To become a “member” at Mars Hill Church requires more than attending church. Becoming a full-fledged member—a process highly encouraged, and sometimes thunderously demanded, in Pastor Mark Driscoll’s sermons—requires months of classes and a careful study of Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe, Driscoll’s 463-page Mars Hill textbook. To seal the deal, the prospective member must formally agree to submit to the “authority” of the Mars Hill leadership.
Driscoll, the church’s cofounder and public face, has made a name for himself with his strutting, macho interpretation of Christianity, one in which men are unquestioned heads of their households and “chick-ified church boys,” as he calls them, need not apply. He rails against mainstream Christians who imagine a “Richard Simmons, hippie, queer Christ… a neutered and limp-wristed popular Sky Fairy.” Instead, he has molded a doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God.
Lance, a soft-spoken ex-military guy whose real name is not Lance, started attending Mars Hill Church in early 2008, became a full member before the year was out, and by October of 2010 was deeply and happily immersed in the life of the church. It was, he says, “like a second family.” Around that time, Lance says he “did something I shouldn’t have done.” (I told Lance I wouldn’t divulge his “sins,” but they were amorous indiscretions that anyone who isn’t a fundamentalist Christian, Jew, or Muslim would find extremely minor.) Lance said he “felt like a hypocrite,” so he voluntarily confessed and submitted to six months of counseling and spiritual probation.
In August 2011, a few months after his full restoration to the church, Lance was enjoying life in a Mars Hill house, living with other men and paying his rent in volunteer labor. But that autumn, he had a disagreement with one of his pastors over a building-safety issue during a church party. As Lance tells it, the pastor said Lance was being overcautious, Lance disagreed, and the disagreement metastasized into a weeks-long debate—not about the safety issue, per se, but about whether Lance was being “insubordinate” and refusing to properly “submit.”
“I began to question their authority,” Lance says, “and their ability to make good decisions.”
In the midst of this, Lance had begun a long-distance relationship with a young woman in Colorado. Lance says that his pastor instructed him to end the relationship, even though their relationship was not yet physical and nothing improper had happened. Lance balked, but his pastor insisted: “I’m the authority over you,” the pastor said, according to Lance. “You agreed when you became a member that I am your authority, and you have to obey us.” Lance was torn—on one hand, he had signed that membership contract.
On the other hand, this was ridiculous.
In a final, tense meeting, Lance got fed up with the leadership’s harping about submission and authority. “How is this not a Jim Jones theology?” Lance remembers asking. “We don’t even think you were a Christian to begin with,” the pastor retorted, according to Lance, and left the room. The church told him to move out and, if he wouldn’t submit to church demands, to cut off any communication with members of Mars Hill.
Lance quit the church.
But the church didn’t quit him. Not only was he barred from speaking with his now-former friends at the church, Lance says his pastor threatened to contact any future church that he might attend. And then Lance’s pastor took the extra step of calling the father of Lance’s girlfriend in Colorado. “They were warning him how dangerous I was,” Lance says. “That I was on a path of destruction that could result in the death of his daughter.”
That father, Lieutenant Colonel Mike Hanyok, is a retired marine and evangelical Christian who says the Mars Hill leadership overstepped its authority. “There is church leadership to guide and provide order,” he says, “but not lordship over the congregation.” Hanyok spent 21 years in the US Marines and says, “Poor leadership is one of my pet peeves… the church isn’t to come in and tell me how to manage my family.” Hanyok says he used to watch Driscoll’s sermons online, but doesn’t anymore.
Lance calls the church culture “manipulative” and says, “I don’t want this to happen to other people… It’s how people wound up drinking Kool-Aid.” He adds, “I still love Jesus. But I can continue my spiritual walk just fine at a different church… Mars Hill seems crazy to me now.”
Last week, a similar story from a former Mars Hill member named Andrew erupted into an online firestorm that left some church critics, including longtime members who’ve since departed, wondering aloud whether Mars Hill is crossing the line from church to cult.
On January 23, Andrew released some internal church disciplinary documents to the blog Matthewpaulturner.net. Andrew had sinned by kissing a woman who wasn’t his fiancée and then confessed the sin to his community-group leader. In Mars Hill parlance, “community groups” are breakout sessions that happen throughout the week. Everyone attends a weekend service at one of the 11 Mars Hill campuses to watch a live broadcast of Driscoll preaching from his Ballard church, and then attends various community groups—often in people’s homes—to discuss the week’s lesson.
After Andrew confessed his sinful kissing to his community-group leader, he says he was asked to step down from church responsibilities, forced to attend lots of meetings and confessions over the course of a month about his sinful action, and asked to agree to a “discipline” plan, which included the following acts of repentance and submission: “Andrew will not pursue or date any woman inside or outside MH; Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with [redacted]; Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sin with [redacted] and share it with [redacted] and Pastor [redacted]…”
After thinking it over, Andrew refused and quit the church—but just like with Lance, the church didn’t quit him. In a letter Andrew says is from Mars Hill, one pastor told members to shun Andrew because he refused to “submit to his church leaders” and to not discuss anything with him besides repentance. It even offered a few helpful lines for awkward encounters: “Andrew, I would enjoy time with you, but I can’t because you’re under church discipline. You can join me if we can talk about your refusal to listen to God and the church.”
Once Andrew leaked the documents, the Christian blogosphere exploded with indignation. People were furious about the church’s invasive demands: to stop dating until told otherwise, to write “in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women,” to cut off ties with his friends at Mars Hill. It seemed less about getting right with God than public humiliation and congregation control.
Blog posts appeared with titles like “Never Mind Andrew’s Sin, What About Mars Hill’s Sin?” And “Spiritual Abuse Must Stop.” And “Mark Driscoll: Worst Pastor Ever?” The blog Marshillrefuge.blogspot.com was launched, full of stories similar to Lance’s and Andrew’s. “This,” the blog’s preamble says, “is meant to be a safe haven for those who have been wounded by their experience with Mars Hill Church.”
