My wife and I click on just about every level—parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.—except for sex. After our last child was born, my advances were increasingly rejected. In an attempt to avoid pressuring her, I stopped initiating. One week passed, nothing. A month passed, nothing. A YEAR passed, nothing. Depression and anger set in. But I was committed to being the “perfect husband,” so I did not pressure her, hoping her libido would return. It didn’t. After two years, I finally lost it and confronted her. I expected that an open dialogue would improve the situation, but a month passed and she never brought it back up.
I realize that I’m lucky to be happy and fulfilled in just about every area of my life, but I’ve become fidgety, short-tempered, and hypersensitive. I do not want to have an affair and I do not want a divorce. I love her and our children, but I’m at a loss as to what to do. Knowing there are women out there in the world who actually enjoy sex is devastating (it kills me to listen to you field a call from a sexually confident woman on your podcast). I am mourning the loss of intimacy and connection with another person.
Please Advise Troubled Husband
I’ll get to you in a minute, PATH, but first…
MTV, a cable television channel that has been broadcasting music videos in a continuous loop since the summer of 1981, has elected to speed the moral collapse of the United States by putting me on television. My upcoming sex-advice program is tentatively titled Savage U, and it represents MTV’s first foray into non-music-video programming. (My preferred title for the show—Dan Savage’s Alaska—was rejected by the program’s co–executive producer, Piper Palin.) This news has upset not only my son, who has been in the MTV stage of his development for roughly three years, but also Maggie Gallagher, the head of the National Organization for Marriage, who has been stuck in the raving-bigot stage of her development for nearly three decades.
“Renowned sex columnist Dan Savage, who is an openly gay man,” Gallagher wrote on her blog, “will be taking his popular sex and relationship advice column to MTV in a show appropriately called ‘Savage U’ where he intends to educate your college student about the importance of honesty over just about anything else, including fidelity.”
Gallagher, who once had a child out of wedlock, speaks for the fidelity-over-anything-else crowd (fidelity over honesty, reality, statistics, biology, ability, etc.). Now, some people are capable of abstaining before marriage and being faithful to one partner for life—some people, but not Maggie—but these people represent a tiny minority of sexually active adults. And while those who make this aberrant lifestyle choice should not be discriminated against, the rest of us—the majority of sexually active adults—should be free to engage in grown-up conversations about sex and desire and the more reality-friendly ways in which we define fidelity without being shouted down by the monogamously correct.
I’d like to address Gallagher’s two main objections to Savage U in some detail:
“Savage, for all his experience, does not know what women are like,” says Gallagher.
I may not know what women taste like—I’ve never gone down on one—but I do know what women are like. My mother was a woman, my sister is a woman, my favorite bartender is a woman, my first sex partners were women, and many of my friends, neighbors, and coworkers are women. And as someone who is attracted to men and is in a long-term relationship with a man, I know what straight women have to put up with.
Ironically, Gallagher is a practicing Catholic who cites her faith as a reason for her opposition to same-sex marriage. But not knowing what women taste like has never stopped the pope from offering his unsolicited advice to women—no birth control, no abortions, no oral, no anal, no handjobs—and it seems a little hypocritical of Gallagher to suggest that I’m not qualified to offer advice to women, since I don’t fuck ’em, without first telling that old fag in Rome to STFU already.
“The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another, or of a vow, is not in the Savage moral imagination,” says Gallagher. “Libido will have out, and honesty about that is the best policy.”
The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another most definitely exists within the Savage moral imagination. I frequently discuss the “price of admission,” that is, the personal sacrifices, large and small, that make long-term relationships possible. For some, the price of admission—what it costs to ride a particular ride—includes “taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another.” If anal sex is something you enjoy, but you’re in love with someone who doesn’t do anal, going without anal is the price of admission. If you’re not into monogamy, but you’re in love with someone who insists on it, then monogamy is the price of admission.
Yes, libido will have out—but “libido will have out” doesn’t translate into “Dan ‘Doesn’t Fuck Women’ Savage says anything and everything goes.” Two people in a long-term, committed relationship should be open and honest with each other about their sexual interests, turn-ons, drives, etc., because, yes, libido will have out. Meaning sexual compatibility and sexual satisfaction have a huge impact on the health of our relationships and marriages, Maggie, particularly if your spouse is your sole source of sexual satisfaction and release. People who can be open and honest with their partners—whether the relationship is monogamous or not—are likelier to have their needs met and likelier to meet their partners’ needs. And when needs are met, people are less likely to cheat and more likely to stay married.
