Comments

1
Don't take it personally, they most probably would’ve made the same joke if you had been cis.
Gays who like anal think all gays like anal, much like straight men who like big breasts think all straight men like big breasts, etc. It's called projection. Unfortunately (for me, at least), I can attest that not all gay men like anal.
2
I don't even know if "gayness" is relevant here. Straight guys like to fuck ass too, though we have less access to it than our gay brothers. If there's someone a guy is attracted to, and that person has orifices, the guy would like to fuck those orifices.
3
“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”

a k a

get used to it.
4
As a gay with a bio-d, I can attest that having a bio-d is no assurance that your opinions on sexuality will be taken credibly by other gays.
5
Straight guys are just as fascinated by a butthole. And most oversensitive when it comes up in conversation.
6
Stephen Fry does not have anal sex. That's at least one celebrity gay man who's not about ass play.
7
@2 - yeah, but all of them?
8
I think Dan is right. Though not strictly true, there is a widely held perception that all gay men like assfucking, even within the gay community. And I wouldn't take it personally. I've heard gay guys joke about that kind of thing many, many times. I'm almost certain they would have had the exact conversation whether or not you were present, and whether or not you were cis.
9
There's some projection going on right here cause as a straight man (who has tried it) I can attest wholeheartedly that not all straight men like to fuck ass.

And, I dare say that many straight men who have an interest in fucking ass have never actually had the opportunity to do it, so in those cases you can't really say they like to fuck ass, you can only say they're interested in trying it.
10
@7: Subject to the same "rounding up" point Dan made.
11
I remember working for an insurance sales guy about 20 years ago. We had a pair of clients who were a gay male couple. HIV was the big thing back then, and we needed them to sign a "we got tested, we're clean" form in order to get life insurance. "But we don't do ... THAT ... thing!" they said, and were more upset that people might think they do, than that they might be HIV+.

I moved on, changed jobs. I miss those guys.
12
@4 - Totally agree with you. Even as a gay man with a bio-d who worked for gay media and have lots of experience talking with gay men about their experiences, I've had plenty of people -- gay and straight -- tell me I don't know anything about gay men.

Here's my personal feeling about anal sex. In general, it's a pain in the ass. So to speak. It's more nuisance than it's worth.

I've great great anal sex, but even during periods when I was engaging in it frequently, I did other things more often. With one or two notable exceptions, I never engage in anal the first time I have sex with someone new. I just can't relax enough with them, not as a bottom nor as a top.

I know plenty of gay men who think it's not really sex if it's not anal. (Sort of the inverse of the proper Christian or Mormon straight high schoolers who only engage in anal so that they can still claim to be virgins.) I know plenty who are exclusively tops or bottoms, but most these days seem to be varying degrees of versatile.

And I know plenty who just don't do anal at all. Some tried, didn't like it, don't want to do it anymore. Others just don't want to try. I'd guess of the people who've talked to me about it, maybe 25% are in the never or no more anal camp and some additional percentage are in the maybe again but not often camp.
13
It doesn't mean he was gay. A lot of straight guys like to watch their buddies fuck. I know I do!
14
Yes, lots of gay men don't like ass fucking, it's a varied world out there. That's why it's good to check another man's erotic hopes and expectations before getting naked with him.

"Good sex" covers so many options for men that not checking ahead of time will sometimes lead to confusion or disappointment. You may want to just snuggle and kiss, while he may want you to piss on him while swatting his balls and calling him "Daddy's little Princess".

Seriously, work on getting comfortable talking about sex beforehand.

I remember the tall, muscular, hot man who dragged me home shortly after I came out - and who was aggressively, intently into frottage, which I didn't even have a name for at that point. Twenty minutes after we hopped in bed he was out in the kitchen making coffee and I was confused, frustrated, and had a very slippery belly. What was that all about? I had to do some research before I figured out what had happened, since we didn't talk about it, either before or after.
15
However, all homophobes think about gay men assfucking all the time.
16
@15 Yes, well. Of course homophobes are fixated on butt sex. Of course. That's exactly where they'd start if Satan ever let them off the leash, and they know it.
17
Does nobody tell trans men just how basic and stupid men are beforehand?
18
Lot of projection, here. I'm just keeping it real, but you took everything very personal, OP. Didn't sound like anybody was singling you out. Sounded more like a group of guys bullshitting. Not all guys--gay or straight--like ass. And that's okay! It's what makes the spectrum of human sexuality interesting and exciting. I also don't believe anybody exists on that spectrum at any place by themselves; none of us are alone in our sexuality.

I suspect a bio-D does factor into this more than anybody has posted about thus far. The nerves and sensation are, bluntly, relevant. Not the only pertinent factor, but relevant nonetheless. Otherwise, it seems that men with a bio-D using a strap-on would be more prevalent.

