More rantings about a man named Weiner.
Are garter belts inherently sexist, and is there a male equivalent?
Dan interviews Ogi Ogas, co-author of “A Billion Wicked Thoughts” in which two computational neuroscientists embark on the largest study of sexuality since Kinsey.
And more.
206-201-2720
Today’s episode is brought to you by AdamandEve.com. Get 50 percent off almost any item when you enter “Savage” at checkout.
This episode is brought to you by FyreTV- the ultimate adult video experience. Sign up for FREE at www.FyreTV.com
To comment on what you’re heard on the show, go to www.thestranger.com/lovecast.
I think the man who was looking for the male equivalent to lingerie should ask his wife an important question: What do you find sexier boxers or briefs. That is a good starting point. Following up with what part of a man’s body do you really like. He might discover something as simple as red boxer briefs or a jock strap would meet her criteria of lingerie for men.
As for directing him to a “fetish” gear website was a mistake. You should have directed HER to the website. Have HER pick out what she wants him to wear. Isn’t that kinda the point of lingerie and his call? If he wants her to wear something special for him, she should get to decide what he wears for her.
I think you need Rebecca Watson back. That book about what turns people on is basically pseudoscience. Scientists have almost universally been calling the “research” sloppy, poorly done and biased. Anywho, you’re not a scientist Dan, so I’ll forgive you. 😛
Yeah I have heard a lot of bad things on both Ogi and Ogi’s book. He insulted a lot of people with a very poorly-designed survey. Look it up.
Has the “gut feeling” woman been clear and direct about what her boundaries are and how fast she’d prefer to go? The guy may think he’s gotten a perfectly positive response and a green light to take charge. If they’ve only been dating a week he may not know her “uncomfortable” from her “into it” looks unless she’s direct. It’s perfectly reasonable for her to want to slow things down and feel some sort of understanding apart from the sex, but he’s probably not going to guess that.
Ogi mainly took a bunch of internet surveys and used them to “prove” 1950’s gender roles and male-dom/female-sub essentialism. He also wouldn’t know the ethics of scientific studies if they danced before him wearing only nipple pasties.
Lay off the “science,” Dan!
Oh the “science” can be true too… the thing is that how we behave openly and how we behave “hidden” are kinda dependent on the same things – the way we where raised.
re: the testicular cancer guy: — yes, maybe the big C has made him reconsider important elements of his life, including the GF — but isn’t it also possible that his hormones/chemistry are being affected by chemotherapy, or however they’re treating his cancer? major hormonal shifts DRASTICALLY affect how you feel about everything – yourself, love, life, your mate, the sun, birds, rain, Chopin, not to mention directly determining how much desire you have for sex, bonding, closeness — he said his feelings ‘disappeared’ and he wants them to come back – sounds pretty chemical to me
#4- I was thinking the same thing. Listening to her, it didn’t sound like she was clear and it also sounded like she was drunk during both encounters.
From how I understood it, for their second rendezvous, she essentially booty called him in the middle of the night and asked him to come over because she was “horny.” Now, this sounds to me like she was interested in sex. This is not to say that if she said no or that it was going too fast that he had a pass because she called him, but he may have misread her signs and signals. If you want to date him, ask him out on a date and maybe go sans alcohol this time?
@2, @5, I’m with you: I’m incredibly disappointed Dan featured this book and Ogas on the podcast. Dan is not nearly skeptical enough about their ridiculous evolutionary psychology claims. These people did surveys without academic affiliation or without IRB approval, which is deeply unethical. Also, their use of terms like “she-male” are offensive. Dan, you really should have on reputable scientists to rebut this nonsense.
Nope, even the Amish are sexting: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/c…
I love your column Dan and I found some pleasant irony while listening to your column today and then looking at the current news. It turns out that even the Amish probably can’t run for congress in the future because they disseminate explicit photos too. Here is a link to the article, but in a nutshell, an Amish guy was sexting (including pictures) a 12 year old girl and was caught in a sting when he drove his buggy to meet said girl for sex. Of course this is much worse than Anthony Weiner, but I loved the irony and thought you should know about it!
http://gawker.com/5814040/even-the-amish…
Everybody else is talking about scientific validity but I- just want to defend lingerie. I don’t see why if you wore a nice dress or suit, something equally aesthetically pleasing shouldn’t go under it- even if nobody else ever sees it. I mean this just strikes me as basic matching. This goes for all genders. It doesn’t have to be over the top- there is a wide range between large white cotton and a translucent g string with “slut” written in sparkle paint over the crotch.
