You usually get mail about
sex, being a “sex advice columnist” and all, but I have a
parenting problem. Given that you are a fellow parent, I’m hoping you
have some insight.
My brother is a conservative; I’m a
politically engaged liberal. I can’t change him, but I’m disturbed
because his son, who we’ll call “George,” is 13 years old and has taken
on many of his dad’s intolerant views. For instance, whenever I suggest
that my toddler-age son could have a girlfriend or a boyfriend when he
grows up, George says, “Being gay is just wrong.” He also uses the word
“gay” as a pejorative, as in “that’s so gay.” George takes every
possible opportunity to let us know that he thinks homosexuality is
wrong. George loves my son, and my son thinks the world of George. So
two questions:
1. Do you have any suggestions as to how to
convince a 13-year-old boy that homosexuality is okay? I have no
parental authority here.
2. Is there an ethical problem with me
trying to convince George to adopt my values, in spite of my brother’s
intention to raise his son with “his values”? Or, put another way, does
my trying to sway George without my brother’s permission give my
brother license to use words like “fag” in front of my son without my
permission?
Advancing Liberalism In Youth
Don’t be such a liberal pussy, ALIY. You’re
letting a 13-year-old boy-bigot smack you around! It’s time to stop
wringing your hands and start wringing the little bastard’s neck.
Your nephew feels free to share his opinions
with you—and that’s great. Kids have a right to express
themselves. But you are an adult—HELLO!—and you have
a right to express yourself right back. And you can express
yourself every bit as bluntly. “Being gay is just wrong,” says
the nephew. “You’re just wrong, you little shit,” says the
uncle. (That’s how my uncles addressed me.) Then you advise your
punk-ass nephew to read a book, learn something about the subject, and
maybe talk to a real live gay person before he opens his fool mouth to
you again on the subject.
Fathers are free—sadly—to teach
their sons whatever ridiculous bullshit they care to. I’m teaching my
son, for instance, that the theory of gravity is just a theory and that
invisible wads of magic chewing gum hold everything down. Your brother,
however, can’t ask you to censor yourself to protect his kid from the
realization that, hey, maybe—just maybe—other opinions are
out there and maybe his dad is wrong about homosexuality. So put your
brother on notice: If his son is going to share his opinions—your
brother’s opinions, but whatever—with adults who disagree, then
your nephew is going to get into arguments with adults, arguments
that—with you, at least—your nephew is going to lose.
And if your brother insists that you STFU
about your pro-gay views around his kid, you have a right to insist
that he and his son STFU about their anti-gay views around YOUR kid,
who might—the chance is small, but there’s a chance—grow up
to be gay.
Your nephew, of course, could be gay
himself. Lots of closeted gay teens seize “every possible opportunity”
to let their relatives “know [they] think homosexuality is wrong.” I’m
tempted to add, “And here’s hoping your piece-of-shit nephew is a
fag—it would serve your brother right.” But odds are good that
your nephew, if he is gay, would grow up to be one very messy gay
adult, thanks to the zap his dad put on his head, and we’ve got enough
messy gay men lurking in the shrubbery already, so here’s hoping the
nephew is straight.
Finally, ALIY, no one is going to take away
your liberal card if you stop working your toddler son’s potential
future gay boyfriends into conversation. It’s not a crime against
progressive values for a parent to assume that his son will most likely
be straight when he grows up because—and you might want to sit
down for this, you liberal pussy—most of our sons will be
straight when they grow up. It’s hardly child abuse, ALIY, to
refrain from asking others to entertain the possibility that your
toddler son will one day enjoy taking it up the ass.
Seriously.
And if you are going to speculate, ALIY, how
dare you stop at gay? A boyfriend or a girlfriend? What if he’s
bisexual and goes from boyfriends to girlfriends? Or what if he’s poly
and wants scads of boyfriends and girlfriends at the same time? Or what
if he’s asexual and doesn’t want anyone? Or, hell, what if he’s into
inanimate objects like that British guy who got arrested for fucking a
bicycle? Or into dead animals like the nut in Wisconsin who got
arrested for fucking a dead deer? Or what if he’s a cuckold fetishist
and wants a girlfriend who has other boyfriends who blow loads in her
that your son gets to slurp out of her pussy when she gets home while
talking about how much he loves “cream pie” and shall I go
on?
