Long story short: I cheated on my boyfriend three years ago. I admitted it nine months ago, and we’ve been in couples counseling for six months. My BF is very responsive in therapy, where we’re working on his control issues, and he says everything the therapist expects him to during a session. Twenty-four hours later, though, he’ll say, “I was listening to Dan Savage’s podcast…” then take back everything he said to our therapist. He then ignores our therapist’s advice because of some advice you gave to a differently situated couple!
Could you please tell your readers and listeners who are in counseling to ignore you and listen to their therapists?
Your No-Good Counsel
I won’t go that far, YNGC—I will not be ignored—but I will go this far: It sounds like your boyfriend is still angry about the affair and isn’t being fully honest during those therapy sessions. He’s saying what he thinks the therapist wants to hear instead of owning his anger—pardon my psychobabble—and justifies his postsession backsliding/truth-telling by pointing to some fool thing I might have said on the podcast.
You can tell him that I said it’s fine if he’s still angry, and that’s something he might want to talk with your therapist about, but I would appreciate being left out of it. And you can tell him I also said this: If he wants to stay with you, then he needs to forgive you and work on rebuilding trust. If he can’t forgive you, he needs to leave you. But to jerk you around like this—even if you’re the one who transgressed—is a dick move. And it’s not the kind of dick move that I want to be associated with so, again, he should leave me out of it.
All of that said, YNGC, I’m thinking your boyfriend isn’t being honest with your therapist—about his anger, about your relationship, about anything—because he maybekindasorta perceives these sessions to be a joint effort to shift the blame for your affair onto his shoulders. (A joint effort on the part of you and your therapist.) You say you’re “working on his control issues” during these sessions. That’s nice. If your boyfriend has control issues, YNGC, then by all means work on ’em. If you’re not working on your own issues—if your therapist doesn’t think you have any issues—then I don’t blame your boyfriend for not taking your therapist or these sessions seriously.
I’m a 24-year-old female and I’ve just started seeing a great guy. The chemistry was insane—he’s a great kisser, he loves going down—and this had me thinking that the sex would also be great.
We’ve now slept together a few times and… it could be better. He’s got all the moves—not to mention being really well endowed—but he just lies there like a dead fish. Very little thrusting and he doesn’t use his hands. I’ve asked him to do it doggie style (some improvement) and I’ve said stuff like “Faster! Harder!” (also with some improvement). But any momentum he gets is fleeting. It’s like he’s thinking too much about the act instead of losing himself in it.
I really like him and enjoy his company. But sexual compatibility is really important, too! How can I address the “dead fish” issue? Is this going to be a deal breaker?
Everything But The Sex
He appears to be concentrating (“thinking too much about the act”), he keeps thrusting to a minimum, he isn’t using his hands in ways that might heighten your arousal or his own… hmm…
You might want to ask this great guy—who does great with at least one sex act (oral), but not great with at least one other (vaginal intercourse), but has already demonstrated the ability to improve (if only fleetingly)—if he used to have a problem with premature ejaculation.
Based on your description of what he’s doing/not doing, EBTS, it sounds like your boyfriend is following the standard-issue advice given to premature ejaculators. To train themselves to last longer, preemies are advised to concentrate, to pay close attention to their arousal levels (so they don’t get to the “moment of no return” too quickly), to thrust slowly and carefully, and to not overload themselves with too much additional stimuli (groping your breasts with his hands, say, while he’s inside you). Your boyfriend may not be really “losing himself” in sex because he fears it will result in him coming too soon. This would also explain why he’s a different man—and a better lay—when he’s going down on you.
If I’m right, and PE is the issue, you can work on upping the intensity levels. It’ll take time, EBTS, but it sounds like this guy is worth the investment.
I’m a 27-year-old gay man in a three-year relationship. My boyfriend has always been the mature one, I the immature one. Yesterday, I discovered he has a special e-mail account to look for sex with strangers. I saw chats and other evidence of cheating. We are not having safe sex since quite a long time. We are planning to start living together soon. He has always told me that he is incapable of cheating and many times said that if one of us would fail and cheat, it would be me.
I haven’t talked to him. I cannot sleep.
