I’m a 20-year-old straight male, but this isn’t really about me.
I was recently back home for a family event while my younger brother, age 14, was away on a mission trip with his church. My iPad died while I was home and my mother told me to look in the kitchen drawers for a charger. I couldn’t find one there, so she told me to check my brother’s bedside table. I opened the drawer and, with a little digging, found a charger.
I also found a few pictures of gay porn and a couple of pictures of male celebrities with their shirts off that had been clipped from magazines. It isn’t the gay porn I have a problem with—I fully support him coming into his sexuality, whatever it might be—but then I found a few things that were a bit more disturbing: a picture of our father in his swim trunks, and another one of a fully naked man with a cutout photo of my father’s face glued over the original model’s face. Needless to say, I was freaked out. I put everything back where I had found it, including the charger, and haven’t said anything to him about it. Now I’m in a tough spot. I know that telling my brother I found the pictures would mortify him, and I feel like telling my father would be a complete dick move.
Concerned And Scared
I can appreciate why those pictures squicked you out—a family member lusting after a family member? Ughers—but I don’t understand exactly what it is you’re afraid of, CAS. While your brother appears to have an inappropriate and—fingers crossed—fleeting sexual obsession with your father, can you picture a scenario in which your brother’s desires, however devoutly wished, could be consummated?
Unless something much, much squickier is going on back home, your brother isn’t a danger to your father, CAS, nor is your father a danger to your brother. The only danger I can see is in the false choice you’ve laid out in your letter. Saying something to your brother will only poison your relationship with him; saying something to your father will certainly kill his relationship with his son. And destroying either relationship over what is most likely a temporary bonerstorm-of-puberty-induced obsession—an obsession that will soon be a distant and unpleasant memory for your brother—seems a bit extreme.
If those pictures weren’t in a place where your parents might also find them, CAS, I would advise you to stuff this one way down the ol’ memory hole. But there they are, in a place where Mom and Dad—BUT ESPECIALLY DAD—might find ’em. So you’re going to memorize this and say it your brother ASAP: “Hey, kiddo, Mom told me to look in your nightstand drawer for an iPad power cord. I found one—along with what looked like gay porn. I didn’t peruse your porn collection too closely because I wanted to respect your privacy. But you need to get that stuff out of the house before Mom or Dad finds it. It’s cool with me if you’re gay, and I love you and it makes no difference—but leaving porn around is not how you want to come out to Mom and Dad, okay?”
Then tell him that grown-ups don’t keep porn in their bedside tables anymore: The internet is for porn, and he can access all the porn he likes safely and discreetly on his iPad.
I would like to know why my husband is divorcing me to marry an 87-year-old woman.
Extremely Humiliated
Only your husband knows the real reason, EH, but if I were to hazard a couple of guesses: Either this woman is extremely wealthy or your husband is a gerontophile. Sadly, neither makes this situation any less humiliating for you. But try to look at the bright side: No one who hears what your husband has done—and no one who knows you both personally—is going to think there’s something wrong with you.
I am a 43-year-old mother of three, married for almost 20 years. Three years and one child in, my husband confessed that he had a penchant for being a BDSM sub. My reaction was, “Okay, I’ll try it, but if you want to explore that with pro doms, be my guest.” Which he did.
Fast-forward a dozen years. I’m going bonkers because my husband is impotent. And don’t tell me ED can be fixed, because in our case it couldn’t. And don’t tell me there are alternatives (oral, manual, toys), because all of those are just not the same for me. My body needs a fully functioning and capable man. So my husband gives me his “blessing” to take a lover. I didn’t even have to ask! I just needed to be miserable and depressed for a dozen years!
Now I have two lovers. One lives far away, and I see him a few times a year; the other is local. The problem is that they are both married to spouses who don’t know. Like me, neither of my lovers is interested in divorce. That’s the good news. The bad news is that I’m not happy with the integrity of these situations. I know that what I am doing is considered despicable by many people, despite the fact that I’m probably a marriage-saving device for both of these women. (Their husbands are happier, I’m not trying to steal their husbands, and I’m not a financial burden on either of them.) I would love to find someone in an honest open relationship, but this has so far eluded me. So I guess my question is: How do I set up a situation with more integrity when the world isn’t really ready for people like me?
