True Forced Loneliness

1. I’m surprised that there is only one post here (at the time that I write mine) which mentions misogny.

   If the man had published racist rants and then gone into a meeting of blacks or some other minority and opened fire, we wouldn’t hesitate to call him a racist.

   If he’d published anti-gay rants and then gone into a meeting of gays and opened fire, we wouldn’t hesitate to call him a homophobe.

   And yet Sodini published many anti-women rants and opened fire on a roomful of women … and everyone calls him “lonely”, “mentally ill”, or anything else EXCEPT “misogynist”. Why is that ??

   Sodini hated women SO much he felt compelled to kill them. He was truly misogynist.

   It seems our whole society is so filled with contempt toward women, most can’t even recognize it when it reaches its most extreme point. This reminds me of the “cultural defense” of female genital mutilation. If the abuse to women is cultural, we’re expected to accept it and even preserve it.

2. @82: maybe its me but if i saw a woman on youtube bitching about men won’t date her and i were single the first thing i would think to do is offer to date her and the second thing or if i weren’t single then tell another lonely guy friend about her and he’d do the same thing. and that is why the male female dynamic is fucked up, there is no equity it is completely different on each side, a different set of rules etc. gender equality blah blah there won’t be gender equality until men have to fight off women and women have to chase after men. go ahead, prove me wrong, find a bunch of videos of women going on about how they can’t ever get a date. They don’t exist! No, they complain at how men suck, etc. And yet this isn’t called out for the misandry it is, oh no, never. Man bashing is OK!

3. Aussie Steve @ 75,

   I have to ask, your Maton is it acoustic or electric. Man are they lovely to the eye.

4. rewind:

   …? not a full stop ….

5. I’ve had my share of interactions with guys who I will clump into a group called “damaged”. I can tell you that they had in common some personality characteristics I found very unappealing. Here are some, in random order:

   1) nervous fractal-like chatter which turns the heads of passersby
   2) nervous giggling while engaging in petting/sex
   3) excessive nervous sweating
   4) over 30 but lacks any sexual experience (over 40 and lacking is even worse)
   5) inappropriate clothing for first date (anything stained or torn, flood pants, too tight pants, polyester pants, dockers, plaid shirts that aren’t retro-cool, white socks and dark shoes)
   5)a)still wearing work uniform on first date, i.e., didn’t bother to change (i would only make an exception for police or military)
   6) lack of attention to personal hygiene, especially on first date
   7) asks for the first date but doesn’t offer to pay
   8) doesn’t bother to clean his home before asking you over
   9) car full of garbage
   10) obsessed with sci-fi
   11) still lives with parents (only works if the parents are fabulously wealthy and the guy has his own wing or a guest house)

   Oh man, I’m on a roll !!! I could write so much more but will stop here. You get the picture.

   If you want to be attractive to others, make yourself appealing! This goes for men and women. If you are not appealing, you only have yourself to blame. Women are much better than men at overlooking physical “flaws”, I’ve seen ugly men look absolutely wonderful with the right clothing, grooming, and attitude of confidence (not cocky, just confident).

6. fortwith

   I was surrounded by men bashers my whole life and no it is NOT ok. Before I held hands or hugged a girl I was brought up to believe that men were oppressors. (Yet another reason why I shouldn’t have moved to Oregon … YIKES!)

   I recovered somewhat … I have empathy, but seriously … are you going to weight your entire existance on the total acceptance of ONE OTHER PERSON.

   Honestly, I think most of these guys when given the chance to date, will act like spoiled insatiable fucks.

   Sure theoretical lonely girl might get a date, but if she isn’t somewhat independent she will never be taken seriously. And I see it happen ALL the time. An overly dependent smitten girl worships some douchy guy who just can’t stop cheating on his girl because she has lost her self respect. And the guy is too spineless to cut her lose. I just feel that, you have to attempt to be the best person you can be to bring something to the table.

7. jane doe … you make it creepily sound like a job interview.

8. Geni @ post 51 … absolutely awesome comments! They are funny and so true!! I especially love this:

   “Some men seem to get hung up on it to the point of being utterly outraged that the only women interested in them are their own female equivalents.”

   Right on the mark.

