What should you do if a police officer stops you on the street on your way home from a bar or club and demands to know where you’ve been drinking?

Don’t tell them.

We wanted to tell you to lie—to tell them you had beers at home, or to say you were drinking in a bar that no longer exists, like Manray, Kincora, or Sugar—but that would be illegal. Deliberately lying to a police officer is false reporting, and that’s a crime, so you shouldn’t do it. We would be technically obstructing justice if we told you to lie, which is why we’re not telling you to lie.

But you don’t have to answer the question, and you shouldn’t answer the question.

Earlier this month, the office of City Attorney Tom Carr warned Capitol Hill bar owners that police will approach apparently intoxicated pedestrians, ask them where they’ve been drinking, and try to shut down any bars they name. Many bar owners claim that menacing police patrols have already begun and that Carr’s latest crackdown appears to be politically motivated.

Bar and club owners have united to oust Carr—who is up for reelection after eight year in office—because Carr has protested liquor licenses, imposed onerous restrictions on upstanding businesses, and, most infamously, was a leading force in an aggressive 2007 anti-nightlife sting called Operation Sobering Thought. A campaign of organized harassment that cost the city tens of thousands of dollars, Operation Sobering Thought resulted in zero convictions and sparked an avalanche of bad press for Carr’s office.

Walking past the bars that line Pike and Pine streets, you can’t miss the campaign signs for Carr’s challenger, Pete Holmes. A police-accountability advocate, Holmes is an attorney who has practiced in Seattle for 24 years. Neumos on 10th Avenue and Pike Street has two billboard-sized banners for Holmes. Havana, across the street, held a benefit for Holmes this month, and so did the Crocodile in Belltown.

On October 6, about 40 bar and club owners attended a meeting in the Seattle Police Department’s East Precinct headquarters. The monthly meetings, which have a history of constructive dialogue with law enforcement, have served as a monthly check-in to collaborate on ways to keep the nightlife scene safe. But this meeting was different.

Tienney Milnor is the East Precinct city attorney liaison for Carr’s office. According to numerous people who attended the meeting, Milnor accused the bars of being responsible for a rising trend of assaults and robberies on Capitol Hill. People are being overserved, she reportedly said, and then assaulting and robbing people when they leave the bars. Carr, reached by phone after the meeting, repeated Milnor’s claim that there is a problem with overservice and associated violence near the clubs on Capitol Hill. “I believe bars that serve alcohol and push people out on the street who are intoxicated bear some responsibility for what those people do, especially in circumstances of overservice,” he said.

At the meeting, Milnor warned that police will begin patrolling the streets of Capitol Hill looking for visibly intoxicated people, asking where they’ve been drinking, and keeping tabs on those bars. (Remember: If you are approached, don’t answer.) The city would be working with the Washington State Liquor Control Board to issue citations, take away licenses, and shut down any bars that were named.

“She said it three or four different times that… we would lose our licenses,” says Mike Meckling, owner of Neumos and Moe Bar, who attended the meeting. “We haven’t had problems with overservice, we haven’t been cited for anything.”

The pitch of Milnor’s tirade then sharpened, according to Meckling and nearly a dozen other people who attended the meeting.

“The next thing she said that blew people away is how angry she would be if she were prosecuting some guy that had shot his wife after getting drunk in one of our bars,” says Meckling, who is also president of the Seattle Nightlife and Music Association. “At one point, she called for a raise of hands for who wanted their licenses taken away,” Meckling says. “It’s like, could this be more patronizing?”

“They were looking at us like we are not legitimate, above-the-board businesses,” says Jeff Ofelt, a co-owner of the Cha Cha and King’s Hardware, “like we’re doing something criminal.” He also confirms Milnor’s threat: “If there was a fight a mile away, they were going to trace it back to the bar they were drinking at, which seems absurd.”

Ofelt is right. It is absurd to link bars to a spike in assaults and robberies on Capitol Hill, because assaults and robberies on Capitol Hill aren’t rising.

They’re going down.

Crime statistics from the Seattle Police Department, which track crimes monthly and are broken down by police beat, disprove the claims being made by Carr’s office. Comparing the most recent three-month period for which data is available—May through July of 2009—to the same three-month period last year shows no spike in assaults or robberies. In the three beats that include the Pike/Pine corridor and much of Capitol Hill and First Hill—within roughly a mile of all the bars in question—assaults dropped from 121 in 2008 to 119 in 2009. Robberies dropped from 23 to 21. Assaults and robberies are down or flat across all of Capitol Hill. Those aren’t significant declines, but they demonstrate the claims being made by Carr’s office are false.

