I’m a 20-year-old straight male, but this isn’t really about me.
I was recently back home for a family event while my younger brother, age 14, was away on a mission trip with his church. My iPad died while I was home and my mother told me to look in the kitchen drawers for a charger. I couldn’t find one there, so she told me to check my brother’s bedside table. I opened the drawer and, with a little digging, found a charger.
I also found a few pictures of gay porn and a couple of pictures of male celebrities with their shirts off that had been clipped from magazines. It isn’t the gay porn I have a problem with—I fully support him coming into his sexuality, whatever it might be—but then I found a few things that were a bit more disturbing: a picture of our father in his swim trunks, and another one of a fully naked man with a cutout photo of my father’s face glued over the original model’s face. Needless to say, I was freaked out. I put everything back where I had found it, including the charger, and haven’t said anything to him about it. Now I’m in a tough spot. I know that telling my brother I found the pictures would mortify him, and I feel like telling my father would be a complete dick move.
Concerned And Scared
I can appreciate why those pictures squicked you out—a family member lusting after a family member? Ughers—but I don’t understand exactly what it is you’re afraid of, CAS. While your brother appears to have an inappropriate and—fingers crossed—fleeting sexual obsession with your father, can you picture a scenario in which your brother’s desires, however devoutly wished, could be consummated?
Unless something much, much squickier is going on back home, your brother isn’t a danger to your father, CAS, nor is your father a danger to your brother. The only danger I can see is in the false choice you’ve laid out in your letter. Saying something to your brother will only poison your relationship with him; saying something to your father will certainly kill his relationship with his son. And destroying either relationship over what is most likely a temporary bonerstorm-of-puberty-induced obsession—an obsession that will soon be a distant and unpleasant memory for your brother—seems a bit extreme.
If those pictures weren’t in a place where your parents might also find them, CAS, I would advise you to stuff this one way down the ol’ memory hole. But there they are, in a place where Mom and Dad—BUT ESPECIALLY DAD—might find ’em. So you’re going to memorize this and say it your brother ASAP: “Hey, kiddo, Mom told me to look in your nightstand drawer for an iPad power cord. I found one—along with what looked like gay porn. I didn’t peruse your porn collection too closely because I wanted to respect your privacy. But you need to get that stuff out of the house before Mom or Dad finds it. It’s cool with me if you’re gay, and I love you and it makes no difference—but leaving porn around is not how you want to come out to Mom and Dad, okay?”
Then tell him that grown-ups don’t keep porn in their bedside tables anymore: The internet is for porn, and he can access all the porn he likes safely and discreetly on his iPad.
I would like to know why my husband is divorcing me to marry an 87-year-old woman.
Extremely Humiliated
Only your husband knows the real reason, EH, but if I were to hazard a couple of guesses: Either this woman is extremely wealthy or your husband is a gerontophile. Sadly, neither makes this situation any less humiliating for you. But try to look at the bright side: No one who hears what your husband has done—and no one who knows you both personally—is going to think there’s something wrong with you.
I am a 43-year-old mother of three, married for almost 20 years. Three years and one child in, my husband confessed that he had a penchant for being a BDSM sub. My reaction was, “Okay, I’ll try it, but if you want to explore that with pro doms, be my guest.” Which he did.
Fast-forward a dozen years. I’m going bonkers because my husband is impotent. And don’t tell me ED can be fixed, because in our case it couldn’t. And don’t tell me there are alternatives (oral, manual, toys), because all of those are just not the same for me. My body needs a fully functioning and capable man. So my husband gives me his “blessing” to take a lover. I didn’t even have to ask! I just needed to be miserable and depressed for a dozen years!
Now I have two lovers. One lives far away, and I see him a few times a year; the other is local. The problem is that they are both married to spouses who don’t know. Like me, neither of my lovers is interested in divorce. That’s the good news. The bad news is that I’m not happy with the integrity of these situations. I know that what I am doing is considered despicable by many people, despite the fact that I’m probably a marriage-saving device for both of these women. (Their husbands are happier, I’m not trying to steal their husbands, and I’m not a financial burden on either of them.) I would love to find someone in an honest open relationship, but this has so far eluded me. So I guess my question is: How do I set up a situation with more integrity when the world isn’t really ready for people like me?
Normal Soccer Mom From Afar
The answer NSMFA seeks is obvious—there are hard-up single men out there, married men in honest open relationships, men in the organized swinging movement, and she should go fuck some of them—but I’m including NSMFA’s problem in the column for all the smug monogamists sending me angry letters in the wake of Mark Oppenheimer’s recent feature about monogamy and its discontents in the New York Times Magazine (“Married, with Infidelities,” June 30, 2011). While regular readers of Savage Love know where I stand on monogamy—with the realists, monogamous or not—not many readers of the New York Times knew where I stood.
Anyway, smugsters, here’s what I think is interesting about NSMFA’s letter: Everyone involved is perceived to be in a monogamous relationship, by their friends, family members, neighbors, bosses, coworkers, elected representatives, etc.; two of the women involved—the duped wives of the men that NSMFA is seeing on the side—may actually believe themselves to be in monogamous relationships. But not one of these three couples—not one of these six “traditionally married” straight people—is actually in a monogamous relationship.
Just something to keep in mind, monogamists, before you hit “send” on your e-mail to me about your beautiful, deep, and meaningful monogamous relationship, about how your parents never cheated on each other, about how none of your married friends would ever cheat on their spouses, and about how people like me have no idea what real love means because we’re not in monogamous relationships, etc., etc., etc.
Because you just never know, do you?
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
I thought you’d point out that EH is an agist asshole.
I mean, you’re totally right, but still.
Dan, NSMFA wrote in @96 in the SLLOTD, and it was premature ejaculation after all, not ED. Can you restore?
How do we know EH’s age or gender? Maybe this is all some drama at the retirement home.
Great suggestion to CAS. I remember back when I was a teenager my parents found a kinky sex story I had written and tried to have a ‘talk’. One of my least-favorite memories.
I love you Dan. You’re right about all of it. I say this from the safe and serene place of having just consummated my first nonmonogamous relationship (all parties know and approve). Never would have happened in a million years without you Dan.
Monogamy, non-mongamy… Really, this is all about people wanting to believe something is NORMAL, and feeling bad and/or angry if someone else tells them it’s not normal. Because apparently it’s difficult for us to live with the knowledge that different people may prefer different lifestyles. Noooo, we need one of these lifestyles (ours, if possible) to be ‘normal’, so that we don’t have to justify it by saying, ‘I dig it!’ Nooo, I don’t do what I do because I like it; I do it because “it’s normal”.
Normalophilia is an intriguing condition. I feel like asking every person in the world: pick something ‘normal’ that you like. It doesn’t even have to be sexual (though it’s especially strong with sexual matters). Now, how would you feel if you liked it just as much — but you happened to be only one of a few people who like it? If others said ‘oh, how infrequent!’ if you mentioned it. If you felt as if you had to explain why you like it (’cause, dude, ‘normal’ people don’t).
Now you wouldn’t like that, would you? 🙂
Maybe Dan is right and monogamy is a ‘burden’ for most people. Maybe monogamists are right and it isn’t. Either way, nobody is going to change their taste, is anybody?
(Except, of course, that there was social pressure in favor of monogamy — so non-monogamic people had to suffer under the ‘expectation of monogamy’ and the prejudice according to which anyone who is non-monogamous is a liar, coward, doesn’t know love, etc. That is indeed just prejudice, and should be abandoned. But let’s not do the opposite, guys. Nobody needs a world in which monogamous people feel discriminated against because of being monogamous.)
#3 I doubt EH would mention the other woman’s age in such a manner if her husband and herself were in that same age group.
@8, I can’t help it, I like picturing EH as a 97 year old gay guy.
This is just hypothetical hand-wringing, but am I the only one who thought that perhaps the origins of CAS’s bro’s picture of dad could be the results of abuse? It doesn’t change a single thing about the advice to CAS, but perhaps that’s what they meant by “concerned and scared.”
Mostly, I just don’t know how to bring up non-monogamy without sending the spouse into a tailspin… even though I suspect he might be okay with it, the social conditioning is deep, deep, deep. If the conditioning trumps desire – or if he’s truly not okay with it – how do we go on from there? Does opening up the marriage solve anything and allow us to continue on as partners, or would it be addressing a symptom, not the problem? How would we negotiate trust issues; what would the new standard be? How do you handle disclosure – DADT, need-to-know, some variant?
This is why “normal” is so damn seductive in a depressing, soul-killing way – it’s a hell of a lot easier. No risk. Familiar, comfortable despair.
@11 can you bring it up as fantasy? Admit that sometimes before you orgasm you think about other guys (movie stars are the least threatening, I guess), and ask if he has any similar fantasies? Bottom line is there’s no safe way to get through life. The “no risk” (aka “soul-killing despair”) route can also lead to divorce. Or to a lifetime of unhappiness.
@6 — Congratulations on doing it right, Tramu. We hear too much about the CPsOS in this column. Hope it was as fulfilling as it sounds.
Anyone think the first letter about the naked dad is a fake? Seems just sensational enough to make it to the top of the pile. Plus, writer: “telling my father would be a *complete dick* move” – har har. I say, FAKE.
@11: Erica’s idea of bringing up fantasies is good; another suggestion would be to discuss what it would take to break up your relationship. That’s how one of my friends opened his relationship; he and his gf were talking about hypothetical things that would break them up, and when they realized that “fucking someone else” was something they could both work through, it got the wheels turning.
As for whether openness would address problems in the relationship or just the symptoms – that’s a tough call. All I can say is, do a lot of soul-searching, starting with: are you in love with your partner or kind of blah about them and sticking around out of inertia? Do the two of you have the communication skills necessary to pull off an open relationship? Maybe the idea of you being with someone else appeals to you, but how do you feel at the idea of him being with someone else – could you handle it? What would your ground rules be? Etc.
My bf and I have talked about playing with other people (although nothing’s happened yet). We have some ground rules set up, and we’ve agreed not to even think about pursuing anyone else if we’re having issues with our own relationship. I’m pretty confident that, thanks to all our discussion and planning, if an opportunity for other-people-makeouts comes up, we’re equipped to handle it. Hopefully you and your partner can get there, too!
A CPOS is a CPOS is a CPOS and anyone who is in a relationship with CPOS is a POS. That NSMFA would choose to be in relationships with two CPOS makes her a double dipped POS. However she chooses to rationalize things should not obscure the reality that she chooses to be a party to behavior that places two families at risk. Granted that this would be true without her, still it says a lot about her own lack of integrity. It is telling that she makes no attempt to defend or justify the actions of the two CPOS. Her lame defense of her behavior as a marriage-saving device assumes that marriages based on lies, deceit, and betrayal are worth saving. Mine certainly wasn’t and I’m definitely better off free of it.
Dan is wrong, only two of the six possibly think they are in straight, traditional, monogamous marriages. The other four know they aren’t. Unless there is something more that Dan isn’t sharing, he is over reaching with his statements about how these people and their marriages are perceived. There are true monogamists, realistic monogamists, failed monogamists, deceived monogamists, and smug, self righteous monogamists. In some respects pseudo monogamists are similar to gays who married and had families as protective coloring.
Psst. Two people willing to lie to their partners, plus one person more than happy to be an accessory to those lies, might not be what you want the face of nonmonogamy to look like. It’s common knowledge that people cheat, no matter how NSMFA might like to dress things up.
#11: I have a simple two step thought experiment for potential polyamorists. Picture your partner having hot, heavy, screaming sex with someone else. Now imagine them going out with someone else, becoming close, and bonding over interests they share that you’re not involved in. If either of these images make you sick to your stomach, be warned; unless you’re a total twat, both of the above will happen.
