To become a “member” at Mars Hill Church requires more than attending church. Becoming a full-fledged member—a process highly encouraged, and sometimes thunderously demanded, in Pastor Mark Driscoll’s sermons—requires months of classes and a careful study of Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe, Driscoll’s 463-page Mars Hill textbook. To seal the deal, the prospective member must formally agree to submit to the “authority” of the Mars Hill leadership.
Driscoll, the church’s cofounder and public face, has made a name for himself with his strutting, macho interpretation of Christianity, one in which men are unquestioned heads of their households and “chick-ified church boys,” as he calls them, need not apply. He rails against mainstream Christians who imagine a “Richard Simmons, hippie, queer Christ… a neutered and limp-wristed popular Sky Fairy.” Instead, he has molded a doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God.
Lance, a soft-spoken ex-military guy whose real name is not Lance, started attending Mars Hill Church in early 2008, became a full member before the year was out, and by October of 2010 was deeply and happily immersed in the life of the church. It was, he says, “like a second family.” Around that time, Lance says he “did something I shouldn’t have done.” (I told Lance I wouldn’t divulge his “sins,” but they were amorous indiscretions that anyone who isn’t a fundamentalist Christian, Jew, or Muslim would find extremely minor.) Lance said he “felt like a hypocrite,” so he voluntarily confessed and submitted to six months of counseling and spiritual probation.
In August 2011, a few months after his full restoration to the church, Lance was enjoying life in a Mars Hill house, living with other men and paying his rent in volunteer labor. But that autumn, he had a disagreement with one of his pastors over a building-safety issue during a church party. As Lance tells it, the pastor said Lance was being overcautious, Lance disagreed, and the disagreement metastasized into a weeks-long debate—not about the safety issue, per se, but about whether Lance was being “insubordinate” and refusing to properly “submit.”
“I began to question their authority,” Lance says, “and their ability to make good decisions.”
In the midst of this, Lance had begun a long-distance relationship with a young woman in Colorado. Lance says that his pastor instructed him to end the relationship, even though their relationship was not yet physical and nothing improper had happened. Lance balked, but his pastor insisted: “I’m the authority over you,” the pastor said, according to Lance. “You agreed when you became a member that I am your authority, and you have to obey us.” Lance was torn—on one hand, he had signed that membership contract.
On the other hand, this was ridiculous.
In a final, tense meeting, Lance got fed up with the leadership’s harping about submission and authority. “How is this not a Jim Jones theology?” Lance remembers asking. “We don’t even think you were a Christian to begin with,” the pastor retorted, according to Lance, and left the room. The church told him to move out and, if he wouldn’t submit to church demands, to cut off any communication with members of Mars Hill.
Lance quit the church.
But the church didn’t quit him. Not only was he barred from speaking with his now-former friends at the church, Lance says his pastor threatened to contact any future church that he might attend. And then Lance’s pastor took the extra step of calling the father of Lance’s girlfriend in Colorado. “They were warning him how dangerous I was,” Lance says. “That I was on a path of destruction that could result in the death of his daughter.”
That father, Lieutenant Colonel Mike Hanyok, is a retired marine and evangelical Christian who says the Mars Hill leadership overstepped its authority. “There is church leadership to guide and provide order,” he says, “but not lordship over the congregation.” Hanyok spent 21 years in the US Marines and says, “Poor leadership is one of my pet peeves… the church isn’t to come in and tell me how to manage my family.” Hanyok says he used to watch Driscoll’s sermons online, but doesn’t anymore.
Lance calls the church culture “manipulative” and says, “I don’t want this to happen to other people… It’s how people wound up drinking Kool-Aid.” He adds, “I still love Jesus. But I can continue my spiritual walk just fine at a different church… Mars Hill seems crazy to me now.”
Last week, a similar story from a former Mars Hill member named Andrew erupted into an online firestorm that left some church critics, including longtime members who’ve since departed, wondering aloud whether Mars Hill is crossing the line from church to cult.
On January 23, Andrew released some internal church disciplinary documents to the blog Matthewpaulturner.net. Andrew had sinned by kissing a woman who wasn’t his fiancée and then confessed the sin to his community-group leader. In Mars Hill parlance, “community groups” are breakout sessions that happen throughout the week. Everyone attends a weekend service at one of the 11 Mars Hill campuses to watch a live broadcast of Driscoll preaching from his Ballard church, and then attends various community groups—often in people’s homes—to discuss the week’s lesson.