Help My Disappointed Heart
Your boyfriend is a manipulative POS. He wanted the freedom to fuck other guys but didn’t want his boyfriend to enjoy the same freedom. So he made you feel like you were the problem—he convinced you that you were the immature one and that you were the one most likely to cheat, he maliciously undermined your self-esteem—so that you would be too busy worrying about and scrutinizing your own shortcomings to notice his. DTMFA.
BEFORE WE GO: So… I’ve got some space to kill, and not sure what to do with it.
Do I come to the defense of J. Michael Bailey, the Northwestern University prof being attacked for inviting his adult students to stay after his popular human sexuality class to watch two adults engage in a wholly relevant display of human sexuality? Do I beat the hell out of Maryland’s backstabbing, born-again bigot Sam “Political Suicide” Arora? (Don’t have the room to unpack his transgression, dear readers, so you’ll just have to trust me on this: Send a furious e-mail expressing nonspecific disgust to sam.arora@house.state.md.us.)
Do I ask my readers to go to www
.recalltherepublican8.com and make a donation? Or go off on the latest anti-gay religious bigot to be exposed as a hypocritical sexperv? (Again, no room to unpack here—you’ll just have to Google “Reverend Grant Storms,” “arrested for masturbating in a public park,” and “children were present” for all the details.)
Or do I use this space to promote the upcoming release of the It Gets Better book—It Gets Better: Coming Out, Overcoming Bullying, and Creating a Life Worth Living, edited by Dan Savage and Terry Miller—which comes out March 22 and can be preordered now at www.itgetsbetter.org or Amazon.com?
Oh shit. Out of space.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
” You guys can say that it’s all women’s fault for being deceitful. But if you don’t take it into consideration, you are not actually being a good lover, regardless of how you see yourself.”
Are you for real?! You think that if you are DELIBERATELY sending cues that you are enjoying the action, it’s the MAN’s fault that you’re not satisfied with the experience? And HE’S the lousy lover?!?
Why do you expect him to do all the work?!? Not only is he the one ‘pounding away’, but he hears heavy moaning from you, which he reasonably interprets as “she’s getting close to orgasm- I’d better not stop until she gets there!”, so he keeps going for YOUR pleasure, but if he doesn’t stop and CHECK IN WITH YOU, HE is the bad lay? No wonder your sex life is shite.
“Would it bother you if a man paused after screwing for about twenty minutes, and asked if you wanted to change activities (or positions)?”
Why is it reasonable to expect HIM to stop the action to ask you how you are, but it’s somehow unreasonable for you to just go ahead and be HONEST about it?? Are you ever planning on taking responsibility for your own pleasure, or lack thereof, or will you just continue putting your dissatisfaction on the man? Maybe he just wanted a quick blowjob! But he’s putting forth the effort to satisfy you, and all you can do is whine that he’s not doing it right. Open your goddamned mouth and TELL HIM, or STFU. I swear to god, you DESERVE crappy sex.
It’s like if you asked someone, “What do you want to eat?” And they say, “Whatever, I don’t care.” And you say “How about Chinese?” And they say “Fine.” And then after dinner they say you’re inconsiderate because they didn’t want Chinese. WTF?!? THIS is why a lot of men don’t like women.
Please stop telling men here what ‘women’ like, and start telling the ones you’re fucking what YOU like.
@159, see @147. Everything you say could apply to clitoral stimulation. Most women didn’t tell their men that they needed it in order to have orgasms. Most women didn’t start getting clitoral stimulation from their men until our culture told men to do that.
“THIS is why a lot of men don’t like women”
Yes, I get that. Glad we don’t know each other in real life.
BTW, would people stop saying that I’m imposing my view on the rest of the world by making a generalization? Mileage varies, yadda yadda, but most women really do need some clitoral stimulation, and letting men know that is no insult to the fewer women who don’t like clitoral stimulation.
I’m open to evidence (like Suzy’s testimony) that some women do like lengthy PIV. But KL, perversecowgirl, Chicago girl, Frederica Bimble and I, are here saying that we don’t. It’s not unreasonable to generalize from our cumulative experience. Individual preferences may vary, but generalizations are not inherently invalid.
EricaP — I think I ought to chime in to give my 2 cents.
