When I was 14, my parents informed me that I had a half brother. He was my father’s son by another woman. My parents were already married when my brother was born, but I hadn’t come along yet. It was a huge scandal when it happened. My half brother came to live with us after his mother died. He was 16. My half brother got me pregnant. He didn’t rape me; I wanted to have sex with him. Everyone in the family found out—huge scandal number two—and it took me years to get over it and stop blaming myself.

Now I’m 26 and engaged. What do I tell my fiancé? My parents wound up divorcing—my mother called the police on my half brother and tried to physically prevent me from getting an abortion—and I don’t speak to her anymore. But my father and brother are still in my life.

I get panic attacks when I think about having to tell my fiancé about any of this, Dan, because I don’t want him to see me as sick. But if I don’t tell him, he’ll hear about it from someone else. What do I do?

The Sister Act

“This could happen to anyone,” says Debra Lieberman, assistant professor of psychology at the University of Miami.

A quick clarification: Lieberman means this could happen to anyone who meets a sibling under similar circumstances.

Coresidence throughout childhood—particularly early childhood—creates sexual aversion in adulthood, explains Lieberman, who has studied “sibling incest avoidance” extensively. It’s a phenomenon called the “Westermarck effect,” and it doesn’t just affect biological siblings; adults who grew up in the same home experience the same feelings of sexual revulsion.

“TSA and her half brother were not raised throughout childhood together and neither observed his or her mother caring for the other as an infant,” explains Lieberman. “These are the two cues that have been shown to lead to the categorization of another as a sibling. When these cues are present, strong sexual aversions tend to develop. Without these cues, no natural sexual aversion will develop.”

(What this means, of course, is that everybody who read TSA’s letter and thought, “What a sicko! I would never fuck any of my siblings!” needs to back the fuck off. If your parents had surprised you with a long-lost sibling when you were 14, dear readers, you, too, could be facing an extremely awkward conversation with your fiancé. There but for the grace of God, etc.)

So what, if anything, should you tell the man you’re about to marry, TSA?

“If it were me,” says Lieberman, “I would probably say something. I would explain the situation and the science. Unfortunately, this might gross out her fiancé, especially if he has sisters. But living with this stress”—the fear that he’ll find out at some point—”does not seem like a happy life.”

I agree with Lieberman: Tell your fiancé what happened, TSA. Emphasize that you were young, confused, and Westermarck-effect-deprived. You can also refer him to Lieberman’s website—www.debralieberman
.com—where he can peruse the research.

Good luck, TSA.

I’m a 23-year-old female in a monogamish relationship—thank you for that word!—with my wonderful boyfriend of two years. I moved away last year to attend graduate school, and we agreed it was okay to sleep with other people while we’re apart. The last person I slept with was an acquaintance who knew both of us and understood what the deal was with our relationship. My question is, if I’m just looking for casual sex or a one-night stand, should I make it clear that we’re just going to have sex and I’m not interested in dating? How much should I tell the person I’m trying to pick up about a significant other they won’t ever meet?

Full Disclosure Necessary, Yathink?

If you meet a guy in a bar, exchange four words with him (and two of them are “Open up!” right before he spits a Jäger shot into your mouth), and you wind up back at your place, FDNY, the person you’re about to fuck can reasonably make two assumptions: (1) you’re a slut (in the sex-positive, reclaiming-that-word, sisterhood-is-powerful, drink-Jäger-out-of-a-hot-guy’s-mouth sense of the term), and (2) he’s unlikely to see you again. Under circumstances like these, FDNY, you are not obligated to disclose your relationship status. The only things you’re obligated to disclose are the precise kind of clitoral stimulation you require and the exact time you’ll need him out of your apartment…

But if a nice boy asks you out on something that your parents and steampunks call a “date,” and he explains that you’re really, really special, and he refrains from spitting Jäger shots into your mouth, you are obligated to disclose your relationship status to him, lest he make the entirely reasonable assumption that you’re single and interested in him, too.

