My wife and I click on just about every level—parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.—except for sex. After our last child was born, my advances were increasingly rejected. In an attempt to avoid pressuring her, I stopped initiating. One week passed, nothing. A month passed, nothing. A YEAR passed, nothing. Depression and anger set in. But I was committed to being the “perfect husband,” so I did not pressure her, hoping her libido would return. It didn’t. After two years, I finally lost it and confronted her. I expected that an open dialogue would improve the situation, but a month passed and she never brought it back up.
I realize that I’m lucky to be happy and fulfilled in just about every area of my life, but I’ve become fidgety, short-tempered, and hypersensitive. I do not want to have an affair and I do not want a divorce. I love her and our children, but I’m at a loss as to what to do. Knowing there are women out there in the world who actually enjoy sex is devastating (it kills me to listen to you field a call from a sexually confident woman on your podcast). I am mourning the loss of intimacy and connection with another person.
Please Advise Troubled Husband
I’ll get to you in a minute, PATH, but first…
MTV, a cable television channel that has been broadcasting music videos in a continuous loop since the summer of 1981, has elected to speed the moral collapse of the United States by putting me on television. My upcoming sex-advice program is tentatively titled Savage U, and it represents MTV’s first foray into non-music-video programming. (My preferred title for the show—Dan Savage’s Alaska—was rejected by the program’s co–executive producer, Piper Palin.) This news has upset not only my son, who has been in the MTV stage of his development for roughly three years, but also Maggie Gallagher, the head of the National Organization for Marriage, who has been stuck in the raving-bigot stage of her development for nearly three decades.
“Renowned sex columnist Dan Savage, who is an openly gay man,” Gallagher wrote on her blog, “will be taking his popular sex and relationship advice column to MTV in a show appropriately called ‘Savage U’ where he intends to educate your college student about the importance of honesty over just about anything else, including fidelity.”
Gallagher, who once had a child out of wedlock, speaks for the fidelity-over-anything-else crowd (fidelity over honesty, reality, statistics, biology, ability, etc.). Now, some people are capable of abstaining before marriage and being faithful to one partner for life—some people, but not Maggie—but these people represent a tiny minority of sexually active adults. And while those who make this aberrant lifestyle choice should not be discriminated against, the rest of us—the majority of sexually active adults—should be free to engage in grown-up conversations about sex and desire and the more reality-friendly ways in which we define fidelity without being shouted down by the monogamously correct.
I’d like to address Gallagher’s two main objections to Savage U in some detail:
“Savage, for all his experience, does not know what women are like,” says Gallagher.
I may not know what women taste like—I’ve never gone down on one—but I do know what women are like. My mother was a woman, my sister is a woman, my favorite bartender is a woman, my first sex partners were women, and many of my friends, neighbors, and coworkers are women. And as someone who is attracted to men and is in a long-term relationship with a man, I know what straight women have to put up with.
Ironically, Gallagher is a practicing Catholic who cites her faith as a reason for her opposition to same-sex marriage. But not knowing what women taste like has never stopped the pope from offering his unsolicited advice to women—no birth control, no abortions, no oral, no anal, no handjobs—and it seems a little hypocritical of Gallagher to suggest that I’m not qualified to offer advice to women, since I don’t fuck ’em, without first telling that old fag in Rome to STFU already.
“The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another, or of a vow, is not in the Savage moral imagination,” says Gallagher. “Libido will have out, and honesty about that is the best policy.”
The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another most definitely exists within the Savage moral imagination. I frequently discuss the “price of admission,” that is, the personal sacrifices, large and small, that make long-term relationships possible. For some, the price of admission—what it costs to ride a particular ride—includes “taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another.” If anal sex is something you enjoy, but you’re in love with someone who doesn’t do anal, going without anal is the price of admission. If you’re not into monogamy, but you’re in love with someone who insists on it, then monogamy is the price of admission.
Yes, libido will have out—but “libido will have out” doesn’t translate into “Dan ‘Doesn’t Fuck Women’ Savage says anything and everything goes.” Two people in a long-term, committed relationship should be open and honest with each other about their sexual interests, turn-ons, drives, etc., because, yes, libido will have out. Meaning sexual compatibility and sexual satisfaction have a huge impact on the health of our relationships and marriages, Maggie, particularly if your spouse is your sole source of sexual satisfaction and release. People who can be open and honest with their partners—whether the relationship is monogamous or not—are likelier to have their needs met and likelier to meet their partners’ needs. And when needs are met, people are less likely to cheat and more likely to stay married.
Openness and honesty don’t automatically translate into everyone gets everything everyone wants. Not all needs can be met. But sometimes just having the sacrifices we’ve made for the good of our marriages acknowledged—getting a receipt after paying the price of admission—is good enough. Getting some credit for going without anal, along with the green light to jerk off to anal porn now and then, can make going without anal easier. Indeed, it can make going without anal virtuous, something that speaks well of the going-without-anal partner’s character and priorities.
But there are times when monogamy—its pressures, its discontents, its unquestioned acceptance—can destroy an otherwise decent marriage.
Take PATH’s marriage. If his wife doesn’t come around—if her libido doesn’t kick back into gear after mental or medical intervention—this couple is surely headed for divorce. PATH is not only feeling depressed and resentful, he’s also contemplating an affair (even if he’s in the dismiss-that-idea stage). Sooner or later, he’s going to cheat or walk. But this marriage, a marriage that works on every other level (“parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.”), could be saved if Mr. and Mrs. PATH were encouraged to openly and honestly discuss their sexual needs and their sexual disconnect. If Mrs. PATH is done with sex—for now, perhaps forever—Mr. and Mrs. PATH should be encouraged to come to a reasonable, mutually agreeable accommodation, one that allows for Mr. PATH to get his needs met elsewhere if that’s what he needs to stay sane and stay married.
I’m not sure what to call someone who places a higher value on preserving monogamy within a particular marriage over preserving that marriage itself, Maggie, but I wouldn’t call that person a defender of marriage.
I may just re-up for cable just to watch you, Dan!
Catholicism has actually long sanctioned oral within the confines of a solemnized marriage so long as it is not intended as a substitute for the reproductive act.
IOW, you can jizz in her mouth, you just can’t *always* jizz in her mouth as that is no longer part of a ordered sex life. I figured you’d be supportive of such an arrangement…
“Old fag” in Rome! I love it!
He tried to initiate sex 1 week after his wife gave birth? REALLY? 4-6 weeks is what Google’s top hits say.
He calls himself a “perfect husband” but doesn’t explain what that means. To some men, it would require being an equal partner in housework & child rearing, but to other guys, that can just mean not cheating and openly checking out other chicks. Not enough info to know whether or not PATH’s real problem is needing to step up his game at home before recommending possible “accommodations” or if he really does deserve a “get out of celibacy free” card.
Dan, I usually think you’re spot on, but this week you let your (deserved) diatribe water down your advice.
No, he didn’t say that. He doesn’t specify how long after the birth of their last child he waited, he states that after he decided to stop initiating sex, he waited a full week-and nothing happened.
Now, might a woman still frazzled over the birth of her last child maybe feel weird about her husband suddenly ending any attempt to connect with her sexually? And completely stopped initiating? Might that strange “ooh I’ll withhold sex and then you’ll want it and then you’ll initiate and it’ll be so sexy because all of a sudden your sex drive will be off the charts” attempt be less intelligent than waiting a few weeks, easing her into sexual activity again with first kissing, making her feel sexy, etc., then initiating sex? Maybe. All I know that if you wait two years where you are angry and depressed over not having sex and don’t attempt to talk about it, perhaps your marriage is not otherwise as perfect as you thought it was.
PATH should give more thought to what kind of sex his wife might like. His letter is weird, with this “perfect husband” crap mixed in with no communication until he “lost it and confronted her.” And he thought that would fix everything. I feel as if he never paid any attention to what his wife actually enjoyed in bed. He doesn’t say: “she always used to love extended oral / giving me blow jobs / having a finger in her ass / talking dirty.” In fact, he sounds pretty convinced that she never liked sex, and just tolerated it. Does she masturbate? Would he know? What does she think about sex, or their marriage? Maybe he should start trying to find out…
Dan, I love you, and I’m sure someone else has pointed this out to you, but this is not MTV’s first foray into non-music-video programming. Cf. numerous Real World seasons, 16 and Pregnant, Daria, and Jersey Shore, among others. Unless you were being facetious and I’m actually very dumb and consequently a little embarrassed.
After I had a child, my libido took a back seat to complete exhaustion. My then-husband would complain, “We never have sex because she’s always bathing the kid, or feeding the kid, or changing a diaper, or putting the kid to bed”. The solution was right there in front of him. If he would help out with some of this bathing, feeding, changing and putting to bed, in other words do some parenting, then I wouldn’t have been so exhausted and would have been receptive to his advances. I missed sex too! But working a full time job and doing all the parenting while he watched TV I simply had no energy left for it.
This is far from an otherwise perfect marriage. The lw is resentful and depressed, frustrated and short-tempered. He’s been rejected sexually and emotionally for over two years.
His wife may well feel resentful, too. She may feel unattractive (and her husband’s not making any sexual advances might reinforce that feeling), or feel too over-worked to feel sexy. Her opinion as to the lw’s level of “perfection” husband-wise, might not be the same as his assessment.
He says he “finally lost it and confronted” his wife–and then was surprised that she didn’t bring the subject up again. If this was the way he initiated what is clearly a charged and complex situation, I’m not surprised at all that she didn’t want to bring up an opportunity to be “confronted” by someone who has “lost it” again.
They need help. They need honesty. The wife is not being honest. I suspect that she is deeply unhappy, and only too relieved that he has stopped initiating sex, as sex had become a tiresome obligation she resented having to perform. I speak only from my experience and that of many of my married female friends, so I may be projecting, but I doubt she would characterize her husband as perfect.
After I had a baby, my libido took a back seat to utter exhaustion. My ex would complain, “We never have sex because she’s always feeding the baby, or bathing the baby, or changing a diaper, or putting the baby to bed.” Well I was always doing those things because he never did those things, and those things had to be done. If he’d been willing to share some parenting, I wouldn’t have been so exhausted and would have loved to fool around. I missed sex too! I was simply exhausted at the end of the day.
@7: I thought the same thing. Perhaps we’re both missing his joke.
@9 – excellent analysis, and probably fairly common for new moms. Question – is the loss of desire a loss of desire to have sex in general or just sex with the husband? For the letter writer, I am not sure which is a worse reality.
For (most) men, sex is a need that doesn’t go away. Without a release, it builds up tension.
Here’s a scenario: let’s say the wife was going through a phase where she didn’t want to have sex for whatever reason (exhaustion may be one, as cited by other commenters). And let’s also say she’s internalized the bullshit idea that it’s the man’s job to initiate sex. So even if she suddenly got her libido back, she’s not going to indicate it because that’s not what the woman does. Plus, she may think her husband doesn’t want it anymore because he goes for two years without bringing it up, and SHE doesn’t want to pressure HIM either. Then: boom!
Sounds sexy.
@8 that’s a carrot in front of the nose, but after a year and a half of having new expectations for sex laid out after completing all the old expectations (in my own case), i realize that this is just a stall tactic used by wives to turn the table, and make us feel like we’re the problem. Maybe not in all cases or even half the cases, but I bet a lot of them.
Either they want it (with you) or they don’t. In this case, she just doesn’t find him sexually attractive. I’m in the same boat, but hey don’t sweat it. There is always hot yoga – just joking.
To all the other men out there complaining like myself and this dude, we just need to shut up. I don’t think its going to change… especially after a year. If you can’t take the drought you should get out or cheat — imho — it beats being resentful and mad about something you can’t change.
@9 yeah, I agree, no matter what this guy does, she’s not digging it and probably feels resentful as well.
@ 8 – I’m glad he was described as your “then husband.” You really have to wonder about the logic of some of these guys who have children and then act like they aren’t actually one of the parents. You’d think that a man would say, “hmmm, my wife carried this child for 9 months so let me help out a bit.” It’s selfish, selfish, selfish. It is also typical of the “average” man who these other men who want to moan about not having parental rights after break ups should be talking to instead of whining to women who were fed up with having to do all the work to begin with and then badgered for sex. Guys, it is offensive to watch your partner sit on his rear whilst you do all the work in raising children only to have that same guy whine, moan and complain about lack of attention.
You want more sex and your wife gave birth to YOUR child then get off your ass and help out. Geesh. How hard can it be? It is astonishing the amount of entitlement some men feel they deserve. Why? What have they done to deserve it? Nothing.
If you’re too lazy to help out then you certainly wouldn’t have the energy to have sex now, would you? If you’re too full of shit to help out then go and run a marathon and do some weight lifting and write a few essays and read a text book of some sort whilst your partner is looking after the child and then you’ll be just as exhausted and drained. THEN, come back and see how much sex you want.
No, I will not be back to engage in tedious “debates.” If my words have hit a nerve then you are EXACTLY the sort of person who needs to hear them the most. Don’t argue, just “do.”
@9
Yep, I’d say you were projecting a lot. Very little of what you criticize the lw for was actually in his letter. How would her husband’s lack of advances make her feel unattractive when it was her total rejection of those advances that made him stop? And he stopped because he thought to be a “perfect husband” meant supporting his wife in every decision she makes. I wouldn’t define that as being the “perfect husband,” but I’m sure a lot of women would.
She didn’t “bring it up” because you were silently nagging her. Oh, yes. Anyone who is aware of their surroundings is able to feel pressure from others. I’ll bet you could have cut the tension with a knife in your home. In other words, you didn’t actually do anything to alleviate any problems. You just expected everything to change just because you weren’t talking about it. It don’t work like that, honey. YOU have to change your thoughts before others change. You can best believe that your wife had it in the front of her mind that you were just waiting to nag her again for sex. There is nothing more repulsive than a man who does nothing but nag, nag, nag. If you want more sex then YOU have to become sexy and a man that SHE wants. You’ve also had a kid, for crying out loud. Are you doing all you can to make life comfortable. It doesn’t sound like this guy was ready to have a child or maybe even be married at all.
@13 what’s so sexy about two folks who want to have sex but don’t because they don’t want to pressure one another? I think that just sucks personally. If you reject your lover enough, they will just give up — bottom line.
@7: Thank you for pointing that out. Dan gets so confused sometimes.
@17 — thought you weren’t coming back
@14/18 – okay, you are facing the same kind of drought that PATH is, so tell us what your wife used to love in bed. What kinds of things used to turn her on? What was sex like with her, before the drought? Does she still masturbate? Are the two of you physically affectionate in other ways (hugs, massages, kisses, handjobs)?
(Also, note that sahara29 was being sarcastic when she wrote “sounds sexy” @13)
If a guy goes for two years without making advances, and without bringing up the problem, and then ‘loses it’ in a confrontation, then he is at least partially to blame here. We don’t know what share of the housework & childcare he does or does not do. We don’t know if she also has a paying job outside the home. We DO know that both of them are pretty crappy at communicating about sex.
Have you tried all the standard stuff? Non-sexual, affectionate touching (holding hands, footrubs), talking about something besides the kids, going out for a date? Try reading to her…novels, poetry, short erotica, whatever. My girlfriend and I are working our way through the Chronicles of Narnia. Classic YA fantasy such as these is really a fun thing to do together–The Phantom Tollbooth, Kipling’s Just So Stories or The Jungle Book.
Point is, Dude’s gotta take some more responsibility for this one. Talk to your wife in a low-key but serious way about the problem. Be prepared to hear some negative things. Try not to get defensive, and try to work toward a better understanding and a better solution. Good luck.
@21 — A.) parties, dressing up, vacations, presents, wine etc…
— B.) head, kissing, caressing, and finally sex if everything goes right.
with a kid, A.) isn’t as easy and B.) well its off the table without A. When we get around to A — we find ourselves rushing home for our kid rather than B. So, its more of an ‘environment’ thing. However, the thing is, it still feels like rejection even if its a rejection of the environment of our kiddie land home.
@23, maybe you don’t care to be grilled about your own sex life, so just ignore if you’re not interested in hashing it out.
However, are you and your wife financially able to hire an overnight sitter (maybe a local family member?) and get a hotel room? That could get spendy, but it might be worth it to you. Have you and your wife had an open, honest discussion about sex, and she said, “No, I am not interested in sex even if we dressed up, went out to dinner, and then had a hot shower in a hotel room”? If she’s flat-out said she’s not interested, no matter what you do or how great you are, then something is wrong wrong wrong. If so, ask if she’s open to looking into getting a physical–maybe there’s something up with her hormones that can be treated.
But that open honest discussion needs to happen first. Not trying to paint you as any kind of bad guy; as a victim of LBD, I feel for you.
We got PATH’s take on what’s going on but not Mrs. PATH’s. I’ll take him at face value and assume that they are not communicating on this issue. Wouldn’t that be a start? The one attempt he descibed was understandably unproductive. They do have professionals to facilitate these things, you know.
The wife no longer qualifies as a ‘new mom’–it’s been 2+ years since the last child was born. Another consideration is what type of birth control the missus is using. Obviously none is needed when there’s no sex, but the pill and other types of hormonal birth control do a number on a woman’s libido.
Yeah, so a woman’s libido is based a lot on how they feel about their spouse and their relationship. Like, if you’re being a passive-aggressive asshole who has the nerve to *experiment* with your relationship (gosh, how long CAN a woman go without sex?) and is simultaneously very poor at communication and maybe a little stubborn, then you will get the results you were expecting, I’m afraid. Women are very sensitive to context and emotional intimacy. The feelings of resentment and inaction emanating from you like lethal radiation?: THAT is what killed her libido.
@20 I read that part as a pretend dialog within their relationship.
LOL. Or yeah, maybe it’s the Pill. That sucker KILLS female libido. And it sneaks up on you and wrecks your libido before you know what’s happening.
#14 I would guess it is absolutely a stall tactic used by wives who are mad at the husband and delight in torturing him through the process of titillation and denial.
I mean seriously, he waits a YEAR and “nothing happens” and STILL he doesn’t want to “pressure her.” Sounds like they are living separate lives of desperation. If this frigid wife wants to live like that then she should join the asexual threads.
He should find a WOMAN to share his life with rather than a sister.
I am sorry for all the women who feel they are put upon by having to carry the baby, breast feed and all that crap but denying sex like this is inhumane and cruel. Give me a fucking break- 10 minutes twice a week is to much trouble to satisfy your husband? Well then how about you try failing to satisfy your EX-husband.
This story has nothing to do with “exhaustion” and “changing the baby” and all those other excuses you women are bringing up and which are not even mentioned in this guys letter. Projection anyone (yes I know- me too but in the opposite direction).
It has everything to do with one simple fact- Your wife doesn’t want to fuck you any more. She wants to prance around and show her feminine power by torturing you and make you pay for whatever real or imagined affront she believes you did or did not do. The really fun part is she will NEVER tell you what it is. She will tell her girlfriends, her hairdresser, and her mom but she sure as hell won’t tell you.
Go to findafuckbuddy.com and live a little. Life is short, have an affair. Want to bet that little Ms. frozen pussy will suddenly discover that she really cares about sex after all and can’t believe her husband would “betray” her like that when he comes in stinking of tramp juice at 4:00 a.m.
Alternatively, you COULD lay it on the table. Not in a confrontational way as you describe but just very, very calmly explain the consequences of continued sexual denial. Don’t make it a threat. Don’t make it a big deal even. Just calmly explain how you have been chatting rather explicitly with a nice young lady online and how you have agreed to meet for a date and how it might turn into a sexual encounter. Gee, I was really hoping WE could go out on a date some time, ya know?
Until my boys were of school age, I was exhausted. My husband just seemed like another little baby that wanted to sick at my tit.
Surprise, our boys got older, my husband started to do more around the house, and my boys were no longer so dependent. Welcome back libido!
*suck
@14/18 – Let me just answer these for what I believe to be about 90% of the potential respondents. I could be wrong and am sure I will here about it.
“okay, you are facing the same kind of drought that PATH is, so tell us what your wife used to love in bed. What kinds of things used to turn her on? What was sex like with her, before the drought?”
Answer: Sex was whatever the guy liked. Usually he stuck it in, got off and that was it. She pretended to like it. Now she is not willing to pretend.
Does she still masturbate?
Answer: Now there is a question Erica can help us with maybe but I would guess very rarely and very surreptitiously although I understand you could also get off easily in the shower every morning and never need sex.
Are the two of you physically affectionate in other ways (hugs, massages, kisses, handjobs)?
Answer: No. Any physical touching might lead to sexual desire and is prohibited.
@7, 11, 19
Of course Dan was being facetious. It’s a JOKE.
@29: “If this frigid wife wants to live like that then she should join the asexual threads.”
@32 notes: “Sex was whatever the guy liked. Usually he stuck it in, got off and that was it. She pretended to like it. Now she is not willing to pretend.”
So, uh, yeah. Couples should talk about what each person actually enjoys… And Professor, where do you fit in? Are you just trolling as usual, or do you have a personal interest in this?
jaansdornea @23, I don’t understand your answer. Are your (A) answers what used to turn her on? vacations, presents, dressing up?
And (B) (ie sex) was what you might earn, if A went well?
Then you misunderstand me. I mean, what kind of physical touching did she like? Scratching, licking, hard nipple tugs, feathery caresses, ass play, foot rubs… Is her clit super sensitive or does it need a Hitachi to wake it up… what about inside, does she like her G-spot caressed, or thrust against, or maybe rubbed in circles, a bit to the left side (that’s me). If you don’t know what kind of touching your wife enjoys, then she’s just bored with sex and with you. Get the book Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch. And take intercourse off the table, explicitly, while you figure out how to make her swoon with your fingers and tongue. Will she let you masturbate when she’s in the room? Will she masturbate with you in the room? These are crucial steps to rebuilding your sexual relationship.
Also, clashfan @24 has good advice!
@27 Sandiai…you’re kidding, right? He’s gone for two years without sex because he’s “experimenting” and being a “passive-aggressive asshole”? Sorry, unless this guy is going for a Nobel prize, I seriously doubt anyone would conduct that kind of experiment on his marriage. Have you experienced this, out of curiosity? Because I have, along with other moms on the thread: Libido doesn’t die because your husband is “seething with resentment,” it dies because you’re so freakishly tired you practically pass out while taking a shower. It comes back naturally for some, for others they have to work on it. Unfortunately, for a lot of women, after they’ve had kids sex rates pretty low on the importance scale, and unless they get a rude wake-up call, things just continue on in that vein. I also believe that women really have no idea just how important and necessary sex is to men, and that if someone could communicate that to them, along with all the other baby information they’re absorbing, marriages would be a lot happier. We women find convenient excuses to not have sex, “I have to do the dishes, finish the laundry, I want 15 extra minutes of sleep,” whatever. Sex comes last on a very long list. Unless you want to be wrangling weekends with your ex-husband, you need to find a way to get your “sexay” back. And fwiw, I disagree that finding a bit on the side is a way to keep a marriage together. While there are special cases of illness, for the average person, 15+ years is a long time to go without intimacy. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’d think recreational fucks on the side would not make up for zero sex with one’s wife for close to two decades.
Bizarrely, a paragraph has been removed from this version of Savage Love, but it’s still available on Nerve.com:
“She’s a stay-at-home parent, so she does most of the shopping, laundry, etc., but I contribute to the housework. We live in a large house, so we also have house cleaners and landscapers. Additionally, our kids are respectful and have been taught to pick up after themselves. The bottom line is that I’ve removed all of the obstacles I can think of.”
So yeah, if everyone could get off the tedious, sanctimonious “men are such pigs who never do anything” tip, that’d be great.
Wow, whenever commenters start filling in a lot of very specific details that aren’t in the original letter, a red alert “PROJECTION” meter goes off for me, and there sure is a lot of that going on here on both sides of the issue: some who are sure that PATH is a lazy father/couch-loafer; some who are sure that PATH’s wife is uncurably frigid. Meanwhile, Dan never directly answered PATH’s letter, so PATH’s left with our answers.
PATH, I feel sorry for you, even if I do think you’ve been far short of the perfect husband by repressing your needs and expecting your wife to read your mind about your needs and meet them (or to meet them after you “lose it”). From what you’ve said (which is very little), you don’t necessarily deserve the rants about housekeeping (even if some men do) and your wife doesn’t necessarily deserve the rants about frigid women (even if some women do).
Given how little you’ve explored this issue with your wife, how little you seem to know about your own needs and how very very little you seem to know about your wife’s sexual needs, there is nothing to do but TALK. You’ve spent two years pent up verbally and sexually to no avail. Try two years of open, honest discussion about what she wants/needs/likes/hates, what you want/need/like/hate when it comes to sex. Remember: these are your needs, not hers. It’s not her job to bring them up again unless you explicitly asked and she explicitly agreed. But it is your job to express your needs and her job to listen and respond with care. Doing so respectfully–giving her the head’s up you need to talk, making sure the time/place for the talk works for her, etc–is not the same as pressuring her. In fact, a “perfect husband” makes sure he does respectfully let his partner know what he needs. Do this and you’ll probably end up getting laid. But if you don’t get laid, you will for sure have a lot more information about why not and maybe then Dan and his followers can offer you some helpful advice. And, since you mentioned cheating–it would definitely be a CPOS move to go there without attempting discussion for at least as long as you tried to avoid it.
Canuck @36 I think the husband is the “someone” who should communicate to his wife how important sex is. But most men don’t seem to have the tools to explain how it’s about connection, not just orgasms.
@37 – one of their kids is only 2 years old, so I don’t really think that tot is picking up after himself. But the real issue is the lack of communication in their marriage.
@37–I’m so glad you found that missing paragraph. The rants about what a crappy domestic contributor PATH “is” are way uncalled for (and so are the rants about PATH’s wife).
PATH might deserve a good rant about staying silent for 2 years (minus one day of “losing it”), because he admits to this–and it would be fair for people to suggest he look at possibilities–maybe he’s not taking on enough chores, maybe his wife is frigid–but to rant on as if those are facts? Crappy advice, to say the least.
EricaP, I agree, but why is it when our husbands say things, it can be very easy to dismiss them, whereas if we learned this from what we viewed as an impartial source, we might believe it better? I think a lot of men have trouble communicating that sex is what makes them feel the connection in the first place, rather than being the reward for the connection they’ve already established.
@39 Actually, we have no idea how old the youngest child is. After the birth his advances “were increasingly rejected” before he decided to stop pressuring her, and then two years passed. They could easily have been having increasingly distant and infrequent sex for a couple of years before he reached his decision not to initiate.
@39: The thing is, it’s not just about connection OR orgasms. It’s also about that powerful, hungry force inside of us — a combination of life force, libido, and other things — that needs something to desire, to point itself towards. Part of marriage is about making your spouse be, and maintaining him/her as, the exclusive (or at least primary) object of your desire. It’s hard work at the best of times, and when one spouse rejects the other’s desire, it really does strike at the foundations of the marriage.
Also, for God’s sake, men are constantly hectored on this and other websites about how if their wives/girlfriends aren’t feeling it sexually, they need to back off, give her space, do everything they can to make her feel unstressed and not pressured, and so forth. Yes, it was a mistake to let it go TWO YEARS, but could we at least acknowledge our collective complicity in this?
It sometimes seems like commenters here are bent on setting up rhetorical structures where everything is the guy’s fault and the guy’s responsibility to fix. Maybe his wife has no excuse for her behavior — maybe she wishes she’d married someone else, and by withholding sex and passionate affection from her husband, she’s trying to get him to do something (like having an affair, becoming abusive, etc.) to justify her resentment of him. Maybe, in other words, she’s just a worthless passive-aggressive piece of shit, and not a specimen of poor victimized womanhood.
Thank god for the unkillable sex drive of men. I’ve lost mine from time to time, completely, for years, and the only thing that got me going again was the patient skilled hands of the guy who wanted me. I had no recognizable sex drive when I was not with him, but he could wake me up out of that dead libido state, even if only for a little while, it was such a gift to me to be able to feel completely alive and female again. I was severely depressed at the time, nobody has suggested it but maybe that’s what’s going on with the wife. Her life sounds great from some people’s perspective, but that’s meaningless if your head isn’t in good shape, and I could see it being a particularly hellish prison – everything is perfect, you must be crazy to be unhappy. And that kind of thing is pretty easy to hide, mostly. Other people don’t want to see it, don’t know how to look, and you don’t want them to know. Just a thought.
And the obvious sex-positive marriage counseling hasn’t been suggested yet either. Not surprising he hasn’t pushed that either if they’ve had one conversation, well, ever, about sex in the marriage.
@43 – maybe she was hoping he’d cheat and then they’d never have to talk about it, because that’s the only way she can really imagine them staying together without having sex with each other. It’s really the traditional way, this whole open marriage thing is kinda new to most people. And no adult female in their right mind assumes a guy can comfortably, easily and willingly go for years without sex when they don’t have to. We are aware.
@44, I take it back, Dan suggested it – mental and medical health eval./treatment.
Dan, I am really offended by the insults at the Catholic church in this article. Hurl insults at this woman if you want, but you don’t have to sound so bitter and angry at a religion that does positive things for people and provides a positive impact on the world.
Just wanted to say it really hurt to read your statements. Oh, and you barely gave that guy any advice at all about getting his wife to open up and reignite her sexual relationship with her husband. (Eh, now I’m just guessing you made up that letter.)
“She wants to prance around and show her feminine power by torturing you and make you pay for whatever real or imagined affront she believes you did or did not do. The really fun part is she will NEVER tell you what it is. She will tell her girlfriends, her hairdresser, and her mom but she sure as hell won’t tell you.”
This is one of the saddest, most pitiable cries de coeur I have ever read here, far more wrenching than the original letter. My god, Professor. Is this the kind of woman you’re in a relationship with? Is this what you think of as normal female behavior?
If this has actually happened to you, and especially (god forbid) if it’s happened more than once, please get some kind of help. Read a book, see a counselor, hit yourself with a cast iron frying pan whenever you find yourself irresistibly drawn to a woman – do something to snap the hell out of it and use your brain.
Because the women you’ve been with may well have all been manipulative, sadistic, passive-aggressive bitches, but here’s the horrible old saw that’s nevertheless absolutely true: what do they all have in common? YOU PICKED THEM. Stop dwelling. Stop whining. Stop making dumb choices. You can do it.
@ 48 – He’s a troll; just ignore him.
@41, agreed.
@43, Structurally we find ourselves giving advice to the person writing in. I’m sure that every failed marriage has two people who made mistakes.
But with these sexless marriages, it’s usually the guy writing in. We could tell him to DTMFA, but unless he thinks long and hard about how they got to this point, he’s just going to go through it again with his next partner. It’s common for the sex in long-term relationships to get boring (and trickle off). So the letter-writer deserves advice about how to discuss sex openly with this partner or the next one.
@15 The guy may be selfish, but the wife is worse. The guy has the small excuse of being an idiot. He not getting any and he has no idea why, because he is an moron.
The wife knows excactly what is wrong – he is a lazy bum – but she would rather do all the housework herself and then stew in her own resentment, than open her damn mouth and say something. That is not just moronic, that is cruel.
Drop the baby in his lap, say ‘he needs changing’ and then go for a long walk in the park. Tell him he cant go out with his friends this friday, because he was out last friday and now you’re going out with the girls and somebody needs to look after baby. Don’t ask, don’t argue, just assume that he takes half of the work with the baby and plan accordingly.
And if he really doesn’t want to help, if he flat-out refuses to take his share, then dump him. You don’t need an extra child around.
But don’t make the oh-so-common womens mistake of thinking that the guy can read your mind. He can’t.
I am a woman with a high sex drive (can’t go a day without masturbating–Mrs. PATH could be the same), though at this point (recent virgin) I still find penetration quite painful, so that doesn’t happen that often. I’d be surprised if a woman who has given birth would have the same sensitivity, but she could: she could be depressed, sleep-deprived, have a drinking problem, travel for work, have her needs met through porn/masturbation/an affair/food… he is not doing himself any favors by playing “chicken.”
If this is what middle age means, hopefully I either die a merciful young death or never get married. I likemaking out, oral, and anal play, so why should that stop just because I turn 45? Here I was expecting it to get better as I gained experience! :-/
Oh Jesus, the comments here! It is VERY COMMON for a woman’s hormones to go all wonky after birth, particularly when it’s her second or third child. The first thing she should do is get bloodwork done by an endocrinologist. That is assuming she isn’t being utterly exhausted by childrearing and the husband is doing his fair share to help with the housework. Also, if she is still breastfeeding, forget about sex–lactation hormones kill a woman’s sex drive. It usually takes about six months after weaning for the body to bounce back and sometimes it doesn’t.
In addition to seeing an endocrinologist, she should read my book, The Orgasmic Diet. Changing her diet will help her physiology get back in balance. A woman’s omega-3 fatty acid stores are particularly stressed by pregnancy, and they are crucial for libido.
The problem is that when women lose their libido like this due to physiological changes, they literally forget why sex is important. Not that this guy should be belligerent, but he has to press the issue, and he should not have waited so long.
@11 — The joke’s been done before, and it’s been done better.
You need to pack the kids off to grandma’s and take your wife on an extended trip somewhere romantic and relaxing. Someplace with with bubble baths and long dinners and lots of wine. You’d be surprised what a change of scenery can do. If the two of you aren’t able to reconnect outside your normal environment, then the issue is indeed deep seeded. Level with her about your needs, ask her about hers and suggest you try to reconcile them in therapy.
— http://www.bulletmouth.com
@29 “10 minutes twice is week” is all she “owes” her husband. With an attitude like that, I’m amazed any woman would ever fuck you.
Whenever I read the tale of the long-denied husband, I always wonder if he’s denied because he’s a lousy lay, seeing his wife as a receptacle for his relief rather than a woman with sexual needs of her own.
