I’m a 20-year-old straight male, but this isn’t really about me.
I was recently back home for a family event while my younger brother, age 14, was away on a mission trip with his church. My iPad died while I was home and my mother told me to look in the kitchen drawers for a charger. I couldn’t find one there, so she told me to check my brother’s bedside table. I opened the drawer and, with a little digging, found a charger.
I also found a few pictures of gay porn and a couple of pictures of male celebrities with their shirts off that had been clipped from magazines. It isn’t the gay porn I have a problem with—I fully support him coming into his sexuality, whatever it might be—but then I found a few things that were a bit more disturbing: a picture of our father in his swim trunks, and another one of a fully naked man with a cutout photo of my father’s face glued over the original model’s face. Needless to say, I was freaked out. I put everything back where I had found it, including the charger, and haven’t said anything to him about it. Now I’m in a tough spot. I know that telling my brother I found the pictures would mortify him, and I feel like telling my father would be a complete dick move.
Concerned And Scared
I can appreciate why those pictures squicked you out—a family member lusting after a family member? Ughers—but I don’t understand exactly what it is you’re afraid of, CAS. While your brother appears to have an inappropriate and—fingers crossed—fleeting sexual obsession with your father, can you picture a scenario in which your brother’s desires, however devoutly wished, could be consummated?
Unless something much, much squickier is going on back home, your brother isn’t a danger to your father, CAS, nor is your father a danger to your brother. The only danger I can see is in the false choice you’ve laid out in your letter. Saying something to your brother will only poison your relationship with him; saying something to your father will certainly kill his relationship with his son. And destroying either relationship over what is most likely a temporary bonerstorm-of-puberty-induced obsession—an obsession that will soon be a distant and unpleasant memory for your brother—seems a bit extreme.
If those pictures weren’t in a place where your parents might also find them, CAS, I would advise you to stuff this one way down the ol’ memory hole. But there they are, in a place where Mom and Dad—BUT ESPECIALLY DAD—might find ’em. So you’re going to memorize this and say it your brother ASAP: “Hey, kiddo, Mom told me to look in your nightstand drawer for an iPad power cord. I found one—along with what looked like gay porn. I didn’t peruse your porn collection too closely because I wanted to respect your privacy. But you need to get that stuff out of the house before Mom or Dad finds it. It’s cool with me if you’re gay, and I love you and it makes no difference—but leaving porn around is not how you want to come out to Mom and Dad, okay?”
Then tell him that grown-ups don’t keep porn in their bedside tables anymore: The internet is for porn, and he can access all the porn he likes safely and discreetly on his iPad.
I would like to know why my husband is divorcing me to marry an 87-year-old woman.
Extremely Humiliated
Only your husband knows the real reason, EH, but if I were to hazard a couple of guesses: Either this woman is extremely wealthy or your husband is a gerontophile. Sadly, neither makes this situation any less humiliating for you. But try to look at the bright side: No one who hears what your husband has done—and no one who knows you both personally—is going to think there’s something wrong with you.
I am a 43-year-old mother of three, married for almost 20 years. Three years and one child in, my husband confessed that he had a penchant for being a BDSM sub. My reaction was, “Okay, I’ll try it, but if you want to explore that with pro doms, be my guest.” Which he did.
Fast-forward a dozen years. I’m going bonkers because my husband is impotent. And don’t tell me ED can be fixed, because in our case it couldn’t. And don’t tell me there are alternatives (oral, manual, toys), because all of those are just not the same for me. My body needs a fully functioning and capable man. So my husband gives me his “blessing” to take a lover. I didn’t even have to ask! I just needed to be miserable and depressed for a dozen years!
Now I have two lovers. One lives far away, and I see him a few times a year; the other is local. The problem is that they are both married to spouses who don’t know. Like me, neither of my lovers is interested in divorce. That’s the good news. The bad news is that I’m not happy with the integrity of these situations. I know that what I am doing is considered despicable by many people, despite the fact that I’m probably a marriage-saving device for both of these women. (Their husbands are happier, I’m not trying to steal their husbands, and I’m not a financial burden on either of them.) I would love to find someone in an honest open relationship, but this has so far eluded me. So I guess my question is: How do I set up a situation with more integrity when the world isn’t really ready for people like me?