I am in love with an intelligent woman. She is exactly what I’ve always wanted: smart, articulate, independent, and friggin’ beautiful. The thing is, we fight constantly. Everything is going well, and then I say the wrong thing or use the wrong tone, and she blows up. In these fights, I am required to remain calm, but she can yell, scream, mock, or ridicule. These fights sometimes end in physical confrontations that she instigates. The therapist we’re seeing takes my side, but still nothing gets better. Her feelings are the only ones that matter. I’m afraid to read the advice you’re going to give me.

Confused, Pissed, and Sad

You don’t mention your own looks, CPAS, but I’m guessing there’s a big looks gap in this relationship, i.e., your girlfriend is objectively hot, while you fall somewhere between “Ron Jeremy” and “unconventionally attractive” on the male beauty spectrum. And that’s not an accident: She knows that you think you’re unlikely to do better than her, looks-wise, and that allows her to be just as psycho as she wants to be. Because she knows you’re not going anywhere.

Here’s the advice you were afraid of, CPAS: Go somewhere, anywhere, that she isn’t. You wouldn’t be putting up with this shit if this woman’s outsides were as ugly as her insides.

DTMFA.

What happened to your column? I remember back when your columns involved wonderful details about things like proper dildo protocol, indulging odd fetishes, and funny sex adventures. Now it’s all about the philosophy of what loving relationships should truly entail. I miss the old Dan who would coach readers on how to put large things inside themselves and recount funny/titillating anecdotes.

Where’s My Dirt?

Google happened to my column.

Back in the getting-large-things-inside-my-readers days, WMD, people would write me and ask, “How do I get this large thing inside of me?” Now people with large things can turn to Google for information about how to get their large things inside themselves. Another question I used to get all the time: “What’s a cock ring?” Now cock rings have their own Wiki page.

There’s just so much good, basic info about sex online—including basic how-to info—that people don’t have to ask me for basic information about fetishes or kinks or dildo protocols anymore. So most of the questions I get nowadays, and most of the ones I answer, are about relationships. Don’t blame me, WMD, blame Google’s algorithms.

It has been a long time since I filled a column or two with titillating sex anecdotes. I’m on vacation right now, so… wow me with your best/kinkiest/craziest vacation-sex stories, dear readers, and I’ll fill next week’s column with ’em.

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.

mail@savagelove.net

197 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. @147 Interesting response, so unlike the attitudes usually posted here towards rape victims. From your post I’m guessing the mother got raped maybe forty years ago. The victim got bansihed from the family, what about the abusers. How much help, sympathy, and support did the mother get or was she just blamed and ostracized for the scandal. You appear to consider over reaction by a child victim who was brutally and violently (gang?)raped by relatives to be extreme. In most instances, even with extensive long term therapy, the victim is permanently damaged. I take it that you were one of the step children involved, which would explain your hostility towards both mothers. You are jumping to a whole lot derogatory and speculative conclusions about behavior, motives, personality based on absolutely no supporting information. Not that you are necessarily wrong. but I think you are guilty of projection.

    I used the example of the drunken friend or family member at a family gathering because that was how the younger generations in my family found about such things. So much for honest, open communication. It set us such wonderful examples of what being normal, responsible adults was all about.

    Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the only true victim in your family was the mother. Your response sounds a lot like that of a guilty, self absorbed teenager who still has a lot of growing up to do. You really need to educate yourself on post traumatic stress disorder. As bad as your experiences were they don’t even come close to the horrific experiences of the mother in your family. You complain about people being judgmental and not understanding your situation, but you display the same things towards your step mother.

  2. @147,@160,

    Shame and guilt are disabling experiences. They are also very powerful weapons. Weapons that play leading roles in the classic family games of “Blame The Victim (Shame The Victin)” and “Do What You’re Told”. Oh yeah, and “Keep It A Secret (Don’t Dishonor Our Family)”. Of course these games are also used within other games: KIAS with the combined DWYT/BTV defense strategy (the best defense is a good offense); this is my presumption for the game that was played in wendykh’s family. Our family was a pretty straight DWYT with the “It Never Happened” offense (You have to sleep in the same room with blind drunk “Uncle Ernie” because nothing ever happened to him to make him this way). Actually “Ernie” was a step uncle, and it was my step mother that forced the issue despite my pleading to sleep with my sibs, so for my family as a whole it wasn’t that bad (just for me).