I’d happily give my partner the 10 minutes he “needs” a few times a week if I knew he’d fuck me senseless for a few **hours** at least twice a month. And not see oral sex as a “chore,” toys as a “threat,” think I’m a whore because I know how to and care about getting off myself, and so on.
GGG straight men are, unfortunately, rare, which is why this is such an old old and familiar story of the married couple who BOTH see sex as a wife’s duty to keep her husband as miniminally satisfied as necessary to keep him around. It’s a suspect contract–a recipe for certain unhappiness once the “deal’s” been sealed–from jump.
I’d bet money the wife isn’t interested in sex because the sex has never been about her.
Oh, Look, 4, 6, 8, 15, 17, 22, 51 are here to play the role of Greek Chorus Blaming the Man for a woman’s lack of sex drive. Rather than deal with the facts presented, they simply make shit up and project it onto this guy.
How very unusual for this board. /eyeroll
Then there is #37, which pretty much shatters that whole train of thought.
The Greek Chorus is singing the standard verse, and thus the woman in this described situation can never, ever be expected to sit down and express her mind and explain her actions, right? The guy is supposed to figure it all out, because men, unlike women, can read minds. And surely the main driver is the guy’s behavior. Surely.
Letterwriter and young guys, listen up: DON’T LISTEN TO THE GREEK CHORUS blaming the man.
Don’t. listen.
That kind of person (usually a middle-aged woman or young guy without kids/wife) will tell you that your not doing chores, not fussing with the baby, not listening to her true feeeewings and all that is why your woman is not screwing you. But ask yourself: was I doing that when she wanted to screw me like a fevered weasal? Nope, you weren’t.
So why would that turn her on now? Truth is, it doesn’t. When she did want to screw you, she didn’t care if there was a dirty dish in the sink. She wanted to screw you.
Every guy who married and had kids also had lots of guy buddies who did the same. Go talk to them about this part of life. Their life stories will tell you way more about what is going on her than the Greek Chorus. Those people have much, much less to share than they think. They are narrow-minded people of little empathy, who quite ironically pride themselves on being the exact opposite.
Dan could have given the guy the courtesy of a direct answer instead of dragging his tv show into it first.
That said, he’s in the same position that every advice columnist since Dear Abby has been in with easily 50% of published letters — having to tell someone there’s no substitute for Using Your Words, and knowing the advice is probably going to be ignored.
I don’t know what’s wrong with this marriage. And neither do you, other commenters — there’s not enough information in the letter. But the only path to solving it is going to involve a long, uncomfortable, non-exploding conversation between husband and wife. Even — maybe especially — if this guy wants to follow Dan’s reflexive advice to open the marriage. I just don’t see this guy as having the courage or the willpower to have that conversation.
My amateur advice to PATH – write a letter:
Start off by emphasizing all the great things in the relationship. But the lack of sex is threatening the union. Explain why sex is both emotionally and physically important to you. Give detail on the effect the lack of sex is having on your psyche and your sense of self-worth. Emphasize that the sex you want is with her, not just anyone. Tell her how much you miss your early stages of sexual adventure together, and perhaps describe a couple acts you did together in the past that you loved.
But also – I think you need to give her a wake up call. Whether it includes the possibility of ending the relationship or going outside, there needs to be a concrete statement that you won’t allow this to continue.
Invite her to write you back. Ask her to explain what you can do to help bring her interest in sexual intimacy back. If there are other deeper issues preventing her from wanting to be intimate with you or anyone else.
The letter writing process has worked for me. It allows you to soberly explain your feelings without the heat of argument or saying things you regret.
Canuck @36 – I love your insight into how (some, many?) women feel. My two thoughts from the man’s perspective:
1) Not to give too much credit to the rant @58, but his second and third last paragraphs resonate. I know helping with dishes, diapers, etc will lead to more sex. It still stings to know that the wife doesn’t have the urge to throw the dishes on the floor and fuck on the countertop like the old days. At the risk of making a very sexist comment (let the arrows fly) the equivilent would be me faking interest in my wife’s day so she could feel connected enough to have sex. Just as the wife would like to think her husband cared about the details in her life, the husband would like to think his wife actually has a raw desire to fuck her husband irrespective of the pile of laundry.
2) Your comment “And fwiw, I disagree that finding a bit on the side is a way to keep a marriage together.” A lot of men can compartmentalize sex and emotional intimacy. I am only speculating as I have never done the CPOS route. But if I hit the kind of drought PATH hit, finding an outlet safely and discreetly on the side would relieve a lot of tension and allow me to focus on the good of the relationship with Mrs. Horton and keep the family intact.
Dan – Have you ever read the Bible? we have been released from the old testament law by Jesus. We no Longer have to adhere to the rigors of the Law because Jesus came to provide us a way to God if only we beleive.
As far a being Gay, it is stated it is wrong in the newtestament as well. God created man and Woman…not two men. We are instructed to love you where you are, but we are not to love the sin that is the Gay lifestyle.
We can not create our own God!
I’m glad we all got to hear about what Dan’s been up to. Good thing he reserved a few sentences for advice!
@ 62 – ” We can not create our own God!”
The mere fact that there are many religions with different gods that are each supposedly the sole and rightful one is clear evidence that we have created our gods.
If that’s not enough for you, then read the incredibly inconsistent book known as the bible, and ask yourself if one single god really would have inspired this piece of crap writing.
@30 – I’m not surprised your libido returned. But, if you really thought of your husband as just another baby for some years, it seems a bit lucky that it returned aimed at him. If it was largely an act of will on your part to direct it that way, well done.
Bravo, Dan. You are a brilliant man. And that bitch it totally wrong, I’m a lady and you have given me the best sex advice ever.
Ricardo:
/threadjack flag
Don’t feed the troll
“…and it seems a little hypocritical of Gallagher to suggest that I’m not qualified to offer advice to women, since I don’t fuck ’em, without first telling that old fag in Rome to STFU already.”
Oh, you’ve done it now: GLAAD is not happy when people use the word “fag” (not sure about British references to cigarettes, though smoking’s bad 4 u, so I suppose they should be), even/especially gay men who sometimes/frequently self-identify as a “fag”. And don’t even get them started on the ‘false-consciousness’ of trans-persons who self-identify as “trannies”. For the sake of a specific, sanitized, norm-conforming vision of The Gay Community, please apologize, Dan.
Hey, Tim Horton! Re: the compartmentalizing, funny that no matter what we say, we still come at things from male/female perspectives that can be so different! For me, when I’m mad about one thing, I would never say that my relationship was good in ten other areas, it’s kind of all or nothing, and that may be how a lot of the tension/confusion starts in male/female relationships. That’s where I genuinely don’t understand how a man can love someone, think they’re a wonderful person, agree on politics, praise all of their lovely qualities, and yet be missing something so essential to them as sex. But as you say, I think men are much better at compartmentalizing that way than women are. For me, if sex/intimacy was missing from my marriage, getting a bit on the side wouldn’t work long-term, because I would want that intimacy/connection with my partner. But your take on it, that men can separate sex from intimacy, and that (hypothetically) you could be relatively happy in your marriage as long as you were getting sex somewhere is totally eye-opening. And I completely agree that if you were in the kind of insane drought that LW is experiencing, going outside of your marriage would be completely justified. It’s good, I think, that men (in general) are able to compartmentalize that way, because I was thinking you would still be really sad about the lack of intimacy, but if it’s more of a “basic maintenance” thing, then that’s kind of win-win for your family and you, in Dan’s context of trying to keep families together. And the letter thing, isn’t that the greatest!? I’ve always done that (don’t always send them, though, sometimes just lets me vent…), as it lets you get your thoughts out without being sidetracked.
And not to be a nosy Parker, but I remember you saying you were “counting down” to when your kids were the magical age EricaP’s were when she got her groove back…I might humbly suggest that your wife won’t necessarily have an epiphany when your youngest is eight, or whatever, that she needs more sex, you may have to “prepare the soil,” as it were. Personally, I’d start sooner rather than later…reading sexy stories in bed at night, weekends without the kids, etc…just to speed things along 🙂
I am reminded of a time back in the day when we all had young kids and one of our friends was reported to have said, “I wish that just once I could wake up in the morning without a hard dick poking me in the butt.”
Not surprisingly, she eventually got her wish.
Do you wonder if gals like #30 ever reflect much, during that time they infantilize their mates, on the (likely) fact that the extra “baby” around the house is working his ass off to bring home a paycheck and abjuring sex with other women to maintain his relationship with her?
The thanks for the “baby’s” multi-year devotion to the family, demonstrated daily? Being seen (and likely treated, as a result) as just a another “kid” around the house.
Talk about treating someone like shit who doesn’t deserve it.
Do women like 30 pause to seriously consider how they are treating the men they are supposedly in love with? Seriously consider, and then ask the men? I have yet to meet a man who experienced that. I have met loads of very mature, responsible guys, though, who were treated like kids by their mates.
If you consider a grown man just another kid, is that really what the guy in your life–the father of your children–deserves?
Because if so, you made a really, really bad choice in hooking up with him. Remedy that by setting him free from obligation to you without rancor or bitterness. You made a mistake in assessing him, and you should let him go find someone who will appreciate him. Oh, and then live with the consequences that follow.
Another interesting facet of 30’s mindset is that the husband will typically have many friends, relatives, co-workers, and work subordinates who view him as competent, mature, and quite helpful. But when he goes home, -wham-, he is viewed quite differently by the person who is supposed to treasure him most. That is the reverse of the adage that if you meet ten assholes in a day, they are not the asshole, you are: If your mate is viewed as pleasant, useful and competent (perhaps even attractive) by others who encounter your mate, but you cling to a view of them as a boner-killing “baby”, my guess is you are the one off base, not everyone else.
In sum, viewing a grown man as just another kid is a GREAT way to kill a man’s interest in you, ladies. It is like your guy sitting around obsessing about your crow’s feet and cellulite. Dwell on it enough, without considering the positive, and you are ending the relationship without bothering to tell the other person.
Lots of interesting takes on this topic already.
And we’ve recently had a similarly informative and enlightening discussion on slog in response to a SLLOTD about a married man who wasn’t having enough sex with his wife (but nowhere near this two-year desert!).
There is a lot of anger here on this thread: anger from women who feel or have felt exhausted, unassisted, and resentful at their husbands, whom they regard as another of the people making burdensome demands on their time, energy, and bodies, and anger from men who feel as though some sort of bait-and-switch has been pulled on them, and who want their wives to WANT to have sex with them–enough to not mind that there are chores to do–and not to see sex as an obligation.
All these discontents are legitimate. Both sides are valid.
Several people, however, have made some very important points, which may or may not be operative here in this particular letter-writer’s case, but which may also apply to the disgruntled people who are weighing in with their dinner-plate-sized chips planted on their shoulders.
Marrena (@53) was right about a number of things: the fact that hormonal shifts associated with pregnancy, childbirth, and lactation often affect libido, but also that for many women, when their libido drops and the sex tapers off,they truly do forget why sex is important and how much it brings emotional and physical satisfaction. That is, if the sex is good. As maddy811 (@57) says, many men aren’t interested in the woman’s pleasure, and after years of sex which has nothing much in it for her, a woman may understandably not care to make it a priority if her libido is low and she is feeling exhausted anyway.
And it isn’t always hormonal shifts or resentment, but just plain old exhaustion that can get in the way. When I didn’t have time to do what I needed to do to make myself feel attractive, I didn’t want to have sex with my ex-husband, because then the sex didn’t feel like it could possibly be about his desire for ME, it just felt like he wanted to stick his dick in a hole, and mine was the available vagina. It didn’t matter if he still thought I was sexy and desirable: if I didn’t feel it, I couldn’t buy it that he did, and I couldn’t let myself enjoy it. And for several years after having babies, for a combination of all those reasons, I didn’t feel it. It came back. I also think that even those of us women who love sex and have a high libido (and I am again in that category), don’t have the same response to lack of sexual release that men do. There’s no doubt that I feel happier in my daily life if I’m getting good sex on a regular basis, but I don’t think I’d be actively angry, jumpy, irritable, and snappish if it wasn’t happening frequently. Or maybe I would feel those things, but wouldn’t think to make the explicit connection and ascribe my general dissatisfaction with sexual dissatisfaction–an interesting thought.
But finally, I think that Canuck (@41) has really hit on it when she said: “I think a lot of men have trouble communicating that sex is what makes them feel the connection in the first place, rather than being the reward for the connection they’ve already established.”
This is crucial. This can only be resolved through communication–long, patient, talks, not confrontational accusations couched in bitterness and resentment. For whatever reasons, this is often a huge disconnect between men and women, particularly in the context of a long-term relationship, and it needs to be remembered and addressed.
Probably already said, but how is it being the perfect husband to tamp down on your feelings for more than a year. What’s wrong with asking “Yo, babe, when we gonna start fucking again?” as soon as you want to know? Can’t hurt to ask. Now they’re stuck in an ugly pattern. I know Dan thinks marriage counselors are not very sex positive, but these two are apparently having communication issues that go way beyond sex.
When I had my first child I joined a support group for new moms. One day when our babies were about 4-5 months old, we started a discussion about how our sex lives had changed as a result of motherhood. One after the other, we reported being too bone-tired or having no libido as reasons why the sex was virtually non-existent–and that we didn’t care. And then one of us said, “I have sex 1-2 times a week.” We expressed our doubts that she was in the mood and she said, “No; but I feel it’s too important to our relationship. I want to feel connected and keep that sense of intimacy. And I hope that at some point my interest in sex for its own sake will return and I think it will be better if we don’t have to start up from scratch then.”
It made a lot of sense.
@ 67 – As far as I’m concerned, anyone who tells me who I should answer or not is a troll. Especially when they’re not registered.
i had the same problem – no sex after our child was born. i tried to initiate and was rejected so many times i got totally turned off sex. went 2 years without even a fantasy, because any sexual feelings brought on feelings of pain, loneliness, rejection and anger.
but i’m a woman, and it was my (first)husband who withheld. my life is good now, but i stayed in that marriage way too long.
I have the perfect Solution. The wife should hire a female to help her with the “load” she’s unwilling to bear herself. Or he can find someone himself!
Any girl or woman over the age of 12 knows what a big deal sex is to men. They may not understand why it is so or what men experience emotionally but they absolutely know that sex is a big deal. Don’t make excuses for people who refuse to see that. It is their enormous failing. They are subjecting other people, people they profess to love, to extreme hurt.
While it’s perfectly reasonable to say that one’s libido can disappear with physical exhaustion it’s inexcusable to say that women experience some kind of selective amnesia about sex. If your husband went out and fucked someone else you would absolutely explain the importance of it to him at length. Don’t lie about that. Deal with it. As Dan says, you should acknowledge the rough time your marriage is experiencing and at the very least give credit to the person being sexually deprived.
If a married couple don’t have sex for 2 years and neither one of them talks about it then they are both EQUALLY to blame. They should both have screaming alarms going off in their heads.
If my wife doesn’t have sex with me it’s not because I have a history of treating her like a cum dumpster. What gives you the nerve to belittle me or my wife or our marriage like that? Fuck you.
@ 69 – About “basic maintenance”, I remember telling a female friend who thought I was sex-obsessed – those were my mostly-sexless days, a long long time ago – that there’s one thing women can’t seem to understand: after a few days, it actually hurts not to have sex. Physically. No wonder sex soon becomes “the only thing men can think about. (Ever heard the term “blue balls”? Well, it wasn’t coined for nothing. They may not get blue, but it sure feels like it.)
I’m nearly 38 (yes, I started counting backwards from 42 as you advised), and I can now go sexless for about 5 days. Needless to say, at this rate, masturbation got boring about 30 years ago (sorry, I meant 23).
I won’t go as far as saying that men like or want sex more than women, but I’m quite convinced they physically need it more.
And your point that “sex is what makes [men] feel the connection in the first place, rather than being the reward for the connection they’ve already established” is absolutely right on.
@69 and @72 – I really appreciate your candid insight into the female psyche. Specifically this @72: “There’s no doubt that I feel happier in my daily life if I’m getting good sex on a regular basis, but I don’t think I’d be actively angry, jumpy, irritable, and snappish if it wasn’t happening frequently”
As a frustrated husband, I have had all those feelings and more. The best I can describe lack of sexual release is like an itch I have to scratch. It can literally cause knots in my stomach. It becomes consuming. I can’t think of anything but the itch. Then, to be around the only person who can ethically scratch it, and who refuses, causes the resentment that follows. That causes the viscous passive-aggressive cycle: If she won’t even scratch the itch, then why am I bringing home a paycheck, helping with the dishes etc?
Having someone else scratch the itch (compartmentalizing sex from emotions) isn’t going to replace the loss of emotional intimacy but it will allow me to focus on the good rather than have the itch cosume the relationship.
Three things that have helped us, that I would share with other men/couples in this boat:
1) Accepting that the wife’s lack of desire is not personal, but hormonal + exhaustion. I heard this from her, but reading candid anonymous comments here helps sync the message.
2) Counting oral sex as sex. And viewing my wife’s offer of quick oral a couple times a week to get rid of the tension as a sign that my wife cares about me rather than her trying to shut me up.
3) Hearing that things can and do get better as the kids get older. Thanks EricaP and others.
Canuck @69 – love the suggestions for laying the groundwork. I would be more effusive in my love for you but I don’t want to be John Deere and cut GloomyGus’s grass….
In the inimitable words of P.G. Wodehouse: “Marriage is not a process for prolonging the life of love. It merely mummifies the corpse.”
Ricardo, I think that’s a very important distinction: Not that I would speak for all women, but for a lot of us, while we look forward to sex, lack of it doesn’t have quite the same physical toll. (The cranky, antsy, pent-up feeling that men are describing.)
jenesasquatch, while I agree that women know sex is important to men, I really think they (women) tend to put it into the context of their own desires and needs, much in the same way they might say, “well, I want chocolate cake for breakfast, but I don’t need it, and it’s also kind of juvenile to want it so often in the first place.” It probably seems like such a no-brainer to men, the physical importance of sex, but for a lot of women, they truly need to be taught this, not just in the heat of the moment, but patiently, over time. I’m aware that there are some women who will be told this repeatedly, and still belittle/ignore it, but I think a lot us us just need that wake up call.
Tim Horton@80 Woot! (as gus and I would say…) about number 2 on your list…man, you’re still getting BJs? You are golden, seriously. Speaking as a formerly tired mum, if your wife is doing that for you, that speaks volumes, in my humble opinion. Women don’t do that when they’re out of love, pissed in general, or any other negative thing. That is an offering of love…I sense things will be looking up (heh) for you once your kids are no longer quite such demanding rugrats.
And gus? Not to worry…our unique imaginary relationship has weathered worse storms than a little lawn maintenance…separated at birth as we were, and all… 🙂
TL;DR
Is that soapbox full of Ivory or Irish Springs? Come on, man…you’re a SEX columnist. Yes,yes, it’s cool that you advocate for issues that you blahblahblah, but lately your columns have been more MEMEME than helping USUSUS. Jesus.
“Waking up to hard dick poking in the butt” – while this is not PATH’s problem I will say that I hate to be poked for sex when I’m in the middle of a sleep cycle! Whether I’m exhausted or just down for another hour, it’s annoying to be woken up to a different kind of alarm clock – someone else’s. It takes me 15 mins to warm up to sex at a time like that, and I have to really want to please my male partner so I can set aside that feeling of irritation and be a GGG girl. Took me YEARS to get to the point where I could be generous and not resentful.
On PATH. Says he wanted to be the perfect husband so he stuffed down his feelings. That’s so sad! Sounds like my Dad’s generation, actually. Stoicism was how it was done. My Dad dealt with my Mom’s rages by total denial (which really did a number on the kids) and when I asked him about it all these years later, he said sadly, “I just thought these things had to be endured.”
PATH, if you have an affair you wife can soak you on alimony. But you can’t force people feel a certain way, or act a certain way, if it’s not their will to do so. The only thing you have control over is yourself: your actions, your attitude, your choices. While seeking solo therapy isn’t going to make your wife lustful again, it might help you clarify what your next steps should be, since you seem to be in a terrible bind where you want what you can’t have but you won’t accept alternatives.
I think, as usual, Tim Horton hits the nail on the head. A letter, expressing his feelings, exactly how he outlined in THIS letter, would be great, especially if he starts with how much he values the marriage, how he does NOT want to look outside, and all the postives he has put forth. But OMG!!! If she does not pick up the slack after that, I am not one of those who says “divorce, divorce divoce”, because, well….look at all those good things, and now they have children, but man….
Contrary to the fable all those ridiculous bible thumpers beleive in on the thread, this is all we have got folks! Do you really want to have your one go around without SEX???? Screw that. Go get yourself a lover. There are a lot of poor neglected ladies out there, and with the letter, you are absolved of the CPOS label. She has had fair warning. She won’t work with you, she won’t compromise….you gave her *more* then adequate space (hell, I was back in the saddle 6 weeks after #1, and only made it 4 after #2…but I know I am weird)….life is too short. Find someone married like you and discreet.
I heart Canuck 🙂
And…SOME girls have the same feelings as guys when we go without sex! Its a physical need for some of us too! I get the same way…snappish, grouchy, moody….almost the same exact way I get when my blood sugar drops too low. I know a lot of women are all emotional and lovey dovey, and I can get that way as well, but trust me guys….sometimes there are girls out there who just need a good lay too, just like you do! Now way in HELL I could go a week, much less YEARS without it. I would take someone’s head off! Really inconcievable. I guess it just depends on a person’s individual hormonal make-up, as I know there are poor undersexed ladies out there who are struggling with their hubby’s lack of desire.
Man, reading these comments all the way through now has me completely depressed. “He does this!” “Oh, yeah? Well she does THAT!” Blah blah blah. This issue is complicated, folks. However, most issues are never as effing complicated as all our talking makes them out to be. First thing’s first, LW: RELAX. I know you’re upset, hurt, angry, or whatever emotion in response to this right now, but getting worked up never helps. The longer the couple goes without, the more the pressure builds until the pink elephant is actually busting out the rooftop. Get rid of the pink elephant in your mind. Take a deep breath. Relax. Then, say in a very calm tone of voice, “Honey, what’s up? What’s up with you? I wanna know what’s going on so we can work through this. Together. You start, and I’ll listen.” Then actually listen. Try to do so without thinking of your retorts. Let her say what’s up. Don’t make up your mind going in that you know what’s up (which is what feeling rejected really is–deciding you know why you’re getting shot down, and that reason is you suck). Just. Listen. Then. Talk. Usually when I do this, I find out my partner and I were always more on the same page than not. The fight was about the fight.
@82 Canuck
I think you have a double standard. If a bunch of men were on here making excuses for the X-withholding husband (X=love,respect,affection,etc.) of a female LW you would rightly come un-fucking-glued. You can’t rationalize away the callous disregard of someone who denies their lover any one of a number of essential needs that you goddamn well know they have. You wouldn’t be gently encouraging the woman to remember to explain to the man that women have this different need from men. You would say DTMFA because he reached adulthood and marriage without spending 5 minutes understanding the opposite sex. Or worse he understands but didn’t care enough to make even the discussion of it a priority.
@ 82 – “while I agree that women know sex is important to men, I really think they (women) tend to put it into the context of their own desires and needs”
I think that’s a mistake we all make, men and women, gay or straight, in relationships: trying to reconceptualize our SO’s desires so that they fit ours… One of the main reasons my last relationship failed. My ex just couldn’t care when I said “I need X”, since he didn’t; he just hoped that if he was patient enough, I would stop asking/nagging him, not realizing that it really meant “or else I’m out of here”. (Wait a minute, make that my 5 last relationships)
Erica P., and Canuck, can I be you when I grow up? I don’t have any skin in this game, yet, but I’ve watched a few friends go through it, and from what I’ve seen, constant communication is key. That, and blow jobs are sex.
Dan, what the fuck? I waited all week for this? Need to step it up, glad your getting all famous and stuff but don’t forget what got you here. More crazy kinky, fucked up letters please! Maybe it’s because you’re getting old that your column sort of sucks now.
jenesasquatch, I’m sure I have a double standard, even if it’s unintentional, that’s what I was trying to say, that women sometimes come from such a different perspective on this subject that they truly are clueless…in the same way we say men are clueless if they never talk, communicate, show affection, etc., and then wonder why their wives are put off (I’m not talking about you, here.) I really shouldn’t speak for all women, obviously, so I’ll just give you my personal experience: I don’t generally consider myself to be unaware in general, or clueless, or callous (okay, really sarcastic, but…), or an asshole in general. I know I have plenty of faults, but I honestly Did. Not. Get It. when it came to not enough sex. After fucking like rabbits in the early days, when it dwindled after kids, I just did not grasp how important it was to my husband. And this probably isn’t helped by female culture in general, the eye-rolling amongst friends, “oh, it’s never enough, is it?” which is completely obnoxious and unfeeling, but maybe this is what women do to gain a little power. I’m NOT justifying, just trying to figure it out.
All that said, when a husband has explained the importance of sex (we aren’t mind readers, either! we know in some nebulous way, but it helps to have it laid out), and if his wife is still rejecting/denying, then that IS a problem that needs a wake-up call.
riley: *mwah!*
divine miss em: careful what you wish for, dear, my husband, for one, views me as more of a cautionary tale.. 🙂
@86. Thanks Badgirl, and I agree with you. I have never understood how it is more virtuous to end a marriage (with kids) before you step outside of it. Staying for the sake of the kids is cliche for a reason (or so was my experience as a child of a messy divorce). If after PATH writes the letter or has the ultimate discussion and nothing changes, it would seem to be the lesser of two evils to get something discreetly on the side than to toss the kids back and forth between two houses depending on the day of the week. If there is no marriage to save, that is different. But if everything is otherwise good, it would likely benefit the kids to see his smiling face every day than every other weekend. And be the beneficiary of 100% of his financial resources.
As for your lack of religion: I used to be in the agnostic camp, but as I was reading Dan Savage’s response to Maggie Gallagher I started yelling “AMEN” a lot. I am calling it an epiphany. If we get another shot at this world, I would like to sign up to be Mr. Badgirl. I will settle for Mr. Badgirl on the side.
Lots of good ideas here, and lots of bitter, bitter, people as well. Maybe we need an IGBP for couples whose relationship is in the sexual doldrums?
Let me start: Boys, IT GETS BETTER. While I can’t speak to relationships that are sexless for non-kid reasons, I have gone through the post-baby sex drought twice, with two different women, ten years apart. In fact, I am still in the tail end of the second one. (Heh, “tail”.) I’ve actually had sex twice in the last three days, and it’s the first time that frequency has been reached in almost a year. (The youngest is almost ten months old. Coincidence? I think not.)
It is getting better, and it will continue to do so. And while we can talk about who is tired and who is doing chores and who is working all day to bring home the bacon and who should be keeping whom serviced and how long it should take and how often and do blow jobs count and is masturbation enough and oh yeah do you ever go down on her and and and… I don’t think any of that matters as much as two simple things:
1. Communication. TALK ABOUT IT.
2. Attribution. DON’T BLAME EACH OTHER.
1 helps you get to 2.
Post-baby monasticism is a temporary condition that can be attributed to fatigue, hormones, and a general “I don’t feel sexy” attitude that is the result of the very real physical changes caused by pregnancy and birth. If you don’t want it to become permanent, recognize and remember that fact: it is temporary, unless your reaction to it – e.g. resentement – creates new reasons – e.g. resentment – for it to continue.
And remember: you love each other. That’s why you got together, that’s (I hope) why you had kids together, and that’s (I hope) why you will, on the one hand, accept that you aren’t going to get as much as you are used to right now and, on the other hand, accept that you are going to need to offer a few maintenance hand-, blow-, or tit- jobs.
Wow your hatefilled comments here really reveal what you are about. You hate everything that is wholesome, traditional, or Godfearing. Its good to finally recognize your name. I think its time for you to learn what people of traditional values and mindset feel about your ripping apart of everything good and holy — just for the joy of you pleasuring your johnson.
Canuck: you might be a more typical woman. Maybe I am more in between, but I *know* I am not alone…because of my vagina (lol!) I have been privy to those conversations where I hear talk of the “dutiful” blowjobs…really?!?!?!? you REALLY don’t LOVE the incredible moans, the delicious sense of power, or hell, just the incredible sensation of your lovers member sliding down your throat??? Are you *kidding* me? Of course, my housewife friends are equally agast at my enthusiasm, and then tell me promptly to stay the hell away from their husbands, lol! As if…*roll eyes*. So maybe that is why I am with the boys here, and I am trying so hard to understand this concept of “dutiful sex”. I guess the more boring sex with my husband as opposed to my lover….but that is only because it sucks. And even when I go too long without that, I *still* want that! And I know I am not the only woman who feels this way!
So…its NOT guys vs. girls!!!!! People keep saying that! How many letters has Dan answered from poor frustrated WOMEN?????
And Tim Horton *smewtch*!!! For sure, you sound like a real catch *grin*. Perhaps you would even be able to keep up! I would like to think perhaps I could be (mostly) monogamous if I were being satisfied at home ;). I do think too many marriages end for infidelity….we need to take a more European outlook on the whole affair thing. Let’s just keep then safe and discreet…hell, I can’t imagine how moody Mr. Badgirl on the side would be if I were not his release valve! I know he goes *months*…I am providing an unknown service for her ;).
@ 97 – If god is love, why is it in any way required to fear it?
The one thing he didn’t say anything about is romance. I initiated sex sounds like I turned on the ignition in the car. They definetly need to be more honest with each other but the perfect husband may want to wine and dine the mother of his child so she can feel sexy. Or maybe send her to a spa for a girls day
I’m a gay guy who was married to a woman for 20 years; we had 4 children. I’m sure I was a crappy lover to her (I had to pretend she was a guy, or that I was some other, straight, guy) but I LOVED our babies and I loved helping take care of them. I fed and changed and bathed them whenever I wasn’t at work. We took turns getting up at night, too, when one of the kids cried. I know my early involvement with their development aided their acceptance of our divorce, my coming out, and finding a gay partner. And I’m still friends with their mom, too.
Anyway, my point is, she LOVED having sex and didn’t mind initiating it…probably because I helped out with the kids and the house enough to prevent her from being exhausted.
Excellent comment, Backyard.
I am female, and I don’t think most women have any idea of how important sex is to men, and how belittling it can feel to be denied, week and week or even month after month, by the person that you love.
I don’t think I had any idea of it when I was younger.
Just to bring my experience in, arguing against “discreet” outside affairs. For me, my husband’s decision to see an escort was a Huge Wake Up Call.
I understand why he felt he had to just do it, because I had gotten snippy with him that year (about how many hours he was working, and how he was probably having an affair, ha ha, and how he just came home at midnight, wanted to fuck and go to sleep, then headed back to work in the morning). So, yeah, our communication lines were in trouble. But I’m awfully glad I found out after just a few months, not after years had gone by. The big lie was way worse to survive than the outside sex.
Do y’all think this is probably common, that the hard years of intense child-rearing & nursing come at the same time as the hard years of putting in long hours to get where you want to go in your career? Early on there was time for both sex and conversation… then suddenly there was barely time for anything.
Jesus people! If I didn’t already intend to never marry or beget children, this topic–again–would certainly cinch it for me.
Why would anybody want to sign up for this deal? It’s not even about the sex. How could anyone share a life with someone who is such an alien? Is this about those wierd gender-typical hetero couples’ inability to communicate with each other, or just general human failing?
The whole depressing mess just makes me want to turn in any gender affiliation card and start my own club.
jenesaquatch @90 – what’s up? Yes, “callous disregard” calls for DTMFA. Have you come to the conclusion that that’s what your wife is offering you? But you can’t accuse all wives of “callous disregard,” when it’s often about poor communication on both sides, and lack of time & energy to fix things.
@85 tastes differ… “Waking up to hard dick poking in the butt” — I love that!
@ 106 – Agreed.
A hard-on should be viewed as a potential gift, not as a threat. You may not want it every morning, but it’s a good thing that it’s available. Of course, if it actually becomes threatening, you might want to wonder what you’re doing with the person attached to it.
@105 EricaP
Yes, I think my wife has always had a callous disregard for my sexuality. It’s a new thing for me to face that and to say it. We love each other but she has this failing. It is a failing.
The comments leading up to my comment @78 really upset me. I saw a lot of excuses for the failings of others being made much to the detriment of people like me. In my life I have been guilty of callous disregard in other ways. The proper way to deal with that is not to make excuses but to take responsibility and to make the necessary changes. Going forward from a better understanding of our mistakes includes calling bullshit on those still behaving badly. Making excuses for them just perpetuates the problem.
My respect for Canuck and for you is undiminished if you disagree with me. But at this point in my life I find it inexcusable for people to go straight to rationalizing the behavior of PATH’s wife and maligning his contribution to daily life in their marriage and belittling his sexual performance in the total absence of data.
@7 – I’m quite certain Dan was being facietious about the show being MTV’s first foray into non-musical programming. I mean, his next sentence mentions that Piper Palin is the show’s co-producer, and she isn’t even 10 years old yet.
Until human animals develop telepathy, we have to talk to communicate. The husband and wife are both cowards for not talking about what is important. Sex (like the mortgage and raising of kids) needs to be honestly discussed and freely negotiated in and for a happy relationship. There’s no “one size fits all” for sexual satisfaction, so they should wo/man up, deal, and find their way together.
Incidentally, this is what it looks like when I’m enraged. Pretty scary, huh?
Yes, 89, this.