Openness and honesty don’t automatically translate into everyone gets everything everyone wants. Not all needs can be met. But sometimes just having the sacrifices we’ve made for the good of our marriages acknowledged—getting a receipt after paying the price of admission—is good enough. Getting some credit for going without anal, along with the green light to jerk off to anal porn now and then, can make going without anal easier. Indeed, it can make going without anal virtuous, something that speaks well of the going-without-anal partner’s character and priorities.
But there are times when monogamy—its pressures, its discontents, its unquestioned acceptance—can destroy an otherwise decent marriage.
Take PATH’s marriage. If his wife doesn’t come around—if her libido doesn’t kick back into gear after mental or medical intervention—this couple is surely headed for divorce. PATH is not only feeling depressed and resentful, he’s also contemplating an affair (even if he’s in the dismiss-that-idea stage). Sooner or later, he’s going to cheat or walk. But this marriage, a marriage that works on every other level (“parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.”), could be saved if Mr. and Mrs. PATH were encouraged to openly and honestly discuss their sexual needs and their sexual disconnect. If Mrs. PATH is done with sex—for now, perhaps forever—Mr. and Mrs. PATH should be encouraged to come to a reasonable, mutually agreeable accommodation, one that allows for Mr. PATH to get his needs met elsewhere if that’s what he needs to stay sane and stay married.
I’m not sure what to call someone who places a higher value on preserving monogamy within a particular marriage over preserving that marriage itself, Maggie, but I wouldn’t call that person a defender of marriage.
@411 I have no doubt whatsoever that in some/many cases the husband doesn’t help out enough around the house or with the baby. And I absolutely understand that the wife shouldering disproportionate amounts of the new workload would leave her much less inclined to find time for sex. Those husbands should step up their participation as a matter of spousal responsibility and human decency, whether it leads to sex or not.
But I’ve known many a husband (myself included) who was up five times a night with the baby, changed no shortage of dirty diapers, and otherwise did their fair share or more who still ended up with a spouse who was uninterested in sex for months or years. It doesn’t seem to happen to every couple (I think the idea that young couples and recently married couples often weather the storm better may have some truth to it), but it’s not uncommon.
I think most of the folks still commenting at this point are mostly just trying to figure out ways to salvage things when they get to that point.
You know, clearly there are a lot of couples struggling with this and mostly what we hear is comments from those who dodged that bullet and those who are still struggling. Would love to hear from folks who have stared into that particular abyss and successfully made the journey back.
My own advice is a bit weak because while we’ve made tremendous progress, we’ve still got a long ways to go.
So I sent e-mail to Dan asking if he could run a web extra soliciting stories and advice from couples who have had more unequivocal success. Keeping my fingers crossed that he’ll do so. It would be nice to read a column full of success stories and good advice. Might give hope for better days ahead.
@416 “But I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t one of the most difficult and grueling trips we’ve ever made together. “
Yes. Exactly.
@416 Henry Paris
“it’s almost easier to go through a day in which you know there’s *no* chance than those frustrating ‘it *could* be today’ days”
Spot-on there. I find it impossible to maintain a zero expectation level, but it helps when I can. It’s doubly upsetting to not only be denied, but to “get caught hoping.” It’s like, fuck, I can’t believe I did it again. The problem is I know deep down that there never truly is total hopelessness. Hope can always creep in when you know that.
For those of you just catching up, no I can’t just walk away from the person I love more that I can imagine ever loving anyone else after 16 years and with a child still in the house.
@418 – Do you mean you want to hear from guys? Because Canuck and I are both saying that our marriages have made it through the crisis.
@420 – You keep saying that the kid is part of why you’re staying… I would hate to hear that from my husband. Yes, it’s convenient to live in the same house while raising kids together, but if you think you would be better matched with someone else, you should be spending your time trying to find that other person. Life is short; find your bliss.
Hello there,
It’s me, Mrs. PATH. Thanks for the support and questions and thought provoking comments you have shared over the last month.
I can tell that much of it helped my husband in finally talking with me and understanding my point of view—which is complicated.
