My wife and I click on just about every level—parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.—except for sex. After our last child was born, my advances were increasingly rejected. In an attempt to avoid pressuring her, I stopped initiating. One week passed, nothing. A month passed, nothing. A YEAR passed, nothing. Depression and anger set in. But I was committed to being the “perfect husband,” so I did not pressure her, hoping her libido would return. It didn’t. After two years, I finally lost it and confronted her. I expected that an open dialogue would improve the situation, but a month passed and she never brought it back up.
I realize that I’m lucky to be happy and fulfilled in just about every area of my life, but I’ve become fidgety, short-tempered, and hypersensitive. I do not want to have an affair and I do not want a divorce. I love her and our children, but I’m at a loss as to what to do. Knowing there are women out there in the world who actually enjoy sex is devastating (it kills me to listen to you field a call from a sexually confident woman on your podcast). I am mourning the loss of intimacy and connection with another person.
Please Advise Troubled Husband
I’ll get to you in a minute, PATH, but first…
MTV, a cable television channel that has been broadcasting music videos in a continuous loop since the summer of 1981, has elected to speed the moral collapse of the United States by putting me on television. My upcoming sex-advice program is tentatively titled Savage U, and it represents MTV’s first foray into non-music-video programming. (My preferred title for the show—Dan Savage’s Alaska—was rejected by the program’s co–executive producer, Piper Palin.) This news has upset not only my son, who has been in the MTV stage of his development for roughly three years, but also Maggie Gallagher, the head of the National Organization for Marriage, who has been stuck in the raving-bigot stage of her development for nearly three decades.
“Renowned sex columnist Dan Savage, who is an openly gay man,” Gallagher wrote on her blog, “will be taking his popular sex and relationship advice column to MTV in a show appropriately called ‘Savage U’ where he intends to educate your college student about the importance of honesty over just about anything else, including fidelity.”
Gallagher, who once had a child out of wedlock, speaks for the fidelity-over-anything-else crowd (fidelity over honesty, reality, statistics, biology, ability, etc.). Now, some people are capable of abstaining before marriage and being faithful to one partner for life—some people, but not Maggie—but these people represent a tiny minority of sexually active adults. And while those who make this aberrant lifestyle choice should not be discriminated against, the rest of us—the majority of sexually active adults—should be free to engage in grown-up conversations about sex and desire and the more reality-friendly ways in which we define fidelity without being shouted down by the monogamously correct.
I’d like to address Gallagher’s two main objections to Savage U in some detail:
“Savage, for all his experience, does not know what women are like,” says Gallagher.
I may not know what women taste like—I’ve never gone down on one—but I do know what women are like. My mother was a woman, my sister is a woman, my favorite bartender is a woman, my first sex partners were women, and many of my friends, neighbors, and coworkers are women. And as someone who is attracted to men and is in a long-term relationship with a man, I know what straight women have to put up with.
Ironically, Gallagher is a practicing Catholic who cites her faith as a reason for her opposition to same-sex marriage. But not knowing what women taste like has never stopped the pope from offering his unsolicited advice to women—no birth control, no abortions, no oral, no anal, no handjobs—and it seems a little hypocritical of Gallagher to suggest that I’m not qualified to offer advice to women, since I don’t fuck ’em, without first telling that old fag in Rome to STFU already.
“The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another, or of a vow, is not in the Savage moral imagination,” says Gallagher. “Libido will have out, and honesty about that is the best policy.”
The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another most definitely exists within the Savage moral imagination. I frequently discuss the “price of admission,” that is, the personal sacrifices, large and small, that make long-term relationships possible. For some, the price of admission—what it costs to ride a particular ride—includes “taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another.” If anal sex is something you enjoy, but you’re in love with someone who doesn’t do anal, going without anal is the price of admission. If you’re not into monogamy, but you’re in love with someone who insists on it, then monogamy is the price of admission.
Yes, libido will have out—but “libido will have out” doesn’t translate into “Dan ‘Doesn’t Fuck Women’ Savage says anything and everything goes.” Two people in a long-term, committed relationship should be open and honest with each other about their sexual interests, turn-ons, drives, etc., because, yes, libido will have out. Meaning sexual compatibility and sexual satisfaction have a huge impact on the health of our relationships and marriages, Maggie, particularly if your spouse is your sole source of sexual satisfaction and release. People who can be open and honest with their partners—whether the relationship is monogamous or not—are likelier to have their needs met and likelier to meet their partners’ needs. And when needs are met, people are less likely to cheat and more likely to stay married.