I struggled mightily in the beginning of our relationship to bridge the I-needed-to-feel-close-to-him-to-have-sex/he-wanted-sex-to-feel-close-to-me gap. And it wasn’t that I was clueless, but like Canuck, sort of didn’t get it on one level- it seemed so much more voluntary than the other things I had going on in our life, and it fell to the bottom of the list. Any more than I could imagine walking into my husband’s office and saying- blow off your boss! don’t finish your super important projects! who needs a salary- take off for a while! I couldn’t understand why I was expected to drop all that I had to do that NEVER STOPPED for something that frankly, just didn’t rank all that high on an emotional or physical scale for me. And yes, that was a problem, too- compounded by birth control (the only one that worked, the Pill, also wrecked my nerves, not to mention my libido) or lack of working ones- which led to more kids- and lack of emotional closeness not getting met from either direction, and me not lining up with him in terms of what we wanted from sex at all. It seems simplistic to say we were young and dumb and stupid, but that, I believe, was a lot of it.
So for me, it became something else I was expected to do, and that led to resentment. Any joy or pleasure I had ever gotten-and believe me, kids came so fast and often there was hardly time for me to work that out- was lost under the obligation of “being a good wife” and “making him happy”. The obvious answer- ask for what I wanted- was lost under the fact that I wanted, deeply, to be a good mother and good wife.
I’m not saying dads don’t key into their kids, but for me, the primary caregiver, motherhood and all it entails was way more intrinsic to my being and less able to be picked up and put down than fatherhood and his involvement was by my husband, who left his job at the office and couldn’t fathom why I couldn’t. Sounds like the way some commenters have described their feelings about sex.
Compromise is a tricky thing. It requires understanding and compassion and empathy and work. As much as I try to understand my husband, I don’t think he ever really understood me on this, either. And I know he’d say he tried to. But the day I finally said, “look, I just don’t want to have sex. With YOU” nearly blew his head off. I was tired of trying to do what he wanted, which was never enough, without feeling like I was getting anything back. His version of an acceptable sex life has evolved to him being minorly satisfied, and whatever I eek out is a bonus, and a mystery. This is the result of “doing what he needs” for all these years. I’d love to talk about this with him- or forward this column and comments and discuss- but “other people’s sex lives aren’t his business”.
It hurts my heart and hurts my body, too- ever heard of “pink balls’? I thought I’d invented it until I got on the wide, wonderful internet and burned up Scarleteen at the ripe age of 43-but I deserve more than feeling used, and so does he. At this point, no sex is no more frustrating than unsatisfying sex for me. I’m sure he disagrees.
Look, we aren’t all shrews and harridans. We want to do the right things, too. But we need to be met at least partway. And deciding you aren’t happy if you can’t have it all your way isn’t compromise from either side. Neither is giving in to all that the other person wants.
I find it odd, yet common, that many women, once they have a baby, it’s like their hormones say, “Okay, I did what I was put her to do, now we can shut down some of this stuff”. I’m ‘seeing’ a guy whose wife is like that. It’s physical ONLY, no emotions, though he knows that should I find my own relationship, we’re done and he has to find someone else to fill ‘that’ need. Unfortunately, his wife is a ‘black or white’ person, and there is no allowance for taking care of his needs, and I find it truly unfair that when one person decides they no longer want or need sex, that they are also making that decision for their partner, though I guess it’s all part of the ‘for better or for worse’ they originally signed up for.
EricaP: you will find that I advocated that the letter be written 1st. I always feel the spouse should be given fair warning. THEN if things don’t change, game on.
Not everyone lives in your situation. Some of our spouses are not OK with open marriages, and do NOT change, despite the HUGE warning signals we might offer up. At that point, we have 3 options….divorce, live a sexless life…
or cheat.
I’m with BadGirl on the whole getting cranky if I go too long without. My husband tends to run on a different clock than I do and has a lower drive. We do a LOT better when I communicate with him about my needs, especially about frequency (once/week is really not sufficient).
We don’t have kids yet, but the advice given by a lot of the people here will hopefully really help in the next few years with regards to maintaining the intimacy and connection. Thanks 🙂
cattycat: Amen girl! Me too, and she keeps him on a tiny little leash like a pet monkey; its all I can do to snag what little time I can with him. Hell, you would think she would be happy to meet me, another married girl, who has no intention of stealing him away from his family, but only wants to spend “quality time” with him, and sends him home happy, satisfied, and in a wonderous mood!!! I have no doubt she loves him….but he loves spending time with me, because we are so “passionate” together.
Ladies….if you don’t find a way, there are women like me who are lonely at home as well, who just might find your man attractive and interesting. Not a threat, merely an observation.
Untill human animals develop telepathy, we have to talk to communicate. Both husband and wife are cowards for not talking. Sex (like the mortgage ans raising kids) needs to be honestly discussed and freely negotiated in and for a happy relationship. Sexual taste is not a one size fits all. Couple should wo/man up and deal directly with topic before the ripples get too big and break the peace.
@108 I was offering a possibility, just a possibility, in light of actual data. There are a high percentage of adult women who never have and or rarely ever do orgasm with their partners. I don’t think the issue is who’s to “blame” for that, but that we should acknowledge that there’s a very common understanding out there that women are (see Professor’s comments above if you can stomach them) “obliged” to provide sex as nothing more than a relief receptacle. If those were the actual circumstances, that doesn’t then mean its the guy’s “fault” because a couple’s sex life is by definition something they’ve established together. So, in that light, EricaP’s questions about whether or not the woman masturbates, likes sex for herself, voices fantasies, etc. are acknowledging that women should take responsibility for the quality of sex in their lives. They cannot just expect men to know how to please them. It’s also true that some women internalize the virgin/whore shit, seeing sex as something they do out of obligation to keep the guy–sex and marriage therefore a contract rooted in endless manipulation and power games. I never said that only men can understand sex this way and therefore it’s this man’s “fault.”
I don’t think any person should hold another person’s sexuality hostage. Period. Ever. I think it’s abusive to withhold sex from a life partner for months and then years at at time, and I think she’s “to blame” (ugh) in that she hasn’t voiced what’s going on for her and/or doesn’t give a crap that her husband is so unhappy. At some level, it doesn’t matter what her reason is if she won’t acknowledge it as a problem while having the selfishness to demand lifelong celibacy from her husband. That is cruelty, not love.
I just bridle at the stereoptyped notion that women would “put out more” if men helped with the housework. This is just as sexist as the “women value sex for emotional intimacy.” Yes, of course, women’s short-term interest in sex will go down when taking care of infants, but it strikes me a sign of how sexist our society is that we don’t entertain the possibility that the woman in question might not enjoy the sex being offered. And, again, the high numbers of straight women who rarely if ever orgasm–especially those who rationalize it as “no big deal” if they don’t–are my evidence here.
With full acknowledgment that, yes, of course we don’t know the whole story.
I don’t like being pigeonholed into saying “OH, SEE IT’S HIS FAULT”–that’s not what I said or meant–but I do think an entitled hate-filled man like Professor should pause to consider that women don’t like feeling used sexually, especially if over time that’s the only kind of sex that’s on the table.
I don’t think the “good” straight guys realize how many guys think like that–she “owes” me sex and I couldn’t care less if she enjoys it.
Oh, I should add this. I didn’t get anything from the letter that implied that this man wasn’t sincere or thoughtful or hurting.
Again, my venomous reply was in response to Professor, not the letter writer nor well-intentioned and loving men who are denied sex without explanation from their monogamy-demanding wives.
If the wife is so into the kid, maybe he ought to dress up like a baby, diaper and all, and get some of that attention. Many woman love that!!!!!
In my case, the lack of sex in first marriage was a symptom of many other things wrong, more than half of which I couldn’t fix. I would still be there if sex were the whole problem. How do I know? Second marriage, to someone physically incapable for most of the marriage, lasted till-death-us-do-part. Because I knew she CARED, something missing in the first go-round.
Maddy811: very well said!!!
ariane: see, another highly sexed gal *grin*. And don’t let all these ominous tales of post-partum scare you too much. My libido was ravenous before, AND after. The sleepless nights put a slight damper on it, but it was very brief. Like I said, I really don’t think its a ALL MEN feel this way, and ALL WOMEN feel another way, but instead relates more to an individual’s hormonal make-up. If you decide to have children and you have a strong pre-pregnancy drive, perhaps you will bounce back very quickly; I certainly did!
@47 eff you! The Catholic Church has a horrific record of torture, murder and coercion through the ages, and even in the current day are failing to take responsibility for pedophile rapists in their midst, and take morally reprehensible stands on women’s equality, birth control, gay rights, and more! Running some soup kitchens does not make up for those wrongs.
@35
Fuck if I know. Won’t talk about it, claims to not masturbate, claims to hate toys, and claims to have no fantasies. Even when we (infrequently) have maintenance sex, there’s only one way to do it and any attempts to deviate from that, whether in the moment or before or after the fact (see: won’t talk about it) are shot down.
Isn’t the problem that intercourse is already off the table?
I know what you mean, I have the book, the CDs, and the t-shirt. Worthless when your partner doesn’t think there’s a problem and refuses to talk about your non-problem. I would love nothing more than to spend a whole month making her swoon with only my fingers and tongue.
In my imagination she will. Reality is quite different though.
Dr. Schnarch’s book aside, if things are going to get better you need a willing partner who wants things to get better. When your partner has decided, for whatever reason, that they can’t be honest and open about problems in your relationship, there’s not much you can do about it. That’s why I don’t buy his application of the idea of differentiation to sexual relationships. Sometimes one partner has just checked out. Hell, I’d be happier if she even said, “you know what, I’m just not attracted to you.” At least then there would be some honesty and communication.
I know what PATH is going though, those were the first few years I went through. I had the full time job, she the stay at home mom. I shared in the cooking, the cleaning, the child rearing, the bill paying, the gardening… I trolled the internet for advice (see above: won’t talk about it) and did the things that others said would make things better. I drove the kids to school. I gave her long massages with no expectation of sex (for example, right before I had to leave for work). I stopped initiating to “take the pressure off” since she couldn’t have enjoyed rejecting me any more than I enjoyed the rejection. I tried to focus on other things.
You know what finally worked? Nothing. It didn’t get better, it’s slowly gotten worse. I discovered that when I stopped initiating, telling her that I was up for it but didn’t want to pressure her, months went by. And I understood that if I didn’t initiate it simply wasn’t going to happen. I never realized sex could become so boring, even when you’re having it less than once a month, that I’d think about faking it to just get some rest. Hands and mouths are not allowed near genitals. Nor are gazes, for that matter. And frankly after twenty years of steadily declining sex (quantity and quality) I can’t imagine a future in which it gets better. And I try to stick it out, I really do, for the kids I tell myself, but I hate what the resentment and bitterness has done to me. And I bottled up that resentment and anger but you can’t really suppress all of those painful emotions without also pushing down the joy and enthusiasm. And one day when she asked me where all my joy went it took everything I had within me to not snap.
I don’t think my wife owes me sex. I don’t think anyone owes anyone else sex. But I do think she owes me a clue about what the fuck is going on. And just like I am guessing about why our sexual relationship sucks, I’m also guessing that she doesn’t want to say why because she’s afraid I might leave her. But in not talking about it all she’s accomplished is ensuring that I will leave her. What a fucking mess.
delwalk: A-fuckin-MEN! Go cheat. Again…for all the sanctimonious people, out there waving the oh-so-overused “communication” banner…it takes TWO!!!!!
@124/125- no — talk to a laywer so you understand what divorce looks like financially, figure out how you’re going to make that work, then show her your letter, or, (like badgirl wisely advises), write her a letter tailored to her, not to Savage Love. This isn’t what your life is meant to be.
I know how PATH feels. I’ve been in a sexless marriage for 10 years without straying..yeah you read that right. and every single day of those days i miss the intimacy, the sex, the kissing. Talking/therapy/meds nothing made a difference to my husband lack of desire for me; tho he has loads of affection n caring. (he says it’s his fault but doesnt know why). bottomline: yeah path has a problem..after 2 years it’s not going to go away on its own if at all. And for some of us, having emotional intimacy with one person and physical with another just doesnt sound so appealing. so dan’s advice of going out of marriage may not always work. my advice for path would be go to a sex therapist with his wife.
@108, honestly, it doesn’t matter if we think the wife is “to blame” and the guy is as “perfect” as he says. He’s not happy. He has to take the responsibility for his own happiness, as his wife isn’t doing that. I’m so proud of you for sticking up (with your wife, and here on Slog) for what you want and need out of life. I have to believe that it is going to work out for you, one way or the other.
If your wife, or delwalk’s, or PATH’s, doesn’t like sex and physical affection, and never has, then how is anything we say going to change that? You may have to start over. Please do look for your own happiness. You’re not being selfish if you have waiting years for emotional/physical connection and it ain’t showing up.
@118 maddy811
That’s a very thoughtful comment. Thanks.
Don’t feed the trolls. You’re way above that.
If after PATH writes the letter or has the ultimate discussion and nothing changes, it would seem to be the lesser of two evils to get something discreetly on the side than to toss the kids back and forth between two houses depending on the day of the week. If there is no marriage to save, that is different. But if everything is otherwise good, it would likely benefit the kids to see his smiling face every day than every other weekend.
I never, never understood this… until the husband and I had a child. Then all those friends I used to secretly feel a bit superior to? The ones who were married to basically decent guys and were staying in it for the kids? Wow. I owe every single one of them a major apology. Because while we’ve been close to the edge, and although we’re back at a pretty good place, I realize now just how very, VERY bad a place we’d have to inhabit to justify blowing our daughter’s world apart. Kids change things.
Normally, I need sex to feel happy, and when the PMS hits, it’s just about ALL I want. However, I also went through a suicidal postpartum depression that killed me from the waist down for about a year. Coming out of it was when I realized how much the husband felt the same way; again, he’s one of those uber-decent men who was so damn worried about me he wouldn’t say anything about it. Thank god he finally did. Because I found out a funny thing about my own sexuality: when the mental stuff and the million daily worries are freezing me up, just stripping down, getting in bed and starting to play can almost always get me past the “hump.” Suddenly everything is on again. Just my own glitch, of course, but interesting.
(And thanks, Amanda. That professor guy had me really feeling awful for him. Now I know.)
@128 EricaP
Thank you.
My wife loves sex. She loves it about 10 times a year. Some years quite a bit less. That’s what some people will find unfathomable. That it can be great, but that so little of it is required. And that pressure for more or a request for open marriage would be totally unacceptable.
Badgirl, you crack me up. Yeah, as soon as the damn postpartum depression was treated, the cootch came roaring back to life… sex is the ultimate SSRI.
#131: Bringing it up is truly out of the picture? I’m not questioning your judgment of your own situation, I just wish things could be different for you. Essentially, you’re stuck in a contract that the other party has unilaterally altered, and that is completely unfair.
Hey jenesasquatch, if you’re still checking in, you know we (me, EricaP, others) support you in this, right? Feel free to vent @gmail if you want….
@badgirl, meant to say that, yes, I think you did it right. You told him you needed more sex and that you would go outside the marriage if you had to. He said “no you won’t.” But he doesn’t actually own you, so yes you did. But (from my perspective) you gave him the Big Wake Up Call that could’ve, should’ve worked (and did work in my case). Kuddos to you.
@126
I tried the letter thing. I got as a response, “I guess we should talk.” Every time I suggested we talk, it wasn’t a good time.
She suggested a therapist. I got a list, asked her to help me choose. She didn’t. I chose a therapist and set up an appointment. She missed it (for reasons outside of her control). I setup another appointment. She cancelled. I tried to set up another appointment, she said she didn’t want to go to one where the focus might be on sex. We last left the therapy discussion looking for a therapist who would help us work on our relationship problems with sex off the table. For some reason I didn’t pursue that option.
Gave the kids to the grandparents one weekend so we could have some time and space to talk. After a two hour walk in the woods all I got out of her was, “I don’t know what else you want me to say. I just don’t want to have sex as much as you.” She suggested I get a girlfriend, and when I said that might be a good idea, she said she didn’t really mean it.
You’ll have to forgive me if I’m no longer invested in trying to figure things out. I mean, its been two decades already.
MTV hasn’t broadcast music videos since time memorial (over a decade). You don’t watch MTV, Dan. For shame…gotta stay hip with the kids by turning your baseball cap backward and watching mtv. And if you weren’t gay, you’d fit right in at mtv–but you will anyway, because you’re great. Congrats
@134 Canuck
Yes, of course I know that. Thank you for listening. You make a lot of references to Boston which is very close to where I live. If you’d like to make me feel a whole lot better…
(Ha! I couldn’t help it -that’s what you get for sending me dirty book references)
@133 monkeywithcarkeys
I can bring it up. That’s not an easy subject though. She has trouble discussing sex. The two options are what I’m saying she finds unacceptable.
1) having sex she doesn’t want is virtually like consenting to be assaulted -yes, I think that’s unreasonable
2) she will not consider open marriage -marriage equals monogamous; she feels that she owns my body and has explicitly said so (complete with hand wave over me “I own this”)
Hey, jenesasquatch, I told you, those books are downright ad-dick-tive…har har 🙂
1) It is true that husbands tend to do less housework/childcare than wives do, even when both spouses are working
2) It is legit for wives and other women to complain about # 1.
3) It is not legit to state that a wife/mom with a low libido will start banging her husband again if he starts doing more housework/childcare. Nice try, though.
4) Any husband who is planning on banging someone besides his wife should look carefully into the risks of bringing an STD back home if/when you start banging your wife again. Genital warts stick around. Also, some STD’s can be transmitted via breast milk to your kid (probably does not apply to PATH). Better just jerk off.
5) If a wife loses her libido, she could at least give her man regular handjobs while talking dirty. It’s a bit ironic that so many here are harping on how selfish men can be with regard to sex when it’s also pretty selfish to never get your man off at all just because you are never in the mood. Husbands aren’t always “in the mood” to give wives back rubs.(note: this paragraph does not apply to women married to assholes.)
6) While zero sex is unacceptable for most men, most husbands/dads have to come to terms with the fact that, barring having an “understanding” regarding side action, unless they want to become swinging divorcees with damaged kids, they will be getting less sex. This is part of the reality that when you start a family, you and your needs become less important. Your wife is also de-prioritizing many of her own needs, you’re probably just not realizing this because you’re so busy being bitter about not getting laid and also because you are sleep-deprived.
7) The whole “communicate more” thing is very female-biased, as are most commonly accepted norms of contemporary American middle and upper class relationships. For the most part, this is a good thing-especially with regards to matters of nuance, subtlety and potential confusion. However, it’s pretty messed up for a man to have to “communicate” that he wants more than zero sex. Unless the wife got married as a virgin or is utterly incapable of understanding very basic things about men, she is already aware that PATH wants more sex. She just doesn’t care very much. Whether this is justified depends on facts we don’t have access to.
8) Almost no woman who denies her man sex is doing so simply to torment him.
9) PATH: “I finally lost it and confronted her. I expected that an open dialogue would improve the situation.” I don’t think “losing it and confront[ing]” your wife helps facilitate an “open dialogue.”
A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do (and this includes women too).
Handle your business, but be discreet.
@141: “It’s pretty messed up for a man to have to ‘communicate’ that he wants more than zero sex.”
As someone banging the drum for communication, let me be clear that I’m not talking about a simple “I want more sex,” though I would dispute your assertion that PATH’s wife must know that he does. That is only the opening statement.
Does his wife really know how the lack of sex is affecting him? Does he really know why she isn’t interested? Or how she feels about it? That is what they need to talk about.
And I know that communication isn’t the magic bullet for all cases – some people won’t respond, won’t engage. But it has to be tried.
I’ll make this quick: You exposed your daughter to something she, at 16 and being your daughter, not some girl down the street with no personal stake in this, was completely unequipped to handle due to her age, her emotional involvement with this, the unexpectedness, etc. And then you condemn her for how she handled it. She’s 16 and your daughter for christ’s sake. To have expected her to behave better than many adults do, and perhaps have a “chat” with her FATHER, of all people, about him lying to her and cheating on her mother is just not rational, especially when she found out so unexpectedly and in a fairly traumatic manner.
Now, that aside, someone should talk with her and try to explain that the kind of hurt she feels is how that woman’s kids now feel. She needs to understand that she hurt innocent people. But she certainly doesn’t need to be punished because she had no idea how to handle finding graphic conversations/pictures of the girlfriend she didn’t know her (in her eyes happy) father had.
@144: Psst! I think you are looking for this.
Dan- I’ve asked you before to please NEVER turn a SLLOTD over to Sloggers; 145 posts is *way* too many. So I’ll be 146.
Most women do not know how important sex is to men because they don’t think the same way about it. Many (most?) men do not connect emotionally without their dick involved. For god’s sake ladies- it’s their dick in your pussy that made them love you in the first place. Ask any man if he loves you after he’s just come; 90%+ will say “yes”. Yet women cut their men off, and wonder why their men seem to love them less and less.
While I agree that the woman who works full-time should expect help from her husband, what about the stay-at-home moms who expect dad to do everything after 5:00 when he gets home?! I have a DIL who does just that- whines when he won’t take over for her with the kids after he gets home, and deprives him of sex in the same breath, wondering why “you’re such a perv that you want it more than once a month”. Wait long enough and you’ll be a single mom wondering how did *this* happen?
Keep up the fight, Dan. You’re slowly getting the message out there that sex IS important to an intimate relationship.
38: “And, since you mentioned cheating–it would definitely be a CPOS move to go there without attempting discussion for at least as long as you tried to avoid it. “
So, if he had waited 10 years instead of 2, he’s be on the hook for 10 MORE years of negotiation and waiting for things to get better? Logic fail.
More like he should tell her he has already done all the waiting he intends to do, that she abandoned him sexually 2 years ago, and that things can change NOW. Perhaps she should be the one to spend 2 years dealing with not getting things her own way. Either she will come around sexually, in which case the coming 2 years aren’t actually to her detriment at all, or she will have 2 years of the same sort of hell her husband has been going through leading up to the impending divorce.
@51: read comment #37. And then be embarrassed.
I think the actual fact that PATH and his wife are not having sex is not really the problem, it’s just a symptom of the problem that the two are clearly not communicating with each other. This spells disaster for the marriage. While talking about sex can be difficult for marriages it usually shows that the two people are overall not communicating about many things; not just sex.
If PATH could go 2 years without sex and without talking about a problem (the problem here being the lack of sex but chances are that he doesn’t talk to her about other problems too), chances are there are several things neither side is talking about. Also, if the only way he can talk to his wife about this issue is to “lose it and confront her” there’s a problem not just with them not communicating but also the way in which they’re communicating when they actually do. The fact that he’s surprised that him losing it didn’t make her want to talk about the problem with him is also alarming on several fronts. I mean, if you actually want to figure out what’s wrong, make a plan for talking to your partner about it and open a dialogue; losing it just makes the other person feel chastised and makes the situation worse.
Best bet: get to a marriage counselor pronto. The marriage counselor can work on communication problems and if an actual sex therapist is needed, the counselor can make a good referral.
And, then, the missing paragraph which should have never been removed, because it reveals a lot:
Mr. PATH in his words was committed to being the “perfect husband” to what in my eyes seems to be a Stepford Wife. We only have his word about how much in synch they were. But what if Mrs. PATH merely parrotted “Yes, Dear” to all of his views in order to appear on board and avoid conflict (which may have also been a life lesson conveyed to the children as they are “respectful”).
There are so many details missing. How many children? “Last” would imply three or more. How did sex get reinstalled after the previous births? Was there a significant delay? When they resumed PIV, were they using reliable birth control, or was Mrs. PATH getting knocked up more often than she would have liked and finally decided that enough was enough.
Mrs. PATH sounds isolated, rattling about in that large house dealing with such intellect-enhancing duties such as shopping and laundry (/sarcastic snort). Perhaps when they got married, she thought she’d gotten a good deal, not having to be a part of the rat race. Instead, she’s living in the equivalent of a luxurious isolation chamber or a modern gilded cage (though with the occasional inclusion of a house cleaner or landscaper).
For all we know, Mrs. PATH may have had an awful lot of resentment building up for much longer than two years … but never said anything. So, rejecting Mr. PATH’s advances may have been her desperate and ineffectual way of communicating her feelings.
Mr. PATH prides himself on removing “all of the obstacles he could think of” to make her life easier. But if it was the inclusion of the “obstacles” that Mrs. PATH enjoyed, then all he was doing was further isolating her. We also don’t know if he throws his money-worth around, insisting that since he’s the one who’s earned it he’ll be the one who decides how it should be spent. He could also have the mind-set of, “How could you possibly be unhappy? I gave you everything!”
It appears as if there’s been a communications disconnect for many years on both sides. I believe Mr. PATH would be shocked if he were to ask Mrs. PATH if she’s been honestly happy through their marriage. If the answer is “No” (as I would suspect), then he has to be willing to be open to listen to everything she says. It may be many years of grievances that go on far longer than he’s been without sex. Also, if she’s felt powerless in monetary terms, then sex may have been her only currency left.
Both need to voice unrealistic and unexplained expectations to each other before it is really too late. And they need the buffer of a marriage counselor because right now they’re better at ignoring each other than paying attention.
Can I just say that I spent five years of my marriage avoiding sex with my husband?? There were a lot of reasons for this (kids, for one) but the most important reason was this: if we had sex, then he wanted MORE, not less. It was never enough. I have a decent sex drive (3 times a week is good) but in the face of that kind of pressure, I turned into a once a month kind of girl. Yes, it caused tensions, and yes it made things even more difficult.
BUT — being of the Savage generation, we just kept talking about it ad nauseum. We talked about everything… the failures, why the sex was bad, how badly both of us missed the good sex we used to have… we talked about crushing insecurities and said awful-but-honest things to one another.
AND — one day my husband just figured it out. He tried something new and wonderful and orgasm-inducing And then, after five years of truancy, my sex drive was back. The crushing conversations were not in vain. We know so damned much about each other’s sexual needs now, and now that things are going well, the pressure is completely off and we’re both so grateful.
I guess what I’m saying is… it doesn’t have to be over. Blow this thing wide open and start talking about what exactly is wrong, even if it’s painful to think about.
Once again, Canuck for the win!
I’m simply surprised that Dan chose to highlight our ol’ standby topic once again.
Hey, unregistered posters, sign up!
I am shocked to read that this is how the majority of male and female responders actually feel. I really, sincerely, had no idea. I think that this group must just be part of the population that would be interested in enough in this topic to respond (frustrated husbands/not into it moms).
I’m a woman. If I don’t have sex- cock inside me sex- for any substantial length of time I am miserable. I’m angry, I’m tense, I can’t focus. I’m frustrated and pissed off all the time. I get shaky. It’s hard for me to function in my life. It is NOT only men who feel this way.
I had sex for the first time three weeks after my daughter was born. I would have sooner, but I wanted to be careful and make sure it was ok/that my body could take it. It was amazing, I missed it so much! I had NO problem “making time” (ugh) for sex during any of the time that I was nursing/caring for a baby full time.
After I left my daughter’s father I worked two jobs while putting myself through school and raising a toddler on my own and I still had sex at least once or twice a week. It is not that difficult and it takes almost no time at all. 10 minutes, a half hour. Yes, you do have that kind of time. You do.
If your only job is raising kids, and your husband is the only earner in the house, your life is easy. You are just SPOILED. Please.
If you both work full time/are relatively equal wage earners and you are doing more than your fair share of the housework and child-rearing then knock it the fuck off! That’s bullshit. You need to renegotiate your deal.
For me it’s like food, or sleep. It is not like chocolate cake, as one poster said above. I need it. I can go a certain amount of time, (like Ricardo, 5 days is about it before I start becoming miserable). But beyond that, I feel like dying.
It comforts me to know that so many men feel the same way. I hope that I don’t end up with someone who doesn’t. I am so jealous of the woman who gets to wake up with a hard dick poking her in the butt every day. Really? You’re complaining? You have 24/7 access to sex with someone who loves you and you’re complaining?
I don’t have a sex addiction and I don’t think I’m a freak, or that different. Sex is a biological human need- not want. Need.
Thanks, ladies, for making me feel like a catch. I can’t believe that you don’t “understand” what it means to men… doesn’t it mean that to YOU? No? Man, I just don’t get it.
If you’re not willing to talk about sex, and provide sex, you have no business being in a relationship. Just as if you’re not willing to talk about emotions, or provide emotional intimacy, you have no business being in a relationship. And if you don’t do one, you definitely aren’t entitled to expect the other.
@delwalk: you’ve done your time. Get the fuck out.
When I read a letter that I have a strong immediate reaction to (he’s right; she’s wrong), I reverse the sexes in my head to check myself to see if I’m being sexist or unreasonable. In this case, I imagined that a woman wrote to say that she loved her husband, clicked in every way, but that he hadn’t been willing to have sex with her in 2 years. What would I think?
Answer: He either has a medical problem he’s not willing to talk about; he’s gay, or he’s having an affair. I see no reason those 3 possibilities couldn’t apply to the original poster. If it’s a medical problem, he needs to insist she see a doctor or at least consider if her birth control or antidepressants are affecting her sex drive. She could still be feeling pain from the births and be embarrassed about that for some reason. Any number of possibilities.
She could be lesbian and have a host of feelings associated with that.
The last possibility is one I’m surprised others haven’t mentioned. It seems plausible to me. All this talk about whether it would be O.K. for him to meet his needs on the side. Maybe she is.
All in all, I feel a little sorry for the this guy. Sure he’s clueless, but if he had his act together perfectly, he wouldn’t need advice. He did write to Dan, and Dan used the letter as a spinoff point for another agenda, albeit an important one. He did get around to suggesting better communication, but that’s not Dan’s usual insight. He needs to say something about how the problem could be passive-aggression, or just plain passivity. He needed to bring up the possibility that the sexual element to the marriage was never any good and that she now, with the children, feels safe to drop out of it. Whatever. Give him some directions to think in. THEN bring up the possibility of a marriage saving affair.
Hey, Approaching 40! Yes, there is something familiar about this thread…there’s this odd deja vu 🙂 …just goes to show how prevalent an issue it is if we keep going back to the well, eh?
Wow, so much projection, so much extrapolation, some of it extravagantly so — on so little actual data.
PATH, show your wife this column. Then have her write her version of reality and post it. Then both of you spend some serious time considering what each other has written. Then start talking.
OMG can I ever relate to this. We only go through this life once (that I know of) so why should anyone live in a relationship where there is no passion or intimacy. It makes no sense. I understand that PATH doesn’t want to leave his wife and child – that makes perfect sense. If he walks he leaves not only his best friend but also his kid. That’s a pretty tough decision for anyone to make.
I won’t rant on the pope but I have about 5 hours worth backed up. 🙂
It’s not monogamy if there’s NO SEX. This isn’t an example of the unfair demands of a monogamous relationship, it’s an asexual relationship.
It’s not monogamy if there’s no sex. This article isn’t dealing with the unfair demands or strains of a monogamous relationship, but of an asexual one.
@2: That’s not actully true. The Church permits oral sex during foreplay, but the man must ejaculate in his wife’s vagina, and nowhere else. Oral sex “to completion” is never permitted.
http://www.nds.edu/old/well-Palermo.htm
@28: if by “does a number on,” you mean “seriously ramps up,” then yes, The Pill definitely does a number on a woman’s libido.
But…yeah, if PATH doesn’t learn to talk to his wife calmly and supportively about sex, it will never happen.
As for the “sitter-and-hotel-room” idea someone posted: if PATH or his wife have parents or siblings within driving distance, sending the kids for a “sleepover” works just as well, and is a lot less expensive. I’m pretty sure that’s one of the reasons my bro and I spent so many weekends at Grandma’s.
Oh, I do so love you Dan Savage! May your enlightened vitriol make real change come true!
Any reason in particular this is the guys fault?
Uh, if I’m not mistaken there are a lot of shows on MTV that are not music videos. I see more shows than videos, in fact. Maybe he’s thinking of MTV 2.
So many of these posts are blaming the Husband for the Wifes lack of sexual interests. Unfortunately the Husband gets blamed way to often. Think about this for a moment. Sometimes the Husband is loving,caring, communicative, and supportive, and deserving of a good wife. And sometimes the wife is selfish ,self centered and does not care about the Husbands needs. Believe me it happens. And like Dan says the Husband wil cheat, walk or both.Been there , done that……
This was a great column but Dan should not assume that the old fag in Rome has never tasted a woman or anyone else for that matter.
If your wife is still breastfeeding your youngest, she probably achieves her emotional connection needs through that. The worst thing a “perfect husband” can do is try to drive a wedge because a mother and her child, regardless of whether the child is his or not.
LW, until you are willing to admit that you are not as perfect as you claim and actually get in there and TALK with your wife, you will never know. And you will probably go on deserving these lonely, sexless nights until you can cough up the strength to be there for her emotionally, not just physically. That includes attempts at initiating intercourse as well as housework. Put all that aside and TALK to her, and don’t blame her for anything. It took two people to get to this place.
One of my besties confided in me that she was worried that her parts were no longer the same and therefore worried that the sex would not be as good.
I do hope PATH can take the helpful comments here rather than the projections.
I’m very reminded of what we experienced as a couple, the young kids time is tough and can scar the relationship; and can I humbly offer some suggestions that helped us to manage the situation better – I think we’re in the minority of couples that have actually improved our situation.
a) congratulations on starting the process of changing things by writing the letter to Dan.
b) you need to follow this up consistently, by deciding what you actually want to achieve.
c) enough with the perfect already: I did the sensitive thing by backing off and not asserting properly, while being nice & helpful. Left me feeling devastated and angry.
d) improve your assertion skills, you have to express what you feel and want rather than blowing up.
e) this is not really about communication IMO, that’s a kind of truism or baseline. It’s about fair negotiation based on real understanding of each other. That understanding has to be at a gut blood-wrenching level, intellectual understanding does NOT do it. For example, DW acknowledged sex was important to me, but it didn’t occur to her and wasn’t important to her at that time, so no sex.
f) you have to challenge unhelpful attitudes and beliefs in both of you, that included the inhumane and disgusting “I-only-have-sex-when-I-desire-it” (while I simultaneously expect absolute fidelity from you) meme. Similarly, be prepared to challenge the kids-come-first-second-third BS. Beware self-serving morality.
e) Be on the same team! What she wants needs the same level of attention as what you do, and you need to understand what that is – not the perfect house & garden.
f) none of this may work, if she won’t come to the negotiating table, or make fair compromises based on real understanding of the costs/benefits. That’s why you need to get clear about what you want and what you’re prepared to do to get it.