PATH doesn’t like it when I say that word, “complicated” or at least he used to balk at it. Lots of things in the last few years have contributed to this downward spiral. In addition to all the challenges those of us with kids experience, we both had a change in jobs, intense in-law issues, deaths of parents, other stressors that made me think it wasn’t our intimacy that was driving his depression/anger. I knew it was a problem, I just thought it was a symptom of something bigger. Mid-life crisis? Or at least I didn’t want to admit it was us. When he started pulling away, I thought he was trying to deal with other pain in his life. I should have clued in when he didn’t want me to touch him or would flinch or not respond even to a hug. But by then, I was lost in my own little pity party of “my husband isn’t attracted to me anymore; shit. He doesn’t even like me”.
So, I began avoiding him. Big time. Queen of distractions, to-do lists, chores, taking care of needy friends, volunteering, and of course playing, reading and tending to kid stuff. Also, I do work, from home mostly, but times when I have meetings outside the house, and PATH has kid duty. Especially last year, we didn’t create any time alone for each other. I tried to plan a couple of weekends away, but he said no. He said it would be more fun with the kids. I was hurt, but relieved, too, I have to admit, because I didn’t want to fight or live in uncomfortable silence.
I am a champ at filling the void: with food, plans with friends, planning birthday parties, shopping, working at night. I tried to get what was missing with PATH from other people. Thinking that when he was ready, he’d let me in again. He got increasingly angry and distant to the point of ignoring me and not making eye contact. I would plan as much as I could to be with other people so that he would respond to me when I talked or touched him. At least he wouldn’t pull away from me in public.
What is wrong with me that I didn’t bring all of this up to him? I’m so embarrassed looking back that I didn’t say something.
I know that PATH doesn’t feel as close to me when we aren’t having sex; I don’t feel like having sex when I don’t feel close to him. Which comes first? I made the mistake of saying that out loud to him once, and it totally backfired on me. He pulled away further.
I wish that long ago someone had explained that to me. We have been together for such a long time and neither one of us is good at playing games. The fact that we haven’t really communicated on an intimate level for years is the biggest game of all and one we both lost.
One thing PATH didn’t disclose is that we have been together since we were 20 and he is the only man I have ever been intimate with. I know, I know. Or maybe I don’t! Our sex life in the past was pretty predictable, not adventurous, but enjoyable. I hardly ever initiated sex, but even when I thought I wasn’t in the mood, once we started, I quickly got in the mood and reached orgasm nearly every time.
Once we had kids, and I was less interested from pure exhaustion, he didn’t make a big deal out of me not wanting to. He never pushed the issue, and like an idiot, I thought he was losing some interest, too. I know that he was being caring and respectful in the short-term. Neither of us saw this coming. But in the long run, talking about it earlier would have really made a difference. I wish that long ago someone had explained that to me. We have been together for such a long time and neither one of us is good at playing games. The fact that we haven’t really communicated on an intimate level for years is the biggest game of all and one we both lost.
This blog, these books, these videos are a huge learning experience for me–things I see in the movies. I’m not a prude, and this stuff does turn me on, but I thought that it was for younger people and didn’t think we really had it in us
In the last week, after a few more decent arguments, miscommunication, and me avoiding him, I finally just got into bed naked. It was a little awkward, at first, but we got over it and enjoyed each other like we haven’t in such a long time. I forgot how much I like the smell and warmth of his skin, the sounds and the secret between us afterward. We have made love several times since then and have been talking about our sexuality in ways that still make me blush sometimes. I even got online to find a vibrator, as I’ve never had one, but was overwhelmed and ended up not buying anything. Then a few days later FedEx arrived with some unmarked boxes. Yep. PATH took the time to do some research and ordered a couple. Wow! Why didn’t someone tell me about this sooner?
We are reading the book, Passionate Marriage, together, and it is helping to spark some good conversation about how complicated all of this can be. It is makes me a little nervous, but I feel mostly safe with PATH when we talk about it. My only fear is that there may be a “test” somewhere in the future that I won’t know I’m taking and that I’ll fail. What if I don’t initiate sex often enough? What if I don’t take enough risks? What if, what if? He assures me that I don’t need to worry; just be myself. But I’m discovering I’m not sure who my sexual self is, and what if we aren’t compatible after all?
One of the best about all of this is the greatly reduced tension in our household. Ahhhhhh. We have been touching and holding hands and kissing even in front of our kids. I hope it all leads to an upward spiral with our relationship and sex lives, too. So far, it seems to be doing just that. I realize it has only been a little over a week, but it feels so much better! I refuse to go back!