9. former tri-state, in a way the first dates are like interviews. You don’t know enough about each other to have a true sense of caring, you’re feeling each other out, deciding whether or not to proceed (in whatever direction, whether just sex or an actual relationship). Everyone has their likes and dislikes. I think the dislikes I listed are probably universals.

10. I suppose next time I’ll show up in my suit. I’ll have to work on my resume … I suppose the experience part can be fun read.

    References? hmmm …

11. lonely women aren’t lonely because NO man will date them, they’re lonely because the RIGHT men won’t date them, and that is the difference… go ahead, search for “men won’t date me”…

12. Jane, what would you do, if the guy you went out on a date with showed up … business attire. Handed you a written resume of his skills, qualifications, experience.

    And then topped it off with written letters of recomendation?

    And as a bonus, asked for a receipt to write off the date as a business expense

13. jane maybe you can explain, if not having sexual experience at age 30 is too unattractive then how the fuck are they supposed to fix that? this is why men like sodini end up the way they do, its a trap, once you are in the trap there is no way out, the game is stacked against you, give up. jane, that list is awfully long and a few of them suggest to me that you can’t handle real people, just fake prettyboys who like all the “right” things. likes sci-fi? oh no, not that, real men aren’t into star trek. and let me ask you, have you ever asked for the first date — and paid? it’s just all to easy to call men “misogynists” when there is so much hypocrisy going on here that is totally socially acceptable….

14. @111 “I think the dislikes I listed are probably universals.”

    Um..No. I would agree that most women are turned off by bad hygiene, but some of your other requirements are absolutely NOT universal. Can’t like SciFi? I won’t date a guy that ISN’T into scifi! Some things are just a matter of personal taste…

15. Hey Kim, it’s acoustic, made from a shimmering silky Aus. timber! It’s one sweet instrument. I still covet a Martin, but they’re stupid expensive over here (try $4,500 for a OOO-28…) (My electric is a “type S” custom made locally here with straight wound, super syrupy single coils.) Sorry everyone for the side-track… now back on topic, yeah those dudes are freaks…

16. Aussie Steve,

    They both sounds sweet. I have a Martin O00C-16RGTE Premium. I got it used, wickedly cheap, due to the economy in May. I wish I had the chops to play it and my American Standard Strat better. My guitars make me feel like a poser, but I do love them. I’m hoping to be worthy of them someday.

17. Hey Loveschild that guy in the video is black. There is no way he’d be currently taking care of a woman and children if he successfully managed to knock one up.

18. Hey Kim I know what you mean about not being as good as your gear. But then again I always say you’ve got to draw your inspiration from somewhere. You need an instrument that begs you to play it, and pouts when you don’t.

19. Or maybe it is that Loveschild is confused as to what a black man who wants to be with a woman and family looks like

20. @103
    “If the man had published racist rants and then gone into a meeting of blacks or some other minority and opened fire, we wouldn’t hesitate to call him a racist.”

    I’d call that man a hero.

21. @Jane

    Actually, I disagree with most of your list.

    1) I’ve not encountered nervous chatter that has annoyed me. That’s not to say it isn’t possible, but meh.
    2) I don’t mind this, as it would go away when the nervousness passed. And we could work on him being nervous.
    3) I wouldn’t find this appealing, but I also would object overly. As with #2, it would go away when he wasn’t nervous.
    4) I do not require sexual experience in a guy of any age. All I require is a willingness to learn.
    5) The only one of these is the “stained” and possibly the “too-tight pants” (depending on on the level of tightness).
    5) Depends on the uniform. Is it cute?
    6) Lack of hygiene would be a massive turnoff for me.
    7) I would be uncomfortable having a guy pay for me on a first date. I’m uncomfortable with guys paying for me in general, unless I’ve also paid for him in the past.
    8) Depends on “clean.” Mold? Yuck. Books on the floor? I’d feel better about my own apartment.
    9) Depends on how full, and with what. Loaded up with old, rotting food? No good. Lots of paper all over the back seat? I don’t care.
    10) I think this is pretty darn appealing, actually.
    11) Depends on how long he’s been there, and how long he intends to stay. I don’t inherently object, but I want to know that if we get serious, we’d have our own place. And I can’t say that having them in a different wing would make the situation better for me, because that situation sounds unpleasant as well.