After Andrew confessed his sinful kissing to his community-group leader, he says he was asked to step down from church responsibilities, forced to attend lots of meetings and confessions over the course of a month about his sinful action, and asked to agree to a “discipline” plan, which included the following acts of repentance and submission: “Andrew will not pursue or date any woman inside or outside MH; Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with [redacted]; Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sin with [redacted] and share it with [redacted] and Pastor [redacted]…”
After thinking it over, Andrew refused and quit the church—but just like with Lance, the church didn’t quit him. In a letter Andrew says is from Mars Hill, one pastor told members to shun Andrew because he refused to “submit to his church leaders” and to not discuss anything with him besides repentance. It even offered a few helpful lines for awkward encounters: “Andrew, I would enjoy time with you, but I can’t because you’re under church discipline. You can join me if we can talk about your refusal to listen to God and the church.”
Once Andrew leaked the documents, the Christian blogosphere exploded with indignation. People were furious about the church’s invasive demands: to stop dating until told otherwise, to write “in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women,” to cut off ties with his friends at Mars Hill. It seemed less about getting right with God than public humiliation and congregation control.
Blog posts appeared with titles like “Never Mind Andrew’s Sin, What About Mars Hill’s Sin?” And “Spiritual Abuse Must Stop.” And “Mark Driscoll: Worst Pastor Ever?” The blog Marshillrefuge.blogspot.com was launched, full of stories similar to Lance’s and Andrew’s. “This,” the blog’s preamble says, “is meant to be a safe haven for those who have been wounded by their experience with Mars Hill Church.”
The woman who runs the blog is an on-fire-for-the-Lord type who tried, with her husband, to join one of Mars Hill’s new spin-off churches. They were frustrated by what they saw as demagoguery and poor leadership by the young, inexperienced men running the community groups: “EVERYTHING,” she writes, “always comes back to DOCTRINE, not JESUS.” Eventually, the couple left. Even though they had not become full-blown members, their community-group leader demanded an explanation from the husband anyway. When the husband said, in essence, it’s none of your business, he says the group leader questioned his faith in Jesus and ability to lead his family, and accused the couple of stirring up division (a common charge from Mars Hill). “We have never again heard from any of our friends from that group,” his wife writes.
Mars Hill pastor Jeff Bettger responded to queries from The Stranger about these stories with a long, heartfelt e-mail. He confirmed some of the stories, did not deny the rest, and wrote:
I personally have never known anybody at Mars Hill who would harass, blackmail, verbally abuse, or belittle ex-members. I would actually say that over the last few years Mars Hill has increasingly become more loving, kind, generous, and humble. I have been seeing this over and over from leadership at Mars Hill, and from members. We know we are not perfect, but we believe in an active God who loves us… The way God is growing this Church, I don’t believe anybody would even have the time, let alone the interest, to follow ex-members around. We have a difficult enough time maintaining all the work that needs to get done from week to week as well as meeting with all the people who want counsel and are hurting.
The Stranger attempted to contact several current members of Mars Hill, but none of them responded to requests for comment.
The music critic Chris Estey, who used to attend Mars Hill in the early days, remembers the moment he started drifting away from the church. He was walking out of one especially long-winded service by Driscoll and joking to a friend: “Hey, that guy needs an editor!” He says he was “accosted” by other churchgoers: “They were saying, ‘How dare you! He has vision and you have no idea!’ I kinda started separating then. That was the first time I’d had that culty feeling.”
Mars Hill began in the late 1990s, bouncing between apartments, parks, and spare rooms. It appealed to young people who felt out of place in other churches. By 2008, it was the 23rd-fastest-growing church in the United States, with a 38 percent bump in attendance in a single year, according to Outreach magazine. New campuses opened across the city. The Acts 29 Network, founded by Mars Hill and led by Driscoll, “planted” dozens and dozens of new churches across North America, creating a dense network of churches that are not tied to a denomination, but to Mars Hill. In 2006, Mars Hill claimed $31,110,000 in assets. (According to a church-generated report—since it’s a church, Mars Hill is not required to publicly disclose its tax returns.)
