Once again, Savage Love is given over to
letters from readers who made the largest donations to the campaigns to
preserve marriage equality in California (www.noonprop8.com), protect same-sex
couples in Florida (www.sayno2.com), and defeat Stephen Harper
in Canada (better luck next time). I neglected to ask readers to donate
to the campaign against an anti-gay-marriage amendment in Arizona (it’s
not too late: www.votenoprop102.com), because I
am a bad, bad man.
When I met my girlfriend, she
had recently quit smoking. She knew from the beginning that smoking is
a deal breaker for me, but despite the encouragement from me and all
her friends, she keeps having “lapses.” I haven’t dumped her over this
because we live far apart at the moment. However, I feel firmly that we
can’t take the next step—one of us moving to be with the
other—until she kicks this habit for good. She has always
insisted that she wants to, and she knows how much smoking bothers me.
But at what point will I know if she has finally quit? My fear is that
there will always be another “lapse” coming. She is so great in every
other way that I don’t want to blow her off prematurely, and I want her
to quit for her own health, too. Am I being an unreasonable
perfectionist?
Do Not Use My Name
Here’s my bought-and-paid-for advice, DNUMN:
Beware the smoker who stops—or “quits”—just long enough to
convince you that her smoking days are behind her and then, once you’re
living together or married or otherwise hopelessly entangled, suddenly
experiences one final and everlasting “lapse.” Be clear and up front,
DNUMN: Smoking is a deal breaker if she moves across the country to
live with you, it’s a deal breaker if you marry her, it’s a deal
breaker now, it’s a deal breaker forever.
I don’t have a question. I
have a story to share. My parents had an unusual strategy for sex
education. Instead of picking a day to have a birds-bees discussion,
they first explained all the mechanics of the penis/vagina/uterus/baby
when I was 6 months old. This was to give them practice. Then, as I got
older, any question I asked that was moderately related to sex resulted
in me getting the whole of the penis/vagina/uterus/baby story
again.
Fast-forward to sophomore year. While
playing a drinking game, people were asked to retell the story of when
they got The Talk. But I never got The Talk because I grew up with it.
So on winter break, I demanded The Talk from my dad. He came up with a
few quips—sex is easy, sleeping in the same bed is hard. But the
next day my mother pulled me aside.
“So I understand that you and your father
had a conversation yesterday,” my delightfully WASP-y and cheerful
mother said.
“Um, yeah—”
“I want you to forget everything he said and
remember this. Whatever you’re doing, do it slower. Whatever you’re
doing, do it softer. And whatever you’re doing, ask more
questions.”
She turned around and walked away as I
picked up my jaw from my floor.
J.
I don’t want to contradict your mother, J.,
but for the record: Some folks like it fast and hard, and prefer the
barked orders to the thoughtful questions. But thanks for
sharing….
I am a bisexual woman in a
nonmonogamous marriage with a lesbian. We met one Sunday afternoon
through an ad in our local alternative newsweekly. It was supposed to
be a booty call, but Jennifer is so smart, witty, and plain good that I
had to have some more of her and her milky-white breasts.
The sex started off fantastic—and
eight years later we’ve had lots of sex toys, some gents and ladies on
the side, and a few sex parties, and we are just as passionate and
creative in bed as ever. We respect each other’s sexual autonomy as
well as our own relationship. Domestically, we are very compatible and
even agree on how to spend our money: good causes, traveling, and a
Tempur-Pedic bed. Things are fantastic. My question: How can I be any
more smug?
Holly
You’ve stumped me, Holly.
I’m an American man but I’m
writing from Canada, where my husband and I live. Please remind
everyone that even though defeating Prop 8 is vital, getting rid of the
federal “Defense of Marriage Act” is equally important. My hubby cannot
live in the USA with me until DOMA is repealed no matter what happens
in California. Many people don’t get that state and federal marriage
laws are two different things.
Okay, here’s our pressing question: What is
the proper threesome etiquette once the good times are over? What do
you do with your third? I say we should roll over and make room in the
bed, while my husband thinks we should (nicely) toss the guy out. What
say you?
Married And Gay In Canada
I’m with your partner, MAGIC, unless…
If it’s pissing rain outside or freezing
cold, or if you live in a neighborhood that’s unsafe to stroll through
alone at 4:00 a.m., or if your third ditched his friends—and his
ride—to come home with you, MAGIC, offer to let your third stay
the night. But no third worth inviting back will accept, of course,
because a good third knows to say thanks and get out—or eat it
and beat it—so that his hosts can decompress, check in with each
other, and resume the open, flagrant, unselfconscious farting that
characterizes all long-term relationships.