Openness and honesty don’t automatically translate into everyone gets everything everyone wants. Not all needs can be met. But sometimes just having the sacrifices we’ve made for the good of our marriages acknowledged—getting a receipt after paying the price of admission—is good enough. Getting some credit for going without anal, along with the green light to jerk off to anal porn now and then, can make going without anal easier. Indeed, it can make going without anal virtuous, something that speaks well of the going-without-anal partner’s character and priorities.
But there are times when monogamy—its pressures, its discontents, its unquestioned acceptance—can destroy an otherwise decent marriage.
Take PATH’s marriage. If his wife doesn’t come around—if her libido doesn’t kick back into gear after mental or medical intervention—this couple is surely headed for divorce. PATH is not only feeling depressed and resentful, he’s also contemplating an affair (even if he’s in the dismiss-that-idea stage). Sooner or later, he’s going to cheat or walk. But this marriage, a marriage that works on every other level (“parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.”), could be saved if Mr. and Mrs. PATH were encouraged to openly and honestly discuss their sexual needs and their sexual disconnect. If Mrs. PATH is done with sex—for now, perhaps forever—Mr. and Mrs. PATH should be encouraged to come to a reasonable, mutually agreeable accommodation, one that allows for Mr. PATH to get his needs met elsewhere if that’s what he needs to stay sane and stay married.
I’m not sure what to call someone who places a higher value on preserving monogamy within a particular marriage over preserving that marriage itself, Maggie, but I wouldn’t call that person a defender of marriage.
@253: Nice, if you can afford the nanny. Good choice about cancelling the cable, etc., to make the financial ends meet with the new priorities. In any case,. I agree with you totally about shifting priorities, whether or not that involves finances.
Take the situation described by 232: BOTH people had full-time work outside the home, BOTH people helped out a lot with the housework, and BOTH people apparently put sex last on the priority list, with the result that sex happened pretty seldom for a while. I sure hope that BOTH people wanted it that way, otherwise ONE of them was unhappy with the situation, in which case as a system it was a failure.
It sounds like 232’s love language is “acts of service,” judging by “his helping showed me how much he cared, which made me want him all the more.” So, she wanted him all the more…but still, both of them were generally too tired to have sex. Fat lot of good that does. If his love language was also “acts of service,” great: the two of them could be mutually happy and exhausted together. However, if his love language was “physical intimacy,” then her love language needs were being fulfilled daily, while his were only being met randomly if at all. Very unequal, very unfair, very “fail.”
If they make sure to be intimate early, when they aren’t tired yet, and that shows him how much she cares about him, and he helps her out constantly as a result, then BOTH are having their love language needs met.
Sure, there are periods where it just isn’t workable, even if you do put sex and intimacy at first priority. Even when you aim for regular quickies in the morning while you are still fresh, if the baby kept you up all night “fresh” is already off the table. But it will still happen far more often, and with a far better happiness quotient, than if you put intimacy off until dead last.
… Good lord, people. Basic logic, please. Everyone responds to incentives, which means that trying to fix a drought in the relationship by doing a larger-than-you-usually-do share of the household chores is a bad, bad, bad plan. It sets up the dynamic that the less sex you have as a couple, the nicer you treat her, which is obviously Not Going To End Well. Not for you, not for her, not for the relationship.
The opposite solution (Do less chores the less she fucks you) is equally obviously a very rapid path to “end of relationship” the first time sex tapers off at all.
Basically, mixing together chores and your sex life is deeply stupid. Set up an equitable division of labour early on, in writing if need be, and stick to it like it is the word of god.
If you feel like being manipulative, then do some minor thing above and beyond the call of duty around the house consistently the day after sex. Buy a new houseplant, decal the walls in the nursery, extra effort into cooking, and candles. But it has to be something outside the category of basic household maintainance. The idea is to create positive associations, not to pile on the negatives on top whenever she is not getting any.
Which, it is important to remember, is already a negative for her.