That’s not to say that you shouldn’t open your relationship up. You can always broach the topic as “I’ve heard something about…” to gauge interest. Just that I don’t think enough people think through the flip side of opening things up – that your partners can also be expected to become physically and emotionally intimate with other people – and tend to torture both logic and their relationships in an attempt to undermine that.
I agree with those who have problems concerning your response to EH. How do you know that EH is not 95, and her humiliation doesn’t stem from being dumped for a younger woman? And what in principle is wrong with an 87-year-old, outside of any context?
And yes my post is intentionally hostile and incendiary. Let the pillorying begin.
@Littlesoul42,
The tone of the letter is pretty incredulous. Like EH still hasn’t shaken the surreal quality of this event. Not something you hear when a man chases a younger woman. As for what’s wrong with a 87 yr old, nothing. But imagine that for your whole life you did everything to combat aging for the sake of being attractive…only to have your partner leave you for an OLDER woman.
@19 As long as it isn’t about pet parents again.
how did dan not address the fact that this NSMFA woman waited 12 YEARS for her husband to “offer” sex outside the marriage. 12 YEARS?! how on earth do you encourage your husband to go see a pro dom and then wait 12 YEARS to finally get something for yourself?
Ms Erica – Cute, but then we’d know who EH is, as he’d certainly have been in the news when the couple married.
I suppose we could tell EH, if she’s female, that he really, really REALLY doesn’t want children.
Judging from what I see of a retirement home every week, possibles to toss out:
* she’s outlived all her heirs
* she’s not on a walker
* she has the best suite in the building
* she’s the best bridge player in the home
@21 You must have me confused with someone else because I wasn’t involved in the pet parent thread.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I’ve done most of the thought experiments on my own; as someone who’s never had a problem distinguishing love from sex, a lot of those issues just aren’t issues for me. The outside interest/bonding thing is fine, too – we both have always, always respected each other’s need for space, alone time and separate friends. I don’t think (for myself) that adding sex into the mix would be much of a problem… but depending on the time and attention I might have to give up, who knows? That could change.
And one more thing: we have a five-year-old daughter with some special needs that won’t resolve for a while. This a major stressor; although I believe we deal with her particular issues very, very well, the road is grueling and exhausting. Again, I wonder whether an open marriage would add to or lessen the stress. More importantly, I will not do anything to endanger her home. Period. She needs both of us in one house. I’m not miserable most of the time, and when I am… well, you get the picture. How important is one aspect of my life compared to all the other wonderful parts of it? It’s not all about me.
Sorry to go on. I have one good friend I can discuss this with, and that usually results in a litany of reasons to leave. Not an option. Thanks for letting me vent n a safe space, and for being so kind and thoughtful in your responses.
The Joe Newton illustration is wonderful.
And horrible.
One more thing: I had a long and interesting sexual career before marriage, including two polyamorous relationships. One worked very well; one was a constant dull drama (and therefore very short-lived). I think I flung myself into the normalcy trap and convinced myself that my natural proclivities were “wrong.” This also includes my kinky side, which has been buried now for more than a decade. So here we are.
I love you, Dan. And I’m in a happy monogamist relationship… except for the part where my boyfriend and I both have sex happily on the side… and together because neither of us are impotent.
@ 27 — My marriage has different dynamics than yours so I don’t know if my advice is relevant. But as far as suggesting open marriage without putting your spouse into a tailspin: reassurance. Guarantees of loyalty, however you can provide them. At least, that’s what I needed. And step up the affection. Show him you’re suggesting an enhancement to your marriage, not an escape from it.
And he gets to play too, right? Might be worth stressing.
Also, here’s a testimonial: opening up my marriage was the biggest, scariest, stomach-lurchingest decision this side of having kids, and I have no regrets. Downsides are obvious and issues of jealousy and insecurity had to be dealt with as they cropped up. But upsides outweigh them: my wife and I are closer and more committed now, and we’ve fallen in love again; our sex life is turbo charged; our sexual possibilities have widened; my wife transformed almost overnight into a more self-confident, self-accepting, sexual woman; and now that I know I’m in no danger of losing her, I’ve actually started enjoying her encounters, never mind the new appetite for pleasure they’ve awoken in her. In our case, everyone won (including her lover). I’m not saying it’ll work for you guys, or for anyone else for that matter, but I thought you might like to hear from at least one husband who has no regrets.
And actually, now that I’m used to it, it’s kind of exciting to know that my wife has a bit of the uninhibited slut in her (sex-positive sense, not derogatory). Maybe your husband can learn to appreciate the same about you. Good luck.
To EH: maybe she’s a wonderful caring attractive woman (because that’s independent of age)… and you’re not (ditto).
Yes, little brother will totally know that big brother saw the daddy porn from that part about “along with what looked like gay porn. I didn’t peruse your porn collection too closely because I wanted to respect your privacy”. Just say you saw he had gay porn that mom and dad could easily find too and leave it at that. If the daddy stuff was not on top, the less said the better.
I think CAS has another sibling who is trying to get back at CAS’s little brother. Why else would he have such obvious sicko porn – in hard copy, too – lying where just about anyone could find it?
Or perhaps the mother is the freaky one – she did direct CAS to the bedside table in the first place….
@15 perversecowgirl
Knock, knock. Who’s there? Opportunity…
@16 – I think you misread Dan’s response. He says that those six people’s friends and family all think they’re in monogamous marriages, and two of the six might even think that themselves. I’m not sure where you’re getting the impression that all six of them think they’re in “straight, traditional, monogamous marriages”.
Or perhaps the mother is the freaky one – she did direct CAS to the bedside table in the first place….
I doubt it, but if she did, she probably was hoping the brother would have that uncomfortable conversation so she wouldn’t have to.
@25 Your by the way middle paragraph changes the dynamics and a whole lot of other things.
Adding sex to the mix always complicates things.
I know personally just how much stress there is in being a caregiver. You are so right about it being grueling and exhausting. How tempting and exciting it was to escape; but I caution you that over time it will be increasingly hard to go back to the caregiver role. At least it was for me. Your level of frustration, bitterness, and resentment will increase if only because of how your escape contrasts with your caregiver role. Your marriage will probably suffer particularly if only one of you seeks the form of escape you are considering. You will be depressed more often and that will become apparent to your spouse. He will eventually put two and two together and associate it with your escape. More and more you will question whether the sacrifices are worth it. You don’t say whether your daughters needs are open ended, it will be easier if they aren’t and she displays measurable improvement over time. No matter how well intentioned your motives, how deep your love or how strong your commitments to your daughter and marriage are going in, they will wane over time (its only human nature unless you are really a saint or are willing to be a martyr) I have lived it and seen it happen with too many other caregivers. The role tends to consume pretty much everyone and everything, but then mine was an open ended commitment that I finally had to walk away from into order to survive when I increasingly self medicated with alcohol to deal with the hopelessness.
To all you other posters, I know your advice is well intentioned, but please refrain unless you are a caregiver, have been a caregiver, or have close personal experience with someone who is one. It really is a whole different world. Even the guilt associated with an affair does not come close to the long term guilt that can be associated with being a caregiver or for someone who walks away from the role.
I do feel like Dan kind of dodged NSMFA’s question.
I can’t help thinking of the Culture Gabfest’s piece on Dan a couple weeks ago. With the exception of Dana Stevens, they all basically agreed with Dan about monogamy in theory and then promptly fell over themselves to say no, nothing Dan says applies to their own relationships, no sir, not at all. And these aren’t cultural conservatives. These are just people in relationships that probably could not withstand the public pursuit of non-monogamy.
NSMFA’s question seems dumb because we’re reading it in Savage Love. But this isn’t a kinkster with an unquenchable desire for something out of the ordinary that society frowns upon. This is something more boring than that. It’s not that NSMFA’s *can’t* walk into a swing club or date a man in an open relationship with his wife. It’s that these kind of things probably don’t turn her crank. Which is fine.
NSMFA wants a husband with a dick that works. I know Dan’s stance on divorce when kids are in the picture. But I think this may be case where it’s not just that the husband can’t give the wife what she needs, it’s that the MARRIAGE can’t give the wife what she needs despite the husband’s good intentions. Being this guy’s primary partner is an impediment to the kind of sex life she wants and I don’t think there’s anything either one of them can really do to fix that. IMO.
Monkey: Opening your relationship because you feel trapped is not a good move. The new relationship you add will be like any new relationship; some possibility of finding someone you can truly bond with, more likely to be exciting but ultimately requiring more energy than you get back out. I strongly suggest talking about kink with your husband, probably taking the initiative as well, but opening things up is astronomically unlikely to help you find that one special person who makes it all better.
You sound like you want people you can rest on when you’re feeling too stressed, and if you’re being honest, the opportunity to take a break every now and then. And there’s nothing wrong with saying that you love both your husband and daughter, but that you also need to take a night off every now and then. Either separately by letting the other person stay at home, or together by calling a sitter who can handle your kid while the two of you date and unwind. Monogamy does not preclude close friends, and it sounds like outside sex is tangential to your needs now.
The first letter is so fucking fake!
I don’t think anyone else here has said this, but Dan you were great on The Colbert Report last night! Such a fun banter between the two of you (esp when you made him lose it) and good to see you both sitting across from someone who can keep up.
The point is not whether monogamy is right, wrong, or even possible. The point is, those two women do believe themselves to be in monogamous relationships–**because their husbands promised that and have not indicated anything has changed**.
You can want out. You can just want something on the side. You can want someone new in. Whatever. But being deceitful is NOT the way to go.
So NSFMA can spare us all patting herself on the back for “saving their marriages.” Please. If (or, probably, when) the wives find out, they will not see it with that way.
If the husbands are unsatisfied, it is their obligation to work it out with their wives, however hard it is, and even if it means divorce. Maybe some wives would truly prefer their husbands to get some discreetly on the side and never know, but you can’t know that without asking, and presuming it to justify your cheating is ridiculous.
The point is not whether monogamy is right, wrong, or even possible. The point is, those two women do believe themselves to be in monogamous relationships–**because their husbands promised that and have not indicated anything has changed**.
You can want out. You can just want something on the side. You can want someone new in. Whatever. But being deceitful is NOT the way to go.
So NSFMA can spare us all patting herself on the back for “saving their marriages.” Please. If (or, probably, when) the wives find out, they will not see it that way. They will feel deceived, betrayed, and foolish. They will feel the rug pulled out from under them (and their children, if any.) Except in rare circumstances, it will make them feel their lives have been a sham, and the person they most trusted is the reason. And even if some wives would truly prefer their husbands to get some discreetly on the side and never know, you can’t know that without asking, and presuming it to justify your cheating is ridiculous.
If the husbands are unsatisfied, it is their obligation to be adults and work it out with their wives, however hard it is, and even if it means divorce. But you don’t just change the rules unilaterally and without notification.
Re: CAS, his mom TOLD him to look in the drawer. No thoughts about the mom wanting the son to see that stuff and do something about it?
As a 13 year old gay boy in the mid 60’s, I defintely went thru a blessedly short period where I was obsessed with my father’s dick. Having grown up well adjusted, and an admitted size-queeen, I think I know why. He had by far the biggest dick I had ever seen. I was fascinated by it.
I also remember a recurring dream about the Giant of Jack and Beanstalk, and wrapping my arms around his fine member. Both were fantasies that quickly faded.
But as I matured, I did get further proof that I am genetically related to my father. Thanks Dad!
Every time there’s a letter from an adult that involves finding something sexual and surprising in a teenager’s private space (father porn on the bedside, sneezing fetishes on the computer history), I wonder if I should be cheering for the teenager for coming up with the perfect way to give the big FUCK YOU to the snoopers.