22. Er, with number 2, that should be WOULDN’T object overly.

23. Right you are, Steve. I hate to see them pout and I love it when they call me like a siren from my bed. “I was so in love with the guitar that I didn’t have the sense enough not to keep plucking away at it.” — Buddy Guy

24. I have a good idea for these guys who dwell on poor pitiful them. Get off your godam sofa and volunteer you time at a food bank or hospital. Stop feeling sorry for yourselves and see people who are really having a tough time and help. It will get you out of yourself and I bet you meet women who will admire what you are doing.

25. Dan – thanks for posting this, I find it incredibly disturbing, creepy and pathetic, and wonder if these guys are the next LA Fitness shooters. Here’s hoping their families also find the youtube posts and stage interventions to get them into lock down treatment. Honestly if I was a runner, I would notify every frikkin running event in the country about the marathoner guy who posted the “Pussy Rennaissance” youtube rant. He should be banned from all running events, or no woman would enter for fear of her own safety.

26. In the video posted @54…thats the real scary shit.
    That makes me feel like this is more of at Talaban movement or something.

    This guy had his metaphors in blender so it was sort of hard to follow but you get the idea that women who lead an independent life need to be shut down.

    And he is going to make sure it happens in his lifetime!

    WTF?

27. Why isn’t this seen as HATE crime and HATE speech? If I pouted how a racial, ethnic or religious group was the cause of all my problems and I wan angry and I planned some action against them, I’d fully expect the FBI to show up to my house.

    More proof that our society doesn’t take misogyny very seriously. Not after this, not after Virginia Tech. They look at it as random, “lonely” dudes, rather than a rash that we create by our objectification of women. To paraphrase Simone De Bouvoiur from “the Second Sex”, a woman is never treated as human, by either subhuman or superhuman.

28. @120: Because in the US, unlike in Soviet Canuckistan, we believe in free speech, and consequently, hate speech isn’t a crime unless it’s criminal incitement, and hate crimes are pre-existing criminal offences (harassment, vandalism, murder, etc.) with an aggravating circumstance tacked on.

29. I feel some sympathy for him. Yes, his anger is mis-directed, but it’s not necessarily entirely unjustified. This can be a very cold, calculating country. We’re all out for ourselves, and if you don’t have something to offer, I bet it is very easy to feel worthless. Compound that with the fact that the Baby Boomers were too self-absorbed to raise a decent generation behind them, and you have a lot of people out there with no self-esteem and none of the atrributes that society values. In that situation, you’re going to have some angry people out there, and some guys will focus that anger on their lack of sexual success, because guys deinfe themselves by their sexuality. As sociologists have pointed out about certain countries, a population imbalance with many more men than women leads to a group of men who are sexual failures. That then turns to violence (in the sociologists’ views, radicalism and terrorism). It’s not right, the guys who resort to violence are wrong, but unfortunately, it seems to be a latent quality that, like dry tinder, erupts in the correct (read: bad) circumstances. Our society – both men and women – create those circumstances. We need a more compassionate culture, but no one recognizes that in these cases. We’re more happy to dismiss them as isolated acts of crazed individuals. They are that, but much more at the same time.

30. What Coljack? you feel SYMPATHY for a mass murderer of women? It’s pure misogyny. hatred of women combined with easy access to a gun. It is not justified at all. He was a misogynist who got a gun and killed women. It is ENTIRELY UNJUSTIFIED. There is NOTHING that excuses this behavior.

31. I would personally like to take up a collection to get Dwaye, Bill and what’s-his-name laid. We could send a cute little hooker over to their door and be done with it. Otherwise, like my desire to slow down at accident scenes, I’m going to have to continue watching these TFL videos because they are so intensely horrible as to not be believed.

32. Firstly, George Sodini was totally wrong in killing those innocent women, and our prayers must go out to those women, and their grieving families.

    That said, whilst what the gym shooter did was horrible and inexcusable, if any lessons are to be learned from this horrible tragedy, then we have to look into why an otherwise sane man like George Sodini, did what he did.

    For years he endured years of forced loneliness, and before you call him a creep,stalker etc, he did try to improve his chances with women by keeping in good shape,having a decent well paid job, and buying his own house, and even attending a PUA/Seduction course, but he still got rejected.