Thank you all for listening. TMI as always. Your support means more to me than I can adequately express. My love to you.
@247 EricaP
Wow, you really “get” me.
I already have told her that I’m bi. It was a short conversation. All she said was “Oh, I thought you said you were straight.” Having her look me in the eye and embrace everything about me is a long-term project.
Thanks again for giving a damn Canuck, kim, EricaP, avast2006, and so many others.
@78 “Any girl or woman over the age of 12 knows what a big deal sex is to men.”
Actually you know wha? You’re pretty much right. That conclusion is inescapable, pounded into our heads from even earlier than that, over and over and OVER.
I’ll let you in on a little secret, though. That attitude is called entitlement (look it up). It’s actually a pretty ugly attitude, and is a huge turn off for many. I as in that situation and trust me, I *understood* that. I was *also* mad as hell that it wasn’t about how *I* felt but what I was “keeping” from him.
No one likes to feel they are reduced to a convenient hole (and if that infuriates you, go back and reread the definition for entitlement again).
In general you have to talk, you have to keep the lines of communication open. And complete failure to touch the subject (I just love how people always believe another knows what they are thing; my observation is that this is far from the truth esp among married couples) is as bad as “If you loved me you’d have sex with me even if you don’t feel like it (bitch).”
Don’t assume that just because someone “knows” something about you, that they will do something about it. It may in fact be (even a part of) WHAT they are mad about in the first place.
Let me clarify one bit of phrasing (I have a tendency to hit the big shiny green post button when I want the drab gray edit one).
I was mad as hell that *my* feelings weren’t being considered as well; it was all about what I was “keeping” from from him.
And discussions that amounted to figuring out what button to push to dispense the sex instead of looking at how I felt really didn’t help. (I don’t mean button pushing as in the colloquial term, I mean more literally, as if I were a vending machine.)
BEG, jebesasquatch can answer for himself, obviously, but this conversation was also carried over from another thread, and I think you’re picking up on the anger here that hasn’t been in other comments. He’s a really great guy, stay-home dad, dinner on the table when his wife gets home, and although he loves her dearly, she has radically changed the sex landscape from what was mutually great for both of them to hardly ever. She won’t have sex if she doesn’t feel like it (which is most of the time, as in months) and he won’t pressure her. But, and this is what we’ve been discussing, at what point in a marriage to you get to say your needs are as important as their needs? He’s the opposite of pressuring. If he vents, it’s here, and not to her. We’ve been (nosy nancys that we are) encouraging him to let her know how deeply her continued rejections are affecting him.
Just wanted to let you know that. He may seem a bit growly in the comment you cited, but he’s a sweetheart.
230: “If a social worker came into your home, which would you rather they find: a sink full of dishes and a dirty floor or the absence of a just-fucked grin on your face?”
Apparently I haven’t made it clear that I’m talking about rearranging priorities in a way that makes room for all of them. I don’t know about the rest of you, but for me, while vacuuming might make me too tired for sex, the reverse definitely isn’t true. Quite the opposite: a romp in the morning is a wonderful way to start the day, and we are both going to be more cheerful, more productive, feel more connected, and be more helpful to each other as a result.
My wife is of the same opinion, having arrived here by working our way through the stereotypical dry spell that kids tend to create. Frankly, it would have been nice for us to figure this out 10 years earlier.
I’m really sorry to hear of your wife’s apparent lack of interest. My opinion is that if she can’t be bothered to pay attention to you, she has no call to be anything but pleased if you get your needs met elsewhere. She’s off the hook for something she doesn’t want, and you are happier because you aren’t being deprived of fundamental intimacy, which should, if anything, improve your home environment. If she honestly has no interest in your sexuality, then what she doesn’t know about it won’t hurt her. (Standard disclaimers about safe sex and not bringing home a disease, though pragmatically speaking, you can’t infect your wife with an STD if you have no sexual contact with her, so that warning is for your benefit, not hers.)
I know you say that you don’t want anyone else, what you want is more of her. You are also implying that once the child is grown, you will leave. That strikes me as 9 years of not getting what you want from her, followed by losing her. Meeting your intimacy needs discreetly elsewhere might actually preserve your marriage, which under current terms appears to otherwise be doomed.