Could you mention my recycled
T-shirt website, Teecycle.org, in
the column? Here’s how the site works: Every day I post a new (used)
shirt. Each one costs $7 and a dollar of that goes to restoring urban
rivers.
Tim Cigelske
I don’t see the connection between urban
rivers and used T-shirts, Tim, and urban rivers are in serious trouble
if we’re restoring them one-dollar-per-used-T-shirt-at-a-time, but
thanks for the donation and here’s your plug.
Well, hey, that was fun! But next week I’ll
be selecting letters using my tried-and-true method: Sit in a bar, read
a few hundred e-mails, respond to ones I find
interesting/appalling/nauseating. And to the hundreds of folks who made
donations and are waiting on personal responses from me: I’m
overwhelmed. Perhaps I should have made the cutoff for advice $100, not
$25. I’ll get to everybody, I swear, but it’s going to take a week or
two. But everyone who made a donation will hear from me before we all
go to the polls on November 4 and vote for Barack Obama.
Download the Savage Lovecast (my
weekly podcast) every Tuesday at www.thestranger
.com/savage.
Dan, did you just pull these out of your ass five minutes ago? Because these ones are booooring. I’m with last week’s commentors: Do an “oh my God!” column for us. Please?
Here’s dreaming I can single-handedly make Texas a blue state.
Those were all from people who paid to have them in the column. They suck, but they paid good money (to a worthy cause, at least), so we’re stuck with them. Hopefully next week, he starts back with teh crazies.
On a side note, Dan please, please, please have your tech-savvy at-risk youth put up an rss feed for your column. And correct my spellign. And perhaps an rss feed of just your slog postings. And pie. With whipped cream. And Cherries.
If DNUMN’s gf isn’t giving him the middle finger and asserting her independence and right to smoke no matter what he thinks, then I think he’s being kind of a prick, as quitting is really hard and lapses seem part and parcel of it. If she is, then end it already. Either way he doesn’t have the right to make someone wait forever.
I’m “Jennifer” in the letter above from “Holly”. If only all the right wing, fear-mongering, knee-jerk a-holes trying to break up my marriage felt the way Old Mama Chips does — you wouldn’t have had to suffer the booooring letters above. The truth is the “gay agenda” is boring. It’s about legal rights and respect which just doesn’t have the interest-holding shock value that poo eaters and foot bobbing closeted Senators do. How can I get more smug? By knowing that all couples of all orientations have equal rights. Thanks for your loud and reasoned voice Dan.
J’s mom doesn’t know how to ask for what she wants, apparently.
“…resume the open, flagrant, unselfconscious farting that characterizes all long-term relationships.”
SO FUCKING TRUE.
Holly could be more smug…Does she own a Prius? Have her wife install solar panels on their roof? Is she vegan?
Duh, like $25 is no money!
Hey Spyrocyst I’m helping convert Texas also! Uh, to a blue state of course…I already have a toaster. 🙂
@Spyrocyst
You are not alone! A like minded co-worker recently made an interesting point about voting for a Democratic Presidential candidate here. Despite the fact there’s no chance the Dems will take Texas, if, Jebus-forbid, McCain wins, at the very least our votes will make him less able to call it a “mandate.”
I understand where DNUMN is coming from. The first kiss I had was from a smoker and I staretd to gag because of the taste. The next guy had never had a ciggy in his life and he tasted a lot better and I actually enjoyed it. I have overcome an addiction to self injury and I know it is hard to give something up and I know that there will be lapses, but I also know that the reason I gave it up was because my friends and my boyfriend cared enough about me to help me quit. If she cared about him enough she would quit, even if the only way to do so was to go to the doctor and get a pill to help her.
I actually liked these letters, they represented real issues. Can`t wait for next week!
Hey, these people were awesome to donate so much for equality. Even if they are boring rich people.
Re: Personal responses
Take your time, Dan. The thought of a personal response a) from someone like you b) on an issue as fucked up as the one I wrote about is worth the wait.
Dan, love your column, love your podcast, keep it up. yet take time to chill.
I agree with ChefSalad… you NEED a RSS feed. It would be absolutely fantastic to just look at my reader and see you had posted.
Yep, I loved the farting part. A true gem.
“If DNUMN’s gf isn’t giving him the middle finger and asserting her independence and right to smoke no matter what he thinks, then I think he’s being kind of a prick, as quitting is really hard and lapses seem part and parcel of it. If she is, then end it already. Either way he doesn’t have the right to make someone wait forever.”