When specifically asked where their figures are coming from, Milnor said, “This is just a general overview of what officers are seeing… I don’t have the exact dates.”

“She’s in the fucking city attorney’s office making policy in the East Precinct, and she doesn’t know the crime stats that she’s basing policy on?” says David Meinert, a nightlife advocate and producer of the Capitol Hill Block Party.

To find out what the police might be “seeing,” I called the SPD four times and asked for any accounts of overservice being linked to violent crime near the bars and clubs on Capitol Hill. The first officer I spoke to told me that the crime statistics I had were the only reliable data. (“Those are the facts.”) When asked if there was any anecdotal evidence of crime related to these bars—anything that would support Carr and Milnor’s claims—the officer told me that “anecdotes are inconclusive.” Each time I called police, I asked to speak to an officer in the East Precinct familiar with bar-related violence. Each time, officers said they would call back. In five days, no officers returned calls with alternative crime data or information about crime on Capitol Hill.

Milnor insists that the bar owners who attended the meeting are collectively experiencing “confusion” about her remarks. After Meckling sent a sharply worded e-mail to the mayor’s office, Milnor sent out an e-mail clarifying her position. “The city and specifically the East Precinct has not made any policy changes regarding the drinking establishments,” she wrote. But she cited a rise in assaults and robberies in her e-mail, the supposed “spike” that remains uncorroborated by data or the SPD. She also said that, in addition to concerns of drunk people perpetrating offenses, drunk people can be targeted for crime because they are incapacitated. Carr said that her “clarification” was intended to “make it absolutely clear that we want people to not overserve, to check IDs, and to not do anything that they’re not supposed to do. It’s not in anybody’s interest to have violence up on Capitol Hill.”

Milnor confirmed in her conversation with me that officers will be stopping and questioning visibly intoxicated people. Officers will ask, says Milnor, “Where have you been? Where are you going?” (Once again: You don’t have to answer those questions.)

“To assume that the drunk person even knows what you’re asking them—if they’re so drunk—is a bad assumption,” argues Meinert. “If I’m drinking at Joe’s Bar, and I leave and get stopped by the police and they ask me where I have been drinking, I’m probably not going to tell them Joe’s Bar,” he adds. “Because I like Joe’s Bar. Instead, I’m going to tell them I was somewhere else—maybe a bar I don’t like.”

As for her threats to shut down bars, Milnor says no new sting is under way. “It’s a matter of understanding what the ramifications are, but I don’t think I really went into that. I said we don’t want to have to cite people.”

But since the meeting with Milnor, police officers have been harassing bars on Capitol Hill, according to witnesses. “I’ve always had nothing but a great experience with [the SPD] until this last couple weeks,” says one bar owner, who asked not to be named for fear of retribution. “We were right at capacity on a weekend night. Two officers came in. They were making threats about calling other city department heads to come in.” The bar owner says he hadn’t exceeded capacity limits. But he was concerned that “constant harassment” would lead him to “shut down,” he says. “They make it hard enough [to run a nightclub] as it is, to make it harder seems impossible.”

“There have been increased visits in the last week since the meeting at the East Precinct,” says another bar owner, who also asked to remain anonymous. “More importantly, the tone of the visits has changed. They are more menacing and more confrontational. And this all coincides with the nightlife community’s support of Pete Holmes.”

Bar owners are rightly concerned about a nightlife crackdown tainted by political overtones. In 2007, Carr and the Seattle Police Department conducted Operation Sobering Thought one week before the city council was set to vote on strict new legislation to regulate nightclubs. Police claimed that two dozen people either illegally served minors or let undercover officers who didn’t have valid ID into bars. But the campaign was widely considered overzealous and sloppy. Among the follies, police jailed a bar employee for 11 hours, allegedly for serving a drink to a drunk man—which would be considered overservice—but the Seattle Times wrote that the police report indicates that the bartender “poured him a glass of water.” Carr charged the bartenders and doormen who were arrested with gross misdemeanors, punishable by a year in jail, but not a single case resulted in a conviction.