I shan’t, ALIY, because there’s no need.
Contemplating—to say nothing of forcing others to
contemplate—our children’s future sex partners and interests is
unnecessary. We parents shouldn’t be in denial about children’s
sexuality, of course, and we should make sure our children receive
excellent sex education. But beyond that, we should demonstrate a quiet
reserve, a respect for our children’s privacy, and refuse to indulge in
gratuitous speculation. We can also demonstrate acceptance by being
accepting, and let our kids know that it’s okay with us if they’re gay
or bisexual—or straight—through our actions and, at
carefully chosen moments, through our words.
Otherwise, ALIY, our primary responsibility
as parents is to STFU, as the kids say, launder those crusty come socks
without comment, and let them be who and what they are.
I’m a female college student and a
feminist. I expect equal treatment at home and at work. But I
have fantasies of domestic discipline. Some days I’d like to rush home
to clean and make dinner for my boyfriend in only an apron. Then I’d
appreciate it if he’d find some excuse, something I did wrong, and
spank me until I cry before he has wild sex with me.
My open-minded guy would be up for this. But
how on earth do I set effective boundaries? How can you be taken
seriously as an equal when you tell your boyfriend that you’d like him
to dominate you outside the bedroom (the cooking and cleaning aspect)
on occasion? It’s totally unrealistic to pretend to be BETTY CROCKER
all the time.
No Clever Acronym
Get a necklace, NCA, that you wear only when
you want the boyfriend to take charge. You decide when that necklace
goes on, you decide when it comes off, which puts you in control,
paradoxically, of your own submission.
When you’re wearing it, you’re BETTY CROCKER
(whoever she is) and the boyfriend has your consent to order you about,
spank your ass, and fuck you senseless. When it’s off, you’re equals.
Easy! 
DS PWND ALIY!!!
I am sorry but the letter writer has no right to force his political beliefs on his brother, let alone the brother’s kid. If he wanted to raise someone with his values, he should have had kids himself. The best he can and should do is be a good gay role model. Adolescents do tend to want to rebel against their parental units at some point, so all hope is not lost for George. Normally your advice is right on, Dan, but you blew it on this one. In a few years when your child is an adolescent and some uncle thinks you’re bringing the kid up wrong, you’ll understand.
Robin, I don’t think you read the letter. ALIY does have a kid, and, as far as I can tell, there’s no indication that ALIY is gay.
These details may not be enough to convince you that you are wrong, but the first one, at least, is kind of significant: ALIY doesn’t want George to adversely influence his son’s views. I’m pretty sure that was the crux of the letter, actually.
And that point–that George could affect what ALIY’s kid thinks–brings up another point: that children and their parents do not exist in a vacuum. George is not harmlessly spewing anti-gay rhetoric in a life of total seclusion. When he talks, people hear him. As Dan said, George has every right to express his views. But so, too, do adults have the right to refute them. He’s 13, not 2. He can take it.
Mr. Savage,
Thank you for your advice to NCA. I was just about to write in with a similar problem.
Thank you.
Gravity is a Law not a theory.
doesn’t anyone remember being in 8th grade (or 9th grade through college) when *everything* that all the 13 year old boys referred to was “gay”? He’s parotting his dad, because he isn’t old enough to have his own opinions yet, and saying what he hears all the other boys saying. It’s just a phase. Nobody needs to argue with him, or make him feel like a little piece of shit (when he’s just being a normal 13 year old boy), most likely just having quiet examples of open-minded people in his life will be enough to eventually make him realize that there are other ways to think and other ways to be, and that his dad is wrong. (I still remember my humiliation at age 11 when I called someone a “Stupid N***r” because I heard my dad say it. Did I know it was wrong? No. Did I find out quickly from my mortified grandmother? Oh yes.)