May I recommend a book – amusingly titled in the circs – about principled negotiation, called “Getting to Yes”.
To quote comment 163:
Oh, I do so love you Dan Savage! May your enlightened vitriol make real change come true!
Dan, you don’t know what pussy tastes like? WTF! Shouldn’t eating pussy be part of the sex advice columnists curriculum along with the rest of the legal sex acts? I mean really, Dan, how can you give advice on sex acts you haven’t experienced yourself? You wouldn’t expect your son to take driving lessons from a blind man, would you? So why should we take sex advice from a man who’s never tasted a nice clean pussy? Give it a try, Dan, you might be hetro after all!
Quoting Jules from Pulp Fiction, Dan’s response would most likely be ” A sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie. I’ll never know cause even if it did, I wouldn’t eat the filthy motherfucker!”
I dated a guy who I lost interest in sex with because he sucked in bed. Even with direction, he just was awful. I dumped him and found another one who knew what he was doing right off the bat. We’ve been married now for 8 years (with two kids) and our sex life is incredible. We started out communicating our desires right away and are both GGG and eager to please. Communication is so important. If you don’t have it and aren’t willing to get the courage to initiate it, you are fucked and it’s your own fault.
My advice for people in this situation:
1) Husband must learn to accept that maybe he is undesirable (has he gained weight? gone bald?)or that he just is incapable of providing sexual pleasure to his wife. And he should change his tune – figure out how to please her.
2) Wife must learn to relax and allow herself to feel pleasure again. And must realize that all it takes to make a happy and nice husband is to keep him fed and fucked. And then her life will be so much better!
I assume that in a lot of these cases, the sex life was never good … it was just OK and the woman tolerated it never really knowing what good sex was. Then she gets to a point where she doesn’t give a shit anymore about his pleasure because she’s never had any. That’s both their faults.
I’ve been Ms. Frosty Box and Ms. Hot Box and I have to say, it all depends on the man I’m with. How he makes me feel and how GGG he is and eager to please.
As soon as I found a man who could truly satisfy me sexually, I married his ass. They are few and far between.
How is 175 different from guys who rate their mate’s worth by how well the mate sucks their cock?
No, seriously, consider it: how is 175 any different? Because I don’t see it.
If that is how you want to be, okay, but just be sure you own it, and don’t pretend that women get to judge a man based on such criteria, while indignantly scolding men who blandly dismiss women for not properly and regularly shellacking pole with enthusiasm.
I’ve seen the lack of monogamy destroy more marriages than not. If you done’t want to be monogamous, then don’t get frigging married!
I’ve seen the lack of monogamy destroy more marriages than not. If you don’t want to be monogamous, then don’t get frigging married!
Thirty years ago, we did a Catholic Engaged Encounter, where several unhappy married couples with no sexual chemistry talked to us about their failed experiences with monogamy (and in the priests’ case, lectured us from his inexperience.) We stayed married because we didn’t listen to others, and allowed our curiosity and adventurousness to guide us, and because our emotional fidelity is to our truth, not some authority’s ideas for us. I’m happy that people of all ages have a chance with ‘Savage U’to investigate their own sexual honesty. Bravo, Dan!
I have never seen MTV do anything BUT non-musical programming. But congratulations anyway, Dan!
@178 Your idea of marriage is very ethnocentric. A good chunk of the world does not practice monogamy in the traditional marriage of their cultures. America doesn’t really do it in practice- it’s an idea that people put on like makeup or costuming for the sake of appearances. Buying into that BS cultural ideal as a cultural fact only sets you up for failure- and your partner.
Bravo Dan. I’ve got to say as a practicing Catholic, to fall behind the religion over and over again as a reason to not be okay with same sex marriage…is well…stupid. I don’t believe that you have to accept the “church’s” way of doing things to be a good Catholic. Remarkably, coming from the beginnings of the Catholic church in this country…you’d be surprised that I’m not alone.
I’m anxiously awaiting your new MTV show. I’m excited for it.
nice job, Dan. Totally agree with you.
I’d be interested in knowing the correlation between men who don’t get much sex from their partners, and men who think women should step up and provide sex even when they never get pleasure from sex.
I’m looking at you, @141 “it’s pretty selfish to never get your man off at all just because you are never in the mood”;
@166 “the Husband gets blamed way too often for the Wife’s lack of sexual interests”; @171 “the inhumane and disgusting ‘I-only-have-sex-when-I-desire-it’ meme”;
@176 “don’t pretend that women get to judge a man based on [how good he is in bed], while indignantly scolding men [who judge women based on their enthusiasm in bed.]”
Unlike 176, I believe that men often marry women who don’t enjoy sex, because they don’t want a slut for a wife. And then (as maddy811 said @57) “BOTH see sex as a wife’s duty.”
Look, if you’re not compatible sexually (or in any other way), find another partner. Or make the sex more appealing to your partner. There is too much bad sex in the world. Pressuring your wives to have sex when they don’t want it – that sucks. In my opinion.
How can guys say that they feel connection through sex, while not caring whether the woman is enjoying herself? Would you feel equally connected to an apple pie that let you fuck it? I don’t understand this feeling of “connection” that arrives even if your partner was enduring the sex instead of enjoying it.
MTV still shows videos? I thought they only air ‘reality’ and countdown shows these days.
@ Ms. Frosty Box and Ms. Hot Box (#175): Dumped the dude ’cause he couldn’t fuck? Bravo! You did both of you a favor.
I had a wife who I could not seem to seriously get off to save my life. I guess I got married thinking “Hey, I can do this. Never had any complaints before. Far from it. I’ll just listen and figure out what she needs.” Towards the end of the marriage I kept hoping she’d go back to her ex for the sake of their kids (too much pride for that to happen) or get a pool boy, because I sure wasn’t doing it for her. She liked to screw so I hope she’s getting her world rocked these days by somebody and not still rolling over after sex to balance her checkbook.
Me, I’ve been in a couple of relationships since then that were/are all GGG so the quality and quantity and the affirmation have all been there lately. I guess the point is that some people don’t match, even if they like sex, and it can be very frustrating being married to someone whose needs and expectations you don’t meet, and vice verse.
One piece of advice from me to PATH, don’t confront your partner about the lack of sex when you are frustrated. My wife and I had a similar problem a few years back, and me getting angry and yelling about it did nothing. But once I could calmly state that sex was important to me, and I wanted to be having it with her she came around and now it’s mostly her that initiates sex.
“I believe that men often marry women who don’t enjoy sex, because they don’t want a slut for a wife. And then (as maddy811 said @57) ‘BOTH see sex as a wife’s duty.'”
While I think this is less prevalent than it was, I totally agree that this happens. And what can be less inspiring that dutiful sex?
I don’t want a partner who lets me fuck her because it’s her wifely duty; I want a partner who demands that I fuck her because she wants my hard cock inside her, and she wants it now. So, I married one. Our sex life has its ups and downs in frequency and in quality, but it is fundamentally sound because we both fundamentally want and enjoy sex with each other.
Why marry someone who doesn’t feel that way about you?
@184 EricaP
I made the mistake of pressuring her early on. That was a few years into the marriage and after the baby was born when the drought began. It never worked and I came to understand that I wouldn’t have found connection in it anyway. It was more about the desperation to have at least some sex.
She has always enjoyed the sex. I won’t say pressured sex never happened but it was extremely rare. Now we have very infrequent, passionate sex. When we finish she always tells me in a very heartfelt way how much she loves me. It radiates off of her. I tell her too. We have connection. I just need so much more of it.
@190 – my comment wasn’t meant for you. You clearly have a good sense of what your wife likes.
And I want to temper my screed with the observation that of course, among adults, we often do things that we don’t love. He rubs my shoulders when I’m sore; I give him a quickie some night when I’d rather sleep.
But if sex is always a drag for one partner (and clearly this isn’t true for your wife, jenesasquatch)… then I don’t see any ethical solution that doesn’t involve openly seeking a new sex partner.
Hey Dan, guess what? It ain’t always about you…
If you want to bag on the douches at MTV, go right ahead.
But just fucking answer PATH’s question. Save the diatribe for later.
@184: “I’d be interested in knowing the correlation between men who don’t get much sex from their partners, and men who think women should step up and provide sex even when they never get pleasure from sex.I’m looking at you, @141 ‘it’s pretty selfish to never get your man off at all just because you are never in the mood'”
Let’s just say that this is an opinion I’ve held whether I was getting laid or not. I can only speculate about the others who have made similar statements here.
By the way, you omitted the part where I wrote: “Husbands aren’t always “in the mood” to give wives back rubs.(note: this paragraph does not apply to women married to assholes.) I should clarify that if a husband is never enthusiastic about giving his wife a back rub, he’s probably not a very good husband. But if sometimes he’s in the mood to do it and sometimes he’s not- but he steps up here and there and gives her the back rub when he is not in the mood, that’s just part of being a good spouse. Just take a moment and imagine a marriage where neither spouse ever did anything for the other that they were not in the mood for. A handjob is no more work than a back rub, and it will make your man feel good (note that I used the words “get your man off at all”).
“I believe that men often marry women who don’t enjoy sex, because they don’t want a slut for a wife.”
OK, let’s assume this is true. What about many men who marry women who do enjoy sex with them, but then those women change and start to not enjoy sex with them? (Let’s assume the husband is still showering, has not gained 100 pounds, and treats his wife fairly well.)
“Look, if you’re not compatible sexually (or in any other way), find another partner.”
What if you don’t want to have sex outside your marriage?
“Or make the sex more appealing to your partner.”
You are writing as if the spouse who has lost their libido has no responsibility in this situation.
“There is too much bad sex in the world. Pressuring your wives to have sex when they don’t want it – that sucks. In my opinion.”
Being a man that never gets off without masturbation … that doesn’t suck? But cheating on your doesn’t suck? or are you assuming that most low-libido wives will give their husbands the green light to fuck someone else?
“How can guys say that they feel connection through sex, while not caring whether the woman is enjoying herself?”
How can a woman not enjoy knowing that she is getting her man off? I’m not talking multiple-orgasm enjoy, just “oh, this isn’t so bad- look how happy is he is” enjoy.
“Would you feel equally connected to an apple pie that let you fuck it?”
No, but we’ll still fuck an apple pie if it’s tight enough. Feel free to mock us for this, we deserve it.
“I don’t understand this feeling of ‘connection’ that arrives even if your partner was enduring the sex instead of enjoying it.”
I think most guys would prefer to have sex with a woman who was also enjoying sex. But if forced to choose between being celibate and having sex with a woman who was just “enduring” the sex, we’ll take the latter. You don’t have to understand this or like it, but it’s true. We are different from you.
Delwalk, I agree with those telling you to walk.
My boyfriend didn’t leave the wife for me, he was already separated, but OMG. He endured 25 years of bad, resentful sex, no blow jobs, no positions besides missionary, blah blah blah.
He’s REALLY happy now 😉
“And must realize that all it takes to make a happy and nice husband is to keep him fed and fucked.”
Yep. We’re all just a bunch of hungry penis brains. Like pets, really. If a man said something even approaching this kind of sexist, lazy-thinking, put every person in one box bullshit, he’d be rightly shouted down. The extent to which most women completely misunderstand men is Fucking pathetic. the above and countless other comments here prove it.
Sex is important. Really important. But I’ve dated a string of self-serving one dimensional bitches who fucked and fed my brains out, and none of them lasted more than a few months. MY wife wouldn’t fucking dare say some stupid shit like I’m reading here, because she knows that real and deep respect for me as an individual (rather than just a stomach and a dick) is the cornerstone of who we are together. And she does her part to sustain that, just like I do mine.
159/160: I’m glad you pointed that out. This letter is not about difficulties dealing with monogamy; it’s about dealing with a complete lack of sex, which is hardly the same thing!
I find it sad that Dan has to repeat the comment about monogamy being an “aberrant” choice, given that it’s made by a tiny minority of sexually active adults. Hey, the same applies to being gay, or lesbian, or bi, or wanting to dress up in a bunny suit. Shall we call those things “aberrant”, then, as if they offer nothing important to inform us about sexuality? I also doubt that it’s such a tiny minority as he says.
A few observations:
1) Yes, it does help our sex life when my husband helps out with housework or kids, simply because I’m less tired and have more free time. How is this surprising or strange? It’s not some emotional game–it’s just simple math! It’s about hours in the day, hours the kids are awake, and amount of physical energy needed. My husband is very good about helping me out, because we both work. I honestly cannot grasp why this is a problem when one spouse (regardless of which sex) stays at home.
2) After my first c-section, it was physically painful for me to have sex for a few months. Eventually that improved, but yeah, there may be reasons why it’s hard to have sex after having babies, not to mention being utterly sleepless and exhausted, or tense with worry that the baby will start crying again when you get things rolling! That said, I wanted to do whatever I could (by hand or by mouth, for example) to assist. Just as I think it would have been grossly unfair for my husband to cheat because of the marked downturn in sex after birth, it would also have been grossly unfair of me to stop all sexual contact or ignore his needs. And hey, I was frustrated too.
3) Cheaters: maybe you think you have morally absolved yourself by “warning” your spouse that cheating might happen. However, it’s one thing to make a generalized threat, and it’s another to actually follow through on it. I think you owe them perfect honesty, and if that means divorce, then that’s the path you’ve chosen. You also owe that honesty to the partner of the person you’re cheating With. You can try to justify this behavior by speculating that their marriage was doomed anyway, or would be worse without your help, but that’s bullshit. You have chosen to be the one to help wreck that marriage. You didn’t have to do that. I.e. your morals are for shit.
Just to put my voice in : I am a lady. After my kid was born, I was as horny as any late pregnancy lady (very), but the doctor forbade any insertion for six weeks so that the stitches could heal. I remember that seeming like an eternity, but we did other sexy things, as the noob usually slept for at least 30 minutes.
My only trepidation about intercourse had to do with the increased size of my body and deflated flabby belly. This made me feel unsexy and nervous.
Looking hot, as I found out, made me feel horny, and looking blubbery made me want to hide under my robe. But I got over it. After six weeks, we put the noob to bed, downed a small bit of wine and, starting with oral, had a wonderful time.
My point: partners should consider the possibility that it is the woman’s perception of her own sexiness is causing her reduction in desire. Even if you are attracted to her, she may not feel like the bombshell she once was. But no point speculating–the best way to find out is to talk and ask and be the kind of nice, approachable noncreepo to which one could tell these things. We talked a lot—before, during, after any issues arose. I recommend the same.
Looking forward to the new show. Dan performs really well in front of the camera and I’m surprised this hasn’t happened sooner. Wonder if it will be available online for those of us not in the States?
@184, answers to your questions since you seem not to understand, or are willfully typecasting the difficult situation real people find themselves in.
a) mismatch can develop over time or be situational. You know, when people have kids, when they were very compatible beforehand. Telling me to go and find another partner is glib, facile and not what I want.
b) “men who think women should step up and provide sex even when they never get pleasure from sex” – who said it was never? Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn’t. What I do expect is fair negotiation and understanding between both of us, not some rubbish inhumane ideology. That stands in the way of good, imaginative negotiation.
If DW never got pleasure from sex, I’d stop having it with her, and seek it elsewhere. You missed an important element what I said: the inhumane and disgusting “I-only-have-sex-when-I-desire-it” (while I simultaneously expect absolute fidelity from you) meme. I’m fine with the attitude that you suit yourself, but I think you’re dishonest to get married with expectations of no-cheating if so, unless the guy is very clear that’s what’s going to happen.
c) pressuring your wives to have sex when they don’t want it – ooh the nasty coercive male to want sex. If you ask for it when it’s been a couple of months that’s pressuring and coercing. BS. Oh, but you absolutely have to be faithful, no cheating.
Can I reflect that I think that failure to negotiate a decent GGG agreement is as destructive to trust as an affair. It’s taken years for me to recover the trust that DW actually thinks my needs are important & is willing to lift a little finger to help me.
But now, there is deep connection and meaning, even if the sex means different things to us both. Sure, I’d prefer mutual simultaneous passion, the moon blue, the orchestra playing. But good-enough sex is great as far as I’m concerned, and I am passionate about meeting the needs she has that give her connection (e.g. talking and walking).
Who says I don’t care whether DW is enjoying herself? Who says I don’t do my best to make it more appealing? What you don’t seem to be aware is that for some, it’s not that important at some times in their lives, and it doesn’t matter how much the guy does the choreplay and does their best to make it fun. It may be nothing to do with the guy. What’s not acceptable is to say, oh, that’s just the way it is, your needs are unimportant.
Thanks so much for the apple pie analogy and dismissing what I want from partnered sex. I’m about as impressed as when I hear dismissive suggestions that masturbation will solve it all.
You do not understand and are touting a boring old ideological line. Stop it. Listen to people that have actually been there and managed to improve their situation.
@191 EricaP
Yes, I noticed that you called out certain other commenters. I wanted to add my limited experience with what you describe. Clearly we agree about how satisfying obligatory or pressured sex is.
As for what to do about it? We also agree that open marriage or divorce seem like the only realistic ways of addressing the problem. Unless of course you are willing or able to endure being unhappy sexually. Then by all means go ahead and live that way. I have so far. I don’t recommend it though.
@200 dameedna
“Can I reflect that I think that failure to negotiate a decent GGG agreement is as destructive to trust as an affair.”
Wow, that’s one I’ll remember. Thanks for putting that so simply. Seriously.
To be fair I don’t think EricaP means to be dismissive of the things you’ve experienced. She has consistently been supportive of me and you describe my circumstance very well: evolution of sex life in the course of marriage, unwillingness of a spouse to be GGG, the male need for sex and connection.
She does say that in order to have sex with a married man she requires him to tell his wife first. That is a divergence from Dan’s philosophy of ethical cheating. That’s a legitimate disagreement. I wouldn’t be dismissive of her for that.
I want to say more but it’s not my place. The Lady certainly can speak for herself.
In all the discussion about the root cause of PATH’s problems, nobody asked whether he refused to do her during her pregnancy. I understand that a lot of guys have an aversion to that, especially during the third trimester — just when a lot of women get really horny — and I suspect that that can cause a lot of resentment. Sure, two years, or however long, is a long time to hold a grudge, but if she felt rejected it takes a long time to get over it. It still goes back to being a communication thing.
To clarify when I said “realistic” @201 I meant just that. Cheating can sometimes be ethical. I just doubt that it’s practical or remotely desirable.
@198 Makes a very good point.
Ashe, Mr. Savage. Ashe, ashe. 🙂
I’m extra happy today DH and I are child-free…almost never too tired for some romping about :O)
I just finished reading this thread. I’d start by communicating better, perhaps with a letter… I don’t think it would hurt to see a physician either.
Recovering from surgery has kept me out of the loop. And, sadly sexless, not for him… I’m, um, creative. Darn, I miss it. All of it… the passionate and the often misaligned by some, because it can appear like a duty, ‘medicinal’ that puts a little sunshine in a crappy stressfull day for the one you love. Hopefully, I’ll get the go ahead when I see the surgeon.
Big hello and virtual hug, to Canuck and EricaP. And, a virtual hug, love, and many wishes for joy are being sent to Jenesasquatch. I’m cheering for you.
kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiim!
Kim, I’ve wondered about you every day. It’s good to see you. And thanks to you as always.
Hey Path – I had the exact same problem 8yrs ago…started out exactly the same (she was 28 & I was 29). it happened right after our son was born. She just would NOT talk. Eventually, my advances annoyed, then pissed her off. I ended up having to BEG for ANY intimacy. That became the turn off that made her leave. However – she had mentally checked out much earlier….turns out, there was an employee of hers fulfilling her emotional needs. She replaced me emotionally and then let me wither away until she physically couldn’t be around me. Now, 8yrs later – she is going thru the same thing, only SHE is being the victim. It’s Karma baby! BTW – I ended up with a younger, prettier, smarter, sexier lady who not only meets all of my needs – she blows me away every day and makes life so amazing. My advice to you – if she doesn’t get her shit together in 60-90 days, file for divorce and MOVE ON.
@193/200 No wife owes her husband a duty of enduring bad sex for the rest of her life. I also don’t believe men have a duty to be celibate.
I believe in lots of talking and communicative touching, to try to get the sex good and hot again.
If that doesn’t work, tell your spouse you are going to get sex somewhere, if not from her/him. Then do that (with condoms, and enough judgment to avoid fucking anyone crazy.) Remember that she may also go out and start fucking someone else; maybe she’ll find someone who does turn her crank. The one who doesn’t like the new, improved, no-nagging sexual situation can be the one to ask for a divorce.
>> Being a man that never gets off without masturbation … that doesn’t suck? … or are you assuming that most low-libido wives will give their husbands the green light to fuck someone else? >>
You don’t need a green light. You just need a good lawyer. Be honest, tell her you’re having sex with someone else, and face the possibility that your wife will leave you. If nothing about the marriage convinces her either to have good sex with you, or to tolerate you going outside the marriage for sex, then face those facts and the end of your marriage.
>>if forced to choose between being celibate and having sex with a woman who was just ‘enduring’ the sex, we’ll take the latter.>>
Those are never the only choices, unless you are actually locked in a prison cell for life with this woman. Remove your blinders.
@200 >>>it doesn’t matter how much the guy does the choreplay >>>
It’s telling that you invent a word like ‘choreplay’ to replace ‘foreplay,’ which is already a problematic word suggesting a hierarchy of sex acts with intercourse at the top.
>>> Thanks so much for the apple pie analogy and dismissing what I want from partnered sex>>>
I don’t dismiss what you want – I just think women shouldn’t put up with bad sex. There’s more to life for both of you.
I would like to just put an idea into the mix here for these men who aren’t getting any. I did this with my own husband about something completely different. But, I will never leave my husband for any reason so I was looking at being that deprived/unhappy for the rest of my life if I couldn’t solve the problem.
This is if your wife will not budge to help you out, you would never leave her and you’re sure you are giving her what she needs from you. This won’t work if the problem is that you are a shitty husband. If you’re neglecting her needs, her response will always be, “Yeah, I know exactly how you feel. Sucks, don’t it?”
I did this with my husband and he said a couple of times, “What about my needs?” I was able to respond, “What needs? Have you ever asked me for something that I haven’t given you? If there’s anything you want that you’re not getting, tell me what it is. We’ll put my shit away for a while while you get what you want and I don’t get what I want. Name it.”
You’re gonna want to be in the position to say that honestly.
My strategy was:
Never let her forget that you are miserable. If she won’t help you be happy in your marriage, she sure as hell doesn’t get to pretend like you’re happy in your marriage.
“Why don’t you give a fuck that I’m unhappy?” is the issue. Don’t even discuss the sex until you get her to agree that you feeling sex deprived is making you miserable and she should care about that.
Don’t pressure her for sex. Don’t nag or pressure her to choose any one solution. Do NOT nag her to do a thing, whatever thing you may prefer she do. Your preference may be an open marriage or that she fuck you more or whatever. Keep your mouth shut about that.
Remind yourself at all times that what you are really asking her for is to be your partner. And just ask her for that.
Remind her often that you are deprived of sex, it is making you miserable, she doesn’t seem to give a fuck and that hurts most of all.
I think this “I don’t want to pressure her,” instinct is both the best and worst course of action. If you pressure her to do something she really doesn’t want to do, you will push her away.
But I don’t think it’s a good idea to just drop it. You should demand that she recognize that you are unhappy and that, as your wife, she’s supposed to give a fuck about that.
You totally owe to yourself to pressure her for that. Refuse to let her pretend she isn’t ignoring your pain.
I hope I’ve made the distinction clear. It’s clear in my head but I’m finding it hard to explain. I keep adding more words and repeating myself which probably doesn’t help.
@213 EricaP, I appreciate your observations and questions, but not when they’re loaded with assumptions and jangling my anti-ideology bells. Forgive me if I’m overly sensitive on that score or making assumptions myself – but I don’t want others to suffer unnecessarily because of those attitudes.
I didn’t invent “choreplay” nor do I think it’s a very good attitude to loving mutual sex; that’s one of the many “if-onlies” that people use to say why the woman doesn’t want sex, because the guy isn’t contributing or helping. Of course, you should both help each other – but for sure you can get situations where the guy is contributing but she isn’t.
Quite agree that a heirarchy which insists that intercourse is the ultimate expression of sex can be unhelpful, and just to be clear, that’s not what I ask for. DW can choose the form of expression that works for her at the time. What is not acceptable to me is that there is no or minimal expression. And absolutely I’m commited to doing the things that she wants – and I don’t come out with stupid notions like I don’t have to talk with you because my tongue’s my own, no-one owes you conversation.
I made it very clear that I wouldn’t continue with sex with DW if it were bad for her. What you can’t have (and yet there are women who expect it – DW used to be one) – is an attitude that “no-one owes you sex” (translated means I suit myself, you can go hang), and at the same time insist that fidelity is required, there’s no reason to complain because all you have to do is masturbate; your only other way out is divorce and quite unfair access and custody arrangements. No wonder people cheat – and the sanctimonious self-serving moral indignation in those circumstances makes me sick.
We have managed – by sometimes painful & difficult understanding, hard negotiation, and real compromise – achieved a situation where we are both pretty happy and getting what we want. That’s a fantastic achievement IMO. And it’s not a burden or “bad” because she now understands better, and can connect her experience with things of value to her – which don’t have to equal sexual pleasure and desire for her. That sometimes happens, sometimes not.
One things for sure, had she carried on with her unhelpful ideologically-based attitudes and being “right”, we’d no longer be married, and that would have been a big shame for our kids. Perhaps you can understand why I’m not tolerant about ideology and lack of understanding of a difficult situation for both parties. Flexibility and accepting good-enough is key.
@214 Useful thoughts – apart from getting clear what I wanted and what I was prepared to do to get it (more or less anything) – I decided that what I wanted from marriage was that “we help each other get what we want, with high priority”.
That applies whatever the “want” is, no exceptions, and means that I have to understand what she wants, in her terms, and deliver. No matter that I don’t feel it myself, or would prefer something different. But emphatically, sex is part of that equation for me, attempts to write it out of the negotiation or expect unilateral fiats is a show-stopper.
I think you’re right about the persistence required and the issues if you let it go, perhaps because you’re sensitive to your partner’s feelings that they don’t want it. You have to keep it on the table, so they know you’re serious and it’s not going away. And if you can take the attitude that it’s your job to help them understand, that makes for a better and more cooperative mindset for principled negotiation.
I have no idea what station Dan’s show will be on. The only MTV I know stopped showing music videos decades ago.
195, you, sir, are the fucking king.
No, really. King.
/awe
197: “maybe you think you have morally absolved yourself by “warning” your spouse that cheating might happen. However, it’s one thing to make a generalized threat, and it’s another to actually follow through on it. I think you owe them perfect honesty, and if that means divorce, then that’s the path you’ve chosen.”
Don’t listen, men and women denied sex. If there are no kids, dump the sex-denying spouse. If kids, you have the discrete cheat option available after a sincere attempt to work with the sex denier. Your right to be with your kids trumps the right to perfect honest of a potentially angry, sex-denying ex-spouse.
@214 -You said it very well. If one spouse is in pain, the other spouse has to listen honestly and try to find a workable solution. Or else there is no marriage there.
@215- Good for you for finding a solution that works for both of you. But your analogy to talking is valid. If talking was unbearable, if your spouse always made it a competition and twisted your words so you felt like an idiot, then, yes, people can refuse to participate. Why does divorce seems so unthinkable to you, for marriages that are mismatched sexually or in other ways?
If Dan doesn’t already have a PhD in human evolutionary biology, I think he should get an honorary one! This is one of his very best columns, in my opinion, and his responses are generally very good.
If I didn’t hate cable TV so much, I’d sign up for the premium packages that are required to get MTV as an option. Oh well… I don’t get Gallagher thing’s newsfeed either…and I would never want to!
@218 – if you never, ever have sex with your wife, then, yes, a warning is enough, and she doesn’t need the details.
But if you still sometimes have sex with your spouse, then you owe her complete honesty about the risks you are running. Be a decent human, marry a decent human, and don’t fear divorce. Pragmatically, won’t being honest (and active in your kids’ lives) lead to a better divorce settlement than being a liar & cheater always sneaking off with your secret lover?
@200/215 -my apologies. Just googled choreplay, and learned it’s a trendy term for helping out with chores around the house. I thought it referred to the annoyance of having to include some minimal level of caressing before inserting your penis. Again, my apologies for misunderstanding.
BRAVO, Dan. BRAFUCKINVO. So many quotes in this article to live by. So much sound advice. Good luck in your MTV endeavor, you have a lot of minds to expand on these issues!
Hello Kim!! Hope you’re managing through those challenging days after surgery, no fun at all. I also hope you get the best of news soon. Keeping you in my thoughts, and hugs right back!
@196: re: “aberrant” — irony detector needs new batteries, I see. 🙂
(fwiw, I went the same place first time I read it, too.)
Okay y’all, see this is where i always feel like i’m the weirdo. my first marriage ended, in part, because my husband was withholding sex from me. i am a woman and i see sex as being very necessary for every part of a marriage and every part of life! spouses who are fighting should still fuck, tired should still fuck, sometimes even ill or injured should still fuck. i realize people are not machines, but sex is a basic human right. i know many women who feel this way also.
@226 Sex is not a basic human right. It’s a basic human desire, but not a right that others have an obligation to satisfy.
Regarding “choreplay:”
So, you are too tired for sex because you have too damned much to do around the house first. Has it occurred to you that you have made sex with your spouse less significant to you — that is to say, a lower priority, and apparently less appealing — than a sinkful of dirty dishes?
The loved ones in your lives would really like to believe that they are at least slightly more appealing to you than a dirty dish. Sex is supposed to be its own reward. I can’t imagine anybody forgoing a night on the town with flowers, champagne and dancing, in favor of getting that last load of laundry in the machine first. No, you would drop everything in order to get out the door on time, go have a great time, and then come back and get that last load in the machine before dropping off to bed. Probably both of you would do it together, because you are now feeling connected after a night of shared enjoyment.
Take care of your partner’s needs first, and you will have a lot better chance at enlisting their help with the chores. That, and when there is simply too much to do, be a little smarter about what you neglect. The laundry won’t eventually cheat or file for divorce because you neglected it.
@227: No, indeed you have no “obligation” to satisfy your partner’s sexual needs. However, you have a very, very strong “incentive” to do so, if you want to keep him.
@228 avast2006
If a social worker came into your home, which would you rather they find: a sink full of dishes and a dirty floor or the absence of a just-fucked grin on your face?
My type-A wife is exhausted from school and work. To her there isn’t a choice about priorities. Her time is filled with direct and indirect career responsibilities -things that have to be done on a frequently unreasonable timeline that she has no control over.
A year from now when school is done she is going to need to decide what the future holds. Is it going to be sex twice a week or some new demand on her time. If the sex isn’t forthcoming then I will wait another 8 years or so until I think my son is ready and then that’s it for me.
@229 if I didn’t enjoy sex with him, I wouldn’t want to keep him. (In our case, we’re open and we acknowledge that we don’t control the future, so I don’t think of myself as “keeping” him.)
@230 – nine more years of this?? I don’t understand why you aren’t already openly looking for a new sex partner. Your son will deal. He would deal if you got hit by a truck; he’ll deal if you go find your bliss. Your wife says she owns your sexuality, but that’s not true. Go find your bliss!
(Kim @209, here’s to creativity – hope at least some of those activities are fun for you too 🙂
@28:
You know what would really work? YOU doing the dishes, instead of just having the tired wife leave them there to do later just so you can fuck her. Unfortunately the dishes aren’t going to do themselves. They have to get done sometime. Helping out really goes a long way in saying that you actually care for her and not just think of her as a spooge bucket.
I was another wife who was bone tired with two little kids. The spouse was also bone tired since he helped a lot with the kids and house.
We both has full time jobs.
We had sex, but definitely not at the frequency we did pre-kid. If he hadn’t helped me with the kids and house work, the sex would have been a LOT less frequent than it was because I would have been way too tired. Also, his helping showed me how much he cared, which made me want him all the more.
Then, the kids got older, more independent. We got more sleep and the sex frequency went up.
Waaaay up.
From talking with a lot of my friends, this is a pretty common trend. We’re all older, all have kids that are grown or almost grown, and the sex has gotten way way way better!
Hi Canuck! Hi jenesasquatch! Hi Sloggers!
Thank you. I’m a bit giddy at the moment, surgeon called-no cancer and hopefully I don’t have to have the next surgery! Plus, all this stay still time as been a lovely gift, music wise. There is little more that I could want at the moment, but permission to have sex, permission to resume dancing the tango (seriously), and a nice two finger dram of whisky. All will have to wait for the time, but not for much longer.
@ jenesasquatch, between your comment on SLLOTD the other day and this thread, you are making my heart ache. I hope that she knows how miserable the lack of sexual intimacy leaves you. Perhaps, she doesn’t really get it, but within all her type-A delights and intellect there must be the capacity to understand it. She sounds amazing in so many ways and it is obvious that you love her dearly. A year from now seems a long time to wait for that discussion. You’re her life partner, father of her son, champion, and cheerleader. You’re too damn precious to loose and to be taken for granted. And, I understand, if you don’t feel that you’re being taken for granted in the sexual intimacy department, but it seems very possible to me. Then, my sensibilities tend to follow a very tenderhearted path. In my own way, I’m a bit of a Marianne Dashwood. And, my childhood as left me with a heart attuned to pain, and rather fierce desire to sooth, encourage, and affirm. I want you two to make it.
