My life is not horrible. I’m an American college student. Compared to most people in the world, I’m pretty well-off. I go to college in Bellingham, Washington—the weed is awesome, the weather is great, and there are lots of hot guys. Score! But! I’m a homo. And I didn’t know how horrible my life was until I got here…
It seems like every gay/queer person who is involved in anything gay/queer on campus has this idea that gay people are SO oppressed that we need to constantly discuss it and feel like victims. Don’t get me wrong: We are a ways away from equality, and I recognize this. But it seems like the constant thread on college campuses for queers—other than talking about Lady Gaga or sucking dick—is complaining about how oppressed queer people are.
How do I respectfully say, “STFU, we’re doing just fine, you white, upper-class American kids” without sounding like an insensitive assdouche?
MG
You know, when I came out to my parents in 1981ishwhateversomething, telling my mom and dad that I was gay didn’t just mean telling them I liked to kissandotherstuff boys. It meant telling them I would never marry, never have children, and never be a marine. Or at least that’s what I thought I was telling them. But here we are, three short decades later, and I’m married. And I have a child. And now I can be a marine. (Not that I want to be a marine—well, not anymore. After seeing a pic of a shirtless Navy Seal in last week’s New York Times, I want to be a Navy Seal.)
And I live in Seattle, where the weed is awesome (I’m told), the weather is great (if you like to snowboard), and the boy I marriedandkissandotherstuff is a lotta hot guy all by himself.
I agree with you, MG. Things are good. Things have gotten better—and not just for me.
But we have work left to do. We have our full civil equality to secure, homo- and transphobic violence to confront, bigoted lawmakers to defeat (hey there, Rick!). But the discrimination and challenges we face shouldn’t prevent us from appreciating the good things. Yes, it has gotten better. That doesn’t mean we can ignore the bashings (tinyurl.com/42lqr55) and outrages (tinyurl.com/27ugxtz) and tragedies (tinyurl.com/3lk5h3l). But we shouldn’t be so in love with our victimization—or so insecure about our progress—that we can’t acknowledge the triumphs (tinyurl.com/3uzulpr) and joys (tinyurl.com/2g3pwry) and Navy Seals (tinyurl.com/68xol6p).
So I’m with you, MG—up to a point.
I disagree about the STFU part. You don’t have to hang out with the kind of LGBT activists who aren’t capable of fighting the good fight—fighting for their civil equality and mine and yours—while also appreciating all the good things about their lives. Not all LGBT activists are humorless scolds. Some are, for sure (and they tend to be overrepresented on college campuses), but there are plenty of people out there who can organize a protest one night and a good party the next.
Guys like you and me, MG, people who have it pretty good, have to remember that there are LGBT folks out there who have it lousy and not all of them are in a position to speak up for themselves. Let me see if I can think of an example… okay: There are bullied and isolated and abused LGBT kids out there who don’t live in places like Bellingham or Seattle, who don’t have the love and support of their parents, and who aren’t “doing fine.” If we don’t speak up for isolated and bullied LGBT kids, who will? (For the record: There are lots and lots and lots of loved and accepted LGBT kids out there, too—not all LGBT kids are miserable—who are doing fine and fighting for their own rights and the rights of other LGBT kids.)
We don’t have to mope. We don’t have to pretend that we feel oppressed 24/7. And we don’t have to attend pointless queer events that are run by LGBT whiners who mistake wallowing in self-pity for activism. You’ll find, once you get out of college, that most of us aren’t moping, pretending, or attending. Most of us are getting on with our lives and doing fine.
But, again, not all LGBT people are doing fine, MG, just as not all LGBT people are white or upper-class or in college or lucky enough to live in Bellingham. If you’re in a position to do something, MG, you should. You don’t have to do everything. Make your contribution. It doesn’t have to take over your life, and you don’t have to pretend to be any more oppressed than you actually are. But you should do something.
Remember: The only thing more annoying than a whiny, college-age queer with a persecution complex is a smug, college-age queer who takes his good fortune for granted and couldn’t give a shit about other people because, hey, he’s got his (his weed, his boys, his education).
I’m a 26-year-old lady who just broke up with a man I thought I wanted to marry. We had incredible, playful sex, were very kind to each other, are both a little queer, and share many interests in spite of our 20-year age difference.
Six months into our relationship, I moved to a bigger city four hours away, and we could see each other only every other weekend. Because of our careers, it wouldn’t be possible for us to live in the same place again for at least two or three years, maybe more. That was one reason I broke up with him. I also feared that he needed to be with a man—even though he loves me to sit on his face. He’s definitely bi, but he’s never been with a man. I am, too, but having had girlfriends makes me comfortable knowing that I mostly want to be with men. Part of me is excited to be free to explore my new city on my own and trusts I made a mature decision. Part of me thinks I really fucked up to let go of a kind, fun—if slightly flawed (but they all are)—relationship. What do you think?
Drowning My Sorrows In Glee
I think it’s a wonderful thing to be 26, bi, single, employed, and living in a big city. I think that a guy who’s single, bi, and amazing in bed at 46 is likely to be single, bi, and amazing in bed at 48. (No guarantees, of course.) You should enjoy the next couple of years, DMSIG, and then revisit the issue of Mr. Wonderful if and when you two or circumstances conspire to put you in the same place again.
I have to take you to task for your answer to Sent From My iPhone. In your answer, you compared condoms and withdrawal as methods of birth control. As a former Planned Parenthood volunteer educator, I will tell you that, like withdrawal, condoms alone are NEVER a recommended form of birth control. To compare these two “methods” is a little irresponsible. In fact, condoms alone weren’t even on our list of birth control methods. The good news is that condoms PLUS spermicide were on that list. When used together and properly, condoms and spermicide are almost as effective as the pill in preventing pregnancy.
Loud Mouth About Birth Control
Thanks for sharing, LMABC.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
as always Dan, very decent column. can’t wait to see you on MTV!
Something’s telling me this week’s column won’t get 400+ comments.
DMSIG–
but what does HE think? does he want to marry you? did he make a fuss when you broke up with him? he may be still available when you get back in 3 years, but he might want to stay unmarried and on the playful, irresponsible side of relationship-hood.
@2, is that a challenge?
😉
DMSIG
Given his age, he isn’t going to wait around hoping you will realize you’ve made a mistake. Someone closer to your age might be willing to take a chance on you, but look at it from his perspective. Granted there are no guaranties in life, but you’ve bailed on him once. I don’t think that there is anything that you can say or do to convince him that you won’t do it again.
Does being gay mean you’re obligated to contribute to the cause of gay rights or to be interested in LGBT politics? I mean, I can see why that battle needs to be fought primarily by LGBT people, but isn’t it kind of everyone’s battle? And what about people like MG who just aren’t into it? I know gay people who feel ill-at-ease with the gay community because it’s just a group of people with whom they share nothing in common other than sexual orientation. I’m guessing MG is like this, and I don’t totally blame him.
Interestingly, MG also could do with being reminded that It Gets Better. I remember coming out in graduate school in 198[CENSORED], and meeting one dyke in particular, a couple years younger than I, who voiced it pretty well: she was tired of the other dykes because they were going on and on 24 hours a day about oppression. She just wanted to hang out and have a good time once in a while. She wasn’t alone. Turns out even the activists got tired of struggling and needed to just hang out and experience life.
Once you’re out of college, MG, it will get better. You’ll live a life that is too full of work, hobbies, worship, pets, friends, family, and hopefully a wonderful relationship for you to remember to whine 24 hours a day about oppression.
LMABC, as someone who volunteered for PP, you should know that spermicide is terrible for women. I’m really shocked you would recommend it. And Dan, I thought you would know better too!
I was recently told the same thing about condoms at the sexual and reproductive health clinic – that they just aren’t reliable enough. That is why, here in Calgary, they are putting IUDs in the teenagers assembly line style in mass clinics. I got one too now and it is fantastic. So far, I feel that it is healthier than the pill, spermicides, condoms as far as birth control goes…I would still use a condom with a casual partner. I wish I had got it at 16 instead of 40.
“Not all LGBT activists are humorless scolds. Some are, for sure (and they tend to be overrepresented on college campuses)”
Ooooh is that not true! Dan speaks the truth. Sure not all activists are humorless but most of them sure are. Whether it is the oppressed gays, the blacks, the hispanics, the women, or the environmentalist activists it seems the order of the day is bitch, bitch, bitch. They look under every rock for something that gets them offended and then spend their entire lives flailing and railing about every real or imagined slight.
These over privileged fucks live in the richest country in the world and spend their time whining constantly about how bad they have it. I think if we took the time we all collectively spend whining and moaning about how this group gets this and this group doesn’t get that and spent it on science(and I am talking about REAL science NOT Women’s or African American studies) we would have transporters and warp drive by now. Beam me up Scotty- there’s no intelligent life down here.
It does not JUST GET better, it IS better. Sure there is the bullying thing and the anti-gay violence which Dan has taken firmly by the balls but the fact is gays, on average, have a higher education level and a higher income than straights. I think this is because they do not usually get married. Marriage is definitely a one way street. If the man makes money, he is going to pay when they get divorced. If the woman makes money, SHE will pay almost nothing in the divorce. You know I am right! So if you are going to base your whole idea of oppression on the fact this society is slow about changing the definition of marriage that has been around for, oh about 10,000 years or so then you are being ridiculous. I wanted to marry our 14 year old babysitter and I feel I am oppressed because our awful society won’t let me. Dammit. She was really cute.