I hope this lends some insight to our story. I’m sure I haven’t covered it all. Thanks again to all of you for your time and comments. Some were pretty tough to read, but insightful nonetheless. Any more candid comments are welcome.
Cheers,
Mrs. PATH
@422 – Mrs PATH-
Thank you SO much for filling us in on your point of view and giving us an update on what’s happened since PATH sent in his question! That all sounds like tremendously good news, or at least potentially so.
Your side of the story does help explain quite a few things and, as always, points out just how vital “early and often” communication is. Still thinking through some of the things you’ve said and may have more to say later, but I’m glad you took the time to respond and that things are improving for both of you!
@421- EricaP: Ack, sorry, no! Wasn’t meaning “guys-only” at all, and not at all discounting your and Canuck’s survival stories. In fact, hearing things from the female partners’ points of view is often much more useful. Those of us on the guys-side often sound like an echo-chamber, so hearing the other side of the story (much as with MRS Path) is often MUCH more illuminating. Just looking for more stories of how people got from here to there, as I know not everyone is going to find success along the same path.
Wow, wow, Mrs. PATH! Thanks so much for sharing all that. It’s amazing to me that we live in such a sex-filled society, media-wise, and yet those intimate conversations between two people who should be able to say anything to each other are often so hard to have! (Been there, got multiple T-shirts…) And I agree, I think understanding the different ways men and women see sex and intimacy should be a topic that’s discussed much more than it is. And fwiw, for those of us “survivors” here on slog, just speaking for myself, you have to keep talking. It’s not like a magic pill, and you’re okay from that day forward. There is still negotiating and navigating to do, even after you think you have it figured out…
@422 Mrs. PATH
Thank you very much for your comment. I’m cheering for you both! It sounds like underneath your troubles you were able to find what was lost, or at least see that it’s there to be regained. I think it makes all the difference to actually have the desire for sex within you. Hopefully that will continue to be the case.
@421 EricaP
Yes, it’s not a good thing for any spouse to hear but sometimes it’s the truth. To me, being a father and a man means staying if it’s humanly possible. If the house was on fire I would walk in and get them no matter what the consequence for myself.
My wife and I create a loving atmosphere for him. I know that all he sees is that we love each other and support each other. He sees a father who he can depend on and who his mother can depend on. I would be devastated to ruin that even if I have cause to do so.
@422 – Mrs. PATH – thanks for writing! So glad you two have found your way back to each other! I loved this: “I forgot how much I like the smell and warmth of his skin, the sounds and the secret between us afterward.”
And this: “what if we aren’t compatible after all?” – I’m there with you. It’s really scary. But that’s life, right? What if I open up to him, and he leaves? What if I open up to him, and he dies? But if you never make yourself vulnerable, then you guarantee that you don’t get the connection you want.
Canuck @424 is exactly right “you have to keep talking…there is still negotiating and navigating to do, even after you think you have it figured out.” It’s the hardest thing in the world, but there’s no way around it for most of us.
@426 – Would you want your kid to make that same choice, in his life?
Since this type of question seems to come up on Savage Love a lot—frustrated husband wants to have sex but wife has lost interest in sex completely and doesn’t understand why her husband hasn’t either—does anybody have any idea WHY? Is this more of a physiological problem where some women naturally lose interest in sex after menopause, or is it more of a cultural issue where women accept the idea that the only purpose for sex is procreation. Or is it both?
@428 – have you read the comments? It’s not about menopause, this happens when people are in their 30s/40s. Sometimes, the sex wasn’t so amazing for the woman to begin with, so when she is tired in mid-life, it just seems like another chore.
Also, people feel sexy when someone see them as sexy. As Henry_Paris said, often people tune out any generic compliments from their partners, so they may not believe they are still sexually attractive.
PATH, you are lucky in such a wife. I don’t know if I would have handled having to read this whole thread if I were her with anything close to such an open mind and good nature. And thank you, Mrs. PATH, for writing – it’s really scary to challenge what you are used to, even if what you are used to isn’t really what you want or need. I hope I can be as brave at overcoming my own problems.
And as for your letter, you said:
“I know that PATH doesn’t feel as close to me when we aren’t having sex; I don’t feel like having sex when I don’t feel close to him. Which comes first?”