Sigh–we have to endure “normal soccer mom” again? Normal, at least, until one gets close enough to see that she’s a lying, cheating bitch who justifies it to herself on the grounds that her lovers’ wives don’t have to worry about her stealing their husbands or their money? Please spare me these idiots. If the goal is to offer up examples of “non-monogamy: doing it wrong!”, then this letter fits right in. Psst! Lady! Maybe if you spent less time fucking married men, the unmarried, eligible ones would be less “elusive”. Idiot.
The last letter, the only two getting burnt there are the two women who don’t know their husbands are “dipping their wicks” elsewhere. She’s concerned about the integrity and it actually isn’t her problem. She ought to just cut it off with both of them and start over with looking for a single man. It sounds like she’s complaining over nothing, really. Oh, wait. I forgot about the typical, male, straight mind. As soon as they find out there’s “no commitment” from the woman they’re having sex with, that is when they “fall in love.” I see her problem, now. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha…
The second letter sounds like a fake. Somewhere, there’s a room full of frat boys laughing at a computer screen….
The first one was answered very well so not much more to add there. The guy may want to confirm that “dad” isn’t being a bit too familiar with his brother, though. Otherwise, it is mortifying to have that porn stash found, that’s for sure.
Gotta disagree Suzy and Infidel. A marriage is a commitment two people make to each other, not a commitment they extract from the rest of the world. NSFMA isn’t cheating on her husband and she is not bound to respect marriages that are not her own. If the idea behind marriage is to grab a good partner before anyone else can claim them, well, you’re doing monogamy wrong.
That being said, NSFMA obviously doesn’t like doing it very much and would like to do things differently. Now maybe she’s just had rotten luck and has only tumbled into bed with married men. Maybe she’s got a thing for married men. As I suggested earlier, maybe swinging and open-relationships are a turn-off for her. I think she ought to leave her husband, co-raise their child responsibly, and date again because it seems pretty clear a publicly monogamous is what she’s after. But that’s just me.
Suzy – misdirected venom, there. You are doing what so many women do: blame other women for their husbands/partners infidelties. The two men who are cheating on their wives are in the wrong for lying to their spouses. So, if your husband, boyfriend cheated, you’d keep him and direct your anger at the woman he cheated with? That’s a mighty tall order you’re putting on one human being there – the belief that one man is so perfect that he isn’t guilty of cheating but other women are always in the wrong. How do you know they aren’t lying to their wives at every turn? That is usually the case.
Hmmmm, strange but not unusual priorities. In fact, it is typical.
There will come a time when you will want to believe in your own self worth and not blame other women. If your husband is cheating then HE is cheating and who he’s cheated with is irrelevant. You may never even know them but you will STILL have a cheating, piece of shit who YOU supported in your home.
Figure it out. One day, you may have to rely on other women so you may want to get used to liking yourself as a woman AND giving other women a chance as well.
Dan,
Usually I can go along with you, but your response to EH revealed some distressing ageism and sexism.
Maybe because she’s his soulmate?
Maybe because she makes him laugh?
Maybe because she turns him on?
Maybe because she’s fun in bed?
Maybe because she listens and cares about him?
Maybe because she’s tough and/or smart and/or brave and/or wise and/or playful?
Maybe because she shares something with him that the wife doesn’t–like ethnicity, religion, political attitudes, interests?
Maybe because the relationship with the wife has been a downer for a while now?
Maybe because there really is something wrong with that wife (like her bewilderment and refusal to even consider there might have been something wrong with their marriage)?
The idea that a man who chooses to marry an older woman is either a gold digger or has some weird kink is–well, stereotypical, to say the least.
This 87 year old woman is a person, and, like almost any person, she has things that might attract another person. Without knowing the particulars, why speculate narrowly and crassly?
Dan,
Usually I can go along with you, but your response to EH revealed some distressing ageism and sexism.
Maybe because she’s his soulmate?
Maybe because she makes him laugh?
Maybe because she turns him on?
Maybe because she’s fun in bed?
Maybe because she listens and cares about him?
Maybe because she’s tough and/or smart and/or brave and/or wise and/or playful?
Maybe because she shares something with him that the wife doesn’t–like ethnicity, religion, political attitudes, interests?
Maybe because the relationship with the wife has been a downer for a while now?
Maybe because there really is something wrong with that wife (like her bewilderment and refusal to even consider there might have been something wrong with their marriage)?
The idea that a man who chooses to marry an older woman is either a gold digger or has some weird kink is–well, stereotypical, to say the least.
This 87 year old woman is a person, and, like almost any person, she has things that might attract another person. Without knowing the particulars, why speculate narrowly and crassly?
Dan,
Usually I can go along with you, but your response to EH revealed some distressing ageism and sexism.
Maybe because she’s his soulmate?
Maybe because she makes him laugh?
Maybe because she turns him on?
Maybe because she’s fun in bed?
Maybe because she listens and cares about him?
Maybe because she’s tough and/or smart and/or brave and/or wise and/or playful?
Maybe because she shares something with him that the wife doesn’t–like ethnicity, religion, political attitudes, interests?
Maybe because the relationship with the wife has been a downer for a while now?
Maybe because there really is something wrong with that wife (like her bewilderment and refusal to even consider there might have been something wrong with their marriage)?
The idea that a man who chooses to marry an older woman is either a gold digger or has some weird kink is–well, stereotypical, to say the least.
This 87 year old woman is a person, and, like almost any person, she has things that might attract another person. Without knowing the particulars, why speculate narrowly and crassly?
monkey@27 “my kinky side, which has been buried now for more than a decade.”
Just wanted to give a quick plug for considering “kink on the side” separately from “sex on the side.” Depending on how you are wired, it may be possible to satisfy the kink in ways that recharge your family rather than draining “more energy than you get back out” (@38) If you simply yearn to give or receive a good beating or spanking –- that can be very satisfying, and in my experience the interaction can stay at the level of friendship among fellow hobbyists, rather than becoming an emotional entanglement.
40devinderry– Thanks for the timely reminder. I missed Colbert Report last night, saw your comment today, and caught the rebroadcast on Comedy Central just now. My only problem with the interview is that Colbert was so funny, such a good comedian, that it was a shame seeing Dan playing the straight man.
all the letters this week have an air of FAKENESS, specially the first one
For your advice to CAS, I agree with everything you told him to say to his brother, but his brother’s Ipad may not be totally private (who knows if one of his parents won’t borrow it for some reason) so it may not be great for him to download anything, though if he surfs and then deletes his browsing history, he should be in good shape. Also, since you need a credit card to access a lot of that material, his brother may be in a bit of a bind there too.
Am I the only one who thinks the NSFMA letter is bogus?
It’s like cleverly disguised cuckold porn…he is a submissive, he can’t get it up, she has multiple partners to satisfy her (which was husbands idea)…
I don’t know…just seems like someone into cuckolding wrote out his fantasy from a wife’s perspective. She needs a “fully functioning and capable” man to satisfy her, which would state that her husband is not only sexually defective…but also incompetent?
@58 – NSFMA is a real person. She has written in to a different thread to continue the discussion. Here’s part of what she posted there…
>> I really appreciate all the comments and am fascinated by the whole topic and the complex issues that are raised. It is hard to respond to every point but I will say Dan was right about me being sarcastic about the 12 years of misery (and that PE is premature ejaculation) It WAS hard, I DID get depressed and it DID NOT occur to me to do anything other than to keep trying within my marriage to figure it out. But my husband and I always worked toward open communication and while I can’t say I was never for a moment resentful, I can say I think we did pretty well talking about and plodding through these very, very difficult issues and for this I am proud of us. We have now been successful partners for 22 years in business and parenting while remaining best friends. And don’t you all worry about his sex life! He is very well taken care of. On the issue of “find a single guy….” Won’t a single guy fall in love or want more or want to fall in love with someone eventually? That means you are really talking about a series of single guys which means many partners over the coming years (if I’m lucky) and if the goal is to feel physically comfortable and have something that approaches a “normal” sex life in terms of frequency. Many partners just seems a physically, emotionally and logistically unsustainable option. I was looking for longer term solutions. Polyamory would be of much more interest but, as one respondent notes, more easily found in major metro areas where I am not. Also, I still have children at home and I can’t see how we can make such a wholesale change in lifestyle at the moment. The idea of getting the blessing from the wives has been discussed and will be continued to be discussed. I can’t be happier to have the conversation going more national every day thanks to DS and others.
I usually love Stephen Colbert, but I thought he was kind of a dick last night and didn’t let Dan get a word in. (Dan seemed irritated too, with good reason.) For the general masses, Dan’s ideas are too complex and intricate to be conveyed in 3 minutes, and it didn’t help that Colbert took over half that time talking himself. Not a good forum for what could have been an awesome conversation. (Still love seeing Dan live, though!)
@39 Sometimes, even if a letter is fake, there are still things that can be learned for other, real, people who may be in a similar situation.
I sure wish this blog was organized as comments with responses in strings. It would be so much more like a real blog.
@60, you probably haven’t noticed that Colbert does all interviews like that: infuriating to fans of the interviewee, but pretty much just like an opposition host (o’reilly) would. Imho it’s good for liberal viewers to get a taste of how tough (and stupid) the opponents of liberalism can be. Colbert Report is a safe place for that.
“Because you just never know, do you?”
It’s called lying, and if you do it to someone who thinks you care about them you’re an asshole.
@60, and as far as Dan’s response, I’d say he was pretty typical in being annoyed by Colbert’s always interrupting to go for a laugh, and being a big enough boy to not lose his cool. He also sufficiently, if not entirely, of defended against Colbert’s intentional caricaturing of his philosophy.
Best column in a while! Just watched you on the Colbert Report – nicely played. although, clearly men need, and in the last letter, did, recognize women have sectual urges too!
In regards to having sexual fantasies about family members:
With some discomfort and a lot of shame I have to admit that I was also having some of those fantasies back when I was nothing but an ever-horny teenager who didn’t know shit about real sex and relationships.
The good news is that they were never pursued and totally faded shortly after.
That said, few years after all those family-related fantasies died so did my beautiful aunt. I ended up masturbating in her honor and refuse to feel guilty about it.
Maybe the father in swim trunks picture + magazine cut-out were a gag, and the younger brother was just careless about leaving it in his drawer. Doesn’t necesarily mean the kid has a sexual obsession!
Late to the game, but one of the best aspects of an open relationship is your partner finding someone who shares the interests they have that you hate so you don’t have to keep going to those damned opera/orchestra/country/rap/pop (pick your poison) concerts.
Nobody is perfect for everybody, but two people can get very close.
Letter 1 – not fake. I grew up in a 4 boy family and ‘accidentally’ finding porn was something that happened more than once. We are talking an era before the internet.
Great advice Dan, but just keep it to the basics – I saw your porn, find a better place to hide it.
Its very likely Mom saw it first and is subtly getting brother to do the talking, but really the best thing is to open an opportunity for little bro to talk – knowing he is not being judged.
Big bro could make an effort to mention in general family conversation other gay friends etc, and how fine he is about it.
And yeah its just a passing faze – someone who has been abused doesn’t make fan-porn of their abuser.
Just saw your interview on The Colbert Report. Maybe you should just keep your mouth shut and stop pretending to speak for the entire gay community. You played right into anti-gay stereotypes and made all gays look like promiscuous sluts who believe that monogamy and marriage are incompatible. If it’s possible, you gave homosexuals and even worse image in the minds of most heterosexuals than they already have. You messed up big time dipshit.
Re “Concerned and Scared,” I am also concerned and scared (and while I think the advice given is sound)I feel that this situation DEMANDS some thoughtful advice regarding the possibility that the child is being abused by his father.