As for Drowning My Sorrows: He has never been with a man at age 46 but you just KNOW he is Bi? This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Dan’s answer was perfect for her though. Oh to be 26 again…
@ 10 – Maybe I’m mistaken, but didn’t you previously say you were a sociology teacher? How close has sociology brought us to warp drive?
A horrific (and ignored-for-two-months-because-I-didn’t have-health-insurance) reaction to spermicide gave me PID. Whoops. I guess my two methods now are condoms and possible infertility.
This is not meant as an attack at anyone here. I’m just trying for understanding and closure.
I realize this off topic, but for personal reasons can anybody tell me whether its all cheaters are habitual liars or all habitual liars cheat? I realize its probably just semantics, but I could use some clarity in a very confusing situation.
Sorry for the distraction.
Ricardo, you’re so obviously a bitter old lonely dried up “gay” who has nothing to offer this conversation other than tired elderly tropes and ill thought “arguments”…like any other that you participate. Go away, old– you humorless dust ruffle.
I see that EricaP’s here giving her enlightened opinions free of charge and quite unsolicited…over and over again. I like the fact that she posts first and reflects later. It’s spontaneous, like a belch.
A lot of women are actually allergic to spermicide and it can increase the risk of STI as it irritates the vaginal tissue. As someone who worked at PP for years, I can tell you that we did teach condoms as a BC method and never recommended spermicide unless the woman was there for a diaphragm or cervical cap. We almost always recommended two methods if possible, but would never tell a woman not to use only a condom if that was all she could do.
Ricardo, you’re so obviously a bitter old lonely dried up “gay” who has nothing to offer this conversation other than tired elderly tropes and ill thought “arguments”…like any other that you participate. Go away, old– you humorless dust ruffle.
I see that EricaP’s here giving her enlightened opinions free of charge and quite unsolicited…over and over again. I like the fact that she posts first and reflects later. It’s spontaneous, like a belch.
oh…Professor is retarded, too. Lotta loud old fucks in the gay community with nothing to say at length (david mixner and many other professional homosexual oppresionalists comes to mind). Thing is they once were young fucks with nothing to say at length…I guess they had their youthful vigor and looks to distract from their relentless stupidity. That’s long gone for you, ricardo and professor. Now it’s just gumming your words and resenting the shade.
hhh
@15 my thoughts exactly, being a woman who’s unwittingly used condoms with spermicide and wondered why they were so uncomfortable. Then I read about nonoxynol-9 and it all made sense. Spermicide is wretched–might as well not have sex at all it makes it so uncomfortable. There’s your birth control method.
Dan, regarding your response to drowning my sorrows in glee you said “I think that a guy who’s single, bi, and amazing in bed at 46 is likely to be single, bi, and amazing in bed at 48”. Well, I am 42 and it has taken me this long to go from denial, to bi, to finally considering gay. I want what most people wnat – love, freindship, intimacy with a partner. Your comment was hurtful and for the first time ever reading your column I have felt that my journey was not up to your standards somehow. This was the last place I would have thought I would be excluded, but now it;s clear where you draw the line.
How do you say STFU without sounding insensitive? The answer has nothing to do with being white, upper class, privileged, or even gay. The answer is found in the annals of etiquette. It’s called changing the subject.
When someone starts to bitch, listen sympathetically, but don’t add your own whine. When they’ve gone on too long, ask about something in their complaint that doesn’t directly impact the complaint.
For example, when a classmate is complaining about the unfair and boring biology prof, ask how she got interested in biology or what professors at the school she recommends as good. When someone is complaining about an unfair policy having to do with gay rights on the political scene, ask about whom he’d vote for or wish was running. Ask about how he envisions the future or even about what it was like for him coming out in comparison to what it was like for the previous generation. When he answers, listen with sympathy again. Then give your own answers.
See how clever this is? You’ve stayed on topic, just let it veer in another direction– a direction that’s not all oppression and activism.
I have nothing to back this up with (except my memories of being a female, straight, college student who was sure she was oppressed one way or another), but I’d guess that most of your buddies are going on and on about oppression because they think that’s what you have in common. They’re seeking to make friends by sticking to things they think you’re interested in. Let’s guess that some number of them will be only too glad to discuss a hundred other topics of interest. Pursue friendships (and sexual relationships) with them. When you find someone who keeps getting back to oppression in a one-track way, become too busy to get together the way you would with any other bore.
@20 can you explain more how Dan’s column felt like it negated your existence?
@ Matt E, you took that way too personally, Dan was just saying that at that age the guy is likely to be single in a couple years. Dan’s comments almost certainly nothing to do with his orientation. As most of us get older it’s easier to spend more time alone, after all, 2 years single when we’re 20 is 20% of our life up to that point, 2 years single when we’re 46 is less than 5%. I think you taking offense to his totally reasonable advice is a bit weak frankly. (Not intending to hurt your feelings, quite the opposite, I’m trying to tell you to not have hurt feelings!)If you can’t see that now that I’ve pointed it out, or decide to take my post as an attack when it clearly is not, then oh well I suppose.
I think you’re taking that far too personally Matt E. At 46 someone is a lot more likely to remain single for 2 years (less than 5% of their life) than someone who is, say, 20 (10% of their life up till then). I don’t think Dan was trying to say anything more than that, you may have read too deep into his statement.
Sorry everyone for that weird double post, I’m new, had to sign up and I didn’t think my original version had been posted, very embarrassed!
I see someone else got the same thing I got out of post 20 though…
@20
I don’t understand how you got so quickly from “is likely to be” to “ought to be.”
Spermicide raises the risk for STI transmission. What if you want one thing to work as birth control AND STI prevention?
Condoms have worked fine for me, for birth control, for almost 20 years. They’ve also prevented me from getting STIs… and they have done the same for many other people. I would never recommend that a woman use a spermicide unless she is in a completely monogamous relationship (and how many women think their relationships are monogamous and find out otherwise via STI?) Don’t risk it.
@20 is trolling… see, for a long time Dan made statements that could be read as saying most bi guys were actually gay, and that bi was just a point on the way. A bunch of bi people got offended, and so now Dan is careful to say things like “a guy who’s bi now is likely to be bi two years later.”
So 20 is pretending to be a gay gay who went through bi as a point on the way, and pretending to be offended that Dan is now saying that NOT all bi guys are actually gay.
To #2…
I have nothing to add to the column and the first 27 comments that preceded me. But despite having such wonderful life thought I should still make an effort and post my meaningless comment, if only to make it slightly closer towards 400 mark.
Off topic to today’s column, but of interest to Savage Love readers in general– Did anyone catch Keira Knightly on The Daily Show the other night? Jon Stewart had her google on santorum.
Spermicide is nasty and, unless you’re at home and stocked up, you’re not likely to have it with you when you need it. The best option is condoms AND withdrawal. Few things prevent pregnancy better than fucking with a rubber and finishing on her tits.
Condoms alone are 97-98% effective when used perfectly. Instead of teaching women that condoms alone are an ineffective method of birth control, which is a lie, you should teach them how to improve the 86% “typical” failure rate, by inspecting each condom for tears before use and how to unroll it properly with the reservoir in the right place.
correction: 86% “failure” rate should have been 86% effectiveness/14% failure. Switched my terminology a bit without intending to.
Haha, OK here’s my good faith effort to help with the comment count.
Just a few issues to consider: women are taught not to even use soap to wash the outside of their genitals, but they’re supposed to squirt heavy duty chemical irritants inside their vaginae? Really? I don’t think so. It perplexes me that anyone recommends spermicide nowadays.
IUD would be a good option IF women using it were 100% certain they would not get an STI. (The little string that hangs from it is a brilliant way to transmit pathogens from the vagina to the uterus and further, thus making a case of STI several times worse, in terms of symptoms and long term consequences.) I don’t think your average teenage girl who’s has had a nearly foolproof birth control device fitted in her uterus belongs to that group. Actually I shudder to think what happens when she goes to college.
How about condoms + BC pill? Throw in withdrawal too if you’re able to pull it off (or rather, out) in a timely manner. But I suppose it won’t happen every time so stick with the big two.
Best method of birth control: use the other holes.
@ 14&16 – I would ask, PP, that you refrain from using quotation marks when saying that I’m “gay”. It’s grammatically incorrect. Ones uses quotation marks either to quote, or to imply that the word is used slightly differently from the accepted meaning. That’s not the case. I’m definitely gay in the two most commonly accepted senses of the word.
As for the rest of your comments, I may ber “humorless” according to you, but you certainly got me laughing!
Regarding MG, I think one of the problems with the obsessed oppressed is simply that it turns off people who would otherwise support the issue. In other words, it’s not helping the “cause”, it’s harming it. The previous 400+ post discussion last week was likely one of those.
I’ve had the absolute privilege of living in some poor countries, and the entitled certainty of some highly educated people in western countries nauseates me in. Well-fed and SUVed complaining about some injustice or other. Some humility and compassion for each other is certainly in order, and I guess no-one wants to listen to the shrill.
@37 dameedna
Yeah, but half of those comments were just JA5 repeating himself.
@36 Couldn’t PugilistPuck, who totally isn’t Professor, be quoting somebody else when he calls you “gay”?
Maybe PugilistPuck was quoting Professor who is totally not the same person.
@39 – But what would be the point of that? Of course, that question could apply to anything PP says.
@12 – Keep your head up. Try not to lose hope and remember that just because you had PID does not necessarily mean that you CAN’T have kids, it may just be a lil tougher. I got PID at 15 and spent 4 days in the hospital because of it. I had a few miscarriages, but eventually I had a healthy baby girl. I didn’t even have to go to a fertility doc. Not promising it will be as easy/hard for you, or that dealing with miscarriages, etc. wasn’t hard, but remember, it’s not impossible. Best of luck to you!