Take care of yourself, please.
KIM! KIM! KIM!!!!!! Woot!!!!! Congratulations, babe!!!!!
Best news in the whole world!!! I know you’ll celebrate in style as soon as you can 😉
Oh jenesasquatch, what Kim said, too sad to think another 8 years of longing. I wish there were a magic way to have a gentle intervention, you know, some girlfriends who could lay things on the line for her, in a kind way, of course. None of our business, obviously, but have you ever done that? Said the D word? When school is over, and she has some reevaluating to do, it may be better in the long run for you to have a painfully honest conversation with her. I’ve had a few of those with my husband, where you’re really not sure if you’re going to make it, and it has turned out to always make things better, because you just don’t take the relationship for granted then. Something to think on, anyway.
Thanks for letting us know the good news, Kim!!!!!
I would say that if PATH has no physical contact with his wife except when he’s initiating sex, then there’s another very frustrated side to this story. Also “lost it and confronted her” doesn’t equal “open dialogue” where I come from PATH. Get some counselling.
Ta for that EricaP and Canuck. The words “you don’t have cancer” are indeed beautiful to hear.
And, I’ll second the importance of having those “I’m not sure we’re going to make it, and here is why…”
My conversation started like this: “You have unilaterally decided to change our arrangement. How do we survive this? What do you think our future looks like?”
In my case, he had gone outside the marriage for sex. But the same opening works if a spouse radically reduces the sex or stops giving blow jobs or whatever. I wasn’t threatening to leave, but I just couldn’t imagine what came next, after the tears.
EricaP, Kim, jenesasquatch, I think what it boils down to is valuing yourself enough, and your partner valuing themselves enough, that neither tolerate poor behaviour, or poor treatment. In my case, it may be male mid-life issues that possibly become deal-breakers, and I think it helps for them to hear that before it’s too late. For them, it may be not enough sex/mediocre quality of sex, and we need to hear that before it’s too late. No relationship should tolerate walking on eggshells, in my opinion.
And what happens when the newly non-monogamous Path family gets pregnant outside of the marriage?
Kim, I’m so happy to hear your news!
My doctors were 99% sure before I went in for surgery that mine was cancerous, so it wasn’t a complete surprise. What they didn’t know beforehand was what stage and how serious it was. Waiting 10 days for the test results was the hard part for me too, so I completely understood your trepidation.
Here’s hoping you will soon be back to loving, dancing and drinking. Cheers! Take good care.
@240 with 2 types of birth control and a woman old enough to understand her body’s rhythms, that’s extremely unlikely. Herpes/HPV are much more likely. But in any event, the adults involved discuss what to do with the crap life hands them. Crap happens if you don’t have extra-marital sex too.
@242, So sorry, hope the results were as good as possible…
@232: Reading comprehension fail. Where did I say leave them for the wife to do later?
First, you aren’t going to be too tired for sex because you had to do the dishes first, if you didn’t actually DO the dishes. Second, you aren’t going to be too tired for sex if you put the sex first, before you get so fucking tired from everything else. Third, if the sex is any good, you probably will be energized and ready for what comes next. Finally, and most importantly, at the end of the day, when you are too tired to do the dishes, hubby is going to feel a whole lot happier about making a habit of doing them for you because he feels connected, valued, and desired by you, than he will to do them in hopes of just maybe you won’t be too tired tonight to dispense a sexual favor — sex that you apparently regard as just one more thing to tire you out. How romantic.
Some people — some women, even — view sex as one component of falling and staying in love. Some people regard sex as a natural outgrowth of love and desire for their partner, and wanting to be loved and desired in return. Jesus, if “spooge bucket” is how you regard sex with your spouse, maybe you shouldn’t be married.
What do you want out of life? Is that tempered by your limitations? How serious are they? What has your life been so far? What have you endured? Does that put your present difficulty into a different context than other what others will relate to?
To suggest that I go somewhere else than I am now then you should know who I am. If you are easily upset don’t read on.
Here is a medium bad thing that happened to me. If I told you something bad you would run out in the street and start screaming. I’ve already mentioned this elsewhere on slog so I don’t mind mentioning it again. When I was a child my mother thought a reasonable punishment would be to burn me and then have me watch while she did my little brother. Guess which one of those is worse?
Growing up I was subjected to continuous psychological abuse designed by my older brother to turn me into a self-loathing piece of shit. Job well done.
My first experience with being touched in a sexual way was being molested at age 13 by a person of trust in my life.
I have bipolar disorder which you can treat to some extent but not cure. I have lived with suicidal thoughts my whole life. I am 47. In a particularly bad episode of hypomania I became obsessed with another woman and I spent weeks extolling her virtues to my wife. I will never stop wanting to cut my own tongue out. My wife stayed. All of her friends had told her to leave.
I reached the end of the line with the sexual mismatch and told her that I needed to try finding other women to sleep with as well as other men. She agreed. For a month. She tried but she just couldn’t stand it. I never found anyone. And then she said that if I had slept with anyone during that time she wouldn’t have stayed. And then I lied. I said that well really I’m straight and I don’t really want any other woman so okay let’s call off the open marriage. Because I love her and I can’t stand the thought of hurting her anymore. And who am I gonna get? If the answer to that is no one then why not lie? Isn’t it better for her? I don’t actually want anyone else. I want more of HER.
I once climbed 6000 ft up a mountain in a 110 mph wind at 80 degrees below zero. It’s a bit like getting run over by car twice a minute for 4 hours. But in the grand scheme of things I found that hard to take seriously. I mean, is that all?
9 years means nothing to me. Not when I have nowhere to go except away from the wife and son I love more than my own life. Not when the life behind me looks the way it does. What do you think I’m capable of? I’m a crazy, middle-aged, 6 ft tall, 128 lb., unemployable, bisexual man. Exactly how many lies am I to tell in my okcupid profile to trick someone into dating me?
I don’t want to end up like Marianne Dashwood lamenting what my conduct should have been. I am torn about what to do. At least I’m not a piece of shit anymore. EricaP did that. And there are all you amazing women here, so so many of you. So amazing to me. Love runs loose in the world in the person of kim in portland. Right I’m losing it now. I’ll come back another time.
Oh God, jenesasquatch, I am so, so sorry for your pain, and for what you’ve gone through. You may feel like you have too many liabilities to be appealing to someone else (not that you want to be–it’s clear you just want your wife) but to us here on this blog, the ones who’ve connected with you, you are beautiful and caring. Your character is what matters, and you have demonstrated time and again that it is generous and loving. Lots of people have medical issues they deal with, or bodies that are different from what they want, and unemployable? Well, you’re doing exactly what I did for 20 years, I stayed home with three kids. It’s important work, and your son is the lovely young man you’ve described because of your influence.
Your wife needs to understand that your needs are as important and as worthy as hers. If the women of this thread could sit down with her and talk to her, we would. But since we can’t, at some point, you need to explain how much this is affecting you. If I could appear there and give you a big hug, I would. Sweet dreams.
Oh, wow. Your mother isn’t there now to hurt you, or the ones you love, jenesasquatch. Don’t keep hurting yourself in her place. You’re scared of hurting your wife (because watching your brother hurt was worse than hurting yourself). But you can’t be so fearful of hurting her, that you keep torturing yourself.
Please, please. Stop telling her different stories about yourself. You are figuring out what is true about yourself; stick to the truth. Tell her what you have lied about, apologize for that, and then be true to yourself. She may not be able to be the person you want her to be. Not everyone gets what they need in life. But your only chance at having her really be your partner, your companion in life, is to have her look in your eyes, recognize your truth, and acknowledge it.
At least in my marriage, sharing the truth has been so much more important (for both of us), than figuring out what to do about sex.
I don’t like my last line. The truth is not separate from the sex; our sex is very connected with the truth of our selves, and much more so now than it was when we were in our baby drought. Our sex is complicated and messy, and still, always, a compromise, even though we’re basically on the same page — but those painfully honest conversations that Canuck mentions… they’re crucial.
jenesasquatch,
I’m so sorry, love. Read some old posts of mine just in the last week or so and you’ll see that my childhood was not unlike your’s. Again, I’m sorry. I’m sending you so much love. Take a deep breath, beautiful one. Sweet dreams.
I’ll check back tomorrow.
@147, what you’re describing isn’t, in my book, cheating. It’s being upfront and honest about a change in your own ability/intention to be faithful, which I think is fine although PATH wants to save his marriage so it’s probably bad advice for him to start his first upfront, honest conversation with “You’d better do me before someone else does.”
But her indifference to sex isn’t a green light to cheat (behind her back) if he hasn’t been clear and respectful about his own needs. Making his sexual needs a guessing game for his wife is a BS manipulative game he tried to play with his wife and he lost. His wife didn’t put him through that. He put himself (and her) through that. And he was willing to do that BS for 2 years. Why shouldn’t he be willing, for the sake of his marriage, to try it the right way for as long? (And yes, 10 years is too long, but 2 years isn’t–most arguments don’t work at their logical extremes.) And BTW, those 2 years of open, respectful conversations very well might include opening up the marriage. I in no way meant he owed her fidelity. He just owes her respectful honesty.
Despicable Me,
I’m so sorry. I hope your health has improved.
My life is a bit like PATH’s. What folks don’t realize is that there’s just not much that can be done. My wife is not interested in sex. She knows I am, because I’ve told her, and she tries to help out, but has no idea how far short a few minutes on top once a week is. I’ve tried to explain, but she gets defensive, and feels pressured, and that only makes it worse. Our outlooks on this issue are different, but also things changed after we had children. And no, it’s not about her doing all the housework, and me sitting on my ass. It’s not like that at all. I do all the shopping, ironing, laundry, cooking, cleaning, bathing, wiping, taking to class, etc. one could imagine. So does my wife. We are tired, and we don’t have much fun, or even time to try to have fun, but we could have sex, and have fun having it, and we don’t, and it is a problem that grows with the months. The problem is both partners need something for themselves. I’ve not had a meal made for me in years. I’ve not had a blowjob in years. The hope that something nice will come your way goes away. If there came into my life someone with whom I could have fun (and sex), I’d probably go with it, though I do love my wife, and enjoy being with her. Not everything can be just how one wants, and one puts up with some things one doesn’t like to have the things one does. It’s better to have a companion who has no interest in sex, than to have a great fuck who has no interest in you.
These things aren’t so simple as some folks like to wish. Perhaps it pays to be a bit selfish.
Well, these people are right – being exhausted is a huge libido-killer, and it does tend to happen more often to a new mother.
After my girlfriend had her first child, she spent 6 months exhausted, sleepless, overworked, the usual. But…. after a few months of limited romance… hubby shuffled his priorities a bit and decided to cancel the cable subscription & cut back on dining out, hired a part-time housekeeper and nanny so that my girlfriend could relax by herself regularly. And within a few weeks… she was suddenly much hornier. Bravo, sir. (Well, to be fair, he also picked up some new cologne and tried generally to make himself sexier. I wonder if this husband thought of that?) Anyway if it’s a choice between cable and an active sex life, I know what I’d choose.
jenesasquatch: …there are no words. truly horrifying. I’m sorry.
kim in portland: fantastic news about the surgery. sorry to hear about your childhood, though.
… Good lord, people. Basic logic, please. Everyone responds to incentives, which means that trying to fix a drought in the relationship by doing a larger-than-you-usually-do share of the household chores is a bad, bad, bad plan. It sets up the dynamic that the less sex you have as a couple, the nicer you treat her, which is obviously Not Going To End Well. Not for you, not for her, not for the relationship.
The opposite solution (Do less chores the less she fucks you) is equally obviously a very rapid path to “end of relationship” the first time sex tapers off at all.
Basically, mixing together chores and your sex life is deeply stupid. Set up an equitable division of labour early on, in writing if need be, and stick to it like it is the word of god.
If you feel like being a bit manipulative, then (and never, ever say, nor even hint, that this is what you are doing) then do some minor thing above and beyond the call of duty around the house consistently the day after sex. Buy a new houseplant, decal the walls in the nursery, extra effort into cooking, and candles. But it /has/ to be something outside the cathegory of basic household maintainance. The idea is to create positive associations, not to pile on the negatives on top whenever she is not getting any.
@253: Nice, if you can afford the nanny. Good choice about cancelling the cable, etc., to make the financial ends meet with the new priorities. In any case,. I agree with you totally about shifting priorities, whether or not that involves finances.
Take the situation described by 232: BOTH people had full-time work outside the home, BOTH people helped out a lot with the housework, and BOTH people apparently put sex last on the priority list, with the result that sex happened pretty seldom for a while. I sure hope that BOTH people wanted it that way, otherwise ONE of them was unhappy with the situation, in which case as a system it was a failure.
It sounds like 232’s love language is “acts of service,” judging by “his helping showed me how much he cared, which made me want him all the more.” So, she wanted him all the more…but still, both of them were generally too tired to have sex. Fat lot of good that does. If his love language was also “acts of service,” great: the two of them could be mutually happy and exhausted together. However, if his love language was “physical intimacy,” then her love language needs were being fulfilled daily, while his were only being met randomly if at all. Very unequal, very unfair, very “fail.”
If they make sure to be intimate early, when they aren’t tired yet, and that shows him how much she cares about him, and he helps her out constantly as a result, then BOTH are having their love language needs met.
Sure, there are periods where it just isn’t workable, even if you do put sex and intimacy at first priority. Even when you aim for regular quickies in the morning while you are still fresh, if the baby kept you up all night “fresh” is already off the table. But it will still happen far more often, and with a far better happiness quotient, than if you put intimacy off until dead last.
… Good lord, people. Basic logic, please. Everyone responds to incentives, which means that trying to fix a drought in the relationship by doing a larger-than-you-usually-do share of the household chores is a bad, bad, bad plan. It sets up the dynamic that the less sex you have as a couple, the nicer you treat her, which is obviously Not Going To End Well. Not for you, not for her, not for the relationship.
The opposite solution (Do less chores the less she fucks you) is equally obviously a very rapid path to “end of relationship” the first time sex tapers off at all.
Basically, mixing together chores and your sex life is deeply stupid. Set up an equitable division of labour early on, in writing if need be, and stick to it like it is the word of god.
If you feel like being manipulative, then do some minor thing above and beyond the call of duty around the house consistently the day after sex. Buy a new houseplant, decal the walls in the nursery, extra effort into cooking, and candles. But it has to be something outside the category of basic household maintainance. The idea is to create positive associations, not to pile on the negatives on top whenever she is not getting any.
Which, it is important to remember, is already a negative for her.
Thank you all for listening. TMI as always. Your support means more to me than I can adequately express. My love to you.
@247 EricaP
Wow, you really “get” me.
I already have told her that I’m bi. It was a short conversation. All she said was “Oh, I thought you said you were straight.” Having her look me in the eye and embrace everything about me is a long-term project.
Thanks again for giving a damn Canuck, kim, EricaP, avast2006, and so many others.
@78 “Any girl or woman over the age of 12 knows what a big deal sex is to men.”
Actually you know wha? You’re pretty much right. That conclusion is inescapable, pounded into our heads from even earlier than that, over and over and OVER.
I’ll let you in on a little secret, though. That attitude is called entitlement (look it up). It’s actually a pretty ugly attitude, and is a huge turn off for many. I as in that situation and trust me, I *understood* that. I was *also* mad as hell that it wasn’t about how *I* felt but what I was “keeping” from him.
No one likes to feel they are reduced to a convenient hole (and if that infuriates you, go back and reread the definition for entitlement again).
In general you have to talk, you have to keep the lines of communication open. And complete failure to touch the subject (I just love how people always believe another knows what they are thing; my observation is that this is far from the truth esp among married couples) is as bad as “If you loved me you’d have sex with me even if you don’t feel like it (bitch).”
Don’t assume that just because someone “knows” something about you, that they will do something about it. It may in fact be (even a part of) WHAT they are mad about in the first place.
Let me clarify one bit of phrasing (I have a tendency to hit the big shiny green post button when I want the drab gray edit one).
I was mad as hell that *my* feelings weren’t being considered as well; it was all about what I was “keeping” from from him.
And discussions that amounted to figuring out what button to push to dispense the sex instead of looking at how I felt really didn’t help. (I don’t mean button pushing as in the colloquial term, I mean more literally, as if I were a vending machine.)
BEG, jebesasquatch can answer for himself, obviously, but this conversation was also carried over from another thread, and I think you’re picking up on the anger here that hasn’t been in other comments. He’s a really great guy, stay-home dad, dinner on the table when his wife gets home, and although he loves her dearly, she has radically changed the sex landscape from what was mutually great for both of them to hardly ever. She won’t have sex if she doesn’t feel like it (which is most of the time, as in months) and he won’t pressure her. But, and this is what we’ve been discussing, at what point in a marriage to you get to say your needs are as important as their needs? He’s the opposite of pressuring. If he vents, it’s here, and not to her. We’ve been (nosy nancys that we are) encouraging him to let her know how deeply her continued rejections are affecting him.
Just wanted to let you know that. He may seem a bit growly in the comment you cited, but he’s a sweetheart.
230: “If a social worker came into your home, which would you rather they find: a sink full of dishes and a dirty floor or the absence of a just-fucked grin on your face?”
Apparently I haven’t made it clear that I’m talking about rearranging priorities in a way that makes room for all of them. I don’t know about the rest of you, but for me, while vacuuming might make me too tired for sex, the reverse definitely isn’t true. Quite the opposite: a romp in the morning is a wonderful way to start the day, and we are both going to be more cheerful, more productive, feel more connected, and be more helpful to each other as a result.
My wife is of the same opinion, having arrived here by working our way through the stereotypical dry spell that kids tend to create. Frankly, it would have been nice for us to figure this out 10 years earlier.
I’m really sorry to hear of your wife’s apparent lack of interest. My opinion is that if she can’t be bothered to pay attention to you, she has no call to be anything but pleased if you get your needs met elsewhere. She’s off the hook for something she doesn’t want, and you are happier because you aren’t being deprived of fundamental intimacy, which should, if anything, improve your home environment. If she honestly has no interest in your sexuality, then what she doesn’t know about it won’t hurt her. (Standard disclaimers about safe sex and not bringing home a disease, though pragmatically speaking, you can’t infect your wife with an STD if you have no sexual contact with her, so that warning is for your benefit, not hers.)
I know you say that you don’t want anyone else, what you want is more of her. You are also implying that once the child is grown, you will leave. That strikes me as 9 years of not getting what you want from her, followed by losing her. Meeting your intimacy needs discreetly elsewhere might actually preserve your marriage, which under current terms appears to otherwise be doomed.
@260,261 BEG
I was having a really bad few days there and approximately the first 50 comments of this thread just set me off. That was my exasperation with what I saw as the willful failure to recognize a basic truth about people. As in, “how can you claim to not know…have you been living under a rock…” I would absolutely never translate a person’s desires into an obligation on another. I don’t have a sense of entitlement.
I apologize to you. I am sorry. I do understand that it is difficult for people to understand each other and that they shouldn’t be assumed to be heartless when they fail to do so.
@262 Canuck
Oh Nancy. Where would I be without you?
@264 avast2006
You’ve made yourself clear. I agree with you. However, there is a way to arrange your life into one long crisis so that, truly, you can’t just make time for sex.
The thing about people whose whole conception of marriage depends on monogamy is that you don’t fuck someone else. That they don’t fuck you is irrelevant. You are making a rational argument against an irrational point of view. The unreasonable person must decide for themself to open their mind.
jenesasquatch@266
Hah! (I also respond to Bossypants, just like Tina fey… 🙂
Kim, EricaP, et al, it’s all good. It’s been 3 years this week and I’m doing great! Kim’s comment just reminded me of what we go through emotionally leading up to the diagnosis. xox
Good morning, jenesasquatch.
I’m glad to ‘see’ you. (For what it is worth, I wish SLOG had a chat feature, I’d rather say this all just to you, but maybe someone else needs to read this. One never knows…) I hope this means that your chin is up and your ‘spirit’ is more at rest. If you feel either lagging, just imagine very calloused fingers (blues guitar and bass player)lifting that chin from someone who understands too well that there are monsters in the world and that fear of rejection can haunt a person. Down deep you know,and I know, that we aren’t responsible, never “earned”, what was done to us. Just as we know that it doesn’t limit our lives unless we give it permission to. Abuse is just part of the great story of our life, that must be lived from the truth of who we are with conviction and honesty. You have won, I’ve won (on most days), we do not live as victims, we do not victimize others, we love deeply and generously, we guard and protect- sometimes against our own best interests- because we know pain too well and do not wish to others suffer it. Those are beautiful gifts with more upsides than down, but we must love ourself in order to love others well. Give yourself and your wife the gift of you, no more mixed messages about who you are, love. I’ll admit that I lack the power to know how any of our stories ends, but I’m convinced that the only way to live them is deeply from the heart, one day at a time.
You, dearest, are better and stronger than anything ever said or done to you. You have won. Give yourself grace, the same that you extend to your beautiful family. And, don’t reject yourself to preempt their rejection. Pruning can be painful and hurt, but it makes our lives more fruitful and brings out the best.
I wish my Portland wasn’t on the left coast at the moment. As always I’m sending you wishes for joy and peace with more love than you can grasp.
Take care.
Longtime fan of Dan’s, recently awed by the responders. (I’m so happy for you Kim, and Desp.Me I wish the best to you too.) The recent posts have blown me away. You are all wonderful!
I’m so glad that you are doing great, despicable me.
And, I love reading you Canuck and EricaP.
Thank you, avast2006 @ 254.
@270 kim in poetry
maxbosco1 at hotmail not my real name
“represents MTV’s first foray into non-music-video programming.” Uhhh, let’s not get carried away with the trailblazing self-congratulation, Dan. Ever hear of the “Real World”? Been on almost 2 decades I think.
P.S. #47 Thank you.
jenesasquatch,
I can’t say I’ve read your whole story but I’ve read some. This revelation about bipolar disorder is a game changer. That is a serious mental disorder.
Your one month agreement to have an open marriage…was that before or after your obsession with that other woman? Even if that didn’t happen, doesn’t it seem like going outside your marriage in any capacity is a monumentally bad idea if you have bipolar disorder?
Your disorder must be difficult for her. You are probably far more mercurial than you realize. Don’t you think that might be a big part of the problem…that it’s hard, that she doesn’t always know who she’s coming home to, that she knows you might do something really hurtful to her not because of you but because of the disorder?
If you react to your own callous treatment of your wife by talking about cutting out your own tongue, how is she supposed to talk to you about how that made her feel? Are you internalizing your episodes? Do you think you are your disorder? How are you treating it? Are you seeing somebody regularly and taking medication?
There are better ways to deal with this sort of thing. There are ways to deal with bipolar disorder. It doesn’t seem like the two of you are really dealing with it at all. It seems like you’re just trying to ride out the storms as they come.
@252 – “My wife… has no idea how far short a few minutes on top once a week is. I’ve tried to explain, but she gets defensive, and feels pressured, and that only makes it worse.”
Don’t let this issue get swept under the rug for years. You’re at once-a-week now; many Slog posters wish they had that much. If your sex life used to be better, ask her what changed. Don’t let years go by while she forgets that her body can bring her pleasure.
If sex isn’t ever mutually satisfying, it won’t last. Dameedna@215 and his wife have reached an understanding where she links sex with other things that she values more, so she understands what she gets in exchange. But equally important, in my mind, is that he says that sometimes she does get sexual pleasure from the act itself.
Sounds like jenesasquatch and his wife only have sex when she will enjoy it. That’s great for her, but leaves him feeling blue. It’s so hard to find the acceptable middle ground, where there is enough sexual pleasure for the low libido partner that she remembers sex is fun, and enough frequency for the high libido partner that he doesn’t feel cut off from his sexuality. (Apologies for the gendered pronouns.) Hard work, made harder because our society undermines the endeavor at every turn. But crucial.
despicable me@269: Glad you’re doing well these days; thanks for writing to let us know.
jenesasquatch… just a thought, but maybe yr wife finds being whined about on the internet a giant turnoff? all you ladies snuggling up to this guy, a guy that I’m presuming (what with the serious mental illness and all) none of you would touch with a bargepole in real life, are pretty sickening. the cooing of bourgeois fixers ain’t gonna fix this.
there’s nothing wrong with being lonely and in pain and needing to talk. I’m betting the internet won’t help you fix that for real, though. best of luck with actually getting some help that doesn’t involve splatting your marriage all over the world’s least anonymous sex column.
Thanks for sharing, White Hotel, but this is, in fact, an anonymous forum, and I would like to think we’re all learning and gaining new insights, here. And how dare you presume to tell people what they would or would not deal with in real life? You presume we’re married to people with no faults, who have never needed counselling, or that we ourselves are without fault? It’s a nice black and white world you live in, I guess, but it’s not my world. Knowing what I do about both you and jenesasquatch, I can tell you which person I’d rather have over for dinner…(hint: It’s not you.)
Thank you for sharing your opinion and concern, white hotel. tWas sweet of you. Don’t go into mind reading business, though. You’re not omniscient yet.
Cheers!
@278
I’m more of pee drinker than a whine drinker. I think the Beaujolais you refer to come out in November though don’t they? Oh yeah. I can’t have alcohol with my meds or I become so fabulous they need to collect me in large butterfly net. Thanks for your input!
@282 *grin*
@282, I’ll have to remember to stop drinking long before I pee in your mouth then, I guess… jk, jk… Haven’t been called bourgeois in quite a while. If only it were as easy as whitehorse suggests to find people outside SL who don’t judge one for speaking openly about sexual and marital difficulties.
@275 shw3nn
Yes, it’s a serious illness. I accept that it’s a deal-breaker in dating. It was on my list of undateable qualities above. I’m not interested in dating at this time. I think my wife and I can do better together.
Order of events:
1) new medication (prozac) (+scotch see @282)
2) first diagnosis of bipolar; major depression previous
3) obsession with woman (with borderline personality disorder just cuz I never fuck anything up halfway)
4) butterfly net (just kidding)
5) new medication (no more alcohol thanks)
6) more medication
7) open marriage
If you’ve never had the misfortune of experiencing any sort of mania let me explain an important point: Mania is infinitely worse than depression if you have any sort of conscience. Mania/depression is not analogous to happy/sad. Depression is an inward suffering that causes other humans to want to comfort you. Mania scares the shit out of people and makes them want to physically hurt you.
You don’t know me but I love my wife as much as it is humanly possible. She is the most beautiful, loving soul I have ever known. I would never have considered marriage or family without having met her. I absolutely adore her every minute I’m with her. You know those disgusting “soul mate” couples making sappy faces at each other and referring to one another with nauseating nicknames? That’s us. And with no sign of letting up, sex or no sex.
Can you understand my use of floral language to describe my remorse for that particular behavior, despite her recognition that I was (her words) “out of your fucking mind?” (observation not accusation)
We have a good understanding of each other on most things. A spouse is the best monitor of a bipolar person’s state so her’s is the opinion we go with. I have been stable/slightly to somewhat depressed for years now and we prefer it that way. Until there’s a cure we will not risk mania. I will not experiment with other meds because of the risk of a)death or b)mania. Depression I understand very well after a lifetime of experience. I can handle depression.
My illness is not at crisis level and hasn’t been for a long time. I don’t believe it has any role in our sex life at the present.
@284 EricaP
No, no as long as your liver is working fine it’s okay!
You are both eloquent and perceptive, jenesasqatch. It’s a privilege to have you sharing your story with us. If your wife is the lovely person in other respects that you’ve described, I’m sure you’ll find a way to get through to her.
@287 Canuck
Thanks. I hope I will.
So… he made no sexual advances nor discussed sex with his wife for A YEAR and then “finally got fed up and confronted her” (read: got angry and yelled at her about it)? Whaaaa….? Dude you can’t expect to have a normal sex life if you never discuss sex with your wife, and then when you finally do, you are super negative about it. Also you didn’t even tell us how she reacted when you blew up – if it was anything other than slapping you, you got off lucky. From her perspective, maybe she thought you were done with sex too.
Bring it up more often, and kindly. At least once a week.
@286: Good to know!
@276 “It’s so hard to find the acceptable middle ground, where there is enough sexual pleasure for the low libido partner that she remembers sex is fun, and enough frequency for the high libido partner that he doesn’t feel cut off from his sexuality. ….. Hard work, made harder because our society undermines the endeavor at every turn. But crucial. “
Exactly Erica. I would observe that it doesn’t have to be specifically sexual pleasure you get from the encounter either. I think one of the things that impedes a resolution is if the higher-libido partner pressures or expects their partner to react exactly as they do, or insist that they be sexually passionate or experience orgasm. I only expect a welcome from her, and if she wants or finds herself getting aroused, then woopie! Other times it can be more like a peck on the cheek, but it does enable the deeper mutually passionate encounters when it’s right for her.
Your observation that there are societal attitudes and expectations which make it more difficult is spot on – and really the point I’d want to make. Challenge those beliefs and attitudes, and accept flexibility, imperfection and good-enough, and you stand a much better chance. Sometimes that won’t work, but at least you’re then doing what’s best for both of you, not dancing to some other person’s tune or ideology. We ain’t on the earth long.
Has anyone considered the idea that maybe she’s not frigid? Maybe, she’s no longer interested in him and possibly having a thing on the side?
Has anyone considered that maybe she hasn’t lost her libido; maybe she’s not attracted to him and cheating on him? If they can communicate so well when it comes to other issues, maybe she’s not forthright in communication because she feels guilty/doesn’t want to be found out? Just mentioning it because a friend went through something like that. Turns out she wasn’t frigid; she just wasn’t having sex with him.
@293 jesseeo
How to sort out the liars, eh? That’s a possibility as you say. But wouldn’t the thing to do be the same? Wouldn’t he need to tough it out and deal with her openly and honestly?
@292 – what is the deal with her orgasms? Does she know how to get there, but doesn’t feel the desire very often? Is it hard for her to get there? Does she do fine with masturbation? Has she tried strong vibrators? erotica? does she fantasize, ever?
I understand not wanting to pressure her, but she only gets one go-round at life. And many women waste time believing they can’t orgasm, or not easily. How sure are you, that she has really educated herself about her body and her options?
I do think that her pleasure in sex should be physical pleasure (at least some of the time), not just enjoying giving you pleasure. It would take a lot to convince me that she wasn’t capable of physical pleasure.
EricaP, I think you mean @291…
And to respond to your question, I agree that at a *certain age,* we women-folk would do well to investigate the charms of Babeland, etc., for some B.O.B.s…however, some people are funny about stuff like that, embarrassed, whatever. So, introducing some toys (along with a few glasses of wine, probably) would be a good idea, but I did have a thought, aside from that: What dame edna describes is probably pretty common, owing to fluxuations (why doesn’t slog like the spelling of that?) in monthly cycles, etc., she may not feel like ringing the bell every time. Sometimes, it’s like going out for a nice dinner, which you really enjoyed, but your husband wants dessert, and although it looks good, you’re too full to want any…
@289: No one should ever consider themselves “lucky” for not getting hit by their spouse. I’m pretty fucking sick of this idea that it’s normal for a woman to slap a man if she’s offended by what he has to say. Newsflash: hitting your spouse is DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, and it doesn’t change a thing just because the person taking the swing has a twat between her legs. Acting as if female-on-male violence is funny, or appropriate, or “to be expected”, is an excellent way to make men (collectively) give a lot less of a shit about female victims of domestic violence.
@296 Canuck
fluctuation
@291 dameedna
Let me add to what EricaP said. I once dated a young woman who never orgasmed. It turned out that it had never occurred to her to touch herself and had no idea of what an orgasm felt like. I had her do some homework and that took care of that. She masturbated alone to orgasm, then we did ourselves next to each other, then I did her. Smooth sailing after that.
@285 I am familiar with bipolar disorder.
I am going to be brutally honest, I think you are lying to yourself.
I don’t feel the way that white horse does. The love and support you are getting doesn’t sicken me. I want you to continue getting it. I’m not trying to wrest it from you nor do I think I could.
I just want to put this idea into your head for you to consider and ruminate on.
Your wife gave you permission to fuck other women despite feeling so completely averse to the idea that she would have left you if you had actually done it. She tried her best to ignore her own feelings about it until she realized she couldn’t.
So, it is a fact that your wife keeps things from you and tries to ignore her own feelings for your sake. That does happen in your marriage. Her suppression of her feelings almost ended your marriage. She was willing to suppress feelings strong enough to end your marriage.
I would not describe the language you used as floral so much as graphic.
Using language like that is an effective way to prevent others from criticizing you. It’s a way to protect yourself. You punish yourself in front of others to keep them from punishing you.
Do you recognize that this kind of language doesn’t allow for completely open communication?
Your obsession with this other woman almost certainly caused your wife pain. What did the two of you do for her, to heal the wound you most certainly caused?
Has she yelled at you and called you a piece of shit and beat you with a foam pillow?
If I were in her situation, I would need to do that, just for my own sanity, despite how much I knew it wasn’t really his fault.
I would say, “Somebody who looks exactly like you ripped my heart out and ate it while I watched. And I am furious. I have anger. I need to unload this anger.”
Unless, of course, he kept talking about cutting his tongue out and wanting to kill himself. If that were the case, I would think, “He’s so hard on himself. I can’t say anything mean to him. I’ll just swallow my anger and press on.”