    I understand many people who have commented here are dismissive of True Forced Loneliness, and that if a man can’t find a woman then IT’S ALL HIS FAULT. Sorry, but I know many decent hardworking men, who have good well paying jobs, are reasonably good looking, financially secure, are decent men, have genuine self confidence – YET still get rejected by women.

    Unfortunately, some men, through no fault of their of their own are lonely, and cannot find a woman, because at the end of the day, you cannot force someone to like you.

    So TFL (True Forced Loneliness) is real, very real, and Bill and Dwayne, whilst they may not be everybody’s cup of tea, they are not misogynists, and only tell the truth about how many decent men are being denied relationships and love against their own will.

    Seb
    Sydney
    New South Wales
    Australia

33. Many of the posters here have been highly critical, and quite scathing of True Forced Loneliness, and wrongly assume that the members of the TFL community are going to be the next George Sodini. Which is absolute rubbish.

    Also, many posters here falsely assume that just because a man cannot get a date, it’s because his standards are too high eg. he is expecting nothing less than Cindy Crawford/Heidi Klum, and whilst some men have totally unrealistic expectations of what they can get, most men will settle for an average to moderately attractive woman.

    Before you label me a creep and a loser, which you will anyway, because there are some very insensitive posters here. I am a 40 year old man, who has never had a girlfriend, not through the lack of trying, but because I was always get rejected by women, and I attribute my lack of success with women down to my looks because I am an ugly bastard (but I do shower once,even twice a day, religously wear deodarant and brush my teeth). I don’t have high standards at all, and even fat women reject me (not that I am anything to look at).

    So please don’t label me a misogynist, because I don’t hate anyone, but I am somewhat disappointed that not one woman on this planet has given me a decent chance. I guess have been dealt a bad hand in life in dating, but that’s life, and there’s nothing I can do about it. As a life long Love Shy/Icnel man I am not looking for/nor do want anyones sympathy, as I don’t deserve it, all I ask is for empathy, there is a difference.

    My point is this, if you are able to establish normal romantic relationships/or engage in lots of one night stands, great, I sincerely feel happy for you, but don’t make fun of other men who have not been so lucky. We do not live in a perfect world, and yes, no one has a god given right to a partner, but please understand that the cliche “there is someone for everyone'”is just that, it’s a cliche.

    Have a nice day.

    Seb
    Sydney
    New South Wales
    Australia

34. 134 – Bull. Shit.

    “For years he endured years of forced loneliness, and before you call him a creep,stalker etc, he did try to improve his chances with women by keeping in good shape,having a decent well paid job, and buying his own house, and even attending a PUA/Seduction course, but he still got rejected.”

    Yeah. Know why? BECAUSE HE WAS THE KIND OF CRAZY MOTHERFUCKER CAPABLE OF COMMITTING MASS MURDER OF STRANGERS! Just because he’d gone for years without actually doing it doesn’t mean the capability wasn’t there, doesn’t mean women couldn’t pick up on that.

    This was not an “otherwise sane” man. “Decent men” don’t commit mass murder. I know plenty of people, men and women, who have been lonely and without a mate for years who somehow manage not to take a gun to a public place and start randomly shooting innocent people. They never would, never will. Many of them even manage to be *gasp* happy with their lives!

    “…and only tell the truth about how many decent men are being denied relationships and love against their own will.”

    This quote says so much about the mindset of you and these other “TFL” losers. THEIR will? What the hell do you think THEIR will has to do with anything? Women have will and choices, too, you know. You can’t just decide to have a woman and then wonder why that alone (perhaps embellished with some superficial trappings around their lifestyle) doesn’t make it happen.

    You labor under the same delusion that these asshole idiots do: that women are chattel to be distributed to men who want them, and that every man who wants a woman should get one. That’s not how it works, not for anyone of either sex.

    Being a stupid, boring, self-absorbed, woman-hating asshole doesn’t get you very far in the relationship game, no matter how much you work on superficial bullshit like job, clothes, pick-up lines, or home decor. Sorry. We women actually have brains and what’s more, we have self-preservation instincts.