The woman who runs the blog is an on-fire-for-the-Lord type who tried, with her husband, to join one of Mars Hill’s new spin-off churches. They were frustrated by what they saw as demagoguery and poor leadership by the young, inexperienced men running the community groups: “EVERYTHING,” she writes, “always comes back to DOCTRINE, not JESUS.” Eventually, the couple left. Even though they had not become full-blown members, their community-group leader demanded an explanation from the husband anyway. When the husband said, in essence, it’s none of your business, he says the group leader questioned his faith in Jesus and ability to lead his family, and accused the couple of stirring up division (a common charge from Mars Hill). “We have never again heard from any of our friends from that group,” his wife writes.
Mars Hill pastor Jeff Bettger responded to queries from The Stranger about these stories with a long, heartfelt e-mail. He confirmed some of the stories, did not deny the rest, and wrote:
I personally have never known anybody at Mars Hill who would harass, blackmail, verbally abuse, or belittle ex-members. I would actually say that over the last few years Mars Hill has increasingly become more loving, kind, generous, and humble. I have been seeing this over and over from leadership at Mars Hill, and from members. We know we are not perfect, but we believe in an active God who loves us… The way God is growing this Church, I don’t believe anybody would even have the time, let alone the interest, to follow ex-members around. We have a difficult enough time maintaining all the work that needs to get done from week to week as well as meeting with all the people who want counsel and are hurting.
The Stranger attempted to contact several current members of Mars Hill, but none of them responded to requests for comment.
The music critic Chris Estey, who used to attend Mars Hill in the early days, remembers the moment he started drifting away from the church. He was walking out of one especially long-winded service by Driscoll and joking to a friend: “Hey, that guy needs an editor!” He says he was “accosted” by other churchgoers: “They were saying, ‘How dare you! He has vision and you have no idea!’ I kinda started separating then. That was the first time I’d had that culty feeling.”
Mars Hill began in the late 1990s, bouncing between apartments, parks, and spare rooms. It appealed to young people who felt out of place in other churches. By 2008, it was the 23rd-fastest-growing church in the United States, with a 38 percent bump in attendance in a single year, according to Outreach magazine. New campuses opened across the city. The Acts 29 Network, founded by Mars Hill and led by Driscoll, “planted” dozens and dozens of new churches across North America, creating a dense network of churches that are not tied to a denomination, but to Mars Hill. In 2006, Mars Hill claimed $31,110,000 in assets. (According to a church-generated report—since it’s a church, Mars Hill is not required to publicly disclose its tax returns.)
As the church grew, Driscoll became more visible, landing high-profile gigs (like an appearance on Loveline with Dr. Drew) where he drew more criticism. Also in 2006, he infamously commented on Ted Haggard’s meth-and-prostitute scandal by casting aspersions on Haggard’s wife: “A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.”
Around the same time, one of Mars Hill’s three cofounders suddenly left the church with little explanation and started a pizza restaurant in Redmond. Two prominent and well-liked pastors (Paul Petry and Bent Meyer) were fired during a debate over how to restructure the church—one for “displaying an unhealthy distrust in the senior leadership,” and the other for “disregarding the accepted elder protocol for the bylaw deliberation period” and “verbally attacking the lead pastor.” In other words, for not being submissive. (When contacted for this story, Petry simply said: “I don’t really have anything to add at this time.”)
The congregation was in an uproar. “That was a wild time,” says Dusty Wisniew, who has since left the church but says he still respects it. “There were tons of people asking a bunch of questions.” Driscoll answered questioners in a sermon: “Some adults are just always questioning… these are people with critical spirits. These are people that if you answer their question, they’ve got 25 more questions, and they’ll have questions forever. And it’s not that they have questions, it’s that they’re sinning through questioning. The heart is not good.”
All church memberships were suspended, Wisniew says, and people were encouraged to reapply under the new organizational structure, with new requirements—or quietly leave. One day during that period, Wisniew delivered some money from the Wedgwood campus to the Ballard campus. “All over the place, there was this poster that said ‘membership = discipleship.'” He decided not to renew his membership. He’s still close to many at Mars Hill and still admires Driscoll. But, he says, “I believe that what unites us isn’t a piece of paper. It’s the blood of Jesus.”
Last Sunday morning, a few hundred people filled the downtown branch of Mars Hill Church to hear Pastor Mark Driscoll deliver a sermon titled “Men and Marriage.” It was the third in an 11-week series based on his new book ($12.49 at Amazon.com) and DVD curriculum ($24.99 at Christianbook.com), cowritten with his wife, Grace, called Real Marriage. I attended to see if Driscoll was going address the recent storm of criticism online.
After the band played two indie-rock hymns, Pastor Driscoll appeared on a live video feed from his Ballard church. His “Men and Marriage” sermon was relatively tame: A husband should be the firm and responsible head of his household, the leader of a “little flock called home and family.” He should think of his wife as “a garden” and himself as “the gardener.” If you look at your garden and don’t like how it looks, Driscoll preaches, just remember: “You are the gardener.”
He said he knows his views are unpopular—that he’s even been called a misogynist. “And I don’t even know how to give a massage,” he joked, his eyes twinkling roguishly toward the camera that was beaming his image to 11 screens in 11 churches across the city, as well as churches in Oregon, New Mexico, and California.
The thing his sermon didn’t address—the thing I came hoping to hear about—was when submission to human authority goes too far.
Whatever the controversies, Driscoll shows nothing but confidence in himself and in the future of Mars Hill, including a plan for the next generation called “Mars Hill Kids.” “I want to start preparing our children for ministry at age 2,” he said in a video last summer. He has proposed building a “Nickelodeon-type studio” to broadcast kids’ shows and indoor play structures at every Mars Hill property to attract kids, “especially the boys, the kinesthetic learners, so they can get a little activity.” (Imagine being the gay kid—or the kid everyone thinks is gay—at that playground.)
There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children’s version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, “an integration between church and home.” Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children’s Bible. “Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys’ll like it, too,” he said on one video, winking. “We’re gonna do it Mars Hill–style.”
The point of Mars Hill Kids, Driscoll says, is continuity:
So that when the kids grow up, they don’t do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: “Well, I’m ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I’ve been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I’m going to join a community group: I’ve been in one since I’ve been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I’m okay with video because that’s what I’ve been doing for a really long time—so I’m an old-school, 18-year-old veteran.”
What does it mean that Driscoll imagines keeping people, who’ve been studying his Doctrine from the age of 2, in Mars Hill after high school? Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives? Or does he imagine that, in 20 years, Mars Hill churches will be everywhere?