19
@17. No excuses. I lost count of how many times Dan wrote ass and asses. They're a funny mob, ( cis) men.
LW, writing material? Where are the trans * writers? Must be a lot of comedy routines available for either sex. All the archetypes of cis people looked at thru new eyes.
LW, my sons talk rubbish in front of me. Kids next door are worse. I find a good slap to the head can sometimes work.
Or, just stand your ground. Speak up to these ignorant, to Dan's eyes sweetly ignorant, men and state your preferences.
20
This letter made me realise that trans people have to learn practically overnight how men and women, whatever their orientation, talk around each other when the other gender isn't present. For some people (not all) it must come as a shock.
21
Slightly different take here: LW is a relative newcomer to being male, and isn't even sure he is gay. He's entering a pre-existing culture as the newcomer, yet feels entitled to correct them on the norms of their own culture. (That there is variety and deviation from the norm within the culture doesn't mean it's not a norm.)
22
all those big, blond minnesota guys are bottoms?
23
@20, maybe, although if LW was socialized as a woman before transitioning, my guess is he must not be very surprised at all. It seems in this case the problem has to do with broad generalizing and people not being able to understand that not everyone likes what they like. And LW not being able to take a comment lightly, probably.
24
Stupid question: is it common for Transmen to transition from female, and then identify as a gay man? It seems kind of... limiting, I suppose - in terms of finding potential partners.

I am confused.
25
Fresh @21: Excuse me. NAFMT no more "corrected a group of gay men on the norms of their culture" than voiced his objection to having assumptions made about him. Wow. Besides, he was right.

Max @24: It's common for formerly straight women to identify as gay men post transition. One's gender does not determine one's sexual orientation; if you like men, you like men. And one does not decide what their sexual orientation will be. Did you choose yours? If you're not bisexual, then why not? Aren't you limiting yourself?
26
Back in the early 80's, I was a member of a mixed-gender support group for gay people. One of the gay men had just tried anal sex for the first time and didn't like it, and he was angsting about What This Meant to the group.

One of the other gay men in the group -- one who'd been in a committed relationship for a long time and who was looked up to as a REAL gay man by most of the others, said, "What made you decide to have anal sex? You don't have to, you know. You can be just as gay without it." I remember being impressed at the insight and sensitivity of his question, back when we were all in our early 20's and were mostly clueless. :-)
27
@25: I didn't know it was that common, that's all. I'd heard more about Transmen like Cher's kid Chaz Bono previously - Lesbians that transition to Male. Thanks for being a dick about it.

28
Mr Ricardo - Is it really (generally) unfortunate? Obviously, I'm sorry if it spoiled one or more of your relationships, but would you really want a perfect fit every time? My PLB got me over one of the things that had always made me cramp before him.
29
"What really bothered me is I think if I had been a cis gender gay guy and said that, the discussion might have ensued with more folks expressing their interests that weren't stereotypical." What? Based on what information regarding men do you believe this is true? Simply put, so-called "locker room" talk wouldn't exist if men were so willing to engage in open expression of their feelings with each other.

"But because I'm trans my opinion felt lesser and was rejected, and I took it as a judgement that I was somehow not (possibly) gay by their standards, and hence an outsider even in this small queer group." This speaks to the attitude and insecurities you brought to this conversation, not what the people in your group said to you or how they treated you.

Also what @20 and @21 said.
30
Max @27: I didn't mean to be a dick. How was I being a dick? I just wanted to lead you to the obvious conclusion by using an example you could relate to your own experience. I apologise if it came across as condescending when I only meant to be a bit cheeky.
31
@ 28 - It isn't "generally" unfortunate: If you don't like anal, you'll be quite happy to find someone else who doesn't. But although I can have great fun without anal, if it's definitely off the menu for the person I'm with, then that person gets taken off the menu definitely, as I know I'll soon be craving something they won't give me, and that's when arguments begin.

If the two (or more) people involved are not on the same page about this issue (or any other sexual practice that any one of them deems essential to their own satisfaction), I think it's better to keep the fond memories of a one-night stand and avoid the long-term frustrations of incompatibility.
32
Max @ 24, 27
Post op/transition sexual preferences may or may not change. Whether the person previously-known- as-a woman was fucking men or women may be irrelevant. Or not.
Quite a few trans men identify as gay men, same goes to trans women identified as lesbians.