After Operation Sobering Thought was slammed in the press, Mayor Greg Nickels opened a dialogue between city hall and club owners. Carr offered plea agreements for lesser charges to 17 of the defendants, most of whom had no criminal history, Carr says. For nearly a year, police have been polite, say club owners, and meetings at the East Precinct headquarters have been constructive and cordial. But the tone shifted after Nickels lost the primary election.

“This is Tom Carr’s office being vindictive about nightlife,” says Meinert. “It looks like a political calculation. At the beginning of this race, Carr tried to reach out to the music community and get our support. People pretty much said, hands down, we don’t trust him—we need to get someone new in there.”

For his part, Carr insists bar owners are targeting him.

“How many people have you heard from?” Carr asked, when I told him that numerous bar owners were disconcerted by the threats made by Milnor. “And how many [of those people] have had fundraisers for my opponent?”

Carr says he wouldn’t launch a politically motivated campaign against the clubs because they are campaigning for his opponent.

“Why would I want to stir this pot right now?” Carr asks. “That makes no sense whatsoever.”

Here’s what makes no sense: Carr’s office claims, with no data to back it up (the data, again, contradicts Carr’s office), that there’s a growing problem with overservice in bars and clubs, leading to violence. But one week before the East Precinct meeting where Milnor threatened the club owners, Carr defended Operation Sobering Thought to the Stranger Election Control Board by claiming the effort had led to a lasting decrease in overservice and alcohol-related violence. “The success that I measured was things calmed down,” Carr said in September. Just last week, when discussing Operation Sobering Thought, Carr said, “Maybe checking the IDs, doing a better job of [avoiding] overservice, and searching for weapons has limited some of the problems, which is what we were hoping for.”

It also made no sense for Carr and the SPD to launch Operation Sobering Thought right before the city council was to vote on nightlife legislation in 2007. The sting effectively sabotaged the bill—Nickels vetoed it under rising pressure from the media and nightlife advocates that the sting was a political ploy.

Is this another terribly timed political stunt?

“The rationale for this thing sounds entirety manufactured,” says David Osgood, a criminal-defense attorney who defended several bar employees arrested and charged in Operation Sobering Thought. “When it smells fishy, you’ve got to look for the rot. Why are they doing it? Why now? The music and nightlife community, the bar owners, are all supporting Pete Holmes. Tom Carr takes things personally. He is a very vindictive person and a very reactionary person. This is his way of telling Pete Holmes supporters no more Mr. Nice Guy.”

Win reelection or lose, Carr’s latest efforts to go after the clubs could have serious consequences—for Carr.

“If we receive a complaint that Tom Carr is using city offices or facilities to assist his campaign, there would be penalties if we found a violation,” says Wayne Barnett, executive director of the Seattle Ethics and Elections Commission.

Arguably, a crackdown on clubs now, in the weeks before the election, would do more damage to Carr’s chances. So what’s really going on?

At a forum hosted by the West Seattle Democratic Women in late September, Carr revealed that his father, an alcoholic, died of an alcohol-related accident when Carr was 14 years old. “I don’t talk about this much,” he said. “When I was a kid, police would come to my house a lot. Back then, police would show up and just tell my dad to quiet down.” Carr is notoriously vindictive in political circles, has a reputation for taking things personally, and is quick to become agitated. Carr’s dislike for alcohol combined with what he may perceive as a personal rejection by the bar owners—made worse by their embrace of his opponent—may have set him off.

Another theory: Carr has always had it in for these bars, as is evident from his track record, but Nickels reined him in, particularly after the deluge of bad press following Operation Sobering Thought. After Nickels lost in the primary election—giving up any meaningful power he had over the city attorney’s office—Carr was free to launch a fresh crusade against the bars. The meeting on October 6 was the first after Nickels lost. Carr may see this time as a window to whack the bars before the next mayor takes office. If Carr fears he will lose the November election to Holmes, this may be his last chance to punish the bar owners for opposing him.

Lastly, perhaps Milnor was a loose cannon and Carr had nothing to do with her crazy rant, right before the election, ripping the scab off an embarrassing wound. Now Milnor and Carr are back-stepping to protect against the potential fallout. But this third theory doesn’t hold water. Milnor stands by her assertions of rising crime, and Carr stands by Milnor. Milnor says she and Carr talked before the meeting but didn’t discuss specific plans. On the topic of bars and nightlife, she says, they discussed “city laws and ordinance and we talked about creative solutions, proactive solutions” to dealing with bars. In other words, Carr knows what Milnor is doing, and they’re looking for “creative solutions” for dealing with bars. Osgood says, “‘Creative solution’ is another code word for harassment.”