Either way, Driscoll imagines his flock—the membership model, the community groups, the Doctrine—as permanent. Womb to tomb. Just as long as you don’t ask too many questions. 
This article has been updated since its original publication.
Hi all, this is “Lance” from the article – Thank you Brendan for such a well written article.
A comment on objectivity caught my eye, as I am a fan of the objective. As for bias – I agree, I do have bias, I am angry at the pastors who looked at me square in the face and said (paraphrased) Lance, I’m not sure you were ever a Christian to begin with. It’s not ok. But I am not angry to the extent of revenge via press release.
Here are some thoughts to add some objectivity – and I can’t help to be a little subjective either – sorry, I’m not perfect.
My involvement in this piece was, from my intent, to 1) seek some form of checks and balance system with the many pastors at Mars Hill – perhaps a humble pastor will see it and reconsider his position. 2) Encourage those who are going through similar circumstances as I was encouraged by Andrew’s – don’t worry, in Pastor Mark’s own words “It’s all about Jesus” and not about what a zealous pastor says. 3) to inform the public – even as a member, community group leader, and intern at Mars Hill Church I didn’t think the extent to which my situation was taken was possible – power defends itself at any cost, and to maintain power it can never be wrong. That is what I saw from 2 pastors – guys, if God gives something to you (leadership, power, cancer) there is no man on earth that can take it away by force, you need not defend it.
Now to play pastors advocate
I absolutely did sin. I stepped down from community group leadership because I got drunk and slept with a brides maid at my buddies wedding back in 2010, I submitted to God’s authority reported my behavior to the leadership that was over me, repented of my sin and moved on. There were a couple of meetings with pastors that were great for me personally, and I learned a ton about God’s grace through it all.
Since I was a kid I have had an affinity for pornography, in the last 8 years I decided that it was turning me into a man that I did not want to be, 8 years later, I still have not been able to entirely stop watching porn on the internet. I have been through extensive counseling and have several other guys that help me to quit for good. And all of this is in the context of “repentance” I hid nothing from friends and pastors, and there was a loving relationship. The pastors said that this is the reason that I could not date and they wanted me to live in victory until such a point that they deemed I was safe.
Pastors are called to be ”shepherds of their flocks”, and as far as any organization goes, people need to listen to their bosses, soldiers need to follow orders, someone has to make a final decision. No one is perfect; you or me or anyone is capable of making a bad decision – and our decisions effect everyone.
What’s the hang up then? – at the time life was good, porn had not been an issue for an extended period of time, my now fiancé knew of my struggles as well as her father, and they were both helping me and encouraging me through it. There was no reason for the judgment given by the pastor (break up with your girlfriend) – it started as counsel, when I refused the advice, it turned into unrepentant sin.
So what’s the point lance?
My point is that if you draw parallels between you and any other person, be it the president or the pastor, or the people, and honestly take it into deep consideration. You will find that you are no different; it is highly likely that you would display the same behavior and probably already have with your kids, siblings, parents, bosses, subordinates, peers, and even yourself. If you don’t believe this, I know two guys that you would get along with really well, they may even make you a fellow pastor someday.
So what then? Are we all self-righteous ass holes? Well….. yes. If we could ever have been perfect Jesus would not have had to die to save us from sin and death. He does it by grace, through faith…
The point is Humility – you are not always right, even if you think your position demands you to be. Examples are –war over nonexistent WMD’s, the crusades, soldiers being ordered to their deaths on bad intel, the Stanly Milgram experiments! God gives grace to the humble, but to the proud …. Lots of bad things (read a bible).
To the men at Mars Hill – REPENT! take a step back, while the word cult is strong for where you are now, it is the direction you are headed in. friends, brothers, judgment is what God does – we are not God, we are not a spiritual elite that can speak for God (the majority of us any way) – if you had to remove people from a “flock” for un repentant sin, you would not have a congregation. Fore sure if there is a child molester, wife beater, homophobic people hater, porn ring leader, or exploiter extraordinaire you should do something about it. But remember, Jesus came to seek and save the lost, he died for our sins that ANYONE who would accept him would be saved from an eternity of separation from him. And finally, look at Jesus’ example of leadership that he gives to the disciples; his pyramid of power is inverted.
To the readers – no one is perfect, at whichever point you condemn a person, you condemn yourself at the same point. the same goes in our court of laws with legal precidents. God has grace for all who sin and repent – even for those who don’t right away (our court system does not) Mars Hill does lots of good in the community, they support local business, they recycle, they donate huge quantities of money to food banks and other charitable organizations, and over all the point of their message is love – you just have to get past the strong punch lines and watch an entire series.
To fellow Christians – just as you would anyone else, encourage Mars Hill towards repentance, it is Gods kindness and grace that leads men and women towards repentance. Not an Iron fist or slander, or libel, or gossip
To my friends at Mars Hill – you know who I am, I love and miss you all, if I could still be there I would – we don’t leave a family when things go bad, we fix things. I am banned from Mars Hill and not allowed back without repentance. The specific thing I am called to repent for is not a sin, therefore I cannot repent of it. Remember romans 2:17-29. I’m getting married, you are all invited, watch the mail.
Ok, let’s have some fun – I love comments! Mash it up everyone, I can take a beating.
Two things.
Brendan, you are an amazing writer and thinker. I want you to write more features more often.
@51 is misinformed. There are power dynamics, this is true; there are unequal roles for women and men, children and adults, return missionaries and not, etc., this is true. However, what is untrue is a genuine comparison between “the [LDS] church” and Mars Hill in cultistic doctrinal and social regimes. While “the church” has unequal power distributions, the doctrine & application pale in comparison to MH.
Lance- i’m surprised they banned you without anyone wanting or expressing the desire to walk thru WITH you on your repentance…
Also- i love what you said about condemning “at whichever point you condemn a person, you condemn yourself at the same point.”