@13 – I think all cheaters are habitual liars, but not all habitual liars are cheaters….. Generally, you probably have to do a lot of lying to get away with cheating. But, just cause some does a lot of lying, doesn’t necessarily mean that they are doing a lot of cheating, too.
Throw me into the camp of sensitive to spermicide. I am sure that the stuff was about 50% responsible for a string of UTIs I had while in college!
For most of the time I have been sexually active, it has been condoms and HBC – no pregnancy scares.
Dan makes his living as an activist columnist so he has an interest beyond altruism in stirring the pot! But aside from that he IS more fortunate than many (perhaps more accurately, most) gay people, because, through no skill of his own except picking his parents carefully, he’s better looking than average and has parlayed that into a stable relationship with another hottie.
That said though, there’s nothing gained by anyone saying STFU, regardless of circumstances. Whatever a person’s situation they’d do well to either make the best of what’s available, or (in the worst case scenario) run like hell away!
Where does one get condoms without spermicidal lube? Do such things even exist anymore?
Also, I think you missed the point on the first letter (MG) – he’s implying that “middle class” suburban white kids who’s parents pay for them to attend a university don’t have real problems, for the most part. Being gay is just something to work with in college – maybe you’ll have less friends, you won’t go to as many parties, etc – but you’re better off than being the child of immigrants living with 6 cousins and 5 aunts/uncles in a 2-room apartment on a combined $25,000 a year in a shitty, shitty neighborhood. Hearing members of the privledged class complain about the rights they don’t have always rings as hollow. If you want to talk about teen/gay runaways and drug abuse, about REAL gay-bashing (gay people can in fact be assaulted for reasons other than their being gay), about the types of issues you wouldn’t wish on anyone that particularly affect the gay community, fine. But a 20-year old complaining about not being allowed to adopt a child strikes me a spoiled. MG is right.
Yes, 45, they do. Have you been to a drugstore recently? Any size, any color, any flavor, any brand — all available without. It’s all I use, since I can’t use hormonal BC while nursing my child (some can, but I cannot), and spermicide always ALWAYS gives me a UTI. Many women, like me, are allergic to it.
And for years, until I found a HBC method that I was also not allergic to, I solely used condoms without spermicide, and I am STI and unwanted baby-free.
Learn how to use condoms correctly and they work just fine.
@13/42 – If given convenient circumstances, someone can cheat without telling overt lies. I had thought my husband was a bad liar, but it turned out that he was pretty good at keeping a secret from me.
confused fool@13 – we can give you more advice on your liar/cheater (and extend this thread) if you give us more information to work with…
MG – educate your friends about the kyriarchy.
@45, fetish– If you’re looking for non-lubricated condoms without spermicide, you can buy them at any ordinary drug store that sells condoms. I just checked my bedside drawer and see that Trojan and Durex both make the non-lubricated sort. If you’re looking for condoms that are lubricated but not with a spermicide, I haven’t checked, but I believe they exist. Or just get a tube of lubricant separate.
I’m grateful for those writing to say that they find the spermicides irritating. I was young when I learned that the spermicide on condoms and designed to be used with diaphragms was a severe allergen for me. It was embarrassing at the time and an annoyance. Now I just read labels carefully. All the same, there’s comfort in knowing that it’s a widespread problem, not just me.
#20 sounds like he IS 20 and in college. To get butt- hurt at Dan’s reply was absurd.
CONDOMS PLUS SPERMICIDE?!?!?! I call bullshit! I highly doubt that responsible sex educators are recommending condoms and spermicide. Spermicide is irritating to the vagina and can increase the STI risk of those who use it.
I just checked the Planned Parenthood Canada website. They most certainly DO recommend condoms alone as an effective method of birth control. I don’t know where the hell LMABC is from.
LMABC actually uses scare quotes, calling condoms a “method” of birth control. Dan, did you check this letter with Planned Parenthood itself before throwing their name around?
I was just at Planned Parenthood, and they *do* recommend condoms alone, especially since spermicide has been shown to irritate vaginal tissue, thereby creating susceptibility to STIs.
I don’t know who this person is, but their information is not correct.
@9 “That is why, here in Calgary, they are putting IUDs in the teenagers assembly line style in mass clinics.”
I’m surprised that they are putting IUDs in teenagers. In the U.S., you’d have trouble finding a doctor that would fix you up with an IUD unless you have already had a kid. They say the risk of uterine perforation is higher, but I don’t know what they base that risk factor on.
I had trouble with the pill, so had an IUD for years. It worked great the first time I used one. But after my second kid, I had one inserted and two months later I was pregnant with my third kid. They have a 2% failure rate, and I guess I was one of them.
If you don’t want to have kids, or have enough, sterilization is a good method of birth control.
@47 – yes, one can definitely cheat without telling overt lies, but I myself consider lying by ommission still to be a lie.
@13 – yes, please more info
I’m sure we can get to those 400 comments……..
And to chime in with the anti-spermicide crowd…..It didn’t take long for me to figure out (at 16) that I could not use condoms with nonoxynol-9 either…ouch!
You are extremely common, ricardo. It’s not grammatically incorrect, stupid. QM’s can be used to draw attention to a word by the writer. That is all, gayfag.
————–
Also, the gay activist community is rife with unfortunate looking activists. Fugly sads, or sad fuglies. They aren’t getting a lot of sex for obvious reasons (pork chops couldn’t induce the dog to play with ’em in their formative years). The lack of sex and isolation from being different causes them to exaggerate the oppression that they experience as a distraction from the resentment that will eventually consume their every sentient moment in choking bitterness that prevents normal functioning. This also explains their curious habit of involving themselves in, say, Palestinian enfranchisement…or other causes that have nothing to do with gay rights, or are in fact opposed to them. Instead of channeling the constant rejection of their sexual advances to, say, cryptography, understanding Ovid, learning mandarin, or linear algebra, they are constantly looking to triangulate any oppression (however slight or even nonexistent) back to them, and use that to get attention. But thank goodness for ugly homosexuals…without them, there’d be no gay rights movement…as the others were far too busy with debauched profligacy to focus on improving their lot in life. Yes, the u.s. is still a homophobic apartheid nation, but not as bad…haz a milkshake, buys a truck.
I’ve been all over the PP website and I can’t find anything that says that condoms shouldn’t be used alone. I did, however, find plenty of info that said that spermicide should never be used alone.
I think Dan means most guys who get to their late 40s and are single, as in not in FOREVER AND EVER monogamous relationships are enjoying it just fine and have no manic need to pair off. From my anecdotal experience, I’d tend to agree. By that point, most guys (and girls) tend to be pretty comfortable in who they are and where they are and a permanent full time mate isn’t necessarily a requirement.
There’s a big chunk of missing information in the letter from Drowning My Sorrows. I’m surprised Dan didn’t pick up on it and ask. How did Mr. Playful Sex take the break-up? Was he ready to marry when she pulled the rug out from under him? Is he devastated? Is he bitter?
True, he’s likely still to be single in 2-3 years, but is he going to want to take her back? Does he feel like she’s running roughshod over his heart? For that matter, was he even consulted about the move and the time apart?
For all we know, at 46, he could be ready to settle down. He might be looking for The One. He might feel betrayed by the break-up and be quick to move on. We don’t know, but if any part of my (admittedly fictional but not altogether far fetched) scenario is true, Drowning may have made a real mistake.
As MG is discovering, zealots of all stripes — from put upon minorities to privileged teabaggers — are tedious, regardless of how much their audience might sympathise with their cause or concerns. What whiners in all socioeconomic groups often fail to realize, however, is how easy it is for people to simply ignore them and leave them marginalized and preaching to the choir.
Girls should not be pumping their bodies full of hormones when IUDs have been used in Europe for decades as the preferred form of birth control. IUDs plus condoms are great. Unless you’re anemic. 🙁 I’m really looking forward to husband getting the big snip when we’re done having kids.
Pulling out fucking sucks. There’s something vaguely icky about it, like the guy can’t dare to come in you because he doesn’t trust you or something I can’t quite put my finger on. Besides nothing is hotter than a man shoving good and hard and deep and exploding as he holds you so tight you can barely breathe. It’s very much a feeling of “I did a good job! :-D”
My advice to MG is the next time someone brings up how they are being oppressed, turn to them and say, “How can we stop that?”
Most people who harp on how mean the world is to them shut up when you challenge them to take action to fix the problem.
@ 13:
Technically cheating is a form of lying, if you have both explicitly agreed that you are in an exclusive relationship (a big if). However, in my experience villains very seldom see themselves as villains so don’t be surprised if the cheater has rationalize the situation to the point where he or she comes out in their mind smelling better than their own farts.
As for whether all liars cheat; maybe not. However, always watch out in any relationship with anyone you cannot implicitly trust. That is not to say that you cannot have rock’n GGG sex with a mendacious hottie, but do not leave anything that you might value, like your heart or your wallet, lying around to be mistreated.
As a resident of Bellingham, I can say with full confidence that a large part of the issue is where he’s living. I love it there, but the outrageous number of old-enough-to-know-better professional activists (of all types), combined with the typical obnoxious self-centeredness of college students, are a perfect storm for exactly the kind of incessant overpriveleged whining he describes. You learn quickly to avoid anyone with gray hair in a scraggly ponytail carrying a clipboard.