Normal Soccer Mom From Afar
The answer NSMFA seeks is obvious—there are hard-up single men out there, married men in honest open relationships, men in the organized swinging movement, and she should go fuck some of them—but I’m including NSMFA’s problem in the column for all the smug monogamists sending me angry letters in the wake of Mark Oppenheimer’s recent feature about monogamy and its discontents in the New York Times Magazine (“Married, with Infidelities,” June 30, 2011). While regular readers of Savage Love know where I stand on monogamy—with the realists, monogamous or not—not many readers of the New York Times knew where I stood.
Anyway, smugsters, here’s what I think is interesting about NSMFA’s letter: Everyone involved is perceived to be in a monogamous relationship, by their friends, family members, neighbors, bosses, coworkers, elected representatives, etc.; two of the women involved—the duped wives of the men that NSMFA is seeing on the side—may actually believe themselves to be in monogamous relationships. But not one of these three couples—not one of these six “traditionally married” straight people—is actually in a monogamous relationship.
Just something to keep in mind, monogamists, before you hit “send” on your e-mail to me about your beautiful, deep, and meaningful monogamous relationship, about how your parents never cheated on each other, about how none of your married friends would ever cheat on their spouses, and about how people like me have no idea what real love means because we’re not in monogamous relationships, etc., etc., etc.
Because you just never know, do you?
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
Dan, can we just move on about the whole monogamy issue? Just be non-monogamous and shut it. It’s your preference, as is monogamy for other people. We don’t need a letter to try to persuade us that non-monogamy “saves marriages”. Give us a effin break.
Hahaha Suzy you are a MORAL stupid bitch! And a judgmental one at that. I hope its your husband that I have been fucking all these years. He is awesome!!! I have enjoyed him a LOT
CAS is fake, Dan! Come on!
Cut out of dad’s face on another body?! Really?!
Oh, and not to mention the predictable, (and yet outdated) porn in the bedside stand routine.
Boo!
108, what do you think motivates you to feel that way about other people who have done nothing to wrong you? If I remember correctly, you’re currently having sex with someone who is cheating on his wife, and you’re totally cool with that. Did this woman do something to you, to give you so little concern for her feelings or well being? If her husband wants to cheat on her, you can’t stop him, but you have the choice not to help him do it yourself.
And because I care about how the cheated-on spouse feels, you think it would be “awesome” if I were being cheated on by my husband? Seriously, something is wrong inside your head and heart. Check into that, maybe.
One thing Dan might have missed is that many young kids with daddy issues often get coerced into relationships with other daddy figures, such as teachers, scout masters or camp councilors. Hopefully, big brother will keep an eye on the kid and make sure he doesn’t get taken advantage of on one of his “missions.”.
It always takes two (or more) to tango and complain about being covered in pig s**t when you lie down with pigs. You be able wash off the filth, but the stench will probably stay with you for the rest of your.
Don’t you just love picturesque metaphors. 🙂 LMAO
forgot the don’t before complain
Okay, have to add, whether or not you think that she owes the other wives anything, most of the time, the other woman gets lied to, too. Maybe not in this case, but I agree, it’s ridiculous to blame the other women. Blame the CPOS you married. I mean, they start as soon as you meet them, it’s not like they tell you they have someone. I talked to a guy on a dating site a week ago and he was muting his cell phone during the very first call. What does that tell you? He *said* he was single, living with a housemate.
I don’t know what CPOS means. 🙁 I hate that everything is abbreviated these days! How’s this? ITYASFAEFWYS.
First person who guesses it gets a million dollars. 🙂
@116: CPOS= cheating piece of shit–Dan’s term for someone who DOESN’T inform the spouse or bf/gf or get consent to have extra-relationship sex.
I don’t have the time to try and figure out your certainly-awesome acronym.
a-muse @104, “The wife knows I make him happy in ways she cannot”
Has she expressed that thought to you? Maybe you should stop speaking for her. Would you like it if your younger brother preened and said “I make Mom happy in ways you can’t?”
re: #1. If Mom knows where to find the ipad charger then Mom could go into that drawer at any time…. The real object here, I think, i to prevent relationship damage in this family.