    Wendykh, I find talking about what happened, initially in the safety of Therapy and later with your loved ones, absolutely essential to overcoming the damage. In fact I have to thank you for forcing me to confront my experiences outside of my victim perspective. You aren’t alone, you and your family are not the only ones to have experienced shameful tragedy, and most importantly it’s not your fault that you are a victim. If you can’t be open about your whole life with your SO, then I suggest your therapy needs aren’t over.

    Peace.

  3. @154 It’s called statutory rape, it happens all the time, and it gets the perpetrator put on a sexual offender list. In fact, getting a daughter pregnant makes the latter more likely.

  5. Furthermore, it wasn’t just incest, it was incest with her husband’s adulterous bastard. Is anyone really surprised that the mom went ballistic.

  6. Suzy:

    I don’t assign blame for TSA having sex at 14. I too think that 14 is to young and I think it would be better for children to wait until they are older.

    But I do think that a 14 year old girl sleeping with her 16 year old half brother is wrong. It’s incest. For me there is no grey area on this aspect of the scenario. They were both wrong to do this.

    BTW, I never said this was the type of mistake we all make. And I disgree with Debra Lieberman saying “this could happen to anyone”. Crashing your car, drinking and driving, getting in a fight, cheating on a lover, getting drunk at a party and making a fool of yourself, etc can happen to anyone. I would never put sleeping with a family member in this category (ie could happen to anyone). What I did say (or at least try to say), is that we all make mistakes, that we need to own up to them, accept them and pick ourselves back up and move on from them. No matter how big or small. Whether it’s crashing a car, and yes, even sleeping with your sibling. In short, taking personal responsibility for our actions.

    As for the shame. I am sure she felt ashamed after the fact. And it appears she still does because she gets panic attacks when she thinks about telling her fiance about it. Once she truely accepts it and owns it, she should no longer feel shame about it. This is not to say that she should not be sorry it happened (ie or regret having done it). I think all of us here on this board have done things that we were ashamed about, but then we put it behind us and were able to say “damn that’s something I regret having done”. We are not proud of it, we accept it, but we no longer feel ashamed about it.

  7. BeenThereDoneThat

    Depending on where TSA lived it was not statutory rape. While each state has different limatations on this, most accept that if both are minors and the difference in age is less than 2 to 3 years (depending on state), and the younger one has reached a minimum age (14 is pretty typical, althought there are some with lower, even down to 10), then it’s not statutory rape.

    In New York and California it is statutory rape as both parties must be at least 18. Which, while I do not think it is wise to be having sex at 14, 15, 16…I think it is stupid for these states to have laws making it illegal for say two 16 years olds or two 17 years having sex.

  8. TSA doesn’t say how old she was when she got pregnant or how long after the boy moved in before they started having sex. I doubt very much that the mother considered him a step son, which infers a form of commitment not in evidence. Nor does TSA say when her mother found about the affair or her husband’s son or how long they were married before he had the affair(s?) The ex-husband must be one real piece of work. The mother got dumped on by her cheating husband and her darling daughter. The daughter may have been too young to make an appropriate decision, but the boy wasn’t. TSA says that she was informed at 14 that she had a half brother, but not how old she was when he moved in with them. Was his mother dying or had she already died. Presumably his mother had parents or other living relatives (most people do) with whom he should have had long standing relationships. TSA doesn’t explain why the boy moved in with them.