After I’ve had a great deal of down action, including small orgasms, I do love lengthy PIV, most of the times I can’t get enough of it ; when I do get enough, I’m not afraid anymore to tell so. During PIV I try to repress my moans to help my partner stay focussed, because it often ends sooner than I’d want.
I would not mind at all if my patner stopped and asked me whether I still enjoyed it after 20 minutes. I’m sure I would give a pretty hot answer.
But! Whenever I’ve not had good oral first, I find PIV dull, boring and tiresome, and 5 minutes is enough ; the longer it lasts, the more I hate it.
When I was younger I only met bad lovers. One would come inside me and have no expectation of enjoyment for me. It lasted as long as he felt equal to, some minutes, and that was already too long for me, but as a first-timer I was to shy to ask for it to stop. The next relationship bragged beforehand that he would make me moan. I was all, nice, I’d like to check that out. But I felt nothing more than before. So I did moan to make it stop, since that was the codeworld, so to speak. From then on, I often used moanings to make PIV stop – since guys would never offer oral and good girls don’t ask (a real man knows how to pleasure a woman better than herself, don’t you know ?).
So I moaned my way out of PIV until I read somewhere another way to make it stop : gently rub your partner’s perineum with your fingers while you’re being pounded away, if it’s not enough make a tight ring around his penis with your thumb and your index and voila. No need to pretend you’re enjoying yourself. Amazingly, the husband had no trouble having sex with me that way, after it had become crystal-clear that I did not feel a thing. Eventually he did request me “to fake-moan in order to highten his orgasm”. Asshole.
I’m much happier now that I’ve discovered respectful, shared and oral sex thanks to an awesome guy ! No more faked moans. I felt like a prostitute, now I feel like a woman.
I’m with EricaP, I don’t like long PiV either. Sometimes it really hurts. But I feel bad telling him we’re stopping when he didn’t get off, and it took me a long time to figure out how to tell him if I realize I’m going to get sore soon and I’d like him to stop as soon as he can. Too often that can come across that I’m bored and rushing him, and then that messes it up for him. When I was younger I regrettably just let my boyfriend at the time do it as long as he wanted, trying to ignore it when it started to hurt. One time it hurt so bad that I had to stop and wound up curled up in a ball crying. After that I started trying to speak up, though unfortunately I can’t say that he ever asked me if I was OK during sex after that. Today I’ll stop a guy if he’s hurting me, though I’ve also learned ways to tell a guy if I’m going to be hitting a limit soon. The best way to do it without making him feel rushed is to put on your best sexy voice, grope and kiss him passionately, and moan “I want to feel you cum inside me.” Of course, that does take some style to pull off, and it took me *years* to figure it out. But the bottom line is, guys, please listen to EricaP. You might just be dating someone like my 19 year old self who doesn’t know how to say what she needs yet, and a little understanding and space will be amazing to her.
Dan, thank you for your advice to Help My Disappointed Heart. A very similar thing happened to me (secret email for sex w/ strangers and emotional manipulation). I left him the day I found out. I am almost a year out of that relationship of 5 years and I am SO HAPPY without him! Moving on! DTMFA!!!
@ 160: Do you honestly believe that before “our culture” rolled around, that NO women were getting clitoral stimulation? I think the ones who weren’t getting it were the ones who expected men to just magically be able to determine what they wanted. I’m willing to bet that, throughout history, women who didn’t put the responsibility for their pleasure entirely on the man were probably getting off quite well. And exactly what do you mean by “our culture”? Time/place?
@ 162: “Eventually he did request me ‘to fake-moan in order to highten his orgasm’. Asshole.”
So, you asking him to give you oral until you come is fine, but him asking you to do something incredibly simple like MOAN so that HE can get off makes him an asshole? Right…
@ 163: “But the bottom line is, guys, please listen to EricaP. You might just be dating someone like my 19 year old self who doesn’t know how to say what she needs yet, and a little understanding and space will be amazing to her.”
I just don’t understand why you are giving advice to the GUYS, instead of telling the 19 year old GIRLS to open their mouths and TELL the guys who are fucking them what is going on with them. Do females share any responsibility for the sex being good?!
Put the shoe on the other foot:
Ladies, when you’re having PIV sex, you need to check in with him every twenty minutes, and make sure he’s still enjoying it. Otherwise, you’re not a good lover. If HE isn’t enjoying it, you need to stop, even if you’re unsatisfied.