If it were me I would have two separate conversations with brother. 1- Can I borrow your charger and 2-” I see that you’re no longer a kid, and are now a man. Boy, i remember how embarrassed I was when Mom found my porm collection. I hope you’re smarter about hiding it than I was. “
There is nothing to be gained by letting him know what you saw.
I find it interesting no one has mentioned that in the first letter, the 14 yr. old brother was away on a mission with his church. Making the family either Mormon or evangelical Christians…Which made me think this letter is a fake. Because if the family are nut job Christians or Mormons the 29 yr. old would never DREAM of telling his father about the pictures…all hell would break loose. And I suspect the 29 yr. old would have mentioned his own evolution towards sexual free thinking…
@93: My apologies for a colloquial misuse of the word “you.” I didn’t mean you-you, just a hypothetical you.
I read somewhere that once-a-month-or-less meets the generally accepted clinical standard of “sexless.”
Your point about it being a mismatch rather than an absolute is well taken. I have to wonder, though: why don’t we ever hear about the cases where he wants it five times a day and she only wants it three? Maybe that’s because one end of that spectrum is largely a straw man, while the other end is a sadly all-too-common occurrence.
I may be wrong on this, but flirting aside aren’t men still the aggressors in most relationships. Consequently they bare a disproportionate share of the blame when they target women in committed relationships (and don’t tell it doesn’t happen)
@121 Once-a-month may feel sexless to the guy, but STDs don’t see it that way.
I find it funny the people here are so angry about people cheating on a spouse … but actually give advice about how to manipulate (sorry, communicate) spouses into letting them screw outside the marriage. I just find a lot of rationalization.
In my opinion, a nearly sexless marriage is anything less than 4 times a year. And sexless is just that, one year or more with no sex. And believe me, that is not unheard of nationwide. No wonder people are going nuts and getting bitchy! I’m all for any movement that gives people their rights and improves the institution along the way.
@122: I don’t think it happens much. I think men mainly go after single women, so in terms of going after someone who is married, there are a lot more women going after married men than there are men going after married women. My own limited personal experience bears this out – I don’t know any guys who have gone after married women, but I know lots of married men who have found themselves the object of attention of a single woman.
Bingo! @124 – thank goodness someone finally got there. Dan’s set of ethics (at least, as they are portrayed in his column) assumes that each person is a totally rational, completely assertive, equally “powerful” part of the couple (even in relationships that clearly have a dominant and a submissive, in the original meanings of those terms). I would like to hear what the legions of “sex positive” individuals have to say about “convincing” your partner to let you stray versus “manipulating” your partner to let you stray. What is permissible during the conversation? Can you issue ultimatums? Can you threaten to leave the family?
These are the issues in relationships that are really interesting, Dan’s vacuous and shallow analyses aside.
@127 The people in th relationship are the only ones who actually know their power dynamic, so asking Dan to try to assume who plays which role and how is actually counter productive when there’s so many other factors at play.
But let’s assume that there is a couple with very clear dominant and submissive roles. Do those roles eclipse the very fundamental need to respect and love your partner? Do they completely destroy any possible means of having a thoughtful, honest conversation? ‘Cause if so, than it probably wasn’t much of a relationship in the first place.
And anyways I don’t really get upset over manipulation. We all do it and most of the time its so obvious that they might as well write it across their foreheads. As to how serious any possible threats and ultimatums are, well that would have to be determined by the other partner since some people’s tempers run their mouths more than others. Though I assume most here would consider that a dick move.
@127 AR
“Can you issue ultimatums? Can you threaten to leave the family?”
Yes, there’s nothing stopping you from doing that. But what will that get you? Will the threatened partner be happy after relenting? Will you have a healthy marriage? Can you be happy if your spouse is profoundly unhappy?
The point of open marriage is not to get away with something. It’s to have a healthier, more fulfilling life. Why don’t you take a look at the many personal stories of successful open marriages to see what both of the participants get out of it?