I learned that from this thread – that generally men need the sex to feel close to someone, and women need to feel close to someone in order to need the sex – I knew the last part but not the first. These are hard things to learn from the people you care about (easier to get and hear from strangers, oddly enough), and it seems like so many people fall into this endless spiral of frustration and misunderstanding. I am glad you are working your way out of it and things are off to such a great start.
You also said:
“But I’m discovering I’m not sure who my sexual self is, and what if we aren’t compatible after all?”
Well, first of all I’m pretty sure he’s just delighted that you’ve got a sexual self! What shape that will take for you isn’t something to be scared of – if you were into some seriously kinky stuff that is so frightening he’s likely to run for the hills I’m pretty sure you’d have had an inkling before now. Everything else can be worked out one way or another. I’m sure he’d be pretty sad if you throttled back your full sexual identity to something tame and non-threatening just so you could better accommodate what you think his needs might be. You have to keep in mind he may not know what his sexual limits are either – it’s not just you but him too that has been having the same sort of sex (or not) for the past two decades. Everything from here on out of a sexual nature is an improvement, and not something to be scared of but exciting. Think of all the potential you have for joy! (and how well the vibrator purchase went!). He’s lucky enough to get to be there with you through this, and you are lucky enough to have someone you trust to be there with you.
There is no test you can fail. You’ll initiate sex as often as you want it – and now that you and he can talk about why you both want sex, or not, how you both feel about it, all of that, if you stop wanting sex again you’ll both be able to work on why and help each other fix it. What if you don’t take enough risks? What risks do you need to be taking other than talking to your husband about how you really feel? That’s the riskiest thing, and you’re already doing it, and doing it well from the sound of your letter. If you think you need to take sexual risks – I’m not exactly sure what that means but yeah that does sound a little scary. Maybe you could explain?
What if you aren’t compatible? Well, it sounds like things are going well now, which is a good start. Women tend to find out what they need sexually later than men, and needs can change over time too. As you get more sexually confident, you’ll know what you need. If it goes beyond what he is interested in or able to do with you, you guys will have to work out how to get those needs met within the bounds of the marriage. But you just got a vibrator this week. I don’t think you’re going to be demanding a tricked out BDSM dungeon for at least another couple of months, so don’t worry, he’ll have time to adjust. And I’m sure he’ll get used to the trio of loincloth clad waxed chest muscle bound poolboys you’ve hired to flex in attractive poses as well. It’s all right! Exploring your sexual self is a gradual process, you’ll work it out, your sex life and your everyday life will be better for it, and I’m sure he’s delighted to be in on it. He says don’t worry – I say don’t worry. You keep on working things out between you and you’ll be ok.
@427 EricaP
I don’t understand. Do you mean when he is older and married and in the same situation? If so then I think we all need to do the best we can. The fairy tales are not true. At least not all of them. Deep love isn’t sufficient to live happily ever after.
So if he finds himself in love and he’s built a life and a family then I would want him to make the decision that he can live with. Only the individual can decide what the balance of all that is. Is it worth saving the marriage? I can only tell you how I feel today, whether I can keep trying or whether I’ve reached my limit.
Mr. J @431 – Fair enough. I wouldn’t want my children to learn from my example that they should stay in an unsatisfying marriage … But as you’ve pointed out before, your options are complicated, and none of them are perfect or cost-free. So as you say here, all you can do is model for him someone who examines his life, and tries to make the best choices given the available knowledge.
Which is all any of us can do.
As someone who thus far has only been interested in the monogamous variety of committed, long-term relationships, I feel it is important to point out the difference between monogamy and fidelity. A lot of people seem to use these two words interchangeably, which in my opinion leads to a number of serious misconceptions about what a modern, GGG, open-minded and monogamous person like myself believes.
MONOGAMY: The practice of having only one mate a time, sexual or otherwise.
FIDELITY: Strict observance of promises, duties, etc; or, conjugal faithfulness.
By these definitions, a person engaged in a mutually agreed-upon open relationship is being 100% faithful to his partner when (s)he has sex with another person under those mutually agreed-upon terms. Fidelity is forfeited only when an explicit (or obviously implied) promise is broken. For the sake of your monogamous but poly-respecting readers, Dan, stop referring to monogamy and fidelity as if they are the same thing! It’s the GGG thing to do.
It’s not just people with kids.