It’s probably enough to just gently correct him when he brings it up, and say “Please don’t speak that way in front of me or my son” or “Not everyone feels that way” or “it’s just one tiny piece of the way some people are, like having blonde hair or liking beets”…instead of engaging in morality debates with a middle-schooler. Just be a tolerant open-minded presence in his life and try to expose him to other ideas, cultures, types of people (because his dad probably doesn’t). Within 3 years of so his dad is going to become an idiot who doesn’t know anything about anything and Junior will rebel against the ideas he was raised with in whatever way he can. Unless he doesn’t, in which case, you will have done your best.
doesn’t anyone remember being in 8th grade (or 9th grade through college) when *everything* that all the 13 year old boys referred to was “gay”? He’s parotting his dad, because he isn’t old enough to have his own opinions yet, and saying what he hears all the other boys saying. It’s just a phase. Nobody needs to argue with him, or make him feel like a little piece of shit (when he’s just being a normal 13 year old boy), most likely just having quiet examples of open-minded people in his life will be enough to eventually make him realize that there are other ways to think and other ways to be, and that his dad is wrong. (I still remember my humiliation at age 11 when I called someone a “Stupid N***r” because I heard my dad say it. Did I know it was wrong? No. Did I find out quickly from my mortified grandmother? Oh yes.)
It’s probably enough to just gently correct him when he brings it up, and say “Please don’t speak that way in front of me or my son” or “Not everyone feels that way” or “it’s just one tiny piece of the way some people are, like having blonde hair or liking beets”…instead of engaging in morality debates with a middle-schooler. Just be a tolerant open-minded presence in his life and try to expose him to other ideas, cultures, types of people (because his dad probably doesn’t). Within 3 years of so his dad is going to become an idiot who doesn’t know anything about anything and Junior will rebel against the ideas he was raised with in whatever way he can. Unless he doesn’t, in which case, you will have done your best.
Dan,
I think your advice to ALIY was perfect. Even dumb ass kids can cause a lot of damage. that little shit George needs to be put in line before it’s too late for him to learn real tolerance!
habibbi,
If George is old enough to pretend to have moral convictions like “Being gay is just wrong,” then he is old enough to be challenged on them. You say you learned quickly from your mortified grandmother that “Stupid Nigger” was not to be repeated, why shouldn’t George be taught the same lesson? By your own advice, it would have been more appropriate for your grandmother to quietly provide an example a person who doesn’t use the phrase “Stupid Nigger”, allowing you to come to your own conclusions upon maturity. Why do you suggest ALAY hide his mortification?
That is AMAZING advice to NCA. It’s elegant, simple, and it would completely work.
Dan! You don’t know who Betty Crocker is? Are all the cakes at your house made from scratch? Do you not have the ubiquitous red and white checked cookbook on your shelf? Did not your Mother (may she rest in peace)?
I know I’m a little late posting here… but I am shocked at how often women who identify themselves as “feminists” want to be dominated and “taken” by a man. I am a mother and sole breadwinner of my family so I am not just saying this to put feminists down. But it surprises me how often the strong images projected by individuals actually hide an interior that is quite the opposite. Perhaps I am being naive.
I remember when my little brother was using the word gay pejoratively. I asked him why and he said, “It’s not bad because you have to look at it in context. I’m not talking about gay people.” I said, “OK, so what do you mean in context?” And he said, “It means bad.” And I said, gently, “you don’t think people will associate gay people with ‘bad’ when it’s used all the time?”
He just laughed and realized what the problem was.
We can win these battles on ideas. Like Robin said, there’s no reason to force your opinion on your brother’s kid. In fact, I wouldn’t even do that with my own kid. You simply provoke thought and know that the ideas you present will be stronger, because they’re right. Arguments are always better than punishment because arguments have a way of opening someone’s eyes to new ways of thinking. Punishment only builds resentment. Let’s use the force of ideas and argument to convince, not coerce.
wasabi,
my theory on the matter is that just as its hard to be betty crocker all the time, its hard to be rosie the riveter all the time. in our phallocentric society, men want to be actively in charge just as much as they want to be passively catered to. women are (read: should be) subjected to this same opportunity, but the battle for feminism places all of its soldiers in the hard-working, independent, higher-society people who make themselves vulnerable to the pressures of responsibility. while men who back off from this are entitled to back off, women who do so feel as though they are betraying their cause by showing weakness. while i think that the whole thing is stupid and that people should just shut up and submit to egalitarianism, sadly the world doesnt work that way.
sex is fun. that is to say, it is a way for us to temporarily escape reality and take a some time off from our pressures. the feminists in question use sex to take a breath from their dominant public personae by means of a submissive private persona because–lets face it–male or female, there is only so much we can expect a person to accomplish without admitting the human quality of imperfection.