I’m with Karey. I smoked for like 3 months two years ago, and I still get a strong urge to smoke again when I’m around smoking people or I look at the cigarette display behind the counter at 7-11. Quitting is hard. But don’t claim something is a dealbreaker and then act like maybe it sort of isn’t. Either you can stand it or you can’t. And you have to stand by whatever decision you make.
I’m a straight female and hav donated $100and have volunteered over 50 hours and counting to No on Prop 8. I just wanted to say that Dan, you’re my answer to the “what living person would you like to have dinner with?”
Dan, it didn’t occur to me to say anything sooner, but I was surprised that you didn’t include Prop 4 (http://www.noonprop4.org/). Are the lives of teenage girls not worth defending just because they happen to have vaginas which look like canned ham dropped from a great height?
To people looking for a feed, there’s one via the Village Voice:
http://feeds.villagevoice.com/articles/savage_love
Found it through the Livejournal syndication page; if you want that feed, it’s here:
http://syndicated.livejournal.com/savagelove/
MAGIC: No no no, you are right, and your boyfriend (and Dan) are heartless and selfish. Imagine you are in the position of the third. Would you want to be turfed out into the cold, lonely night while the couple who’ve seduced you and used you to fulfill their fantasy cuddle up and exclude you from their victory snuggle? No! Unless this bedmate is a prostitute, he deserves to be treated with affection and respect after sex — as all sex partners do. I know this, as I’ve been that third who was turfed to the couch (after my boundaries were NOT respected by either party, which made the turfing just feel like adding insult to injury) and let me tell you, IT SUCKS. Please continue treating your bed partners as human beings — after all, they are.
To DNUMN: Try Nicorette.
Stopping smoking is a day-to-day battle but you must a) respect the addiction and b) genuinely want to stop. My mom stopped last year after smoking for 40 years because she genuinely didn’t want to smoke anymore. She knows that every day she could start again. When my dad leaves cigarettes around the house, she could pick one up out of habit but she doesn’t because she doesn’t want to smoke and understands that if she starts, she won’t stop. See, it’s the mindset too; stopping smoking and not quitting.
This weeks group obviously had more money than questions (which is obviously as very very good thing). However, I’m not totally with you on the “throw the three way out”. Some of our best trios have resulted in not only repeats but overnighters. I mean, what’s to say you can’t knock off a little extra something when you all arise from a night of hot and horny sex? We’ve even planned weekend “play” dates with a few different people that we’ve had special connections with. I say buy a king size bed and play it at it lays.
I’m so happy that you all agree that uninhibited farting goes with long term relationships! I love my boyfriend dearly, he is an affectionate sweetheart, but I’m an insecure person and will always worry. Now I will relax a bit each time he lets one rip. Hey, I’ll take all the reassurance I can get, even if it comes out his butt.
I must disagree on the threesome advice. For years I had a lover who lived with me, and a boyfriend who did not. Boyfriend came for whole weekends many times, and always slept with us after the festivities. It was great.
Voting for BHO simply because he appeals to your “alternative” side, is a vote ruled by ignorance. I only wish the GOP had a candidate that was on par with BHO freshness…that was not skewered simply b/c they are GOP.
Beelzebufo beat me to it, but I’ll second his comment. Holly, get yourself a hybrid car. Then watch the South Park episode “Smug Alert”.
As an strong anti-smoker I have said I would never date a guy who smokes by stating if they do not care about themselves how can they care about me. A few years back I met a great guy who had just quit smoking and was okay with helping him through it. After one night when he came to my place reeking of smoke his excuse was, “I only smoke when I snort coke.”
Smoking is a deal breaker? I can understand smoking in the house, or smoking in the car when you’re with them, but give me a fucking break. I don’t enjoy the fact that my wife steps outside and has an occasional smoke, but not enough to get all bent out of shape about it. If you’re this uptight, good luck dealing with all the other challenges that marriage throws at you. What a fascist.
Dan,
Thanks for the reminder about No On 8. My new Sister-in-law just remarried, (CA annulled the first), and had requested donations for wedding gifts. Your column spurred me into donating in time.
Holly could be more smug by selling crappy used t-shirts to benefit a marginally valuable charity, and could demonstrate that smugness by using the slogan, “Change your shirt. Change the world.”
ChefSalad, there is already a Slog RSS feed: http://slog.thestranger.com/index.xml
Although Dan is undeniably awesome, there are plenty of other feed-worthy posts on Slog by folks that are not Dan. But I second the vote for an RSS feed for the column itself.