  10. @170 porn is fantasy. Are you suggesting that people who have rape fantasies or people who are into BDSM are in favor of actual rape or violence towards women. Although I guess actual pedophiles don’t understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

    @171 this was not puppy love (ok, may be the daughter developed a crush, but for a 16 year old boy it is more likely to be a case of taking advantage of an opportunity) I doubt if he even considered her, a relative stranger at that time, to actually be his sister. That doesn’t happen over night as most members of any blended family will tell you, there is more likely to be resentment rather affection at the beginning. So some lenth of time passed before they started, if only long enough for the mother to let down her guard. I think TSA was more likely to be 15 or 16 and the boy 17, 18, or even maybe 19. TSA doesn’t say whether this was her first sexual encounter or his. Somehow I kind of doubt it, particularly for the boy

  11. Re comment number 2: Using Welsh pronunciation, “slyt” would indeed be pronounced slut. But I think slwt looks better on the page. It would sound more like “sloot” and that helps differentiate it when you’re speaking, too. Let’s have slwtwalks, not slutwalks.

  12. FatherLeeds, I agree with you that it’s wrong for half-siblings of 14 and 16 to have sex. But if you’re not blaming the 14 year old personally for having made a deliberate decision to do this, then what’s the point of insisting that it’s wrong? I don’t think 14 year olds are capable of grasping the full implications of consenting to have sex with someone–obviously 14 year old TSA didn’t, either, because then she experienced the ugly fallout of what may initially have seemed like a good thing.

    Your comment that “we all make mistakes” did imply that this was the sort of thing that might happen to anyone. And indeed, it would be more likely to happen to me than your example of drinking and driving would, since I know the odds that I’m going to kill someone else or myself after making that decision–one where any 16-or-older driver is fully cognizant of the implications.

    In short, I don’t understand your complaints about TSA–her values, her current relationship prospects, and so on. What makes you think she did not “take responsibility” for what she did? She had an abortion and has suffered through the condemnation of her family and others who found out about her actions. Most people who have incestuous affairs never even go through that. She has a difficult conversation to have with her fiance, and you and I agree she is obligated to tell him. Failure to do so would be irresponsible, yes, since it’s unfair to leave him in the dark while the rest of the family knows something so significant in her history.

  13. Re TSA,
    I can understand why some are talking about statutory rape, what with her being 14, and the half-bro being 16. However, in her letter, she clearly stated “He didn’t rape me; I wanted to have sex with him”. Judge as you feel you must, but please, stop throwing the word “rape” around.

  14. 173, cockyballsup, I totally agree with you. There’s no reason to assume that either the 14 or 16 year old was the more active or responsible agent in that situation. I’ve certainly seen 14 year old girls who were taken advantage of cruelly by 16 year old boys who knew darn well what they were doing, and I’ve also seen 14 year old girls who by far had the advantage over more innocent or vulnerable 16 year old boys. That’s usually why statutory rape laws require a larger age gap between the parties.

    And the half-sibling sex is not shocking to me, as you say, any more than cousins having sexual encounters is shocking. I’m sure it happens all the time. Heck, there was a time in the not-terribly-distant past when a cousin would have made for a likely marriage prospect, keeping the money in the family and all.

  15. RE statutory rape,

    The law deems minors incompetent to judge whether sex is consensual. (And, in my opinion, in this case that supposition was proved correct.)

    Depending upon the state, a 16 year old is considered capable of understanding their own consent, and the consent of the partner(s) when engaging in sexual acts. So in the eyes of the law, a crime was committed, and the crime was rape. The two are fortunate to not have been in a country where penalties exist for incest.

    Peace.

  16. CPAS,

    You could end up in jail or prison, because your girlfriend was yelling at YOU. That means it is usually the male who gets arrested.

    The “Domestic Violence” laws include yelling. If the neighbors hear the yelling and call the cops, guess who goes to jail…?

    Dan’s advice is correct, you need to “DTBA” or Dump This Bitch Already.

  18. @2, 50, 174, 180 I’m impressed with the multilingual suggestions, but isn’t the point to own the word itself? Would activism by queers & dykes feel the same if they called themselves “kweers” and “dikes”?