I’ve been with my DW for 23 years – about 17 married. Sex was, once upon a time, playful, experimental for both of us, fun, orgasmic, and generally pretty good. I think we met the criteria, at that point, for Dan’s “GGG.” We both initiated
However, at some point, it slowed down. I love her dearly, we are still generally pretty affectionate in terms of speaking nicely to each other, but intimacy has somehow become taboo. We used to tease each other into bed with playful words, but for years, I’ve done so and she just doesn’t respond – gets an odd look on her face.
When we do have sex, which is relatively infrequent – maybe five or six times a year – all of the play is gone. I am a guy who actually *likes* foreplay – I like the way it can increase intimacy and intensity over time – but it’s right out. When we have sex now, it’s very quick – she basically wants me on top and wants me to get it over quickly.
I’m kind of baffled. I’m graduate-school-educated, well-behaved, clean, not horrible-looking, have nice breath, am responsible with money (I’m a fairly well-paid consultant – she wanted to manage our money and I’m fine with that. I earn it, she manages it, and does brilliantly – we’re pretty well-off for a couple in their high forties), and I treat her with consistent love and respect. I listen to her concerns and pay attention. We’ve long since split up the house chores equitably – the kitchen/fridge/vacuuming/bathrooms are mine, dusting & laundry are hers, and other things (fixing house stuff, mostly) we do together. We walk together – she’s training for a breast cancer three-day – and talk endlessly about books, about ideas, about whatever.
But it seems as if she’s put up a wall where sex is concerned. And it’s odd. Once in a while she’ll give me a pinch on the butt and whisper something salacious to mewhile we’re out and about, and I’ll respond, but if I try to translate that into anything more than a close hug or a good kiss – which last has suffered terribly, fwiw – it’s as if she doesn’t even hear me. She just blanks out and doesn’t respond.
When we’re having sex, she doesn’t seem to be there any longer.
I have considered various theories, and none of them reasonably hold water. I don’t think she’s having an affair, unless it’s really in the cracks of her life – she works in public and there’s not a lot of time, and it would be very old by now, at least six or seven years; I think I’d have seen something during that time. She does have chronic diseases (diabetes and mild asthma) but we’ve taken pains to structure things so that she’s isolated from things that trigger bad effects of both, and we ensure that she gets enough rest time to further buffer the effects of her illnesses. She works out as noted above, and that’s helped stave off neuropathy issues which might impede her enjoyment of touch.
I don’t think she has childhood abuse issues. This has been going on well before she entered perimenopause. She’s successful at her work and esteemed highly by people, so self-esteem is probably not part of the picture.
She does watch a lot of TV and spend a bunch of time on the Internet. I don’t watch TV (just find a lot of it) but yeah, I use the internet, too, and we’ll chat and lots of kind words go across the network. And she has her places and I have mine; over the time of the Internet, we’ve respected each other’s privacy.
….and we still only have sex rarely.
It only happens when she feels like it.
When I try to initiate in any way – talk, touch, whatever – it just goes to /dev/null – it’s like it never occurred.
Playful sex is nonexistent. It’s become painful for me, because even when she initiates, she doesn’t seem to be present, to enjoy it. She hasn’t had an orgasm during sex for years; the only time is when she has me bring her off with my hands, which is quite rare now.
We’ve tried – for example, we’ve set off for vacations with the stated intent of having more sex, but it doesn’t happen. She’s tired. Or it’s a bad time. Or we can do it later because there’s this thing to do now.
We talk. We’ve talked about it. She’s been upfront with me – “My sex drive isn’t as strong as yours” – but the frequency has continued to drop like a stone. She’s said I’m not communicating – I don’t know how to communicate more. I listen to her, take interest in her, share my own feelings. I give her massages when she’s sore from training.
I love her desperately – her wise mind, her brilliant intellect, her big brown eyes, the delicate curve of her ears, her hair, her lovely face, her voice, and, trust me, the rest – but somehow it’s not registering with her.
And it’s breaking me. I tried for years to try to initiate things, and was turned down time and again, and eventually got discouraged. I still try time and again – admittedly far less than I used to – to no avail. I’ve tried to be positive about it because there’s little that’s better in this life than the lovemaking we had…..the memory of the feel of her hair on my face can make me smile, even now.
But I’ve gotten to the point where I’m becoming angry and resentful. We talk about it, we resolve to change, and when I try to bring it to fruition, to go beyond sensual touch into sexual touch, she freezes up. And I don’t know why, and can’t figure it out…..