Carr may get his revenge.

“If I had to go through what we went through before, I would sell my business without a doubt,” says Meckling. He claims that Neumos and Moe Bar have always vigilantly checked identification and refused service to anyone who is visibly intoxicated. He says, if he sells, “Then the city can deal with an irresponsible owner running a 700-person live-music venue and see how that affects the neighborhood.”

Meinert doesn’t think Meckling is making an idle threat.

“When you work in the music business, your profit margins are pretty slim, you are doing it more out of passion than profit,” says Meinert. “When you then are being harassed on top of that by the city, you have more incentive to just do something else.”

Carr opponent Holmes grasps the value of bars and clubs. “They are going to be a key part of the city’s economic recovery, as a tourist city and a city of music,” Holmes says. “They need to be encouraged, not repressed.”

In 2008, the 2,000 businesses in Seattle’s music and nightlife industry created over 11,000 jobs and generated $90 million in local and state taxes. The industry, says Meinert, “employs thousands of people, it pays taxes, and it’s an economic engine.”

“In my mind, Operation Sobering Thought was a mistake,” Holmes says. “It would be refreshing if Tom Carr would just admit that it was a mistake.” Holmes adds that the state liquor board has jurisdiction of overservice in a bar and is the “most appropriate” entity to deal with overservice problems—if they exist. “Coercion is something that has to be used sparingly.”

“If you are a fan of nightlife, there is no reason for you to vote for Tom Carr,” says Quentin Ertel, owner of Havana on Pike Street. “You have every reason to vote for Pete Holmes.” recommended

This article has been updated since its original publication.

59 replies on “Remain Silent”

  1. Wow! Great article. Good work with this one Stranger.

    There has been a clear and consistent set of attacks from Tom Carr toward music venues and nightclubs. The only thing you missed is:

    1) The police department works for the Mayor, so why is some low level lawyer (Milnor) saying what the police are going to do?

    2) Tom Carr has also targeted gay clubs specifically and tried to shut them down for having male nude posters on their walls inside the club.

    It would be interesting to get the opinions of the Mayoral and Council candidates and about Carr’s abuse of power. Also, I hope the next police chief doesn’t let lawyers order his team around.

    Vote Holmes, Holmes!

  2. “Carr, reached by phone after the meeting, repeated Milnor’s claim that there is a problem with overservice and associated violence near the clubs on Capitol Hill. “I believe bars that serve alcohol and push people out on the street who are intoxicated bear some responsibility for what those people do, especially in circumstances of overservice,” he said.”

    What about the person who goes to the liquor store, buys a bottle, overserves themselves and commits a crime? Who is liable then Mr. Carr? The Liquor control board?

  3. Milnor is an opionnated pistol. She fits working well with Carr.

    About a year ago the issue of violence came up in a meeting, violence in bars. A speaker pointed out violence in gay bars is rare, and she did not want to accept that. She became the pseudo expert on violence in gay bars.

    It was strange.

    Carr and his side kick pistol need to go.

    Vote Holms. I did.

  6. Dom,

    Why don’t you guys file an emergency FOIA request TODAY vs. Carr’s office, the SPD, and the Mayor’s office for any and all communications related to such a sting, including all emails, phone records, and memos?

    If this politically motivated, out and shame everyone involved.

  9. Fantastic article Dominic. I hope that someone also reminds the gay community that Carr & Milnor have spent a lot of resources on harassing gar bars on the hill. I wonder if Milnor being an evangelical christian from Kent has anything to do with this.

    Let’s throw both Carr and Milnor out of office. We don’t need no stinking homophobic, anti-fun, anti-nightlife folks running this city!

    Pete Holmes has my vote!

  10. How does Carr have this much power? And how does he have so much free time on the job to focus valuable taxpayer resources on a handful of gay bars and rock clubs? And maybe more important, why can’t Mayor Nickels, who’s given a lot of lip service to supporting the music community and has an office dedicated to it, reign Carr in? It seems our tax dollars and police time should be spent on real crime, rather than harassing music clubs. Punish criminals, not clubs and their patrons who are doing nothing wrong.