SO what is this article doing? It’s basically condemning Mars Hill Church as a whole. That means thousands and thousands of people are feeling the weight of this. No group of people wants to feel condemned like how this article is being played out. Yes, you bash the Mark Driscoll name, but what about the others who call this church ‘home’? You say you have friends that go there, but it sounds like you’ve just threw them under the bus. Think about all the other types of organized groups. GLSEN, Jewish, Muslim, Mormons, Young Life, Red Cross, Peace Core. ALL have flaws, so may agree or disagree with their core beliefs and systems, and I bet you could find someone who’s been hurt by their organization as well. Lance- i encourage you to address the issue again. You ask for them to be humble and respond and repent, if you give them a chance to do that, maybe they will. Get off your soap box and do something about it.
I went to high school with Mark Driscoll. He was a pompous douchenozzle then and as I have seen, has grown in a metastisizing douche of ultimate christofascist douchebaggery.
Funny thing: Mark’s older brother was a member of one of Seattle’s greatest underrated bands of all time, the Purdins.
@102 Lance-
I appreciate the invitation to your wedding but there is a problem – you are under church discipline and you have not repented for what you have done. I would like to get together, though, to talk about your situation in light of the gospel.
I agree with the elders’ decision regarding you because I see how they are acting in accordance to the Scriptures. They love you and I love you. We pray the Lord would grant you repentance so we can be family once again….until then, we can’t pretend nothing is wrong.
Sincerely-
Geraldo
“now i know what it feels like to be God…when HE’S holding a gun!” – Homer Simpson, holding his first gun.
This man needs the help of a new church like an alcoholic needs to find a new bar.
The issue for me was that I did not sin. There is no sin in me not breaking up with a girlfriend because a pastor told me to. I saw them define what a sin was on their own terms. By that logic they could potentially say that not drinking poisoned coolaid was a sin.
The issue for me was not doing something that I didn’t want to do. It was giving power to an abusive authority, if I agree to something small that I know is wrong, it will be easier to agree to a future bigger thing that is realy wrong.
Check out milgram’s studies
This organization seems capable of heading into Catholic territory. In order to get God’s forgiveness, you must go through an intermediary. If a priest believes you’ve sinned, you owe him the apology and he can decide your punishment. I know they’re not extreme, but I can see some connections.
@ 104. Nothing you said proves that I am misinformed. The point of my comment was not to prove which doctrine “Pale’s” in comparison with cultistic practices. It was strictly a warning that MH is heading into a similar path. The LDS church is well known for using clut like tactics to retain and discipline members and former members. If you’re a member in good standing you dont see these tactics and will blindly defend the church because they already have you under control. Just like MH…
FACT: The LDS church indoctrinates children at a young age. 4 years old.
FACT: MH wants to indoctrinate children at 2 years old.
FACT: The LDS church holds the man above women and children, then clergy above them all.
FACT: MH does the same.
FACT: The LDS church holds a view of God that is similar to that of MH.
Therefore your statement about me being misinformed holds no water. Also, If any of the pastors of MH are on a tax free payroll (as if it’s their day job) for the supposed “godly” work that they’re doing (LDS clergy do not recieve pay) then that is another indication to stay away. Men of God are not supposed to be rich, drive bmw’s or buy bling.
” That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children’s version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework”
————-
Sounds like a cult to me…..
I think @107 put a bow on Brendan’s article very nicely.
who the fuck gets into this stupid shit? i mean, this is like protestant right? a theology where basically the pope is not the medium between them and god. so then why would any other authority matter if you’ve already bucked the pope? and im being generous here because im atheist, but if you reject one all powerful medium then reject the rest and have your own relationship w god.
i feel like this is for the people that get into self-help and ex-junkies etc.
@103: I like this quote from Marcus Aurelius. It strikes me as a wonderful reversal on that predestination idea.
@102: They really did a number on you regarding masturbation. The issue you’re being “counseled” on (eye roll) sounds more like masturbation, not porn consumption; that’s just an aid for the masturbation. Porn is not an inherently destructive force on society. If so, Japan (as an obvious example) would have torn itself apart centuries ago. The religious fundies in this country and around the world merely stage it as a societal illness to reframe the argument, when it’s all really about guilting you into submitting yourself to their authority (and, ultimately, their control). As someone who has received so much backlash over a single drunken hookup, I’m amazed that you can’t see the value in masturbation as a harmless release for sexual tension that might otherwise lead to more disastrous consequences.
And… “porn ring leader?” Seriously? Is that what you call the head of a porn production company? I guess you could, but then I reserve the right to refer to a priest/pastor/whatever as an “exploiter extraordinaire.”
So much of this article reminds me of the non-alien stuff I’ve read about Scientology: the behavioral contracts, the personal lives being subjected to church oversight, the banishment/harrassment combo served up to former members, etc. And then there are the multiple near-identical comments from the MH church members here. The extreme control over members’ lives coupled with the lock-step groupthink demonstrated here does give the church the appearance of a cult.
All these bland platitudes about providing ‘balance’ from a bunch of brainwashed cultists. Has it not occurred to free thinkers that you have a forum, right here, to provide that ‘balance’? Fire away, give us examples contradicting ANYTHING in this piece.
I’ll give you a few minutes so you can ask that raging closet case you call a leader what to say now.
I’d say 5 years ago I’d be fist-pumping with this article and say “Yeah! You get that cult!” It would’ve helped me belive what I already belived by sharing a sentiment With people who have had bad experiences with religion and Christians, or atleast as perceived in the news or on TV.
However, I started questioning this Jesus character and it really itched me that he himself said, as recorded in what some call a historical document,, “I am God. You have refused to belive it all your life. but I’m going to die in your place so you dont get the punishment you rightfully deserve for not loving the thing who made you and loves you more than you’ll ever understand.”
I went to an acts 29 church, ready to object. I got invited out for coffee by a member. We talked. He was extremely polite, expressed his beliefs, and listened to mine. And then he politely asked me to see where my ideas didn’t match up with what Jesus said. The guy said–you eventually have to make a decision. Either Jesus was who he said he was, or he wasn’t. How do you know if he is or not? And Is it a question worth asking?
This acts 29 church fellow had me and my girlfriend over for dinner with his wife. They cooked for us. Took care of us. They showed us who Jesus was and is. And if they truly belived he was God, why wouldn’t they tell me? If Jesus was God and I didn’t belive it, there was a chance for consequence. Isn’t it better to put yourself out for criticism and tell a friend they may be wrong about something that could jeopardize their well-being?