As the church grew, Driscoll became more visible, landing high-profile gigs (like an appearance on Loveline with Dr. Drew) where he drew more criticism. Also in 2006, he infamously commented on Ted Haggard’s meth-and-prostitute scandal by casting aspersions on Haggard’s wife: “A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.”
Around the same time, one of Mars Hill’s three cofounders suddenly left the church with little explanation and started a pizza restaurant in Redmond. Two prominent and well-liked pastors (Paul Petry and Bent Meyer) were fired during a debate over how to restructure the church—one for “displaying an unhealthy distrust in the senior leadership,” and the other for “disregarding the accepted elder protocol for the bylaw deliberation period” and “verbally attacking the lead pastor.” In other words, for not being submissive. (When contacted for this story, Petry simply said: “I don’t really have anything to add at this time.”)
The congregation was in an uproar. “That was a wild time,” says Dusty Wisniew, who has since left the church but says he still respects it. “There were tons of people asking a bunch of questions.” Driscoll answered questioners in a sermon: “Some adults are just always questioning… these are people with critical spirits. These are people that if you answer their question, they’ve got 25 more questions, and they’ll have questions forever. And it’s not that they have questions, it’s that they’re sinning through questioning. The heart is not good.”
All church memberships were suspended, Wisniew says, and people were encouraged to reapply under the new organizational structure, with new requirements—or quietly leave. One day during that period, Wisniew delivered some money from the Wedgwood campus to the Ballard campus. “All over the place, there was this poster that said ‘membership = discipleship.'” He decided not to renew his membership. He’s still close to many at Mars Hill and still admires Driscoll. But, he says, “I believe that what unites us isn’t a piece of paper. It’s the blood of Jesus.”
Last Sunday morning, a few hundred people filled the downtown branch of Mars Hill Church to hear Pastor Mark Driscoll deliver a sermon titled “Men and Marriage.” It was the third in an 11-week series based on his new book ($12.49 at Amazon.com) and DVD curriculum ($24.99 at Christianbook.com), cowritten with his wife, Grace, called Real Marriage. I attended to see if Driscoll was going address the recent storm of criticism online.
After the band played two indie-rock hymns, Pastor Driscoll appeared on a live video feed from his Ballard church. His “Men and Marriage” sermon was relatively tame: A husband should be the firm and responsible head of his household, the leader of a “little flock called home and family.” He should think of his wife as “a garden” and himself as “the gardener.” If you look at your garden and don’t like how it looks, Driscoll preaches, just remember: “You are the gardener.”
He said he knows his views are unpopular—that he’s even been called a misogynist. “And I don’t even know how to give a massage,” he joked, his eyes twinkling roguishly toward the camera that was beaming his image to 11 screens in 11 churches across the city, as well as churches in Oregon, New Mexico, and California.
The thing his sermon didn’t address—the thing I came hoping to hear about—was when submission to human authority goes too far.
Whatever the controversies, Driscoll shows nothing but confidence in himself and in the future of Mars Hill, including a plan for the next generation called “Mars Hill Kids.” “I want to start preparing our children for ministry at age 2,” he said in a video last summer. He has proposed building a “Nickelodeon-type studio” to broadcast kids’ shows and indoor play structures at every Mars Hill property to attract kids, “especially the boys, the kinesthetic learners, so they can get a little activity.” (Imagine being the gay kid—or the kid everyone thinks is gay—at that playground.)
There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children’s version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, “an integration between church and home.” Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children’s Bible. “Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys’ll like it, too,” he said on one video, winking. “We’re gonna do it Mars Hill–style.”
The point of Mars Hill Kids, Driscoll says, is continuity:
So that when the kids grow up, they don’t do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: “Well, I’m ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I’ve been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I’m going to join a community group: I’ve been in one since I’ve been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I’m okay with video because that’s what I’ve been doing for a really long time—so I’m an old-school, 18-year-old veteran.”
What does it mean that Driscoll imagines keeping people, who’ve been studying his Doctrine from the age of 2, in Mars Hill after high school? Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives? Or does he imagine that, in 20 years, Mars Hill churches will be everywhere?
Either way, Driscoll imagines his flock—the membership model, the community groups, the Doctrine—as permanent. Womb to tomb. Just as long as you don’t ask too many questions. 
This article has been updated since its original publication.
