Long story short: I cheated on my boyfriend three years ago. I admitted it nine months ago, and we’ve been in couples counseling for six months. My BF is very responsive in therapy, where we’re working on his control issues, and he says everything the therapist expects him to during a session. Twenty-four hours later, though, he’ll say, “I was listening to Dan Savage’s podcast…” then take back everything he said to our therapist. He then ignores our therapist’s advice because of some advice you gave to a differently situated couple!
Could you please tell your readers and listeners who are in counseling to ignore you and listen to their therapists?
Your No-Good Counsel
I won’t go that far, YNGC—I will not be ignored—but I will go this far: It sounds like your boyfriend is still angry about the affair and isn’t being fully honest during those therapy sessions. He’s saying what he thinks the therapist wants to hear instead of owning his anger—pardon my psychobabble—and justifies his postsession backsliding/truth-telling by pointing to some fool thing I might have said on the podcast.
You can tell him that I said it’s fine if he’s still angry, and that’s something he might want to talk with your therapist about, but I would appreciate being left out of it. And you can tell him I also said this: If he wants to stay with you, then he needs to forgive you and work on rebuilding trust. If he can’t forgive you, he needs to leave you. But to jerk you around like this—even if you’re the one who transgressed—is a dick move. And it’s not the kind of dick move that I want to be associated with so, again, he should leave me out of it.
All of that said, YNGC, I’m thinking your boyfriend isn’t being honest with your therapist—about his anger, about your relationship, about anything—because he maybekindasorta perceives these sessions to be a joint effort to shift the blame for your affair onto his shoulders. (A joint effort on the part of you and your therapist.) You say you’re “working on his control issues” during these sessions. That’s nice. If your boyfriend has control issues, YNGC, then by all means work on ’em. If you’re not working on your own issues—if your therapist doesn’t think you have any issues—then I don’t blame your boyfriend for not taking your therapist or these sessions seriously.
I’m a 24-year-old female and I’ve just started seeing a great guy. The chemistry was insane—he’s a great kisser, he loves going down—and this had me thinking that the sex would also be great.
We’ve now slept together a few times and… it could be better. He’s got all the moves—not to mention being really well endowed—but he just lies there like a dead fish. Very little thrusting and he doesn’t use his hands. I’ve asked him to do it doggie style (some improvement) and I’ve said stuff like “Faster! Harder!” (also with some improvement). But any momentum he gets is fleeting. It’s like he’s thinking too much about the act instead of losing himself in it.
I really like him and enjoy his company. But sexual compatibility is really important, too! How can I address the “dead fish” issue? Is this going to be a deal breaker?
Everything But The Sex
He appears to be concentrating (“thinking too much about the act”), he keeps thrusting to a minimum, he isn’t using his hands in ways that might heighten your arousal or his own… hmm…
You might want to ask this great guy—who does great with at least one sex act (oral), but not great with at least one other (vaginal intercourse), but has already demonstrated the ability to improve (if only fleetingly)—if he used to have a problem with premature ejaculation.
Based on your description of what he’s doing/not doing, EBTS, it sounds like your boyfriend is following the standard-issue advice given to premature ejaculators. To train themselves to last longer, preemies are advised to concentrate, to pay close attention to their arousal levels (so they don’t get to the “moment of no return” too quickly), to thrust slowly and carefully, and to not overload themselves with too much additional stimuli (groping your breasts with his hands, say, while he’s inside you). Your boyfriend may not be really “losing himself” in sex because he fears it will result in him coming too soon. This would also explain why he’s a different man—and a better lay—when he’s going down on you.
If I’m right, and PE is the issue, you can work on upping the intensity levels. It’ll take time, EBTS, but it sounds like this guy is worth the investment.
I’m a 27-year-old gay man in a three-year relationship. My boyfriend has always been the mature one, I the immature one. Yesterday, I discovered he has a special e-mail account to look for sex with strangers. I saw chats and other evidence of cheating. We are not having safe sex since quite a long time. We are planning to start living together soon. He has always told me that he is incapable of cheating and many times said that if one of us would fail and cheat, it would be me.
I haven’t talked to him. I cannot sleep.
Help My Disappointed Heart
Your boyfriend is a manipulative POS. He wanted the freedom to fuck other guys but didn’t want his boyfriend to enjoy the same freedom. So he made you feel like you were the problem—he convinced you that you were the immature one and that you were the one most likely to cheat, he maliciously undermined your self-esteem—so that you would be too busy worrying about and scrutinizing your own shortcomings to notice his. DTMFA.