GGG goes both ways.
Exasperated — I understand your exasperation and I generally agree with your conclusions. People have to learn to speak up for themselves and take responsibility for their own happiness, sexual and otherwise. However, you are failing to acknowledge a HUGE social divide between men and women generally — and I think this is what EricaP is getting at more than anything.
Women in American culture (and I think in many cultures) are socially conditioned to be more nurturing and accommodating of their partners whereas men are not. Men have to learn to think of others whereas women have to learn to think of themselves. As we gain experience and hopefully wisdom, both sexes become more balanced — men naturally think of others and women aren’t afraid to think of themselves too.
As a result, women, as a gross overgeneralization tend towards indirect communication and men towards more direct — the great Mars-Venus divide. Women are far more likely to “fake it” or put up with less than stellar sex for the sake of their partners, especially as it is a bigger deal to a man’s ego than it is a woman (women don’t generally worry about being studs or having performance anxiety whereas men are constantly comparing themselves to one another in this regard). Sure, as women get older and more experienced, they tend to be more empowered and speak up for themselves. However, some may never. So there is some truth to what Erica is saying — Men are more likely to do what makes them feel good whereas women are more likely to focus on making sure their partner gets off. Especially when you throw in our Puritan roots where there is still a lot of shame regarding female sexuality, this really can’t be surprising.
I’m not saying it’s right or something that should be encouraged, just that we shouldn’t be blind to the cultural landscape either and pretend that men and women function in the same manner.
@165 I said “most women,” not “no women.”
Yes, women should take responsibility for their own sexual pleasure. I do. But many don’t, currently, and that’s a fact. If it’s fine with you for your woman to endure sex with you, rather than enjoy it, then continue on your merry way.
@166, I absolutely ask how his jaw is doing after 20 minutes of oral. If he’s sore, I thank him and find another way to get to orgasm.
@165 : I don’t know about your culture, but in mine a young woman who asks for specific sex acts “is a whore”. And as you know, whores get raped, “that’d teach them”. Young women know and most won’t ask. Mature women will. I hope.
As for your comment on me : keep track, will ya ? The first boyfriends never did oral. The husband never did oral. I never asked ’cause I was a well-bred good girl, and all I got was shitty PIV. Though knowing I had no sexual pleasure myself, not before, not during, not after, not ever, the husband asked for fake moans for heightening his orgasms – which he always had, even if I hurt and asked him to stop now, he wouldn’t stop until he came inside me. That’s as assholish as it gets. The husband has now been out of the picture for some years, divorce proceedings are slow over here.
The now-boyfriend is of the pretty unusual kind (for here) who gives a fuck about his female partners, and he loves giving oral and I can’t get enough of PIV with him – and I try not to moan, at his own request, though it’s real heartfelt moans now, because it would make it too hot for him and it would cut short our shared pleasure. And besides, we 69 for oral : I like all of him, and there’s no way I’d let him have a piece of me while not having a piece of him. It’s mutual and shared Savage love. Get it ?
@169, can I just say that you are the hottest thing around?
EricaP : thanks, you made my day. Well, night, actually… I should get some sleep now.
“I don’t know about your culture, but in mine a young woman who asks for specific sex acts “is a whore”. And as you know, whores get raped, “that’d teach them”. Young women know and most won’t ask. Mature women will. I hope.”
Wow, I feel sorry for you. You grew up in a culture where a woman who has the audacity to tell a man that 20 mins of PIV sex is plenty is ripe for the rapin’? Where was that, Iran?
@ Erica, it’s cute how, because I believe women should take responsibility for themselves, including their sexual pleasure, that you assume I’m a guy. I would have thought that expecting women to act like grown ups would be a feminist perspective.
Men tend to be so clueless about what gets women off, they aren’t given a manual. It’s up to WOMEN to tell them what they like, and vice-versa. But portraying women as just too weak and spineless to be able to speak up for themselves is repugnant.
@172, you won’t register, so it’s hard to figure you out. But you’re quite the feminist, with your insistence that women speak up for themselves in bed. Doesn’t mean you have experienced sex with a guy.
So, have you been fucked by a guy for an hour? Often? And did you like it?