I’m a deacon at Mars Hill and have been a member of the church for eight years. Because the names of the people interviewed in this article have been omitted, and the accused haven’t been provided the opportunity to respond, I can’t comment on those cases specifically. That said, I don’t doubt that some of these accounts are probably true.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don’t like the rules, don’t join. There are leaders in the church I don’t agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I’ll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being “team players”, or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don’t see the Stranger writing articles entitled “Software company or cult?”
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
I’m a deacon at Mars Hill and have been a member of the church for eight years. Because the names of the people interviewed in this article have been omitted, and the accused haven’t been provided the opportunity to respond, I can’t comment on those cases specifically. That said, I don’t doubt that some of these accounts are probably true.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don’t like the rules, don’t join. There are leaders in the church I don’t agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I’ll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being “team players”, or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don’t see the Stranger writing articles entitled “Software company or cult?”
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
Sorry for the double post there. Didn’t think the first one went through.
Thank you Brandon for what seems to me to be a very careful and well written article.
I am struck by the stories of both men who were willing to not only to tell their stories, but courageous enough at the time to be honest with their partners and their community about their own personal failings. Shit – that takes a lot of guts and I am saddened that their courage was met by shame instead of the graceful compassion that I would expect from anyone who knows the teachings of Jesus. – robert deeble
Thank you Brandon for what seems to me to be a fair and well written article.
I am struck by the stories of both of these men in the article not only for their willingness to to tell their stories, but for their courage to be honest with their partners and community about their own personal failings. That takes guts and it is sad to me that such courage was met with shame by their community and not the graceful compassion that I would expect from anyone who has ever read the teachings of Jesus (or carefully studied the letters of Paul).
NJot just ‘crossing the line’ but HAS crossed the line –all the earmarks of a cult. Remember the Community Chapel in Burien years ago? The same things are transpiring at Mars Hill – and too many of its’ people are blind to these dangers ! There undoubtedly will be a big fall in the future….M. Driscoll appears to be a very dangerous personality !
Wow, another anti-Marshill/Mark Driscoll article from the Stranger. Surprise, surprise. In a city of more than 2 million don’t you have something else to write about?
Thank you Brendan for your article. Mars Hill Church is a church that needs to be taken down. I was there for a year and a half because Pastor Mark Driscoll was the first pastor that spoke to me at the time. Before that, I would always fall asleep at church. I went to Mars Hill U-District because I wanted to better myself and get comfort for my organic chemistry issues. I just felt judged the entire time I was there. He believes that Avatar is paganism and non christians are demonic amongst other things. They also have a pie chart during offering to guilt trip you to offer to the church. The people are just like Mark Driscoll. They judged and yelled at me for asking questions such as “Why did God create the forbidden fruit?” and answered it with “Just have faith”. I left this church and religion altogether
@161, seattle’s population is around 500,000. do your homework, shit-for-brains.
also, as a wise man once said, it’s not the faith that’s the problem, it’s the faithful.
History has shown that those who impose these standards are often sexually perverse themselves. Time will play this out. Don’t be surprised.
hi – good article. wanted to point out that boys being kinesthetic learners has NOTHING to do with their sexuality. Boys learning styles have led to higher ADHD diagnosis rates and failure in school environments. Boys simply learn in a more physical manner and really do need lots of physical activity. No matter what an idiot Driscoll is, he’s actually right that providing indoor playgrounds would help boys in general. A gay boy would feel fine because unless he’s actually transgendered, he’s still a boy and will still learn like a boy.
DeaconD, it’s telling that you compare MH to a business rather than taking a nod from the bible and comparing the church to a body. Do you make a contract with your arm? How about your shin? Do you cut off your foot when you step on a nail? Thinking of the church as a body, the situations described in Brendan’s piece are ones where the treatment is worse than any effects of the sickness itself.
@155 – Comparing a company (Microsoft) to a church clearly shows you don’t understand what a cult is. Microsoft’s behavior of firing people for not doing their job is far different than the bizarre practices of Mars Hill. And although some might argue with this, Microsoft isn’t a religious institution.
A cult by definition has practices that are considered abnormal. Microsoft, or any company, has established rules, policies, and procedures in place that protect the company, rather than the leader of a church, and are usually standard practice throughout the industry.
And, I applaud you for saving people from depression, drug addiction, hopelessness, and abuse, BUT people can be saved from all those things WITHOUT religion.