    Furthermore, being interesting, intelligent, and caring can be enough to get a guy all the pussy he can handle, even if other factors aren’t ideal. Take the example of my ex-boyfriend: he could be the single most socially awkward human being I’ve ever known. Shy, awkward, slumped, badly dressed, untidy, had a tendency to go for a week without showering, wore dirty clothes, talked through his nose, couldn’t keep track of the time of day well enough to watch TV, much less be organized towards a career path, chewed with his mouth open, did everything “wrong,” and yet, women pursued him everywhere he went. He never went more than a few months between the end of one relationship and the start of the next.

    Know why? Because he really, genuinely saw women as people and cared about them AS PEOPLE. Never thought he was entitled to anything and extended real, honest friendship without expecting anything. Oh, and he maintains friendships with his exes and doesn’t give a shit if a woman is skinny or big, plain or a barbie doll. (I don’t expect every guy out there to be appearances-blind, but this guy just never seemed to have picked up on cultural standards of beauty.)

    If any of your so-called “TFL” was real at all, someone like this wouldn’t have a chance!

35. Re: Comment made by laurelgardner.

    I am not defending George Sodini for what he did, and yes, his act was the work of a madman, no doubt about that. But George was not born crazy, and if you push people hard enough, some of them will snap. Did you honestly think he woke up one morning, and said “I hate women, and today I am going to teach them a lesson”. Of course he didn’t, his rage and furstration had been building up for years, and maybe if some woman gave him the love he needed,then this terrible tragedy may never have occured. Yes, maybe he was overtly creepy, maybe he had too high expectations,maybe he had bad breath, who knows?

    I have been single my entire life, yet I don’t hate women, and nor have I any desire to commit mass murder. I have always approached women as a gentleman and in good faith, and even when women were being rude to me for no good reason, I kept calm and never retaliated.

    Yes, women, just like men have the right to choose who they want to date, and who they don’t, but how do you explain why so many women (not you personally) date “bad boys”,”thugs”,”gangsters”, “wife bashers” and “players” who only see women as cum dumpsters (pardon my language), and generally treat women like shit, couldn’t it be argued that some of these dysfunctional men are arseholes who hate women by mistreating them??

    And then how do you explain why so many men who actually are “interesting”,”intelligent” and “caring” are not “swimming in pussy” as you have alluded to? Does the old saying “Nice Guys finish last” ring any bells? I know many thoroughly decent men, who are lonely and get rejected by women.

    As for your ex boyfiend, I admire you for accepting him for who was inspite of the flaws he had, but most women I speak too would be turned off by a guy who is shy,untidy, wore dirty clothes, and did not wash for a week.If he has lots of success with women, then good luck to him. I don’t have high standards, and when I speak to a woman, I just try and make fun and interesting conversation, but I can’t force a woman to like me. But men have natural urges, and men can’t help being attracted to women, and nor should men apologise for this fact.

    Also, most of the rejections I have received from women have been of a non verbal nature ie. their body language indicated to me they did not like me.

    As for pick up lines (not that I believe in them), but how do you explain the emergence of the PUA (Pick up artists) industry in the U.S.A??

    As for TFL, there are many men (and some women), who are living this life, just as there are men who are Love Shy or Involuntarily celibate, all I ask is that these people are not mocked or made fun of, for something that is mostly out of their control.