Normal Soccer Mom From Afar
The answer NSMFA seeks is obvious—there are hard-up single men out there, married men in honest open relationships, men in the organized swinging movement, and she should go fuck some of them—but I’m including NSMFA’s problem in the column for all the smug monogamists sending me angry letters in the wake of Mark Oppenheimer’s recent feature about monogamy and its discontents in the New York Times Magazine (“Married, with Infidelities,” June 30, 2011). While regular readers of Savage Love know where I stand on monogamy—with the realists, monogamous or not—not many readers of the New York Times knew where I stood.
Anyway, smugsters, here’s what I think is interesting about NSMFA’s letter: Everyone involved is perceived to be in a monogamous relationship, by their friends, family members, neighbors, bosses, coworkers, elected representatives, etc.; two of the women involved—the duped wives of the men that NSMFA is seeing on the side—may actually believe themselves to be in monogamous relationships. But not one of these three couples—not one of these six “traditionally married” straight people—is actually in a monogamous relationship.
Just something to keep in mind, monogamists, before you hit “send” on your e-mail to me about your beautiful, deep, and meaningful monogamous relationship, about how your parents never cheated on each other, about how none of your married friends would ever cheat on their spouses, and about how people like me have no idea what real love means because we’re not in monogamous relationships, etc., etc., etc.
Because you just never know, do you?
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
I thought you’d point out that EH is an agist asshole.
I mean, you’re totally right, but still.
Dan, NSMFA wrote in @96 in the SLLOTD, and it was premature ejaculation after all, not ED. Can you restore?
How do we know EH’s age or gender? Maybe this is all some drama at the retirement home.
Great suggestion to CAS. I remember back when I was a teenager my parents found a kinky sex story I had written and tried to have a ‘talk’. One of my least-favorite memories.
I love you Dan. You’re right about all of it. I say this from the safe and serene place of having just consummated my first nonmonogamous relationship (all parties know and approve). Never would have happened in a million years without you Dan.
Monogamy, non-mongamy… Really, this is all about people wanting to believe something is NORMAL, and feeling bad and/or angry if someone else tells them it’s not normal. Because apparently it’s difficult for us to live with the knowledge that different people may prefer different lifestyles. Noooo, we need one of these lifestyles (ours, if possible) to be ‘normal’, so that we don’t have to justify it by saying, ‘I dig it!’ Nooo, I don’t do what I do because I like it; I do it because “it’s normal”.
Normalophilia is an intriguing condition. I feel like asking every person in the world: pick something ‘normal’ that you like. It doesn’t even have to be sexual (though it’s especially strong with sexual matters). Now, how would you feel if you liked it just as much — but you happened to be only one of a few people who like it? If others said ‘oh, how infrequent!’ if you mentioned it. If you felt as if you had to explain why you like it (’cause, dude, ‘normal’ people don’t).
Now you wouldn’t like that, would you? 🙂
Maybe Dan is right and monogamy is a ‘burden’ for most people. Maybe monogamists are right and it isn’t. Either way, nobody is going to change their taste, is anybody?
(Except, of course, that there was social pressure in favor of monogamy — so non-monogamic people had to suffer under the ‘expectation of monogamy’ and the prejudice according to which anyone who is non-monogamous is a liar, coward, doesn’t know love, etc. That is indeed just prejudice, and should be abandoned. But let’s not do the opposite, guys. Nobody needs a world in which monogamous people feel discriminated against because of being monogamous.)
#3 I doubt EH would mention the other woman’s age in such a manner if her husband and herself were in that same age group.
@8, I can’t help it, I like picturing EH as a 97 year old gay guy.
This is just hypothetical hand-wringing, but am I the only one who thought that perhaps the origins of CAS’s bro’s picture of dad could be the results of abuse? It doesn’t change a single thing about the advice to CAS, but perhaps that’s what they meant by “concerned and scared.”