People who fail at open marriage by using coercion to get it are no more an argument against that type of relationship than cheaters or abusers are against monogamy.
Slightly OT Dan. Just wanted to say that seeing you successfully throw Stephen Colbert completely out of character was simply priceless! “Uhhh… OH SH…!” It was truly magical!
@121
Absolutely it’s uncommon, maybe even non existent, but I was using it not as a strawman but to illustrate that sexuality is continuous. It’s easy to draw a line at “no sex”. But here we are already saying that (from you) “once a month or less” is sexless, while someone else is suggesting less than 4 times a year. (So once every three months) I once knew a girl who was in a relationship with a guy who she had gone almost a year without sleeping with. This was a young couple, like mid-early twenties, not married, no kids.
There’s no clear line of what’s “reasonable” to expect in terms of sex in a relationship and therefore no line to discern what’s “unreasonable” in terms of one partner expecting the other not to look outside the relationship.
I’m not saying Dan doesn’t make a compelling suggestion. I’m just arguing that in real life it’s usually not so clear cut.
Also: for the record, I’ve seen situations (not as extreme as the five time as a day) where the man was getting a fairly average amount of sex for his age bracket and parental status but still felt he was entitled to look outside the relationship. So you might be surprised.
In my personal case I can only hope that if I do get married it works like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM6w3_ljS… and I don’t have to worry about cheating.
I cannot believe this woman cannot find an open relationship lover that is compatible with her. Hasn’t she seen OKC? Women’s profiles are mobbed by available, interesting polyamorous/open marriaged men. She needs to take some responsibility to find a couple who meet her criteria–and meet them…and stop screwing men cheating on their wives…unless she likes being that kind of person.
@128 and 129 – I think you both are very close to saying that if there is no love and respect in the request, then it is not truly an “open marriage”, and that is “No True Scotsman” fallacy. You can have an open marriage where the power partner has basically bullied or outrageously manipulated the weaker partner into accepting the state of affairs. Now I realize that I am getting close to declaring those who accept open marriages as victims of false consciousness or Stockholm syndrome, but there is a much finer line to be walked than the anti-monogamists like to admit.
@ 124 — Try letting go of what you think of as “cheating”. It’s not cheating if everyone involved is okay with it. Now suddenly the debate makes sense: one gets angry with folks who cheat on their spouses…*therefore* if sleeping with someone other than your spouse is very important to you, try to arrange it so that no one feels hurt, used or betrayed. Simple, really.
I know, how about just not sleeping with anyone other than your spouse, right? Yes, the “keep it in your pants” argument is working so well for teens, Catholic priests and somewhere between twenty and sixty percent of the married population, depending where you get your stats.
AR@127 Hey – I’m the submissive in our relationship. And it’s my husband (the dom) who wanted to open our marriage. But he didn’t say: “Let me fuck other women or I’ll leave.”
He said (more or less), “I love you and I love fucking you, but I also want to fuck other women.” Our society says that I’m the one who’s supposed to issue an ultimatum at that point: “Stay monogamous or I’ll leave.” I didn’t want to leave. I want 100% of my husband’s non-work time, but it turned out I can’t have that. How much would I get if I walked? None. I’d rather have 90% of his non-work time, than none. Easy choice for me. Not my top choice, but I don’t own him.
If you don’t like your spouse much, then it’s easy to choose to leave if he or she screws up.
If you love your spouse but you can’t stand to think of them with someone else, then you say that. That’s when ultimatums are crucial — when it’s the honest truth about what you can and can’t bear.
mydriasis @131 – thanks for that video – the red latex dress at 2:45 is smoking!
Though it bugs me to hear the bs that if you treat your man right, he won’t stray. Some won’t, some will. A man can love his wife’s cooking better than anyone else’s; he might still want to go out to a restaurant from time to time.
I said committed relationships, not marriages, but I’ve seen the targeting of both in more than a few instances. Obviously we have had different experiences.
I know things have changed over time, but just how assertive are women in initiating courtship and/or seduction. Women flirt, but how many put the moves on men say in bars.
