Woman In Iowa Arrested For Falling Down the Stairs While Pregnant

1. That of course would be to venomlash’s tea party.

2. Oh, of course. I’ll tell my girlfriend we may be expecting some guests from the West Coast, but she should be okay with it. The more the merrier!
   But I may need to buy some new pants first. That damn pony!

3. why did no one just keep this lady overnight for observation? she was having thoughts about harming herself and her baby, right? not a crime, a problem. lots of women are super depressed during their pregnancies, much less ones that just fell down the stairs and are unemployed , single and have other kids to feed. keep her overnight. give her some anti anxities that won’t hurt the baby. everyone yelping for hte baby, healthy mommies make healthier babies.

4. Congrats, TVDinner! Now you have to pull an Elenechos and stash your spouse and baby at the Starbucks a block from the next Slog Happy so O. Monique and I can go ooh and aaah over your cutlet.

5. Margaret Atwood wrote about all of this.

6. And how many of you would step in to help this poor woman and her (current) 2 kids out?

   Answer: none.

   Seattle Druggos talk big. Do little.

7. sallybobally, any social worker or psych counselor worth his or her salt (credentialed or otherwise) would have been able to figure out that even observation would have been unnecessary with brief dialogue with Ms. Taylor (after all, she reported to the ER, herself), unless she was an immanent harm to herself or others.

   I’m familiar more with California law, so Iowa law could be slightly different, but immanent harm is a fairly common standard.

   Twenty years ago, I would expect a doctor to panic and call the police rather than consult with a social worker, a staff psychiatrist or heck, a chaplain before notifying law enforcement authorities. Police automatically seize control of a situation, whether warranted or not. It’s usually their job to do so.

   Ten years ago, I would have expected this kind of panicked response only in more rural or religious-centric areas than Des Moines.

   In 20-fucking-10, there’s no excuse.

   Again, I have to re-ask the question Has there been a rash in recent years of attempts of maternal feticide? What’s with the laws?

   Thanks for the invite samktg, venomlash. I have some spare pants which might fit. If they don’t we can feed them to the pony.

8. I’m sorry Harvy Danger, or maybe I should pick up U-238’s Alleged trope. I’m sorry Alleged (56), but teabaggers are not invited to the tea party.

9. Lennon was right. Woman is the n-word of the world.

10. @30 i’m pretty sure there has to be an infant present for infanticide to occur. fetuses are not infants.

11. I want to send used tampons to all of these people. WTF. Why does it suddenly feel like 1850??

12. I dunno Uriel 238, i like to err on the side of caution. you hear buskets of stories every day about “she was mentally evaluated, then sent away, and now shes DEAD!” and it seems so preventable…if nothing else, give the lady a break for the night. also the ice at the hospital. can i get a hell yeah for the ice chips they give you at the hospital?

    and i’m sorry i didn’t congratulate you before , mama tvdinner. congrats for your giant ovaries in delivering ON THE FLOOR,DRUG FREE!!!!!! someone hand this lady a bucket of hospital ice!

13. Aw shucks. Thanks for all the good wishes, you guys.

    @28: The home birth was very much planned, although almost didn’t happen because I developed preeclampsia. I was, in fact, hospitalized on Friday, but the good doctor said I could go home and try to have the chicken cutlet this weekend under my midwife’s “immaculate” (his word, not mine) care.

    I’ll say this, though: there was a point when I was screaming to be taken back to the hospital, “BECAUSE I WANT SOME FUCKING DRUGS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!” I also have to figure out how, exactly, to apologize to my dear friend who assisted the birth for biting her on the shoulder at one point. *shame*

    Hallmark doesn’t make greeting cards for that.

    @54: I am not above such behavior. I do, however, live in Spokane, which is a complicating factor. One of these days, though, I’ll make it over in time for a Slog Happy.

14. Since most states can’t actually make abortion illegal, and since most people are uncomfortable with women having any kind of autonomy at all, the right (fright?) wing has figured out that the scarier Thought Police approach might actually be as effective. Or is it even that sophisticated of a plot? Perhaps it just came naturally to the local police to view the woman as a vessel rather than a person. If that’s the case, it’s even scarier. It means that women’s rights are still at such a superficial level that the powers-that-be view any progress made by women as a privilege. This reminds me of the time Arnold shut down all the women’s shelters here in California. Women seem just as expendable as ever in the year 2010.

