Savage is passing the morning with a stale sheet-cake and some YouTube videos of South Korean soldiers doing sit-ups in their Speedos, so he let me have a crack at this letter from the Savage Love mailbag:
My boyfriend and I are about to be seniors in college. We were friends and had feelings for each other for about a year before we dated, but now we’ve officially been together almost a year. I have never been so in love, and I’m certain he’s the man I want to spend the rest of my life with.
We used to talk about our future a lot; we’re both actors/singers so we intend to head to New York and move in together after school. It’s been very common to mention things about marraige; wedding songs, kids, a house, etc.
Recently I had a talk with him about the fact that he doesn’t have a job (and I do). Performing is a rough industry and it has a lot to do with luck, so I advised that it would be wise to think about getting a job or a side plan for when we’re auditioning in New York together. After all, he can’t rely on his parents to pay his bills forever. I just want to feel like there will be a point in our relationship where I can rely on him financially.
Well, I’m sure you’ve guess that the reason I’m writing is because this made him really upset. He asked me if I thought I should be the one talking to him about this. I responded with “If you think you’re going to spend the rest of your life with me, then yes. If you don’t or if you aren’t sure, then maybe not”, and he just said, “Then maybe we shouldn’t be talking as if we’re going to spend our lives together, because I don’t think you’re the right person to be talking to me about this”.
Lots of conversation has happened since this, but the bottom line is that I want him to know I was just looking out for his best interest, because getting a job really is important—especially since he’s never had one before. Now that he’s responded the way he has, I feel like I can’t talk about our future anymore.
Please help me.
The answer is clear, PHM. You can do better. Not a better boyfriend—a better city.
New York has been the land of dreams for wannabe stars for generations, the place where people go to pay too much rent and make too little money for a snowball’s chance in Hell’s Kitchen of being noticed by anyone with any talent and clout.
But baby starlets don’t have to do that grind anymore—with the dawn of the 21st century, the sun is setting on New York. Stars are made on YouTube and Facebook and the most exciting, inventive performance in the country is coming out of other cities: Chicago, Portland, Seattle, and even Austin. (Have you seen The Method Gun by Austin’s Rude Mechs? Fantastic stuff.)
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: New York is played.
It’s the nation’s most provincial arts city, the most ingrown and deaf to the sounds made in other places. Chicago, Portland, and Seattle look to other cities, but New York only looks to itself—and its performance scene suffers as a result. But you don’t have to take my word for it.
Exhibit one: Terry Teachout of the Wall Street Journal, the only New-York based theater critic who reviews shows in other cities with any regularity:
It embarrasses me to say it, but most American drama criticism is provincial, and New York City is every bit as provincial in that regard as the smallest town in America. I’d like to see that change… I’d much rather be one of a dozen traveling critics—and until somebody joins me out on the road, I’ll continue to be embarrassed for my benighted profession, which operates on the mistaken assumption that if it doesn’t happen in New York or London, it isn’t happening.
Exhibit two: Back in the day, Seattle theater-makers with any initiative moved to NYC as a matter of course. Now, they stay—and some are moving back. (And some hotshots, like director Kate Whoriskey, who developed Ruined, which won Tony and Pulitzer awards—are moving from New York to Seattle to further their careers.)
Some Seattle theater folks have done well for themselves in New York: Mike Daisey, Reggie Watts, Tommy Smith. But what do they do once they’ve made it out there? They come back here to develop new work or to show off their latest masterpiece.
Exhibit three: Broadway is a boneyard of the imagination. The best musicals these days are made by outsiders (Stew, Les Freres Corbusier, the Canadians who wrote The Drowsy Chaperone for the Toronto fringe festival—Toronto). And some of the worst, most clichéd, soulless shit in America is written by longtime New Yorkers and members of the Broadway establishment.
Exhibit four: some of the world’s best companies don’t even bother touring to New York anymore—Romeo Castellucci, for example, has toured to Seattle, Los Angeles, and New Jersey… but not New York.
I could go on. The point is, you shouldn’t move to New York with your boyfriend and get chewed up in its economic meat grinder only to rot in one of the theater world’s most moribund cities. You can find better jobs, cheaper rents, and more exciting opportunities elsewhere.