    Seb
    Sydney
    New South Wales
    Australia

36. @Seb, every single reason you are living in loneliness can be summed up in the following sentence:
    “Even fat women reject me.”
    Despite your protestations, that musing just goes to prove that you don’t really think of women as people, at least the ones that aren’t attractive. No matter how many ‘charming’ airs and graces you may try to put on, that kind of contempt can’t be hidden. As laurelgardner pointed out, us ladies have a natural self-preservation instinct, and that instinct (when it’s working right), stops us from dating men who seem like they want to chop us into teeny, tiny little pieces.
    Your argument that “women date bad boys and wife-bashers”, is also completely ridiculous, yes some women end up in abusive relationships, and a lot more end up in relationships with people who don’t value them but some men do exactly the same thing. Think of all those stories you here about batshit-insane, ultra possessive women who threaten suicide when their husbands/boyfriends look at porn. That’s abuse too. Some people just wind up in bad relationship situations, or have terrible taste. You can’t condemn all of woman-kind for the unfortunate situations of the few, just as you’ll notice no one on this forum has said “all men are pigs” because one man opened fire in a gym. And yes, it could be, and is, argued that the men who mistreat the women they are in relationships with are also arseholes, no one is saying otherwise. Sexual success is by no means a measure of arseholery and the phrase “nice guys finish last”, was coined by a guy who wasn’t really nice, but liked to think of himself as being so, a girl has to be seriously damaged goods not to enjoy the company of a genuinely nice guy, rather than a bitter sack of shit who ascribes his loneliness to a positive personality trait because its too hard to admit that he isn’t really nice at all.
    Everyone here is willing to concede that some people have a lot more trouble in romance than others, and there is nothing wrong with not being able to get laid, or start a relationship. What we’re all objecting to is the sense of entitlement TFL men seem to have. They don’t look inside and say “I’m not much of a looker, beyond socially awkward and I don’t really leave the house as much as I should. No wonder I don’t get any.” They say “I’m not getting any, fuck you all for not giving it to me.”
    You are right in saying that there are women out there who live in loneliness too (especially women who live in the inner suburbs of Australian metropolises where there are significantly more hetrosexual ladies than gentlemen), the difference is that these women don’t join “movements” that blame their social problems on others (in general women have a tendency to blame themselves). Yes, we live in a shallow, image and confidence obsessed culture but its not like your “even fat women reject me” attitude is any different from any one elses.
    Finally, I think Sodini probably WAS born that way – which is why he couldn’t get a girl to begin with – and if he had managed to convince some judgment-lacking lady to shack up with him, she probably would have ended up buried in the backyard.

37. What a FAT SLOB. It’s no wonder why he’s alone.

38. WOW….couldn`t even watch it the whole way thru…what i did see…leaves me with the thought….get a life….grow-up…{that would be the part about blaming others for your own shortfalls}….want your life to change….get your head out of your ass and change it…..its called living life….ought to try it sometime….want to meet people….go join a pottry calss…art class…any class or course or anything for that matter….that gets you out..and interacting with others….last point i can make is qiut being afraid to live….and go live life while you can…

39. re: Comment made by Like an Umbrella.

    Firstly, I do see women as people, and when I said that “even fat women reject me”, I meant that in the sense that I don’t approach hot looking women, because they would reject me anyway, plus I am more interested in a woman’s character than her beauty. Please don’t use the feminist shaming tactic, of painting me to be the “bad guy”, to make you look better. And don’t the bad boys and thugs so many woman date truly hold women in contempt?? And what about PUA’s (Pick Up Artists)?, they only see women as sex objects, nothing else. It’s amazing how some of you women treat good looking men as cute,charming (even before you get to know him), and if a guy is not handsome, he is automatically a “creep”, or as you alluded to “someone who might chop me up into tiny pieces”. Most of my bosses have been women, and I got along with them absolutely famously.

    And how on earth can do determine that when you meet a person for the first time, that he is “going to chop you up, into teeny, tiny pieces”?? If a person met Ted Bundy for the first time (not knowing what he did), most people would say that he was a handsome, charming man. Serial killers/Mass murderers/Creeps/Weirdos don’t have the number 666 tattooed on their foreheads, or look “evil”. Women also commit acts of violence, but the media like to portray that it’s only men who do bad things. And if you women are so good at self preservation, and picking the right man, then why (particularly in the U.S.A) is the divorce rate so unacceptably high??. The bottom line is when you enter a relationship (this applies to both men and women), you take a risk, the same risk you take when you drive a car, crossing the road, flying in an aircraft ie.the relationship could be happy, or it can end in tears.

    I am not condemining all women because some of them (just like some men do), make bad relationship choices, there are many women who date decent men, and are happy.

    As for the nice guy bashing, let’s look at arguably the most oversued and misunderstood word of the English language “NICE”. Most people are generally nice, it’s called modern civilisation, and if people were not nice to each other for the most part, society would descend into anarchy and chaos. The term “Nice Guys finish last” is not a cliche coined by a guy who is not really nice, what rubbish!!, it came about because many decent and hardworking men who treat men women well, are often overlooked by women in favour of men who mistreat women (either physically/or mentally). Many men I have spoken with, and this includes men who get lots of women, unanimously agree (based on hard evidence), that as a man you are at a serious disadvantage in the dating game if you are a genuinely nice guy/decent man, as opposed to men who treat women with contempt. This is because to many women nice guys/decent men are boring, and don’t provide the adrenlin rush or excitement the bad boy/thug does. I am one of the genuine Nice Guys that you women hate and despise, but I am not going to apologise for the way my parents raised me, and the good values they instilled, and yes, I have my flaws just like anybody else. And no,
    “I don’t want to chop anyone up, into tiny pieces” (sarcasm intended).