Mostly, I just don’t know how to bring up non-monogamy without sending the spouse into a tailspin… even though I suspect he might be okay with it, the social conditioning is deep, deep, deep. If the conditioning trumps desire – or if he’s truly not okay with it – how do we go on from there? Does opening up the marriage solve anything and allow us to continue on as partners, or would it be addressing a symptom, not the problem? How would we negotiate trust issues; what would the new standard be? How do you handle disclosure – DADT, need-to-know, some variant?
This is why “normal” is so damn seductive in a depressing, soul-killing way – it’s a hell of a lot easier. No risk. Familiar, comfortable despair.
@11 can you bring it up as fantasy? Admit that sometimes before you orgasm you think about other guys (movie stars are the least threatening, I guess), and ask if he has any similar fantasies? Bottom line is there’s no safe way to get through life. The “no risk” (aka “soul-killing despair”) route can also lead to divorce. Or to a lifetime of unhappiness.
@6 — Congratulations on doing it right, Tramu. We hear too much about the CPsOS in this column. Hope it was as fulfilling as it sounds.
Anyone think the first letter about the naked dad is a fake? Seems just sensational enough to make it to the top of the pile. Plus, writer: “telling my father would be a *complete dick* move” – har har. I say, FAKE.
@11: Erica’s idea of bringing up fantasies is good; another suggestion would be to discuss what it would take to break up your relationship. That’s how one of my friends opened his relationship; he and his gf were talking about hypothetical things that would break them up, and when they realized that “fucking someone else” was something they could both work through, it got the wheels turning.
As for whether openness would address problems in the relationship or just the symptoms – that’s a tough call. All I can say is, do a lot of soul-searching, starting with: are you in love with your partner or kind of blah about them and sticking around out of inertia? Do the two of you have the communication skills necessary to pull off an open relationship? Maybe the idea of you being with someone else appeals to you, but how do you feel at the idea of him being with someone else – could you handle it? What would your ground rules be? Etc.
My bf and I have talked about playing with other people (although nothing’s happened yet). We have some ground rules set up, and we’ve agreed not to even think about pursuing anyone else if we’re having issues with our own relationship. I’m pretty confident that, thanks to all our discussion and planning, if an opportunity for other-people-makeouts comes up, we’re equipped to handle it. Hopefully you and your partner can get there, too!
A CPOS is a CPOS is a CPOS and anyone who is in a relationship with CPOS is a POS. That NSMFA would choose to be in relationships with two CPOS makes her a double dipped POS. However she chooses to rationalize things should not obscure the reality that she chooses to be a party to behavior that places two families at risk. Granted that this would be true without her, still it says a lot about her own lack of integrity. It is telling that she makes no attempt to defend or justify the actions of the two CPOS. Her lame defense of her behavior as a marriage-saving device assumes that marriages based on lies, deceit, and betrayal are worth saving. Mine certainly wasn’t and I’m definitely better off free of it.
Dan is wrong, only two of the six possibly think they are in straight, traditional, monogamous marriages. The other four know they aren’t. Unless there is something more that Dan isn’t sharing, he is over reaching with his statements about how these people and their marriages are perceived. There are true monogamists, realistic monogamists, failed monogamists, deceived monogamists, and smug, self righteous monogamists. In some respects pseudo monogamists are similar to gays who married and had families as protective coloring.
Psst. Two people willing to lie to their partners, plus one person more than happy to be an accessory to those lies, might not be what you want the face of nonmonogamy to look like. It’s common knowledge that people cheat, no matter how NSMFA might like to dress things up.
#11: I have a simple two step thought experiment for potential polyamorists. Picture your partner having hot, heavy, screaming sex with someone else. Now imagine them going out with someone else, becoming close, and bonding over interests they share that you’re not involved in. If either of these images make you sick to your stomach, be warned; unless you’re a total twat, both of the above will happen.
That’s not to say that you shouldn’t open your relationship up. You can always broach the topic as “I’ve heard something about…” to gauge interest. Just that I don’t think enough people think through the flip side of opening things up – that your partners can also be expected to become physically and emotionally intimate with other people – and tend to torture both logic and their relationships in an attempt to undermine that.