Also, gartered stockings are not inherently sexist- they’re inherently hygienic. Panty hose and the internal temperature thereof are NOT your friend.
I was going to say that I wished you had let him get to the subject of women’s fantasies. Now I’m glad that you didn’t.
Exhibit A: http://eruthros.dreamwidth.org/273840.ht…
Exhibit B: http://www.fanhistory.com/wiki/SurveyFai…
Etc: http://linkspam.dreamwidth.org/5800.html
tl;dr – Ogas buys into the social lie that “women like flowers and romance and don’t like looking at dicks – it’s biology,” and consistently ignored what his potential research subjects tried to tell him.
Straight men may find older women attractive (MILFS, cougars, etc), but gay men are primarily turned off by older men. That’s not going to change anytime soon, thankfully.
Ogas does have a really bad history, he shouldn’t have been invited on in the first place. And once he was invited, he made some problematic claims on the show. I agree with those of you arguing that he needs to be A LOT more skeptical of the evo psych crows: http://facilegestures.com/2011/06/23/sav…
Ogi Ogas is a terrible scientist and a terrible person to talk about sexuality. Actual quote from him: “Well, slash is kind of the female equivalent of the straight male interest in transsexuals.”
@8–very much agreed, and I would like to take that further, because this might be the most infuriating advice I’ve ever heard Dan give. YES, facing one’s own mortality is almost sure to have profound effects in any number of areas, which is PRECISELY why one shouldn’t irresponsibly assume that his emotional distance is a sign that he wants out of the relationship. There are about a hundred other reasons that are AT LEAST as valid. For example:
*Maybe he feels that he can’t be an equal partner right now, and doesn’t want to ask more than he’s able to give–guilt is certainly not a rational response to a cancer diagnosis, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a common one.
*Maybe the surgery ON HIS TESTICLES has left him feeling sexually insecure .
*Maybe he feels self-conscious because she’s seen him in such a vulnerable place so early in their relationship, and he needs some time to move past that.
*Maybe he’s FUCKING DEPRESSED, because of the CANCER, and is withdrawing BECAUSE THAT’S SOMETHING DEPRESSED PEOPLE OFTEN DO.
Sure, this major shakeup could have caused him to re-evaluate his life and decide that he no longer wants her in it, but that’s just a guess–it’s like Dan pulled an answer out of a hat and decided to focus on that one.
Furthermore, what’s the deal with the implication that because she’s not the one with cancer, she has no business being upset and confused about this? Critical illness has a huge impact on patients AND their loved ones. That’s why support groups exist, and it sounds like she might be a good candidate for one–this is a big deal for her, too, and she has a lot to sort through.
Sorry that this turned into a rant, but I was just enraged to hear such a serious question handled with such glibness and lack of sensitivity.
For the girl whose boyfriend is recovering from testicular cancer! I don’t know anything about testicular cancer, but if there’s any relationship between testicular cancer and testosterone production, please go to http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-ar…. Their episode on testosterone is fascinating – especially relevant is the piece about the man who had a medical problem where he had no testosterone. His description really sounds similar to what you described – he lost all kinds of desire, to the point where he couldn’t even make decisions about what he wanted to eat. Listen to this. If it sounds familiar to you, suggest that he get his testosterone levels checked. I think Dan’s advice here is overly cynical.
Great advice to the woman who got a bad vibe from the dude she met in the bar, though.
For the girl whose boyfriend is recovering from testicular cancer! I don’t know anything about testicular cancer, but if there’s any relationship between testicular cancer and testosterone production, please go to http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-ar…. Their episode on testosterone is fascinating – especially relevant is the piece about the man who had a medical problem where he had no testosterone. His description really sounds similar to what you described – he lost all kinds of desire, to the point where he couldn’t even make decisions about what he wanted to eat. Listen to this. If it sounds familiar to you, suggest that he get his testosterone levels checked. I think Dan’s advice here is overly cynical.
Great advice to the woman who got a bad vibe from the dude she met in the bar, though.
oh, puck, you’ve obviously NEVER met Mr. Poe.
Ok, I’ve only listened to the into rant, but I had to add my two cents immediately. I’d happily bet Dan that the next Congressional sex scandal is yet another ‘mandal’ – and the one after that and any others that come up before the year is out. Women are held to a much higher standard when running for and keeping office. It’s hard enough getting in the door; no woman (in the near future) is willing to risk everything for diaper fantasies and sexting, because Donkey or Elephant, she’d have zero chance of keeping her job. If I’m wrong, I’ll get you a fancy cribbage board…. but when I’m proven right, I want a shout out on the Lovecast.