@61: There are two types of IUD – the ParaGard (copper) and the Mirena (plastic with hormones). Your anemia should only be an issue if you use the copper IUD, because it can increase bleeding during your period. The Mirena actually stops periods after a few months. I have one and LOVE it. I don’t know why more women don’t have it. The only real downside I can think of is the increased risk if an STI is contracted, but I insist on condom use and don’t really sleep around anyway, so I’m not overly worried. If you’re in a monogamous relationship and neither you nor your partner have an STI, you’re almost certainly fine.
Maybe I’m a wimp, but I know the idea of going to the doctor and getting my cervix opened up to have an IUD inserted would turn me off from ever getting one. No thanks! I love my Nuvaring.
@ 56 – That’s what underlining is for, PP.
There’s a lot of pro-IUD comments here, so I just have to chime in with my bad experience. I’m in my 20s, no children, and I had Mirena for 4 months. About a month in, my sex drive pretty much went away. When I did have sex, my boyfriend could feel the strings and it creeped him out, so I only ended up having sex a few times while on it. Good for birth control… bad for the sex life. Good to know it’s working for a lot of people, but #9’s “assembly line” quote had me a bit nervous.
RE mg,
I attended WWU between ’94 and ’98. The picture he paints is precisely the environment I experienced, though being straight I’m sure I had a different point of view. When Ellen Degeneres came out of the closet it was celebrated like the second coming of Christ. Though at heart I knew I was supportive of the LGBT cause, I was actually leery of stating what was on my mind at the time, which was “Okay, you’re gay. Big fucking deal”.
Reading this letter brought back some fond memories. Yes the weed was good. It’s good down hear in Longview too. I was also a bit turned off by all the wannabe NORML idiots dancing around chalk drawings of bongs in Red Square. Guess that makes me a right wing asshole.
But not italics or QMs? So according to you, scare quotes are grammatically incorrect. And they can be overused, but grammatically incorrect? Shaddup, stupid old gayfag.
@51, Please email Mr. Savage directly and get him introduced to someone at PP. The last letter is way off base.
Both my husband and I are allergic to nonoxynol-9. I can’t take hormones, don’t clot well, so no pill’s or IUD’s. We’ve been using lubricated condoms for 23+ years & never a pregnancy. The failure rate that is associated with condoms is really a disservice to the public.
I get that pregnancy prevention counselors have to say: “Use a condom AND spermicide.” They have to give the ironclad advice, but it’s not practical. I’m living proof you can use condoms alone for decades and not get anyone pregnant. I can attest that withdrawal works well, too, although I wouldn’t recommend using it on anyone you wouldn’t mind getting pregnant, because there’s a lot more finesse to getting it right. It’s a lot hotter than condoms, though.
@53 I had no problem getting fitted with an IUD without having had children (I’m 28 though not a teen). When I talked to the NP who fitted mine I brought up the fact it’s recommended for those with kids and she told me she fits them in teens all the time. IUDs got a bad rap because the original ones in the 70s were pretty bad but they’ve been drastically improved.
BTW my rule has always been condoms to prevent STIs and other birth control to prevent pregnancy. For a while me and my BF were actually using 3 methods, condoms, IUD, and he’s had a vasectomy. Now we’re fluid bonded so we’ve stopped using condoms but I’m keeping my IUD because I like not having periods.
@71 After 23 years why doesn’t your husband just get a vasectomy? If you aren’t planning on kids at all I don’t see why a quick outpatient procedure isn’t on the table.
@61 wendykh
Amen to getting “the big snip.” It’s the best thing I ever did to improve my sex life. Staying in to the end au natural is mind blowing. Get it done the minute you can.
I hope I don’t scare anyone with this fun fact but there is some pain post-op. Even if you aren’t into pain normally, the orgasms you have while your sack is healing are once in a lifetime powerful. I’d almost have the procedure again.
@70 Ricardo is right about the quotation marks:
Be careful not to use quotation marks in an attempt to emphasize a word (the kind of thing you see in grocery store windows—Big “Sale” Today!). Underline or italicize that word instead. (The quotation marks will suggest to some people that you are using that word in a special or peculiar way and that you really mean something else—or that your sale is entirely bogus.)
That’s from http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/m…. Other references include http://grammartips.homestead.com/general…, http://jerz.setonhill.edu/writing/gramma…, Wikipedia– basically any place that discusses punctuation. Quotation marks are not used for emphasis; underlining, italicizing and bolding are.
So scare quotes are grammatically incorrect? You, too, are a fool. And no, retardo is not right. Facts as they be.
LMABC Isn’t entirely correct. While using a condom and an independent spermicide (like a contraceptive film) MAY decrease the risk of pregnancy, spermicidal condoms (such as those often sold by trojan) are inherently problematic and increase the risk of contracting an STI.
Spermicidal condoms use the chemical nonoxynol-9 which causes micro abrasions in the vaginal canal or anus. This is problematic not only because it can be very irritating for sensitive tissue, but also because if the condom were to break it would give STIs a direct pathway into the bloodstream.
Additionally, the amount of spermicide on condoms is not actually sufficient to kill an appreciable amount of semen.
I would highly urge Dan to clarify this as spermicidal condoms are often marketed as being as effective as using a back up method, when all they due is increase irritation and risk of STI transmission.
@34 and 65
“IUD would be a good option IF women using it were 100% certain they would not get an STI. (The little string that hangs from it is a brilliant way to transmit pathogens from the vagina to the uterus and further, thus making a case of STI several times worse, in terms of symptoms and long term consequences.)”
“The only real downside I can think of is the increased risk if an STI is contracted…”
This is 100% false and extremely outdated. In the 1970s the Dalkon Shield was the first IUD introduced and it featured a braided, porous string that could wick bacteria into the uterus. This led to a disproportionate rate of Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (PID) which can lead to infertility and other complications.
This is NOT true of the modern IUDs on the market (Mirena and Paraguard). The only way that one could contract PID because of one of these IUDs is if they were to already be infected when the IUD is inserted. Because of this, doctors are scrupulous about testing patients for STIs and fully treating them prior to inserting IUDs.
@45
Trojan is the only brand of condoms I know of that still routinely uses spermicide. Brands like lifestyles, durex, and Sir Richards are just as widely available and do not use it.
@53
Many US ob/gyns do not go to their continuing education. IUDs are perfectly saf for women who haven’t given birth, although the risk of the IUD slipping out is increased by about 10%. This is more of an annoyance than anything else as the IUD would cease to be effective. Slipping is easily checked for via the string that hangs out of the cervix. The failure rate for IUDs is actually less than 1% so it’s very odd that you got pregnant while on it.
@10 – Hey TROLL, get a clue! You’ve been told repeatedly that everyone knows you’re a troll and your comments are always full of shit.
Go and make yourself useful instead of whining about how “hard you have it.”
Boo hoo, I’m a man and I have to treat others who aren’t like me with dignity and respect.
Tsk, tsk, poor baby!
Yep, we can all tell by your posts that you have low self esteem and little self respect but do try to pretend that you can imagine how others may wish to be treated.
You are a TROLL and in real life you’re bitter and hate filled. Go and work on your inner landscape.
Seriously, there guy, the only person in your head is YOU. YOU are the ONLY thing in life that you can change and when you learn that, your whole perspective will change and you will stop being so hateful.
It is astonishing that I’ve given this one minute and 27 seconds to you but I type fast.
Go and sort your head out, mate.
Nonoxynol-9 is hell. Sex is no fun when you can’t even have it.
My spouse and I have been using condoms alone for birth control for almost 30 years now. We are both allergic to spermicides. Nonetheless, we only have one child, and it was while we were trying to conceive. Condoms alone has worked pretty awesomely for us.
As for Noadi’s question of why not get snipped if we’ve had all the kids we want, I can attest that in our case our insurance won’t cover the entire cost, and what they don’t cover is a large chunk of change indeed.
@ 78 – Thanks, Chicago Girl, but by now we should all know that PP is not bothered with facts, relevance, objectivity or anything else that might make his comments interesting or valuable.
Any criticism he has of anyone else would actually be better applied to himself, IMNSHO. For instance, he says I’m “common”, but ends his remarks to me with “gayfag”… Funny, don’t you think?
And the less we pay attention to him (does anyone actually read his rants?), the more aggressive he gets. The most pathetic part is that he probably thinks I’m actually angered by what he said… when all I did was set the matter straight on punctuation, coz I hate leaving any doubt about my gayness (and coz after 25 years of correcting faulty punctuation, I’m pretty good at it).
Count me in the anti-spermicide camp, though I’m pretty sure I’ve actually never used it; increased STI risk and irritation are not worth it. But neither is pregnancy, which is why I got my tubes tied* at 24**. I still love condoms, for the easy clean-up.
*Technically, blocked not tied, yay Essure.
**Thank you, fuss-free Seattle docs.
How are facts, relevance, and objectivity a part of the misapplication of a misunderstood rule of grammar on both of your parts? Let’s go back to what I wrote to clear this up for you complete fucking morons. See, you give a moron access to the internet, and they get to misuse all sorts of rules by misidentifying all sorts of patterns.
“QMs can be used to draw attention to a word by the writer.”
That’s true on whatever rules for question marks you’re proposing. If you’re suggesting an obscure meaning for a word, then it’s used to draw attention to it. Let’s not even go into its uses for irony and sarcasm, turnips (which would correspond to my use of it). And in this, I used a question mark to draw attention to the word “gay,” and it was legitimate–a reference to a previous exchange with retardo. The end, stupids.