Exasperated — I think it’s sad that you interpret such things as weak and spineless. It seems that you’ve taken a very masculine-based viewpoint and want everyone to conform to that, both men and women. It’s funny how “equality” can get so misconstrued that way.
How about something a tad more balanced? Perhaps encouraging women to speak up for themselves (and fostering an environment where that is safe, encouraged and appreciated) but also encouraging men to consider their partners? It can go both ways.
Answering a few questions:
First, I don’t know what most of my female friends prefer, sexually, because I usually don’t get into that level of detailed discussion about sex with them. However, the ones I’ve known well enough to have discussed it with seem to favor vaginal sex, the lengthier duration the better. I don’t know how common these opinions are; I’m only saying that we shouldn’t assume much about what women like or dislike, as a class. Maybe most women don’t like such a long duration. However, they need to tell the partner, if that’s how they feel.
Personally, I prefer vaginal sex. If I had to choose either/or between vaginal sex and other things like oral, I would almost always choose vaginal. So that may explain why I like doing it for longer than other people may. However, I have a good partner for it; with a different partner, maybe my preference would change, who knows.
I wouldn’t mind if the partner paused during the act to ask me how I was doing. However, frequent inquiries could become tiresome. More importantly, I take moaning to be a sign of pleasure, so I definitely would not fault someone who keeps going when the partner is essentially communicating, Yes!
I can see why Exasperated is exasperated on feminist grounds. It’s not okay that women give mixed messages about sex because they’re insecure. Why would it ever be good for women to act like they want it when they really don’t? Isn’t this precisely the lousy excuse some men use for not respecting women’s wishes about sex? You have to say what you want; you can’t say (or moan) one thing and expect your partner to conclude that you mean the opposite. Meanwhile, the partner needs to respect your wishes. To me, that’s balance. I can see why some of you would argue that women need men to be more attentive, but honestly I don’t think that’s a pro-woman approach in the end. In short, expecting one party to be a mind-reader while the other one dissembles is neither good nor balanced.
Suzy, I hate to break it to you, but in most long-term relationships there are times when one person wants sex and the other person is not feeling horny, but does it out of love and devotion. When I choose to have sex with my husband, even though I’d rather sleep, isn’t it good for me to pretend to be enthusiastic, and, yes, moan and writhe, rather than act like I’m doing him a favor?
Personally, I don’t believe in faking it. If other people do, okay, but then they can’t complain when their partners are so successfully duped by the fakery that they don’t pause every 20 minutes to ask whether the moans are real.
I also think it would be bad if you were having sex with your partner and it was hurting you or uncomfortable, but you faked enjoying it anyway. Then he becomes out of touch with what you’re feeling in a serious way that’s not his fault and that he probably wouldn’t appreciate, if he knew the truth.
Suzy, you’re a woman, right? You stop sex right away when it’s not so fun for you? You tell your partner, “I’m not enjoying this blow-job right now”?
I don’t ever fake orgasm, but I’ll feign enthusiasm for something that my husband likes.
Somehow guys don’t have a problem with generalizations about “don’t use your teeth during blowjobs.” Sure, each one could just speak up and tell his partner ahead of time, “hey, honey, please don’t use your teeth.” But since most guys don’t like it, it’s reasonable to spread the word.
Similarly, it’s reasonable to spread the word that most women don’t appreciate an hour of intercourse, and even the ones who love lengthy intercourse don’t generally mind guys checking after twenty minutes if they want more.
A suggestion for the dilemma of how to indicate “I’d like you to finish up soon, please” while still sounding encouraging and all…
Whatever reasonable variation of “Come for me, baby” or “I want you to come inside me now” or whatever seems most natural and best fits your wishes. Your tone conveys the “you are doing a good job, you sexy stud”, but your words convey the “Yeah, that’s enough now”…
After that, any moans can reasonably be considered performance enhancement instead of false communication, especially if you mix in the occasional enthusiastic, breathy “come on” amongst your moans and “Yes!”es.