@163 – Although he’s incorrect with the 2 million population, you’re also incorrect. Seattle’s population is just over 608,000. And the urban population (Seattle and surrounding suburbs) is 2.7 million.
I’ve been at the church almost 5 years. I’ve asked many, MANY faith-shaking questions, and never held back about my doubts, and I’ve never felt judged or condemned. In fact, the pastors were very open, very compassionate, and very helpful.
Many of the sermons I heard have openly said the opposite of what the claims in this article are. Mainly, the questioning and the unchecked authority of the husband. Driscoll himself, MULTIPLE TIMES, said that if his sermons and stances aren’t aligned with Scripture, then he is the one who’s wrong, and should be regarded as such. And the cherry-picking about the husband being simply a gardener is sad skew of the true view at MH.
I’ve never once encountered a power-tripping elder or deacon, but I’ll keep an open mind and keep an eye out, as such a person should absolutely be exposed and dealt with.
At first I thought this article was a joke, until I read that people are actually taking it seriously. I don’t know if this guy is just trying to drum up controversy, or it’s just somebody trying to skew facts in order to push their own beliefs on people.
I wouldn’t expect anybody to believe me, though. Instead, I would implore that people do their own research, rather than blindly trusting this Brendan Kiley guy. A lot of important facts are omitted, other half-truths are ridiculously skewed, and it sickens me that The Stranger would release such a slanderous article.
Nothing compares to going out and doing your own fact-checking. And frankly, people who would read an article, and believe every word have no place to judge anybody for allegedly “drinking the kool-aid”.
I’ve been at the church almost 5 years. I’ve asked many, MANY faith-shaking questions, and never held back about my doubts, and I’ve never felt judged or condemned. In fact, the pastors were very open, very compassionate, and very helpful.
Many of the sermons I heard have openly said the opposite of what the claims in this article are. Mainly, the questioning and the unchecked authority of the husband. Driscoll himself, MULTIPLE TIMES, said that if his sermons and stances aren’t aligned with Scripture, then he is the one who’s wrong, and should be regarded as such. And the cherry-picking about the husband being simply a gardener is sad skew of the true view at MH.
I’ve never once encountered a power-tripping elder or deacon, but I’ll keep an open mind and keep an eye out, as such a person should absolutely be exposed and dealt with.
At first I thought this article was a joke, until I read that people are actually taking it seriously. I don’t know if this guy is just trying to drum up controversy, or it’s just somebody trying to skew facts in order to push their own beliefs on people.
I wouldn’t expect anybody to believe me, though. Instead, I would implore that people do their own research, rather than blindly trusting this Brendan Kiley guy. A lot of important facts are omitted, other half-truths are ridiculously skewed, and it sickens me that The Stranger would release such a slanderous article.
Nothing compares to going out and doing your own fact-checking. And frankly, people who would read an article, and believe every word have no place to judge anybody for allegedly “drinking the kool-aid”.
When you quit Microsoft, they don’t generally follow you–or ban you from contacting current employees. They also don’t tell you who to date and such, but of course, they’re in the software business, not the sin-redemption business.
To me, it’s comforting to know that if Mars Hill people do harass members who quit (even in the sense of “warning” their new church of their sins), it’s very possible for ex-members to take legal action against the church and win.
US law holds that if you join a church, you are subject to its rules. Likewise though, if you quit it, they have no authority to do anything to you.
A number of churches have tried to assert authority on those who have left, and found out the hard way that that doesn’t fly.
@170 Careful with the positive stories about Mars Hill. Hearing the other side of the story might not be appreciated here. Let’s try to keep it all one sided, reactionary Christian bashing all in the name of “free thinking”. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Sigh. I don’t think Jesus is into it. Love’s bigger than that.
MARS HILL: THE SAME OLD INTOLERANT, FUNDAMENTALIST WOLF DRESSED IN A WOOL HIPSTER OUTFIT.
I was raised in a Jehovah’s Witness environment, and can say with conviction (pun intended) that this shit is the same fundamental rhetoric. I will deal with the same psychological triggers mentioned in this story for the rest of my life–they get planted that deep. It is something NO LOVING PARENT would ever burden their child with. Period.