I lead and serve in an acts 29 church now and belive Jesus, the historical figure who did exist was who he said he was. My church is not perfect. Only God is, and with His help we try and stick to his example and serve people like Jesus did, who “came not to be served, but to serve.”
Go to Mars Hill or any other church that tries hard to stick to what Jesus said. Meet someone. Find out for yourself if they are as bad as this adticle says they are. Invite them to coffee. Be bold and figure out if this Jesus guy is who he said he is or not. If not, not a whole lot will change. If so, everything will change, and I think you will be glad for it.
@120: So you’re saying you’re willing to believe something because someone bought you coffee and made you dinner? In six paragraphs, that’s the only reason you offered to explain what persuaded you to change your mind 5 years ago.
@102
If you just would have listened to pastor Mark’s recommendations, bro, this wouldn’t have gone down this way:
“Be assured that you can be cured of your difficulty. Many have been, both male and female, and you can be also if you determine that it must be so.
This determination is the first step. That is where we begin. You must decide that you will end this practice, and when you make that decision, the problem will be greatly reduced at once.
But it must be more than a hope or a wish, more than knowing that it is good for you. It must be actually a DECISION. If you truly make up your mind that you will be cured, then you will have the strength to resist any tendencies which you may have and any temptations which may come to you.
After you have made this decision, then observe the following specific guidelines:
A Guide to Self-Control:
1. Never touch the intimate parts of your body except during normal toilet processes.
2. Avoid being alone as much as possible. Find good company and stay in this good company.
3. If you are associated with other persons having this same problem, YOU MUST BREAK OFF THEIR FRIENDSHIP. Never associate with other people having the same weakness. Don’t suppose that two of you will quit together, you never will. You must get away from people of that kind. Just to be in their presence will keep your problem foremost in your mind. The problem must be taken OUT OF YOUR MIND for that is where it really exists. Your mind must be on other and more wholesome things.
4. When you bathe, do not admire yourself in a mirror. Never stay in the bath more than five or six minutes — just long enough to bathe and dry and dress AND THEN GET OUT OF THE BATHROOM into a room where you will have some member of your family present.
5. When in bed, if that is where you have your problem for the most part, dress yourself for the night so securely that you cannot easily touch your vital parts, and so that it would be difficult and time consuming for you to remove those clothes. By the time you started to remove protective clothing you would have sufficiently controlled your thinking that the temptation would leave you.
6. If the temptation seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK, even if it is in the middle of the night, and even if you are not hungry, and despite your fears of gaining weight. The purpose behind this suggestion is that you GET YOUR MIND ON SOMETHING ELSE. You are the subject of your thoughts, so to speak.
7. Never read pornographic material. Never read about your problem. Keep it out of mind. Remember — “First a thought, then an act.”
The thought pattern must be changed. You must not allow this problem to remain in your mind. When you accomplish that, you soon will be free of the act.
8. Put wholesome thoughts into your mind at all times. Read good books –Church books — Scriptures — Sermons of the Brethern. Make a daily habit of reading at least one chapter of Scripture, preferably from one of the four Gospels in the New Testament, or a Richard Simmons book. The four Gospels — Matthew, Mark, Luke and John — above anything else in the Bible can be helpful because of their uplifting qualities.
9. Pray. But when you pray, don’t pray about this problem, for that will tend to keep [it] in your mind more than ever. Pray for faith, pray for understanding of the Scriptures, pray for the Missionaries, the General Authorities, your friends, your families, BUT KEEP THE PROBLEM OUT OF YOUR MIND BY NOT MENTIONING IT EVER — NOT IN CONVERSATION WITH OTHERS, NOT IN YOUR PRAYERS. KEEP IT _OUT_ of your mind! The attitude of a person toward his problem has an affect on how easy it is to overcome. It is essential that a firm commitment be made to control the habit. As a person understands his reasons for the behavior, and is sensitive to the conditions or situations that may trigger a desire for the act, he develops the power to control it.
As one meets with his Priesthood Leader, a program for overcoming masturbation can be implemented using some of these suggestions. Remember it is essential that a regular report program be agreed on, so progress can be recognized and failures understood and eliminated.
Suggestions:
1. Pray daily, ask for the gifts of the Spirit, that which will strengthen you against temptation. Pray fervently and out loud when the temptations are the strongest.
2. Follow a program of vigorous daily exercise. The exercises reduce emotional tension and depression and are absolutely basic to the solution of this problem. Double your physical activity when you feel stress increasing.
3. When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell STOP to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind and then recite a prechosen Scripture or sing an inspirational hymn. It is important to turn your thoughts away from the selfish need to indulge.
4. Set goals of abstinence, begin with a day, then a week,month, year and finally commit to never doing it again. Until you commit yourself to never again you will always be open to temptation.
5. Change in behavior and attitude is most easily achieved through a changed self-image. Spend time every day imagining yourself strong and in control, easily overcoming tempting situations.
6. Begin to work daily on a self-improvement program. Relate this plan to improving your Church service, to improving your relationships with your family, God and others. Strive to enhance your strengths and talents.
7. Be outgoing and friendly. Force yourself to be with others and learn to enjoy working and talking to them. Use principles of developing friendships found in books such as How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
8. Be aware of situations that depress you or that cause you to feel lonely, bored, frustrated or discouraged. These emotional states can trigger the desire to masturbate as a way of escape. Plan in advance to counter these low periods through various activities, such as reading a book, visiting a friend, doing something athletic, etc.
9. Make a pocket calendar for a month on a small card. Carry it with you, but show it to no one. If you have a lapse of self control, color the day black. Your goal will be to have no black days. The calendar becomes a strong visual reminder of self control and should be looked at when you are tempted to add another black day. Keep your calendar up until you have at least three clear months.
10. A careful study will indicate you have had the problem at certain times and under certain conditions. Try and recall, in detail, what your particular times and conditions were. Now that you understand how it happens, plan to break the pattern through counter activities.
11. In the field of psychotherapy there is a very effective technique called aversion therapy. When we associate or think of something very distasteful with something which has been pleasurable, but undesirable, the distasteful thought and feeling will begin to cancel out that which was pleasurable. If you associate something very distasteful with your loss of self-control it will help you to stop the act. For example, if you are tempted to masturbate, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms, and eat several of them as you do the act.