While there are some men who specifically target married women or those in committed relationships. It is much more common for those circumstances to be of no concern to the men. They don’t go out of there, but it doesn’t stop them either.
What people say is often completely different from what they really think or feel. Look at their eyes and body language when you talk about various things. Better yet, be intertwined with them. If they tense up you will have a much better indication about how uncomfortable they are about something or whether they may be cheating. It takes are really accomplished liar to no physical reaction at all.
@EricaP, after reading your comments for awhile now, and yes, I realize we’ve bumped heads slightly a few times, your adaptability to the situation you’re in is something to be commended. I am in a situation in which I am trying incredibly hard to find the strength to adapt if I’m not able to get my SO to see my side of things. I’m not really comfortable putting the entire situation on here… but I just wanted to say that. And… if you have any advice for dealing with a difficult situation so that you can reap the benefits later on… I’d appreciate it.
KateRose@138, if you like, feel free to email me privately at EricaPSavage@gmail. I’m chatty about my own life but I’m pretty good at keeping other people’s secrets.
@Erica
Semi-ironic music video aside… for someone who wants a monogamous relationship, that is the dream, though, isn’t it?
I think that people should have open relationships if they want, and I’m well aware that a lot of men can’t be monogamous (which is why I’m painstakingly selective about who I enter a relationship with) but for those men who can we want to believe that they don’t have regrets about choosing us to be their sole source for sex. (Excluding porn/maturbation/etc) Just like we hope that we’ll choose someone who we won’t regret being our only source.
But that’s me. I just want to be super clear about those two things though.
1. I’m not “against” open relationships, I just would never have one personally.
2. I’m not suggesting that one partner wanting an open relationship implies something negative about the other partner.
“I’m not suggesting that one partner wanting an open relationship implies something negative about the other partner.”
Good to hear – thanks!
@133 “I think you both are very close to saying that if there is no love and respect in the request, then it is not truly an “open marriage”, and that is “No True Scotsman” fallacy.”
I’m saying that any position you talk about with your partner should be discussed in a manner that’s loving and respectful. Whether it’s kids, In-Laws, finances or etc. A relationship should have understanding and compromise. And yeah, it’s not an “open marriage” without that, it’s a marital hostage situation.
“You can have an open marriage where the power partner has basically bullied or outrageously manipulated the weaker partner into accepting the state of affairs.”
Then the weaker partner has much bigger issues than the fact that their SO is fooling around, because from that discription they’re married to a controlling, emotionally abusive asshole and should really be rethinking their commitment to that person entirely.
“I want 100% of my husband’s non-work time, but it turned out I can’t have that. How much would I get if I walked? None. I’d rather have 90% of his non-work time, than none. Easy choice for me. Not my top choice, but I don’t own him.”
What if you had said “no” and stayed in the relationship? Would he just be “kinda bummed”, “totally dissatisfied but willing to stick it out”, or would he have left? When you say “it turned out I can’t have that”, what do you mean, “can’t”? Why can’t you?
“Because you never know, do you?”
Brilliant DS, absolutely brilliant!
@143 – I don’t have him under lock and key. How do you enforce a no? He was telling me what he was going to do. I could stick around, or I could leave.
It’s hard not to speculate on Dan’s dependably rabid defensiveness whenever the “smugsters” tell him about how great monogamy can be…
@93, 127, 131:
There’s no objective standard for how much sex is “reasonable” in a relationship. If someone thinks four times a day is not enough, they have every right to say that the relationship is not working for them, and they need things to change, or else they don’t want to stay in the relationship. Ending the relationship is always an option, as messy and painful as it may be.
As far as cheating goes, it’s never “justified,” but it may be the best of bad options. The measure here is not the frequency of sex, but how satisfied the people are, and how much of a problem it would be to just be honest and end the relationship. If a person is very unsatisfied with sex less than five times a day, and can’t or won’t handle it, then it’s “unreasonable” for their partner to expect them to stay faithful or stay in the relationship when they have less sex.
The standard depends on the person in question. There’s no one-size-fits-all rule like “sex less than once a month is unreasonable and grounds for cheating or breaking up.”