(if it’s a regular problem in a relationship of he likes to go on all night and she prefers shorter, and you find it awkward to discuss mid-act, you might pre-arrange two “signals”–one for “I’ve had enough for me, but will keep going longer for your sake” and one for “Please stop real soon now”–that way, he never has to cut short before she’s done, and can distinguish between “I’m done” and “you’d better be done soon, too”…)
I like your compromise
“you sexy stud”, “that’s enough now”…
And this: >>> After that, any moans can reasonably be considered performance enhancement instead of false communication, especially if you mix in the occasional enthusiastic, breathy “come on” amongst your moans and “Yes!”es.
So what was the evidence, again, for the claim that most women don’t like it? I thought we recently finished discussing the fact that I like it, those of my friends with whom I’ve discussed it like it, and it seems strange to brand one group’s preferences as the “normal” ones on the basis of anecdote.
And if we’re going to compare this to using teeth during a blow job, in fact what you’re saying is that it’s the blower’s responsibility to ask the blowee–who will be laying there reluctant to say anything truthful–whether the current use of teeth should be continued. I find that… odd. I’d rather encourage anyone who’s uncomfortable to say so, and yes, I do say so when that happens. Yes, I’m a woman, and I’m not really sure why you need to ask again. Do you doubt it, because my preferences are abnormal to you? This is the problem, right here, with the assumptions.
@Suzy, I put you in the camp (per @175) that doesn’t mind a guy asking around 20 minutes in whether you’re still loving it. Like sissoucat (@162). There are certainly twice as many women posting on this thread to say that they don’t like lengthy sex, and those that do, say they don’t mind a guy checking in once. It may be anecdotal, but it seems like useful information to pass on.
Also, many women (plus, you know, Science!) agree that many women moan & writhe to get intercourse to end more quickly. I’m not making that up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20480…
@182, also, your hijacking of the blowjob analogy doesn’t work. Most guys never like teeth, not at the start, not halfway through. So we spread the word, so that kind women remember to avoid teeth.
For lengthy intercourse, most women do enjoy quite a bit of intercourse. But most women don’t enjoy an HOUR of intercourse. So, kind men should try to figure out where that line is, when the intercourse has gone beyond what their partner likes. And popular culture (like Savage Love) can help by spreading the word that this is an issue for many women.
While I agree that we should all be invested in the pleasure of our partners, I am also in the group that doesn’t think it should be a man’s job to be the one to make sure that everyone is enjoying themselves.
As a woman, I’m familiar with women being taught to keep people happy. But the fact that you’re unwilling to speak up for what you want should not be indicative of the man doing something wrong.
The only time I’ve ever had truly bad sex is when I didn’t speak up and ask for what I wanted. I think it would be unfair to blame that on the man. When I was younger, I thought that asking for something different would make me seem difficult and not worth the time. Now that I’ve grown up and started asking for, and even sometimes taking, what I want, I’ve learned that not only are men usually not upset by this, but they seem to think it’s pretty hot.
Just because lots of women moan for encouragement, doesn’t mean that its the right way to get a session to end, or that men should assume that they should just be done now because she’s moaning. If all guys thought that way, I’d never get off, because the second I started getting close, they’d figure I wanted them to stop.
When my partner is moaning, I assume it’s because I’m doing something right, and when I’m moaning, its because he is. I’ve never faked moaning, possibly exaggerated, but never faked.
I also would prefer not to make generalizations about what “most” people like. Most people like things that get them off, and Dan’s column shows that this means different things for different people.
Ask for what you want. Have a sexy convo beforehand about your likes, wants, and needs. Move his hand where you want it to go. It’s as unfair to ask him to do all the work as it would be for him to ask you.
BTW, I’ve encountered several men who’ve asked for teeth during blowjobs.
@KateRose – “If all guys thought that way, I’d never get off.”
You’re all gung ho about communication and speaking up for what you want. When he withdraws his penis, and you want it back in, just moan for more. I’m not about blame. I’m just trying to help men understand what’s going on in bed. As I said @161, generalizations are not inherently invalid. Most women like sex to last between 5 and 20 minutes. The ones who like it to go longer have no trouble saying so, if the guy stops at 20 minutes. But guys should not feel cultural pressure to go for an hour to prove how manly they are or to please their woman, if they are just assuming she likes it and the odds are that she doesn’t.
No, I don’t mind if a partner occasionally asks how things are going, but the key point here is that I don’t think he has any obligation to ask, nor is he a bad lover if he does not.