12. During your toileting and shower activities leave the bathroom door or shower curtain partly open, to discourage being alone in total privacy. Take cool brief showers.
13. Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity.
14. Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring.
15. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night.
16. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.
17. Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement.
18. It is sometimes helpful to have a physical object to use in overcoming this problem. A Book of Mormon,firmly held in hand, even in bed at night has proven helpful in extreme cases.
19. In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.
20. Set up a reward system for your successes. It does not have to be a big reward. A quarter in a receptacle each time you overcome or reach a goal. Spend it on something which delights you and will be a continuing reminder of your progress.
21. Do not let yourself return to any past habit or attitude patterns which were part of your problem. Satan Never Gives Up. Be calmly and confidently on guard. Keep a positive mental attitude. You can win this fight! The joy and strength you will feel when you do will give your whole life a radiant and spiritual glow of satisfaction and fulfillment.
@122
You’re so clearly missing the point here and your language reinvigorates the worries many of us have of an authoritarian cult taking root in our back yards. Look what you wrote. Look how you start:
“If you just would have listened to pastor Mark’s recommendations…”
Therein lies your danger and non-agency. This isn’t about masturbation or porn or kissing or sleeping in too late or swearing. This is about power and control.
The problem is how the power within the church’s authoritarian structure is obtained, maintained, employed, and abused. It’s in the unquestioning obedience that is demanded without justification other than power.
If you’re in it as deep as you seem, you probably can’t see the dysfunctional dynamic that you’re a naive part of.
Happily the Wedgwood branch closed. Hail the NE Seattle heathens!
The thing that strikes me most about Mars Hill is that it was created & is led by one of the strangest of the evanglical preachers. I mean, in terms of his outsized ego, his bizarre pronouncements – about women, gays, masturbation?!? etc etc – he fits right in with the batshitiest of the wingnuts, including Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Robert Schuller & on & on.
I think the best analogy is Ted Haggard …a closeted gay homophobe, hiding behind a wife & bunch of kids (oh, they’ll never suspect i’m gay!) who spews hatred in the guise of biblical wisdom. No straight man who is secure in his own sexuality feels the need to continually expend such negative energy toward gays. Time after time these extreme homophobes have been exposed for what they are.
‘Mark’ my words, one of these days we’ll hear from a young guy who attended a Mars Hill ‘male bonding’ event, and who was propositioned by Mark Driscoll. In the meantime, would-be new-age religious hipsters continue to drink in the poison spewed by this weird charlatan.
@123 Do you think @122 was serious? I thought it was a very long winded parody…
@122 “Book of Mormon.” I’ve been had! Poe’s law.
Everything about this is unbelievable and sad. Your future father in law knows about your porn & masterbation?! There is something wrong with either of those? You got drunk and had sex? God Damn you’re going straight to hell. Any person, group or doctrine that demands shame on you for things consenting adults do together- even if they are a mistake (that you likely learned your Own lesson from) is abusive and wrong… I’d like to acknowledge the other MH posters and supporters in this post, forgiving that they are likely products of the red counties we support, but ignore like step children, and remind readers of the study linked earlier this week regarding IQ, religion and social conservatism. If I prayed, it’d be for you, brother.
Way back when I was in college we had an offshoot of the Boston Church of Christ running around that was using some of the identical tactics — appeals to discipline, pressure, shunning — under the name of “discipling.” In fact, the story above sounded so similar I did a double-take.
I’ve been a member of several churches over the years, some of which people are familiar with for being “conservative” or “evangelical” or “EEVL EEVL HOMOPHOBES.” At no point in any of these churches was there ever, ever anything like what happened above (or what I saw with the Church of Christ). No demands for authority over others, no 300-point plans for redemption, no shunning. And even in Reformed churches you never see this.
It’s the Appeal To Authority that’s all screwed up here. There’s a lot of emphasis on Men being Lord Of The Household. There’s a lot of emphasis on Pastors being Lord Of The Flock. There doesn’t seem to be much on Jesus being Lord Of All. If anything, Jesus is being used as an excuse to bully and browbeat people into submission.
This isn’t a healthy environment. This is sounding awfully cult-like. I really doubt Mark Driscoll has a rentboy or a bag of coke, but he drives on power — absolute power — and his hangers-on in leadership feed on weakness to stay in his good graces. And dictators, ultimately, fall the moment they prove to be weak. God have mercy on the flock then, because the rending of a 10K person church will be one miserable sight to behold.
rule 22… Die of humiliation. you know the most effective thing that has helped so far? just moving on. I spend more time doing the things that I should be doing, and less time worrying about the things I don’t want to do. I could have a masters degree with the time, effort, and money I have spent focusing on trying to stop. speaking of which, thats probably the field of work I’m going to get into – helping people without making them feel like crap.
by the way, covanent eyes is an awesome web filter program, microsoft has a free one for those who perfer more control over their filter, but covanent is the easiest.
cheers 124
Mars Hill People.. tell me, with all the truth that Jesus tells you to speak, that you would want your deepest darkest secrets spilled for all the congregation to know. Suppose “Andrew” did do those things with the women. I work with a mentally ill population that goes to church, and “inappropriate” and “women” is like our Sunday litany. The pastors contact us, tell us what’s going down, and outline what the “rules” will be, which have sometimes included a person not being able to go to service unchaperoned. Only people in the congregation who “need to know” are told about what is going on. The entire congregation continues to welcome these members with open arms, and treat them like brothers in Christ. They don’t make treatment plans; that’s MY job, and I can’t imagine how you think shaming is going to make someone change.
Tell me, truthfully, that you have NOTHING to hide, nothing at all, and you would love for the church to come in and “audit” your life.