I agree with those who have problems concerning your response to EH. How do you know that EH is not 95, and her humiliation doesn’t stem from being dumped for a younger woman? And what in principle is wrong with an 87-year-old, outside of any context?
And yes my post is intentionally hostile and incendiary. Let the pillorying begin.
@Littlesoul42,
The tone of the letter is pretty incredulous. Like EH still hasn’t shaken the surreal quality of this event. Not something you hear when a man chases a younger woman. As for what’s wrong with a 87 yr old, nothing. But imagine that for your whole life you did everything to combat aging for the sake of being attractive…only to have your partner leave you for an OLDER woman.
@19 As long as it isn’t about pet parents again.
how did dan not address the fact that this NSMFA woman waited 12 YEARS for her husband to “offer” sex outside the marriage. 12 YEARS?! how on earth do you encourage your husband to go see a pro dom and then wait 12 YEARS to finally get something for yourself?
Ms Erica – Cute, but then we’d know who EH is, as he’d certainly have been in the news when the couple married.
I suppose we could tell EH, if she’s female, that he really, really REALLY doesn’t want children.
Judging from what I see of a retirement home every week, possibles to toss out:
* she’s outlived all her heirs
* she’s not on a walker
* she has the best suite in the building
* she’s the best bridge player in the home
@21 You must have me confused with someone else because I wasn’t involved in the pet parent thread.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I’ve done most of the thought experiments on my own; as someone who’s never had a problem distinguishing love from sex, a lot of those issues just aren’t issues for me. The outside interest/bonding thing is fine, too – we both have always, always respected each other’s need for space, alone time and separate friends. I don’t think (for myself) that adding sex into the mix would be much of a problem… but depending on the time and attention I might have to give up, who knows? That could change.
And one more thing: we have a five-year-old daughter with some special needs that won’t resolve for a while. This a major stressor; although I believe we deal with her particular issues very, very well, the road is grueling and exhausting. Again, I wonder whether an open marriage would add to or lessen the stress. More importantly, I will not do anything to endanger her home. Period. She needs both of us in one house. I’m not miserable most of the time, and when I am… well, you get the picture. How important is one aspect of my life compared to all the other wonderful parts of it? It’s not all about me.
Sorry to go on. I have one good friend I can discuss this with, and that usually results in a litany of reasons to leave. Not an option. Thanks for letting me vent n a safe space, and for being so kind and thoughtful in your responses.
The Joe Newton illustration is wonderful.
And horrible.
One more thing: I had a long and interesting sexual career before marriage, including two polyamorous relationships. One worked very well; one was a constant dull drama (and therefore very short-lived). I think I flung myself into the normalcy trap and convinced myself that my natural proclivities were “wrong.” This also includes my kinky side, which has been buried now for more than a decade. So here we are.
I love you, Dan. And I’m in a happy monogamist relationship… except for the part where my boyfriend and I both have sex happily on the side… and together because neither of us are impotent.
@ 27 — My marriage has different dynamics than yours so I don’t know if my advice is relevant. But as far as suggesting open marriage without putting your spouse into a tailspin: reassurance. Guarantees of loyalty, however you can provide them. At least, that’s what I needed. And step up the affection. Show him you’re suggesting an enhancement to your marriage, not an escape from it.
And he gets to play too, right? Might be worth stressing.
Also, here’s a testimonial: opening up my marriage was the biggest, scariest, stomach-lurchingest decision this side of having kids, and I have no regrets. Downsides are obvious and issues of jealousy and insecurity had to be dealt with as they cropped up. But upsides outweigh them: my wife and I are closer and more committed now, and we’ve fallen in love again; our sex life is turbo charged; our sexual possibilities have widened; my wife transformed almost overnight into a more self-confident, self-accepting, sexual woman; and now that I know I’m in no danger of losing her, I’ve actually started enjoying her encounters, never mind the new appetite for pleasure they’ve awoken in her. In our case, everyone won (including her lover). I’m not saying it’ll work for you guys, or for anyone else for that matter, but I thought you might like to hear from at least one husband who has no regrets.