I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to leave her, but I also don’t want to go without sex – or have only halting, awkward fumbling sex once in a while, at her exclusive prerogative – for the rest of my life.
If I could figure out what I’m doing wrong, I’d change it. I’ve examined everything under a microscope many times. And I’m evidently too thick to sort it.
So, thoughts and opinions when lines of communication are open but things don’t improve?
Thank you in advance for any ideas.
@434 hacka
Well, you’re far from alone in your situation, to which many of the comments in this thread can attest. Your situation sounds very much like PATH’s or any of a number of other folks here. It’s a common problem and the solutions tend to be hard won.
I was in a VERY similar situation to yours and I’ve made tremendous strides in the recent past and I posted some suggestions based on that in comment 403. I’d also suggest you read Mrs. PATH’s response @422.
She really hammered home for me the fact that once things have been going poorly for so long, you form a negative feedback loop. You don’t want to be the person who badgers your partner into sex, so you stop initiating and start resenting (even if you don’t mean to do so). That lack of initiating and resentment comes through to your partner– either overtly or subtly and your partner pulls *further* away as a defensive mechanism. Lather, rinse, repeat. It also points out that appearances can be deceiving and a partner who seems uninterested in sex may actually *want* an active sex life if you can find the way back together.
While my wife and I had made great strides (see my comment), we still weren’t where we wanted to be. Reading Mrs. PATH’s response prompted me to trust in the strength of our relationship and risk greater vulnerability in our communication and in my actions. I got a lot more open in communicating what I want, even at the risk of getting shot down. And my wife responded really positively. We’ve had discussions about things far outside of our comfort zone and it has been a learning experience for us both.
And while most ‘nice guys’ (which most of try to be) are socialized to go out of our way to be sensitive to our partner’s likes and dislikes and putting what they want first, it’s easy to go too far and become too passive. Sometimes even if something isn’t what your partner would say they want, they’ll be excited to come along for the ride if you’re sufficiently passionate about it and about them.
You DO want to wait until you’re past the resentment, solidly into the communication, and both on the same page about making things better. But sometimes being more aggressive (while still reading your partner to know if you need to slow down or step back) can be a big help. Getting thrown on the bed and taken is WAY sexier than being asked, so long as there’s trust, respect, and communication.
That’s my two-cents, though some of the others who’ve fought back from the brink (EricaP, Canuck and others are VERY good folks who have done the same) have their own insights you should read or solicit from them.
@Henry Paris: Thank you very much. I’ve read through the comments, and while they’re indeed wise and perceptive, none are speaking to me.
I am, to some extent, in despair. I’ve tried to communicate via every means I can think of – talking, continuing gentle touch – she does like that – telling her outright that I miss intimacy – not just physical intimacy, but emotional closeness – and she’ll agree that we need more intimacy, more sex (by which I do NOT just mean PIV intercourse).
But in the crunch, it doesn’t happen. I’m trying to decide whether to stay (materially comfortable but unsatisfying) or go (essentially starting over – I’ll probably leave her the house, etc).
I’ve already begun thinning my belongings, so that if I decide to leave, I’ll be able to carry most of my things away in one or two trips. I hate to throw away a quarter of a century, but I just don’t see a way to translate her agreement to work on things to actual practice.
@436 Hacka
Well, sounds you’re further down the spiral than most of us got. Have you actually said “I’m seriously considering leaving if this doesn’t improve?” so she gets how serious you are about this being a problem?
If you want both want to salvage things, couples counseling (with the right counselor– might ask the list for local recommendations) might help. But if you’re already thinning belongings to make moving out easier, I’m guessing you’re ready to move on. Good luck to you. Don’t be cruel in your departure, but do make sure she understands why you’re leaving– after two decades plus, she deserves an honest reason, kindly offered.
@Henry: I haven’t said that. I’m afraid to; I suppose I am afraid she’d take me up on it, and it would be a fairly great loss in terms of compatibility in other ways. Plus, it’s going on a quarter of a century together, and that’s terribly hard to abandon. We have no children, so there’s no damage done there.
I suppose I’ve envisioned this as a discussion where I finally say “We’ve tried and have agreed that there needs to be change, but change doesn’t happen – we’ve talked about it in depth, but there’s been no action. And we could talk and agree again, but I think it’s time that we realized that change isn’t going to happen, and that we need to scuttle the ship.”
