wedding, but I won’t if I’m not allowed to bring a date – just like anyone else. I won’t be pissed if you say no, but I’m not changing my mind.” Done.
You know what I hate about as much as homophobes who use words like “faggot” to my face? The many, many people who will tell me they have no problem with gay people, and have gay friends…. but please don’t bring a date to my wedding…. but I don’t believe in gay marriage…. but I don’t like it when you talk about your boyfriend at work… Fuck you! With friends like that, I’ll take my chances with the Christian right!
The second letter is why everyone should use encrypted email. If you use Thunderbird, download and install the Enigmail extension.
@108: I love your butt-naked running Calvin icon!
I don’t think we have enough information about BOTB (although Dan might, and just have left it out in printing). Is your “boyfriend” someone you’ve been with for ages and are committed to (essentially a husband), or someone you’re dating currently? I wouldn’t expect my short-term boyfriends to be invited to family affairs. Is the wedding small or large? If there are only 30 attendees, it makes sense that non-family doesn’t get invited. If there are 200, it’s a different matter.
Basically, I think it’s the sister’s day, so just take a step back. If the BF isn’t invited and should have been, then don’t go– but not in a huffy, “If HE can’t come, I can’t come!” way. Just privately and quietly explain, “I’m so sorry that I won’t be able to attend, but I don’t feel like it would be fair to John for me to go alone.”
@ 209
HeatherWasHere, BOTB makes it perfectly clear that it does not matter whether he had just met his new boyfriend, or if the two of them were in a committed relationship for decades—NO homosexual lover of the brother was going to welcome at his sister’s wedding, although spouses and heterosexual lovers of other guests were. Dan Savage was right—just because BOTB’s sister is getting married is no reason to tolerate her homophobia because it’s “her day.” Incidentally, my first cousin happens to be a lesbian, and my family has welcomed her as well as her wife into our home.