The sad thing about Dan’s proposal is that he’s not offering an alternative to the zero-sum game idea of marriage.
He’s basically saying “let’s go from monogamous, sexless marriages where the men are miserable (and ‘monogamous’ relationships where the men cheat) to nonmonogamous relationships” the problem is, that I’d wager that most of the women who don’t want to fuck their husbands are going to be miserable if their husbands are fucking someone else.
Really it’s just “lets have the wives be miserable instead of the husbands”.
Unless there’s something I’m missing.
Personally I’m still holding on to the fantasy that if my S/O gets laid on the regular with me then he’ll be able to keep it in his pants around other women. I guess I’m just old-fashioned like that.
the second letter is fakey, fakey, fakey. Dan, do you contact these outrageous letter writers to verify the information? i know you did that with the young man whose gramma had a masturbating parakeet.
@49
Super sexist, but I’ll say it.
Women expect better of eachother. If I ever was cheated on I would be mad at the man and I would break up with him.
It’s not “as much” your fault, but helping someone cheat is also shitty and unethical.
So I would also be mad at the woman. Unless she didn’t know he was in a relationship and he was lying to her, too. Then I’d buy her a drink. Maybe we could be pals.
It’s like cleverly disguised cuckold porn…he is a submissive, he can’t get it up, she has multiple partners to satisfy her (which was husbands idea)…
I don’t know…just seems like someone into cuckolding wrote out his fantasy from a wife’s perspective. She needs a “fully functioning and capable” man to satisfy her, which would state that her husband is not only sexually defective…but also incompetent?
The letter is not fake in the least but you are perceptive in discerning some of my husband’s proclivities.
The first thought I had at LW1 is that the brother was PERHAPS being abused by the father. Maybe the brother can ask his brother some open-ended questions such as “how are things? is everything okay?”. Maybe that would open the door?
@38: I appreciate your concerns and those of the poster whose name I’m too lazy to scroll up and find. Missing from your perspective, however, is a great deal of pertinent information – I’m simply not going to divulge every detail, for a variety of reasons. Some that I don’t mind sharing:
The sexual incompatibility far predates our child’s birth and the attendant issues. It’s taken me this long simply to realize that my desires are not bad or abnormal.
We have a very strong support system, including relatives, daycare, schools, sitters, friends… the list goes on. Our daughter is not severely disabled. We have much, much more time for our own pursuits and interests than most people in our situation do, and we’ve worked very hard to get it this way. Part of that work has been extensive counseling and a recognition of the need to remain people first and parents second. Is it perfect? No. But I’m fairly certain that at this point, the “trapped” feelings you rightly deduce would be much the same with any child. I have a serious problem with breaking up a wonderful home run by two best friends who love each other and their daughter.
I’ve seen firsthand what happens to caretakers who subsume themselves in that role and either break out disastrously… or don’t. If I’d wanted to do that, I could have – the opportunities are bewildering, really, and it’s kind of a shock to realize how many people are okay with deception. But I’m not okay with it, or with burying issues by creating tangential drama.
To me, this feels much more like resuming the course of our marriage than trying to escape from it. It’s been coming down the pike from the beginning, I suspect.
i HOPE the first one is fake. smacks of fakey fakeness.
#4 Your comments are a platform only for your SPAM
@75: Dan has nothing against monogamy. If you and your S/O are having regular sex, and have agreed to be monogamous, and are GGG, then that’s awesome. His point, which is a good one, is that in those monogamous relationships, we need to stop pretending that monogamy is easy. Sometimes we fantasize about other people, and that’s ok. We just need to be honest and admit that just because you love someone, it doesn’t mean that you never ever like or lust after another person.
For sexless marriages, maybe it would make the woman miserable if her husband slept with another woman, but it is ridiculously unfair to refuse to let someone have sex ever again with anyone, including you, if you’re married to them. To paraphrase Dan, if sex is not at all a big deal and it’s totally ok to stop fucking your spouse, then your spouse should be allowed to do this not-at-all-a-big-deal thing with other people. If it is such a huge deal that you’re only allowed to do it with one other person, then that other person should be willing to do it with you.
@75: “the problem is, that I’d wager that most of the women who don’t want to fuck their husbands are going to be miserable if their husbands are fucking someone else.”
Sorry, having real trouble dredging up ANY sympathy for that position. If you aren’t interested in sex, then you aren’t interested, period. Have the courage of your convictions. If you really, truly just don’t want it any more, then you have nothing to say on the subject, other than “Thank you” to your partner for respecting your wishes and leaving you alone on that particular subject. If your partner is coming home happy, satisfied, and sharing their good energy with you as a result, you owe the other person a “Thank you,” too, for taking care of your partner’s sexual needs when you can’t be bothered to do it yourself.
If you really can’t leave the subject alone, then you have no business trying to opt out.
@48, 49: People may not have the same obligations to other people’s spouses as they have to their own, but as human beings in general we DO have a moral obligation to treat each other decently and honestly whenever possible. So if you have sex with someone and you know that person is cheating with you, then yes, you do share moral fault in the situation. The fact that your moral fault is not as bad as the other person’s fault is not the point; it only matters that you should shape up and not do this bad thing anymore.
@49, you’re assuming a whole host of false things about me and what I said. What made you think I’d be less pissed off at my husband, if he cheated on me, than at the person he cheated with? I’d be pissed at her/him too, yeah, but my husband would certainly be the primary concern because he’s the one who made the promises to me. The stuff you said about having to one day rely upon other women, or like myself as a woman, is utterly cracked out. What? I rely on other women all the time, have done so and will continue to do so. I like myself as a woman just fine. I would consider myself an immoral, stupid bitch if I were to sleep with a man who was already committed to some other woman, and that’s that. There’s no need to do that to someone else, period.
That EH letter was awesome.
@monkey. Thanks for sharing. I feel ya sister, I’m right there. I want to open things up and I think he would too, but there’s always the chance it will make things worse instead of better and that is a really scary risk when there is a child involved. Although I know hubby agrees with non-monogamy philosophically, I also know he has a jealous streak and an affair would hurt him. So I’m left feeling torn between feelings of selfishness and a desire for self-protection/self love. Funny, I always assumed He’d be the first to stray.
I have to say that my first thought when I read C&S’s letter was that the father might be incesting or might have incested the little brother. About 10% of boys are sexually abused, most abusers are family members – so it’s very possible. But whatever the situation – erotic fantasy or sexual abuse – all that C& S can do is let his little brother know that he’s there for him, with love and no judgment, in whatever ways he can. Whichever situation it is, it’s very delicate. If the little brother is being incested, then this is a very serious trauma that could affect him for the rest of his life, and it would be incredibly helpful if he got some love and support.
Because you just never know…true, and not so negative. It’s all really okay. Some of us just deal with figuring out our non-negotiables are actually quite negotiable. Cheers nonetheless.
While I have forgiven my cheating spouse I will never forgive her ex-lover. However, if I ever find out that has she continued or resumed contact with him its over. Whenever the opportunity to do him harm, whatever it may be, presents itself I will do so without a moments hesitation. He has taught me how to hate and made a lifelong enemy in the process. If I could destroy his life I would. I will celebrate any misfortune that befalls him and will let him know so. Forgiveness would be possible under certain conditions, but I doubt the cheating has the decency to do it. I have informed my wife of all of this when I took her back. Things can never be the same between us and I don’t know if we have a long term future together. There will be no second chance.
I think “sexless marriage” is often an exaggeration. What if it’s a sexdrive mismatch? How mismatched are they allowed to be before it’s unfair? It’s easy to say “I have no sympathy if she’s not fucking him” but what if it’s once a month? Once a week? Once every two months? Sex is a pretty diverse behaviour, one mans “happily satisfied” is another man’s “sensory deprivation” (or woman’s, for that matter).
I understand what you’re saying, but it’s not really as clear cut as it’s made out to be. At one end of the spectrum you have “Honey, if you never want to have sex again I think it’s only fair that you let me have sex with someone else” and at the other you have “if we’re not having sex five times a day you’re going to have to let me have a girlfriend (or boyfriend) on the side”. The ends are easy (the one guy’s reasonable, the other guy’s an asshole) but what about the middle?
It may seem intellectually clear that “no sex = not a big deal therefore outside sex = not a big deal” but people seldom make such decisions based on logic, they make them on emotion. Emotion doesn’t always yield so easily to if-then-therefore reasoning. Even a woman who agrees to the fact that it’s fair and let’s the man go for it may still be extremely upset on the inside. I see that as less than ideal.
To be clear, since a lot of people seemed to be adressing my comment as if I was one of these women. I’m on the high end of the sex drive spectrum and I don’t really see any of this applying to me… I just feel for these women, to some degree.
Oh, dear god, @90, “incest” is NOT a verb!
SERIOUSLY, Nobody gives a shout out for Bonerstorm!!?
Yay Bonerstorm!
Gee Dan, keep telling me that my partner and I are going to end up cheating on one another one day, and I’m going to keep telling you that you are full of absolute shit on that point.
@78 re incest fantasies phase among young gay boys.
Glad you brought it up. I was about to do so but was worried it will come across as homophobic. And as someone who checked out some lesbian porn catering to women, it seems like there is a mother/step mother crush in that community as well.
And if you don’t believe me check some Girlfriend Films productions, available both at Scarecrow and Blue Video here in seattle, or browse their website at
http://www.girlfriendsfilms.com/
It is also common for mostly-straight would-be- crossdressrs boys to try on some of their mothers’ clothing.
Rest assured, it is very very rare that any of these fantasies lead to actual “incestation” (as wrote Libya @90 and was so urgently corrected by Chicago Girl @94)
Hope I didn’t gross out any one, just wanted to let you know that it’s mostly a phase among both genders and different orientations. As cokyballsup @78 summed it up, “It’s harmless and nothing to worry about”.
Oh yes. I made several sacrifices for her most notably staying in a place of her choosing with limited career opportunities and working at a shitty job (mostly because of the benefits) so she could stay home and raise the kids, which placed the entire financial burden on my shoulders. I’m neither a control freak or someone who expected or wanted a marriage with traditional roles. I never commented on or restricted her choice of friends or politics. Big mistake on my part. I want neither tea or sympathy and yes I have anger issues,
“Because you just never know, do you?”
Love that. Not sure who said it but I did hear an fitting quote regarding this once.. something along the lines of “You can never truly know what goes on inside a relationship”
– You definitely cannot know as those people can be completely different people when only in the company of each other. So there really is no ‘normal’ and there never can be. Kind of relieving actually!
gerontophile. Betty White calls them Wrinkle Chasers.
@93: It is, indeed, less than ideal. But if two people enter a marriage without an agreement that they will not have sex at all, and one person later decides they don’t want to have sex, they can not expect their partner to also give up sex and stay with them. That’s incredibly selfish behavior.
@96: Dan isn’t saying one of you will necessarily cheat. But he is saying that if one of you decides they don’t want to have sex anymore, there’s a good chance the other will either cheat or divorce you.
I am straight, female, monogamous, and fairly straightlaced. Nothing in this column, NOTHING in the letters section or comments, has ever shocked me the way @90-Libya’s message did. Please, PLEASE listen to 94 and promise never to use “incest” as a verb again. Better yet, crawl under the bed, give up your internet access, renounce the English language, and don’t emerge back again until you’re ready to rejoin society without doing so much harm.
I am also in a long term relationship with a married man, and I’m sick and tired of people, including my own friends, judging me because “I’m not doing the right thing.” The wife knows I make him happy in ways she cannot, just as I accept that what they share together as a married couple -the history, the familial and community ties, the finances- are important enough for him to stay married. Would I like him to be all mine? Yes. But right now, these conditions are worth the price of admission.