Also, I think that, if you really let her be angry with you, it would alleviate this remorse that you feel. Of course she realizes that it wasn’t you. It was the disorder. But, like Jung said, “The educated man tries to repress the inferior man in himself, not realizing that by so doing he forces the latter into revolt.”
This whole thing could be your wife’s lizard brain saying, “If I don’t get to have my tantrum, you don’t get to have a sex life.”
@35 — sorry, she likes really light caressing and head for 30 minutes or more…
Oh, too funny, jenesasquatch! Seriously, I just googled, and found this blog title: “Today, I tried to spell fluctuate as “fluxuate.” Doh. May I just say that if I ran the world, it would be spelled with an x…. 😉
(Mr. Canuck is now laughing his head off…)
shw3nn, something to consider: some people don’t yell and scream and throw things when they are angry or hurt. Not everyone reacts that way, and “lets it out.” I have no idea what category jenesasquatch’s wife falls into, but I can relate to not blowing up. I was raised by a mom who read all the 60s and 70s literature, and was constantly advising me to yell at her when I was mad…I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me!” Some people just don’t do that.
As far as the other stuff goes, you can never be sure how someone will react to a thing until you get it out in the open. EricaP and her husband opened up their marriage, but that was after a very painful (from what she’s said) conversation. They very well may have tried to open it up, and found that after a month it wasn’t possible for one of them…you aren’t going to know these things until you try it.
I’m just getting the feeling you think marriages aren’t messy…what is it Dan says? A constant series of apologies offered and accepted, or something? Anyway, I think everyone is just trying to navigate, and realign when things change over time.
Canuck @296 – thanks, yes, I meant 291. I don’t think a woman who is married and has children gets to say “oh, I’m too embarrassed to think about sex toys and talk about orgasm.” I mean, WTF? If she said she was too embarrassed to learn about birth control, or teach her daughter the facts of life, would that be okay? Not in my world. Women don’t get out of learning how to do their taxes, how to change a tire, and how to have orgasms.
And @302 – don’t forget the occasional orgasms, after the apologies offered and accepted.
@301 – thanks for chiming back in! So, when you give her really light caressing and head for 30 minutes … does that lead to orgasm? Does she masturbate? does she let you masturbate when she’s in the room?
@300 shw3nn
“I don’t feel the way that white horse does. The love and support you are getting doesn’t sicken me. I want you to continue getting it.”
Thank you.
“I am familiar with bipolar disorder.”
How so? Many commenters tell stories of violent bipolar people they have known. I am not that person, assuming there was one in your life. I am an extremely peaceful person even when experiencing hypomania. It would be nice if you would look at your own life and be honest about whether you have an ax to grind. I’m curious.
“I would say, ‘Somebody who looks exactly like you ripped my heart out and ate it while I watched.'”
“I would not describe the language you used as floral so much as graphic.”
Ditto to the latter.
As a matter of fact she has no reservations about tearing me a new one and did so over this issue, within earshot of our son. As much as I thought that was not the time I sat silently, ashamedly and accepted her anger and broken heart. Would it help you understand if I said that she’s the man in some aspects of our relationship?
This is the only place where I’ve put my feelings into such terms. I don’t go on about it to her. I have never threatened suicide. This space is not a conversation with my wife. I’m talking through things here with compassionate people whose incredible giving has made significant improvement to my life.
My wife and I have talked through that time in our marriage. We’ve had those hard conversations. If one of us has inhibitions as a result it’s me. I told you of my remorse. Can you imagine me asking for open marriage again? Or would you recognize that I would go to the ends of the earth to find another solution?
If we are going to start quoting pioneering therapists then let me paraphrase this: sometimes a monogamist is just a monogamist.
EricaP, agreeing with you (about the sex toys) doesn’t make it happen out there, seriously, a lot of women (not slog women, obviously…) just would not talk about that, or would be embarrassed about it. It’s silly, but that’s our sex-negative/virgin/whore culture for you…
Re: orgasms: one of the biggest proponents of women learning to do this for themselves is Betty Dodson. If you google her, and see the picture (current) on her website, I dare you to guess how old she is…I was thinking 60s. Anyway, I am firmly convinced her daily “regime” has done more for her skin than any anti-wrinkle cream could. I think the release of stress and the daily pleasure has given her an O face we’d all be happy to have… 🙂
@306 she looks amazing! Wow! And of course I don’t believe all women will magically become sexually liberated because I post about this. But who has the most incentive to encourage them to think about opening up to how their bodies can feel, if not their sexually deprived husbands?
All I’m saying is that if you are a guy who wants more sex, one avenue to try (besides bribing her with presents and vacations and doing the chores), is to make it a marital project to figure out how she can learn to get pleasure from sex. Surely if she likes it more, she’ll want it more. At least more than none at all. And you’ll both enjoy sex more if she is less the madonna and more the whore.
The flip side of this is that I think a lot of women fake pleasure early on in a relationship, all the way up to when the babies come. With the arrival of kids, she has achieved one of her life goals, and she has different priorities now. If she wasn’t enjoying sex before, she now has little reason to continue to fake it; the two of you are tied together by the children you made.
So, what’s a guy to do? Leave her for someone else, or figure out how to make her into someone who can enjoy sex honestly. See @299 for evidence that this is possible.
@302 – Ms Canuck, I rather like fluxuate; it’s very Austenian. The Austen juvenilia is about five times better if published with the original spelling.
And bless Mr Jenesasquatch for a mention of Marianne Dashwood, who has been so vilely abused lately. I have yet to recover from the most recent version of S&S. Making Marianne fall in love with Brandon BEFORE she marries him? Heresy that completely chucks almost everything that is most powerful about her! It gives me a migraine even now just to contemplate it.
I am developing considerable fellow feeling for Mr J (poor you!). Sometimes one just knows what one isn’t going to do, however much sense it may make or how reasonable its proponents. Or one does something almost immediately after concluding it would be inadvisable.
@300 shw3nn
One more thing:
“So, it is a fact that your wife keeps things from you and tries to ignore her own feelings for your sake.”
Actually her words in making that agreement were “I’m not ready to lose you yet.” She didn’t want to lose her marriage. It wasn’t that she wanted to spare my feelings. She agreed to something out of desperation to hold onto the person she loves, solely for herself, something she had no ability to follow through on. She saw that pretty quickly I’d say.
@309 vennominon
Greetings! Ah, the late Mrs. Brandon. Perhaps 21st century moviegoers can handle only so much deus ex machina (Harry Potter franchise notwithstanding). Have pity on us, Sir.
I could use a vigorous “fellow feeling” but, alas, you may have meant something else.
(let it not be said that I only hit on the ladies here)
Thank you, vennominon! I would very much like to be in charge of inventing new spellings, but alas, like my many other gifts, they are not in high demand by the general public… 🙂
One of my favourite cartoons ever was in the New Yorker back when I was in high school, I should have kept it, but I remember it to this day: A big, burly man with a three day beard sits in the witness stand, the prosecutor is asking him, “So, it is true that on the night in question, you were at home writing a biography of Jane Austen?”
EricaP, if only we could flit from town to town with be-ribboned sex baskets, passing out vibrators hither and yon, leaving smiling women in our wake…. 🙂
Oh jenesasquatch, here’s hoping you manage to round up a “fellow feeling” sooner rather than later…no idea how the planets will have to align to allow this, but stranger things have happened…. 😉
Excellent advice to PATH and Maggie Gallagher, Dan!
Damn!! Now I WISH I had a TV so I could watch your MTV broadcast!!
@312, I’m picturing you like Glinda, descending to earth in a bubble full of vibrators to hand out like lollipops to Munchkins…
Me, I feel more like the wicked witch, dispersing flying monkeys bearing vibrators to people who are like, ew, why would I want one of those, I’m so content with my sexless life… Did you see the awful column in the NYT style section today? “The Sex Drive, Idling in Neutral”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/fashio…
Mr. Savage:
1. Since you feel that monogamy is an “aberrant lifestyle”, please explain why it is that non-monogamous individuals are the ones who are most likely to end up divorced, dying or infected with an incurable STD, killed or injured in a lover’s spat, divorced, never-married, or with multiple illegitimate kids and child support orders.
2. Gallagher never said the spouses should not converse amongst themselves to strengthen their marriages and work things out. In fact, she encourages spouses to work through all marital problems. Your position is completely phony.
3. Free love, even among “consenting adults” is asking for it, if not the aberrant lifestyle. Studies consistently prove that jealousy — which is a normal and biologically-imprinted feeling, has social purpose. So does guilt, which is something folks should listen to before following the sexually-promiscuous lifestyles you often encourage your readers to pursue.
Instead of attacking Gallagher, you could have done your reader the anticipated favor of giving him good advice about getting into counseling and working through the problem with her.
Mr. Savage:
1. Since you feel that monogamy is an “aberrant lifestyle”, please explain why it is that non-monogamous individuals are the ones who are most likely to end up divorced, dying or infected with an incurable STD, killed or injured in a lover’s spat, divorced, never-married, or with multiple illegitimate kids and child support orders.
2. Gallagher never said the spouses should not converse amongst themselves to strengthen their marriages and work things out. In fact, she encourages spouses to work through all marital problems. Your position is completely phony.
3. Free love, even among “consenting adults” is asking for it, if not the aberrant lifestyle. Studies consistently prove that jealousy — which is a normal and biologically-imprinted feeling, has social purpose. So does guilt, which is something folks should listen to before following the sexually-promiscuous lifestyles you often encourage your readers to pursue.
Instead of attacking Gallagher, you could have done your reader the anticipated favor of giving him good advice about getting into counseling and working through the problem with her.
@311 – Actually I didn’t mind the film with Ms Winslet much; they didn’t stress the point either way and they got some good economical points with Mr Wise on horseback. I meant the Andrew Davies version from a couple of years back that Ms Linney introduced on Masterpiece. There were two grievous faults; one, that, even before Edward and Elinor are able to unite, Marianne tells Elinor that she truly, madly deeply loves Colonel Brandon and has consented to marry him. The other spoiled one of my favourite passages in the book, having Marianne ask if they haven’t all been happy at the cottage, though as poor as the gypsies, and Elinor replying that they’d have been happier had they had a little more money. In the book, Marianne, shocked when Elinor admits that wealth has much to do with happiness, claims that a mere competence surely must suffice. But Elinor correctly suspects that Marianne’s ideas are simply more noble; when all is revealed, Marianne’s “competence” is an income of eighteen hundred or two thousand a year, while one thousand is Elinor’s “wealth”.
As for fellow feeling, I based it on my situation being even less likely to lead to sexual satisfaction than yours. My romantic status is Retired, although Reserved might express it better (too bad, in a way; as I don’t send explicit emails or naughty pictures, there would be no danger of your son finding anything he ought not), just in case my last ever decides to return. I’m sure he won’t, and it is entirely right and proper for him that he doesn’t, but I know at heart that I am wholly his property. Painful as this is to write, were he but to beckon, I’d drop Stephane Lambiel for him, which is not something to contemplate lightly.
But I do have a good track record making matches. At any rate, my accomplishments there exceed those of Miss Woodhouse. Although I shall hope for you that your devotion to your wife is eventually returned in the form you desire, I shall put you on my mental Provisional list.
Ms Canuck – it also makes me think of Lady Edwina’s “fluxive precipitations” in Loitering With Intent. Sometimes in an ambitious mood I try to plot out the narrator’s first three novels Warrender Chase, All Souls’ Day and The English Rose, the last of which usually makes me think of Nessarose and wonder why we never get her point of view.
Erica @315 See, this is what we’re working with! If that attitude is prevalent (the NYT article), then it’s no wonder Dan gets 100 of these letters a week, it’s as though the woman who wrote that feels sex is something to outgrow, like a taste for cotton candy or Keds sneakers. If you haven’t already read this, here is an antidote, the article that earned Ayelet Waldman a thousand bad mommy points from the “good” mommies. Apparently, she went on the Oprah show after this, and there were women in the audience who said things like, “I watch TV while my husband has sex with me, and tell him to get it over with quickly.” Ugh.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/fashio…
And you can’t possibly know just how much I wanted to be Glinda when I was little… too funny!
vennominon, I saw your comment over on the pink nail polish thread…I agree, thanks for the reminder…I tend to forget that anonymous isn’t really, sigh.
vennominon, I’ve never read that, but will do so now, thank you! Now would probably not be a good time to mention that I was actually an English major, what with the flux thingy…and part of the reason I knew I would never pursue it as far as teaching was I always felt I would never, ever know as much as my professors did, I used to sit there stunned and amazed…and now I’m reading chick lit for every “real” book, hmmm. I love your example of “fluxive precipitations,” and I am also reminded of a course I took in stained glass making, where I learned to control the elusive “flux”….that’s my excuse, and I’m sticking with it!
@318 vennominon
Andrew Davies is a delight in so many ways although at times I have exclaimed at the television machine, “Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ! Is there no other screenwriter in the world?!”
I found the scene in the Masterpiece Classic version, which you rightly fault, in which Edward and Elinor converse briefly across an open room to be incredibly moving. Their passion is expressed so clearly despite their demeanor being so restrained by the society in which they live. Beautiful acting!
I hope your matchmaking has been a great success in comparison to that of the late Mrs. Knightly. I encourage you to try your skill on the man in the mirror. You have so much to offer. But advice is easy to dispense…
Be happy. Perhaps it is you who art the prince who someday will come.
Oh good we are discussing “Sense and Sensibilities”. I’m so glad I brought Miss Marianne up earlier. Lovely book.
Dear Mr. Ursher (@317),
Do get back to us when you have the read the entire body of work that Mr. Savage has created and not before. If after you have digested everything he has written and said, meditated upon it throughly, you still come to the conclusion that Mr. Savage is about the “free lifestyle” and promotion of divorce, then you should consider some remedial comprehension. And, do not forget that according to the US census, atheist and agnostics, make up approximately 3% of the US population. While those who claim to be affiliated with Christianity is approximately 90%. Perhaps figuring out why so many Christians are divorcing would be a better use of NOM’s time?
@322 – Excellent choice of a favourite scene, which to me made up for the necessity of miscasting Edward Ferrars. Modern audiences need a tolerable hero, although I do cherish the prediction of one G.B. Stern that, seven years after the end of S&S, dear, impulsive Mrs Dashwood, at the “decrepit” age of 47, marries again, and weds a man superiour in looks, charm and fortune to either of her sons-in-law. And at least a charming Edward Ferrars is still vastly more believable than casting a Fanny Price with abundant vitality.
Actually, I’m safer off the market. If you recall Edmund Bertram mistakenly thinking that, if Henry Crawford asks Fanny Price to love him, she won’t have the heart to refuse, that’s what I’m really like. I was never able to turn anyone away, no matter how wise I knew it would be to do so. I’ve had phenomenally good luck so far and the best hearts ever, but the red always succeeds the black eventually.
But many thanks for your kind wishes.
Holy crap- 300+ comments. Looks like something hit a chord. This thread would make somebody a nice little paper on gender relations.
First, I stand by my comment at #29. Indeed this is so much the norm it is simply expected and when mentioned dismissed as ‘trolling.’ Fact is, although there are many sad examples of women who are not getting sex from their husbands and we hear them all on this chat it is 10 or 20 to 1 (at least). That is it is 10 to 20 times more common for HUSBANDS to be the party not getting the sex they want and being effectively cut off by their WIFE.
So pardon my perspective which happens to favor the male. The other side is amply represented here and everywhere. We know all about the libido loss from babies and choreplay and privacy as the kids grow and all that. So many answers totally missed the point. It has been 2 years of finally giving up after constant rejections and HE is the problem? She is deliberately injuring her husband and it has almost nothing to do with fatigue.
Second, really, @34: Erica making an ad-hominem attack because she disagrees with something I said? I am wounded once again but unsurprised. Yes, I have a personal interest in letting the world know of the dangers of the trap that so many women lay for unsuspecting little spiders. So many women PRETEND to like the sex and maybe even do. But so many suddenly change their minds after the wedding and so many more change their mind after the kid is born. So many this cannot be a coincidence. Yes, I think in some cases it is willful and conscious as a way to punish and control. Are we denying that occurs and that it is very, very common? War is Peace? Freedom is slavery?
#48 I do appreciate the important insight. This has not been my general experience with women but with one particular woman who I have been with forever now. But you are certainly right in that my guess is that yes, all those other women before would have turned out the same way- because I chose them.
I think Erica objects to my hilarious comments like:
“When he comes home stinking of tramp juice at 4:00 a.m.”
On another thread I referred to women as a “spittoon” which is pretty damn funny I think. Yah, it’s funny BECAUSE it’s offensive, I know.
Anyway, it has all been a lot better since I duck taped that fleshlight to the labradoodle. She tried to lick my face at first but learned pretty quick…….
You are a mystery, Professor. I was so impressed with your story of the gay kid in your class who was so favourably influenced by the IGBP, and yet, hmm, while you make good points (yes, husbands who are sexually unsatisfied probably outnumber wives), some of the phrases you use make it pretty hard to take you seriously. They make you sound like a bitter man who hates women. If that’s not the case, I’d suggest you reconsider the meaning of “funny.”
Professor @325, apologies for hurting your feelings by asking (@34) if you were trolling or had a personal interest in the matter.
Your tone is one of trying to protect men from the wiles of women, but you don’t offer any suggestions except to avoid women. Since most men on here want sex with women, I don’t see how your advice helps them. How might one separate out the women who enjoy sex from those who fake it? Surely there are ways… I’ve never heard of any woman who squirted and didn’t like sex, so maybe you could tell men to only marry squirters.
Do you yourself want advice on how to improve your own sex life? Are you willing to open yourself up honestly on this board, as others have done?
@327, went back and reread @29, and you do offer advice: to go outside the marriage. I agree with you on that, although I think our approaches are different (mine assumes good will on the part of both spouses; your approach assumes that she is gleefully torturing you.)
Ms Canuck, LWI is much in my mind of late because I’ve been reading Dame Muriel’s autobiography and seeing how many details of her childhood she gave to Sandy, the girl who betrayed Miss Jean Brodie and became a nun.
As for your sons, at least they haven’t consulted any of Mr Savage’s colleagues about the situation. I shall resist the temptation to concoct a fake question out of it.
Ha, I see we are both early birds, or at least in a different time zone than Seattle, vennominon! I am actually planning on stopping by our beloved used book store in our little town and looking for that book before I head into the city today, so thank you for that recommendation.
My oldest, who no longer lives at home, has been known to phone me at odd hours after midnight from parties and then shove the phone into a friend’s hand, saying “Here, talk to my mom, you’ll see where I get it from!” Apparently, being a volunteer condom hander-outer has given me no small amount of “street cred” amongst the 22 year olds…(huzzah!)
And I made sure he has the Savage Love app on his phone, and will admit to living in fear of seeing a SL letter from him one of these days… 🙂
That’s sweet, Canuck. Our eldest made my head spin the other day, I over heard her telling a friend that it was unreasonable to expect her boyfriend to not be attracted to guys when she knew he was bisexual from the start. So, I cleared my throat and asked if she’d been reading “Uncle Dan’s” books, and she said “No” he said that I should wait till I was older to read him. She then went on to explain that she had asked herself “What would Mom say?” There’s evidence that even teens, pay attention when we think they are lost in their own worlds and stresses.
Those little moments of grace make all the diaper changes worth it, don’t they, Kim? And may I say that your children probably have the coolest Uncle ever, even if they do have to wait a little longer to ask “all” of the questions 🙂
That’s pretty great that your daughter uses that yardstick (“what would mom do?”) for figuring things out…makes you realize just how far an open mind (or a closed one, for that matter) affects how children view the world, and their place in it.
@332 kim in portland
Wow, it would be a dream come true if The Boy™ turns out that way. Job well done, Kim!
Bravo, Dan! You hit it out of the park (if you’ll pardon the sports analogy). You not only answered PATH’s question, but exposed Maggie “Do as I Say, Not as I Do” Gallagher’s hypocricy.
#47–I’m sorry you were offended by Dan’s negative comments about the Catholic Church. Of course the RCC does good things; but then again, so did the People’s Temple when they were in San Francisco. The good things an organization does do not erase the bad things. When an organization does bad things, they needs to be talked about openly so they can be corrected. Honest conversation is what’s needed, not declaring any organization–no matter how much good it otherwise does–to be “beyond reproach.” To paraphrase: “All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to say nothing.”
Thanks, Canuck and jenesasquatch,
Our children have always had the habit of uncle-ing and aunt-ing people. Neither have had the priviledge of meeting Dan. He’s uncle-d because a few years back I won a 15 minute phone call with him in a charity auction for a battered women shelter. And he helped her understand how to put on a condom, we used my fist and a small squash. She was 13, and condoms were part of the sex education curriculum. Hence, the encouragement to read him when she was older. She did write him a thank you letter, though.
Our youngest, now 13 (and taller than me), is active along with his sister in their schools GSA. And, expects to get the same condom demonstration as his sister.
Everyday it is my honor to be their mother. Hopefully, we are starting them well.
And, as she is nearly 16 now, I told her it was okay to start reading. Advising that either “The Kid” or “The Commitment” may be an excellent place to start. As she and her pals are fans of IGBP on Facebook.
I’m off to my post op, and hoping I get the “green light”.
Sorry if there was any confusion.
Good luck, Kim!
Let us know how you are doing, Kim. You are in my thoughts.
Oh, I kind of assumed you meant adopted Uncle, but still, not many kids get a one to one phone chat, that’s pretty awesome. Good luck from me too!
Thank you. Not exactly good news, still no cancer is good, there is an excellent chance I’ll have to have another flippin’ surgery and still a big “red light”. I think I might be getting a tad wound up. Creativity is lovely, but sometimes…. And, there goes my reputation of being a sure thing. jk
xo
Oh, sorry Kim, I wish it had been all good news, but at least not the worst news…I could send you some of these flavoured condoms I am packaging up at this very moment…? Hugs 🙂
Ms Canuck – yes, not only in New England but an early riser, though at least I don’t sound like Brett Somers.
Ms Kim – So sorry about the likely additional surgery. And good on you about the Uncles and Aunts. Such an honourific really ought to be child-drive rather than imposed from above.
Kim, never feel that you owe anyone good news. News of *you* is cherished.
hope it comes to Canada sooooon! so in love with you Dan 🙂
@340 – your lustfulness is what makes you such a sweet sure thing, honey. Not what’s between your legs, nice as it is. Get better, get all better – we’re pulling for you!
vennominon, oh, I’m jealous now, I grew up in Cambridge, MA, and still miss it…especially Emack & Bolio’s negative chip ice cream.
Maybe PATH’s wife just isn’t that interested in sex any more–it happens with a lot of women after having kids. It’s biology. (Oh, but hooray for those sexually vital women.) I don’t think people realize men and women fuck for different reasons. Besides, kids are exhausting. And most men suck at sex anyway. So why bother? PATH’s reiteration of the ‘fact’ that his marriage is ‘otherwise perfect,’ among other things in his letter, suggests he is extremely repressed and passive-aggressive–maybe he’s really the one that’s uncomfortable with sex, and his wife is simply sick of babying HIS needs (you know, other priorities). Passive-aggressive and avoidance personalities attract each other like flies to manure.
Dan’s line of reasoning has a problem/omission: I’m curious, what, if anything, Dan thinks SHOULDN’T be leveraged as ‘price of admission,’ or ‘dealbreaker,’ in his brand of ethics.
Beautitfully written post, Dan. Especially when you tell the pope to shut the fuck up already.
@348 why would anything be off the table as a “dealbreaker” (except hurting third parties…)
People are who they are. Dan says: tell your prospective partner who you are and what you need, as honestly as you can. Keep ’em updated as that changes over time. Don’t let resentment build up; if the other person’s needs are not what you can handle, let them go. We don’t really belong to each other, no matter what our uber-romantic society says.
Also, men suck at sex because women suck at understanding their bodies. Not to over-generalize or anything.
Good morning, everyone!
see if you can sneak a netflix rider into the contract after syndication
I’ve just reread the original letter with my mind unclouded by Dan’s answer and the 350 previous comments. I noticed something for the first time: “My wife and I click on just about every level: parenting, religion, money, politics.” I see that this guy has made the classic rookie relationship mistake. When we’re young, we tend to think we’re looking for someone we have everything in common with so we’ll never argue or grow apart. As we get older (if we’re lucky or smart), we realize that it’s better to find someone we have good conflict resolution skills with, someone we can disagree with and argue with and talk to and work things out with, someone we have a strong enough commitment to that we stay with even when things get heated. I have to wonder; if these two found that they disagreed on some point of parenting or had different views on something political that came up, what then? They might find that their marriage is pretty awful, and it has nothing to do with sex. I wonder if that’s what marriage counselors are thinking when they steer the conversation away from sex. They might not be anti-sex; they might know that there’s a bigger issue.
@EricaP et al, Simply being honest about one’s poor behavior in no way excuses or absolves said behavior.
But that’s not the main point I wanted to make. My point is, people change. What I thought were ‘dealbreakers’ for me when I was 17 (hell–even 2 years ago) are, upon present reflection, quite absurd and silly. You talk about ‘prices of admission’ and ‘dealbreakers’ as if they were self-evident and incontrovertible things: ‘people are who they are.’ The problem with this kind of ethos is that while it acknowledges the importance of individual choice and responsibility (which is good), it fails to recognize that ‘individuals’ are actually quite shifty and malleable over time. Our desires and preferences, our ‘needs,’ can change, and quite often–without our even realizing it. There’s a problem with doling out advice as if in a vacuum to someone telling them simply to ‘be who they are,’ at the expense of–dare I say it–Morality (capital M), as well as contextual common sense. If I’m honest about my foot fetish as a ‘dealbreaker,’ does that mean it’s right for me to dump my wife and 3 small children and/or find some other woman who will indulge me my fantasies if my wife has a foot fungus phobia? Sure, I HAVE the right. But is it RIGHT? If I know my ‘otherwise great’ boyfriend has a drug addiction (price of admission – and arguably no ‘3rd parties’ being hurt), does that mean I should just ignore it or DTMF? Honesty, honesty to self, honesty to others, is fundamental, yes, but it’s certainly not everything, or the final word.
@353 You can rarely change other people to be the way you want them. You want a boyfriend without a drug addiction – better go find one, rather than hoping the one you have will change for you. Most guys keep their fetishes, more or less, through life. If you know it at 25, tell your partners then, and find someone who loves having her feet rubbed.
If you do find yourself changing at age 40… what is the ethical thing to do? You ask “is it right for me to dump my wife and 3 small children” – Well, first off, you can’t dump the 3 children. You made them, they’re in your life for good. You may not live with them full-time, but many men see their children more after a divorce than before.
As for dumping your wife: look, if you’re happily married, then great! But for people who are unhappy… I don’t see any moral reason for one person to live in pain while trying to hide that pain from their life partner. Talk to each other. Try to come to an accommodation that suits you both. What that looks like is your business. Like dameedna I think social convention shouldn’t determine your life. (Unless that’s what brings you happiness, I guess.)
I’m all for Dan sharing his sex-positive advice with a tv audience but I’m not sure that MTV is the forum for it.
Wow after reading all of those comments (which took quite a number of hours), I had to register just so I can comment but now my head is in a cloud from everything that was said and there are way too many things to comment on. Hmm..
I usually read the column and not the comments but I found that this time, the lw didn’t get much of a response to his question. Of course, as always, we lack enough details to come to a reasonable conclusion on what the real problem is.
Also, we all form our own opinions based on our position in our lives (and our own experiences) which are different from the person in question. I don’t know. I’m speaking as someone who has very little experience with relationships. I just “celebrated” (though it was more mourning than celebration) 3 years of marriage and I have a daughter who is two and a half. This marriage is my first real (monogamous) relationship. I don’t usually like mixing emotions with sex so I tended to stick with emotion-less sex and keep my feelings to myself. There was some talk of bipolar disorder which is something I also live with as well as anxiety disorder and a lot of basic mental mess. But anyway, I’m looking at this situation from the other side. I’m someone who is not sexually satisfied and my husband says I’m cold and untouchable. Before I got married (and had a child), I had a very high sex-drive and now it feels all but dead (I still masturbate but he doesn’t know and we don’t discuss it). I’ve brought up opening our marriage a few times because I think we both have needs that are not being satisfied but he says no way. Anyway, maybe the woman has other reasons why she’s not interested. Maybe she actually just isn’t interested in him. I’m sure this has already been covered. But it’s possible she does want sex but not from her husband. And there could me a million reasons why that is. I guess it’s kind of difficult to give a good answer without knowing both sides of the story.
i’ll probably comment again when my head isn’t in such a fog. I really enjoyed reading all of your comments and wanted to join in the discussion. Take care, everyone.
@356
I agree. waiting two years is fucked, stupid also. Especially if he actually just did something about it and either found out why his wife is holding out and/or find someone else who can satisfy him then he’d realize he wasted so much time doing nothing. There seems to be a missing piece to this puzzle because I can’t understand two years of inactivity. What could he possibly have to lose by doing (or saying) something. I’m probably a total hypocrite but I can’t justify staying in a marriage in which your needs are not being met (and making no attempts at mending the situation). Inaction usually leads to misery. At least, that is how I think and why I’m not someone to give advice to people (i’d give terrible advice). Hah. good luck to that guy. if he waited two years already, he probably has many more years of lonely, sex-free hell in his future.
@357/358 – welcome, mommyducky! I’m sorry this is a rough time for you. Not sure from your letter if you prefer to keep emotions & sex separate or if you’re ready to bring them together. But in any case, right now it sounds like you’re not happy with your husband.
Hope you saw from the long thread that lots of marriages have a rough patch during the years with a young child. For some, it does get better.
Congrats on the show deal, Dan <3 Don’t let them put a muzzle on you. :*
@357: Couples therapy.
Let’s see if I interpret your letter correctly: the implication of your husband telling you that you are “cold and untouchable” is that he would like more sex with you, but feels he is unwelcome. The implication of you offering to open up the relationship is that you would like more sex in general just fine…just not with him. Yeah, I bet that makes him feel real welcome. Also, the implication that you masturbate but he doesn’t know about it is that you have no interest in involving him in your sexuality. Again, unwelcome. No wonder he finds you “cold and untouchable.”
Sounds to me like he understands the situation perfectly. You, on the other hand, sound a little unclear on just how thoroughly you have rejected your husband.
If there are reasons you are unhappy with your husband, you haven’t articulated them. Indeed, you imply that this is just part of your emotional makeup. Keeping sex and emotion separate? Seriously? Why on earth did you get married? Emotionless sex arrangements are for one-night-stands and friends-with-benefits, not spouses. Sexless living arrangements are for roommates, not spouses.
Definitely, couples therapy for you two. Some intensive personal therapy for you by yourself also sounds like it would be a real good idea.
@362 avast2006
“Sounds to me like he understands the situation perfectly.”
As Dr. Schnarch would say, couples who aren’t talking may very well be communicating perfectly clearly.
I think I’ll let Ayelet Waldman take this one. Her take on post-birth non-coitus certainly explains a lot:
“But the real reason for this lack of sex, or at least the most profound, is that the wife’s passion has been refocused. Instead of concentrating her ardor on her husband, she concentrates it on her babies. Where once her husband was the center of her passionate universe, there is now a new sun in whose orbit she revolves. Libido, as she once knew it, is gone, and in its place is all-consuming maternal desire. There is absolute unanimity on this topic, and instant reassurance.
“Except, that is, from me.
“I am the only woman in Mommy and Me who seems to be, well, getting any. This could fill me with smug well-being. I could sit in the room and gloat over my wonderful marriage. I could think about how our sex life – always vital, even torrid – is more exciting and imaginative now than it was when we first met. I could check my watch to see if I have time to stop at Good Vibrations to see if they have any exciting new toys. I could even gaze pityingly at the other mothers in the group, wishing that they too could experience a love as deep as my own.”
More than anything, men suffer from the almost-universally held notion that , after kids, they are/should be regarded as “less than” and should be happy that way.
Women can also be on the other side of this unfortunate equation-for example, when a new father views them as less-viable sex partners after birth- but this is regarded by most to be an unacceptable position, whereas the mom’s new indifference to the husband is perfectly acceptable, given the constraints of children. And how long this indifference lasts is literally anyone’s guess…but that shouldn’t be a problem, right?
I’m in the same boat as PATH… since the night our kid was conceived 4.5 years ago, we’ve had sex four times, all within a 3-month span that ended just over a year ago. After reading most of the comments, I’m not sure whether to feel solace that there are others in my situation, or appalled that so many women would do this to their husband.
I understand the exhaustion of being a (first-time) parent, and it doesn’t help my wife that she is a stay-at-home mom. But I work full time and help with chores/child care whenever I’m at home, and as a reward get to choose between my right and left hands for sexual release. I thought we had solved our sex drought last year, but since then I’ve gotten my head ripped off for daring to state the obvious. Meanwhile, my resentment grows day after day and never gets released.
Divorce isn’t a realistic option, and neither is cheating (all else being equal, I’d rather just fuck my wife), but this is unsustainable. If it wasn’t for the fact that we’ll see relatives and other in-laws this weekend (whom we never see except for holidays), I’d schedule a marriage counselor appointment today.
@366 Read sylvia browning’s letter in the Shit Storm thread… In order to stand up for yourself, you may need to be able to envision those other options (divorcing, or going outside the marriage for sex)…
Oh, and speaking of that thread: Hunter78, since you seem so enamored of mixing discussions between threads (which has got to be more annoying to readers than any of my posts)… You wrote, over there, “But you have to give us a break.” Actually — no. No, I don’t have to give you a break. That’s not how the internet works.
If I were to take advice from anyone, troll, it wouldn’t be you.