  19. So to all the people going “Looks have nothing to do with being abused WAAAH”, I am pretty sure that is not what Mr. Savage was getting at. Obviously, good looking people can be abused, however, the abuse in this case is quite different. I agree that it probably is that this girl ought to be way out of this guy’s league. I’ve been in the same boat. An ex-girlfriend of mine – who is smart, independent, and attractive – seeks out loser nerd types such as myself because she knows she can walk all over them and they won’t break up with her and they’ll pay for basically everything and even carry things for her. And yeah, she yelled at me for everything, including not properly appreciating her piano playing. I’m not the only person she has done this to, either. She just got to be in control of the relationship because if anyone of us complains, she’ll just dump us and move on to a new guy who’ll do everything for her, while we find it significantly more difficult to get a smart, independent, attractive woman. Trust me.

  20. CPAS-The (admittedly untutored) diagnoses here of Borderline Personality Disorder for your soon-to-be-ex sound spot-on to me too, having lived in a terrible situation with a BPD spouse for years.

    She is broken inside, maybe irreparably. It’s not your job to fix her even if you could. Staying will only hurt you more, and worse. Get out ASAP and go far away. Cut this cancer out of your life forever and WORK ON REBUILDING YOUR SELF-ESTEEM. You probably don’t sense it yet but you’ve suffered a lot of damage as a result of your time with this person. Now is the time to remind yourself of all the reasons you’re great, and believe it.

    Good luck, man. I feel for you.

  21. I find something absurd about all the people saying “hey half siblings getting it on is not shocking – it’s only as shocking as cousins hooking up!”

    Cousins getting together isn’t a squick overload? Since when?

    I mean it’s objectively/genetically sort of whatever. But emotionally? Uggghhhh *shudder*.

    I met a group of my cousins when I was 18. One of them apparently experienced this lack-of-Westermark upon meeting me. I was lucky enough to not feel the same way. I feel sorry for people who fall through those inbreeding-protection loopholes and find themselves attracted to people who they shouldn’t.

  22. Married in MA:
    I would like to clarify a few things regarding your post saying that it was rape (ie statutory).

    Many states (in fact more than half the states) have what’s called a “close in age exception”. In some states with this exception it is still a crime, but it makes the crime a misdemeanor, not a felony. In other states it makes it totally legal for minors to engage in sex as long as gap between their ages is not more a certain number of years. This gap can be as low as 2 years and as much as 5 years. Here in NJ the gap is 4 years. As such, if TSA lived in NJ then what happened between TSA and her brother did would not be rape. Minor note, most states also include a minimum age with the “close in age exception”. That is, the younger party has to be at least a certain age for the exception to apply. Here in NJ the minimum age is 13 (way to young if you ask me). So a 17 year can sleep with a 13 year as long as the 17 year old is less than 4 years older. So if the younger party is 13 years and 4 months, the older party can be 17 years and 3 months.

    Personally, why I do not think it is wise for children at this age to be having sex, it’s going to happen so I think it makes total sense for the laws to account for this. Why? Because hell hath no fury like a lover scorned. Without this law, all the jilted lover has to do is say they had sex with the other party. They don’t have to claim it was forced, they just have to admit they had sex with the other party. Or worse, as in the case with TSA, one of the parents finds out that you were having sex with your older boyfriend/girlfriend, they can go to the police to file a complaint. In either case, the police have to investigate. In the case of TSA, I am inclined to think that they lived in one of the states that has the “close in age exception” because it seems like they could have easily proved that they slept together (she was pregnant).

    Key point is that each state is different and it would be wise to check the laws for your state before jumping to the conclusion that it is statutory rape for a child under 18 to have sex. It would also be wise for parents of teenage kids to check them to make sure they know what their kids can and can’t do legally.

    PS and interesting read about a man that landed on the sex offenders list for sleeping with his wife. -> http://www.woai.com/content/news/newslin…

  23. Suzy:

    I think we will have to agree to disagree with regards to me saying “that we all make mistakes” implying that “it can happen to anyone”.