It’s not something I particularly want to say, but agreement without action / follow-through is putting me in an untenable position. I won’t blow up and yell – I grew up in a house where that was the favored method of communicating, and I won’t do that – but I will assert myself ifI have to.
I’m not an awful human, I don’t think, for considering this. I don’t think she’s an awful human, either. If our intimacy worked the way it used to, I’d be delighted. I still enjoy her company a lot. But if it doesn’t work – that is, good communication fails – then as Jung said, my options are reduced to bad communication or no communication. And I vacillate regarding which of the two is better – conflict or loneliness.
@438 Hacka
If you haven’t put things in terms that stark, she may well not be giving this problem the psychological weight and effort that it deserves. You’ve got to get on the same page so that you both genuinely understand what’s at stake. If you achieve some real communication– with both parties *genuinely* understanding what the other thinks and wants and the impact of continuing with the status quo, you’ll be in a good position to figure out ‘what next’. Until then, you’re accepting the status quo by default until it’s entirely unbearable.
Whether that understanding comes over a bottle of wine or via a good couples counselor, it’s what has to happen. After that it can play out a few different ways:
1. You guys find a way to rekindle the flame and make it work. Not going to claim it’ll be easy– it took us 2 years to get back to ‘okay’ and we’re clawing back to ‘good’ over the course of a third year. But we’re getting there and there’s a good chance you can too.
2. You guys decide that you want to preserve what you have but open up your marriage to outside physical relationships. This works for some people, it doesn’t work for others. But if divorce is on the table, then this should be too.
3. You discover that one or both of you either can’t or won’t make it work, and you separate. There’s nothing that says that you can’t remain friends after splitting up. You’re already essentially ‘only friends’, if especially close ones with a long shared history. So in a sense it’s no lonelier than it currently is, and it would free you up to pursue a romantic connection.
Any of those three sound better than what you have. And if laying it on the line means she says “our quarter century together isn’t worth fighting for” then you need to know that sooner rather than later. You’ve still got a lot of life ahead of you– to enjoy together or to enjoy with someone else. But the status quo is being miserable for the rest of it and the longer you wait to ask, the less of the rest of your life will be left for the better parts.
Wow, great advice, Henry_Paris.
Hacka, I’ll second his advice to make clear what the stakes are. Say that you really want to stay with her, you really love her and need her sexually, but if the frequency & intimacy can’t improve, it’s just too painful for the two of you to stay together.
Have you read Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch? Has she? It was very helpful for me.
My own guess based on what you wrote, Hacka, is that it’s either an affair or a hormonal change. The latter would be treatable if she acknowledges that it’s a problem. If it’s the former, it would presumably show up in her emails/texts. You say that you give each other privacy online (“over the time of the Internet, we’ve respected each other’s privacy”). I’m not sure if that means that you value your own privacy online. But if you are willing to be completely open with her, you can ask what she has been doing with her privacy. You don’t have to check her emails/texts surreptitiously; it can be part of the conversation, where you ask to see her correspondence.
Of course, if she refuses, and shuts down all attempts to fix the problem… there’s nothing any of us can recommend for that besides separation. I hope it doesn’t come to that, but I think she should understand, before it’s too late, that things are headed that way.
@438 Hacka
Let us know how the conversation goes– we’ll keep our fingers crossed for you.
With all due respect to EricaP, I don’t think it’s reducible to those two possibilities. There’s many testimonials in this and other threads about how sexual desire vacates LTRs all the time and it’s not because either one partner is “expending” that desire elsewhere or some hormonal change has impacted it. I think as people age, as people undergo life changes, their relationship to sexuality changes. Based on Hacka’s description, this sounds as plausible as anything else.
As I suggested before, my wife and I don’t know why her, compared to when we first started going out, about 9 years ago, her sexual desire has seemingly declined whereas mine has ramped up. Sexually speaking, we’re different people now. How/why that happened isn’t clear but I’m not sure it matters that we figure it out so long as we figure out “where do we go from here.”
In any case…to Hacka:
It doesn’t sound like you’ve tried couple’s counseling and I think, before you pack up your “thinned out” belongings (an inauspicious move, however understandable), you might try that. And as others have noted, perhaps you’re a candidate for an open relationship as a compromise.
Otherwise, I think Henry P’s advice is very sound.