@260,261 BEG
I was having a really bad few days there and approximately the first 50 comments of this thread just set me off. That was my exasperation with what I saw as the willful failure to recognize a basic truth about people. As in, “how can you claim to not know…have you been living under a rock…” I would absolutely never translate a person’s desires into an obligation on another. I don’t have a sense of entitlement.
I apologize to you. I am sorry. I do understand that it is difficult for people to understand each other and that they shouldn’t be assumed to be heartless when they fail to do so.
@262 Canuck
Oh Nancy. Where would I be without you?
@264 avast2006
You’ve made yourself clear. I agree with you. However, there is a way to arrange your life into one long crisis so that, truly, you can’t just make time for sex.
The thing about people whose whole conception of marriage depends on monogamy is that you don’t fuck someone else. That they don’t fuck you is irrelevant. You are making a rational argument against an irrational point of view. The unreasonable person must decide for themself to open their mind.
jenesasquatch@266
Hah! (I also respond to Bossypants, just like Tina fey… 🙂
Kim, EricaP, et al, it’s all good. It’s been 3 years this week and I’m doing great! Kim’s comment just reminded me of what we go through emotionally leading up to the diagnosis. xox
Good morning, jenesasquatch.
I’m glad to ‘see’ you. (For what it is worth, I wish SLOG had a chat feature, I’d rather say this all just to you, but maybe someone else needs to read this. One never knows…) I hope this means that your chin is up and your ‘spirit’ is more at rest. If you feel either lagging, just imagine very calloused fingers (blues guitar and bass player)lifting that chin from someone who understands too well that there are monsters in the world and that fear of rejection can haunt a person. Down deep you know,and I know, that we aren’t responsible, never “earned”, what was done to us. Just as we know that it doesn’t limit our lives unless we give it permission to. Abuse is just part of the great story of our life, that must be lived from the truth of who we are with conviction and honesty. You have won, I’ve won (on most days), we do not live as victims, we do not victimize others, we love deeply and generously, we guard and protect- sometimes against our own best interests- because we know pain too well and do not wish to others suffer it. Those are beautiful gifts with more upsides than down, but we must love ourself in order to love others well. Give yourself and your wife the gift of you, no more mixed messages about who you are, love. I’ll admit that I lack the power to know how any of our stories ends, but I’m convinced that the only way to live them is deeply from the heart, one day at a time.
You, dearest, are better and stronger than anything ever said or done to you. You have won. Give yourself grace, the same that you extend to your beautiful family. And, don’t reject yourself to preempt their rejection. Pruning can be painful and hurt, but it makes our lives more fruitful and brings out the best.
I wish my Portland wasn’t on the left coast at the moment. As always I’m sending you wishes for joy and peace with more love than you can grasp.
Take care.
Longtime fan of Dan’s, recently awed by the responders. (I’m so happy for you Kim, and Desp.Me I wish the best to you too.) The recent posts have blown me away. You are all wonderful!
I’m so glad that you are doing great, despicable me.
And, I love reading you Canuck and EricaP.
Thank you, avast2006 @ 254.
@270 kim in poetry
maxbosco1 at hotmail not my real name
“represents MTV’s first foray into non-music-video programming.” Uhhh, let’s not get carried away with the trailblazing self-congratulation, Dan. Ever hear of the “Real World”? Been on almost 2 decades I think.
P.S. #47 Thank you.
jenesasquatch,
I can’t say I’ve read your whole story but I’ve read some. This revelation about bipolar disorder is a game changer. That is a serious mental disorder.
Your one month agreement to have an open marriage…was that before or after your obsession with that other woman? Even if that didn’t happen, doesn’t it seem like going outside your marriage in any capacity is a monumentally bad idea if you have bipolar disorder?
Your disorder must be difficult for her. You are probably far more mercurial than you realize. Don’t you think that might be a big part of the problem…that it’s hard, that she doesn’t always know who she’s coming home to, that she knows you might do something really hurtful to her not because of you but because of the disorder?
If you react to your own callous treatment of your wife by talking about cutting out your own tongue, how is she supposed to talk to you about how that made her feel? Are you internalizing your episodes? Do you think you are your disorder? How are you treating it? Are you seeing somebody regularly and taking medication?