BEFORE WE GO: So… I’ve got some space to kill, and not sure what to do with it.
Do I come to the defense of J. Michael Bailey, the Northwestern University prof being attacked for inviting his adult students to stay after his popular human sexuality class to watch two adults engage in a wholly relevant display of human sexuality? Do I beat the hell out of Maryland’s backstabbing, born-again bigot Sam “Political Suicide” Arora? (Don’t have the room to unpack his transgression, dear readers, so you’ll just have to trust me on this: Send a furious e-mail expressing nonspecific disgust to sam.arora@house.state.md.us.)
Do I ask my readers to go to www
.recalltherepublican8.com and make a donation? Or go off on the latest anti-gay religious bigot to be exposed as a hypocritical sexperv? (Again, no room to unpack here—you’ll just have to Google “Reverend Grant Storms,” “arrested for masturbating in a public park,” and “children were present” for all the details.)
Or do I use this space to promote the upcoming release of the It Gets Better book—It Gets Better: Coming Out, Overcoming Bullying, and Creating a Life Worth Living, edited by Dan Savage and Terry Miller—which comes out March 22 and can be preordered now at www.itgetsbetter.org or Amazon.com?
Oh shit. Out of space.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
@ Chicago Girl- Long story short, Erica can fuck a dozen random dudes and have bad sex every time. Obviously the problem is our crappy bad-sex world and/or the men.
Men don’t want to have PIV sex for an hour, or for fifteen minutes, they want to be able to have it for *as long as it takes to satisfy their partner*. Since this varies from woman to woman and night to night, they have a tough job, but they (rightly) feel that they need to be able to last an hour, in case that’s what it takes. The good ones will put the effort in to get to know their partner, and adjust accordingly. Good partners will communicate their needs and desires to them, verbally or not.
But men have the un-enviable position of being the ones whose bodies have to operate in a certain way to please their partners, emotionally if not physically. Women don’t want a three-pump-chump, but they don’t want to feel like he can’t get off from screwing them, either. Having a solid connection that extends outside of the bed is incredibly helpful in making sure both parties are satisfied *and* confident that they are satisfying their partner.
Warranted confidence is a turn-on, but sexual insecurity is a total mood killer.
The first letter is a study in the cheater’s control issues. She’d like Dan to tell the world to listen to their therapist? Why should they or we? I fired my Psychologist last summer after I realised that everything I need to know comes from within. The notion that anyone needs to “listen to their therapist” is ridiculous. I think her partner should just dump her and move on to someone who has the same attitude to relationships as he does.
She is just trying to change this guy to suit what SHE wants and that isn’t real life. Why doesn’t she just find a guy who she actually likes and then she won’t have to go to a therapist at all. She could work on her self-esteem issues as well. SHE cheated and that is always rooted in the panic of “missing out” but without the courage of being alone. Hey, you came into this world alone, you’ll leave it alone. Learn to think for yourself. I hope she reads this.
@96 Hunter78
I think the run-on italics are due to some commenter forgetting to close their html tags (and the comment system not catching it).
@68 – I see the bitter, hate-filled troll is back. Look, honey, take some responsibility for YOUR life and stop looking to women to tell you “how” to live. Wah, wah, wah, that’s all you do when you come on here!
For your sake, go and find out what makes you happy and then understand that THAT is what you are meant to be sharing with the world, NOT this hatefulness and ugly bitterness towards women.
Like and then love yourself more and you will get over the obsession.
EricaP
Sorry to have intruded on your conversation with BlackRose, but I maintain that I don’t know, nor have ever even heard of, a guy who kept up with the vaginal penetration when his partner wasn’t enjoying it. In my experience guys like to feed their egos by being really good in bed. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I really haven’t seen any evidence to support the theory that lots of guys just keep pounding away while their partner is bored to tears/chafed. Never had such a thing happen to me, never had any friend complain about such thing, and I’ve heard my friends complain about everything sex-related that they don’t like; I’ve never heard it mentioned anywhere.
@104, if your partner, like Chicago girl, is all happy with lengthy PIV sex, then that’s rainbows and kittens! Yay! (It’s not a mechanical question of lubrication, for me; things just get numb after a while and the thrusts don’t feel sexual, just stupid.)
@109, see @57. It’s not just me.
All I’m saying, is that I think, general rule, 5-15 minutes of PIV should be considered standard (Wiki: “Men typically reach orgasm 5–10 minutes after the start of penile-vaginal intercourse”). If you are routinely thrusting for 45 minutes to an hour, don’t tell yourself that makes you a great lover. It may, if she likes it, or it may not, if she doesn’t. Make sure your partner enjoys that, or make it up to her in other ways. If I knew a half-hour massage was coming, I’d be more tolerant of the extra half hour of thrusting.