And actually, now that I’m used to it, it’s kind of exciting to know that my wife has a bit of the uninhibited slut in her (sex-positive sense, not derogatory). Maybe your husband can learn to appreciate the same about you. Good luck.
To EH: maybe she’s a wonderful caring attractive woman (because that’s independent of age)… and you’re not (ditto).
Yes, little brother will totally know that big brother saw the daddy porn from that part about “along with what looked like gay porn. I didn’t peruse your porn collection too closely because I wanted to respect your privacy”. Just say you saw he had gay porn that mom and dad could easily find too and leave it at that. If the daddy stuff was not on top, the less said the better.
I think CAS has another sibling who is trying to get back at CAS’s little brother. Why else would he have such obvious sicko porn – in hard copy, too – lying where just about anyone could find it?
Or perhaps the mother is the freaky one – she did direct CAS to the bedside table in the first place….
@15 perversecowgirl
Knock, knock. Who’s there? Opportunity…
@16 – I think you misread Dan’s response. He says that those six people’s friends and family all think they’re in monogamous marriages, and two of the six might even think that themselves. I’m not sure where you’re getting the impression that all six of them think they’re in “straight, traditional, monogamous marriages”.
Or perhaps the mother is the freaky one – she did direct CAS to the bedside table in the first place….
I doubt it, but if she did, she probably was hoping the brother would have that uncomfortable conversation so she wouldn’t have to.
@25 Your by the way middle paragraph changes the dynamics and a whole lot of other things.
Adding sex to the mix always complicates things.
I know personally just how much stress there is in being a caregiver. You are so right about it being grueling and exhausting. How tempting and exciting it was to escape; but I caution you that over time it will be increasingly hard to go back to the caregiver role. At least it was for me. Your level of frustration, bitterness, and resentment will increase if only because of how your escape contrasts with your caregiver role. Your marriage will probably suffer particularly if only one of you seeks the form of escape you are considering. You will be depressed more often and that will become apparent to your spouse. He will eventually put two and two together and associate it with your escape. More and more you will question whether the sacrifices are worth it. You don’t say whether your daughters needs are open ended, it will be easier if they aren’t and she displays measurable improvement over time. No matter how well intentioned your motives, how deep your love or how strong your commitments to your daughter and marriage are going in, they will wane over time (its only human nature unless you are really a saint or are willing to be a martyr) I have lived it and seen it happen with too many other caregivers. The role tends to consume pretty much everyone and everything, but then mine was an open ended commitment that I finally had to walk away from into order to survive when I increasingly self medicated with alcohol to deal with the hopelessness.
To all you other posters, I know your advice is well intentioned, but please refrain unless you are a caregiver, have been a caregiver, or have close personal experience with someone who is one. It really is a whole different world. Even the guilt associated with an affair does not come close to the long term guilt that can be associated with being a caregiver or for someone who walks away from the role.
I do feel like Dan kind of dodged NSMFA’s question.
I can’t help thinking of the Culture Gabfest’s piece on Dan a couple weeks ago. With the exception of Dana Stevens, they all basically agreed with Dan about monogamy in theory and then promptly fell over themselves to say no, nothing Dan says applies to their own relationships, no sir, not at all. And these aren’t cultural conservatives. These are just people in relationships that probably could not withstand the public pursuit of non-monogamy.
NSMFA’s question seems dumb because we’re reading it in Savage Love. But this isn’t a kinkster with an unquenchable desire for something out of the ordinary that society frowns upon. This is something more boring than that. It’s not that NSMFA’s *can’t* walk into a swing club or date a man in an open relationship with his wife. It’s that these kind of things probably don’t turn her crank. Which is fine.
NSMFA wants a husband with a dick that works. I know Dan’s stance on divorce when kids are in the picture. But I think this may be case where it’s not just that the husband can’t give the wife what she needs, it’s that the MARRIAGE can’t give the wife what she needs despite the husband’s good intentions. Being this guy’s primary partner is an impediment to the kind of sex life she wants and I don’t think there’s anything either one of them can really do to fix that. IMO.