This is the SAME shit Jehovah’s Witnesses do! The misogyny, the intolerance, the threats, the social punishment–not even Driscoll’s pathetic methods are original! They defy ALL of Jesus Christ’s teachings and it is sickening. Wanna talk about authority? MATTHEW 23:27
P.S. @Vertex (& all defending this church and thinking that this is how “Christians” act)- You are all morons. As in stupid. Unintelligent. Congratulations! Think I’m attacking you Ad hominem? Nope, sorry! It’s empirical: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/201… Read it if you are able.
Here’s a taster: ”Lower levels of abstract reasoning also predicted greater right-wing authoritarianism, which in turn predicted elevated prejudice against homosexuals. Independent of these effects, there was a simultaneous indirect effect through increased intergroup contact: Individuals who had a greater capacity for abstract reasoning experienced more contact with out-groups, and more contact predicted less prejudice.”
Whitewashed graves… of the mind.
Amen.
–Brine
MARS HILL: THE SAME OLD INTOLERANT, FUNDAMENTALIST WOLF DRESSED IN A WOOL HIPSTER OUTFIT.
I was raised in a Jehovah’s Witness environment. I was involved in the church into my twenties and my father was and is a pastor in that religion–thus can say with conviction (pun intended) that this shit is the EXACT same fundamentalist, manipulative, small-minded rhetoric. The mention of the Mars Hill Kids development resonated particularly with me, as I will deal with (essentially) the same psychological triggers mentioned in this story for the rest of my life–when planted during infancy, as Driscoll talked about, oh yes, they get planted THAT deep. It is something NO LOVING PARENT would ever burden their child with. Period.
It begs to be shouted: this is the SAME sick strategy Jehovah’s Witnesses use! THE SAME! The misogyny, the intolerance, the threats, the social punishment–not even Driscoll’s pathetic methods are original!!! More importantly, though, they defy ALL of Jesus Christ’s teachings, and that is the most sickening of all. Wanna talk about the “authority of the church” in this context? It is astoundingly anti-christian. READ MATTHEW 23:27. READ MATTHEW 7:3.
P.S. @Vertex (& all defending this church and thinking that this is how “Christians” act)- Not only are you *NOT* acting like Christ did, but you are all morons, as well. Yes, as in stupid, unintelligent. Think I’m attacking you Ad hominem? Think again (if you have the capability)! It’s empirical: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/201…
Read it if you can manage it.
Here’s a taster: “Lower levels of abstract reasoning also predicted greater right-wing authoritarianism, which in turn predicted elevated prejudice against homosexuals [amongst other groups]. Independent of these effects, there was a simultaneous indirect effect through increased intergroup contact: Individuals who had a greater capacity for abstract reasoning experienced more contact with out-groups, and more contact predicted less prejudice.”
You are, indeed, as Jesus called it, whitewashed graves… of the soul and the mind.
Amen, brothers and sisters!
–Brine
**haha whoops, got a little carried away–double post! (read the second one!)**
@172 – More of the poor, poor, pitiful put-upon Christian routine. So much oppression against the pet superstition of the ruling class!
To those of you defending MD and MH, YOU need to do your research….There has been too much damage done to young people and so many families destroyed! I would say when the dust settles there will be many more. To you that are under the Driscoll spell I pray you wake up before you are like me, just more collateral damage…
I am not a member of Mars Hill. I am not even Christian. I’m just a guy that reads The Stranger, and I have to say that this article was kinda lame. I mean, to start with, the verdict was clearly made before the research was even started. It goes without saying that there was a heavy bias employed in selecting interview subjects, but it goes further than that – it is totally weak journalism. Sure, religion is a touchy subject. Most of the above comments serve to show how easy it is to stir that pot. If you are going to write about religion, why not challenge your readership in some way? All I can see here is that The Stranger had nothing more interesting to report on, so sunk to the low tide of journalism – attacking churches. Yawn.
Full disclosure: I attend Mars Hill Church regularly, and I am a member.
I’m sorry that you were disappointed that Pastor Mark did not address any of these old or new issues in the sermon you attended. Pastor Mark’s sermons are in fact not transmitted live anymore (although they used to be a couple of years ago). Most weeks there is a one-week delay between the sermon preached in Ballard and the sermons seen at the other locations. In the Real Marriage series, the majority of the sermons were actually recorded in two long evening sessions at the Bellevue location back in December so you may continue to expect them not to address topical subjects for the next several weeks.