@105: “[women] don’t want to feel like he can’t get off from screwing them”
This is exactly right. After a certain point, especially if the PIV goes on and on but doesn’t end in male orgasm… It’s just demoralizing.
Great questions and feedback this week, everyone. Well done. Thank you. Much enjoyed here. Please take your respective, individual and collective bows. Peace! 🙂
EricaP (@110, @111), my personal experience confirms your data. I’m a guy who takes quite a while to come: under PIV conditions, about 30 minutes, at least (but note PIV is not my favorite thing to do with a woman in bed). Now, often enough women insisted on PIV with me, so I obliged; and there was variation. Some were like Chicago girl and loved to go on forever; some didn’t like it after a few minutes (in many cases they thought I wanted it, they were no so thrilled by it themselves).
Curiously, even those who loved it often enough didn’t come from PIV; they just said it ‘felt hot and great’ or something like that. (I’ve been with only one girl who could come easily from PIV sex alone, and who loved it that way.)
@110
I seem to be doing a terrible job of expressing myself on this forum. I never said it was just you, I was simply responding to you. Also, @113, I never said that I liked PIV to go on forever, all I said was that it was not my experience that guys liked to go on forever even if their partner was not enjoying themselves. As far as vaginal intercourse goes, I generally do get bored with it after 15 or 20 minutes. But that’s just me.
@113 – suddenly I’m quite curious about what that favorite thing is 🙂 (Note, not asking, just enjoying my flash/flush of curiosity and letting it spark some fantasies 🙂
@114 – sorry for misunderstanding… I thought you’d never heard of women being unhappy with an extended PIV session. Yet here we were in this thread. Or see @78: “it was a huge relief to be let off the super-performance hook.” I agree that good-hearted men believe they are being good lovers by lasting an hour; I just want to get the idea out there that their partners may not agree.
Real super-performers in bed are those with the interpersonal skills to get the conversation going about what each person honestly likes. I don’t think you can do it all with body language, when women are socially trained to moan and writhe in order to persuade men that they are good lovers.
Thanks again for your great column, Dan.
I’m sorry if I pissed you off.
I have inadvertently been pissing a lot of people off lately.
Looks like your boy Rick Santorum is fast tracked to be the next President! This is not the time to just roll over and give up! He CAN be stopped, it’s a longshot but we have to try!
@115
Um, fine. I’m sure we can all rest easy now that the idea that not all women like to be pounded for hours on end is “out there,” although where you got the sense that I disputed this idea is still beyond me. Everyone’s sexual needs are idiosyncratic; I though that was sort of a given here on the Savage Love comment board.
@22 – having been in a similar situation, I agree. Except in my case my husband did end it with the other woman – after a year. And then took up with a new other woman. Still professing love, refusing to move out ‘for the kids’ sake. Anyone in this situation, save yourself. Don’t waste one more minute trying to work it out with a cheating liar while your life wastes away. Its not worth it.
@118 – see @109. That’s where you disputed the idea that women are often pounded beyond what they enjoy. Everyone’s sexual needs may be idiosyncratic, but common themes emerge. For instance, women who enjoy straight PIV for more than twenty minutes are rare.
haven’t seen anyone address this, so I will. How do we know that YNGC is a woman? I’ve re-read the letter and don’t see it. Now, it certainly SOUNDS like it’s a woman, but we don’t know for sure, do we?
@122
I didn’t dispute that some women don’t enjoy extended bouts of vaginal intercourse, I simply said that I was unaware, in my experience, of lots of men that persist in pounding a woman for their own pleasure when they know she’s not enjoying it.
“men encourage each other to last as long as possible, because who gives a shit if the woman is no longer enjoying it.”
That’s your comment that I dispute. The whole men-encourage-each-other-to-last-as-long-as-possible-because-fuck-women-and-their-pleasure thing. For the love of christ, I never said that every woman likes long PIV sessions, I never said that *I* like extended PIV sessions, I never said that *you* liked them. I said “that I don’t know, nor have ever even heard of, a guy who kept up with the vaginal penetration when his partner wasn’t enjoying it. ” I also said “Your average guy probably tries to last longer because that’s what HE thinks is necessary to be a good lover.” THAT’S ALL I FUCKING SAID. I said I didn’t think that lots of women are being pounded by guys who were *knowingly* ignoring their sexual needs, and I said this because that is my experience in the matter. Is that so fucking difficult to understand? Perhaps I was not explicit enough with the whole men consider their partner’s needs thing, but I thought that repeatedly saying that men want to be awesome lovers and that’s why they try to take longer sort of implied that.