A-muse, does the wife approve of or accept your relationship with your husband? If she accepts it, then I don’t think people should judge you for not doing the right thing. If she doesn’t approve of the relationship, though, then it’s another story. Saying that she knows you “make him happy in ways she cannot” is not the same thing as saying she accepts it, which is why I ask. If she doesn’t accept it, then that very recognition is probably a terrible source of pain, that you’re helping to inflict.
@ 98 — Your anger is understandable and probably justified. So much of the discussion here is theoretical and accommodating. It’s refreshing to be vividly reminded what a CPOS actually does to their spouse. Betrayal sucks, betrayers suck. And rationalizations for betrayal look pretty feeble and sad and selfish once you see the hurt you’ve inflicted on the betrayed.
I’m impressed you gave her a second chance. Not that it’s any of my damn business, but just be careful your anger doesn’t sabotage any genuine attempts on her part to make up for the wrong she did. Not for her sake, for yours. Hope things improve for you.
Dan, can we just move on about the whole monogamy issue? Just be non-monogamous and shut it. It’s your preference, as is monogamy for other people. We don’t need a letter to try to persuade us that non-monogamy “saves marriages”. Give us a effin break.
Hahaha Suzy you are a MORAL stupid bitch! And a judgmental one at that. I hope its your husband that I have been fucking all these years. He is awesome!!! I have enjoyed him a LOT
CAS is fake, Dan! Come on!
Cut out of dad’s face on another body?! Really?!
Oh, and not to mention the predictable, (and yet outdated) porn in the bedside stand routine.
Boo!
108, what do you think motivates you to feel that way about other people who have done nothing to wrong you? If I remember correctly, you’re currently having sex with someone who is cheating on his wife, and you’re totally cool with that. Did this woman do something to you, to give you so little concern for her feelings or well being? If her husband wants to cheat on her, you can’t stop him, but you have the choice not to help him do it yourself.
And because I care about how the cheated-on spouse feels, you think it would be “awesome” if I were being cheated on by my husband? Seriously, something is wrong inside your head and heart. Check into that, maybe.
One thing Dan might have missed is that many young kids with daddy issues often get coerced into relationships with other daddy figures, such as teachers, scout masters or camp councilors. Hopefully, big brother will keep an eye on the kid and make sure he doesn’t get taken advantage of on one of his “missions.”.
It always takes two (or more) to tango and complain about being covered in pig s**t when you lie down with pigs. You be able wash off the filth, but the stench will probably stay with you for the rest of your.
Don’t you just love picturesque metaphors. 🙂 LMAO
forgot the don’t before complain
Okay, have to add, whether or not you think that she owes the other wives anything, most of the time, the other woman gets lied to, too. Maybe not in this case, but I agree, it’s ridiculous to blame the other women. Blame the CPOS you married. I mean, they start as soon as you meet them, it’s not like they tell you they have someone. I talked to a guy on a dating site a week ago and he was muting his cell phone during the very first call. What does that tell you? He *said* he was single, living with a housemate.
I don’t know what CPOS means. 🙁 I hate that everything is abbreviated these days! How’s this? ITYASFAEFWYS.
First person who guesses it gets a million dollars. 🙂
@116: CPOS= cheating piece of shit–Dan’s term for someone who DOESN’T inform the spouse or bf/gf or get consent to have extra-relationship sex.
I don’t have the time to try and figure out your certainly-awesome acronym.
a-muse @104, “The wife knows I make him happy in ways she cannot”
Has she expressed that thought to you? Maybe you should stop speaking for her. Would you like it if your younger brother preened and said “I make Mom happy in ways you can’t?”
re: #1. If Mom knows where to find the ipad charger then Mom could go into that drawer at any time…. The real object here, I think, i to prevent relationship damage in this family.
If it were me I would have two separate conversations with brother. 1- Can I borrow your charger and 2-” I see that you’re no longer a kid, and are now a man. Boy, i remember how embarrassed I was when Mom found my porm collection. I hope you’re smarter about hiding it than I was. “
There is nothing to be gained by letting him know what you saw.
I find it interesting no one has mentioned that in the first letter, the 14 yr. old brother was away on a mission with his church. Making the family either Mormon or evangelical Christians…Which made me think this letter is a fake. Because if the family are nut job Christians or Mormons the 29 yr. old would never DREAM of telling his father about the pictures…all hell would break loose. And I suspect the 29 yr. old would have mentioned his own evolution towards sexual free thinking…
@93: My apologies for a colloquial misuse of the word “you.” I didn’t mean you-you, just a hypothetical you.
I read somewhere that once-a-month-or-less meets the generally accepted clinical standard of “sexless.”
Your point about it being a mismatch rather than an absolute is well taken. I have to wonder, though: why don’t we ever hear about the cases where he wants it five times a day and she only wants it three? Maybe that’s because one end of that spectrum is largely a straw man, while the other end is a sadly all-too-common occurrence.
I may be wrong on this, but flirting aside aren’t men still the aggressors in most relationships. Consequently they bare a disproportionate share of the blame when they target women in committed relationships (and don’t tell it doesn’t happen)
@121 Once-a-month may feel sexless to the guy, but STDs don’t see it that way.
I find it funny the people here are so angry about people cheating on a spouse … but actually give advice about how to manipulate (sorry, communicate) spouses into letting them screw outside the marriage. I just find a lot of rationalization.
In my opinion, a nearly sexless marriage is anything less than 4 times a year. And sexless is just that, one year or more with no sex. And believe me, that is not unheard of nationwide. No wonder people are going nuts and getting bitchy! I’m all for any movement that gives people their rights and improves the institution along the way.
@122: I don’t think it happens much. I think men mainly go after single women, so in terms of going after someone who is married, there are a lot more women going after married men than there are men going after married women. My own limited personal experience bears this out – I don’t know any guys who have gone after married women, but I know lots of married men who have found themselves the object of attention of a single woman.
Bingo! @124 – thank goodness someone finally got there. Dan’s set of ethics (at least, as they are portrayed in his column) assumes that each person is a totally rational, completely assertive, equally “powerful” part of the couple (even in relationships that clearly have a dominant and a submissive, in the original meanings of those terms). I would like to hear what the legions of “sex positive” individuals have to say about “convincing” your partner to let you stray versus “manipulating” your partner to let you stray. What is permissible during the conversation? Can you issue ultimatums? Can you threaten to leave the family?
These are the issues in relationships that are really interesting, Dan’s vacuous and shallow analyses aside.
@127 The people in th relationship are the only ones who actually know their power dynamic, so asking Dan to try to assume who plays which role and how is actually counter productive when there’s so many other factors at play.
But let’s assume that there is a couple with very clear dominant and submissive roles. Do those roles eclipse the very fundamental need to respect and love your partner? Do they completely destroy any possible means of having a thoughtful, honest conversation? ‘Cause if so, than it probably wasn’t much of a relationship in the first place.
And anyways I don’t really get upset over manipulation. We all do it and most of the time its so obvious that they might as well write it across their foreheads. As to how serious any possible threats and ultimatums are, well that would have to be determined by the other partner since some people’s tempers run their mouths more than others. Though I assume most here would consider that a dick move.
@127 AR
“Can you issue ultimatums? Can you threaten to leave the family?”
Yes, there’s nothing stopping you from doing that. But what will that get you? Will the threatened partner be happy after relenting? Will you have a healthy marriage? Can you be happy if your spouse is profoundly unhappy?
The point of open marriage is not to get away with something. It’s to have a healthier, more fulfilling life. Why don’t you take a look at the many personal stories of successful open marriages to see what both of the participants get out of it?
People who fail at open marriage by using coercion to get it are no more an argument against that type of relationship than cheaters or abusers are against monogamy.
Slightly OT Dan. Just wanted to say that seeing you successfully throw Stephen Colbert completely out of character was simply priceless! “Uhhh… OH SH…!” It was truly magical!
@121
Absolutely it’s uncommon, maybe even non existent, but I was using it not as a strawman but to illustrate that sexuality is continuous. It’s easy to draw a line at “no sex”. But here we are already saying that (from you) “once a month or less” is sexless, while someone else is suggesting less than 4 times a year. (So once every three months) I once knew a girl who was in a relationship with a guy who she had gone almost a year without sleeping with. This was a young couple, like mid-early twenties, not married, no kids.
There’s no clear line of what’s “reasonable” to expect in terms of sex in a relationship and therefore no line to discern what’s “unreasonable” in terms of one partner expecting the other not to look outside the relationship.
I’m not saying Dan doesn’t make a compelling suggestion. I’m just arguing that in real life it’s usually not so clear cut.
Also: for the record, I’ve seen situations (not as extreme as the five time as a day) where the man was getting a fairly average amount of sex for his age bracket and parental status but still felt he was entitled to look outside the relationship. So you might be surprised.
In my personal case I can only hope that if I do get married it works like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM6w3_ljS… and I don’t have to worry about cheating.
I cannot believe this woman cannot find an open relationship lover that is compatible with her. Hasn’t she seen OKC? Women’s profiles are mobbed by available, interesting polyamorous/open marriaged men. She needs to take some responsibility to find a couple who meet her criteria–and meet them…and stop screwing men cheating on their wives…unless she likes being that kind of person.
@128 and 129 – I think you both are very close to saying that if there is no love and respect in the request, then it is not truly an “open marriage”, and that is “No True Scotsman” fallacy. You can have an open marriage where the power partner has basically bullied or outrageously manipulated the weaker partner into accepting the state of affairs. Now I realize that I am getting close to declaring those who accept open marriages as victims of false consciousness or Stockholm syndrome, but there is a much finer line to be walked than the anti-monogamists like to admit.
@ 124 — Try letting go of what you think of as “cheating”. It’s not cheating if everyone involved is okay with it. Now suddenly the debate makes sense: one gets angry with folks who cheat on their spouses…*therefore* if sleeping with someone other than your spouse is very important to you, try to arrange it so that no one feels hurt, used or betrayed. Simple, really.
I know, how about just not sleeping with anyone other than your spouse, right? Yes, the “keep it in your pants” argument is working so well for teens, Catholic priests and somewhere between twenty and sixty percent of the married population, depending where you get your stats.
AR@127 Hey – I’m the submissive in our relationship. And it’s my husband (the dom) who wanted to open our marriage. But he didn’t say: “Let me fuck other women or I’ll leave.”
He said (more or less), “I love you and I love fucking you, but I also want to fuck other women.” Our society says that I’m the one who’s supposed to issue an ultimatum at that point: “Stay monogamous or I’ll leave.” I didn’t want to leave. I want 100% of my husband’s non-work time, but it turned out I can’t have that. How much would I get if I walked? None. I’d rather have 90% of his non-work time, than none. Easy choice for me. Not my top choice, but I don’t own him.
If you don’t like your spouse much, then it’s easy to choose to leave if he or she screws up.
If you love your spouse but you can’t stand to think of them with someone else, then you say that. That’s when ultimatums are crucial — when it’s the honest truth about what you can and can’t bear.
mydriasis @131 – thanks for that video – the red latex dress at 2:45 is smoking!
Though it bugs me to hear the bs that if you treat your man right, he won’t stray. Some won’t, some will. A man can love his wife’s cooking better than anyone else’s; he might still want to go out to a restaurant from time to time.
I said committed relationships, not marriages, but I’ve seen the targeting of both in more than a few instances. Obviously we have had different experiences.
I know things have changed over time, but just how assertive are women in initiating courtship and/or seduction. Women flirt, but how many put the moves on men say in bars.
While there are some men who specifically target married women or those in committed relationships. It is much more common for those circumstances to be of no concern to the men. They don’t go out of there, but it doesn’t stop them either.