There are better ways to deal with this sort of thing. There are ways to deal with bipolar disorder. It doesn’t seem like the two of you are really dealing with it at all. It seems like you’re just trying to ride out the storms as they come.
@252 – “My wife… has no idea how far short a few minutes on top once a week is. I’ve tried to explain, but she gets defensive, and feels pressured, and that only makes it worse.”
Don’t let this issue get swept under the rug for years. You’re at once-a-week now; many Slog posters wish they had that much. If your sex life used to be better, ask her what changed. Don’t let years go by while she forgets that her body can bring her pleasure.
If sex isn’t ever mutually satisfying, it won’t last. Dameedna@215 and his wife have reached an understanding where she links sex with other things that she values more, so she understands what she gets in exchange. But equally important, in my mind, is that he says that sometimes she does get sexual pleasure from the act itself.
Sounds like jenesasquatch and his wife only have sex when she will enjoy it. That’s great for her, but leaves him feeling blue. It’s so hard to find the acceptable middle ground, where there is enough sexual pleasure for the low libido partner that she remembers sex is fun, and enough frequency for the high libido partner that he doesn’t feel cut off from his sexuality. (Apologies for the gendered pronouns.) Hard work, made harder because our society undermines the endeavor at every turn. But crucial.
despicable me@269: Glad you’re doing well these days; thanks for writing to let us know.
jenesasquatch… just a thought, but maybe yr wife finds being whined about on the internet a giant turnoff? all you ladies snuggling up to this guy, a guy that I’m presuming (what with the serious mental illness and all) none of you would touch with a bargepole in real life, are pretty sickening. the cooing of bourgeois fixers ain’t gonna fix this.
there’s nothing wrong with being lonely and in pain and needing to talk. I’m betting the internet won’t help you fix that for real, though. best of luck with actually getting some help that doesn’t involve splatting your marriage all over the world’s least anonymous sex column.
Thanks for sharing, White Hotel, but this is, in fact, an anonymous forum, and I would like to think we’re all learning and gaining new insights, here. And how dare you presume to tell people what they would or would not deal with in real life? You presume we’re married to people with no faults, who have never needed counselling, or that we ourselves are without fault? It’s a nice black and white world you live in, I guess, but it’s not my world. Knowing what I do about both you and jenesasquatch, I can tell you which person I’d rather have over for dinner…(hint: It’s not you.)
Thank you for sharing your opinion and concern, white hotel. tWas sweet of you. Don’t go into mind reading business, though. You’re not omniscient yet.
Cheers!
@278
I’m more of pee drinker than a whine drinker. I think the Beaujolais you refer to come out in November though don’t they? Oh yeah. I can’t have alcohol with my meds or I become so fabulous they need to collect me in large butterfly net. Thanks for your input!
@282 *grin*
@282, I’ll have to remember to stop drinking long before I pee in your mouth then, I guess… jk, jk… Haven’t been called bourgeois in quite a while. If only it were as easy as whitehorse suggests to find people outside SL who don’t judge one for speaking openly about sexual and marital difficulties.
@275 shw3nn
Yes, it’s a serious illness. I accept that it’s a deal-breaker in dating. It was on my list of undateable qualities above. I’m not interested in dating at this time. I think my wife and I can do better together.
Order of events:
1) new medication (prozac) (+scotch see @282)
2) first diagnosis of bipolar; major depression previous
3) obsession with woman (with borderline personality disorder just cuz I never fuck anything up halfway)
4) butterfly net (just kidding)
5) new medication (no more alcohol thanks)
6) more medication
7) open marriage
If you’ve never had the misfortune of experiencing any sort of mania let me explain an important point: Mania is infinitely worse than depression if you have any sort of conscience. Mania/depression is not analogous to happy/sad. Depression is an inward suffering that causes other humans to want to comfort you. Mania scares the shit out of people and makes them want to physically hurt you.
You don’t know me but I love my wife as much as it is humanly possible. She is the most beautiful, loving soul I have ever known. I would never have considered marriage or family without having met her. I absolutely adore her every minute I’m with her. You know those disgusting “soul mate” couples making sappy faces at each other and referring to one another with nauseating nicknames? That’s us. And with no sign of letting up, sex or no sex.