Monkey: Opening your relationship because you feel trapped is not a good move. The new relationship you add will be like any new relationship; some possibility of finding someone you can truly bond with, more likely to be exciting but ultimately requiring more energy than you get back out. I strongly suggest talking about kink with your husband, probably taking the initiative as well, but opening things up is astronomically unlikely to help you find that one special person who makes it all better.
You sound like you want people you can rest on when you’re feeling too stressed, and if you’re being honest, the opportunity to take a break every now and then. And there’s nothing wrong with saying that you love both your husband and daughter, but that you also need to take a night off every now and then. Either separately by letting the other person stay at home, or together by calling a sitter who can handle your kid while the two of you date and unwind. Monogamy does not preclude close friends, and it sounds like outside sex is tangential to your needs now.
The first letter is so fucking fake!
I don’t think anyone else here has said this, but Dan you were great on The Colbert Report last night! Such a fun banter between the two of you (esp when you made him lose it) and good to see you both sitting across from someone who can keep up.
The point is not whether monogamy is right, wrong, or even possible. The point is, those two women do believe themselves to be in monogamous relationships–**because their husbands promised that and have not indicated anything has changed**.
You can want out. You can just want something on the side. You can want someone new in. Whatever. But being deceitful is NOT the way to go.
So NSFMA can spare us all patting herself on the back for “saving their marriages.” Please. If (or, probably, when) the wives find out, they will not see it with that way.
If the husbands are unsatisfied, it is their obligation to work it out with their wives, however hard it is, and even if it means divorce. Maybe some wives would truly prefer their husbands to get some discreetly on the side and never know, but you can’t know that without asking, and presuming it to justify your cheating is ridiculous.
The point is not whether monogamy is right, wrong, or even possible. The point is, those two women do believe themselves to be in monogamous relationships–**because their husbands promised that and have not indicated anything has changed**.
You can want out. You can just want something on the side. You can want someone new in. Whatever. But being deceitful is NOT the way to go.
So NSFMA can spare us all patting herself on the back for “saving their marriages.” Please. If (or, probably, when) the wives find out, they will not see it that way. They will feel deceived, betrayed, and foolish. They will feel the rug pulled out from under them (and their children, if any.) Except in rare circumstances, it will make them feel their lives have been a sham, and the person they most trusted is the reason. And even if some wives would truly prefer their husbands to get some discreetly on the side and never know, you can’t know that without asking, and presuming it to justify your cheating is ridiculous.
If the husbands are unsatisfied, it is their obligation to be adults and work it out with their wives, however hard it is, and even if it means divorce. But you don’t just change the rules unilaterally and without notification.
Re: CAS, his mom TOLD him to look in the drawer. No thoughts about the mom wanting the son to see that stuff and do something about it?
As a 13 year old gay boy in the mid 60’s, I defintely went thru a blessedly short period where I was obsessed with my father’s dick. Having grown up well adjusted, and an admitted size-queeen, I think I know why. He had by far the biggest dick I had ever seen. I was fascinated by it.
I also remember a recurring dream about the Giant of Jack and Beanstalk, and wrapping my arms around his fine member. Both were fantasies that quickly faded.
But as I matured, I did get further proof that I am genetically related to my father. Thanks Dad!
Every time there’s a letter from an adult that involves finding something sexual and surprising in a teenager’s private space (father porn on the bedside, sneezing fetishes on the computer history), I wonder if I should be cheering for the teenager for coming up with the perfect way to give the big FUCK YOU to the snoopers.
Sigh–we have to endure “normal soccer mom” again? Normal, at least, until one gets close enough to see that she’s a lying, cheating bitch who justifies it to herself on the grounds that her lovers’ wives don’t have to worry about her stealing their husbands or their money? Please spare me these idiots. If the goal is to offer up examples of “non-monogamy: doing it wrong!”, then this letter fits right in. Psst! Lady! Maybe if you spent less time fucking married men, the unmarried, eligible ones would be less “elusive”. Idiot.