15. sallybobally, the buckets / baskets of stories are the rare exceptions, and just in case policies wind up treating adults like children and (in this case) civilians as outlaws.

    We risk giving adults the benefit of the doubt every day (such as allowing them access to car-keys), thereby entrusting to them their own lives but the lives and well being of those around them. and, yes, people sometimes die from this, even when all involved meant well. Most of the time, through, people not only live but thrive with the additional responsibility.

    And we really do prefer the personal liberty over the additional modicum of safety.

16. Happy belated birth-day, TVDinner! I won’t be asking any intrusive questions (HIPAA rules and all), but congrats and best wishes. And if you get a new carpet or manly floor scrubbing out of the deal too, so much the better!

17. Is there just no way that the nurse and other collaborators can be sued? No charges that can be filed against them instead, or at least some licenses that can be revoked?

18. damn, sorry for the broken tag directly above…

19. fixed?

20. this story inspired me to throw myself down the stairs just in case i was pregnant. it hurt.

    oh, @43, i hope you write books, because you clearly have an amazing talent in story telling. really. if you don’t write for a living you should look into a career change. thanks for making me laugh!

21. @70: Thank you very much. I plan to go into the museum sciences, but I do enjoy writing in my free time, and am working on My Novel, the sort that takes for friggin’ EVER. The stupidity emitted by people like Loveschild just gives me bucketloads of inspiration, so I must credit her to some extent in this case.

22. I like Iowa,I like many states too. Illinois sucks cock.

23. I skipped a lot of these, so apologies if there’s redundancy here.

    First: yes, if this story happened exactly as it is presented, this is fucked up. No one should be locked up for 48 hours because they admit to considering an abortion in the past and accidentally fell down the stairs.

    HOWEVER – a lot of suicidal gestures do end up in the ER. They take a bottle of pills, then get nervous, change their minds and show up. Or slit their wrists, wait a bunch of hours, then…off to the triage nurse. There’s usually some tearful admissions, and then sometimes…they get all angry and insist they want to go home NOW.

    If this patient did hurl herself down the stairs in some not-very-effective dramatic suicidal gesture, and if she conveyed that impression to the medical staff, then they’re obligated to get psychiatric clearance before they can discharge her home. If the patient is determined to be a danger to herself or her pregnancy, the psychiatrist is obligated to report the case to the police – just as if she had announced that she was thinking about strangling the infant in the house next door to hers. HIPPA goes out the window when someone else’s life is at stake.

    Now, whether a late-term viable fetus deserves the same legal protections as a newborn infant is one of those weird ethical issues that should be debated separately. Not going there. However, keep in mind that there’s always two sides to every story. I don’t know what happened here, but it’s possible that the spectacle we’re hearing about is heavily slanted by this nice lady’s attorney. The medical staff may have truly thought she was unstable and a threat to her own safety. You never know.

24. The trend of the recent pregnancy articles reminds me of an Ursula LeGuin short story – wish I could remember the title.
    A couple of things that struck me. 1) Christine Taylor had already considered and rejected the option of abortion. She had considered adoption and made the choice to keep the child. Considering a difficult situation from all angles before making a reasoned choice should not be a crime. 2) What the heck happened to the two other kids while mom was in jail?

25. 73- thank you. There’s been a rash of articles like this lately, but when you dig a little, you learn there was more to the story than initially reported. An example- “The Police Put a 8-year-old Kid in Handcuffs!”…because he flipped out, weighed 130 lbs and stabbed his teacher in the neck with a pencil.

    Much talk about abortion lately, all with the same, endless, never-settled talking points. Dial it down, folks. It’s still legal, Utah and their silly laws notwithstanding.

26. Whatever way you look at it, this is a horrifying situation.

27. 73 FTW

    75
    “when you dig a little, you learn there was more to the story than initially reported. …”

    business as usual on Slog:

    HomoLiberal Hate Mongering Demagoguery, Inc.

28. @63- She should apologize for not having put ketchup on her shoulder first.

    Congrats! Now get some sleep.

29. Wow TV Dinner, you ROCK!! Have you figured out how to nurse and slog at the same time? Congratulations! (And it’s women’s code that nobody ever remembers or repeats what you said and did in labor, OK?)