Can you understand my use of floral language to describe my remorse for that particular behavior, despite her recognition that I was (her words) “out of your fucking mind?” (observation not accusation)
We have a good understanding of each other on most things. A spouse is the best monitor of a bipolar person’s state so her’s is the opinion we go with. I have been stable/slightly to somewhat depressed for years now and we prefer it that way. Until there’s a cure we will not risk mania. I will not experiment with other meds because of the risk of a)death or b)mania. Depression I understand very well after a lifetime of experience. I can handle depression.
My illness is not at crisis level and hasn’t been for a long time. I don’t believe it has any role in our sex life at the present.
@284 EricaP
No, no as long as your liver is working fine it’s okay!
You are both eloquent and perceptive, jenesasqatch. It’s a privilege to have you sharing your story with us. If your wife is the lovely person in other respects that you’ve described, I’m sure you’ll find a way to get through to her.
@287 Canuck
Thanks. I hope I will.
So… he made no sexual advances nor discussed sex with his wife for A YEAR and then “finally got fed up and confronted her” (read: got angry and yelled at her about it)? Whaaaa….? Dude you can’t expect to have a normal sex life if you never discuss sex with your wife, and then when you finally do, you are super negative about it. Also you didn’t even tell us how she reacted when you blew up – if it was anything other than slapping you, you got off lucky. From her perspective, maybe she thought you were done with sex too.
Bring it up more often, and kindly. At least once a week.
@286: Good to know!
@276 “It’s so hard to find the acceptable middle ground, where there is enough sexual pleasure for the low libido partner that she remembers sex is fun, and enough frequency for the high libido partner that he doesn’t feel cut off from his sexuality. ….. Hard work, made harder because our society undermines the endeavor at every turn. But crucial. “
Exactly Erica. I would observe that it doesn’t have to be specifically sexual pleasure you get from the encounter either. I think one of the things that impedes a resolution is if the higher-libido partner pressures or expects their partner to react exactly as they do, or insist that they be sexually passionate or experience orgasm. I only expect a welcome from her, and if she wants or finds herself getting aroused, then woopie! Other times it can be more like a peck on the cheek, but it does enable the deeper mutually passionate encounters when it’s right for her.
Your observation that there are societal attitudes and expectations which make it more difficult is spot on – and really the point I’d want to make. Challenge those beliefs and attitudes, and accept flexibility, imperfection and good-enough, and you stand a much better chance. Sometimes that won’t work, but at least you’re then doing what’s best for both of you, not dancing to some other person’s tune or ideology. We ain’t on the earth long.
Has anyone considered the idea that maybe she’s not frigid? Maybe, she’s no longer interested in him and possibly having a thing on the side?
Has anyone considered that maybe she hasn’t lost her libido; maybe she’s not attracted to him and cheating on him? If they can communicate so well when it comes to other issues, maybe she’s not forthright in communication because she feels guilty/doesn’t want to be found out? Just mentioning it because a friend went through something like that. Turns out she wasn’t frigid; she just wasn’t having sex with him.
@293 jesseeo
How to sort out the liars, eh? That’s a possibility as you say. But wouldn’t the thing to do be the same? Wouldn’t he need to tough it out and deal with her openly and honestly?
@292 – what is the deal with her orgasms? Does she know how to get there, but doesn’t feel the desire very often? Is it hard for her to get there? Does she do fine with masturbation? Has she tried strong vibrators? erotica? does she fantasize, ever?
I understand not wanting to pressure her, but she only gets one go-round at life. And many women waste time believing they can’t orgasm, or not easily. How sure are you, that she has really educated herself about her body and her options?
I do think that her pleasure in sex should be physical pleasure (at least some of the time), not just enjoying giving you pleasure. It would take a lot to convince me that she wasn’t capable of physical pleasure.
EricaP, I think you mean @291…
And to respond to your question, I agree that at a *certain age,* we women-folk would do well to investigate the charms of Babeland, etc., for some B.O.B.s…however, some people are funny about stuff like that, embarrassed, whatever. So, introducing some toys (along with a few glasses of wine, probably) would be a good idea, but I did have a thought, aside from that: What dame edna describes is probably pretty common, owing to fluxuations (why doesn’t slog like the spelling of that?) in monthly cycles, etc., she may not feel like ringing the bell every time. Sometimes, it’s like going out for a nice dinner, which you really enjoyed, but your husband wants dessert, and although it looks good, you’re too full to want any…
@289: No one should ever consider themselves “lucky” for not getting hit by their spouse. I’m pretty fucking sick of this idea that it’s normal for a woman to slap a man if she’s offended by what he has to say. Newsflash: hitting your spouse is DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, and it doesn’t change a thing just because the person taking the swing has a twat between her legs. Acting as if female-on-male violence is funny, or appropriate, or “to be expected”, is an excellent way to make men (collectively) give a lot less of a shit about female victims of domestic violence.