This is especially true when the other person is moaning in pleasure. Some women may indeed do this on purpose despite not feeling pleasure–or more to the point, when they actually want to communicate “I’m done” or “let’s get this over with”. However, this dissembling doesn’t create any obligation for the partner, and I don’t think it’s a good idea in the first place.
More importantly, I’m not convinced that “most” women want a 5-20 min duration of sex, so that it should be accepted as a norm. In fact, appearing on the same page as the Science article quoted above was a link to another article, suggesting that female orgasm is associated with intercourse duration: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19170…. Maybe it’s not true for all, and maybe even when it is true, a woman might not care to have sex that long on any particular occasion or with any particular partner. However, my point is: why insist on a particular preference as the default? There’s so much variation, even in the preferences of the same individual on difference occasions. Spreading the word that a particular way is the preferred way doesn’t seem helpful to me.
I don’t think I was “hijacking” the blow job example; it simply may not work as well as intended. Like KateRose said, some guys like it. Some people might not know what the normal preference is, or might not even recognize when the teeth are slipping into the action! So I think the best way is for people to honestly say what they like or dislike, and worry much less about what’s normal.
Hi Suzy,
Can you get full-text for that article? I can’t tell if the female orgasm was correlating with intercourse in the 15-20 minute range, or if they did find that orgasm correlates with 45-60 minutes of intercourse. That would make a big difference to my argument, but so far, all I see is that they show that short intercourse (maybe <5 minutes) is inversely correlated with female orgasm, which doesn’t surprise me.
@EricaP
“You’re all gung ho about communication and speaking up for what you want. When he withdraws his penis, and you want it back in, just moan for more.”
While I get what you’re saying, and I would do that if it occurred, my point was this:
If a man assumed that I was moaning because I wanted him to hurry up and finish, and therefore decided to stop, while I could tell him to go back to what he was doing before, he’d be back at square one. I don’t know how it is for you, but if I’m in a rythym where I’m close, and the action suddenly stops, I’m no longer close. I’m not going to be grateful that he was sensitive enough to ask me if I wanted to keep going, what the hell did he think I was moaning about?
I would be ok with a check in, possibly, if it didn’t involve stopping or sounding like a check in. An occasional, “Do you like that?” is ok, so long as its not so often that it sounds like insecurity, and can even be ‘dirty talk’.
But, like Suzy, I don’t think it’s anyone’s responsibility to ask if they’re doing the right thing if what they’re doing is getting positive feedback.
From my experience, and in conversations I’ve had with friends, the people who seemed to enjoy sex the most were the people that communicated what they wanted before, during, and after. Most people exchange at least a few words prior to sex, so bring it up. And if it’s a one night stand, why should you be more concerned with their feelings than they are with yours. If they’re doing something wrong, tell them. You’ll never see them again!
One quirk that I have occasionally is to giggle and make jokes. I personally think that sex can be funny, and laughing during can make it more enjoyable. Because I know that this could confuse a partner, I mention it before sex ever happens. This means that, if I do giggle, they’re not self conscious that they’re doing something wrong. Because its something that I sometimes need to do (as in, can’t help it), I communicate that in advance so there is no misunderstanding.
Based on my circle, the men have a tendency to have better sex than the women, as a whole, because they ask for what they want. As soon as I took on that philosophy, I had better sex too. Yes, we should try to please our partners, but we can’t do that if they won’t communicate. And a lot of the people that are expecting someone to just figure it out, aren’t going to answer “What do you want me to do to you?” in the first place.
(I apologize in advance for run-ons and grammatical errors that might be in this, I’m still working on my first cup of coffee.)
So, if he pulls out even to change positions, then you slip back, away from your pleasure? That’s true for me if I’m on the edge of orgasm, but that neediness wouldn’t go on and on and on. And, actually, backing off from an orgasm and then going towards it again can heighten the orgasm. Not so for you?
For me (and, I believe, for many women), things get numb after 15 minutes of pounding. Changing positions helps some, but, once I’m numb, the whole activity isn’t sexual to me anymore. It’s hard to convey that in the moment without shutting down his pleasure. And hard to convey that ahead of time without scaring him off.