The last letter, the only two getting burnt there are the two women who don’t know their husbands are “dipping their wicks” elsewhere. She’s concerned about the integrity and it actually isn’t her problem. She ought to just cut it off with both of them and start over with looking for a single man. It sounds like she’s complaining over nothing, really. Oh, wait. I forgot about the typical, male, straight mind. As soon as they find out there’s “no commitment” from the woman they’re having sex with, that is when they “fall in love.” I see her problem, now. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha…
The second letter sounds like a fake. Somewhere, there’s a room full of frat boys laughing at a computer screen….
The first one was answered very well so not much more to add there. The guy may want to confirm that “dad” isn’t being a bit too familiar with his brother, though. Otherwise, it is mortifying to have that porn stash found, that’s for sure.
Gotta disagree Suzy and Infidel. A marriage is a commitment two people make to each other, not a commitment they extract from the rest of the world. NSFMA isn’t cheating on her husband and she is not bound to respect marriages that are not her own. If the idea behind marriage is to grab a good partner before anyone else can claim them, well, you’re doing monogamy wrong.
That being said, NSFMA obviously doesn’t like doing it very much and would like to do things differently. Now maybe she’s just had rotten luck and has only tumbled into bed with married men. Maybe she’s got a thing for married men. As I suggested earlier, maybe swinging and open-relationships are a turn-off for her. I think she ought to leave her husband, co-raise their child responsibly, and date again because it seems pretty clear a publicly monogamous is what she’s after. But that’s just me.
Suzy – misdirected venom, there. You are doing what so many women do: blame other women for their husbands/partners infidelties. The two men who are cheating on their wives are in the wrong for lying to their spouses. So, if your husband, boyfriend cheated, you’d keep him and direct your anger at the woman he cheated with? That’s a mighty tall order you’re putting on one human being there – the belief that one man is so perfect that he isn’t guilty of cheating but other women are always in the wrong. How do you know they aren’t lying to their wives at every turn? That is usually the case.
Hmmmm, strange but not unusual priorities. In fact, it is typical.
There will come a time when you will want to believe in your own self worth and not blame other women. If your husband is cheating then HE is cheating and who he’s cheated with is irrelevant. You may never even know them but you will STILL have a cheating, piece of shit who YOU supported in your home.
Figure it out. One day, you may have to rely on other women so you may want to get used to liking yourself as a woman AND giving other women a chance as well.
Dan,
Usually I can go along with you, but your response to EH revealed some distressing ageism and sexism.
Maybe because she’s his soulmate?
Maybe because she makes him laugh?
Maybe because she turns him on?
Maybe because she’s fun in bed?
Maybe because she listens and cares about him?
Maybe because she’s tough and/or smart and/or brave and/or wise and/or playful?
Maybe because she shares something with him that the wife doesn’t–like ethnicity, religion, political attitudes, interests?
Maybe because the relationship with the wife has been a downer for a while now?
Maybe because there really is something wrong with that wife (like her bewilderment and refusal to even consider there might have been something wrong with their marriage)?
The idea that a man who chooses to marry an older woman is either a gold digger or has some weird kink is–well, stereotypical, to say the least.
This 87 year old woman is a person, and, like almost any person, she has things that might attract another person. Without knowing the particulars, why speculate narrowly and crassly?
Dan,
Usually I can go along with you, but your response to EH revealed some distressing ageism and sexism.
Maybe because she’s his soulmate?
Maybe because she makes him laugh?
Maybe because she turns him on?
Maybe because she’s fun in bed?
Maybe because she listens and cares about him?
Maybe because she’s tough and/or smart and/or brave and/or wise and/or playful?
Maybe because she shares something with him that the wife doesn’t–like ethnicity, religion, political attitudes, interests?
Maybe because the relationship with the wife has been a downer for a while now?
Maybe because there really is something wrong with that wife (like her bewilderment and refusal to even consider there might have been something wrong with their marriage)?
The idea that a man who chooses to marry an older woman is either a gold digger or has some weird kink is–well, stereotypical, to say the least.
This 87 year old woman is a person, and, like almost any person, she has things that might attract another person. Without knowing the particulars, why speculate narrowly and crassly?