    I agree that no person is owed a partner, or automatically entitled to one, but the catch 22 is, as a man if you can’t establish relationships with women you are labelled a loser,social misfit,creep, weirdo etc, but if you try to meet women and still fail, you still get insulted and put down. Damned if you, damned if you don’t.

    If women live a life of loneliness, in most cases, it’s beacuse they CHOOSE to. Dating is much easier for women than men, in the sense that it is the man who is expected to intiate first contact with a woman he desires, so it’s really women who do the choosing not men. As for women who live in the inner cities of Australian cities, I can only speak for Sydney where I live, and I can tell you that the so called “man drought” is a myth. If anything, Sydney is a “sausage fest” (too many men, not enough women), and unless you are very handsome or rich, most Sydney women don’t want to know about you, and even a Canadian woman I once met told me that Sydney women are very cold.

    I do not see my loneliness as a positive personality trait, who the hell does?? And whilst my dateless life has caused some bitterness, I am no bitter sack of shit. So once again, don’t paint me as the bad guy, when you don’t even know who I am.

    As for George Sodini, once again, what he did was totally unforgivable, and terrible, but it is impossible to ascertain if he was born violent, and George Sodini did actually have a few but short relationships with women. Also you can’t say that if some woman shacked up with George Sodini, she would have ended up buried in the backyard, you can’t make that assumption.

    Seb
    Sydney
    Australia

40. The most compact explanation of the (most) unfortunate Sodini is that he experienced torture, and torture makes people crazy. This is not to defend his murderous behavior in any way; just to say that he had become — or maybe had always been — something inhuman, a sputtering wreck of a nervous system in an otherwise intact body.

    So, was he driven crazy? or was he always thus? Though it hardly matters for the victims, the distinction is played out through all these comments, and is directly relevant to the TFL’ers as well. One side, what I think of as feminist-leaning, says “Of course he/they couldn’t get laid; look how angry and crazy they are!” While plainly common-sensical, his view leaves out any possibility of change or evolution or history. The other side, which I think is a bit more rational, says “Yes, you can see how they’d be unattractive now; but maybe they weren’t always that way, or at least some weren’t always. Maybe some of them were once in more-or-less a normal range, and their bitterness and misogyny are a _result_ of unkind, unfair rejection, and not not the cause.” We can probably all agree on the existence of a downward spiral, in which rejection brings on bitterness, which brings on more rejection.

    It’s possible that Sodini was always an obvious creep that any woman would avoid, but we don’t really know. As for the TFL’ers, I find it hard to believe that they were all unattractive woman-haters from the day they were born. More sensible, it seems to me, is that these are the ones who got pushed onto the downward spiral and couldn’t get off before the bottom. Remember, everyone was somebody’s baby once.

41. Re: Comment made by Ishmael.

    An excellent post, a well balanced response to men who are living TFL.

    Seb
    Sydney
    Australia

42. This thread is dead … BUT

    Why do so many of these women get so fricken defensive when THEY JUST DON’T LIKE SOMEONE?

    I don’t want to go out and paint you women as the vilans in society … but angry unempowered men? Can’t get laid? No, it doesnt’ justify their behaviors … but I mean … I would almost suggest euthanasia for these buggers. If they value the unattainable companionship of women over life itself?

    It’s one of the greatest mysteries of sexuality, why decent looking, unassuming, hard working, independent, non-damaged guys are some of the most undesirable men on the planet …

    Seriously, all things considered … the only thing I perhaps have going for me is my HEIGHT! If I was under 6 ft, I would have never gotten laid!

43. “As for pick up lines (not that I believe in them), but how do you explain the emergence of the PUA (Pick up artists) industry in the U.S.A??”

    The Pick Up Artist industry is like the weight loss industry: millions are made by giving people false hopes that their problems can be solved quickly and easily without any actual work.