@78 (and Ricardo) Amen! That’s always been one of my English major pet peeves. You have the “best” fried chicken in the city?? Are you secretly acknowledging the fact that in all probability you don’t? Quotes imply skepticism or, you know, a quote. Try all caps, underline, or even italics for emphasis.
(BTW PP if you missed the implication: you are an idiot.)
quotation marks even.
The point is that I’m correct, and you’re a gayfag. There is no legitimate dispute here about my use of quotation marks.
@35, your information on the IUD string wicking bacteria into the uterus is several decades out of date. Modern IUDs have a monofilament that is not susceptible to wicking, and thus the only time PID is really an increased risk is during or within a month of insertion. (So get STI tested before insertion, and be wise all the time, but especially right after!)
Also–and this is really cool–the Mirena creates a mucus plug in the cervix that actually reduces the PID risk below Paragard and non-IUD levels.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=IUD+…
http://www.ippf.org/en/Resources/Guides-…
@ 87 – From what we can see @ 88 and 89, he missed it. And he’s too much of an idiot to ever get it.
He thinks that the mere act of saying “I’m right” actually makes him right, in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
And really, what can we expect from someone who thinks telling a gay man that he’s a “gayfag” will get that gay man all worked up? It’s just laughable.
Laughable. Indeed. LOL!
I could never do an IUD.
The thought of an foreign plastic of metal object in that part of my body is deeply disturbing to me. I’m suprised other women don’t feel the same. The diagrams of them disgust me – and this is coming from someone who looks at medical pictures a lot.
@83: I got snipped at Planned Parenthood for free… have you checked them out?
@87 “try caps” (rather than QM) for emphasis.
Please, oh please refrain. The density of caps in last weeks discussion was close on unbearable. Thoughtful reasonable prose works for me IN LOWER CASE PLEASE!!!! (and without exclamation marks)
The thought of an foreign plastic of metal object in that part of my body is deeply disturbing to me. I’m suprised other women don’t feel the same.
[Raises hand and waves it wildly] ME! ME! The thought of someone shoving a spring into my fucking cervix makes me wanna faint while barfing.
Although I’ve never tried hormonal birth control, I’m sure it would fuck me up (because everything fucks me up – I am The Girl Who is Allergic to Everything). And I don’t want to use anything that I have to rummage around in my vag to remove (diaphragms, sponges).
So basically for me it’s all condoms, all the time. And I’m 38 and have never gotten pregnant.
@91: As the graffiti on the wall outside my local gay bar used to say, “Fags Are Gay.”
Where do people get the idea that it’s ok to use quotation marks for emphasis? God, it’s like everyone failed grade 5.
On that note, how do you make text bold or italic on here?
I had the greatest revelation and answer to all queries… but I got on late and had to read all before, then puffed and sipped… I just remember 10’s idea to ‘get over it and quit bitchin,,,Well, open up then the gas chambers, closets, jails, wider… because that is just what keeping quiet does. So keep it down !!!
@ 80, I’m always looking forward to learning new things but I am not sure I can trust what you’re saying about the safety of IUDs until I’ve seen some research that confirms it. So where do you get your information from? Right now, the official Mirena website states things like:
“Use of Mirena and other IUDs has been associated with an increased risk of PID”
and
“Mirena is not appropriate for women who can get infections easily. For example, if you have more than one sexual partner or your partner has more than one partner, problems with your immune system, leukemia, AIDS, intravenous drug abuse”
Why are these limiting factors if the infection won’t spread to the uterus and beyond? You can be on the pill if you get infections easily, why can’t you get an IUD?
@ 93, I feel the same way about it, and I could never get breast implants either, sadly 😛
@99 tiare
“I could never get breast implants either, sadly”
I don’t know you or what your body issues might be, but I think small breasts are exquisite!
@96 “makes me want to faint while barfing” is possibly the best description I’ve ever heard.
I’ve been using hormonal birth control for what feels like ages now and I like it but I’m too flaky to be a good pill-taker so I use condoms too for the bulk of the time.
I was shocked to read up there that condoms alone should never be used? What? Isn’t that what the majority of young people use? I know that’s what I used when I was young and my mom wouldn’t let me go on the pill.
@99
I’m with you – and I agree about the breast implants but I wouldn’t want them anyway. I’m one of those reeeally rare girls that is happy with her breast size. And you should be too. I mean really, when was the last time you looked at a woman and thought “she’d look better with bigger cans”. This is all assuming that Mr. J read you right and you weren’t just being self-deprecating for humour.
Dan, thank you so much for the link to the SEAL. It might be a leap a faith, but I do believe I’m in love with this scrumptious creature–seen only from the back yet!
Dan – “Santorum was the only presidential candidate to attend the South Carolina party’s annual dinner on Friday night. He won 150 out of 408 votes cast in the presidential preference poll of dinner attendees.” Can you believe it?
In regards to the first letter, I think it is good to teach college students that while they may be a member of an oppressed group they themselves may not be oppressed.
“Borrowing oppression” comes off as tiresome at best and if the person is obnoxious on top of it can drive people way/against a cause.
I can still remember a coworker from college who was a WMST major who was the prototype of the young, hostile feminist. She would make accusations and collect injustices on a daily basis. She would go on and on about how oppressed she way and how privileged I was. She grew up in a rich family going to private schools and was at my Big State U because she couldn’t be bothered to study. Her male opressor father paid almost every bill she had.
Despite knowing better intellectually, it took me years to get it out of my gut that feminists weren’t self entitled narcissists .
Dan – “Santorum was the only presidential candidate to attend the South Carolina party’s annual dinner on Friday night. He won 150 out of 408 votes cast in the presidential preference poll of dinner attendees.” What’s up?
Aww thanks Mr. J and mydriasis, I agree with you most of the time (being the bra hater that I am, whenever I think it would be nice to have larger breasts, I remind myself that I would then have to wear that godawful contraption daily, and my satisfaction with my rack size is restored :P)
@103 “I’m one of those reeeally rare girls that is happy with her breast size” – congratulations, and I really wish that people wouldn’t worry about it. I suspect that women think that guys like large breasts far more than is true.
My meticulous scientific observations (and they have been as detailed as possible given propriety) – is that breasts come in all shapes and sizes, and, at least for me, I think they’re all wonderful.
wendy: ITA about having the guy explode inside you! Freakin HAWT! And such a sense of accomplishment ;). While facials and their ilk are fun for variety, I prefer the inside explosion and its feeling of “I did it for him” that comes (pardon the pun) along with it. Its just not the same intensity when he jacks it on you.
I have heard other men say that about the snip: orgasms immediately after were horrifically painful (but it went away). I even had one guy tell me it lessened the intensity a bit.
Well, *ahem*, that is just one of the reasons I volunteered to be the one to have it done. And I LOVE it!!! Tubals rock, and more statistically effective then the V.
And as far as the all cheaters being liars (of course I would have something to say about this!)? Well, of course cheating neccessitates some lying, but for some of us, that is actually the worst part of it. I know some people prefer to view the world in black and white; ohhhh….cheater…..evil!!!!!! So therefore, someone who cheats must be a dirty rotten habitual liar at all times in their lives. But for those who might have evolved past this level of thinking, and realized the world holds shades of grey, or perhaps even various colors…its not always like that. In fact, I know two cheaters who are pretty honest people most of the time *grin*, and I know of some pretty habitual liars I am pretty sure are faithful (although who knows? I am not with them 24/7).
@106 “the prototype of the young, hostile feminist” – my daughter told me about such a colleague complaining about the gender pay gap. Not only was she exaggerating the statistic (which is itself very prone to abuse and does not mean what most people think it means), she also ignored the reality that young women now are better educated than young men and – according to those same statistics – are higher paid.
Like you say, this is likely to incline others away from a cause, and one of my pet hates is abuse of statistics like that by anyone.
RAHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRR!!!!! This week, Dan devotes damn near an entire column to It Gets Better. Last week, he answered a letter about abortion saying NOTHING about the unified federal & now state-wide attacks on abortion rights. WTF? I have marched my ass off, phone banked my ass off & petitioned my ass for gay rights before it was popular in straight America. The Senate is voting AGAIN – for the 3rd time in a month – on defunding Planned Parenthood. Indiana just abolished funding & demanded women be told life starts at conception & outlawed abortions past 20 weeks, even in the case of rape. Where the hell are the gays at?! Dan, WTF?!
BTW, I am not an angry young feminist – I’m usually an incredibly easy going young feminist. I don’t rely on statistics or past oppressions of my gender to inform how I live today – I do my best & work my butt off.
I am ANGRY at the very real personal attacks on my right to choose, attacks on my healthcare and overall attack on my value, just like you all get angry the HRC doesn’t support trans-rights.
Call your Senator & Rep! http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_in…
@103 “my mom wouldn’t let me go on the pill.”
That’s brilliant.
@113 Stay focused, don’t target our allies:
http://tinyurl.com/joemygod-satan
http://tinyurl.com/LGBT-planned-parentho…
http://tinyurl.com/LGBT-billboards
@99 I have huge tits and an ass I’ve worked for with blood sweat and tears. My experience is that most men are ass men.
You can get a much higher level of male attention from working on your squat depth than you’ll get from large breasts.
Mine are real so they’re heavy and come with shoulder and back problems that make me want a reduction. I don’t have the slightest worry about my husband finding me less attractive if I do. He, like every other man I’ve ever dated, is focused on something else.
I can not stress this enough. Squats, not saline. Trust me.