Hello American people, I am a foreign tourist traveling the west coast and I casually read this article and followed by reading the comments here in. I will not say which country I come from but I will say I am from Europe. This article and subject I find interesting because you have so many religious leaders in your culture. It is truly amazing how many of these people are self appointed. It seems that one merely declares I CAN HEAR GOD IS SPEAKING INSIDE MY HEAD and this is all the qualification a person needs TO have THE greatest influence over the lives of many American citizens. What is more amazing is how careful your choosing of a political leader as we see underway in the republican debates. These men who want to be your president are so carefully and thoroughly examined by the public it is truly an incredible site to behold. One mistake from these political candidates and he/she is disqualified forever ! Why do you not apply the same principles to your religious leaders ?? Can you imagine them standing on a stage forced to debate and answer questions from a real public audience ?? hahaha, Surely they would have to be divine anointed to endure such pressure. Yet, when they are in your pulpits they are infallible experts on every subject. This MHC is another example of how you Americans seem to forget your own constitution and what is written in very first amendment bill of rights. This pastor has absolutely no authority over you or anyone attending his church except the authority you give him. He cannot command you in any way, shape or form. And he cannot bestow heaven upon you. If he could he would be the most famous man in the world and every president and prime minister would seek him. When you cross the door to his church you do so voluntarily and you can leave voluntarily any time you wish. All his threats and curses on you are hollow bluffs designed to frighten you like a small child. Religion only works when everyone in the room is religious. Americans, you can be more mature.
@134
Some very good points, some new to me. Thank you.
That’s interesting, because I’ve heard stories of people who were disciplined/booted out of other churches that then showed up at Mars Hill and became leaders instantly.
I’ve went to 6 churches in my life as a regular-attending member. 3 of them were either exactly like this or on the fast track to becoming like it. This never questioning the authority crap is exactly what gets churches in this weird cultish behavior in the first place. It’s a quench for power that is never satiated.
Something that I find interesting is that most conservative Christians are so full intent on making sure that the government doesn’t control them, which is well and fine. But they can’t even see it their own church leaders do it in the name of Christ.
About 5 years ago or so an ex-girlfriend decided to start attending Mars Hill with the intention of eventually writing a book about the attraction of mega churches to people in their twenties, a generation considered to be faithless overall. We were both avowed non-believers but were fascinated by those who did believe. We attended the weekly services in Ballard, joined their new weekly bible study group which was being held at the church, and even became friends with one of the pastors and went to his house for dinner with his young family. The further we dug into the church the more creepy things came to light. After a shitty breakup the book fell to the wayside and was swept away with the other detritus of our failed relationship. I’m glad someone has finally had the balls to tell the public about their creepy controlling ways. We were told that if we became members of the church (something we had no intention of doing) we would have to declare our intentions to marry within six months or be forced to separate. Good job Stranger and thanks to Andrew and Lance for their courage.
I meant to say “an ex-girlfriend and I” oops.
Mark Driscoll is a business man, plain and simple. He’s packaged up some conservative ideas (mainly coming from the New Testament, which ironically is now under the scrutiny of some biblical scholars http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/13&hellip😉 and has sold them to Seattle hipsters. As with any other commodity, you decide if you wanna buy it. And as with business, where you were once a customer, they will try to earn back your business. Ultimately, you decide what you do and don’t buy AND how you feel about the transaction.
Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians states
2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I didn’t come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 2:4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 2:5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Unpopular as it may be to start an opinion with scripture from a book that most of our city does not put stock in, here, for your viewing pleasure, is one of the many scriptures that I hope might throw some caution to the members of Mars Hill Church.
Mr. Kiley’s article has been rumbling around in my belly for days. All of the expected outrage of a former Christian turned progressive liberal had to quell before I could begin to identify the true nature of my anger. Thus identified, my anger stems from this: New Testament Christianity, at its core, is a celebration of the empowered, individual pursuit of Christ and his teachings enabled through Christ’s chosen sacrifice, a celebration that requires no totalitarian middle man making declarative statements and writing oppressive doctrine and curriculum.
Reading the disturbing accounts of the gross misuse of “church authority” exerted on its members provided by the former members of Driscoll’s church forced to my mind a simple question. What about free will? If they are, as claimed, a bible-believing congregation, then why must they be so heavily guarded from the people they are supposed to be proselytizing? Why must they be coddled with doctrine-specific curriculum and ecclesiastically binding membership contracts? Mr. Driscoll, don’t you trust your flock to hear the voice of God themselves? Or was the curtain in the temple, rent at Christ’s death, only the introduction of the Holy Spirit for you alone? I believe that Joseph Smith has already walked this dangerous road; the Mormon religion is still trying to reform past the blind submission it gave Smith and Brigham Young on the celestial marriage issue.
Every morning, I pass the homeless tent city sponsored by the folks at SPU. Here, the students and faculty at that college are able to decide, of their own accord, to follow Christ’s teachings and serve their fellow man. And they do—from what I understand it is an incredibly successful project that protects many souls from our chilled Seattle winter nights. How different is this then from the “Mars Hill house” Lance lived and worked tirelessly, separated from anyone not of the church, his work going for the good of the church but for no one outside of it?
To the members of this church: Be empowered. You have a powerful set of teachings that have the ability to enable great good in the world. This man Driscoll is telling you not to think for yourselves, not to engage thoughtfully with the very words that you believe Christ died to make true for you. Driscoll wants you to hear him, and only him, as his Sunday big-screen broadcasts to all of his satellite churches make perfectly clear. But Paul tells you, and the Corinthians, this, “4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us.” You, in your beliefs, have a direct line to Christ. Don’t let Driscoll convince you of the need to continue buying his priestly indulgences.
Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians states
2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I didn’t come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 2:4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 2:5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Unpopular as it may be to start an opinion with scripture from a book that most of our city does not put stock in, here, for your viewing pleasure, is one of the many scriptures that I hope might throw some caution to the members of Mars Hill Church.
Mr. Kiley’s article has been rumbling around in my belly for days. All of the expected outrage of a former Christian turned progressive liberal had to quell before I could begin to identify the true nature of my anger. Thus identified, my anger stems from this: New Testament Christianity, at its core, is a celebration of the empowered, individual pursuit of Christ and his teachings enabled through Christ’s chosen sacrifice, a celebration that requires no totalitarian middle man making declarative statements and writing oppressive doctrine and curriculum.
Reading the disturbing accounts of the gross misuse of “church authority” exerted on its members provided by the former members of Driscoll’s church forced to my mind a simple question. What about free will? If they are, as claimed, a bible-believing congregation, then why must they be so heavily guarded from the people they are supposed to be proselytizing? Why must they be coddled with doctrine-specific curriculum and ecclesiastically binding membership contracts? Mr. Driscoll, don’t you trust your flock to hear the voice of God themselves? Or was the curtain in the temple, rent at Christ’s death, only the introduction of the Holy Spirit for you alone? I believe that Joseph Smith has already walked this dangerous road; the Mormon religion is still trying to reform past the blind submission it gave Smith and Brigham Young on the celestial marriage issue.