Thanks,
Jeremy
The one defining characteristic of every cult is CONTROL – its leader’s desire to control every aspect of their followers’ lives.
This is a cult.
Also…why are Mars Hill people always ugly?? I’m sorry, but it’s true!
Interesting article, and even more interesting comments from the people that’ve clearly drunk the koolaid.
Very interesting read. I do hope those who need a little help get to this.
It’s got all of the earmarks, from this side of the story. “Cult” at worst; “Pharisaical” at best.
God hates faux hawks, especially Mark’s. A heavenly angel came to me in my sleep and told me this, no joke!
Sadly, these are not exaggerations. I attended MH for 8 years, from close to it’s beginning. This has become, more and more, a very, very controlling church. It’s so sad.
I continue to pray that my friends who are still there will have their eyes opened. I know it will be very hard for them when they do. There needs to be time for healing after realizing you have been manipulated.
I’m sad I was there as long as I was, but there were some better times. There were also warning signs. However, in the light of “there is no perfect church and Christians are far from perfect”, myself included, I continued to attend.
I’m reading what is so far a very good book: “Walk On: The Spiritual Journey of U2” by Steve Stockman. They (U2) were appalled and saddened by what so many people and churches were saying and doing “in the name of Christ”. They chose to follow Christ but distance themselves from the lunacy and I completely relate.
You got Ezekiel 4:9 granola and uncle sam cornflakes at QFC.
http://www.foodforlife.com/product-catal…
http://www.attunefoods.com/products/Uncl…
Your Government protects the christian rackets as right wing Jesus freaks shovel big bucks to its polittypiggy of choice to the point they demonize gay people and other religions and other nations or black people, slavery, Illegals, Canadians….etc.
Next Sunday they are going to drag their ignorant shame-full ass to a bunch of churches and study a book as they remain set in for “one” cause and thats to spread Crist-insaneity and Republican polittypiggys across the globe.
Yup the middle east feels paronoid and it should as nothing “but” the talk of war is backed with violence in the street and American troops loitering forever.
But never fear as God kicks the crap out of all of us humans. Molesters in the catholic church! gay date rapers! even the righteous and good! even children and babys and kittens and lady bugs.
we all suffer and if you have not yet and don’t believe you will you may be an ignorant insane republican christian hell bent to prove gays are
evil terrorists and Muslim middle east should be bombed and colonized.
Here’s a helpful blog (from a local church) on the pros and cons of church discipline: http://graceseattle.wordpress.com/2012/0…
Sounds like Jerry Falwell come back to life as a wanna be hipster:
– sheep. Check
– school. Check
– balls. Check
Next thing we’ll hear him talk about wanting to open up a research university as bad ass as UW.
The ironic thing, to me at least, is that the term ‘hipster’ sounds like one of those media inventions, in this case, as a tool to communicate their ideas about a sub-culture (they haven’t quite figured out yet). No?
Thanks for this article – I’ve heard rumors of this church since I moved to Seattle, and how interesting to read about its inception.
I just want to say: I’m Catholic and in all my years of attending different parishes, none of this crap ever happened. NOT all organized religion is the same, and not all Christianity sects are the same. Sermons are inspiring yet logical, and not offensive in the least. Priests don’t put down other religions, or tell you how to vote. Nobody in the “community” tells you how to live. I would even say most Catholic people I’ve met are rather liberal and accepting, open-minded.
One of the creepiest things is that Mars Hill members are in the comments arguing about what Andrew REALLY did or did not do w/ women in their church – how do they KNOW about that!?!? Sooo creepy. In normal churches, the sexual actions of another member aren’t made public or spoken about. Gross.
Mars Hill isn’t much different from most evangelical conservative christian churches. If you ask me about my old church, I will tell you that it is a good church, that is full of good people, but people who are too afraid to be real, too afraid of being anything but superfical.
I attend Mars Hill, and I can say that the people who leave Mars Hill might say the same thing.
The core of it is, when you leave a church, unless you’re are moving due to geography, there is ALWAYS a degree of hurt and maybe distrust. These people were your family, they dealt with the junk in your life, and then poof, they’re gone. That intensifies the hurt. I still feel hurt from leaving my old church, BUT I also have enough wisdom to know, that that’s just how it goes.