30. Congrats TV Dinner! My wife has already said she wants a spinal. I do not argue with Mrs. Jim.

31. I hope she doesn’t come home from jail with MRSA!

32. It would have been too ironic if she had been assaulted in prison and lost the baby…

33. TVDinner,

    Tis true about the code. I made some pretty interesting statements while in labor and in my defense both of my children were 9 lbs and 2 feet long, and most of those statements involved the window being closed. The intensity of pain was surprising, but I don’t regret natural or the fact that my two watermelons were so large (they easily slept 4-6 hours from moment one).

    And, they are still long. My ‘littlest’ will be 12 years old tomorrow and appears to be starting his big growth spurt and puberty, he is 5′ 5″ now and has had a sudden uptake in his food consumption. He and his sister are always amazing me, and before long they will both be staring down at me. Cest la vie…

    Welcome to the journey, it is a one heck of a ride.

34. Kim,
    I am being obnoxiously nosy, but when you say you don’t regret natural, is it simply because all turned out well or are there any advantages to natural birth compared to epidural? All birth stories I have heard so far (no first hand experience) praised epidural like it’s the best thing since sliced bread, so I’m curious to hear reasons for opposite opinion.

35. Tiare,

    I don’t regret it, because I was immediately up and moving around. I felt great. My children were awake and alert. I have no first hand experience with epidurals to know what they are like, nor have I been in the room with someone who has had an epidural to observe.

    My theory is women should do what is best for them. Labor is hard, and they should feel free to do what they fill will benefit them and the child(ren). They have a right to their birth plan. My plan included soaking in a warm tub and walking (attempting to dance) around … I thought gravity would come in handy.

    They tell me I have a high pain tolerance, I always thought I had a high tolerance for physical pain, so I decided to go natural, and when I could not take the pain anymore (at about 18 hours in with my first) they informed me that the “window was closed”. My second child arrived fast and furious, there was no option, but having done it before I knew that I’d be fine.

    We have no plans to have a third, but if things change I would plan to go natural again.

    Hope that helps.

36. Glad to hear you had a good experience both times! I guess when everything goes well every birthing option is great, so your account sounds pretty much like those of my friends… I won’t try to make up my mind yet as pregnancy is still not an option, I am just doing some early research. Thank you for your input, I appreciate it!

37. Yeek, the thing is, the situation went from a nurse to a general MD to the police. No psych personnel were attached to assess Ms. Taylor.

    If I saw in there a psych professional, or (as I mentioned above) even a chaplain was consulted to assess her emotional stability, I could maybe consider the right thing was done.

    But no. The authorities panicked for the fetus and disregarded the mother, and, I suspect, her not-unborn children.

38. OK since I had 3 babies sans pain meds and was pretty darn pleased with most of the ride but then had an epidural when I had a tubal ligation — I am compelled to add my 2 cents. First, yes, each woman and baby will make their way as best they can and all is well that ends well so three cheers for informed choice for all. That said — I REALLY didn’t like the epidural at all and had a hard time fighting off panic when I realized I was unable to move. Funny thing is I used my “birthing breathing” to get through the epidural just as I did to get through squeezing out those 9 pounders. Plus the recovery from the epidural took hours and I was barfy and cold and generally miserable. I have heard the stories about how great some woman find that pain block so I could be an oddball.

39. Yeek- of COURSE she was unstable- that’s why she fell down the stairs, right?

40. In her shoes, I’d get a late-term abortion just to spite them.

41. 87 –

    You’re right, it’d be great to have a psychiatrist on call. Many ERs don’t, because psychiatrists refuse to take call like a lot of specialists these days. I have no idea if that was the situation here. However, the law is clear: ANY physician who suspects that a patient has tried to harm a ‘child’ is obligated to report the case. It’s not just for psychiatrists – I guess my original post wasn’t clear about that. ER staff are well-versed regarding this obligation, because that’s where so many ‘abuse’ cases first appear.

    Some older ER doctors may be generalists (internal medicine), but most of them now are certified in Emergency Medicine – a specialty with its own residency. This residency includes training in psychiatry, and in a pinch when there is no psychiatrist available, ER-certified MDs are allowed to make a psychiatric assessment of a patient.

    It puts the doctor in a tough position: he or she knows that the late-term fetus is protected by the law as if it were newborn infant, and that this woman may have other kids at home. If the doc discharges her home and she harms herself, or injures the pregnancy, or hurts one of the other kids, then the doc gets hung out to dry. The deadbeat dad, grandparents, etc. can sue for wrongful death over the loss of a late term pregnancy, and the patient herself can sue as well. License gone. Trashed on the news. But, if the doc notifies the police, then he or she gets trashed on the news anyway for being mean to pregnant lady (and probably sued anyway, just for the hell of it). It sucks. You just can’t win.