@296 Canuck
fluctuation
@291 dameedna
Let me add to what EricaP said. I once dated a young woman who never orgasmed. It turned out that it had never occurred to her to touch herself and had no idea of what an orgasm felt like. I had her do some homework and that took care of that. She masturbated alone to orgasm, then we did ourselves next to each other, then I did her. Smooth sailing after that.
@285 I am familiar with bipolar disorder.
I am going to be brutally honest, I think you are lying to yourself.
I don’t feel the way that white horse does. The love and support you are getting doesn’t sicken me. I want you to continue getting it. I’m not trying to wrest it from you nor do I think I could.
I just want to put this idea into your head for you to consider and ruminate on.
Your wife gave you permission to fuck other women despite feeling so completely averse to the idea that she would have left you if you had actually done it. She tried her best to ignore her own feelings about it until she realized she couldn’t.
So, it is a fact that your wife keeps things from you and tries to ignore her own feelings for your sake. That does happen in your marriage. Her suppression of her feelings almost ended your marriage. She was willing to suppress feelings strong enough to end your marriage.
I would not describe the language you used as floral so much as graphic.
Using language like that is an effective way to prevent others from criticizing you. It’s a way to protect yourself. You punish yourself in front of others to keep them from punishing you.
Do you recognize that this kind of language doesn’t allow for completely open communication?
Your obsession with this other woman almost certainly caused your wife pain. What did the two of you do for her, to heal the wound you most certainly caused?
Has she yelled at you and called you a piece of shit and beat you with a foam pillow?
If I were in her situation, I would need to do that, just for my own sanity, despite how much I knew it wasn’t really his fault.
I would say, “Somebody who looks exactly like you ripped my heart out and ate it while I watched. And I am furious. I have anger. I need to unload this anger.”
Unless, of course, he kept talking about cutting his tongue out and wanting to kill himself. If that were the case, I would think, “He’s so hard on himself. I can’t say anything mean to him. I’ll just swallow my anger and press on.”
Also, I think that, if you really let her be angry with you, it would alleviate this remorse that you feel. Of course she realizes that it wasn’t you. It was the disorder. But, like Jung said, “The educated man tries to repress the inferior man in himself, not realizing that by so doing he forces the latter into revolt.”
This whole thing could be your wife’s lizard brain saying, “If I don’t get to have my tantrum, you don’t get to have a sex life.”
@35 — sorry, she likes really light caressing and head for 30 minutes or more…
Oh, too funny, jenesasquatch! Seriously, I just googled, and found this blog title: “Today, I tried to spell fluctuate as “fluxuate.” Doh. May I just say that if I ran the world, it would be spelled with an x…. 😉
(Mr. Canuck is now laughing his head off…)
shw3nn, something to consider: some people don’t yell and scream and throw things when they are angry or hurt. Not everyone reacts that way, and “lets it out.” I have no idea what category jenesasquatch’s wife falls into, but I can relate to not blowing up. I was raised by a mom who read all the 60s and 70s literature, and was constantly advising me to yell at her when I was mad…I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me!” Some people just don’t do that.
As far as the other stuff goes, you can never be sure how someone will react to a thing until you get it out in the open. EricaP and her husband opened up their marriage, but that was after a very painful (from what she’s said) conversation. They very well may have tried to open it up, and found that after a month it wasn’t possible for one of them…you aren’t going to know these things until you try it.
I’m just getting the feeling you think marriages aren’t messy…what is it Dan says? A constant series of apologies offered and accepted, or something? Anyway, I think everyone is just trying to navigate, and realign when things change over time.