  11. here is what I found in the RCW, which by my reading says the cops can give you ride home but you can refuse, and if you do, they have to leave you alone:

    RCW 46.61.266

    A law enforcement officer may offer to transport a pedestrian who appears to be under the influence of alcohol or any drug and who is walking or moving along or within the right-of-way of a public roadway, unless the pedestrian is to be taken into protective custody under RCW 70.96A.120. (which allows for transport for treatment)

    The law enforcement officer offering to transport an intoxicated pedestrian under this section shall:

    (1) Transport the intoxicated pedestrian to a safe place; or

    (2) Release the intoxicated pedestrian to a competent person.

    The law enforcement officer shall take no action if the pedestrian refuses this assistance. No suit or action may be commenced or prosecuted against the law enforcement officer, law enforcement agency, the state of Washington, or any political subdivision of the state for any act resulting from the refusal of the pedestrian to accept this assistance.

  12. “I believe bars that serve alcohol and push people out on the street who are intoxicated bear”

    Intoxicated bears! I knew it was bad but not like this. Tom Carr for mayor of the Cuff!

  13. “People are being overserved, [Tienney Milnor] reportedly said, and then assaulting and robbing people when they leave the bars.”

    I was at that meeting of 40 club owners–AND security staff AND bartenders AND promoters from Capital Hill, I might add–and what she actually said was:

    “People are being overserved,and then BEING assaulted and robbed by people after they leave the bars, often as they walk home through Cal Anderson park drunk & unawares.”

    I’m not saying she didn’t go all law-and-order and threaten to, ya know, “bring the ol’ hammer-o-justice down if things didn’t change” — just like every prosecuting attorney does when speaking publicly — but at least get the main thrust of the quote right, guys!

    (And you might tell people that walking through a dimly lit park when you’re shit-face-blotto-ed might not be a great idea either… )

  16. It should be noted, that the east precinct has been working closely with the business owners in capitol hill. Milnors approach completely blind sided everyone involved, not just the business owners. Its unfortunate for the SPD as Milnors actions actually undermine progressive work done by O’Neil and his team.

    Fortunately i think the capitol hill bar owners are aware of this, and will continue to forge ahead with their relationship with the east precinct. Things can continue down the progressive co-exsisting relationship we have built, although it may be pending Milnors removal from our district.

    We all want a safe and vibrant neighborhood.

  17. Super awesome article.

    It frustrates me that such businesses as Neumos/Moe Bar have to feel this kind of heat. Those guys have done so much for the community in providing an awesome space to experience, discover, and enjoy music.

  19. @18, if your link was to Brodeur’s column, it looks like she published it about 11 hours before Holden’s, so you might be wrong about who did the poaching. Brodeur actually has been on this issue for a while. What’s disheartening about her columns is the reader comments, look at her one Friday, yikes!, quite the opposite of what you get in The Stranger and hopefully not an indicator of the larger public opinion.

  20. I don’t see cops asking patrons leaving QWEST field where they have been drinking…. Tom Carr is a plague on our society and probably looks forward to leaving office so he can legally go work for the residential developers he has been during his term!

  21. i was at the east precinct meeting on oct. 6. officer o’neill holds these meetings for the nightlife businesses up here on the hill. the meetings are informative for both the east precinct and our businesses due to our open conversation and exchange of information. there is an honest effort by the responsible business owners to work hand in hand with the east precinct in order to produce a safe, vibrant nightlife for our visitors. there is a tangible result to our meetings. a positive result that ends up in our nightlife being safer because of two sides working together.
    tienney milnor most certainly changed the tone of our relationship at that meeting. she most certainly did threaten our licenses. repeat… she did threaten our licenses. she’s not telling the truth by saying she didn’t. she was out of line. now let’s show a raise of hands to see who is in agreement. as a viable, responsible, motivated business owner it’s a very scary thing for the city attorney come at you like she did.
    i hope officer o’neill can rebuild what she’s demolished.

  22. @18, if your link was to Brodeur’s column, it looks like she published it about 11 hours before Holden’s, so you might be wrong about who did the poaching. Brodeur actually has been on this issue for a while. What’s disheartening about her columns is the reader comments, look at her one Friday, yikes!, quite the opposite of what you get in The Stranger and hopefully not an indicator of the larger public opinion.

  23. #20, I love your comment on Qwest Field. They would never dream of taking away football, soccer and baseball under this issue of drunks wondering the streets of SoDo.

    Keep your paws off my rock n’ roll, Jerks!