I’m sorry for the people of MH that have been deeply hurt. Some of it is probably just as I said, and some of it I am sure is based on someone at the church, acting on their own wisdom, and not God’s.
What you have to realize is, church is a place of broken people. We are always going to hurt eachother, and I think hurt eachother more deeply, because we know eachother on a deeper level.
It’s easy to judge the whole church, but don’t forget, you’re judging the people whithin it, most who are just the average people of the city. Which, is like saying “all asians drive hondas, or all lesbians have short hair, or all people who wear tennis shoes run” You are making sweeping sterotypes that are not always true, and sometimes very hurtful
I know The Stranger’s demographic, and while trying not to be a hypocrite… most already don’t like Mars Hill. Please though, balance your reporting. And if they don’t want to speak to you, could it be, because they have been burned by your newspaper too many times, and they don’t want to feed the beast and be misquoted?
Consider it.
Every church has it’s problems. Even the apostle Paul had pastors and teachers go haywire on him. At Mars Hill and any other church.
Hang around long enough at any church and you’ll see evidence that sin does exist, unfortunately even in the leadership.
You try to weed it out, but leaders still get into their positions and do damage before their stuff is caught.
This is why Jesus died. Sin exists.
It’s easy to bash any church is we don’t like the Christian religion.
Some Christians are just plain contentious.
I would be careful about believing everything you hear. I don’t care what kind of paper documentation is provided. Paul Petry (the pastor who was fired) told me in front of my dad that my ex-husband never hit me and that I needed to repent and go back to my abusive (and lying) ex-husband. Paul Petry (who was fired) was spiritually abusive to me. So I hesitate to take his “witness” as face value. Be careful. Remember that only God has all the information.
This article confirms 1)sin exists (remember, Jesus died to save sinners,) and 2) churches have problems. Mark Driscoll might just be more vocal, and their policies might be a little over the top) but the church issas of sinners
P.s. If you’re almost having sex with an old flame when you’re a month away from getting married to the fiancé you are having sex with, like Andrew in the story above, and you’re also lying to your premarital pastor and yelling him you’re not having sex bit you’re saying you’re a conservative Christian, you better hope your church would speak up about it.
Again, these people may not be giving us all the information.
I guess since the author of the article doesn’t provide any example or explanation about what a “church” would be, or look like, we are all forced to draw the conclusion that it’s a cult. It looks less like reporting, or even journalism, and more like people with a social-issue axe to grind.
Also, it is hilarious to me that everyone is freaking out about the church wanting to teach kids when they are 2 years old. Imagine the brainwashing! The government has made it a legal requirement for you to have your kids schooled for 12 years, starting around the age of 6, and if you didn’t want to attempt this hurculean task on your own, they’ve provided the facilities for you to send your kids to (since you’re required to). But fear not, I am sure no brainwashing happens there.
Just kidding. The intellectually feeble comments in this section, demonstrating a general inability to critically think, prove the brainwashing machine is alive and well.
Keep calm and carry on, citizens!
Anyone who preaches against masturbation is beyond my scope of understanding, even in the most idiotic of realms. As my mother always said to me and repetitively to my friends in high school, “masturbation is the safest form of sex.” So have at it! Everyone should be masturbating, if they aren’t getting action on the regular at least. We’d all be a lot happier and probably nicer co-workers. Better drivers. Better tippers. Let me just say… when I think about you, I touch myself. Not you Mark Driscoll, though. Sick.
Also, God is all forgiving. Anyone who is mislead by this is not really any sort of Christian. Church really isn’t necessary. Believing in a wrathful God means you are living in your own personal Hell. So congratulations, you’ve made it.
Go. Be nice to each other. Go. Touch yourself- or your significant others, respectfully, of course. They don’t call it a happy ending for nothin’.
Also, can we all stop spelling Kool Aid “Cool Aid”?!?!? I’m a terrible speller, but even I know that.
One last note, isn’t it, if I’m following mars hill’s doctrine correctly, partly his fiancée’s fault for not putting out enough to keep him interested? I hope she was also scrutinized.
That was sarcasm.
And let’s not forget…he is getting RICH doing this.
134 & 166 (response to 156) Are the highlights to this circular conversation, I’m glad a read through all this for those two alone..