From 120 to ankylosaur,
“I’m a guy who takes quite a while to come: under PIV conditions, about 30 minutes, at least.”
I’m calling bullshit.
___________
Ding! Ding! We have a winner here! THIS is why “guys think they have to go all night.” You see folks, it isn’t about “pleasing a woman” it is the idiotic “male competition” thing where some other guy will “call bullshit” on some other guy who says it takes him longer than the other guy to get off.
It is NOT about women and never has been about women and it never will be.
To the woman on this thread who wanted to get it “out there” that not all women like to be pounded until the cows come home? YOU are very astute and absolutely right. Why? Because it doesn’t matter how many of the minority of women, who, for whatever reason, encourage a man to “go all night,” or what they have to say because THEY will always find a man who is obsessed with that very thing: going on forever. You are right because the silly notion needs to be addressed if more and more people are to enjoy good sex.
Now that we see that is isn’t some societal pressure on men to “perform” but simply the silly, locker room, boys talk that has created this unreal expectation, we can move forward.
To the dude who called the “bullshit,” you also mentioned the word, “troll” in another post.
Honey, you ARE one of the trolls on this thread. You and that other dude, the “professor” are both trolls who show up to throw some ignorant comment or whiny argument onto the thread instead of actually learning something about, well, in this case, sex or maybe even, life in general.
For the record, and this is a FACT: there are almost 7 billion people on this planet so there is a very real possibility that there are thousands of men who need to go on for half an hour to “get off.”
The world does not stop at the end of your doorstep.
Troll, indeed.
Alas, I’m sure someone on this thread will pick up on one tiny word and then run with it instead of coming out from under the rock and extending their minds a bit past their own pre-conceived notions. I won’t be back because what I’ve written is solid but is only understood by those who have (a) had a lot of sex and (b) have lived a lot of experiences. If you haven’t done either of those things then you will “argue” it. Have at it.
YNGC cheated on her boyfriend but yet says that “we’re working on his “control issues.” Had my partner lied and cheated on me I might like to regain some control in that relationship. YNGC’s boyfriend might be dicking around in therapy, and if that’s the case, yeah she might need to call him out on it and/or end the relationship. I’m skeptical, however, about YNGC’s portrayal of the situation as I don’t get a sense of accountability. Shouldn’t they also be working on her lack of respect for her partner issues? It also sounds like there’s more going on here. She cheated on him three years ago, but told him nine months ago–why is that? What happened that made her confess her transgression after three years or even at all?
This is not to pick on EBTS, as she’s doing all the right things, i.e. communicating with her boyfriend, trying to understand what’s going on with, which is refreshing after YNGC ‘s letter. But she used this phrase that tweaks me: “he’s got all the moves.” That phrase always makes me wince partly because it reminds me of an 80’s movie with Tom Cruise (or some other interchangeable actor who was in their 20’s at that time) called All the right moves, but also because it sounds sleazy in an unfun way. This is not Dancing with the stars. There are no patented “moves” with sex. Yeah, everybody has a particular way that they move their body, or things they like to do. But there’s no one move that pleases all women or men. It’s more about paying attention and being able to recognize what your partner likes.
@124, our current disagreement is whether men, generally, are *effectively* considering their partners’ preferences, or only *superficially* considering their partners’ preferences, in a context where women often don’t say what they like. Women should communicate what they want, but since women are also supposed to build up a man’s ego in bed, it’s hard to be honest. It takes a super-performer like cvilletop’s lover @78 to speak up and redirect the action at the risk of hurting his feelings.
Three times this year, I found myself getting this extended treatment. The guys presumably thought I liked it, because I was being wildly enthusiastic to get them to come. But it was a drag. If a guy really can’t come without extended PIV, I wouldn’t mind being cooperative. I’d be annoyed if I thought they could come after a more reasonable time (15 minutes), but were holding off for their own pleasure (as BlackRose has suggested). In that case I would want them to have heard somewhere, maybe on Slog, that women often don’t like that.