  26. @20 & 27

    Actually Liquor Control threatened to take Qwest Field’s license for a full football season but settled for a 6 figure penalty… way more than any of the clubs on the hill have paid I bet

  27. Seattle should take a hint from other cities with vibrant music scenes, like Austin, Texas, where the sign coming in says “Live music capitol of the world!” that city (which is more than half the size of Seattle)makes millions annually off of its artists and supporting them…Seattle could have become the Austin of the north, but the real estate nazis took over and instead we got condo’s, yuppies and loss of culture, not to mention sky rocketing cost of living…ugh…Seattle was the original music conference city as well, North By Northwest, but with all the venues closing it moved to Portland, then was done in there too…look at what South By Southwest is these days…lets try to take back some of our basic rights as citizens by voting these a**holes out so we can continue to make and enjoy music without being harrased by greedy uptight bores.

  28. Carr has made some absolutely boneheaded moves, but I always have to questino to motivation and integrity of the Stranger’s reporting. I do not support any of Carr’s stupid “Operation Sobering Thought” tactics, and think they’re a waste of time.

    Unfortunately, for all the reasons the Stranger will list Tom Carr should leave his post, it can’t really list one reason Pete Holmes is qualified to take it. A lawyer for 24 years? So what. He’s a bankruptcy lawyer! No litigation experience. His current practice is minimal. He has not managed large staff of litigation attorneys (90 or so in City Attorneys office). He has not been a criminal lawyer, either defense or prosecution. From a purely legal perspective, he is not qualified. No private sector law firm would hire him for a similar job, why should the City? Because Tom Carr doesn’t like bars isn’t a good enough answer.

  29. @30 That penalty wasn’t because of over-serving or drunks roaming the streets. Qwest had cut a secret deal with beer distributors to get volume discounts, something the WSLCB takes very seriously. (Gotta make sure everyone’s palm gets greased!)

  30. @32 – Nice work for the Carr campaign – this is what is repeated over and over – more half truths, which is Carr’s general practice.

    Holmes has been a successful attorney for 25 years. And he kicked Carr’s ass all over the City while Holmes was head of the OPARB.

    Just as when Carr took office, you’re correct, neither had experience as a criminal attorney. I don’t think this was a point against Carr, nor is it anything against Pete.

    The case for Holmes is this – he’s a very smart and successful attorney. He is progressive – and his values better reflect the City than Carr’s. He believes in a transparent government while Carr does not.

    Against Carr – first, his decisions on which cases to defend and how to do it have cost the City millions in fees – and he lost most of this. He bungled the Sonics lawsuit. He doesn’t enforce environmental laws. His view of law enforcement is conservative, and so ineffective. We have open air drug markets in Seattle. We have a gang war happening with murders almost every weekend. All the while Carr spends tons of time on fighting an industry the people of Seattle support. He is also a vindictive hothead. Not the sort of temperment that makes a good attorney.

    Take the nightlife issue off the table. Carr is still horrible. Holmes is the better candidate.

  33. Tienney Milnor is a smoking hottie…. love it when she clicks her heels down the hall… thats why you Stranger freaks don’t like her… You can’t stand hot women who bathe….

  34. 34, I’m not supporting the Carr campaign, so your comment “Nice work” for it is full of shit.

    OPARB? Big fucking deal. Yes, Holmes has been an attorney for nearly 25 years. When was he a litigator? When has he managed a large staff of litigation attorneys? Where is his prosecutorial or defense experience? It’s not there. Bankruptcy lawyer, remember.

    I’m sure he’s a smart guy. Most lawyers have above-average intelligence. Still, no law firm would hire someone with no litigation experience to manage a huge staff of litigators, so why should the City? Oh, right, he’s progressive (a label that means aboslutely nothing these days). He’s not the best candiate we could have come up with to beat Carr. That’s it.

  35. 34, I also forgot to add that I agree with you about Carr acting like a “vindictive hothead.” You can’t honestly say Holmes has acted any differently during this campaign. Did you hear them on KUOW? They were both practically yelling at each other, talking over each other, grandstanding like a couple of gorillas pounding on their chests to claim their territory.

    I don’t think either of them are worth voting for. That’s almost always the problem in Seattle, though.