I dunno, I bought mine and I love them, and the guys seem to as well ;). BUT!!! I think it all depends on how you are built. I am a tall girl, and just never seemed to fill out as I should have as I went through puberty, so I think I was just correcting what mother nature should have given me in the first place to balance out my frame.
I think it looks ridiculous when a tiny, petite gal walks around with size F’s ala Heidi Montag.
@111 badgirl
I’m not sure if you’re referencing my comment about vasectomy. I meant to say it was a very good kind of painful. Mind blowing good. I’m sorry the guys you know had the other kind of pain. Also, even though I’m kinky I’m not normally a pain slut so I was surprised by the experience.
It’s always great to hear you share your views on cheating. I’m neither a liar nor a cheater though I think my life might be better if I was capable of those things. At least the passage of years has given me perspective on the shades of gray. Thanks.
Mr. J…yeah, I knew a guy who told me he literally threw up after his first post-V orgasm. I was assuming you were like him. Glad to hear your experience was more pleasant, lol! But thank you for clearing up the confusion, and thanks for keeping an open mind. I know in my youth, I was certainly one of the ones who thought “cheaters bad”…so I don’t judge too harshly. Its something that is hard to understand until you have been through it. And not fun to go through certainly…so maybe your life is better the way it is now, you never know. Its a rollercoaster ride, that is for sure!
*Sigh*
I can’t even bring myself to try today. Slog, run wild with unexamined privilege, thoughtlessly universalized and essentialized identity/categorical delineations, and culturally-institutionalized racism/classism/sexism/heterosexism/etc. I’m getting lunch.
Oh, and PP definitely is supposed to (and does, as far as my experience and that of people with whom I’ve discussed the subject) consider/discuss condoms alone and condoms with various spermicides (a lot of people seem to be considering Nonoxynol-9 to be the only spermicide out there – it isn’t).
ungh. that’s Bellingham for you.
Agreed on DMSIG outlook: if he’s still running around at 46, he’s not that likely to rake root over the next year or two. Have fun and see whether the stars align again location wise. If they do, you’ll know to hold on to him this time around. http://www.bulletmouth.com
@111/117: Tubals are more effective than a vasectomy? At least one thing I’ve read says the opposite: http://www.vasectomy-information.com/art…
And my post-vasectomy orgasms were not painful at all. They were extremely pleasurable, because I hadn’t come for a few days, because my dick was covered up and hence extra sensitive, and probably the swelling made it better as well.
The anesthesia injection was extremely painful (I made him give me extra cause I’m super sensitive to pain), the surgery itself was painless, the week afterwards was pretty painful, the second week was mildly painful, and after two weeks there was no more pain.
to chime into the IUD conversation: I have had bad reaction to multiple types of hormonal BC (zero sex drive, yeast infections, flat/depressed mood), and allergic to spermicide (have to buy un-lubed condoms). The paragard (copper) IUD has been wonderful. I love having a non-hormonal, very secure method that does not require noxious chemicals or coitus interruptus.
The advice about the spermicide is SO SO SO bad! I seriously am shocked that you printed that, Dan.
To LMABC: I couldn’t find a figure on the percentage of folks who react to Nonoxynol-9 badly, but it’s high! Everything from a mildly itchy cooter to severe vaginal ulceration — and that’s why using it can actually increase your risk of contracting an STI (especially HPV, which often isn’t covered by a condom). Unless you’re one of the lucky few with a magical cast-iron crotch that can withstand the chemical assault (and in my 35 years of being “that chick that’s always talking about sexual health and birth control and way too much TMI,” I’ve met maybe 3 or 4 people who can), it seems like a worse bet than just a plain condom. Maybe your info is out of date?
@35:
I’m pretty sure that oral sex is pretty damn close to 100% effective for birth control (you’d have to be doing it pretty badly to fuck that up), but anal is… dubious. In fact, I’ve tried searching for numbers on this method as birth control, but I don’t think there have actually been any studies. Also, the number of women who only do anal or oral as a birth control method is pretty small.
Either way, I suspect that the numbers are around the same for condoms. It’s not entirely impossible for sperm to make their way back into the vagina from there.
@91 – Oh, Ricardo, how happy it made me to see you use quotation marks in EACH of the two correct ways within your comment. See, I just giggled again; it’s that good.
Kisses and good grammar to you!
@24 What you said about the string of the IUD wicking pathogens into the uterus was true of the Dalcon shield IUD but is not true of current models. They are not made of materials that wick. This issue is that it provides no protection from STIs. So while it’s fantastic for pregnancy prevention if you’re not monogamous and totally sure of your partner’s monogamy as well you need to use something else to provide a barrier to infection.
I love the pocket cartoon next to the article – sums the issue up perfectly for me.
To my mind the struggle is far from over, and the isolationists who just want to bask in the sunshine already achieved are doing a serious disservice to themselves and the rest of LGB humanity. When I was 18 back in 1965 I wrote my first cheque to the Homosexual Law Reform Society to get gay sex leglised (in the U.K. where I live). I little realised that 46 years later I would be working voluntarily for its successor Stonewall (UK). Sit on your butt if you wish and spoke yourself silly on weed, but one day you may recall that pocket cartoon and rue your idleness when you find you cannot marry or claim the body of your loved one from the hospital and so on.
@99
A quick google search found this quote on the CDC website:
“The risk of PID associated with IUD use is primarily confined to the first 3 weeks after insertion and is uncommon thereafter”
Here is the source:
Grimes DA. Intrauterine device and upper-genital-tract infection. Lancet 2000;356:1013–9. http://www.cdc.gov/std/treatment/2006/pi…
It shouldn’t be difficult to find further corroborating studies if you’re interested. Also, the increased risk of PID is during the time immediately after the IUD has been inserted because if one has an STI at the time of insertion, it can be pushed up through the cervix into the upper reproductive tract causing PID. Again, that’s why extensive testing is typically done prior to insertion.
@119
Nonoxynol-9 is the only spermicide used in the United States on condoms.
Yeesh, PugilistPuck, I was only trying to tell you that when you use scare quotes, you aren’t saying what you think you are saying. It’s a simple matter of grammar, so why get so bent out of shape?
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Granted my empirical sample size is extremely small, but the first few post V clip orgasms were spectacular in both size and enjoyment according to the owner. Still, it is something that gets multiple praises of thanksgiving on a regular basis. Just my $0.02.
Kim,
Did he get the clips or is that just poetic license? I got the more permanent solution.
I find that snippet confusing, they quote two studies to support their claim, the 2000 study finds that the IUD doesn’t affect fertility (could it be because doctors had been recommending it to monogamous women with a low risk of contracting STIs?) and the 2005 one states things like
“IUD users with PID had significantly more Fusobacteria spp. and Peptostreptococcus spp. than non-IUD users with PID. The finding of combinations of several anaerobic or aerobic microbes was associated with a significantly increased risk of PID and with complicated PID. In IUD users, the combinations of several anaerobic/aerobic microbes were associated with an increased risk of PID, irrespective of duration of IUD use. Long-term IUD use appeared to be associated with an increased risk of a PID being complicated.”
It would probably be clearer if I had access to full text, not just abstracts.
Frankly, I’d still rather take the maker’s word for it and not use their product if I wasn’t in a monogamous STI-free relationship – why else would they say they don’t recommend it to women who are at a risk of contracting an STI? There are several different ways to word it if an IUD wasn’t a concern for PID: for example,
“not recommended for women who have an STI at the time of insertion”, or
“not recommended for women who might be exposed to an STI within three weeks after insertion”.
(Btw that 2000 study found that the same % of women with asymptomatic chlamydia or gonorrhea will get PID with and without the IUD insertion, what does that mean? If you already have an STI having an IUD fitted won’t raise your risk of getting PID? I would hesitate to call it conclusive finding.)
Mr. J,
Poetic license. It was the no going back version.
Kim,
I see. I was just curious if there was a difference in the pain.
@132 – hope we helped a little.
At EricaP and Mr.J,
Yes, I was involved in such a way it was possible to register the volume difference. And, once or twice wasn’t enough. Seeing as our experience of pain and our ability to tolerate it can differ widly from one person to another it likely can’t be compared. He wouldn’t choose the word “pain” to discribe it, “intense” would be his word of choice. It was like nothing he had ever experienced before or since. And, worth every dime and bit of discomfort in his opinion.
I hope that answers your questions as that’s about as much as I can say with his okay.
@114
we were all teenagers once weren’t we? for whatever reason that was something I wanted her go-ahead on. which is weird because the premarital sex was one of the less-scandalous things I was up to at that age.
@116
okay straight up – to squats actually INCREASE the size of your butt because I’ve heard conflicting things. I’m a skinny girl (fast metabolism type) who lucked out in the breast department but I’d love love love to have more going on in the ass department. Basically I’m worried that squats will burn fat in that area? I have zero interest in replacing fat with muscle, I just want bigger! 🙁
“best” fried chicken
best “fried” chicken
best fried “‘chicken”
@140 – I meant to mock the “brilliant” decision by your mother, not you! Discouraging teens from getting birth control when they ask for it seems like a really bad idea. (Said as the mom of a preteen girl…)
oh gosh, that too.
in fairness I would probably want suggest against any teenager using ONLY the pill which is what I tried to explain to my mom when my little sister made the same request a few years later.
but hey, the upside was that if I ever have kids I’ll have a long what-not-to-do list?
Tiare, the bottom of my post linked to a Google Scholar search where you can read any abstract, most of which uphold that claim. Also, the second link has references at the bottom. If I start pulling stuff, I’ll be here all night.