@128
Dude, I think that if a girl is writhing and moaning with pleasure while enduring a pounding she does not enjoy, that can’t be blamed on the guy! If a person is actively deceiving their partner, they can’t turn around and resent the guy for not reading their goddamn mind. I agree that a lot of guys may have bought into the idea that women always love extended PIV, so of course it’s to everyone’s benefit that it be discussed, but what bugged me about your original comment was your explicit assertion that guys keep it up to be assholes, knowingly ignoring their partner’s feelings. To that point, did BlackRose suggest that he routinely ignored his partner’s feelings? I thought he said that there was give and take, but which I assumed he meant that there was open communication on these points. I understand that it can be hard to be honest in bed, but if that’s a problem, a girl has to work on that herself. It’s always a good thing to check up with your partner when you’ve been doing a particular thing for awhile, but if someone chooses to interpret the ecstatic moans of his partner as encouragement, I don’t see how that indicates that he doesn’t give a shit about his partner’s pleasure. The example offered by @78 actually supports my point: he did it because he thought women liked it, not because he did; he was serving *her* pleasure, not his own. All of his partners who’d been dishonest on this point were to blame for their own dissatisfaction (at least in that part of it). Do you really think it’s a good idea to encourage men to distrust the signals we give in bed? Should a guy stop every 30 seconds and ask their partner if she’s enjoying herself because he read on Slog that women fake it? Women need to show some goddamn agency in these matters, and if it’s hard for them they need to work on that. Don’t blame this problem on malicious guys.
@129 Every 30 seconds? No. But I do think guys should routinely check in after 20 minutes of non-stop PIV. At that point, they do not get to assume that women’s moans are genuine. I don’t ever fake orgasm, but men need us to exaggerate our enthusiasm at certain moments. See this study, which says female copulatory vocalizations appear most often before and simultaneously with male ejaculation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20480…
I think guys should exaggerate their enthusiasm for going down on women, and I think women should exaggerate their enthusiasm in bed as well. But then men have to have a realistic understanding of what women probably really like. I know a guy’s jaw is tired after a while with oral sex, so if I’m close to orgasm, I’ll tell him that, and if I’m not close, I’ll stop the action. Guys should understand that, for most women, 30 minutes of PIV is a lot to ask. If he can come at 20 minutes, he should do so. If he’s close, he should say that and keep going. If he’s just taking his time because it’s fun for him (and this is where I put BlackRose), or because he thinks he owes it to his partner, then he should stop and get a verbal reassurance that this activity is what the woman wants too.
Courtesy of the Wall Street Journal:
In the study, which included a survey of 71 women: 66% of the women reported using vocalization as a way to speed their partner toward the end, saying they did so because of boredom, discomfort, or pain, as well as because of time limitations.
@129, 130:
I try not to be an asshole and I try to engage in open communication and give and take. But since chicago girl has never heard of such a thing, I’ll admit that there have been times when I’ve pounded away at someone for my own pleasure, even if she didn’t enjoy it. I doubt I’m the only guy or the least considerate guy to do so. Now I try to communicate about it more, be more considerate, and give back as well. (The 30 minute massage deal sounds good to me.)
I don’t think you’re right that a woman enjoying PIV for more than 20 minutes is rare. I know you don’t enjoy lengthy PIV, EricaP, but there are plenty of women who do. You could speculate that they’re lying or faking their enjoyment to me, of course, but without some reason to think that, I’m not going to agree.
I don’t have statistics about how common or rare liking lengthy PIV is, but you seem to be asking men to assume every woman is like you, even if her words and actions suggest otherwise. This doesn’t seem reasonable to me. I do agree that it’s a good idea to have a conversation and make sure she’s enjoying it and it’s a good length for her: I don’t agree that your 5-15 minute standard applies across the board. There are just too many variables: for instance, lubrication changes with a woman’s monthly cycle, was there oral first, is lube being used, did the woman come first, and so on. Everyone is different, every sex session is different, and talking about it is important.
It also just occurred to me that you may be using condoms, which changes everything because they tend to dry out and irritate pussies and dicks.
@132 “even if her words and actions suggest otherwise”. All I’m asking is that you get it from her in words. Words. Not moans. I’m not discounting her words, just her moans.
(For shorter bouts of PIV, moans will do, as most women like it. I continue to believe that longer bouts of PIV require better confirmation that she likes it.)
@130 Huh. Personally, I’ve found guys who are always seeking verbal confirmation slightly annoying, especially when I’m clearly enjoying myself. Your WSJ poll seems to cover women who are trying to get their partners to come, not women who are being pounded after communicating a desire to stop. Saying that past a certain time limit a guy can’t trust your non-verbal communication? Fuck that.