  36. GREAT ARTICLE, as a longtime Capitol Hill resident and a practicing alcoholic, I stomp around all the time, and am a known bar fly at many joints. I tip heavy, stay polite, and get great pours everywhere. What increase in assaults from wandering drunks are Carr’s people citing? The only place I get punk attitude and get hassled by people spilling out of bars is in Belltown and lower Queen Anne, usually by drunk Frat types or drunk glam types. Carr is using his office for a personal power push. The SPD’s hands are tied, BUT, I also have had years of contact (some casual, some professional) with the Men and Women at the East precint, and they aren’t nazis, and they don’t rush to enforce shit that’s stupid. However, if Carr cobbles together some team from downtown, it could get weird. How about Carr doing something with Seattle’s growing gang and meth shit instead of taking down political enemies?

  41. top ten places to tell the cops you’ve been drinking…

    10.) Cheesecake Factory
    9.) The Gap
    8.) Tim Eyman’s basement
    8.) Bruce Lee’s grave
    7.) Space Needle
    6.) King County Courtroom
    5.) EMP parking lot
    4.) SAM women’s room
    3.) church
    2.) Hooters
    1.) Tom Carr’s rancid mangina

  42. Ah yes. Nightclubs as the engine of our economic recovery as well as the indisputably optimal transmitter of ‘culture’.

    Whatever.

    I don’t care how much the nightclubbers drink and a I don’t care how much they beat each other up or run each other over. Likewise I don’t care if they suffer permanent hearing damage from their clubbing.

    I only wish the clubs would contain their noise and I wish the officer friendly (the weekend maitre d’ hotel in P. Square ushering drunks out of the neighborhood via bullhorn generally starting at 1:40 AM) would disappear forever. Likewise I wish the clubbers would enjoy their ‘community’ at a slightly lower volume and spare me the endless permutations of the word ‘bitch’.

    I’m just sayin’.

  43. I have lived on and worked at an emergency room on Capitol Hill for several years.I can tell you that the overwhelming number of the assaults related to drinking come in from Belltown and Pioneer Square. This seems to me to have a clear and intentional focus on Gay bars and their patrons.

  44. Supporters of Tom Carr wear t-shirts saying to vote for him. Nothing wrong with that but when I was walking around Greenlake today (I’ve seen them at Northgate Mall too), they are very threatening. They make veiled threats about what could happen to us if Tom Carr is reelected and we did not vote for him. One guy followed me to my car and wrote down my license plate when he saw the Pete Holmes sticker on it. SCARY and not related to Halloween or April Fools’ Day.

  45. Get Carr Out of office
    Take the WSLCB out of the mix and go private
    (did you know know that there will be a NEW POSH liquor store in Pacific Place with a grand piano and decor to the hilt all on us as Tax payers)
    …and Make sure the new Mayor has his head on,
    good lord this city is embarrassing

  49. Tom Carr is a vindictive butthead.I cannot believe he has been able to abuse his office in the manner he has. Operation sobering thought was a ridiculously misguided political stunt that backfired. The deal he offered small time drug dealers to change their ways was even a bigger farce: Stop dealing and we won’t file charges against you. The bullshit “help” that was offered provided zero immediate financial support or help with addictions, etc. Meanwhile, arrests that would have otherwise gone unnoticed have garnered front page headlines: “Another drug dealer arrested who defied the dickhead.” That fucker needs his ass kicked and I am going to do it if he is reelected–I promise..but don’t vote for him as tempting as that might be.

  50. The more obnoxious drunks get arrested and the more irresponsible bars get shut down THE BETTER! Nightlife is great and important part of our city but people ought to practice moderation and respect others. I live on Cap Hill and I’m sick and tired of alcoholics who don’t know when to stop drinking and partying. The Stranger needs to pick its battles better.

  51. I’m not entirely convinced that the noisy, obnoxious, drunk pinheads roaming Seattle every night really improve the city’s quality of life. Closing bars might be a rather good idea. The fewer the merrier, for the rest of us.

    Tom Carr, eh? Cool. Where’s my ballot…

  52. “For his part, Carr insists bar owners are targeting him.”

    And they have every right to. They’re being defensive, not vindictive.

  53. “I’m not entirely convinced that the noisy, obnoxious, drunk pinheads roaming Seattle every night really improve the city’s quality of life. Closing bars might be a rather good idea. The fewer the merrier, for the rest of us.

    Tom Carr, eh? Cool. Where’s my ballot…”

    Move out to the suburbs if you want to live in the suburbs. Or just fucking stop moving near broadway and being surprised when there’s nightlife around you. Why on earth are you here? Surely there are many places in Washington where you can get restful sleep and walk around to a serene moonlit view. I’ll put up with the usual wakeups from WHOOOOOOOOOOs and occasional broken glass or hobo yell if I know I can go out on any night and find something entertaining to do.