LW- on a good note, it seems to me that the gay men crowd is likely to be more welcoming a trans gay men than a group of lesbians accepting and discussing their sex life, however flawed, with a trans lesbian woman.
33
There's also this consideration. LW as a trans man is the equivalent of a young or less experienced cis man, and therefore he may not yet know the full range of his own sexual preferences with either men or women. I can remember thinking "Nuh-uh, that's definitely not for me" about various sexual practices as a youth, when I was envisioning them in my mind or watching them in porn, only to be delightfully surprised when I was introduced to them by a loving and knowledgeable partner. Never say never.
34
@23 I mean, the plays right into the stereotypes of female communication: He feels entitled to superficial agreement and isn't used to being directly challenged in this way; meanwhile, it's a fairly safe bet these men, as boys, were taught to stand up for themselves from the age of like, 4. This doesn't read to me that they were treating LW particularly differently as a non-cis man; they were explicitly treating him as a man, and he doesn't have the skills [yet?] to cope with that.
35
@6: The first example that came to mind for me too!
36
And to the LW, while absolutely true, the ribbing received was probably because you identify as straight... unfair but even when saying something you might assume is uncontroversial, people get a little kneejerky when they feel someone is speaking for them.
37
For the letter writer, being a trans man who has not yet decided if he will identify as a gay trans man (i.e., whether he will want to have sex with men exclusively), there must be so many ways that living a new existence would be confusing. As a woman, I can really see that if you were socialized as a woman before transition, rough and tumble conversation of the type that an all male group (gay or not) might enjoy would be confusing to interpret. Did I just get put down because I am trans, or did I just get put down that is what guys just do joking around?! I can also imagine how confusing the sexual choices must be. For example, I would wonder, if I had not had bottom surgery, if vaginal sex with a man is gay sex. I would now be a man in all the ways that counted to me, but vaginal sex might still be more pleasurable for me than anal. But a cis man doesn't have a vagina, so would a gay man reject vaginal sex with another man? Letter writer, you really are entering a brave new world!
38
Mx Wanna - Example: Pat Califia, a well-known lesbian, transitioned to Patrick and shortly afterwards presented as gay - and then disappeared.
39
Mr Ricardo - Ah, I was not thinking in terms of completely off the table. Being so used to doing things that I didn't particularly like, I was thinking more in terms of partners who complied willingly but not enthusiastically.

From another angle, though, I've always imagined you as having such a superfluity of aspiring partners that sexual incompatibility with some of them would be a blessing to you.
40
@ 39 - I'm 50. The superfluity of aspiring partners has now been reduced to a trickle, so compatibility is increasingly important. But if we'd had this discussion 20 years ago, you would have been totally right.
41
Venn @38: Wikipedia says that Patrick Califia identifies as "a bisexual trans man."
This makes sense. A lot of bisexual women identify as lesbians for political reasons. Perhaps when Patrick transitioned, he did not want to lose his tie to the queer community by identifying as straight (ie liking only women), so he chose to be public about also liking men.

It is a bit more complicated than I implied @25. Society judges the genders differently based on what gender or genders they like. I have a trans woman friend who previously identified as a straight male, but who now believes herself to be a bit bisexual. Has transitioning changed her orientation? Or was she always a bit bi, but felt unable to publicly identify as a bi man due to the increased stigma?
42
46 and I'm nearly at the point where I can not follow discussions with young people. Thank god I have some teenage god kids. And urban dictionary.
43
@41 cont. Reading more about Patrick Califia from his Wikipedia entry, it seems his long-term partner is also a trans man. Which could explain the sexual orientation flip-flop from lesbian to gay man.
Apologies for the complete tangent...
44
I'm surprised by the "You're not used to standing up for yourself/entitled to superficial agreement/don't know how to joke" comments. Seriously? You really believe that being "socialised as a woman" involves being treated as some kind of fragile daisy snowflake BY YOUR CLOSE PEER GROUP?

I'm not sure if it's some kind of cultural gulf opening here, but I'm a cis, mostly het woman and the likelihood of a friend saying "fuck you" to me, making a joke about my sexual tastes or behaviours (or vice versa) is directly related to how close a friend they are and much less connected to their gender.

Also - I'm going to make a huge leap of an assumption here and I might be very wrong - but I would think the LW, being trans, would have likely had close male friends and been "one of the guys" before his transition or coming out and should have a reasonable idea of how men behave socially...

45
@44 LW is a trans man, meaning he was born a biological woman, so would not likely have been "one of the guys" before coming out/transitioning.
46
@44 I meant in the "honorary bloke" sense, like many women are.
47
@ 46 - Like many women think they are. They'd be surprised how the conversation changes when they leave.
48
Ms Fan - Interesting. I had not encountered even a reference to him for years. I am quite certain that I did see the G word and never saw the B word in the perhaps half dozen interviews or articles. I do have a vague idea of once or twice seeing something framed in a way that left the bi door open.

You have actually just given me the germ of an interesting idea, but I am nearly late for tennis.

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