As for what the makers say, remember how much of a litigious society we are. They cover their butt for many things, including asserting that nulliparous women can’t have iuds. Other countries do not have this regulatory restriction (I’m thinking Canada and the UK), and many places in the US give NP women IUDs. Myriad studies in this century have shown that NP women have only a slightly (barely significant or not sig) higher risk of expulsion, and no decrease in future fertility. But the US Mirena still says that they’re not recommended for NP women.
Anyway, on the squick factor: It’s definitely not for everyone! But the IUD squicked me less than the thought of Implanon, and I can’t do daily pills. I’m a year into my Mirena, and am pretty happy with my choice. (Also, no PID, even though I had yeast and BV at insertion! Hooray drugs.)
re – horrifically painful first few orgasms post-vasectomy: sounds like somebody didn’t wait long enough for the healing process to complete, as per the post-op instructions sheet.
@140: Everyone on the planet should be doing squats if they are physically able. They build muscle all over your body, especially your lower body. They work the gluteus muscle, which will make your ass more muscular.
Having more muscle will burn more calories, which can reduce the fat you have. But there’s no such thing as fat spot reduction: that is, any exercise you do will burn fat all over your body, not just near the muscle you work.
You should definitely do squats: aside from the health benefits, they will make your already impossibly perfect body even better.
@145: I waited about 2-3 days, much less than the post-op instructions, and had no pain during orgasms. They were just very pleasurable. The only pain was when I wasn’t having orgasms.
hmmmmm, the stats I have always heard regarding the V vs tubals was 1% failure rate for V’s vs. a 0.1% rate for tubals. But frankly, I am too lazy to look it up for sources. Eh, its been working for me. Perhaps one of the really serious debaters here is less lazy then me, or one of the sex-educators has a reference on hand.
And my quote on the horrible pain/lessened sensation was taken from a completely non-scientific source: one dude, lol! So yeah. But hearing the story scarred me a little, perhaps his procedure was even botched somehow? I dunno, merely anecdotal. But since it was such an intense anecdote, I doubt I will be forgetting it anytime soon ;).
@140 I agree with what BlackRose said. Your body doesn’t metabolize it’s own fat that way. Muscles that need energy don’t just dip into the nearest fat stores. It’s way more complicated than that. It’s sort of like thinking that any federal aid money Washington gets probably comes from Federal taxes paid by Oregon’s population.
Also, if you are skinny, replacing fat with muscle will require some crazy Natalie Portman’s Black Swan training/diet plan. Women don’t put on muscle or lose fat that easily.
Most likely scenario is that squatting will, over time, add muscle without removing fat such that it makes your butt a little bigger. You will not get a badonk out of it. That’s genetics.
You’re definitely gonna get a firmer, more shapely ass.
@140
BlackRose and shw3nn are right about the squats. I’d suggest going to a personal trainer, at least for a couple of sessions, so that you can find a workout and/or diet regiment that works for you. You can get a trainer at whatever local gym you use, and a couple of sessions shouldn’t break the bank–I use LA Fitness, and they have a free training session for new members. It really does make all the difference.
@126: It wouldn’t surprise me if the efficacy of anal as a birth control method depends heavily on position. In missionary, gravity will pull any post-coital semen leakage away from the vagina; in doggystyle, the opposite happens. Conception is already well-known to be at least somewhat position-dependent: women who get up immediately after sex and go to the bathroom have lower pregnancy rates than women who stay supine, tilt their hips back and wait a while.
It’s unfortunate that conventional portrayals of heterosexual anal sex are almost exclusively of the “grab your ankles” sort, because anal sex in missionary position has one hell of a lot to recommend it. Every woman I’ve been with has strongly preferred it both for physical and psychological reasons, to the point of being orgasmic in one position but not the other.
My advice on building up specific areas of your body is to add weights to what you’re doing. If you can do more than say 10 reps you’re building endurance not strength. You don’t need muscle mass for endurance.
Truthfully though try not to obsess. Accept instead. Is altering your body what you want to look back on as a major use of your time?
Another plus of muscle mass besides a higher metabolism is studies indicate that muscle mass improves your bodies immune response, helps maintain bone mass, and helps keep fat off of internal organs which us thought to be linked to certain cancers.
Exercise makes me feel lovely inside and out. Plus, I think hot, sweaty, and dirty is a wonderful way to be. Of course, the post workout chill is not pleasant.
Post-exercise you should be wrapping yourself with your man, Kim. That keeps the chill off and it’s one of the best times to do it.
Yes, briny is a good, Mr. J. Especially after dancing the Samba. Sadly he’s working when I come out of the studio. So, I must warm up with a shower, warm drink, and climb into/onto (sometimes I end up jumping around) bed with my bass and playin’ the blues. Today it’s slow blues, I’m playing along to T-Bone Walker’s “Stormy Monday Blues”. But, I’ll give him your suggestion, love.
Spermicide — ouch! Thanks for the UTI’s and burning crotch. N-9 made me FEEL like I had an STI, and is responsible for UTI’s.
To weigh in on the IUD debate: I had the Mirena for a year and a half. I thought it was great for awhile, then the hormones screwed me up worse than any other form of hormonal birth control I have ever used — increased bladder infections, dry eye, depression, low libido: the works. Anecdotal, I know, but never again. Paragard is hormone-free and probably would have been a better option for me.
My long term BF and I use exclusively condoms without spermicide and withdrawal. No pregancy scares so far! And I feel so much better sexually, physically, and emotionally. Some of us are too sensitive to hormones and spermicides to fool around with other forms of birth control.
@156: Vasectomies for the win.
@61 “Girls should not be pumping their bodies full of hormones when IUDs have been used in Europe for decades as the preferred form of birth control”
Huh ? You mean, married woman who don’t want any more kids ? Because for girls, it’s still the pill here in Europe.
As for spermicide, I’m happy to learn here that it can hurt before I ever tried it. I’ll stick to condoms and withdrawal !
Thanks for the input everyone, but wow, no.
Basically what you’re saying is it might increase the size slightly but it WILL make me burn more fat, which is what I don’t want. (And no, I don’t want to lose it off anywhere else in my body)
I actually hate exercise so much so unless it’s going to give me something I REALLY want I’m not going to do it.
Thanks for clearing it up though!
What? No, you got it backwards. It WILL build your ass and it will hardly burn any fat. Any exercise you do will burn a little fat
@161 You a dude?
I just want to add my two cents to the HBC discussion… I am a nulliparous (lovely word) 26 year old and I heart my Mirena IUD, and have had it for 4+ years. Stopped having periods about 4 months post-insertion. Will probably pop out a kid or two (if I’m lucky) at the 5 year removal mark and then get another IUD put in once I’m done. It’s really a great device and I agree with others who have remarked that the bad rap IUDs had back in the day, while warranted (I was born to an 80’s IUD user myself) has prevented a lot of women from using a now very reliable and hassle-free form of birth control. Keep in mind, too, that if your partner gets poked by the string during sex, your OB/GYN can snip it shorter for you. I didn’t need to have that done, much to my surprise, but apparently it’s a very straightforward process. I’ll also say that I had my IUD inserted under general anesthesia since I was also having a D&C done for other reasons, so I can’t say how uncomfortable the typical office insertion is. I felt groggy for about a day and then good as new. Sure beats the blood clot in my leg and 4 days spent with a Heparin IV while on Yasmin.
God Damn, how I wish more people would say “STFU, we’re doing just fine, you white, upper-class American kids” cause I for one am so sick of people with an agenda tacked onto the front of their name. Anyone, anymore who says “I’m Phil-in-the-Blank” completely loses me. And you know why? Because those people don’t give a shit about me or you or anything other then what they want. The Gay PAC here got a law passed that made it manditory for school officials to deal with gay kids being bullied. Fine. But what about MY kid. They could have/should have made a law protecting all kids from harassment, but in the end they only cared about them and theirs. And that goes for every group with an agenda. So don’t ask me for donations or to march in your marches because if I need you, you sure as shit won’t be there for me.
@164, yes, of course groups with an agenda focus on their members’ needs and wants. That’s why they came together as a group and built an agenda.
One reason gay groups want laws requiring that schools deal with gay kids being bullied is that not all gay kids have parents like you, who will fight for their kids. Too many parents might say, “Well, if you weren’t queer, they wouldn’t pick on you.” Too many kids don’t feel they’re able to come out to their parents.
If you think a law requiring schools to deal with all cases of bullying is a good idea, why don’t YOU go fight for it? Maybe your PTA is a good place to start.
One year ago the right to get married was recognized in Argentina to LGTB people, and yes, for many of us things got better. However, a week ago Carlos Aguero, a 17 years old teenager who was perceived as gay by his schoolmates, hanged himself after years of bullying at school. Although in his small town the voices that claim for the responsability of teachers and authorities are trying to be silenced, slowly his death became visible to the national media, which means that things got better, but not enought to prevent Carlos to take his life away. (http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/suplem….
One year ago the right to get married was recognized in Argentina to LGTB people, and yes, for many of us things got better. However, a week ago Carlos Aguero, a 17 years old teenager who was perceived as gay by his schoolmates, hanged himself after years of bullying at school. Although in his small town the voices that claim for the responsability of teachers and authorities are trying to be silenced, slowly his death became visible to the national media, which means that things got better, but not enought to prevent Carlos to take his life away. (http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/suplem….
I love how planned parenthood likes to push women into messing around with their hormones (pill, iud, patch, shot, etc.) and inserting chemicals into themselves (spermicide).