Stick with the boyfriend. Dump New York.
(And yes, he’s being a baby. Even if his parents can afford to pay his bills for the rest of his life, a self-respecting adult will work towards financial independence—which will be much easier anywhere but New York. Tell him exactly what you expect of him as your partner and equal. And maybe his less-than-ideal attitude is just a byproduct of anxiety about the future—anxiety that might be alleviated if you all choose a city with better opportunities, both artistically and financially. But if he can’t man up and have reasonable adult conversations, follow the advice of commenter Lily Fluffbottom: Dump him and NYC.)
Between this and Megan’s “Fuck New York” posting, you’re itching for a Seattle throwdown with the Big Apple that might end up having jetBlue drop Sea-Tac.
This oughta be very.
On another note, your boyfriend is being a big baby. You are absolutely right – you are the person to talk to him about having some way to pay his share in New York or wherever you move, because if he doesn’t, you’re the one who is going to be trying to audition between working two jobs so that you two don’t end up on the street. At the very least, boyfriend is trying to avoid growing up and being responsible for himself. At the worst, he is using this as an excuse to break up with you or at least put a halt to your “we’re going to be together forever with a wedding and babies” future. It’s time to have a big talk about what this means to your (I mean you, not you and him) future.
Stick with the boyfriend? If she wants to be a doormat, sure. Doesn’t matter if it’s on the streets of Seattle or New York.
If the boyfriend doesn’t believe she has the right to talk to him about this, that is a huge flag that she doesn’t. She should move and get on with her life and her career. Either the boyfriend will realize he is an idiot and follow her; or, he won’t, in which case it is for the best for both of them.
I would like to say a lot of guys will talk about what to name kids and wedding songs, without it meaning “kids with you” specifically….it is just a subject that comes up that women read too much into.
NO no no no. She needs to dump New York AND the BF. if he doesn’t have a job now, chances are he’s probably not going to get one any time soon, especially with the way he freaked out on you suddenly. If he does get a job, then consider getting back together, but supporting him and yourself after college is fucking dumb.
He doesn’t think you’re the right person to be talking to him about this?! What the hell? If you two are planning on living together then you HAVE to talk about this.
Money issues are one of the biggest reasons people break up/divorce, etc.
J-Haxx has a point – maybe he really doesn’t plan a future with you.
That’s right, don’t take your chances in the big city. Settle for the mediocrity that Seattle will most assuredly bring you.
Well, I can certainly forgive him for not having a job. In case you hadn’t heard, the economy is shit, and lots of people don’t have jobs.
But if he isn’t willing to even talk about it, then that’s a real problem. New York or Arkansas, a marriage is doomed if he is unwilling to talk about money issues in a serious grown-up way.
Re: your new icon, @8, I have that t-shirt. But I will miss Bill the Cat.
Hahahahahahahaha. I love how Seattle hates on NYC so much.
I grew up in Seattle but now live in NYC. I won’t ever move back, and neither will the thousands of people who leave Seattle to come to NYC every year. Life in NYC pushes you to accomplish something, and you’re constantly surrounded by people who are doing amazing things. Don’t move here if you can’t handle that.
I’m with Cory. Dump the boyfriend. You can’t commit to moving to a new city and shacking up with someone who can’t commit to a conversation about your future together. He’s being more than a baby. He’s simply not interested in your input, and he’s likely not willing to get a job to pay the bills. Not longterm material.
@10 You’re aware of exactly how insufferable you sound, right?
and you didn’t even have to mention spiderman the musical.
Unless the bf or his parents are independently wealthy, DTMFA. It’s so sweet that they’re both 22 year-old actors who’re gonna make it in the Big City, but if he’s waffling at getting a job now, at 22, think how much fun it’s gonna be having the get-a-job-convo when he’s 38. Run.
Well … you’ve been in a relationship for just a year and you’re not even out of college. “The rest of your lives” is probably kind of heavy. He likely pictured a longish-term relationship, but long-term as in “five years.”
You’re right in that he needs to think about this NOW and he’ll need to support himself, but he might be taking your “you listen to me because we might marry” point too literally. Even if you weren’t going to move in together, even if he lived alone, all your points about his livelihood are still valid.