    Everyone makes mistakes as there are no perfect people. So yes, mistakes can happen to anyone. But I think when we start talking about the “types of mistakes” that we can filter down the list from “happening to anyone”. For me I think my thought process is tied to the fact that when we say “it can happen to anyone” we are usually doing it to 1) make a person feel better about something they did because it happens to a lot of people. Or 2) we say it to someone that was the “victim” of something that happened to them that was outside their control, like being mugged, getting fired / laid off, etc. But TSA and her brother are not victims in this situation, and as such I will stick to the first usage (ie make someone feel better about something they did). I don’t ever see myself saying something like this to a murderer, a child molestor, etc. I am not saying that what transpired between TSA and her half-brother is anything like these two crimes I just mentioned, just trying to make a point on the types of things that I would never tell the wrong doer that “it could happen to anyone”. Right or wrong, I guess for me there is no grey area when it comes to incest. Maybe it’s my religious upbringing that has me not seeing grey areas with regards to incest. While I can totally understand how any normal teenager gives into their emotions and sexual urges and sleeps with someone, guess I just can’t understand how those feelings where so strong that they could ignore the fact that it was their sibling, that it was incest. And as such, I am not one who thinks sleeping with a sibling “could happen to anyone”.

  24. Quibbling

    I doubt if the age exemption for statutory rape applies to incest, since incest is still a crime in all States

  25. truth? and it’s consequences

    I don’t view it as quibbling……AS with statutory rape….laws for incest are different in each state. In some states they only target / penalize parental figures for sleeping with their underage childrem, in some states if both parties are over 18 there is no penalty (ie crime), so a son/daughter 18 or older can sleep with their biological parent with out any repercussions as far as the law is concerned. Of course the recent news last year about the Columbia professor having a 3 year affair with his daughter was interting in that even though the daughter was over 18, and consented, unlike her father she did not get charged with a crime.

    Anyway, there is right and wrong, then there are the laws, and then there is how the prosecutors choose to apply them. So I don’t think it’s quibbling because it varies so much between each state / jurisdiction.

  27. I agree with both you (gayBoiNYC) and Dan that he should dump the mean woman. However I believe Dan pointed it out because he probably thinks it’s the reason WHY he’s putting up with the crap from her. Having been on both ends of this equation I agree with that assessment.

  28. #37 and #185 are spot on about CPAS’s situation.

    I have been there myself and thanks to Dan’s advice, I was able to DTMFA. I have a long way to go before life will be somewhat normal again, but I am grateful for the courage I got from SLOG to go through with what would have been unthinkable after a 20 year relationship, even if it was filled with torture. Heed the message, CPAS, you are worth it.

  30. CPAS – seriously. DTMFBA (Dump the MF b*ch already). Don’t waste a decade of your life like I did. I’ll post my lawyer’s contact if you need it. It gets better – really.

    You’ll find women who value you for who you are rather than finding a scratching post for the fire-ants in their brains based on what you’re not. You’ll find women who want to get naked and tactical with you just because they dig you. You’ll find a proud face in the mirror and never go back.

    S

  31. “Cousins getting together isn’t a squick overload? Since when?”

    It doesn’t disturb me all that much, really. Marriage to cousins was quite common in the past, and is still fairly common in some parts of the world, like the middle east. I think the U.S. and Korea are two places that specially frown on cousin marriages, so maybe that’s why it seems like more of a “squick” factor here.

  32. @186: It may be a squick overload for you, and make you emotionally shudder, but that’s not universal. It doesn’t bother me at all. And just because it squicks you doesn’t mean that cousins shouldn’t be attracted to each other or hook up. There’s nothing wrong with it and there is no reason to feel sorry for people who experience that. That’s like someone being squicked by gay sex and saying they feel sorry for gay people.

    By the way, the Westermarck effect only applies to people you grew up in the same household with as a young child. Which in many cases does not include cousins.

  33. Wow… I feel like both of you read the first thing I wrote and not the rest of it.

    The fact that in America (and many other western, English speaking countries.. ie. the readership of this column) it is considered “gross” is exactly my point.