44. From this man’s experience: women’s choices = men’s responsibility. Men’s current lack of procreative rights and subsequent forced parenthood being an example of men’s second class citizenship. After many years of being compelled to live that reality and being very unhappy about it, I realized personal happiness takes work and one must find it within before happiness can be found from another.

    Through my personal work I have researched Steve Moxon: The Woman Racket. Men rush about testing themselves against each other to achieve status – not infrequently to destruction – Many men fall by the wayside in some way, leaving those surviving and successful to be the higher status guys that women correspondingly choose to have babies with. This is why men on average die several years earlier than do women and why many men are left without mates. Men are expendable. As men come to realize this evolutionary and societal fact we are becoming less willing to participate.

    That women are downtrodden and men rule the roost is the line we’ve all swallowed for decades now. It’s the crucial underpinning of ‘political correctness’. What if it turned out that actually women were not oppressed after all?

    It is anyway fairly obvious if you take off the feminist, politically correct, tinted glasses we all now wear, and look at how most men are faring, rather than just focusing on the ‘top dogs’. There are always overwhelmingly men at the top, but that’s because men battle each other so fiercely, not that women are somehow oppressed. If that were the case, then how come at the bottom you find an overwhelming majority of men? And why do we view men in the middle as relative failures when we don’t see women in this way?

    Other insights that might help explain what men are trying to communicate come from Richard Stivers: Shades of Loneliness. In this book he describes technological society’s inevitable creation of fragmented personalities, which leads to neurosis, schizophrenia… it’s one of the prices we pay for technology. This modern technological society combined with other factors such as family and the individual’s responses, produces what has been termed the “technological personality”—lonely individuals, torn with stress and riddled with fear which, in turn, reinforce the loneliness.

    This widespread loneliness has grown pathological and fulfilled itself in various forms of paranoia and schizophrenia. Whether the erosion of character and moral community ought be blamed on the machines which reflect and stimulate people’s overblown desires and sense of entitlement or blamed on the people themselves for their neglect of their friends, families and needy fellows in their inane attachment to those machines is a question left to the reader.

45. Hey, I hesitate to pimp another website on anybody’s blog (feel free to delete if this constitutes as Spam), but I just want to say that these LoveShy/TFL guys don’t represent everyone out there who has an apparent inability to get a romantic partner. http://incel.myonlineplace.org It’s the We’re proactive and try to keep the whining and blaming to a minimum, we don’t tolerate misogyny, and we are absolutely open to women, because this problem by no means is limited to men. We go by the term “involuntary celibacy” because it’s a catch-all that covers everyone who seems to be unable to get a romantic partner. Anyways, if this is Spam, I apologize; nix it if you have to.

46. These True Forced Loniness people are wacked they don,t even know or understand what the fuck they are talking about. It has nothing to do with feminism. or women forcing men to be alone. It has much more to do with this fucked up ecconomy. And the way this type of ecconomy has evolved over the past few decades. Plus all the fucked up men that have done horrible things to women.. For one in this type of ecconomy people don,t have time or the energy to interact with each other. It cost allot of money just to go to the right places to meet the women you want to meet. We all have to work all these fucking long god forsaken hours for less. Just to make ends meet. And still be behind. The women that happen to be single or also on the same boat. Plus most women live in fear Just look at all the horrible things fucked guys have done to them. Also these jerks that are part of the True Forced Loniness movement tend to be very conservitive in there view points. It is your ultra conservitives that happen be in certain key positions of power. That have caused these problems. If we had an ecconomy that was in favor of the average American working person and didn,t have these fucked up guys rape abduct and kill women. It would be much easier for the average guy to out and meet women. So if your a guy that is single. You don,t know all that many people. Don,t have the right network connection.You are out of luck. We are all on the same boat. And getting hurt by the very same system. The reason it,s hard to talk to women in public places like coffee shops supermarkets. Is because they are afraid to talk to strange men. Most women are very busy trying to servive pay there Rent, Electric bill, Car payment, Auto insurence payment, Health insurence payment, Put food on there table, Pay high taxes, Plus if happen to be a single women with young kids. It,s even much more complex. And to top it off living in fear of violent crime among other things. It is the things I mentioned that cause true forced loniness. It,s not the womens fault It,s not the feminist movments fault. It,s the way things are socially stuctured do to our fucked up US and global ecconomy.

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