What people say is often completely different from what they really think or feel. Look at their eyes and body language when you talk about various things. Better yet, be intertwined with them. If they tense up you will have a much better indication about how uncomfortable they are about something or whether they may be cheating. It takes are really accomplished liar to no physical reaction at all.
@EricaP, after reading your comments for awhile now, and yes, I realize we’ve bumped heads slightly a few times, your adaptability to the situation you’re in is something to be commended. I am in a situation in which I am trying incredibly hard to find the strength to adapt if I’m not able to get my SO to see my side of things. I’m not really comfortable putting the entire situation on here… but I just wanted to say that. And… if you have any advice for dealing with a difficult situation so that you can reap the benefits later on… I’d appreciate it.
KateRose@138, if you like, feel free to email me privately at EricaPSavage@gmail. I’m chatty about my own life but I’m pretty good at keeping other people’s secrets.
@Erica
Semi-ironic music video aside… for someone who wants a monogamous relationship, that is the dream, though, isn’t it?
I think that people should have open relationships if they want, and I’m well aware that a lot of men can’t be monogamous (which is why I’m painstakingly selective about who I enter a relationship with) but for those men who can we want to believe that they don’t have regrets about choosing us to be their sole source for sex. (Excluding porn/maturbation/etc) Just like we hope that we’ll choose someone who we won’t regret being our only source.
But that’s me. I just want to be super clear about those two things though.
1. I’m not “against” open relationships, I just would never have one personally.
2. I’m not suggesting that one partner wanting an open relationship implies something negative about the other partner.
“I’m not suggesting that one partner wanting an open relationship implies something negative about the other partner.”
Good to hear – thanks!
@133 “I think you both are very close to saying that if there is no love and respect in the request, then it is not truly an “open marriage”, and that is “No True Scotsman” fallacy.”
I’m saying that any position you talk about with your partner should be discussed in a manner that’s loving and respectful. Whether it’s kids, In-Laws, finances or etc. A relationship should have understanding and compromise. And yeah, it’s not an “open marriage” without that, it’s a marital hostage situation.
“You can have an open marriage where the power partner has basically bullied or outrageously manipulated the weaker partner into accepting the state of affairs.”
Then the weaker partner has much bigger issues than the fact that their SO is fooling around, because from that discription they’re married to a controlling, emotionally abusive asshole and should really be rethinking their commitment to that person entirely.
“I want 100% of my husband’s non-work time, but it turned out I can’t have that. How much would I get if I walked? None. I’d rather have 90% of his non-work time, than none. Easy choice for me. Not my top choice, but I don’t own him.”
What if you had said “no” and stayed in the relationship? Would he just be “kinda bummed”, “totally dissatisfied but willing to stick it out”, or would he have left? When you say “it turned out I can’t have that”, what do you mean, “can’t”? Why can’t you?
“Because you never know, do you?”
Brilliant DS, absolutely brilliant!
@143 – I don’t have him under lock and key. How do you enforce a no? He was telling me what he was going to do. I could stick around, or I could leave.
It’s hard not to speculate on Dan’s dependably rabid defensiveness whenever the “smugsters” tell him about how great monogamy can be…
@93, 127, 131:
There’s no objective standard for how much sex is “reasonable” in a relationship. If someone thinks four times a day is not enough, they have every right to say that the relationship is not working for them, and they need things to change, or else they don’t want to stay in the relationship. Ending the relationship is always an option, as messy and painful as it may be.
As far as cheating goes, it’s never “justified,” but it may be the best of bad options. The measure here is not the frequency of sex, but how satisfied the people are, and how much of a problem it would be to just be honest and end the relationship. If a person is very unsatisfied with sex less than five times a day, and can’t or won’t handle it, then it’s “unreasonable” for their partner to expect them to stay faithful or stay in the relationship when they have less sex.
The standard depends on the person in question. There’s no one-size-fits-all rule like “sex less than once a month is unreasonable and grounds for cheating or breaking up.”
This is for concerned and scared. I’m a 37 year old out gay guy and I didn’t have sex with a guy til I was 24 and didn’t come out til I was 26. I was extraordinarily closeted in middle school / high school, and reading your letter made me remember having dreams, in middle school, of seeing my dad in a more sexual manner- never was full on sex or anything. This definitely passed and there’s never been anything remotely inappropriate about our relationship and I am very happy w guys my age and build (so no lingering daddy fetish). point being, I think the reason my dad appeared in some of these early gay dreams was that he was an accessible man in my life– now I didn’t go as far as your brother (magazine pics, etc.), but I’d say Dan’s advice is spot on— unless you observe something ominous going on between your dad and your brother, but I doubt that’s the case from what you’ve written. So I would suggest you do exactly as Dan suggests, and I’m sure your brother will turn out to be a perfectly ‘normal’, healthy gay guy, and very lucky as well to have you as his understanding big brother
@148 BlackRose
You’ll find lots of people to agree that there is a *right* to feel deprived. The problem is that being deprived leads to harm that isn’t recognized except in a sort of informal way (oh, too bad!). It’s not viewed clinically despite it literally driving people nuts. You’ll know it’s taken seriously when it merits a diagnosis from a doctor.
Here’s a short tip for women:
Your husband likely doesn’t want love outside your marriage. He wants sex outside your marriage. The last person you leave is the wife who is happy to let you have some sex outside your marriage.
Ms Erica @118 – Well stated!
Mr J @129 – [Yes, there’s nothing stopping you from doing that. But what will that get you? Will the threatened partner be happy after relenting? Will you have a healthy marriage? Can you be happy if your spouse is profoundly unhappy?]
It’s quite possible that in most of the marriages I’ve seen happiness is a zero-sum commodity. Possibly not healthy, but the only sort of marriage the participants would be able to manage. Transplant one into a healthy marriage and it would be ruined in less than a year. Very Strindberg, I think.
#135 EricaP
How many years into the marriage was it when your husband wanted the other woman (women)? Did you negotiate how much freedom he could have? Was it part of the deal that you could have others, too? Is he open about how often he is with the others?
@CAS, hmm Ma knew that your bro’s charger would be in the bedside table? I’d bet she knows what else is in there too. But I’d stay silent with her at all costs, even if she hints at it.
Dan, your advice was great. Assuming that the letter is real (reads that way to me), and that Dad’s as straight an arrow as the letter writer, then talking to either of them about the details would be a disaster on wheels.
One exception would be if your little bro brought it up himself, or if you find out that mom or dad has made it an issue with him. In that case, your role would be to say something like, “I’m straight, but without going into the specifics I can tell you that I had some pretty wild sexual obsessions when I was 14. The only difference is no one ever found out about ’em.”
But you only uncork that line is you have to. Otherwise, mum’s the word other than advising him to do a better job hiding the porn. If he asks what you saw, say something, “It looked like pictures of guys, but once I figured out it was porn I really didn’t spend much time with it.”
Let him take the lead. Say as little as possible, but if he wants to talk don’t be squeamish. He already feels like enough of a perv.
@151: Exactly! I think of it like multi-level marketing.. if someone lets you have sex with others, or helps you find sex with others, the sex with others gets credited to them as well.
@150: Did you mean that for me? My point was that everyone will feel uncomfortable, unhappy, or deprived at different points and in different circumstances, so there’s no universal standard for how bad things get before you’re deprived.
@153 – 14 years married. Not really a negotiation, though when I had a panic attack because he called to let me know that a stripper said yes to coming back to his hotel room, he canceled her visit. That helped us figure out that I like a lot of warning and advance discussion.
Not only “can” I have others, he reminds me to go out and sleep with other guys if it has been a while. He wants all the details. We both like to talk about our outside sex in bed — it’s really hot.
The big deal this summer is that now he has a girlfriend too. So, @151 – I hope you’re right, but there are no guarantees.
didn’t read the trash piece, I just came to say it was a little disturbing to see you unable to make eye contact with Mark Cuban…standard new gen punk, sad, grow up.
So, I’d like to know what all these serial non-monogamists and their partners do when they bring home ST diseases…nowadays it is estimated that 3 out of every 4 under-30s is carrying around at least one STD. Do these wives who let hubby chase around ever factor THIS into their equation? Funny, you NEVER hear about THAT part of it, yet, with all the disease out there it’s gotta be happening!
I wonder if EricaP has thought about what she would do if hubby brought home a screaming case of herpes? Cancer-causing genital warts? Or howzabout a roaring case of antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea…I remember reading about women with “grapefruit-sized abcesses” in their fallopian tubes, from gonorrhea their cheatin’ hubbies brought home to them! Or, syphilis? An oldie but a goodie! Lots and lots of little goodies out there just waiting to be caught and spread around!
“I would like to know why my husband is divorcing me to marry an 87-year-old woman”. Uh, because you are an asshole?
Marmaduke@159, thanks for your concern trolling!
We’ve talked about all the STDs and pregnancy issues. We get tested every six months. I’m on the pill and we use condoms religiously. (Even at home, sometimes, so I can verify that he’s able to perform with them on.) But I mean, really, driving home is more likely to kill him, and what are you going to do, stay home the rest of your life? I’m secretly looking forward to getting herpes — there’s a cute boy I can’t have sex with unless I get herpes, because he already has it and volunteered the info right after we kissed.
@161: Odds are, you probably already have it, even if you’ve never been aware of having symptoms. HSV1 is near universal in sexually active adults.
Oh, Erica. So what if you’re educated, aware and careful?
Don’t you know that no matter what precautions you take, a wrathful God will surely smite you for being an adulteress? Double lightning bolts and abscesses for “letting hubby chase around” – although if it were my decision, anyone who uses the word “hubby” or buys into the concept of “letting” another adult do anything would move right up to the front of the smiting queue.
Also, and I only ask after lurking for months – is Hunter an ex of yours? Is there a backstory here? None of my business, of course, and feel free to ignore the question.
Not to be overly pedagogic, but everything has its cost. Ultimately you have to decide if you are willing to the price. Speaking of which every one has their price whether it be money, flattery, or whatever. Some people are just more honest about it (with others or just themselves) Given the right coinage people are willing to do just about anything. What would you do to save the most important thing in your life (like the life of your only Child)
A lot of posters like hypotheticals, so I posted the above in the same spirit. Trite BS maybe, but true none the less.
Lying here listening to Queen’s Somebody to Love repeatedly is making me incredibly sad for so many reasons (among them the lyrics; Freddie Mercury, what a tragedy)
@162 – And yet both me and my husband tested neg for HSV1 & HSV2 this past fall. Go figure.
@163 – I don’t know him aside from Slog. He started things off last summer by asking if I was fat, and followed that up by suggesting that I had a prolapsed vagina. I think both were odd attempts to justify my husband’s desire to sleep with other women. Now it has become a game to him.
@145 You could have responded by saying that in that case you’d go to Europe or some place more exotic for a month by yourself. He said what he was going to do and you responded in kind. By staying you enabled his behavior, by leaving you illustrated my earlier point that everything has its cost. He could play if he was willing to pay your price.
You make it sound like he made a unilateral decision and you could lump it or leave
@ 159 But the STD thing is really not a cheating issue, it’s a ‘sexually active’ issue. Anybody who has sex needs to be aware of them, even the people who think they’re in monogamous relationships.
@167 – your suggestions would suck more than his did. What I want is time with him. As much time as possible before one of us dies. There’s no way to get that by leaving him. Yes, I “enable” his behavior. His behavior is not evil, it is what he needs to do. Why shouldn’t I “enable” it, if I am able to do so without destroying myself?
EricaP you sound like you’re adjusting pretty well to the situation, even if it’s not your first choice. I am curious about a few things:
If you had your way, would you prefer a completely monogamous relationship with your hubby? Are you just doing this for him, or have you started to enjoy the open concept on it’s own merits? Are you in an explicit D/s relationship, or are you just naturally submissive, and that’s the way the power structure has settled?