@132 I didn’t mean to suggest I’d never heard of men being insensitive lovers, I just said it wasn’t common in my experience. Some are better than others, but in my experience the ego trip for most guys, assholes included, comes from pleasuring a woman, not subjecting her to sex she doesn’t enjoy. Guess I just don’t know as many insensitive bastards as you and Erica.
@134 Again, so happy to hear you’re having good sex. I’m writing for people who are not quite sure that their partners are happy. And on behalf of the women who are not happy. Not you.
@ Chicago Girl: “Women need to show some goddamn agency in these matters, and if it’s hard for them they need to work on that.” Thank you!! If you are faking enjoyment, don’t put that off on the man who may well be trying his best to please you.
@ EricaP: Expecting a man to check in with you regularly is ridiculous, and smacks of trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility for your own pleasure. It’s not like you have to go out of your way to let a guy know what you want- a simple “Oh baby, I want to feel you come!” at the right moment is generally all a guy needs.
On the other hand, your feeling that men aren’t really interested in their partner’s pleasure may have a lot to do with the fact that you are fucking random men who probably DON’T care about your pleasure. Men take the time and effort to please women they love and/or respect, not the random slut they picked up on the internet.
You have made it quite clear that you have a lousy sex life and are usually unsatisfied with your partners- perhaps you are not in a good position to be giving other people sex advice? Leave that to ladies like Chicago Girl who are having good sex.
@ Black Rose: I HOPE she’s using condoms. Not that those using those during PIV will protect her from acquiring oral HPV, which she can then transmit to her husband’s uncovered cock, which can then transmit it to her pussy anyway. But hey, they’re better than nothing, when you’re sleeping with god-knows-who.
And I don’t see anyone mentioning that how long a woman wants PIV for isn’t just dependent on the woman, it can vary from day-to-day, also. A lot of women may be satisfied with a five minute quickie Monday through Thursday, but would appreciate an hour of well-lubricated PIV on the weekend, when she doesn’t have to get up early. Again, the connection and communication between the couple is what makes the difference.
This conversation also is ALL about how men should adjust how long PIV goes on for to please the woman- why is it fair that only the male should sacrifice his pleasure for the female? Shouldn’t it be fifty-fifty, sometimes it goes for the length of time he wants, other times the length of time she wants? No wonder so many guys are so caught up in how long they CAN last for- it sounds like women don’t care how long the man WANTS to last for.
@136: “Shouldn’t it be fifty-fifty, sometimes it goes for the length of time he wants, other times the length of time she wants?”
Thank you! An acknowledgment that women might not love the PIV for the same length of time the guy does. Exactly. Both partners can agree to short sessions most weeknights; then on weekends they can take turns, one night lengthy PIV for him, and one night lengthy cunnilingus for her.
(Usual Disclaimer: I think more women than men like lengthy cunnilingus sessions, and I think more men than women like lengthy PIV sessions. If your mileage varies, then adjust accordingly so both parties are getting what they want.)
I’m sorry, you cheated on your boyfriend and your therapy is working on “his issues?” Quit worrying about what your boyfriend is doing and address yourself. If you are using therapy to feel superior to your boyfriend, then you are lying to yourself, him and the therapist, and wasting everyone’s time and your money.
@EricaP, why would you keep moaning when you’re not enjoying it anymore? if it’s uncomfortable or painful, speak the fuck up–don’t rely on him to start that conversation.
I agree that people shold be checking up during sex, but I can understand why a guy would just keep going if he werehaving fun, and his partner seemed to be having fun because she was moaning, etc. I just don’t understand why you don’t speak up, if you have bad sex. maybe a lot of women have bad sex, but maybe it’s partially their fault if they insist on pretending to be enjoying themselves when they’re not. if long sex is a serious problem for you, you can bring it up beforehand if that’s easier than SPEAKING UP WHEN YOU’RE UNCOMFORTABLE.
@140 Many women (not just me) make sexy noises in bed to speed their partner toward orgasm, because of their own “boredom, discomfort, pain… [or] time limitations”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20480…
http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/0…
This is normal. You guys can say that it’s all women’s fault for being deceitful. But if you don’t take it into consideration, you are not actually being a good lover, regardless of how you see yourself.
These guys who don’t understand that it’s a drag to be pounded after a while (“just use more lube and keep going”)- should try getting pounded for an hour sometime.
@140: Just cutting on on your question to EriaP to say that while I’m normally all in favour of direct communication, I totally see where Erica is coming from in this situation.