This is for concerned and scared. I’m a 37 year old out gay guy and I didn’t have sex with a guy til I was 24 and didn’t come out til I was 26. I was extraordinarily closeted in middle school / high school, and reading your letter made me remember having dreams, in middle school, of seeing my dad in a more sexual manner- never was full on sex or anything. This definitely passed and there’s never been anything remotely inappropriate about our relationship and I am very happy w guys my age and build (so no lingering daddy fetish). point being, I think the reason my dad appeared in some of these early gay dreams was that he was an accessible man in my life– now I didn’t go as far as your brother (magazine pics, etc.), but I’d say Dan’s advice is spot on— unless you observe something ominous going on between your dad and your brother, but I doubt that’s the case from what you’ve written. So I would suggest you do exactly as Dan suggests, and I’m sure your brother will turn out to be a perfectly ‘normal’, healthy gay guy, and very lucky as well to have you as his understanding big brother
@148 BlackRose
You’ll find lots of people to agree that there is a *right* to feel deprived. The problem is that being deprived leads to harm that isn’t recognized except in a sort of informal way (oh, too bad!). It’s not viewed clinically despite it literally driving people nuts. You’ll know it’s taken seriously when it merits a diagnosis from a doctor.
Here’s a short tip for women:
Your husband likely doesn’t want love outside your marriage. He wants sex outside your marriage. The last person you leave is the wife who is happy to let you have some sex outside your marriage.
Ms Erica @118 – Well stated!
Mr J @129 – [Yes, there’s nothing stopping you from doing that. But what will that get you? Will the threatened partner be happy after relenting? Will you have a healthy marriage? Can you be happy if your spouse is profoundly unhappy?]
It’s quite possible that in most of the marriages I’ve seen happiness is a zero-sum commodity. Possibly not healthy, but the only sort of marriage the participants would be able to manage. Transplant one into a healthy marriage and it would be ruined in less than a year. Very Strindberg, I think.
#135 EricaP
How many years into the marriage was it when your husband wanted the other woman (women)? Did you negotiate how much freedom he could have? Was it part of the deal that you could have others, too? Is he open about how often he is with the others?
@CAS, hmm Ma knew that your bro’s charger would be in the bedside table? I’d bet she knows what else is in there too. But I’d stay silent with her at all costs, even if she hints at it.
Dan, your advice was great. Assuming that the letter is real (reads that way to me), and that Dad’s as straight an arrow as the letter writer, then talking to either of them about the details would be a disaster on wheels.
One exception would be if your little bro brought it up himself, or if you find out that mom or dad has made it an issue with him. In that case, your role would be to say something like, “I’m straight, but without going into the specifics I can tell you that I had some pretty wild sexual obsessions when I was 14. The only difference is no one ever found out about ’em.”
But you only uncork that line is you have to. Otherwise, mum’s the word other than advising him to do a better job hiding the porn. If he asks what you saw, say something, “It looked like pictures of guys, but once I figured out it was porn I really didn’t spend much time with it.”
Let him take the lead. Say as little as possible, but if he wants to talk don’t be squeamish. He already feels like enough of a perv.
@151: Exactly! I think of it like multi-level marketing.. if someone lets you have sex with others, or helps you find sex with others, the sex with others gets credited to them as well.
@150: Did you mean that for me? My point was that everyone will feel uncomfortable, unhappy, or deprived at different points and in different circumstances, so there’s no universal standard for how bad things get before you’re deprived.
@153 – 14 years married. Not really a negotiation, though when I had a panic attack because he called to let me know that a stripper said yes to coming back to his hotel room, he canceled her visit. That helped us figure out that I like a lot of warning and advance discussion.
Not only “can” I have others, he reminds me to go out and sleep with other guys if it has been a while. He wants all the details. We both like to talk about our outside sex in bed — it’s really hot.
The big deal this summer is that now he has a girlfriend too. So, @151 – I hope you’re right, but there are no guarantees.
didn’t read the trash piece, I just came to say it was a little disturbing to see you unable to make eye contact with Mark Cuban…standard new gen punk, sad, grow up.