EricaP
Your life should be a book “One Woman’s Life: Living with Infidelity.” I hope you are saving all your posts. You write so well and I seriously think it could be a best seller. Or else, a self-help book “Surviving Infidelity.”
EricaP @ 170, wow. The strength of your love just shines through that post. Reading it does the heart good. Thank you for continuing to share.
(Sorry Hunter. Suck it up.)
“@143 – I don’t have him under lock and key. How do you enforce a no? He was telling me what he was going to do. I could stick around, or I could leave.”
Well, you sound like a doormat rather than a partner. Take that as you will, but it does not sound to me as if he really had your feelings at heart, because it is clear you would rather have 100% monogamy.
@ 172 It doesn’t sound like she’s living with infidelity whatsoever. She’s in an open relationship. The two are not the same.
@170 The point of the object lesson was to teach your husband about the consequences of making unilateral decisions. Sorry, @168 should have come before @167
You know the comments thread has gone to shit when it’s just a bunch of back and forth attempts at oneupmanship with an “@” prefix. More @ signs = more thoughtlessness.
@177: Or, the @ signs could mean that people are listening and responding to each other.
@EricaP, do you have a blog?
Regarding monogamy, I was in a marriage with a guy who I never thought would cheat. And like the woman who believes that by having regular sex she can insure that her man never wanders, let me tell you, sometimes someone just wants someone new. And he went after someone who was married.
The betrayal was pretty devastating at the time and I wasn’t very fond of him or her. Cheaters are shitty people. Period. No matter who you are in the cheating relationship. The other woman/man or the one in the marriage. Shitty. the both of you.
On the other hand, don’t have any issue with open relationships—if everyone has agreed to it, I can certainly see how it could work just fine.
As for safer practices I suspect that if a person isn’t having multiple sex partners on the sly, sex practices might be safer because no one is in denial about what they are doing. Cheaters can compartmentalize their adventures and compromise their health and that of the unsuspecting partner–and adding to the victimization. Soccer mom might be giving more to her married lovers than she realizes. Besides who knows how many others the married lovers boink as well?
An open question to people in open or poly relationships, where do you find the time without short changing or stealing it from someone or something. Time is the one thing with an absolute limit for everyone. There are only so many hours, minutes, and seconds in a day or lifetime. Even if you are self employed, stealing work time is a bad idea for so many obvious reasons. How do you prioritize when life is so short? Once you subtract sleep time, work time, travel time, prep time, meal time, and all the other daily demands on time; you really don’t have all that much discretionary time. Weekends have their own demands and work often intrudes on your personal time. Children and family make additional demands on your time. Add time spent on the Internet and what do you have left? Personally, I have limited time and even less energy to spend on even one relationship. There are so many interesting things in the world that I’d like to do and experience. If only I had the time. Obviously, the importance of sex varies and affects how your priorities. Not having children simplifies things and you can always ignore the demands of family.
I’ve gotta go now and replace a leaky faucet. Bummer. To Hunter78, @181 were to referencing one or more posters. Or do you believe that EricaP is posting under more than one name. Your was kind of rambling and confusing.
AAAAAAHHHH! There’s no way CAS is going to be able to stuff the daddy sex paper dolls far enough down in his memory hole. I am now going to be plagued by it popping out of my own memory hole and I’m just hearing about it secondhand.
Although this does point out the necessity of Savage Love. I mean, who else was that dude going to tell about this particular problem?
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
@177, Seeds – Actually, I’ve found that the comment thread devolving into multiple @ signs just means that we’re no longer talking about the actual column, hell why would we? We’re, as usual, talking about EricaP’s sex life and marital relationship. See, the comment section of the Savage Love columns are actually “As the EricaP Turns” because nearly every section devolves into a discussion about her. However, Dan’s posts not about sex are wholly ignored by Ms.P.
And, I totally agree with @174, AR. “Honey, I’d like to discuss opening our marriage up” is totally different than “Honey, I’m going to have sex with other women, whether you like it or not. You can totally have sex with other people too! Take it or leave.” That’s not a discussion about changing the parameters of a marriage; that’s a unilateral announcement that one spouse is changing the parameters of the marriage. But hey, the guy doesn’t look at kiddie porn, so he’s a prince!
@171- I think if I had my way, we would go together to play with other people. But, yes, we have in an explicit D/s relationship for even longer than we have been married, and I play by his rules.
@174 – yes, we’re both shits. Good thing we love each other; no one else would put up with us for two minutes.
@172 – thanks for the kind words!
Spot on once again, Dan! Thanks for another great column!
@187 EricaP
Kind words @172, yes, but don’t you want to correct “infidelity?”
@174 AR
Has it occurred to you that maybe she doesn’t have her feelings at heart in the way that you would with your own?
I am a Gay human being on facebook and I came across a Jewish “friend” spouting anti-Gay hatred saying that he wishes Dan Savage gets aids and dies. I am fighting this guy and his nazi Jewish friends on FB – and I need help. This is my blog and my story outlined with them
I thought Dan Savage should know that these people are threatening his life and the lives and rights of gay couples all over the world.
http://wp.me/pDfsx-1oD
The FB “friend” is NOAH DAVID SIMON – I’m trying to get his and his friends off FACEBOOK – help me – we don’t have the need for more religious haters in the world especially on the internet. Faceless cowards who hate.
@190: I think that was sarcasm.
@191: Do you mean that it’s not as important to her as it would be to someone else?
@193 I’m confused why you mention that your friend is Jewish. That detail is unnecessary and is enough to make me scared to click on your link.
@194 BlackRose
Re: @191 I simply saw a presumption on AR’s part. I am not speaking for EricaP. However, different people obviously have different feelings. Why assume that everyone’s “at heart” is the same?
@Mr. J and BlackRose. I was sincerely thanking Amos101 for saying I write well. I don’t argue with the term infidelity because Mr. P did keep his infidelity secret for 4 months before we opened the marriage.
AR@174 thought Mr. P wasn’t being considerate, and I should stand up for myself. The D/s makes that hard for others to understand. I like shaping my life to Mr P’s needs, even when I don’t enjoy the immediate experience.
@Fans & Haters, Sorry, I’m not taking this show to a blog or book. Posting here is therapy for me, and something I hope to outgrow.
EricaP, I’m neither a fan nor a hater, and I hope that you don’t take this the wrong way. But this comment thread doesn’t exist to be anyone’s “therapy,” and when the blog turns into the EricaP therapy hour day after day or week after week, even if the original letter(s) may have little to do with your own experience, then I think you need to find a supplemental or alternate form of therapy.
I really do hope that you find a way to be inside your marriage that works for you, and i realize that from time to time the comments will veer from their original course. I also know that occasionally people’s own stories are warranted or make their way in here (it’s happened to me a few times).
But this blog doesn’t exist to serve the purpose you’re using it for and you are dragging a lot of people–some reluctantly–along with you as you hash through your marital issues. It isn’t fair.
@198 – life’s not fair. Welcome to the internet.
Comments on NSMFA
First of all, kudos on your desire for a situation with more integrity and a confirmation that there ARE situations like that easily available if you spend the time to look.
However, I would like to comment on your feeling that your body needs a fully functioning and capable man. I am not sure of your definition of such, but as a man who struggled with ED and its accompanying relationship issues for many years (pills resulting in strange vision, suction devices [really?], cock rings and small sections of rope, injections [wow, NOT the way to go] and finally the long term and immensely satisfying solution of a penile implant) I can say that, probably unless your husband dated Lorena Bobbitt, there is a solution available to him. Whether or not that will restore a monogamous relationship, or even if you would wish for that, I do not know.
The Eroticist
@198 When did you become Mr. Savage’s spokesman? Mr. Savage seems to me quite capable of speaking up for himself. If Ms. P’s posts were contrary to Mr. Savage’s view of what the blog’s purpose is, I think he’d have told Ms. P by now.
I’d certainly like /ignore functionality, but I wouldn’t use it for Erica.
Gee thanks, EricaP. “Life’s not fair, so I can just hijack any and all threads I like to suit my own purposes. I will do this all the time, despite the fact that I’m irritating people who had a reasonable expectation of something else when they go onto a particular site.” I’ll remember that. Good to note your sensitivity on this point.
@201: As far as what Dan wants, that’s almost beside the point where this issue is concerned. I’m not trying to speak for anyone else but myself, but *I* didn’t realize that the point of the Stranger’s blog was to give unhappy people a forum for discussing their marital issues. If someone wants therapy, she should go to a therapist; if she wants to express herself or write about her own experiences almost exclusively, she can start her own blog.
@202
Nocutename wrote “*I* didn’t realize that the point of the Stranger’s blog was to give unhappy people a forum for discussing their marital issues.”
I believe the whole f___ing point of Dan Savage’s column is to help people (both single and married, straight and gay) with their sexual problems so it’s perfectly appropriate for unhappy married people to discuss their problems here. But you must be confusing Erica with somebody else, because she doesn’t sound unhappy and she isn’t discussing her marital problems but rather her *solutions.*
Erica P., if you ever decide to write a book, I’d love to read your story!
I give up.
Clearly the majority of readers are delighted to read Erica.
@203, You already have.
@204, I’m clearly with you. And if “Life’s not fair. Welcome to the internet” then I never, ever want to hear EricaP’s fawning fans get angry with Hunter78 again. He’s a bully? Too bad; life’s not fair.
Why did you tame down the EricaP Marital Sex History Hour right after Dan asked you to email him, anyway, EricaP? Right after that comment thread, all your comment posts were, zOMG, actually about the column! Why is that?
Dan was just checking in that I’m all right. Christ. Everyone gets their say on the internet, me, you Hunter, Hunter’s critics, nocutename, the period troll, the Professor. Even poor 189/192 above got to have his say posted for a little while before the tech-savvy youth took it down.
Dan keeps posting about non-monogamous marriages. I’m discussing my non-monogamous marriage. Am I bringing in my issues with my children, or my parents, or my writing, or anything except my non-monogamous marriage? Am I wasting posts on Hunter or other meta-issues? As little as possible. But once you allege that I was slapped down by Dan — I can’t let that stand.
I don’t post here often, but I will add my voice to those saying that the EricaP love life story hour shtick week after week is getting tiresome. At first it was interesting, now I find myself rolling my eyes. I get it, EricaP, and you certainly have some insightful things to say, and I know that a bunch of people will shoot me down for saying this…but I am just lending my support to those who think it’s old now, and we need to stop beating the same horse every column. That’s it, feel free to yell at me for being a dumb bitch now.
I’m just so busy laughing at the last letter writer calling herself a “marriage-saving device”. What an arrogant idiot. I would never want my marriage ‘saved’ by some woman sleeping with my husband (if I had one and if our marriage was monogamous). I’d want to know the truth so I could make a decision about my own life. These men’s wives aren’t being allowed to make up their own minds about what’s happening, and that’s pretty disgusting.
@204: Count me as another one who is tired of it.
@203: if you read enough of it, Erica doesn’t sound happy at all, but rather desperate and willing to do anything to keep her extremely self centered husband.
@198 – life’s not fair. Welcome to the internet.
So, Erica, have you ever said whether you are indeed fat? And what about the uterus? Prolapsed or not? Inquirin’ minds want to know!
I rarely post in Savage Love threads, but I do read them. I agree that EricaP’s attention whoring is getting really fucking old.
Get a life, lady. You need to step away from the computer. And I say that as someone who spends a LOT of time in front of an LCD.
While I can understand why some people may not like regularly reading about a particular person’s life story on here, from reading a ways back, it seems that a lot of the regulars seem to have helped each other through things and are keeping each other updated on the changes to their situations.