I, too, have moaned in order to get guys to hurry the hell up and come. I assumed that they were just having a hard time “getting there” and tried to provide some extra stimulation to help things along – because, after all, I do love the feeling of my partner coming inside me (now I’m wondering whether they were purposely holding back for my benefit…ugh, how horribly ironic that would’ve been).
But times that the moans didn’t work, I found I’d kinda painted myself into a corner – if I go straight from moaning to “Yeah, my vag hurts, stop now” then my partner will know the moans were fake and he’ll probably distrust all my sounds from then on. So it’s a difficult thing.
@whoever it was who suggested I use more lube to help with discomfort during long sessions of penetration – it’s not a texture issue for me, it’s a size issue. I’m tight and my boyfriend is big: my vagina feels uncomfortably overstretched after ten or twenty minutes regardless of how slippery I am.
Also: I agree that when men try to last forever, it’s usually for women’s benefit. The thing is, most of these guys aren’t asking us if it’s what we want.
I’ve had many partners who wanted to last a long time in order to impress me. I was like “I don’t care about that stuff. If you want to please me, make friends with my clitoris.”
Some of these guys listened and adjusted their goals accordingly. A surprising number of them, however, just kept insisting on fucking me all night long while refusing to go down on me or give me handjobs. You know, to prove what a stud they were.
Guys have to realize that their idea of what women like might be very different from the truth.
@EricaP, I’m a woman. and I agree that men SHOULD check in, but if they don’t (which seems to be a persistent problem for you), then you should speak up. you can complain about the societal reasons why women and men act the way they do; you can blame porn or culture or whatever, and you might be right to an extent, but if you want a better sex life, you have to speak up, even if it means momentary awkwardness.
Wonderful column and especially the conversations going on in the comments. Communication is the key.
@145 I’ve made these changes in my life. I’m verbal now about my desires before (and while) having sex with new guys, and I try not to worry about their orgasms. But, guys, that’s just me. It took a cultural change for most guys to realize that most women need clitoral stimulation. Their partners didn’t tell them directly — the culture changed.
I want men to realize that regardless of the sexy sounds she is making, your partner probably doesn’t like an hour of PIV sex. Most don’t. If you don’t like that answer, ask her yourself.
The fact that many women (or men?) may moan or use some other indirect communication to hasten the end means neither that this is a good method of communicating nor that failure to pause regularly to investigate whether moans are genuine makes one a bad lover. Isn’t it best to simply be clear about likes and dislikes?
Yes, I know it can be hard to be bluntly honest, since we’re so well-trained to dissimulate about sex, but why not unlearn that unhelpful behavior? If you’re tired of having sex a certain way, just say so; if you’re worried about offending your partner, find a way to soften the blow with your enthusiasm. For example, maybe things were going so great that your entire body has exhausted all of its fluids, so you must now pause for rehydration and try some other approach.
Meanwhile, I don’t understand the need to defend Prof. Bailey. Is there some danger of being fired, or is it just criticism? Well, criticism is going to come with the territory when you stage live sex acts in class. No surprise there. I’m not sure why it was so important to have a live demonstration, as opposed to other methods. What educational value, beyond the prurient interest, demanded this?
“Cheating is natural.
All our primate cousins do it, when given a chance.”
It doesn’t surprise me if some of our primate cousins have sex with multiple partners, or one primary and other secondary partners. However, it does surprise me that they make agreements with one another to be exclusive. Do their governments sanction these arrangements, or is it a religious thing?
@149: You win the thread!
@141, 147: My problem with these posts is that you insist on telling guys what “most women” want and don’t want. From what I’ve read and experienced, you seem to be an unusual case. I do ask women what they like. I just don’t believe that most women don’t enjoy lengthy PIV sometimes, assuming no condoms, lube if necessary, and their partner paying attention to them and asking what they like.
@143: I’m baffled at this idea that moans would make a guy hurry up! If my partner moans, I usually think, “Oh, she’s enjoying this, I better keep doing what I’m doing now and not come yet.” If you want your partner to come, just say “sorry, but I’m getting sore, can you come fast for me?” Not a big deal. I hate being rushed, but of course if you need me to come fast I will. Also, a lot of the time I can’t come and I’m just enjoying the stimulation of PIV, so I’d just stop if it was hurting my partner. PIV is not always about coming.
@150, have you, personally, ever received a vigorous thrusting for an hour? Have you seen any women (or men) on here posting to say that they really love receiving an hour-long fuck? Wouldn’t they be coming out of the woodwork if I were completely off-base?
Question: since you say you ask women what they like, tell us, of the women you have asked, how many have told you they loved lengthy PIV, and how many were less enthusiastic?