Canuck @296 – thanks, yes, I meant 291. I don’t think a woman who is married and has children gets to say “oh, I’m too embarrassed to think about sex toys and talk about orgasm.” I mean, WTF? If she said she was too embarrassed to learn about birth control, or teach her daughter the facts of life, would that be okay? Not in my world. Women don’t get out of learning how to do their taxes, how to change a tire, and how to have orgasms.
And @302 – don’t forget the occasional orgasms, after the apologies offered and accepted.
@301 – thanks for chiming back in! So, when you give her really light caressing and head for 30 minutes … does that lead to orgasm? Does she masturbate? does she let you masturbate when she’s in the room?
@300 shw3nn
“I don’t feel the way that white horse does. The love and support you are getting doesn’t sicken me. I want you to continue getting it.”
Thank you.
“I am familiar with bipolar disorder.”
How so? Many commenters tell stories of violent bipolar people they have known. I am not that person, assuming there was one in your life. I am an extremely peaceful person even when experiencing hypomania. It would be nice if you would look at your own life and be honest about whether you have an ax to grind. I’m curious.
“I would say, ‘Somebody who looks exactly like you ripped my heart out and ate it while I watched.'”
“I would not describe the language you used as floral so much as graphic.”
Ditto to the latter.
As a matter of fact she has no reservations about tearing me a new one and did so over this issue, within earshot of our son. As much as I thought that was not the time I sat silently, ashamedly and accepted her anger and broken heart. Would it help you understand if I said that she’s the man in some aspects of our relationship?
This is the only place where I’ve put my feelings into such terms. I don’t go on about it to her. I have never threatened suicide. This space is not a conversation with my wife. I’m talking through things here with compassionate people whose incredible giving has made significant improvement to my life.
My wife and I have talked through that time in our marriage. We’ve had those hard conversations. If one of us has inhibitions as a result it’s me. I told you of my remorse. Can you imagine me asking for open marriage again? Or would you recognize that I would go to the ends of the earth to find another solution?
If we are going to start quoting pioneering therapists then let me paraphrase this: sometimes a monogamist is just a monogamist.
EricaP, agreeing with you (about the sex toys) doesn’t make it happen out there, seriously, a lot of women (not slog women, obviously…) just would not talk about that, or would be embarrassed about it. It’s silly, but that’s our sex-negative/virgin/whore culture for you…
Re: orgasms: one of the biggest proponents of women learning to do this for themselves is Betty Dodson. If you google her, and see the picture (current) on her website, I dare you to guess how old she is…I was thinking 60s. Anyway, I am firmly convinced her daily “regime” has done more for her skin than any anti-wrinkle cream could. I think the release of stress and the daily pleasure has given her an O face we’d all be happy to have… 🙂
@306 she looks amazing! Wow! And of course I don’t believe all women will magically become sexually liberated because I post about this. But who has the most incentive to encourage them to think about opening up to how their bodies can feel, if not their sexually deprived husbands?
All I’m saying is that if you are a guy who wants more sex, one avenue to try (besides bribing her with presents and vacations and doing the chores), is to make it a marital project to figure out how she can learn to get pleasure from sex. Surely if she likes it more, she’ll want it more. At least more than none at all. And you’ll both enjoy sex more if she is less the madonna and more the whore.
The flip side of this is that I think a lot of women fake pleasure early on in a relationship, all the way up to when the babies come. With the arrival of kids, she has achieved one of her life goals, and she has different priorities now. If she wasn’t enjoying sex before, she now has little reason to continue to fake it; the two of you are tied together by the children you made.
So, what’s a guy to do? Leave her for someone else, or figure out how to make her into someone who can enjoy sex honestly. See @299 for evidence that this is possible.
@302 – Ms Canuck, I rather like fluxuate; it’s very Austenian. The Austen juvenilia is about five times better if published with the original spelling.
And bless Mr Jenesasquatch for a mention of Marianne Dashwood, who has been so vilely abused lately. I have yet to recover from the most recent version of S&S. Making Marianne fall in love with Brandon BEFORE she marries him? Heresy that completely chucks almost everything that is most powerful about her! It gives me a migraine even now just to contemplate it.
I am developing considerable fellow feeling for Mr J (poor you!). Sometimes one just knows what one isn’t going to do, however much sense it may make or how reasonable its proponents. Or one does something almost immediately after concluding it would be inadvisable.