    I was pointing out that it was weird for someone to use it as a metric for normalcy/acceptace when really, it’s IS pretty frowned upon (whether or not it’s taboo status is valid is up for debate and I actually argued myself that it WASN’T valid)

    I must have been really unclear so…

    1. I didn’t argue that cousins shouldn’t be attracted to eachother, or not hook up.

    2. I didn’t say anything was wrong with it, I said that it personally grossed me out. Not unlike how scat grosses some people out.

    3. I’m aware of how Westermark works, the example I gave was an absence of it… so… yeah.

    Finally… I think it’s actually pretty ludicrous to compare homophobia with a fairly common revulsion towards the thought of fucking one’s cousin. Not really fair at all. If someone lives in a culture that’s okay with it, then I wouldn’t feel bad for them, but where I live? (Large, North American city) I imagine attraction to one’s cousin would bring up a lot of unpleasant shame/guilt stuff, and stigma if it was followed through on and etc. And I would feel bad that the mechanisms that prevent that kind of attraction didn’t kick in or weren’t triggered for WHATEVER resaon, because it would’ve saved them a lot of trouble.

  34. @202: I think you’re wrong when you state that cousin relationships are “considered gross,” “frowned upon,” and “a fairly common revulsion” in the US. I think you’re confusing your own squick with common opinion.

    And again, I don’t see how this is different than homophobia, or why it’s ludicrous to compare cousin marriage to someone who lived in a very homophobic area and grew up with a lot of shame and guilt around being gay.

    You wrote: I feel sorry for people who fall through those inbreeding-protection loopholes and find themselves attracted to people who they shouldn’t. I misread that and thought you were referring to cousins. I realize now that you meant you think brothers and sisters shouldn’t be attracted.

    I apologize for misreading, though I still don’t agree that people “shouldn’t” be attracted to siblings. They usually aren’t, and there are slightly increased genetic risks for any offspring they might have in some cases, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be attracted. There’s nothing objectively wrong with the attraction or having sex with a sibling. You could argue having kids might be wrong because of the genetic risks, though that’s true for a lot of unrelated couples as well (if both people have mental illness in their family, for instance).

    Also, I don’t know what you mean about the mechanisms that prevent cousin attraction. As far as I know there aren’t any such mechanisms.

  35. Man. I say one thing and everyone seems to hear another… so it’s probably my bad.

    Okay, I used the word “shouldn’t” but I thought in the context of my post (which started off with what I thought was a clear statement that there’s nothing ethically wrong with it) it would be clear that I meant it was a cultural “shouldn’t” not a moral “shouldn’t”.

    I guess it wasn’t.

    So I’m going to try my first post again and hopefully it will be clearer.

    1. I expressed surprise that people were using cousin hookups as a standard of normal, non-taboo sexuality.

    Here are some cultural examples of cousin-mating being considered taboo/unnatural/gross/frowned-upon in popular/mainstream/western/modern culture:

    -using “cousin fucking” as shorthand for hillbilly
    -People making fun of royalty for being inbred.
    – Ever watch Arrested Development? There was a huge, lengthy plotline centering around George Micheal’s attraction to Maebe and emphasising how taboo it is.
    – a few weeks ago on the Daily Show, look up the clip with the disapproving man!

    those are the first few that came to mind. I’m certain there’s more. In my personal experience, I only told a few select people about my cousin – all of them were HUGELY shocked and mortified. I did not respond that way to him. I was largely indifferent to the fact that he wanted to sleep with me. BUT if you asked me to envision having sex with a relative? I’d probably throw up in my mouth a little. Anyway, him and I are buds now.

    2. I pointed out that it was not actually morally wrong, and that genetics suggest it’s not even wrong in the context of having children. And then mentioned, (I thought as an aside) that I personally found it really gross on a visceral level.

    3. I then told a personal story where I had a first cousin express attraction towards me.

    4. I said I felt sorry for people who slipoped through those loopholes. For example, adopted children who go on to have sexual relationships with their birth parents. I feel sorry for lots of circumstances – that doesn’t mean I think that person is “wrong” in some way. I feel bad if someone gets murdered or attacked for being gay. I feel bad for someone who ends up feeling attracted to someone because of circumstance and is perceived negatively for it.
    Oh well.