on the other hand, ‘hiding an interior that is quite the opposite’ is also a potential turn-on for many of the same reasons. holding a secret from society is hot, as is the dissonance of self-denial, our internal struggles, the dichotomy between what could be and what is, and all of those internal and external influences that make psychology majors’ mouths water.
again, just a midnight thought, but i just thought that taking a stab at the answer would help you out.
wasabi,
my theory on the matter is that just as its hard to be betty crocker all the time, its hard to be rosie the riveter all the time. in our phallocentric society, men want to be actively in charge just as much as they want to be passively catered to. women are (read: should be) subjected to this same opportunity, but the battle for feminism places all of its soldiers in the hard-working, independent, higher-society people who make themselves vulnerable to the pressures of responsibility. while men who back off from this are entitled to back off, women who do so feel as though they are betraying their cause by showing weakness. while i think that the whole thing is stupid and that people should just shut up and submit to egalitarianism, sadly the world doesnt work that way.
sex is fun. that is to say, it is a way for us to temporarily escape reality and take a some time off from our pressures. the feminists in question use sex to take a breath from their dominant public personae by means of a submissive private persona because–lets face it–male or female, there is only so much we can expect a person to accomplish without admitting the human quality of imperfection.
on the other hand, ‘hiding an interior that is quite the opposite’ is also a potential turn-on for many of the same reasons. holding a secret from society is hot, as is the dissonance of self-denial, our internal struggles, the dichotomy between what could be and what is, and all of those internal and external influences that make psychology majors’ mouths water.
again, just a midnight thought, but i just thought that taking a stab at the answer would help you out.
wasabi,
The 18 year old guy above is totally right.
I completely identify with the feminist turned on by Domestic Discipline. I, myself, am one of those hardcore, Rosie-the-riveter, fierce femme dyke feminists.
Being “taken down” in bed is fun. Plain and simple. And it’s not just men, plenty of us radical queer dykes like to be taken down too (by each other!).
Quite frankly, the idea that to be a good feminist, I need to be into equality to the nth degree in every facet of my life, in and out of the bedroom, to be a “real” feminist is absurd. Great sex is all about power exchange, and feminists you’re talking about are often the ones fighting the good fight about things like sexual freedom and porn that isn’t exploitative. That’s right, feminists watch porn, too.
Here’s the thing, wasabi — fantasy is fantasy. It’s a kink thing, and I enjoy the power exchange, and I totally get off on that kind of play (note: PLAY).
It’s hot. Wearing a pretty dress, some awesome heels, making cookies, and having some big old bulldyke with strong arms and tough demeanor decide that she should put her combat-booted foot down and I should get spanked over her levi-clad knee turns me on. Why? Possibly because it’s fun to be someone else for a little bit, because butch dykes in combat boots who look like James Dean with boobs are hot, because all day I deal with self-righteous middle class public-radio listening 2nd wave feminists who think porn is horrible and slingback stilettos are tools of the patriarchy, and dammit I need to blow off some steam.
And after that hot June Cleaver gets spanked by the big, tough bulldagger scene, my partner and I cuddle, have sex, clean up, and go out to dinner with our vanilla lesbian friends, volunteer for planned parenthood, or teach safe kinky sex classes (mostly to straight people…).
Want to know why the straight people who actually do the Domestic Discipline thing do it? Because it’s a way for bible-thumping right-wing conservative nutjobs to have kinky sex and indulge their kinks without feeling guilty about them.
Kinky sex is fun, folks. Kinky sex is fun.
THANK YOU, rosie the rivedyke. Beautifully, beautifully said.
I am annoyed at how often militant feminists attack “regular” feminists for not wearing their power suit 24/7–or at all, for that matter. Has everyone lost the scope of what feminism means in the first place? It’s the idea that you can be the power suit-wearing Rosie the Riveter, OR you can be June Cleaver, OR (gasp) you can switch between the two on a whim. It’s the idea that you can choose what you want to do, not that you have to become a staunch rebel to traditional roles. That’s just taking closed-mindedness to the opposite extreme, when what we really want is to be in the middle.
I don’t think anything anyone likes to do or be in the bedroom should be subject to have any reflection or fall in line with anything they are outside. What turns your crank turns your crank–as long as you’re safe, healthy and not hurting anyone, you shouldn’t have to justify your kinks. Period.