I’m pretty disappointed that you only answered the highest paid donators and not the best questions. Also, of the 9 replies in the last 2 weeks, 5 were non-questions. I submitted a question, but my paltry $50 may not suffice for consideration. I’m still hoping I’ll get a personal reply like you said you’d give to all who donated. I submitted a very good and well written question (signed as Afraid of the Consequences) asking about coming out for bisexuals. I’ve read your column for a long time, and I’ve never heard you comment on this. Still hoping to hear from you.
Karey, my Dad quit smoking and he was able to quit without any lapses.
If DNUMN’s gf can’t wrap her brain around the idea that he doesn’t want her smoking period then he should just DTMFA. I’ve seen people die because of smoking and I can understand it being a deal-breaker (it is for me too). If she can’t respect that and find a way to quit, there are patches, drugs, cold-turkey without anymore lapses, then maybe she needs to be dumped over it. For her own health.
I’m all for smoking being a deal breaker too. My reasoning basically is, cancer just happens to people often enough, and being the caregiver to someone fighting it is an unbelievably draining process. While I would of course do it for my significant other and expect them to do it for me should it happen, I think I have the right to avoid ending up the partner of someone who’s actually giving themselves cancer in the future with their choices. Its inconsiderate of my future really. I’m the same way about other things, like men who drive like total jackasses.
But even so, and even if some people can quit without any lapses, I just think those people who can are few and far between and he’s perhaps demanding too much perfection. She first quit before she met him, so its not like he’s her only motivation. If she ever decided at some point to give up on the quitting, as Dan warns, that would be the deal breaker to me.
It takes an average of 11 trys to quit smoking… I tried for years, and would go over a yr w/o a puff, but then start again… it ain’t as easy as 1-2-3
Holly could buy a Mac.
BC wrote:
“Smoking is a deal breaker?
…
If you’re this uptight, good luck dealing with all the other challenges that marriage throws at you. What a fascist. “
So…having boundaries = fascism? I know some people who are okay with partners who smoke, with or without restrictions (like, only outside, never in the car, etc.). I know some people for whom it’s a dealbreaker–heck, I’ve dated a few people who’ve outright said that. And…none of them are fascists, and most of them are at least as well equipped as you are to deal with the other challenges of a relationship. Having “dealbreakers” and telling your S.O. about them does not a fascist make. In fact, deciding that you won’t date smokers at all seems way more balanced than saying “honey, I’m okay with you smoking, but if you ever do it in the car I’m effin leaving in a heartbeat.”
Oh, and whose law is it again that states that any internet discussion will eventually feature name calling involving fascists or nazis?
I will agree with megan that DNUMN shouldn’t “claim something is a dealbreaker and then act like maybe it sort of isn’t.” The more times she has a lapse and he(?) continues to be in a relationship with her, the more likely she is to have more lapses even when they’re in the same city/house. I realise that it’s complicated because they’re not physically together, so I’m sure many of the things that make smoking a dealbreaker aren’t a problem for DNUMN, and I do advocate patience when dealing with addicts who are trying to quit, but if it’s a dealbreaker, act like it’s a dealbreaker.
Oh yeah, the letter doesn’t give much background on how frequent her “relapses” are, or under what circumstances. If she smokes three or four times a year, that’s one thing. If she sometimes bums a cigarette when she goes out drinking with a group including lots of smoker buddies, that’s another. If, like a smoker friend of mine, she can’t seem to “quit” for more than about four days, that’s something else entirely. The indication of whether she’s in the ready-to-quit but still-having-lapses stage or the paying-lip-service-to-recovery stage comes from background like that.
The girl who smokes should definately dump this guy. People come and go, but smoking is a relationship worth having. And, yes, it takes years off your life, but they’re the crummy ones at the end so, who cares?
I hate hate hate hate the phrase “milky white breasts.”
Next time, don’t have a set “cut-off” amount, but have a raffle (or Chinese auction). Award 1 virtual ticket for each dollar donated. Then pick 20 tickets (or 100 or however many letters you want to answer), but obviously discard duplicate wins.
That way, people who can’t afford whatever cut-off amount you set are still motivated to enter, and people who are desperate to get answered are motivated to donate more than the cut-off amount. The more you donate, the better your chances – but no donation is too small.
Holly could have been more smug. She could have concluded her letter by presumptuously telling everyone which presidential candidate to for in in November like Dan ended his column. Love your column Dan, but I’ll vote whomever I want.
Hey,
Why’d my comment get taken down?
I’m a Seattle lesbian currently living in California. I married the love of my life recently and just want to thank everyone for their donations to defeat prop 8! Hooray for you! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!