Here’s how helpful your own recent posts have been. Of your last 10 posts, 6 have been complaining that other people aren’t posting what you think they should post. We’re not here to fucking entertain you, you twit. Besides the ones ragging on me, here are the others:
today: Getting back to last week’s column (probably a lot more germane than a lot of msgs here)…
Apr 19: Professor, What the fuck is the matter with you? I thought I could always count on you to be totally hard-boiled, and now you’re getting soft on us.
What a desultory Savage Love week. One single letter– another replay on the desirous husband routine. Then the regular (writing) women (and their femomen allies) pitch in, hook up and we have tons of mutually supportive msgs. Subject of the week long gone.
Apr 12 Ok, now that the universe of not caring for oral women has be heard from, can we move on?
Mar 29 The thread is dead.
@362
There are a lot of things left unmentioned in my original comment. I’m not denying the fact that I may be treating him unfairly. It could be a result of the feelings of resentment that I have towards him. Maybe it’s because I work 9-11 hours a night to support his unemployable self and I expect him to help out so I can get some rest and quality time with my daughter. And it’s not because I have a problem being the bread-winner and him being a stay at home dad but that involves actually doing things (like feeding OUR child and cleaning up OUR messes) instead of always handing the child over to my mother and then I have to get lectured about how I’m a horrible mother because I work too much (and being angry at my mother for trying to take over raising my child). It’s not like I can just stop working and spend all day playing with the kiddies. As it is, I have nearly zero time to myself. So, yeah, I have issues. Maybe it’s my fault our marriage went to hell. I’ve considered marriage counseling but I’m more concerned with my own mental health right now before I decide whether this marriage is even worth trying to save. There’s a lot more to this story but I won’t bore you with all the details. But maybe in time we’ll get to know each other better.
I also wanted to add…
Thank you EricaP for the welcome.
@363 jenesasquatch
in regards to lack of communication, I find myself trying and failing quite often to talk to him. He always seems to be just about to leave the room every time I want to have a serious discussion. Or if not, he’ll find a way to make light of everything (which is frustrating when it’s something that is important to me and, I expect, to our relationship). If lack of communication is the problem, it is not because I am unwilling to communicate. And often when I am angry and he tries to play it off by being all huggy-kissy with me, I may say “don’t touch me” but it’s usually followed by “i’m upset because …” and/or he already knows why I’m upset and that is why he’s acting that way. I feel like I’m married to a child so you can imagine why it would be difficult for me to have sexual feelings towards him (it wasn’t always this way; we used to have amazing sex and he was actually the best I ever had at one point… which may be why I married him?). Anyway, I think i rambled enough. Sorry if I’m being defensive.
@365 Hunter78
You’re right. I can’t see how she could let two years go by without saying anything either. Of course, we don’t know what she’s feeling/thinking/doing about it. But if she’s also doing nothing, she has to be equally frustrated. She can’t possibly be happy in that situation. Maybe she thinks he’s not interested because he doesn’t bring it up. But that still doesn’t excuse her from not trying to communicate with him. I’d say the blame is equally on both their shoulders in this case.
mommyducky @371: Thanks for the clarification. All of that additional info certainly sounds like reasons for the breakdown both in intimacy and in communication. It’s a substantially different story when you include all of that.
However, I still see a crying need for couples therapy there. Maybe backed up by a credible threat of divorce if things don’t get better. But I can’t imagine opening the relationship solving any of the things that you mention. You aren’t going to feel any less resentful about his parenting or his household help if he doesn’t improve it, and finding someone else to fuck is merely going to take your affection out of the home relationship entirely, while making him, if anything even more alienated. Given the situation, opening the relationship might as well be divorce in all particulars except mailing address and the signatures on the court decree.
I think therapy is a good idea. Both for myself and for the marriage. I went to a psychiatrist recently who told me I shouldn’t go to therapy and tried to put me on all kinds of new meds. So I’m going to see a new psychiatrist next month and hopefully start therapy for myself first. Then couples therapy will follow. I know that I have a lot of mental issues and everyone tells me I’d be better off getting divorced but in my head, I know I’m no catch with all my baggage and just the fact that someone would want to be with me and put up with all my abuse and rejection is enough. I guess I don’t want to be alone and I haven’t reached a stage yet where I expect to ever be happy (whether it be in a relationship or life in general). So yeah, lots of therapy in my future.
I <3 you Dan.
Thanks for everything.
Wow, Mr. Path, I am YOU, except I am the wife of a man who couldn’t care less about sex. Just like you, everything else is great. Wouldn’t it be great if you and I could just get together for sex only, both totally understanding where the other is coming from? I’ve never cheated, but your letter made me think this would be a win-win situation. Is there a website for that? Anyway, I hear ya. It’s very frustrating.
Wow, Mr. Path, I am YOU, except I am the wife of a man who couldn’t care less about sex. Just like you, everything else is great. Wouldn’t it be great if you and I could just get together for sex only, both totally understanding where the other is coming from? I’ve never cheated, but your letter made me think this would be a win-win situation. Is there a website for that? Anyway, I hear ya. It’s very frustrating.
So, there is such a thing as sex therapy, and not all therapists are tiny Jewish grandmas like dr Ruth, if that’s what’s keeping people away. There are even Centers for Sexual Health around. After a few months of zero libido post-childbirth, my husband & I were helped immensely by working with the johns Hopkins center for sexual health. They had really great advice, and helped me with both physical & mental barriers that were hindering our sex lives. Sex has changed throughout our relationship, but I think that is what has kept it sexually healthy. Big life changes can mean big sex life changes. Working frankly with guidance from pros can start a couple back on the road to a fulfilling sex life.
Great column, Dan. The absolute-fidelity-or-divorce mentality that reigns supreme in America is folly, as far as I’m concerned. I am not the type to need great quantities or varieties of sex, but I acknowledge that people differ widely in their sexual needs. An intact family with “accommodations” is far, far superior, in my book, to a dual-household family torn apart by a sexual mismatch.
p.s. My kids (age 14 and 13) have read and much enjoyed your books. I hope this doesn’t put Child Services on my case.
Great column, Dan. The absolute-fidelity-or-divorce mentality that reigns supreme in America is folly, as far as I’m concerned. I am not the type to need great quantities or varieties of sex, but I acknowledge that people differ widely in their sexual needs. An intact family with “accommodations” is far, far superior, in my book, to a dual-household family torn apart by a sexual mismatch.
p.s. My kids (age 14 and 13) have read and much enjoyed your books. I hope this doesn’t put Child Services on my case.
Dan, you missed an excellent opportunity for a teaching moment.
I strongly suspect that PATH’s wife had her reasons for no longer finding him attractive. They had a new child: was he helping with the housework and childcare, or leaving it all to her? Too often new mothers are exhausted and overwhelmed and have no leftover energy for sex, but instead of trying to make life easier for her and free up that energy for her, their husbands just bitch about not getting laid, which is also NOT attractive and just leads to resentment.
Hey everyone, PATH here. Sorry for the delay, but I’m a Savage-newbie and didn’t realize you could respond to Dan’s articles. I know, I know…a rookie move. Forgive me.
Before anything, I should thank everyone who’s participated in the discussion. Really, I’m overwhelmed and appreciative of those who contributed to the thread. It was incredibly therapeutic to read through the comments and advice, regardless of whether they sympathetic to my wife or I. I probably don’t need to say it, but everyone’s opinions here were/are completely valid. All I can say is thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. It meant a lot to me and I hope that helps other readers as well.
With that said, let me clarify a few things:
1. Our youngest child is now 7 years old, so the responses centered on child-rearing stress (although absolutely valid and understood) don’t necessarily apply in this case. I can remember those years vividly and get where you’re coming from. Giving birth, going without sleep, dealing with colic, spit up, quickly changing needs & moods, etc. is tough enough, but to add an unsupportive partner would be crushing. But I’m not that guy. My wife would not describe me that way. I’m extremely close to my children and have been very involved in their upbringing from the beginning. From changing diapers to playing at the park to schoolwork, I’ve been very involved. My wife and I shared in both child care and daily chores through the years. Still, I recognize that she has done far more than me around the house mostly because she’s been a stay at home mom since our first was born. Also, I am not a workaholic. I know life is short and I’d like to absorb as much of my children’s lives while their young and still like having us around. The bottom line is that neither one of us is abusing the relationship. We’re both conscientious and hard working.
2. I always thought sex was great, consistent, etc. but have to confess that after reading Dan’s articles for a few weeks, my wife and I are still in the “vanilla” column. We have A LOT to learn, but feel like Savage Love is a good place to start. I’ve tried introducing variety into our sex life in the past, but my ideas were typically rejected (any ass play, outdoor sex, toys, etc.). My “M.O.” was to give her oral to the point of orgasm before any vaginal intercourse. Not only does it turn me the hell on, it ensures heavy lubrication, yet another turn on. We would explore each other’s bodies during sex and generally have a good time. Although I referenced some weight gain, it wasn’t all that much and it was temporary (eating and drinking helped me deal with the pain of the situation). I’m HWP now, having gotten back into the gym and jogging with regularity. BTW, for those of you out there like me, exercise is the best way to burn off “testosterone poisoning”.
3. When I stopped initiating sex over two years ago, I wanted to know TRUTHFULLY what my wife’s labido was. Her rejections increased slowly during the 3 years leading up to this “experiment”, when our youngest was already past the infant stage. We still had plenty of intimacy at that time (kissing, hand holding, hugging, cuddling, etc.), but I felt like I was becoming a predator when it came to the bedroom. I didn’t want to be the guy who pressures his wife for intercourse just to get his rocks off. That’s not me, it never has been. At the same time, I wanted to understand, honestly, to what extent our sexual interest differed. So I just removed any pressure/expectation for sex and waited. If she had shown any discomfort or anxiety, brought it up in conversation, ANYTHING at all, I would have responded positively. She never did. As the months passed by, I became confused and anxious. It took about a year for me to realize sex was, to put it simply, optional for her. I felt abandoned and angry and naive and it only got worse over time. I wrongly assumed that everyone needed emotional, physical (hugging, holding hands, etc.) and sexual intimacy. Turns out that although I did, my wife only needed (wanted?) the first two. That was hard for me to process.
4. Neither one of us has had a traumatic sexual experience, is gay or has had an affair. Also, we’re monogamous by choice. Just lucky to agree on that point I guess.
5. As an update since I sent Dan the email, my wife and I have started having an open dialogue. Her responses can be summarized as 1.) she didn’t realize that I needed sex so badly (a suprise that I’m still skeptical about), 2.) that I was moody, especially over the past year (very true) and didn’t want to confront me (another suprise as this was never a problem before), 3.) it’s “complicated” (very true, there are many other moving parts in our relationship and lives that contributed to this), 4.) she’s self-conscious about her weight (I’ve tried reassuring her that the biggest turn on for men is an actively interested partner, not appearance), and 5.) medications that are libido-killers (self-explanatory, but we were already aware of this). Also in the past month we’ve both entered marital counseling. I selected a seperate therapist only because my wife’s therapist is female and I wanted a man’s point of view on this topic, preferably one who’s gone through this before. It’s our intention to come together for counseling at some point as well. I’m both open and interested in this.
With that said, here are some things I’ve realized while reading (and re-reading) your comments:
1. I am a total asshole for not speaking up sooner. Two years is too long. I will apologize to my wife about this later today. Although my intentions were sincere (not wanting to pressure her, only wanting to know if she still desired sex, etc.), it was a bad idea to not talk about our intimacy issues sooner. This only lengthened the path to restoring our relationship (if that’s what we decide). On top of that, my “blowing up” was a bad idea as well, as was my countless, aggressive attempts to revisit this topic over and over again (sorry, I’m trying to have a softer approach, but it’s…really…hard…to…do…).
2. I underestimated the general stresses of life. Although moms need a lot of leeway after any child is born, I didn’t realize that sex is impacted for many years afterwards as well. With one/multiple little people running around the house, intent on interrupting your relationship at the most opportune moments, it’s difficult to be present sexually. You can’t just run upstairs for a romp in the middle of the day, evening, etc. anymore. In other words, our daily window of opportunity has diminished. This isn’t anyone’s fault, just a fact of life. We’ve taken romantic trips together in the past about once a year, but that’s not enough (well, for me at least). We should/will change that when the time’s right.
3. When I became angry in our relationship, I basically killed it at that point. I mean, who really wants to fuck an angry person, right?
4. Although I tried to paint myself as “the perfect husband” in my original email to Dan, I’m glad many of you called “bullshit”. You are all right in your own ways. With Dan’s format, he doesn’t always have the time or editorial length to capture a comprehensive and accurate picture. Truth is, I’ve been practicing blaming my wife for about 18 months, so will need to spend some time backing that out. My gut feel is that the majority of this problem is actually mine. In our recent conversations she claims that she wants sexual intimacy back in our lives. At this point, I sort of believe her. With what’s happened, my trusting that what she’s saying is true will not be an easy task.
Again, thanks to everyone who stepped into my little hell. Love should not be so complicated, yet we’re so creative at making it so, eh? I’m starting to hear my kids getting out of bed upstairs, so will have to end it quickly here, but I’ll be back to Dan’s column (and responses!) soon I’m sure.
Life’s short, be nice to each other.
PATH
Wow, PATH, thanks for writing!!
Could you explain this a little more?
>> she claims that she wants sexual intimacy back in our lives. At this point, I sort of believe her.>>
She claims that she wants more sexual intimacy – what do you think she is up for, at this point? being naked in bed? you going down on her? mutual masturbation? Does she mean some sexual interaction is okay, but not intercourse, yet? Or does she mean – “some day, when all the housework is done and the kids are asleep and we’re both well rested (ie, never), then we can fuck”?
Thanks for writing with the update and further info, PATH! I would think that since so much time has gone by, you’re both feeling kind of self-conscious about starting up sex again. I hope you can both find a way to get beyond that. If she’s game, sometimes reading erotica can help, I think sometimes women tend to respond to things they read better than things they see, like porn. Good luck!
@385
Thanks for the response, EricaP. We had a long weekend of talking between kid events, errands, etc. and she wants to first get back to where we were, then go from there. Sex was great in the past and I, too, want the connection we used to have. Above all else, I just need to know that it’s sincere. Is that too much to ask? On a side note, she must think I’m crazy because I keep citing Dan’s podcasts and articles. Although I’ve only recently started following SL, I’m pretty sure Dan is the most well-rounded sexual therapist on earth. Honest, direct, fair and…well, you can enter your favorite adjective here. Having a fanbase like his, with message boards to support it, is just icing on the cake. It feels healthy and right to be able to just TALK about sex. I actually plan to show her this thread when the time’s right. This site may be a lot to take in all at once. It should be a great conversation start, don’t you think? 😉
@386
Good point Canuck. I don’t even know where to begin. Can you provide recommendations?
@387 – I still don’t understand what she means. “She wants to first get back to where we were.”
Um, several days & nights have gone by — what happens if you hug her and then caress her breast. does she pull away? If she wants to start having sex again, and so do you, then wouldn’t it be reasonable to actually have some sex? Can you explain more why this is still at the level of talking, rather than physical interaction?
And not to step on Canuck’s toes, but here’s the list she gave me a year ago:
**************LIST FROM CANUCK*************
These are my favourite “field guides” to men’s feelings:
“The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Dr. Laura Schlessinger
“Men, Love & Sex” by David Zinczenko
“What Men Won’t Tell You But Women Need to Know” by Bob Berkowitz
“How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It” by Patrica Love and Steven Stosny
“I’m Not In The Mood” by Judith Reichman
Well, Erica, I have become a bit of a smut *connoisseur*, and judging by the subject material, I’m not the only one who gets turned on by kilts and vampires:
Gena Showalter: The Nymph King (if she likes that, then The Darkest Kiss and The Darkest Pleasure)
Kresley Cole: Kiss of a Demon King (hottest!, but the whole series is good)
J.R. Ward: Dark Lover (there is a whole series after this one, good too)
Sherrilyn Kenyon: Fantasy Lover, Night Pleasures, etc. (huge series)
Larissa Ione: Pleasure Unbound, rest of the series is great!
Shannon K. Butcher: Burning Alive, Finding the Lost
Karen Marie Moning: Kiss of the Highlander, The Dark Highlander
(liked these the best, but they’re all worth reading)
Lora Leigh: Wildcard, etc.
Just so you know, there tends to be a rather sizable population of incredibly good-looking, 6’4″ men in these books who have paint-roller abs and rather deadly cunnilingus skills….so, not really bearing much resemblance to any universe I’ve experienced, but it does the trick!
EricaP, cool, thank you! I would have been starting from scratch with that list. Although “Dr. Laura” is an appalling homophobe, she does a good job in that book detailing the way men see and process continued rejection from their wives, mainly because the book works off of a bunch of letters men have sent to her over the years.
As far as the sexy books, I’d add Emma Holly to that list. I suppose it’s stretching the truth to call this “erotica,” as that suggests something a bit more erudite, but PATH, these books get the job done in terms of getting someone to think about sex again.
PATH, for me, reading through the SL archives was possibly the single biggest mind-changing, eye-opening experience I’ve ever had regarding the broad spectrum of relationships. For all the teasing we do here, Dan really deserves the Nobel prize of sex, or something. Your wife could read slog, or she could also read through his book, which covers the years before the archives, I think? And when you start trying to get things going again, keep it light. No one does well if they feel like they’re about to have sex for England…and my personal advice, gleaned from a talk show years ago on how to start having sex again after birth: “Inebriation and lubrication”, and of course, I’d add one of those smutty books to that mix.
Good luck!!!
*sorry, I meant “your wife could read through the SL archives”, not slog. (Mustn’t type and make PB&J sandwiches at the same time… 🙂
@388 (EricaP)
Good question (why are we still talking about it and not actually doing it?). To simplify, she hasn’t initiated intimacy. There is a bigger problem here than just having sex. I’m concerned about the fact that she says she’s interested in intimacy, but hasn’t actually initated any intimate discussion or touching for over two years. Before we do ANYTHING at this point, I’d like to understand why. Thus, all the talking.
On a side note, thank you (Canuck) for the book recommendations. I’m going to review the list with my wife, see what she thinks. I really like the idea of reading to each other in bed. 😉
Also, just out of curiosity, does the title “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” seem condescending to anyone else? Doesn’t it imply that men are either 1.) dogs or 2.) babies?
PATH: “does the title “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” seem condescending to anyone else? Doesn’t it imply that men are either 1.) dogs or 2.) babies?”
Yeah, very condescending. Dr. Laura really is an awful person in a lot of ways, but there are some very worthwhile messages in that book. There is a bit of that vibe that you get from some people, the “FFF” thing (that all men need is Food, Flattery, and Fucking), which my husband finds incredibly demeaning, too, fwiw. If you can read it knowing that she does paint a simple picture of men (who, in my experience, are as nuanced and freakishly hard to understand as women supposedly are), but take away the good parts–and there are plenty of those–then it’s an eye-opening read. I just think that rarely do we read things from a man’s point of view, it’s almost always, “if you’re not getting sex, it’s because you aren’t helping your wife out enough, or being considerate enough,” you don’t often read about how the continued rejection makes men feel. It’s worthwhile for a woman to read that, and be chastened when she thinks about her own behaviour. Well, for me it was, anyway.
Re: the initmacy/no sex yet: Your wife may be saying that (that she wants intimacy) because she thinks it’s what you want/need to hear–she may be aware that you could walk if things don’t improve–but mentally/physically, she isn’t feeling it. Some questions I’d ask her: regardless of you, PATH, how does she see herself? How would she define herself? Does she primarily see herself as a mother? Does she think she’s sexy? Is she aware of other men looking at her when she goes out? I really do think that in these cases, a woman has to rediscover her own sexuality, and rediscover that feeling of other people finding her sexy in order to get those feelings back. I would also suggest that the women on these threads who are mothers, and who also still love sex, and never had a drought, have always seen themselves as sexual beings, that they managed to avoid that “mommy trap” where we stop seeing ourselves as women who enjoy sex. It’s a bit of a head game (no pun intended), and I think while you’re talking, you need to find out where she falls in that spectrum. If you’re feeling dowdy, it’s hard to envision yourself as a sex goddess 😉
And if she’s in her old mom clothes all the time – encourage her to buy something new and in a different style. I highly recommend throwing money at the problem (new clothes, sitters, a night at a hotel). Whatever you spend, it’ll be a bargain if it rekindles the spark and saves your marriage.
Addressing your point about how you’re still waiting for her to initiate intimacy – doesn’t it seem as if both of you are standing on principle, and that principle is going to destroy your marriage? Have you read the old story, “Get Up and Bar the Door”? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Up_and_…
Start having sex again, or at least massages, foot rubs, tongue-kisses, touching each other’s genitals, heavy petting… Once you remember that you want each other, then you can start working on the problem of how to encourage her to initiate more.
Hello, Ladies. It’s lovely to see you.
Hi Mr. J!
Well hello, Mr. J!! Glad I checked back in before heading off…have a good evening on Savage Love!
Thanks for hanging around, Canuck and EricaP, while the masses seem to have moved on to other topics. I find it both surprising and reassuring that the two last standing contributors are both female. On this topic I sort of expected all of the women to flee. I do appreciate your advice throughout. It’s been consistently positive, balanced and future-focused.
So I wanted to let you know that I’ve disclosed to my wife about my writing into SL, asking that she both read all of the comments above and post an uncensored response. She seemed interested (yah!), so come back in a few days for an update on her perspective. 🙂
Wow – great! If she wants more attention, she could write directly to Dan. He loves running follow-ups.
Conversely, if either of you wants someone to bounce ideas around with, I’m at EricaPSavage@gmail.com.
Oh, that’s great, PATH! I’ll definitely check back. Also, if you post and we don’t see it, make a comment on the Morning News on Slog, and we’ll run right over…!
Canuck, dumb question, but what do you mean “make a comment on the Morning News on Slog”? I get that SLOG is Savage Love’s Blog, but where do I navigate to post a comment? And how will that make it easier for you to find? Sorry, just starting to learn my way around on the site.
Thanks for sharing your email, EricaP. That’s awfully brave of you. Hopefully Gmail’s spam filtering is as strong as they say it is or your Inbox will be full within hours.
I know, I thought that the first time I posted it. I braced for the onslaught. But actually, only the people I wanted to write me have ever written me. Weird. It’s not my regular email address, of course.
On Slog (listed under Blogs in the menu at the top of the screen), the first post each day is the Morning News. Click on comments, under the post — that’s where non-staff people, regular people like you, me and Canuck, can post any important news we think might interest other Slog-readers.
I’ve always avoided jumping into the fray, and you’re already in good hands with EricaP and Canuck– they’re great folks and very insightful. But since it seems like it’s only us here now, I’ll weigh in a bit in case it’s any help.
I’ve been clawing my way out of a similar situation for the past two years. It hasn’t been easy and things aren’t yet fully back on track, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. But solid progress has been made, so I thought I might share a few things that did and did not work.
Just for background, my wife and I had been married for ten years before we starting trying to have kids. We wanted two, we had two, I got a vasectomy. My wife’s libido flatlined after the second child and never recovered.
Trying to initiate sexual touching or trying to discuss the situation would cause her to become intensely depressed. She flatly refused the suggestion of counseling (bad experiences with counselors in her past). So I stopped initiating sex, and stopped discussing the situation, in hopes that her libido would eventually recover on its own. A year and a half later, we still hadn’t had sex.
At that point I said “We need to work on this or it’s going to cost us our marriage, and we love each other too much to let that happen.”
We opened a bottle of wine and spent a long time trying to sort out all the related issues. At least in her case (some may apply to your situation, others may not), her issues were A) body issues– not feeling sexy made her uninterested in having sex, B) role issues– the ‘mom’ role had taken over to the exclusion of all else, C) physical changes– her body responded differently than before giving birth, things that used to feel good no longer did, her sexual interests and focus had changed, and D) opportunities for sexual intimacy seemed to be limited to after the kids went to bed (at which point we’re both exhausted).
So here are ten observations from the long road back:
1. People tend to discount general compliments from long-term partners. Saying “You’re sexy” has very little impact on body image / self-esteem. Very specific compliments (“you have tremendously sexy legs”, “you should wear this particular dress, you look stunning in it”, “when your eyes are smiling like that, you’re irresistible”, etc) often get past that filter and make a difference.
2. Take her shopping to pick out lots of sexy but comfortable underwear, so she can wear sexy underwear any time. The act of picking it out together is bonding and sets the tone, and later she’ll feel sexy while wearing it. Throw out all the grandma-underwear if possible.
3. Find ways to have dates and other uninterrupted together time. Try to spend a high percentage of that time NOT talking about the kids. Talk about each others interests.
4. On that note, facilitate each other having time for hobbies, friends, and outside interests. It’s too easy for your life to become all about the kids, and you’re both more interesting and alluring partners if you have your own identities and can talk about something you don’t both already know.
5. When you’re bottling up frustrations, even in the interests of helping your partner, that can eventually bleed through into coming across as sullen, brusque, irritable, etc. Resentment comes through and that’s *not* sexy. Odds aren’t bad that she feels like she’s being attacked as the bad guy for not doing something you weren’t asking her to do and for not feeling like initiating sex with a sullen, brusque, irritable person. So you both have to genuinely get past feeling like the other person is some kind of an opponent and find ways to feel like you’re on the same team. “We are working together to find ways to get more sexual intimacy back into our relationship.” If you’re not both genuinely bought in to fixing things and not looking to blame the other, it’s not going to work.
6. If you don’t have a lock on your bedroom door, get one. Train the kids that sometimes Mom and Dad need some time to be alone and rest and not be disturbed, short of an emergency. This can allow for the occasional quick daytime tryst. Also try waking up before the kids to fool around.
7. All the time, and especially early in the process, spend a lot of time touching in intimate ways explicitly *without* the expectation of things proceeding on to sex. I’d usually initiate this by saying “Let’s just cuddle– no sex” and then curling up together to watch a movie or read books. Lots of body contact. Maybe an arm around her back, wrapped around to cup and hold a breast while you read. It not universally true, but some women take much longer to get into a sexual mood than men do, so if she feels like any time you touch her intimately you’re angling for sex and she’s not yet in the mood, she’ll react negatively. If she gets a lot of intimate touch without the expectation for sex, she’ll likely see it as pleasurable and be in a sexier mood later. Plus, having intimate touch feel familiar and comfortable will make the transition to actually having sex after so long without it less jarring. Trust me, the first time will feel like you’re trying to have sex with a stranger. It’s creepy and off-putting.
8. Especially when you’re just beginning to resume having sex, the word “thank you” anywhere close to sex is somewhere between a bear-trap and a land-mine. “That felt wonderful”, “I had a great time last night”, “You really drove me wild this morning” are all fine. “Thank you” can be interpreted all kinds of wrong ways. Just avoid it. Trust me.
9. People’s physical responses and sexual tastes change over time, even moreso in the absence of a shared sexual routine. You both have to recognize that re-initiating things is going to involve a LOT of communication and discovery. Frustrating as it is, you have to treat it a bit like you’ve just started dating again. You need LOTS of communication, LOTS of attention to body language, and NO assumptions based on the past. You’ll also want to both keep a good sense of humor about it all. It’s not a bad bet that you’ll discover that some things you used to do before and loved don’t rock one or the other of your worlds anymore. If you’re brave and mutually agreeable to a ‘no-fault for respectful experimentation’ rule, it’s worth trying some things you used to dislike. Sometimes they turn out to be hot now.
10. Be clear from the start that while sex is pleasurable, what you’re missing is that deeper feeling of sexual connection with her. I think sometimes the lower-libido partner thinks “if my partner is craving sex and I’m not, they can just masturbate”. But that’s like saying “You have a box of granola bars in your cubicle, so why do you keep asking me to go on lunch dates with you?” Help her understand that not being desired by a sexual partner makes you feel like an undesirable, unattractive person. Let her know that being her lover is part of your identity and an important part of how you define yourself. And then just listen. A lot.
Hope this helps!
Henry Paris:
Thank you for that articulate comment. Wonderful advice! Please don’t be shy in the future.
Mr. and Mrs. PATH:
I’m cheering for you. I, like Henry Paris, have experienced similar troubles and am working with my wife to improve our marriage. Thank you in advance for anything you have to share, Mrs. PATH.
Henry Paris, those are wonderful insights. You mentioned things I hadn’t thougt of, but once I read it, thought, “yes, that’s true!” Glad to see there are enough survivors, however battle-scarred, of the mommy drought, that it can give others hope.
@403 – I sent your wonderful list (with your Slog name) to Dan’s email address, in hopes that he will publicize it further. Hope he does – that’s great advice.
As someone who is/has been in a similar situation as Henry Paris, PATH, etc. reading through these comments is alternately comforting and – to be quite honest – depressing.
In an attempt to rise above the latter, what I can say *helped* in my situation – but certainly hasn’t been a cure-all – is that notion of open communication. I don’t mean to beat up on PATH but I think he made a misstep in letting things fester for so long but hey, I probably tried the same thing too…just not for a year!
Every few months, my wife and I have what she calls “The Conversation” and it’s probably the absolutely most painful thing we have to discuss as a couple since it involves us really putting a lot of hurt and resentment on the table in regards to the state of our sex life.
My resentment: sexual intimacy isn’t a priority to her but it is to me and I feel like the other ways in which I address her needs is creating a lack of parity in the relationship where her needs > my needs even though I’ve made my needs quite plain (i.e. because we’ve had The Conversation many times before).
Her resentment: that she feels this constant burden of my expectations and that, as more time goes by between sex, the stakes/tension get higher and that makes her feel anxious and that anxiety easily converts into resentment.
And the thing is: I think both our positions are reasonable. I can understand why she’s resentful to have to be constantly worrying about, “has it been too long? Is he spooning me because he just wants to be close or is he trying to initiate?” On the other hand, I think I’m being reasonable in wanting to feel loved and desired by my wife more than once every few weeks.
I’ll wager this scenario sounds familiar to others here.
So anyway, we’re still working towards a solution. The Conversation actually helps in the short run. At the very least, after having it and leaving ourselves emotionally raw and exposed, it has the (semi perverse) effect of kickstarting her libido for that occasion. I chalk it up to some kind of sexual “fight or flee” response but I also think it’s because The Conversation is, by its very nature, incredible intense and intimate and even if it initially brings up all kinds of bad feelings, the intensity of the moment can translate into a desire for “good” feelings. And usually, for the next couple of months following the Conversation, we’re both more accommodating to one another: I try not to pressure, she tries to initiate (or at least, be receptive).
But inevitably (so far), we haven’t figured out how to maintain a permanent state of mutual grace on this and a few months down the line, things will spiral into a downturn that will result again in…The Conversation.
I don’t know if this will be a permanent state of affairs. I don’t know if this will end with the dissolution of our marriage (which I don’t want) or me finding affections elsewhere (which she doesn’t want). Things are not at that precipice yet, thankfully. But we both know that’s where things may be headed if we don’t actively work and talk to one another.
I should add: we’re in the process of finding a couple’s counselor since I think both of us are holding onto particular stances that can’t be resolved through just the Conversation. I’m not confident that a third person can help us fix this but at this point, it’s worth a shot. It helps that we’re both therapy-friendly however.
Anyways, to stop rambling, I would simply tell PATH that I think you’re doing the right thing in just talking about this openly with your wife, even if it brings up all kinds of bad feelings in the short run. Those conversations may not prove to be a cure-all but at the very least, it suggests that the two of you are trying to work in good faith with one another. That’s crucial to whatever path the two of you end up going along.
I would also suggest to try to get into a joint counseling session on the sooner end. For each of your to have your own therapist may be useful for your own personal issues but speaking from experience, it won’t do enough to help bridge the sexual divide for any number of reasons, least of all that what you’re telling your therapist is probably things you should be telling one another as it pertains to your sexual dysfunction.
As someone who is/has been in a similar situation as Henry Paris, PATH, etc. reading through these comments is alternately comforting and – to be quite honest – depressing.
In an attempt to rise above the latter, what I can say *helped* in my situation – but certainly hasn’t been a cure-all – is that notion of open communication. I don’t mean to beat up on PATH but I think he made a misstep in letting things fester for so long but hey, I probably tried the same thing too…just not for a year!
Every few months, my wife and I have what she calls “The Conversation” and it’s probably the absolutely most painful thing we have to discuss as a couple since it involves us really putting a lot of hurt and resentment on the table in regards to the state of our sex life.
My resentment: sexual intimacy isn’t a priority to her but it is to me and I feel like the other ways in which I address her needs is creating a lack of parity in the relationship where her needs > my needs even though I’ve made my needs quite plain (i.e. because we’ve had The Conversation many times before).
Her resentment: that she feels this constant burden of my expectations and that, as more time goes by between sex, the stakes/tension get higher and that makes her feel anxious and that anxiety easily converts into resentment.
And the thing is: I think both our positions are reasonable. I can understand why she’s resentful to have to be constantly worrying about, “has it been too long? Is he spooning me because he just wants to be close or is he trying to initiate?” On the other hand, I think I’m being reasonable in wanting to feel loved and desired by my wife more than once every few weeks.
I’ll wager this scenario sounds familiar to others here.
So anyway, we’re still working towards a solution. The Conversation actually helps in the short run. At the very least, after having it and leaving ourselves emotionally raw and exposed, it has the (semi perverse) effect of kickstarting her libido for that occasion. I chalk it up to some kind of sexual “fight or flee” response but I also think it’s because The Conversation is, by its very nature, incredible intense and intimate and even if it initially brings up all kinds of bad feelings, the intensity of the moment can translate into a desire for “good” feelings. And usually, for the next couple of months following the Conversation, we’re both more accommodating to one another: I try not to pressure, she tries to initiate (or at least, be receptive).
But inevitably (so far), we haven’t figured out how to maintain a permanent state of mutual grace on this and a few months down the line, things will spiral into a downturn that will result again in…The Conversation.