    What is also worth noting here is that the decision to arrest the patient was made by the police, not the physician. No doctor can “force” an arrest. Once the doc has ‘medically cleared’ the patient, and even if he or she feels the patient is no longer suicidal, the police may have chosen to arrest her because her ‘reckless endangerment’ of the ‘child.’

42. Oh – one more thing: a doctor cannot knowingly discharge a minor patient home to an abusive environment, and a doctor cannot discharge home a dangerous patient and THEN call the police and child protective services. They have to do their best to prevent the patient from leaving, or to verify that endangered children have been relocated to a safe environment before the ‘abuser’ can leave.

    It’s REALLY weird in this case because the ‘minor’ in question (the fetus) cannot easily be relocated from the environment it lives in (mom’s uterus). What a disasterous, fucked-up situation for everyone.

43. Ok, is it just me or does it seem likea really stupid idea to confide in a nurse you (probably) dont know that at some point you wanted to abort your baby and now you “happen” to be in a hospital because you “oops” fell down the stairs.

    “Help officer, my car has been stolen, …by the way …I never really liked it and and I have some debt that I need to pay off.” DUH.

    Also, a doctor should call the cops if they suspect abuse, criminal behavior etc. How would you feel if the guy that came in with a broken nose “confided” in the doctor that he received the injury raping somebody? Shouldn’t the doctor “break” his patient confidentiality then?!

44. dr’s and nurses have the obligation to report worries of abuse. on the other hand, there’s the possibility that this woman could sue for breach of confidentiality.

45. Most ER MDs are residents.

    Almost all ERs (certainly one in Des Fucking Moines, a dense urban region) has a social worker or a chaplain on staff.

    No, he made a premature decision, and she suffered for it.

46. 95 –

    Neither social workers or chaplains are considered qualified to evaluate a patient for suicidal intent or exclude a suspected psychiatric diagnosis. I don’t think there’s a single state with that law on the books.

    While most ER docs (and psychiatrists on call) are residents, there is always an ER attending available to make the final call. If there is doubt about the safety of discharging a potentially suicidal or homicidal patient, *especially* with children involved, the law is absolutely clear: the physician must detain the patient, against their will if necessary, or if unable to do so must notify child protective services and the police.

    I’m not saying this law is necessarily right or just, but that’s what the medical staff has to work with. Is it possible the doctor made the wrong call? Sure. But really, from what little we’ve heard about this case, I think it’s impossible to say that for sure. I think I more reasonable approach would be to try and consider both perspectives instead of immediately condemning the ER staff as wrong.

47. uh…just a thought here…generally when you detain someone for psych reasons you keep them IN THE HOSPITAL. if you’re hospital doesn’t have a psych ward, you send them by ambulance to one that does. then someone qualified gets the chance to evaluate them further. if you truly think someone is thinking of harming themselves, regardless of whether they have another person inside them who may also be harmed, it is a PSYCH issue, not a crime. so EVEN if the story is incomplete, and the medical staff really did have info to indicate that she may infact have intentionally tried to harm herself, HAVING HER ARRESTED WAS NOT THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE.

48. @97-That’s the entire problem with these laws. The law doesn’t care about whether she gets hurt, only the fetus. So, instead of providing her with assistance (someone to talk through decisions with, someone who might be able to refer her to outside social supports), they imprison her to protect the fetus.

    It’s stupid, dangerous and backwards to have a society at war with women for the sake of their babies.

49. Yeek, as dreadpiratepuck notes, she was thrown into the pen for attempted feticide, not put on psychiatric observation.

    She was treated like a criminal. Not a patient.

    I would say the doctor failed to take appropriate action once he called the police.

    I would say the police failed to take appropriate action as well. I have a tendency to expect that of them, though.

    Ironically, both are about equally trained to evaluate someone (that is, as first responders), as are contemporary chaplains (which would have been, at least, a second opinion). A social worker usually is better trained in the psych department; it comes with the letters.

    If it is as you say it is in Des Moines, that Social Workers aren’t allowed to evaluate regarding immanent danger yet general practitioners are, that’s fucked up.

    But regardless, the well being of the mother wasn’t considered. This whole situation is full of fail.

50. Two words… The BAS****DS! Where was the compassion, the support needed to help this woman? The human race disapoints me sometimes, truly.

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