I still think it’s less of a burden on you to convey that you’re still loving the lengthy sex, because hey, you’re telling him something positive & sexy. And, even for you, wouldn’t there come a point, two hours in, three hours in, where you’d like the pounding to stop already? What do you think would be a standard time when guys should stop, even if they haven’t come? Or should the woman always have to tell the guy, “stop, I can’t take any more”, in your opinion?
Offering a compromise, in the spirit of @180…
I have been able to say things like “oh, you’ve worn me out, big boy” without causing offense. So, okay, the burden on me to convey that I’ve had enough isn’t that heavy.
I’m just new to this whole problem, of how to stop sex when I’m numb but he isn’t done. I like to be GGG and keep going if he’s close, but I can’t take the pounding forever. I do like 180’s suggestions for giving the guy a clue that I’d like him to finish up — “Come in me, big boy.” But I’ll ask again, if any guys are still reading — does it bug you to be told to come, or is that okay? It bugs me to be told to come (too much pressure), but maybe that’s just me.
I could hardly get through YNGC’s letter without having an aneurysm. She starts off mentioning she cheated, then devotes the rest of the letter to a shit-list of observations that were basically all about how he isn’t forgiving her and getting the relationship back on four wheels in the timely and attentive manner she has decided is appropriate for the level of “indiscretion” she committed.
She cheated on him, then lied to him (whether by commission or omission; she was telling lies and/or living one) for 27 months, but now they have been in therapy for 6 months to deal with… her cheating? Her lying? No, they are working on HIS “control issues”, and she reports that she finds him to be “responsive” to this therapy with about the same tone someone might describe their dog’s progress at obedience school. But the main reason she wrote was to tell Dan that she objects to the boyfriend finding any way of dealing with his feelings outside of the tightly-controlled circumstances and timeframe she has approved. I don’t think it’s solely the boyfriend’s “control issues” that need to be examined here.
Of course, we need to note, as always, that we have only heard one side of the story here. Never in the time I have been reading this column has a writer provided so much evidence that someone in the relationship is behaving poorly and needs some advice to straighten them out. But the amazing thing is that all of the evidence she provided points to herself as the person who needs straightening out. She hardly mentions the guy at all, except in dismissive terms. If she’s like that when she’s putting on her best face for this letter that will be read by millions… what is she like in the relationship?
The level of empathy she displayed in her letter was right up there with “it puts the lotion on the skin, or it gets the hose again”. Advice for YNGC’s boyfriend: RUN. He needs to take whatever he can fit in a backpack and get the hell out of there. YNGC isn’t just incidentally crazy, she is systematically doing everything she can to absolve herself of any wrong-doing and make it all his fault – except even if it was all his fault, she doesn’t want to push the issue so much that he actually leaves, because she is more attached to her need for control than she is to him. She wants to keep him around, keep him under her thumb, keep him feeling guilty for her actions. She is manipulative, codependent, and didn’t once say a single word about love, how she feels about him (other than displeasure that he isn’t meeting her timetable for how quickly he should be forgiving her), remorse for her actions, the pain he might be experiencing knowing that he was her chump for the past three years… nothing. Just irritation that her efforts to mess with this guy’s head were being thwarted by an outside source of information that she didn’t control, a situation she attempted to remedy by asking Dan to not do his job, to not be Dan.
For both of their sakes, but most especially for the sake of the boyfriend: they need to dump each other already. This isn’t a relationship, it’s Abu Ghraib.
@ 192: Well, haha, there are different way of being “told” to come. I always appreciate a little verbal encouragement if she’s ready. Or, if she’s feeling really dom, I’m happy to comply with something more direct.
Similarly, I may tell my partner to come, but only in the context of helping her get off.
If you still have the problem of “how to stop sex when I’m numb but he isn’t done,” encourage him to pull out and finish himself, because (hopefully) when you tell him “it really turns me on,” he’ll be considerate enough to accommodate you.
@194 – you mean, like encouraging him to come all over my breasts or face – yes, I could see how that could be a win/win. And I’d be happy to lend a hand — my hand’s not numb 🙂
HMDH, you deserve to be with a man who fulfills you in every way possible and doesn’t treat you like you’re less than him. You are an amazing person and don’t let him tell you otherwise! So DTMFA and find yourself a real man. Mmmmhmmm!