    One night I may not. I’m not so stupid and selfish as to expect everything in the city to change as my needs change. Enjoy the disgustingly expensive condos and generic chain stores that’ll eventually replace these bars in your bland (further) gentrification fantasy.

  54. Ms. Undead, given the high background noise level that is an inescapable consequence of high density city life, it’s especially important for city dwellers to be mindful of their contribution to that noise, and to minimize it out of respect for their neighbors.

    I would argue that if yelling your drunk pinheads off, as you make your way from the bars to your cars through residential neighborhoods, is an essential part of late-night “entertainment” here (as it appears to be), then perhaps YOU should be the one to move to BFE, not me. There you can scream, shout, and break bottles all night long to that formerly serene — and unpopulated — moonlit view. See ya!

  55. “Ms. Undead, given the high background noise level that is an inescapable consequence of high density city life, it’s especially important for city dwellers to be mindful of their contribution to that noise, and to minimize it out of respect for their neighbors.”

    I absolutely agree, but punishing every night-dweller for the sins of a few is not proportional.

    “as you make your way from the bars to your cars through residential neighborhoods”

    Oh bullshit, the worst of them don’t generally need to drive home. They’re in that messy state because they can stumble to their doorstep. Besides, again I’m fine with the cops targeting THEM, instead of pathetic campaigns like this.

    “then perhaps YOU should be the one to move to BFE, not me. There you can scream, shout, and break bottles all night long to that formerly serene — and unpopulated — moonlit view. See ya!”

    Sorry guy, you’re the one overreacting to a problem and suggesting scorched earth tactics.

  56. All this nightlife hatery aside, Tom Carr is a TOTAL FUCKING DOUCHEBAG. The way he went about the recent trial involving the Seattle Firefighter who got injured on the job and ended up having to sue the city for his medical coverage made me want to fucking puke. The entire city legal team in that case came off as evil, stingy, moustache twirling scumbags. The Grinch doesn’t have shit on Carr. And I have it on good authority that his heart is actually a shrivelled frozen piece of coal. So fuck him. Given the chance I would spike an overflowing colostomy bag on his face. Vote Holmes.

  57. man . . . i’m annoyed with this article. knowing nothing about either candidate, i can say that it makes me not want to vote for . . . whoever it is you’re supporting simply because you’re obnoxious. seriously, is the reporting or an op piece? want the people on the fence to join your side? become more of a neutral reporting source. easier said than done, but just try it.

  58. I’m glad Mr. Holden wrote this peice and included some legal advice.

    “We wanted to tell you to lie—to tell them you had beers at home, or to say you were drinking in a bar that no longer exists.. but that would be illegal. Deliberately lying to a police officer is false reporting, and that’s a crime… We would be technically obstructing justice if we told you to lie…”

    “But you don’t have to answer the question, and you shouldn’t answer the question.”

    well… uh…..where do I start here?

    “obstruction of justice” is a very popular charge from SPD, and other cops. it’s basically their “go-to” offense when someone isn’t behaving the way they want them to.

    It never sticks. Prosecutors would have to prove that you knowingly lied (if you’re drunk you aren’t exactly credible) in a way that “willfully hinders, delays, or obstructs any law enforcement officer in the discharge of his or her official powers or duties.” (RCW)

    The language of “False Reporting” in RCW is also pretty narrow– it’s use is constricted as far as what you are talking about (has to be a crime or an emergency), and the result of your action (must cause undue inconvenience or harm). So, even if you told a cop “he went thattaway” they will still have to prove that they were unable to get the suspect and it was YOUR fault.

    Anyways, if anyone is still reading this, my point is, avoiding this charge by ‘refusing to tell’ is the same as lying. One is no more hindering their investigation by lying than they are by stating “no comment”. Neither of these actions will likely result in a reasonable criminal complaint, while both of these actions, along with giving cops a dirty look, flipping them the bird, and so on, can land you in jail for at least a few hours. Unfair? you can sue the city or write the mayor’s office, but cops can still act as they wish. Personally, I’d actually lie because its not like they’re going to track me down after they “discovered” (somehow) my lie, and a cop isn’t likely to be very happy about someone’s supposed ‘right to remain silent’.

    Of course, The Stranger’s lawyers were probably trying to avoid trouble with the law of their own with this comment, so I guess it makes sense, but… well… yeah.

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