Every morning, I pass the homeless tent city sponsored by the folks at SPU. Here, the students and faculty at that college are able to decide, of their own accord, to follow Christ’s teachings and serve their fellow man. And they do—from what I understand it is an incredibly successful project that protects many souls from our chilled Seattle winter nights. How different is this then from the “Mars Hill house” Lance lived and worked tirelessly, separated from anyone not of the church, his work going for the good of the church but for no one outside of it?
To the members of this church: Be empowered. You have a powerful set of teachings that have the ability to enable great good in the world. This man Driscoll is telling you not to think for yourselves, not to engage thoughtfully with the very words that you believe Christ died to make true for you. Driscoll wants you to hear him, and only him, as his Sunday big-screen broadcasts to all of his satellite churches make perfectly clear. But Paul tells you, and the Corinthians, this, “4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us.” You, in your beliefs, have a direct line to Christ. Don’t let Driscoll convince you of the need to continue buying his priestly indulgences.
YES @15. Exactly.
This is my neighborhood and been watching this church and it’s leader closely for about a decade. This is not my Christianity.
Basically anyone who wants to create a separation between you and your family and friends… well, there are clinical diagnosis’s for people who do this to other people. It’s a sickness, a disease, a lust for power over others. Fascist is a good word too.
If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times; “This man will go down in flames, mark my word.” Of course I’ve ben saying it for years and years and years…
#120: Wow, it’s like you lifted that story right out of the evangelical handbook for evangelism. If that’s all it took for you to change your mind, please don’t breed. Seriously.
I am an atheist and the church culture is as foreign to me as subsistence living is to Mitt Romney.
So forgive me if I ask those on this comments section who have been affiliated with MH church an obvious question but I just have to know:
Did not the fact that Driscoll wrote a book called: “Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe” not immediately clue you in to the size of the guy’s ego and need to control?
This is a serious question. I cannot fathom why anyone would be arrogant enough to write a 463-page tome telling everyone what Christians “should” believe. I also cannot fathom why anyone would want to get involved, particularly in an explicitly submissive relationship, with a guy who writes books like that.
So what’s the deal? How could anyone enounter Driscoll and not be instantly turned off?
I went to Mars Hill regularly for 1.5 years. After every sermon, I felt ashamed for the sin I committed. Thus, I joined a community group to better myself. I realized that I never became a Christian and I asked non-Christian questions such as “Why did God even create the forbidden fruit?” I had Mars Hill people yell at me for that for not having faith. I eventually left the church, but they didn’t leave me.
I regulary went to Mars Hill U-district branch for 1.5 years. During that time, I realized that I wasn’t actually Christian even though I was raised that way. Thus, I joined a community group to better myself. As I went to these community groups, I would bring up questions such as “why did God create the forbidden fruit?”. I got yelled at for not having faith. I left the church, but they didn’t leave me
Lance-MH,
Hi…I am Sophia, keeper of the marshillrefuge.blogspot.com blog…And I hear you. I don’t know if you have read our story but we did not sin either. We just wanted to go elsewhere.
I am glad you saw MH for what it is…I will link to your story on our blog. If you would like to guest post, please email me.
My post on the Mars Hill church discipline abuse scandal, for those interested: ‘Mars Hill Seattle, and the Problem of Insulated Churches’
http://brokentelegraph.com/2012/01/30/ma…
This article has a lot of good points, and also blows alot out of proportion. I go to Mars Hill, but I for sure don’t agree with everything Mark Driscoll says. If you actually believe every little inference Mark Driscoll makes, then you’re placing your faith in a “person,” not Jesus. Mars Hill is very passionate and convicted about everything they. Because of that, unfortunately we’re still passionate even when we’re wrong. So when people are called out on their sin, we’re sometimes sinfully very passionate about our pride.
I know all the instances talked about above, and they had nothing to do what the people were actually arguing about, they had to do with the state of the person’s heart. The people who were kicked out of membership were being proud, stubborn, and not even considering what the staff above them were trying to say. If they had dealt with their problems with the church in a loving, christ-like way, then I have faith that they could have worked something out and these problems would have been avoided.
All in all, Mars Hill ain’t perfect, it’s a god inspired, man made institution, and the problem is that once man enters the picture, things get fucked up. It’s not a cult! I go to UW, I’m gonna be a doctor someday, and I’m a completely normal kid with normal experiences.
Peace!
@Matholamew
” If they had dealt with their problems with the church in a loving, christ-like way, then I have faith that they could have worked something out and these problems would have been avoided.”
I’m very sorry you do not see the error in that statement.
@Matholamew
My question is, were you there in those meetings with the CGL, or pastor?
I am one of the people mentioned in the article, and I was loving. Even when I got the horrible email. It is exactly the blind attitude you have that believes the leadership handled it well and anyone who tells their story is guilty of the sin of pride or rebellion or not agreeing with us or questioning or not being Reformed enough or not letting some young, arrogant kid who thinks he is Pastor Mark tell us whether or not we are hearing from God and rightly interpreting the scripture.
The funny thing is that MH members will defend this, until it happens to them. And when or if it does, please know, you are welcome to the refuge, we will love you (even if you sinned), we will introduce you to GRACE (not Driscoll), and we will tell your story, without judgment. I am glad you are happy at MH, but just because you have had a good experience, it doesn’t necessarily invalidate others bad experiences.
There is a great post: http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs…
Lance~
I am glad you told your story! I linked it at marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
Come visit us anytime, and if you would like to guest post…email me…The address is at the website!
Sophia
I’m a deacon at Mars Hill and have been a member of the church for eight years. Because the names of the people interviewed in this article have been omitted, and the accused haven’t been provided the opportunity to respond, I can’t comment on those cases specifically. That said, I don’t doubt that some of these accounts are probably true.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don’t like the rules, don’t join. There are leaders in the church I don’t agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I’ll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being “team players”, or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don’t see the Stranger writing articles entitled “Software company or cult?”
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.