Sorry – “intro” rant
Is there a volume adjustment on the podcast player?
thx
Really disappointed to see Dan take on Olgas’s claims unblinkingly. Five minutes on google would have turned a swathe of critique on both Olgas’ findings and his research methods.
re: male lingerie
I have found that a smoking jackets and silk boxers are a nice way to lounge. Try Googling “Lounge Wear”. Finding anything is a bit rare, but it is a start.
I also agree with the comment above, have your woman take a look at sites to see what she likes.
My two cents (late, but hopefully better than never): I am unbelievably disappointed that Dan would give a clown like Ogas a platform to propagate his gender-essentialist evo-psych tripe. Ogas and Gaddam have published no peer reviewed research involving human sexuality, and their book is little more than an extended exercise in confirmation bias and gross overgeneralization, padded out with plenty of “wink-wink, nudge-nudge” chattiness.
Are there, on aggregate, significant differences between male and female sexuality that have their roots in our evolved biology? Yeah, probably. Is there an “abyss separating the divergent desires of men and women”? Are men universally equipped with “desire software [that] is biologically and socially programmed to be dominant” and “brains [that] are designed to objectify females”? Do women (lesbians included!) “prefer the voices of dominant men, the scent of dominant men, the movement and gait of dominant men, and the facial features of dominant men” ? Is “the urge to feel irresistible . . . a primal component of female sexuality, as basic as a man’s urge to chase and seduce”? HOLY FUCK NO. (All quotes are from Ogas and Gaddam’s book, A Billion Wicked Thoughts. Yeah, I just fucking wish I were making this shit up.)
SCENE A:
Man: “Honey, would you wear sexy lingerie for me?”
Woman: “Sure, sweetie, whatever turns you on! I’m your lover, and I want to please you.”
SCENE B:
Man: “Honey, would you wear sexy lingerie for me?”
Woman: “No. I find it degrading and insulting. However, if you will degrade and insult yourself in my eyes too, that will make us even, and then I’ll consider it.”
Doesn’t anyone else find something very troubling about scene B?
HE is willing to investigate a man’s equivalent in order to satisfy HER. She, on the other hand, was NOT even willing to consider wearing it in the first place to satisfy him. I think this man needs a new lover who is on the same page (as giving and game) as he is. Right now, what he has is a sexuo-political adversary, not a lover.
This is why some men leave America in order to date women in other countries.
Dan! Did you or did you not just have a talk with Jen McCreight about softball questions for people who deserve a little skepticism? Sheesh.
I realize that this is a while back, but I cannot resist.
On the Ogas book.
Let me begin with a George Carlin joke about what bullshit the “self-motivation” industry is. He points to Christian conservatives as the downside of being “highly-motivated”–their level of organization, belief in hierarchy and zealous determination to advance their way of life mean that they have more visibility and power than religious moderates or non-believers.
So, if you were to collect “data” from Christian conservative websites about the “natural” religious beliefs and practices of “all” human beings, you’d be making some serious errors of extrapolation from jump.
Likewise, this study. If you visit fetish sites and porn sites (and i’m fans of both) that are already concentrated to serve an unusually active and quite specific niche, you are really in fallacious argumentative waters when you claim to learn about all of human sexuality.
To put it more simply: not all Harry Potter fans write fanfic.
Oh, and #28… thanks for that post. I was gonna say something similar. I wish Dan would have addressed the girl’s fucked up pseudo-feminism rather than simply point to the existence of male fetish gear.
The idea that they will be “equal” if he does something “degrading” is seriously twisted and unloving logic. You do things to turn each other on to make each other happy. If you can’t be GGG, don’t be. But don’t make someone you love do something “degrading” to somehow even the score–that’s hateful psycho bullshit.
Please stop slamming evo psych because of a shitty dishonest researcher like Ogi. I say dishonest because the claims he lays out that his team is the only group since Kinsey to study desire is pure bullshit. Many GOOD researchers – some of them evolutionary psychologists – have done a lot of work in the area, including that directly measuring male and female sexual response to various stimuli. This work includes documentation of female response to a variety of stimuli in line with evolutionary thinking but having nothing to do with “traditional values”.
Most ev psych people AREN’T pushing an agenda, let alone a gender-normative or judeochristian one! It’s a shame that shitty researchers like this one are allowed to give them all a bad name.
Also, his claim of being the first to use the internet? Also bullshit. That started in the late 90’s.