@210 I don’t know that EricaP is “willing to do anything” or “desperate”. I think that when you know what you want, you’re willing to reevaluate what you thought were hard rules. I’ve had to do a lot of reevalution myself lately, and realized that things I thought I couldn’t deal with I could, because the thought of what would happen otherwise was the worse of the two.
Sidenote to EricaP: Thanks for the advice, things actually seem to have fixed themselves miraculously.
211: Totally irrelevant to the current discussion, but since you are into physical imperfections, care to share your own?
Are you fat? Do you have an atrophied penus?
@204 I got so sick of it, I’ve been gone for about a month. I thought 198 was a clear, polite, thoughtful post and her response to it was just dismissive.
@215: Thanks; I was trying to be clear, polite, respectful, and thoughtful. While I may not be one of her adorning fans, I have always been respectful and supportive of Erica, and though I’ve been getting weary of seeing her co-opt the comment thread time and again with her own marital problems, I would never have said anything to her were it not for her post @197, wherein she said, “@Fans & Haters, Sorry, I’m not taking this show to a blog or book. Posting here is therapy for me, and something I hope to outgrow.”
That’s what I decided to address–the fact that people are growing irritated, and she’s aware of the fact, but refuses to find a more appropriate outlet or forum and recognizes that she’s using this somewhat unwilling audience as a group therapy session. (In a sense, her actions are analogous to her husband’s when he told her that he had been having sex with other women and that he was going to continue to do so and her options were to accept it or leave.)
Her response to me was so bitchy and reeked of so much entitlement that it lost her whatever sympathy I’ve had up to this point. I would never express myself as he does, but I find myself in agreement with Hunter 78 now where EricaP is concerned.
Here’s the thing: we Slog readers aren’t wives who love our husbands so much that we’ll accept a bully’s unilateral terms as she has her husband’s. People are saying (you are one of them) that her dominance of this comment thread for her own purposes is driving them away. I would have thought that someone especially in her position would be particularly sensitive to this type of bullying.
@204, 205, 207, 210, 211, 212, 215: I’m here to say “opening up a monogamous marriage” is hard, and here’s the play-by-play to illustrate my point. There are plenty of people who are interested in my posts. Why does my presence makes Slog intolerable for you? Am I bringing up painful issues for you? Why don’t you just skip my posts and those about me? “Oh, it’s an Erica-related post, guess I won’t read it.” Why is that so hard?
@216 – I’m bullying you into reading my posts? The people telling me to shut up are not bullies? I’m the bully? Got it.
arrgh: should be “adoring fans” in the second sentence of the first paragraph.
@EricaP, A question is not the same as an allegation. I meant to ask a question, but I did in fact make an allegation. Either way, it was rude of me and frankly, it was none of my damn business. I’m sorry. My behavior was inappropriate and not usually like me, and I owe you that apology.
That being said, cut the BS @217 that I in any way shape or form have made it hard to open about your open marriage. I’ve made no judgments about your marriage or your sex life. What I’ve made judgments and arguments about is the nonstop discussion of and reports about your marriage and sex life, regardless if it has anything to do with the column. Look back at my comments; you’ll find no comments about your decision to open up your marriage, only your decision to endless bring it up. The only inappropriate comment I’ve made, I’ve apologized for. Because it was wrong, and I was wrong.
@204, 205, 207, 210, 211, 212, 215: I’m here to say “opening up a monogamous marriage” is hard, and here’s the play-by-play to illustrate my point. There are plenty of people who are interested in my posts. Why does my presence makes Slog intolerable for you? Am I bringing up painful issues for you? Why don’t you just skip my posts and those about me? “Oh, it’s an Erica-related post, guess I won’t read it.” Why is that so hard?
EricaP, I usually read Dan in print, not online. As a result, I’d never heard of you until this thread. I was sympathetic to you until your crack (pun intended) about how life ain’t fair on the Internet.
That goes for you too. There aren’t any uncomfortable issues coming from you. I figure you’re a laughable and kinda pathetic hosebag, but aren’t they all? I wish you’d post your picture. I want to see how much you weigh.
@Leeny, like I say I don’t have a clue about EricaP, but my instincts tell me that she is not a woman to be apologized to.
@182
YES. THIS.
Between work, school, studying, sleeping, eating, showering, grooming, cooking, grocery shopping and transit time I generally have… two or three social time blocks per week. Usually about two of those go to the s/o and the other one (if I have it) goes to seeing friends. Why would I want to put someone else in the picture? It would just mean less time with the guy I actually want to fuck.
@222, @223, Thanks, Jake, but this time, I call shithead on my own behavior. She deserves the apology I offered. However, I’m done with the discussion. As EricaP as already stated, she doesn’t care what anyone else feels or thinks, this is her therapy. I suspect she enjoys the continued argument about the subject. Less attention from hubby=more attention seeking elsewhere. Like a child, she doesn’t care if it’s positive or negative attention. So, I’m done. Done with the argument, and at least for awhile, done with the Savage Love column. I need a break.
@221/225 – sorry you feel driven off. Thanks for the (unnecessary) apology. I’ve no idea what you mean with this line @225: “cut the BS @217 that I in any way shape or form have made it hard to open about your open marriage. I’ve made no judgments about your marriage or your sex life.”
When did I ever say you did?
Oh! When I said “here’s the play-by-play,” you thought I meant, here, today, on Slog, we see the play-by-play of why it’s hard to open my marriage. So sorry for that miscommunication.
@217, I meant:
>> I’m here on Slog to say “opening up a monogamous marriage is hard, and here are the ongoing stories from my life to illustrate my point”>>
Does that make it more clear?
@217 “I’m here to say “opening up a monogamous marriage” is hard, and here’s the play-by-play to illustrate my point.”
What makes your situation hard isn’t common to open marriages. Your marriage was opened up in the worst possible way. Also, you shouldn’t be in a open marriage. It clearly causes you mass amounts of undue stress. And I say that making the assumption that you (please let it be true) are being hyperbolic when you write “panic attack”.
“There are plenty of people who are interested in my posts. “
Blog.
“Why does my presence makes Slog intolerable for you? Am I bringing up painful issues for you?”
Sort of.
I am in a monogamous relationship because I would fall apart in an open one. I’m too insecure and needy. I get that there totally are people who can do it, there are people happier in open relationships than who are in closed ones. I’m sort of in awe of people like that.
I’m not one of them. Neither are you. So, reading your posts is like watching somebody jam an ice pick into her eyeball while explaining that she’s ultimately her happiest overall as long as she keeps jamming this ice pick into her eyeball.
“Why don’t you just skip my posts and those about me? “Oh, it’s an Erica-related post, guess I won’t read it.” Why is that so hard?”
You obviously have a very high I.Q. and your strength is verbal. And I think this is your addiction, to post and intellectualize about the thing that is causing you pain. That’s how you ameliorate your distress, by getting in your head about it.
So you do it a great deal. You’ve come to rely on it, I think. The only time you are ever a shitty person is when somebody tries to tell you you post too much. You get defensive like an addict.
Think about that. Jake only knows you really from how you responded to that criticism. He seems to really dislike you. People normally like you a lot. What does that tell you? That’s how defensive you get about it.
So, I believe that, on some level, you understand how much you post and why that would make you hard to avoid. But, no, it’s not a case of saying, “Oh, it’s an Erica related post, I’ll skip it.” Often, it’s more of, “Oh, it’s not an Erica post, cool!” or “Wow, if I had gotten here in the first few hours, there was a whole non-Erica conversation that happened before Erica showed up,” and that quickly becomes, “Why do I even read these comment threads?”
@228
the joke is – you’d probably make a decent therapist. Erica would be better off if she had one, IMHO.
anyway I really enjoyed your post.
@228 my life has its ups and downs, but it’s not like jamming an ice pick in my eye. Junior high was like that, and childbirth. But thanks for the reminder to post more about the joys of my life! Sorry — I was just teasing. I’ll be good. No more well-meaning interventions, please!
Only non-well-meaning ones??
Just to be clear, my above comment was not meant to be snark. My personal penchant for therapy rivals that of Woody Allen.
EricaP, besides being fat and having a prolapsed uterus, do you have stretch marks around your mouth? Carpal tunnel in one or both of your hands from jacking off all those dudes? How’s your gag reflex? Just askin’ because we know that the Internet just ain’t fair.
@228: I’m too insecure and needy for monogamy.
You don’t have to be in awe of people who prefer or can handle non-monogamous relationships: we’re not necessarily any better or more stable than you.
That’s sort of like straight people being in awe of gay people. I mean, I don’t intuitively get how it’s possible to be turned on by a cock and not by a pussy. Or how it’s possible to be turned on by the same genitals you already have and not by different ones. But I know everyone’s wired differently.
@233, yes, and some people are bi. Similarly, I can go either way on the monogamous/non-monogamous scale. My sexuality is defined by my submission; control over my husband’s sexuality is the last thing I want.
I just don’t see why the SL community was happy to tell that poor woman it was her duty to sit on her dying husband’s face… and yet people think I’m abused because I’m trying to come to terms with my husband’s sexual needs. He’s sweet, funny, a good provider, a dominant who gets my need to serve, hot stuff in the sack. If he had become impotent, that wouldn’t be my first choice of lifestyle, but I’d deal with it. Instead he became eager to have sex with others. It’s not easy for me, but I’m dealing with it. I think those of you who think I should walk away from a great marriage just because it got harder this year don’t know much about me, and don’t know much about decades-long marriage.
@234: Plus he lets you get with more dominant guys than him when you need it, which is a big deal… kind of the female equivalent of a guy wanting to have sex with girls younger and skinnier than his SO.
To the guy w a possibly gay younger brother. First, Dan, once more, the wisdom was flowing. About the incestuous fantasies. Freud taught us to take this literally, and Jung taught us to look at it symbolically. This young guy’s fantasy may be about wanting to stay in childhood. Or it may be that he can’t think of any other way to be really close to his dad. Like a lot of other people, he may just tend to sexualize relationships.
Or, #236, maybe his dad is hot.
@234: I’ve been married longer than you, so cut the bull about not knowing about decades long marriage.
You have repeatedly stated that you are worried he will get more attached to his girlfriend, he will leave you, etc. You are insecure about his committment to you and apparently he is not doing his job in alleviating these fears. This is NOT part of the normal D/s relationship, this is him just being a sucky, self centered spouse. He is not being there for you in very very important ways. Great marriages don’t make a person worry about their spouse leaving. Sheesh
Erica, read Wednesday’s SLOTD. If you are GGG yet uncomfortable with your spouse fucking around, you should be able to put the cabosh on his fucking around.
What? He said he would fuck around anyway, with or without your permission? He’s a CPOS, NOT a great guy.
@235 outside the marriage I’m mostly getting dommed by a transwoman and her “pet”, actually.
@238 Read “Opening up” and tell me that people who open their marriages don’t experience jealousy and anxiety. My fears aren’t rational, they just are. And I’m working through them.
@239 – He’s not cheating since I know what he’s doing. He’s in charge of our relationship, which is how we like it. Not everything has to be comfortable and easy in order to be positive and good in the long run.
um, I am just a lurker but did none of you guys catch the missions trip comment? Regular families do not have brothers on long term missions trips. This family is very religious and I would bet a million dollars that being gay is just as twisted to this poor kid as incest fantasies. This sounds just like the target audience for the It Gets Better videos. This kid is dealing with some issues and his mother deliberately sent his accepting older brother to find his stash. As a mom, I know that last thing my son wants to deal with is that I know where his porn is (and yes I do). She is trying to get her kid some help so just telling the poor confused brother to hide his stash better is NOT the solution.
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