  37. @just noticing

    oftentimes Dan gets more info in his emails than he shows in the versions he presents to us. The fact that he says “you fall somewhere between “Ron Jeremy” and “unconventionally attractive” on the male beauty spectrum.” suggests that he had some reason to believe the mailer was… male. 🙂

    Cheers

  38. @205: Thanks for explaining and clearing up my confusion. That makes sense now.

    I understand what you mean about feeling sorry for the circumstances. I feel upset that there are idiots who stigmatize consensual incest, as well as idiots who stigmatize being LGBT. But I don’t feel bad that people have attractions to close relatives, any more than I feel bad for people for being gay. And I don’t think of it as a ‘loophole,’ because that view presupposes that there’s some sort of law or obstacle preventing genetic attraction that a few people can escape somehow. Hope you can understand my point of view.

    You may be right that there are stereotypes about cousin sex in pop culture, unfortunately.

  39. @Blackrose.

    I agree that the attraction we have for someone is outside our control, whether it’s a brother, sister, cousin, parent, another person of the same sex, farm animal :-), inanimate object, etc, and that laws can not prevent who/what we are attracted to. Where my opinion differs from yours is how we choose to act on our attractions. Obviosuly for me, consensual incest is something that I find offensive/taboo, and yes, even disguisting. And yes, I think to act on this attraction is wrong, both morally and depending on the circumstance, legally. Again, I don’t think the fact that someone has this attaction is wrong. But what we feel and how we act on our feelings are two different things.

  40. @209: Agreed we can’t control our attractions, but we can control what we do about them. And we have a duty to act in ethical ways. But that doesn’t mean acting in ways that people don’t find disgusting.

    My problem is when people confuse what they find disgusting with what is actually morally wrong. Everyone’s got things that appeal to them or disgust them. But if you actually look at consensual incest, as much as it might disgust you, it’s not actually wrong. There’s no reason for it to be, unlike everything that is actually wrong like murder, theft, or rape. It doesn’t violate anyone’s rights and it doesn’t unfairly hurt anyone.

  41. @Blackrose

    I think it depends on the connotation you lend to “feel bad for”. I don’t pity the trait in and of itself, I feel bad for the circumstances surrounding it. And therefore, the person under those circumstances?

    In terms of what I meant by loophole… I think under most “normal” circumstances, siblings aren’t attracted to eachother. Though it’s not “bad” for a sibling to be attracted to another (although I think you can agree that this CAN help lead to VERY bad situations which is suggested by your repeated emphasis on ‘consensual’) but it typically doesn’t happen when siblings grow up together. As is my understanding, anyway. Maybe that wasn’t the cleareset word either. Perhaps ‘hiccup’ would be more descriptive? I really don’t know. :/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngWI9-n9V…

  42. @Blackrose

    Yes, I agree that consensual incest is nothing like murder, theft, rape, child molestation. And yes, I find incest disguisting, but I also find it morally wrong, and I am not confusing the two.

    @mydriasis

    I can’t speak for blackrose, but for me the emphasis on saying “consensual incest” is so that it is clear I am talking about two people that “freely and willing agree” to engage in the sexual activity. Primarily so that it does not get confused or lumped in with the type of incest where the older sibling or parent forces it (rape) or does it when the second party is too young(child molestation / statutory rape)

  46. Thanks for adding “Westermarck effect” to my vocabulary, but no one seems to have mentioned its most widespread occurrence.
    The intensely socialist kibbutzim of Israel raised all the kids together, so they all were brothers and sisters. This was a problem when they reached pairing-off age. The solution was that the kibbutzim all sent their kids to the same beach in the summer (Eilat), and let nature take its course.

  47. Thanks for adding “Westermarck effect” to my vocabulary, but no one seems to have mentioned its most widespread occurrence.
    The intensely socialist kibbutzim of Israel raised all the kids together, so they all were brothers and sisters. This was a problem when they reached pairing-off age. The solution was that the kibbutzim all sent their kids to the same beach in the summer (Eilat), and let nature take its course.

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