@150, also, have you ever said to a woman, “sorry, my jaw is getting sore, could you come fast for me?” Guys this year sometimes asked me to come. It makes me super nervous and makes it much, much harder for me to come.
Do most guys like being asked to come? It doesn’t feel like too much pressure?
On the PIV debate — my experience aligns with Erica’s. That most women I know don’t like lengthy PIV — I’d say 20 mins being top, while ideal being 10 mins or less with lots of prior foreplay — kissing and oral or hand stimulation. Sometimes sex sessions can go on for quite a while, especially on the weekends, but it’s not non-stop PIV.
For me personally, if I’ve already had a clitoral orgasm, I can’t handle long PIV — everything is just so sensitive that would destroy me. The only time I think I actually like long PIV is if I’ve been drinking considerably — whiskey just deadens things and takes a long time for me to get to orgasm, if at all. At the time, I don’t notice it, but man do I feel it the next day! If I’m in the mood for a lot of sex, I much prefer multiple rounds of orgasms than one long session. So the total overall PIV may be long, but it’s not all non-stop, being punctuated with a lot of oral or other stimulation and rest periods.
I would be surprised if a lot of women said they like PIV for more than 20 mins. That certainly wouldn’t align with my experience (or those of my gfs).
Everyone who goes in to couple’s counseling needs to read this first:
http://www.smartmarriages.com/hazardous.…
@154: I would, but I’ve become allergic to marriage.
EricaP, KL, et al., though you keep insisting that enjoyment of lengthy vaginal sex is rare, I am feebly raising my hand “yes” over here, anxious about being branded an abnormal woman. My impression of hetero women is just the opposite of yours: most I’ve known well enough to know such details prefer a man who can make it last that long. But mileage varies, so I wouldn’t insist that one way or the other is typical or normative. Maybe that’s why I’m so happily monogamous: I found the guy with whom I can comfortably enjoy these longer-term sessions. It’s almost always pleasant, and if not, there’s usually some reason and I just say what it is. My back is sore, or whatever. We try something else. There’s almost always something else one can turn to if needed–isn’t that grand?
I also make noises when I’m having fun, and generally can’t help making noises. I don’t fake making noises, and if I were going to fake making noises in order to get my partner to do something that is precisely the opposite of the message I’m communicating with the noises, I sure wouldn’t blame him for not understanding me. My goodness, the man is not a mind reader. When you moan, he may think you want more. I am reminded of the Arnold Lobel story about the Mouse and the Crickets. “I want you to stop and you are giving me MORE!” says the mouse. “What’s that you say? You want MORE music? Ok…” say the crickets. Rough paraphrase. Just tell the poor guy to stop the music already.
I’m certainly not going to tear you down — I’ve been waiting for women like you to speak up.
So, here’s a question. Would it bother you if a man paused after screwing for about twenty minutes, and asked if you wanted to change activities (or positions)? Would that make him seem insecure, from your perspective? Or are you happily able to discuss sexual preferences in bed?
The thing is, in the lengthy PIV sessions that annoy me and some other women, the guy is on top, pinning the woman down. If I were free to move around, I would just get up. But pinned to the bed, I have to use words instead. (In my experience, silence wasn’t taken as a “stop that, I’ve had enough”) Can you see why I think, if guys checked how the woman was doing after twenty minutes, that would be a more friendly way for them to keep on having sexy fun, rather than for her to have to say “Could you stop, please?”
Suzy — So most of your girlfriends like PIV sex that goes on for more than 20 mins straight? Just making sure that I understand what you’re saying.
If that’s the case, wow, it’s definitely been the opposite of my experience. I wonder if there is some regional difference, or cultural or religious reason to explain the difference.
The only friend I know that likes long PIV sex really doesn’t experience any foreplay. In her case, I think she and her husband aren’t that sexually adventurous and may even frown upon a lot of types of foreplay (oral I know for sure is frowned upon in their marriage, for both people). If that were the case, it would makes sense to me because if I wasn’t getting any warm-up, I could see needing a lot more PIV to get to orgasm. Is that the same in your case? Or do you dig lots of foreplay and lots of PIV?
For me, with all the foreplay, I feel like I’m ready to burst by the time we get to actual PIV (unless we’re doing slow and steady Al Green style which can last a lot longer, though I’m often not that patient at that point). So I literally just can’t imagine a lot of PIV unless there was some other reason that there wasn’t a lot of arousal before getting to PIV (i.e. alcohol lessening sensation or lack of foreplay).