I don’t know if this will be a permanent state of affairs. I don’t know if this will end with the dissolution of our marriage (which I don’t want) or me finding affections elsewhere (which she doesn’t want). Things are not at that precipice yet, thankfully. But we both know that’s where things may be headed if we don’t actively work and talk to one another.
I should add: we’re in the process of finding a couple’s counselor since I think both of us are holding onto particular stances that can’t be resolved through just the Conversation. I’m not confident that a third person can help us fix this but at this point, it’s worth a shot. It helps that we’re both therapy-friendly however.
Anyways, to stop rambling, I would simply tell PATH that I think you’re doing the right thing in just talking about this openly with your wife, even if it brings up all kinds of bad feelings in the short run. Those conversations may not prove to be a cure-all but at the very least, it suggests that the two of you are trying to work in good faith with one another. That’s crucial to whatever path the two of you end up going along.
I would also suggest to try to get into a joint counseling session on the sooner end. For each of your to have your own therapist may be useful for your own personal issues but speaking from experience, it won’t do enough to help bridge the sexual divide for any number of reasons, least of all that what you’re telling your therapist is probably things you should be telling one another as it pertains to your sexual dysfunction.
@rustywarwick, yes, another mainstay of the mommy drought–the Conversation. Amazing how universal these issues truly are. It sounds like what you’re looking for is a way to maintain the momentum you get after the Conversation. I’d suggest your wife needs to find a way to feel sexual herself, not just because she’s afraid of losing you, or because she feels like it’s expected. It might be worth exploring what turns her on, regardless of you, because I think that’s important. Does she read erotica? Watch porn? Do things that remind her she’s a sexual person, like, as Henry Paris said, ditching the granny panties in favour of lace? Those little things may add up to her feeling sexy on a daily basis, which may be what’s missing. I think for most men, they want sex, and while they’d rather have it with their wives, they’ll have it elsewhere if necessary. Women who’ve lost their libido need to get back to that feeling of just wanting sex period, not because they feel like it’s part of a “deal.” Also, please make sure you find a couples counselor who is male-friendly, I’ve read about a number of people who’ve had bad experiences where the husband gets blamed for everything. Good (continued) luck!
@rustywarwick
I hate to add to your depression. My hopefulness varies from day to day. My wife and I have been through the same pattern of conversation coupled with temporary bump in frequency. But it never lasts because she just doesn’t want sex more than 10 times a year. So today I’m feeling pessimistic and I think divorce is inevitable because she will never accept non-monogamy. Sorry to be a downer. I hope you have better luck.
I’m the mother of three month old twins. While I wasn’t allowed to have sex for 6 weeks after the birth, I’ve had sex with my husband regularly since then. Mostly initiated (though eagerly received) by me! Why? Because there is nothing as sexy as a man who really partners you in baby care! He never hands over a baby because they are fussy or needs their diaper changed. He never fails to clean, nurture, organize when he gets the chance. He’ll rock a baby to sleep, then stand up and stretch and look so appealing that I just have to jump him! I think he should give classes on satisfying a wife-and helping her retain her sex drive post-children.
um…”I’ve tried reassuring her that the biggest turn on for men is an actively interested partner, not appearance” – well that would piss me way the hell off, especially if I were insecure about my appearance (who isn’t?). Hope you didn’t phrase it that way to her.
But yeah, I agree with whoever said you need to start things rolling. That whole thing where you waited two years to see what she would do? She was probably assuming you had lost interest in sex. Or specifically sex with her. Which is pretty ego damaging, as you know from feeling the same way for the same reason. It was also probably the most effective way of destroying what was left of her libido you could possibly have found. Don’t pull that stupid shit again. She’s given you the green light by saying she’s interested in more intimacy. That doesn’t mean sex right away necessarily but it means more than nothing. Keeping on waiting for her to initiate when she finds it difficult to believe you are genuinely attracted to her is a losing game for you both. I personally don’t really feel any sort of sex drive unless there is a man/men interested in me. Doesn’t even necessarily need to be a guy I’m interested in as long as he isn’t creepy (which probably explains my fondness for construction workers and way out of line night janitors). I need at least one guy out there who makes it crystal clear that he is blatantly interested (while not being threatening) to make me feel sexually female. Excessive pressure is a turn off, but genuine interest is quite the opposite. Please encourage her to write in. It’s hard to advise without her side of things. Good luck with everything for both your sakes and update us if you can!
@411 – you might just be lucky not to have gotten the hormonal slug of doom/post partum depression. Also, you might be young and/or pretty early on in this relationship. And have a damn fine man who has the time to help out. All things in your favor most aren’t lucky enough to get in quite that combination. The post pregnancy libido death is common to the point that it’s expected – unless you are in your early 20’s or something in which case you are likely immune.
@398 – of course it’s the women who stick with this thread – you don’t think we don’t have an innate horror of ending up in this situation ourselves? That we’re the ones with no libido in a sexless marriage for the rest of our lives? It’s so much more likely to be the woman, god help me if this ever happens to me… Well, it won’t if I can help it, and I’d open it I hope, but who wants to be in this situation on either side? No one! It’s torture all around.
@412-414 You should register. A lot of people have unregistered comments “off” for troll management, and will miss seeing your contribution.
@410 Can’t argue with the frustrations of the day-to-day hope variation. Ironically it’s almost easier to go through a day in which you know there’s *no* chance than those frustrating “it *could* be today” days that almost never work out.
Anyway, it seems to be far more common for it to take a few years of hard struggle with lots of variation to get back to what you had before than for it to switch back on rapidly. It took two years to get from “nothing at all” to “once a month trending toward twice a month” for us. Not claiming I’m happy with the latter, but ignoring the occasional variation things are still headed in the right direction and it’s worlds better than before. If we can claw our way back to ‘once-a-week-ish’ or better, it will do wonders for my sanity.
If you love your partner and things are headed toward right, it’s worth running the marathon instead of giving up after a sprint. But I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t one of the most difficult and grueling trips we’ve ever made together.
@411 I have no doubt whatsoever that in some/many cases the husband doesn’t help out enough around the house or with the baby. And I absolutely understand that the wife shouldering disproportionate amounts of the new workload would leave her much less inclined to find time for sex. Those husbands should step up their participation as a matter of spousal responsibility and human decency, whether it leads to sex or not.
But I’ve known many a husband (myself included) who was up five times a night with the baby, changed no shortage of dirty diapers, and otherwise did their fair share or more who still ended up with a spouse who was uninterested in sex for months or years. It doesn’t seem to happen to every couple (I think the idea that young couples and recently married couples often weather the storm better may have some truth to it), but it’s not uncommon.
I think most of the folks still commenting at this point are mostly just trying to figure out ways to salvage things when they get to that point.
You know, clearly there are a lot of couples struggling with this and mostly what we hear is comments from those who dodged that bullet and those who are still struggling. Would love to hear from folks who have stared into that particular abyss and successfully made the journey back.
My own advice is a bit weak because while we’ve made tremendous progress, we’ve still got a long ways to go.
So I sent e-mail to Dan asking if he could run a web extra soliciting stories and advice from couples who have had more unequivocal success. Keeping my fingers crossed that he’ll do so. It would be nice to read a column full of success stories and good advice. Might give hope for better days ahead.
@416 “But I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t one of the most difficult and grueling trips we’ve ever made together. “
Yes. Exactly.
@416 Henry Paris
“it’s almost easier to go through a day in which you know there’s *no* chance than those frustrating ‘it *could* be today’ days”
Spot-on there. I find it impossible to maintain a zero expectation level, but it helps when I can. It’s doubly upsetting to not only be denied, but to “get caught hoping.” It’s like, fuck, I can’t believe I did it again. The problem is I know deep down that there never truly is total hopelessness. Hope can always creep in when you know that.
For those of you just catching up, no I can’t just walk away from the person I love more that I can imagine ever loving anyone else after 16 years and with a child still in the house.
@418 – Do you mean you want to hear from guys? Because Canuck and I are both saying that our marriages have made it through the crisis.
@420 – You keep saying that the kid is part of why you’re staying… I would hate to hear that from my husband. Yes, it’s convenient to live in the same house while raising kids together, but if you think you would be better matched with someone else, you should be spending your time trying to find that other person. Life is short; find your bliss.
Hello there,
It’s me, Mrs. PATH. Thanks for the support and questions and thought provoking comments you have shared over the last month.
I can tell that much of it helped my husband in finally talking with me and understanding my point of view—which is complicated.
PATH doesn’t like it when I say that word, “complicated” or at least he used to balk at it. Lots of things in the last few years have contributed to this downward spiral. In addition to all the challenges those of us with kids experience, we both had a change in jobs, intense in-law issues, deaths of parents, other stressors that made me think it wasn’t our intimacy that was driving his depression/anger. I knew it was a problem, I just thought it was a symptom of something bigger. Mid-life crisis? Or at least I didn’t want to admit it was us. When he started pulling away, I thought he was trying to deal with other pain in his life. I should have clued in when he didn’t want me to touch him or would flinch or not respond even to a hug. But by then, I was lost in my own little pity party of “my husband isn’t attracted to me anymore; shit. He doesn’t even like me”.
So, I began avoiding him. Big time. Queen of distractions, to-do lists, chores, taking care of needy friends, volunteering, and of course playing, reading and tending to kid stuff. Also, I do work, from home mostly, but times when I have meetings outside the house, and PATH has kid duty. Especially last year, we didn’t create any time alone for each other. I tried to plan a couple of weekends away, but he said no. He said it would be more fun with the kids. I was hurt, but relieved, too, I have to admit, because I didn’t want to fight or live in uncomfortable silence.
I am a champ at filling the void: with food, plans with friends, planning birthday parties, shopping, working at night. I tried to get what was missing with PATH from other people. Thinking that when he was ready, he’d let me in again. He got increasingly angry and distant to the point of ignoring me and not making eye contact. I would plan as much as I could to be with other people so that he would respond to me when I talked or touched him. At least he wouldn’t pull away from me in public.
What is wrong with me that I didn’t bring all of this up to him? I’m so embarrassed looking back that I didn’t say something.
I know that PATH doesn’t feel as close to me when we aren’t having sex; I don’t feel like having sex when I don’t feel close to him. Which comes first? I made the mistake of saying that out loud to him once, and it totally backfired on me. He pulled away further.
I wish that long ago someone had explained that to me. We have been together for such a long time and neither one of us is good at playing games. The fact that we haven’t really communicated on an intimate level for years is the biggest game of all and one we both lost.
One thing PATH didn’t disclose is that we have been together since we were 20 and he is the only man I have ever been intimate with. I know, I know. Or maybe I don’t! Our sex life in the past was pretty predictable, not adventurous, but enjoyable. I hardly ever initiated sex, but even when I thought I wasn’t in the mood, once we started, I quickly got in the mood and reached orgasm nearly every time.
Once we had kids, and I was less interested from pure exhaustion, he didn’t make a big deal out of me not wanting to. He never pushed the issue, and like an idiot, I thought he was losing some interest, too. I know that he was being caring and respectful in the short-term. Neither of us saw this coming. But in the long run, talking about it earlier would have really made a difference. I wish that long ago someone had explained that to me. We have been together for such a long time and neither one of us is good at playing games. The fact that we haven’t really communicated on an intimate level for years is the biggest game of all and one we both lost.
This blog, these books, these videos are a huge learning experience for me–things I see in the movies. I’m not a prude, and this stuff does turn me on, but I thought that it was for younger people and didn’t think we really had it in us
In the last week, after a few more decent arguments, miscommunication, and me avoiding him, I finally just got into bed naked. It was a little awkward, at first, but we got over it and enjoyed each other like we haven’t in such a long time. I forgot how much I like the smell and warmth of his skin, the sounds and the secret between us afterward. We have made love several times since then and have been talking about our sexuality in ways that still make me blush sometimes. I even got online to find a vibrator, as I’ve never had one, but was overwhelmed and ended up not buying anything. Then a few days later FedEx arrived with some unmarked boxes. Yep. PATH took the time to do some research and ordered a couple. Wow! Why didn’t someone tell me about this sooner?
We are reading the book, Passionate Marriage, together, and it is helping to spark some good conversation about how complicated all of this can be. It is makes me a little nervous, but I feel mostly safe with PATH when we talk about it. My only fear is that there may be a “test” somewhere in the future that I won’t know I’m taking and that I’ll fail. What if I don’t initiate sex often enough? What if I don’t take enough risks? What if, what if? He assures me that I don’t need to worry; just be myself. But I’m discovering I’m not sure who my sexual self is, and what if we aren’t compatible after all?
One of the best about all of this is the greatly reduced tension in our household. Ahhhhhh. We have been touching and holding hands and kissing even in front of our kids. I hope it all leads to an upward spiral with our relationship and sex lives, too. So far, it seems to be doing just that. I realize it has only been a little over a week, but it feels so much better! I refuse to go back!
I hope this lends some insight to our story. I’m sure I haven’t covered it all. Thanks again to all of you for your time and comments. Some were pretty tough to read, but insightful nonetheless. Any more candid comments are welcome.
Cheers,
Mrs. PATH
@422 – Mrs PATH-
Thank you SO much for filling us in on your point of view and giving us an update on what’s happened since PATH sent in his question! That all sounds like tremendously good news, or at least potentially so.
Your side of the story does help explain quite a few things and, as always, points out just how vital “early and often” communication is. Still thinking through some of the things you’ve said and may have more to say later, but I’m glad you took the time to respond and that things are improving for both of you!
@421- EricaP: Ack, sorry, no! Wasn’t meaning “guys-only” at all, and not at all discounting your and Canuck’s survival stories. In fact, hearing things from the female partners’ points of view is often much more useful. Those of us on the guys-side often sound like an echo-chamber, so hearing the other side of the story (much as with MRS Path) is often MUCH more illuminating. Just looking for more stories of how people got from here to there, as I know not everyone is going to find success along the same path.
Wow, wow, Mrs. PATH! Thanks so much for sharing all that. It’s amazing to me that we live in such a sex-filled society, media-wise, and yet those intimate conversations between two people who should be able to say anything to each other are often so hard to have! (Been there, got multiple T-shirts…) And I agree, I think understanding the different ways men and women see sex and intimacy should be a topic that’s discussed much more than it is. And fwiw, for those of us “survivors” here on slog, just speaking for myself, you have to keep talking. It’s not like a magic pill, and you’re okay from that day forward. There is still negotiating and navigating to do, even after you think you have it figured out…
@422 Mrs. PATH
Thank you very much for your comment. I’m cheering for you both! It sounds like underneath your troubles you were able to find what was lost, or at least see that it’s there to be regained. I think it makes all the difference to actually have the desire for sex within you. Hopefully that will continue to be the case.
@421 EricaP
Yes, it’s not a good thing for any spouse to hear but sometimes it’s the truth. To me, being a father and a man means staying if it’s humanly possible. If the house was on fire I would walk in and get them no matter what the consequence for myself.
My wife and I create a loving atmosphere for him. I know that all he sees is that we love each other and support each other. He sees a father who he can depend on and who his mother can depend on. I would be devastated to ruin that even if I have cause to do so.
@422 – Mrs. PATH – thanks for writing! So glad you two have found your way back to each other! I loved this: “I forgot how much I like the smell and warmth of his skin, the sounds and the secret between us afterward.”
And this: “what if we aren’t compatible after all?” – I’m there with you. It’s really scary. But that’s life, right? What if I open up to him, and he leaves? What if I open up to him, and he dies? But if you never make yourself vulnerable, then you guarantee that you don’t get the connection you want.
Canuck @424 is exactly right “you have to keep talking…there is still negotiating and navigating to do, even after you think you have it figured out.” It’s the hardest thing in the world, but there’s no way around it for most of us.
@426 – Would you want your kid to make that same choice, in his life?
Since this type of question seems to come up on Savage Love a lot—frustrated husband wants to have sex but wife has lost interest in sex completely and doesn’t understand why her husband hasn’t either—does anybody have any idea WHY? Is this more of a physiological problem where some women naturally lose interest in sex after menopause, or is it more of a cultural issue where women accept the idea that the only purpose for sex is procreation. Or is it both?
@428 – have you read the comments? It’s not about menopause, this happens when people are in their 30s/40s. Sometimes, the sex wasn’t so amazing for the woman to begin with, so when she is tired in mid-life, it just seems like another chore.
Also, people feel sexy when someone see them as sexy. As Henry_Paris said, often people tune out any generic compliments from their partners, so they may not believe they are still sexually attractive.
PATH, you are lucky in such a wife. I don’t know if I would have handled having to read this whole thread if I were her with anything close to such an open mind and good nature. And thank you, Mrs. PATH, for writing – it’s really scary to challenge what you are used to, even if what you are used to isn’t really what you want or need. I hope I can be as brave at overcoming my own problems.
And as for your letter, you said:
“I know that PATH doesn’t feel as close to me when we aren’t having sex; I don’t feel like having sex when I don’t feel close to him. Which comes first?”
I learned that from this thread – that generally men need the sex to feel close to someone, and women need to feel close to someone in order to need the sex – I knew the last part but not the first. These are hard things to learn from the people you care about (easier to get and hear from strangers, oddly enough), and it seems like so many people fall into this endless spiral of frustration and misunderstanding. I am glad you are working your way out of it and things are off to such a great start.
You also said:
“But I’m discovering I’m not sure who my sexual self is, and what if we aren’t compatible after all?”
Well, first of all I’m pretty sure he’s just delighted that you’ve got a sexual self! What shape that will take for you isn’t something to be scared of – if you were into some seriously kinky stuff that is so frightening he’s likely to run for the hills I’m pretty sure you’d have had an inkling before now. Everything else can be worked out one way or another. I’m sure he’d be pretty sad if you throttled back your full sexual identity to something tame and non-threatening just so you could better accommodate what you think his needs might be. You have to keep in mind he may not know what his sexual limits are either – it’s not just you but him too that has been having the same sort of sex (or not) for the past two decades. Everything from here on out of a sexual nature is an improvement, and not something to be scared of but exciting. Think of all the potential you have for joy! (and how well the vibrator purchase went!). He’s lucky enough to get to be there with you through this, and you are lucky enough to have someone you trust to be there with you.
There is no test you can fail. You’ll initiate sex as often as you want it – and now that you and he can talk about why you both want sex, or not, how you both feel about it, all of that, if you stop wanting sex again you’ll both be able to work on why and help each other fix it. What if you don’t take enough risks? What risks do you need to be taking other than talking to your husband about how you really feel? That’s the riskiest thing, and you’re already doing it, and doing it well from the sound of your letter. If you think you need to take sexual risks – I’m not exactly sure what that means but yeah that does sound a little scary. Maybe you could explain?
What if you aren’t compatible? Well, it sounds like things are going well now, which is a good start. Women tend to find out what they need sexually later than men, and needs can change over time too. As you get more sexually confident, you’ll know what you need. If it goes beyond what he is interested in or able to do with you, you guys will have to work out how to get those needs met within the bounds of the marriage. But you just got a vibrator this week. I don’t think you’re going to be demanding a tricked out BDSM dungeon for at least another couple of months, so don’t worry, he’ll have time to adjust. And I’m sure he’ll get used to the trio of loincloth clad waxed chest muscle bound poolboys you’ve hired to flex in attractive poses as well. It’s all right! Exploring your sexual self is a gradual process, you’ll work it out, your sex life and your everyday life will be better for it, and I’m sure he’s delighted to be in on it. He says don’t worry – I say don’t worry. You keep on working things out between you and you’ll be ok.
@427 EricaP
I don’t understand. Do you mean when he is older and married and in the same situation? If so then I think we all need to do the best we can. The fairy tales are not true. At least not all of them. Deep love isn’t sufficient to live happily ever after.
So if he finds himself in love and he’s built a life and a family then I would want him to make the decision that he can live with. Only the individual can decide what the balance of all that is. Is it worth saving the marriage? I can only tell you how I feel today, whether I can keep trying or whether I’ve reached my limit.
Mr. J @431 – Fair enough. I wouldn’t want my children to learn from my example that they should stay in an unsatisfying marriage … But as you’ve pointed out before, your options are complicated, and none of them are perfect or cost-free. So as you say here, all you can do is model for him someone who examines his life, and tries to make the best choices given the available knowledge.
Which is all any of us can do.
As someone who thus far has only been interested in the monogamous variety of committed, long-term relationships, I feel it is important to point out the difference between monogamy and fidelity. A lot of people seem to use these two words interchangeably, which in my opinion leads to a number of serious misconceptions about what a modern, GGG, open-minded and monogamous person like myself believes.
MONOGAMY: The practice of having only one mate a time, sexual or otherwise.
FIDELITY: Strict observance of promises, duties, etc; or, conjugal faithfulness.
By these definitions, a person engaged in a mutually agreed-upon open relationship is being 100% faithful to his partner when (s)he has sex with another person under those mutually agreed-upon terms. Fidelity is forfeited only when an explicit (or obviously implied) promise is broken. For the sake of your monogamous but poly-respecting readers, Dan, stop referring to monogamy and fidelity as if they are the same thing! It’s the GGG thing to do.
It’s not just people with kids.
I’ve been with my DW for 23 years – about 17 married. Sex was, once upon a time, playful, experimental for both of us, fun, orgasmic, and generally pretty good. I think we met the criteria, at that point, for Dan’s “GGG.” We both initiated
However, at some point, it slowed down. I love her dearly, we are still generally pretty affectionate in terms of speaking nicely to each other, but intimacy has somehow become taboo. We used to tease each other into bed with playful words, but for years, I’ve done so and she just doesn’t respond – gets an odd look on her face.
When we do have sex, which is relatively infrequent – maybe five or six times a year – all of the play is gone. I am a guy who actually *likes* foreplay – I like the way it can increase intimacy and intensity over time – but it’s right out. When we have sex now, it’s very quick – she basically wants me on top and wants me to get it over quickly.
I’m kind of baffled. I’m graduate-school-educated, well-behaved, clean, not horrible-looking, have nice breath, am responsible with money (I’m a fairly well-paid consultant – she wanted to manage our money and I’m fine with that. I earn it, she manages it, and does brilliantly – we’re pretty well-off for a couple in their high forties), and I treat her with consistent love and respect. I listen to her concerns and pay attention. We’ve long since split up the house chores equitably – the kitchen/fridge/vacuuming/bathrooms are mine, dusting & laundry are hers, and other things (fixing house stuff, mostly) we do together. We walk together – she’s training for a breast cancer three-day – and talk endlessly about books, about ideas, about whatever.
But it seems as if she’s put up a wall where sex is concerned. And it’s odd. Once in a while she’ll give me a pinch on the butt and whisper something salacious to mewhile we’re out and about, and I’ll respond, but if I try to translate that into anything more than a close hug or a good kiss – which last has suffered terribly, fwiw – it’s as if she doesn’t even hear me. She just blanks out and doesn’t respond.
When we’re having sex, she doesn’t seem to be there any longer.
I have considered various theories, and none of them reasonably hold water. I don’t think she’s having an affair, unless it’s really in the cracks of her life – she works in public and there’s not a lot of time, and it would be very old by now, at least six or seven years; I think I’d have seen something during that time. She does have chronic diseases (diabetes and mild asthma) but we’ve taken pains to structure things so that she’s isolated from things that trigger bad effects of both, and we ensure that she gets enough rest time to further buffer the effects of her illnesses. She works out as noted above, and that’s helped stave off neuropathy issues which might impede her enjoyment of touch.
I don’t think she has childhood abuse issues. This has been going on well before she entered perimenopause. She’s successful at her work and esteemed highly by people, so self-esteem is probably not part of the picture.
She does watch a lot of TV and spend a bunch of time on the Internet. I don’t watch TV (just find a lot of it) but yeah, I use the internet, too, and we’ll chat and lots of kind words go across the network. And she has her places and I have mine; over the time of the Internet, we’ve respected each other’s privacy.
….and we still only have sex rarely.
It only happens when she feels like it.
When I try to initiate in any way – talk, touch, whatever – it just goes to /dev/null – it’s like it never occurred.
Playful sex is nonexistent. It’s become painful for me, because even when she initiates, she doesn’t seem to be present, to enjoy it. She hasn’t had an orgasm during sex for years; the only time is when she has me bring her off with my hands, which is quite rare now.
We’ve tried – for example, we’ve set off for vacations with the stated intent of having more sex, but it doesn’t happen. She’s tired. Or it’s a bad time. Or we can do it later because there’s this thing to do now.
We talk. We’ve talked about it. She’s been upfront with me – “My sex drive isn’t as strong as yours” – but the frequency has continued to drop like a stone. She’s said I’m not communicating – I don’t know how to communicate more. I listen to her, take interest in her, share my own feelings. I give her massages when she’s sore from training.
I love her desperately – her wise mind, her brilliant intellect, her big brown eyes, the delicate curve of her ears, her hair, her lovely face, her voice, and, trust me, the rest – but somehow it’s not registering with her.
And it’s breaking me. I tried for years to try to initiate things, and was turned down time and again, and eventually got discouraged. I still try time and again – admittedly far less than I used to – to no avail. I’ve tried to be positive about it because there’s little that’s better in this life than the lovemaking we had…..the memory of the feel of her hair on my face can make me smile, even now.
But I’ve gotten to the point where I’m becoming angry and resentful. We talk about it, we resolve to change, and when I try to bring it to fruition, to go beyond sensual touch into sexual touch, she freezes up. And I don’t know why, and can’t figure it out…..
I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to leave her, but I also don’t want to go without sex – or have only halting, awkward fumbling sex once in a while, at her exclusive prerogative – for the rest of my life.
If I could figure out what I’m doing wrong, I’d change it. I’ve examined everything under a microscope many times. And I’m evidently too thick to sort it.
So, thoughts and opinions when lines of communication are open but things don’t improve?
Thank you in advance for any ideas.
@434 hacka
Well, you’re far from alone in your situation, to which many of the comments in this thread can attest. Your situation sounds very much like PATH’s or any of a number of other folks here. It’s a common problem and the solutions tend to be hard won.
I was in a VERY similar situation to yours and I’ve made tremendous strides in the recent past and I posted some suggestions based on that in comment 403. I’d also suggest you read Mrs. PATH’s response @422.
She really hammered home for me the fact that once things have been going poorly for so long, you form a negative feedback loop. You don’t want to be the person who badgers your partner into sex, so you stop initiating and start resenting (even if you don’t mean to do so). That lack of initiating and resentment comes through to your partner– either overtly or subtly and your partner pulls *further* away as a defensive mechanism. Lather, rinse, repeat. It also points out that appearances can be deceiving and a partner who seems uninterested in sex may actually *want* an active sex life if you can find the way back together.
While my wife and I had made great strides (see my comment), we still weren’t where we wanted to be. Reading Mrs. PATH’s response prompted me to trust in the strength of our relationship and risk greater vulnerability in our communication and in my actions. I got a lot more open in communicating what I want, even at the risk of getting shot down. And my wife responded really positively. We’ve had discussions about things far outside of our comfort zone and it has been a learning experience for us both.
And while most ‘nice guys’ (which most of try to be) are socialized to go out of our way to be sensitive to our partner’s likes and dislikes and putting what they want first, it’s easy to go too far and become too passive. Sometimes even if something isn’t what your partner would say they want, they’ll be excited to come along for the ride if you’re sufficiently passionate about it and about them.
You DO want to wait until you’re past the resentment, solidly into the communication, and both on the same page about making things better. But sometimes being more aggressive (while still reading your partner to know if you need to slow down or step back) can be a big help. Getting thrown on the bed and taken is WAY sexier than being asked, so long as there’s trust, respect, and communication.
That’s my two-cents, though some of the others who’ve fought back from the brink (EricaP, Canuck and others are VERY good folks who have done the same) have their own insights you should read or solicit from them.
@Henry Paris: Thank you very much. I’ve read through the comments, and while they’re indeed wise and perceptive, none are speaking to me.
I am, to some extent, in despair. I’ve tried to communicate via every means I can think of – talking, continuing gentle touch – she does like that – telling her outright that I miss intimacy – not just physical intimacy, but emotional closeness – and she’ll agree that we need more intimacy, more sex (by which I do NOT just mean PIV intercourse).
But in the crunch, it doesn’t happen. I’m trying to decide whether to stay (materially comfortable but unsatisfying) or go (essentially starting over – I’ll probably leave her the house, etc).
I’ve already begun thinning my belongings, so that if I decide to leave, I’ll be able to carry most of my things away in one or two trips. I hate to throw away a quarter of a century, but I just don’t see a way to translate her agreement to work on things to actual practice.
@436 Hacka
Well, sounds you’re further down the spiral than most of us got. Have you actually said “I’m seriously considering leaving if this doesn’t improve?” so she gets how serious you are about this being a problem?
If you want both want to salvage things, couples counseling (with the right counselor– might ask the list for local recommendations) might help. But if you’re already thinning belongings to make moving out easier, I’m guessing you’re ready to move on. Good luck to you. Don’t be cruel in your departure, but do make sure she understands why you’re leaving– after two decades plus, she deserves an honest reason, kindly offered.
@Henry: I haven’t said that. I’m afraid to; I suppose I am afraid she’d take me up on it, and it would be a fairly great loss in terms of compatibility in other ways. Plus, it’s going on a quarter of a century together, and that’s terribly hard to abandon. We have no children, so there’s no damage done there.
I suppose I’ve envisioned this as a discussion where I finally say “We’ve tried and have agreed that there needs to be change, but change doesn’t happen – we’ve talked about it in depth, but there’s been no action. And we could talk and agree again, but I think it’s time that we realized that change isn’t going to happen, and that we need to scuttle the ship.”
It’s not something I particularly want to say, but agreement without action / follow-through is putting me in an untenable position. I won’t blow up and yell – I grew up in a house where that was the favored method of communicating, and I won’t do that – but I will assert myself ifI have to.
I’m not an awful human, I don’t think, for considering this. I don’t think she’s an awful human, either. If our intimacy worked the way it used to, I’d be delighted. I still enjoy her company a lot. But if it doesn’t work – that is, good communication fails – then as Jung said, my options are reduced to bad communication or no communication. And I vacillate regarding which of the two is better – conflict or loneliness.
@438 Hacka
If you haven’t put things in terms that stark, she may well not be giving this problem the psychological weight and effort that it deserves. You’ve got to get on the same page so that you both genuinely understand what’s at stake. If you achieve some real communication– with both parties *genuinely* understanding what the other thinks and wants and the impact of continuing with the status quo, you’ll be in a good position to figure out ‘what next’. Until then, you’re accepting the status quo by default until it’s entirely unbearable.
Whether that understanding comes over a bottle of wine or via a good couples counselor, it’s what has to happen. After that it can play out a few different ways:
1. You guys find a way to rekindle the flame and make it work. Not going to claim it’ll be easy– it took us 2 years to get back to ‘okay’ and we’re clawing back to ‘good’ over the course of a third year. But we’re getting there and there’s a good chance you can too.
2. You guys decide that you want to preserve what you have but open up your marriage to outside physical relationships. This works for some people, it doesn’t work for others. But if divorce is on the table, then this should be too.
3. You discover that one or both of you either can’t or won’t make it work, and you separate. There’s nothing that says that you can’t remain friends after splitting up. You’re already essentially ‘only friends’, if especially close ones with a long shared history. So in a sense it’s no lonelier than it currently is, and it would free you up to pursue a romantic connection.
Any of those three sound better than what you have. And if laying it on the line means she says “our quarter century together isn’t worth fighting for” then you need to know that sooner rather than later. You’ve still got a lot of life ahead of you– to enjoy together or to enjoy with someone else. But the status quo is being miserable for the rest of it and the longer you wait to ask, the less of the rest of your life will be left for the better parts.
Wow, great advice, Henry_Paris.
Hacka, I’ll second his advice to make clear what the stakes are. Say that you really want to stay with her, you really love her and need her sexually, but if the frequency & intimacy can’t improve, it’s just too painful for the two of you to stay together.
Have you read Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch? Has she? It was very helpful for me.
My own guess based on what you wrote, Hacka, is that it’s either an affair or a hormonal change. The latter would be treatable if she acknowledges that it’s a problem. If it’s the former, it would presumably show up in her emails/texts. You say that you give each other privacy online (“over the time of the Internet, we’ve respected each other’s privacy”). I’m not sure if that means that you value your own privacy online. But if you are willing to be completely open with her, you can ask what she has been doing with her privacy. You don’t have to check her emails/texts surreptitiously; it can be part of the conversation, where you ask to see her correspondence.
Of course, if she refuses, and shuts down all attempts to fix the problem… there’s nothing any of us can recommend for that besides separation. I hope it doesn’t come to that, but I think she should understand, before it’s too late, that things are headed that way.
@438 Hacka
Let us know how the conversation goes– we’ll keep our fingers crossed for you.
With all due respect to EricaP, I don’t think it’s reducible to those two possibilities. There’s many testimonials in this and other threads about how sexual desire vacates LTRs all the time and it’s not because either one partner is “expending” that desire elsewhere or some hormonal change has impacted it. I think as people age, as people undergo life changes, their relationship to sexuality changes. Based on Hacka’s description, this sounds as plausible as anything else.
As I suggested before, my wife and I don’t know why her, compared to when we first started going out, about 9 years ago, her sexual desire has seemingly declined whereas mine has ramped up. Sexually speaking, we’re different people now. How/why that happened isn’t clear but I’m not sure it matters that we figure it out so long as we figure out “where do we go from here.”
In any case…to Hacka:
It doesn’t sound like you’ve tried couple’s counseling and I think, before you pack up your “thinned out” belongings (an inauspicious move, however understandable), you might try that. And as others have noted, perhaps you’re a candidate for an open relationship as a compromise.
Otherwise, I think Henry P’s advice is very sound.