@10 Are there really thousands of Seattleites moving to New York every year? I doubt that.
@ 10. You’re making my case for me, Steven—keep flattering yourself and gazing at that municipal navel.
And do you care to be specific? I give examples, you just strut.
@10: “you’re constantly surrounded by people who are doing amazing things.”
Like pissing on the subway or hitting you up for weed?
Move to NY without the boyfriend. Find a nice roommate in Manhattan and maximize your time there. Work, audition, go to plays, museums. Walk from the lower eastside to 125th street.
But, set a date to get out of there too. Whether it’s one year or five (I stayed for three) living in the city will start to wear on you. When you feel yourself becoming rough around the edges, bitter and anesthetized to the harshness of the city, it’s time to leave.
Dan, your examples mostly point to the fact that they’ll have to cut their teeth in NYC, and some success will afford’em the luxury of looking beyond it.
I’m sure the author has “never been so in love”, but college aged kids have never been so a lot of things. Their relationship is going to be tried by a lot more serious things than being insecure about work, especially if they go through with the move.
@19 – Rough around the edges doesn’t necessarily bother me that much, but you’ve got a point. I’ve been in SF for 10 years now (which, if it were one of the Five Borough’s, would only be bigger than Staten Island) and I can’t help but notice when I travel how nice I think everyone is.
here is where you lose me: “I just want to feel like there will be a point in our relationship where I can rely on him financially.”
so, you want him to stop leeching off of his parents so you can leech off of him? classy. maybe your discussion with him went differently, but if a girl friend said that to me i might also be a little upset, especially if she was the one with a job in a competitive industry we were both in, and i didn’t have one of those few jobs.
you’re both “actors/singers”, right? you’re essentially telling him to give up his dream so you will be financially secure to pursue yours.
you should apologies, and talk to him about how you *both* can have back-up plans if either of your acting careers don’t work out.
Or you could just move to one of the many cheaper places around NYC and commute in. Not to give it away, but Jersey City is pretty frickin’ great, and it’s quicker to get into midtown then most parts of BK. Just stay away from Hoboken.
A similar thing seems to be happening in western Europe. The non-establishment artists and designers are moving from overinflated London (and Paris) to more supportive, cohesive cities — Antwerp, Cologne, Copenhagen and Berlin, to name a few.
It sounds like he has moved on emotionally. He is still dating you for convenience while he has his eye out for something he considers better…
Or he’s an idiot. Either way… dtmfa
@22: I just read that to mean she can count on him to take care of at least his share of expenses if they live together, and that she won’t have to work for two. But you’re right — could be this too.
Here here! I love when you write these posts. Not to hear you bitch about ny, but to hear you talk with such pride about other cities with vibrant theater.
It’s true. The best work is outside of NY. I went to an intense “new york bound” college program and instead chose to move to Seattle. I am working consistently with my company and others while most of my classmates are left making youtube videos and talking about how they made it to the “final auditon.” In other words didn’t get the job.
The idea of New York fucks with your head. It makes people think it’s the only option. In fact, many of my classmates looked down on me as if I were making a lesser choice. After looking into what they’re up to I think it’s safe to say I’m getting the last laugh.
@12 “@10 You’re aware of exactly how insufferable you sound, right?”
yes, but so do all of you who are saying how over, and how awful, and how not-it New York is. really, how many of you have ever lived here?
success in the entertainment industry doesn’t necessarily equal tonys and broadway; there are MANY other performance/creative opportunities here
There really shouldn’t be any argument about Seattle vs. New York. They are both places to work, and the smart artist would find a way to work in both places. The truth is, I wouldn’t be able to make a living as a playwright if I wasn’t based in New York — the amount of financial opportunities there far outweigh the ones in Seattle or any other American city, and there is no way to really argue otherwise. I have strong connections with Seattle, and I love working in the city, but it doesn’t allow me to operate in all the venues I would like. There are four theatres in Seattle — Rep, Intiman, ACT and WET. I have connections with over two dozen in New York City alone, and probably another 10-15 in the immediately accesible surrounding cities (DC, Philly, etc.) It’s just a number game. The smart bear goes where he can catch the most salmon.
As for the boyfriend, I dunno: Get better problems?