As an ex-smoker and someone who has slogged through a massively long distance (non-smoking) relationship, I can say that smoking is definitely a deal-breaker for me now. Sort of. Frankly, it’s a deal-breaker in a real relationship but not really an issue if I just want to fuck the guy and long as he doesn’t taste completely like an ashtray.
Somehow DNUMN’s letter sounds like he feels the same. The I-haven’t-seen-you-in-a-month long distance relationship sex can be awesome and hard to put down.
McCain 08 is great,
No on 8 is better!
Hey Spyrocast,
There are at least two other blue voters in the sea of red that is Texas. Your dream is our dream. Gobama! Defeat McLame/Failin’!
Props for opps of prop 8.
Love the Savage Love Cast on my iPod every week. How about a shout out to Apple Inc, who threw down 100 grand to ‘No to 8’. Check their hot news site: http://www.apple.com/hotnews/ for short write up.
Apple is the shit and has some balls.
I am a smoker, and I agree that the couple should split up.
My ex-husband (and no, we didn’t split up over the smoking issue), even though he didn’t smoke, lured me in with “I don’t mind – both my parents smoke. Go ahead, smoke in my truck, I don’t care”. Fast foward to after the rings were put on the fingers, then it was non-stop bitching and moaning about my smoking. “I thought you’d eventually quit” “Um, what made you think that?” “Well, everyone’s always trying to quit” “Not me”.
Years of nagging from him. It felt like every 35 seconds he had a comment to make. And why?? If he was so against it, why marry a smoker? Which I asked him many times. You hate it? Then don’t marry someone who does it. Save yourselves both a lot of hassle, trouble and fights.
It scarred me enough so that for many years after, someone being a NON-smoker was a deal breaker for me.
Yeah, I’ve cut back (2 packs a day to one pack every three days) and only smoke outside now. But those were MY choices, based on internal decisions, and I appreciate not being nagged to death about it. I have done it on my own time, for the best reasons, which were my own. And if I quit, it’ll successful because it’ll be what I want, and not someone elses goal.
WHY DO GAY PEOPLE WANT TO GET MARRIED SO THEY CAN FEEL EQUAL TO HETEROSEXUALS.IF BEING EQUAL IS THEIR GOAL,THERE IS A MUCH EASIER WAY.LETS MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR ANYONE TO GET OR BE MARRIED .WE WOULD HAVE 80% OF STRAIGHT COUPLES WHO ARE CURRNTLY MARRIED NO LONGER WANTING TO BE MARRIED ON OUR SIDE IMMEDIATLEY.IT WOULD BE EASIER AND MORE DOABLE……
Did anybody see that apple has donated $100,000 to no on Prop 8? Word.
Dear Mr Savage,
I have tried to contact you on your e-mail but my mail bounced back. I hope it will find you here.
My e-mail address is:
malgorzata.koraszewska@racjonalista.pl
Dear Mr. Savage
I would like to ask your permission to translate your article “In Defense of Dignity” into Polish. I’ve never read any stronger argument in defense of dignity and my personal experience makes that your arguments feel all the more urgent.
I represent a website http://www.racjonalista.pl To let you know who we are, I am sending the first paragraph from our “credo”:
Poland – a country of packed churches; a country where millions enthusiastically welcomed “the Polish Pope”; a country with a ban on virtually all abortions and with restrictions on prenatal tests; a country in which the Church claims the right to be involved in legislative processes about laws concerning neither the Church nor religion; a country in which the Church would like to tell scientists what should and what should not be a subject of their research. In this country we are trying to promote rational thinking – RACJONALISTA.pl is currently the biggest center for publicizing free-thinkers and rationalists in Poland.
As our website does not generate any income and all our authors and translators work without pay, there unfortunately is no money to pay for the publication rights.
Sincerely yours
Malgorzata Koraszewska
way to plug obama in the end. I like it.
I WILL NOT vote for Barack Obama. My ability and my friends ability to marry someone of our own sex is not as important as the rest of my life. Sorry, I don’t want a depression because of a liberal president- we already have one because of a liberal congress.
So Dan, as much as I love all your sex advice, SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT POLITICS!!!!
How much $$$ did it take to make the column?
Woo-hoo! We need more Hollies and Jennifers in this world! Happy people simply don’t want to blow other people up. Go Holly…go Holly…
Quitting smoking, maintaining a healthy weight, stopping addictive behaviors are all lifelong struggles. If you demand this from your partner, what equally difficult committment are you willing to make. I bet she can help you come up with something.