The idea that condoms used by themselves are not a good ‘method’ is ludicrous. From personal experience, whenever I have been in a planned parenthood the ‘educators’ have always tried me to go with iud or shot because then my hormones are fucked up for a good set amount of time, implying of course that my partner and myself could never be so responsible as to use a condom 100% of the time (we do).
Stop looking down on me PP!
I love how planned parenthood likes to push women into messing around with their hormones (pill, iud, patch, shot, etc.) and inserting chemicals into themselves (spermicide).
The idea that condoms used by themselves are not a good ‘method’ is ludicrous. From personal experience, whenever I have been in a planned parenthood the ‘educators’ have always tried me to go with iud or shot because then my hormones are fucked up for a good set amount of time, implying of course that my partner and myself could never be so responsible as to use a condom 100% of the time (we do).
Stop looking down on me PP!
What I find a bit sad about too many mod’ren queer-letter-salad activists is that they’ve got no grasp of their own history. Maybe they’ve heard of Stonewall. But Harry Hay? The Mattachine Society? Daughters of Bilitis? Mention that no self-respecting queer was having mimosas with brunch in 1977 and you’ll get a blank stare (and if you’re giving me one now, Google Anita Bryant and orange juice).
My point is that far too many people in this country are looking for reasons to validate themselves and their identities through the mechanisms of oppression, and that’s easy to do when you haven’t really learned where you’ve come from.
Admittedly, learning about gay history isn’t easy. AIDS didn’t just kill queers, it killed our elders. It mowed down a huge swath of the people who marched, who rioted, who knew how to read handkerchief code, and who remembered bar raids and paddy-wagons full of business-suited gay men hiding their faces from the cameras. A whole generation’s worth of history and stories was wiped out. Gone. Never to be regained except through research. There are very few people left to tell the young ones how it was, and just how good they *do* have it today.
Dan and MG are both right. For far too many people, not enough has changed. But the vast numbers of us who have gained so much from the sacrifices of those who came before have an obligation that we owe to those who are still suffering and to those who are gone: serve the former, and honor the latter, by recognizing our strength.
I say all this as someone who’s not an old-timer. I’m 39. But every day I’m thankful that I do not have a torturous coming out story, that I’ve never been the victim of violence, and that I have the confidence to laugh in the face of bigots (provided they’re, you know, unarmed). All of that has very little to do with me, and *everything* to do with the people in the past who were beaten, who bled, who marched, who fought for the most basic of the rights that I now enjoy.
And for those who think I’m being naïve, and that I just don’t get how bad it is for people…you know what? Fantastic. Things have improved to the point where I get more flack from gay folks because of where I fall on the Kinsey scale than I do from straights, and I can afford to be starry-eyed, optimistic, and out without worrying about getting arrested, fired, or run out of town.
It gets better?
It *is* better.
What I find a bit sad about too many mod’ren queer-letter-salad activists is that they’ve got no grasp of their own history. Maybe they’ve heard of Stonewall. But Harry Hay? The Mattachine Society? Daughters of Bilitis? Mention that no self-respecting queer was having mimosas with brunch in 1977 and you’ll get a blank stare (and if you’re giving me one now, Google Anita Bryant and orange juice).
My point is that far too many people in this country are looking for reasons to validate themselves and their identities through the mechanisms of oppression, and that’s easy to do when you haven’t really learned where you’ve come from.
Admittedly, learning about gay history isn’t easy. AIDS didn’t just kill queers, it killed our elders. It mowed down a huge swath of the people who marched, who rioted, who knew how to read handkerchief code, and who remembered bar raids and paddy-wagons full of business-suited gay men hiding their faces from the cameras. A whole generation’s worth of history and stories was wiped out. Gone. Never to be regained except through research. There are very few people left to tell the young ones how it was, and just how good they *do* have it today.
Dan and MG are both right. For far too many people, not enough has changed. But the vast numbers of us who have gained so much from the sacrifices of those who came before have an obligation that we owe to those who are still suffering and to those who are gone: serve the former, and honor the latter, by recognizing our strength.
I say all this as someone who’s not an old-timer. I’m 39. But every day I’m thankful that I do not have a torturous coming out story, that I’ve never been the victim of violence, and that I have the confidence to laugh in the face of bigots (provided they’re, you know, unarmed). All of that has very little to do with me, and *everything* to do with the people in the past who were beaten, who bled, who marched, who fought for the most basic of the rights that I now enjoy.
And for those who think I’m being naïve, and that I just don’t get how bad it is for people…you know what? Fantastic. Things have improved to the point where I get more flack from gay folks because of where I fall on the Kinsey scale than I do from straights, and I can afford to be starry-eyed, optimistic, and out without worrying about getting arrested, fired, or run out of town.
It gets better?
It *is* better.
“Having more muscle will burn more calories, which can reduce the fat you have.”
(Don’t want)
“Most likely scenario is that squatting will, over time, add muscle without removing fat such that it makes your butt a little bigger. You will not get a badonk out of it. That’s genetics.”
The risk of losing fat on the parts of my body where I do want it and the fact that I hate exercise means that it’s just not worth it if it’s just a small increase.
Back around 1970ishorsomewherearoundthere , as a fresh faced college freshman cocksucker wannabe from a small town patriotic heartland, I took offense to a professor’s dissing of the good ol’ USA and made my displeasure known. I cannot remember his name now partly because the weed was even better then. MG’s “don’t worry, be happy” youthful hopeful point of view reminds me of the professor’s retort as I recall it: “Just because you are on top of the shit pile, doesn’t mean you smell good yet”. The simple point made a lasting impression. My own big gay life turned out not terrible, hottie partner of 35 years, families like each other, inspiring teenage son, – great friends, big house, lots of toys, but I still have public parameters my straight neighbor does not. And while it pisses me off on rare occasions that I can’t hold my partner’s hand in public, what pisses me off even more is that the conditioning has become so much a part of me, that it only rarely pisses me off. Whatever token gains we’ve made, the nameless faceless shadows could be only a few cups of tea away. But MG should be having fun at this stage, the layers will stack up soon enough. The front lines aren’t for everyone..ditch the downers, good luck, never get old, get a good job and write us a big fat check later on.
@168/9: not quite sure what you’re trying to say. IUDs are non-hormonal, and many forms of birth control are more effective than condoms over the long-term, though you are right that condoms are very effective if used correctly every time. I have a hard time believing that PP jumps on you and demands that you take hormonal bc every time you come in, but maybe you should listen to them, because you are maybe not too well informed, since hormonal bc is more effective than condoms and it’s not because your hormones are somehow “fucked up” (?????) but I assume that they are simply trying to explain that there are *many* different methods of bc, and hormonal or iud plus condom is more effective htan condom alone. which is true.
# 173:
So what about your life is a radical breakthrough from your salad days other than being a partner of someone of the same sex?
Is your sexual orientation the most truthful label for your core being?
When activists use ‘we’ to describe the group they represent, I only hope they’re talking about people they know personally.
Being gay entails being part of at least one of a multiplex of shared social environments. However an unknown number of people don’t fit under that umbrella and don’t label themselves such. In addition, many who do don’t want what you’ve got. Not that there’s anything wrong with it.
MG–hang in there, bud. You’ve just gotta assert yourself and tell those snotty rich kids to chill. They eventually do back off.
DAN!!! When are you going on MTV???
You ROCK!!!!
I’m not gay, and I live in Kansas, plus I’m active duty military, but I HAVE lived in Bellingham, and although this post is probably pointless, I think your probably pretty good off being gay in Bham. Imagine being a homo where I’m at. Gay’s are so suppressed here. They may lynch you for listening to European techno with your headphones in.
@177: Raul, you have my deepest sympathy. Living in suppression of any kind sucks.
@53, my doctor recommended the IUD to me. Then a nurse I saw later really raised her eyebrows when I told her I had an IUD but had never had a child. She said it was ‘not recommended by the manufacturer’ but couldn’t say why. I asked the doctor, and she said that it’s only not recommended because IUDs bring, to all women, an increased risk of infertility, which is seen as not so bad if you’ve already had kids, but really bad if you haven’t. So according to her, the restrictions have more to do with social than medical factors.
@53, @179 — The teenagers who are being given IUDs “assembly line style” are overwhelmingly poor and nonwhite… i.e. not the ones that the social powers that be particularly *want* procreating in the future. If they end up infertile, what’s the big deal?
It’s pretty widespread in less-privileged communities across the country and the parents and teenagers in question are being given biased/incomplete information on the whole.
“These over privileged fucks live in the richest country in the world and spend their time whining constantly about how bad they have it. I think if we took the time we all collectively spend whining and moaning about how this group gets this and this group doesn’t get that and spent it on science(and I am talking about REAL science NOT Women’s or African American studies) we would have transporters and warp drive by now. Beam me up Scotty- there’s no intelligent life down here.’
But why on earth would scientists invent anything new or eradicate diseases when they have “professors” like you telling them to shut up and be happy with their lot – after all, they might be sanitation workers!
There will always be people worse off, and people better off. Telling people they can’t complain or fight to better their lot because somewhere there’s a starving AIDS orphan who will always have a worse life is the lowest of the low.
Another thing to keep in mind is just because those kids are attending college in a liberal town doesn’t mean that they’ve always lived in a place like that. A lot of kids escape to more liberal places from much more conservative parts of the country. I go to college in a liberal big city on the East Coast, and I know plenty of LGBT people who are not out because they can’t risk going back to Texas/Colorado/Oklahoma/wherever with a boyfriend or girlfriend.