- Mike’s on the far left. This was posted to Facebook Dec. 4.
Last night, I was drinking at Pony when I got a text from my youngest brother saying, simply, “Mike is on facebook.” I set down my drink, said goodbye, and raced home. Mike is a first lieutenant in the Army, stationed in Basra right now. Every once in a while, we’ll catch each other on Facebook and get to chat while he’s sitting in a tent somewhere. He pops up on Facebook at random times, like 1:18 am on a Tuesday. (We write actual letters too, but it takes forever for them to get where they’re going; the last one I sent in a padded pouch, packed with SweetTarts, his favorite, for his birthday.) Maybe because I’d just been in a gay bar, or because DADT has been in the news, or because Scott Brown and the military brass have said they want to talk to commanders in the field to find out their thoughts about the practical ramifications of repealing DADT before doing so—or because of all of the above and the confidence of three beers in me—I started asking Mike about DADT. It’s something that we’ve never talked about.
He’s my favorite brother: a conservative who voted for Kerry in ’04 (because “Bush is an idiot”) and Obama in ’08 (he explained why in a text message). Funny, hard-working, kind, missed greatly by the family, honest. Asked last night by his (gay) older brother for his no-bullshit opinion on repealing DADT, he said, “Honestly, I think it would cause a lot of problems.”
Our full conversation, and another recent photo from Basra posted to Facebook, are after the jump.
- Mike’s on the left. Posted to Facebook Jan. 29.
Christopher
hey can i ask you your no bullshit opinion about DADT?
just curious what you think about it
you guys hear the state of the union speech last week?
1:20amMike
DADT?
i missed it but i hear sound bites from the news.
1:21amChristopher
don’t ask don’t tell
gay dudes like your older bro in the military
obama says he’s gonna work with the military to finally repeal it, curious what you think since i have no military experience and realize it might be weird for some people
1:22amMike
yeah, thats a tough question
honestly, i think it would cause a lot of problems
i mean, soldiers are usually conservative
1:24amChristopher
I went on a couple dates once with a guy in the navy (there’s a base out here) and he had to keep everything a total secret or he could lose his job. But he said guys on his base hook up all the time, kind of a known thing but no one talks about it.
1:24amMike
then you would have the added problems of relationships
1:24amChristopher
And this other guy i’ve been reading about is an arabic translator (which the country is desperate for) and he got fired too.
But I can see there are probably lots of sides to the issue. 13,000 guys dishonorably* discharged since the 90s.
Not much they can do about their sexuality.
1:24amMike
just having girls in the miltary is tough enough, as far as being sensitive
1:24amChristopher
But we’re in two wars, etc etc, so I don’t fuckin know.
1:25amMike
im trying not to sound like an asshole, but you know what im saying
1:25amChristopher
Yeah
I wish you’d be even more blunt but you’re prob trying to be nice to your brother
1:25amMike
maybe they shouldnt be fired for it
but it would cause a lot of problem
1:26amChristopher
dishonorable discharge for being honest seems like a shitty way to go down.
1:26amMike
we already go through sensitivity training all the time
1:26amChristopher
or, like, say your ex got mad and ratted you out, cuz they were mad, and you lost your job.
that’d suck
what’s sensitivity training?
1:26amMike
maybe in the future people would be ready for that, but maybe we should work on gay marriage before we throw it into the military
1:27amChristopher
That’s funny.
You’re ahead of your time, man.
A majority of the country thinks gay ppl should be allowed to fight without gettin fired, but only a small minority thinks gay marriage is cool.
“marriage” is a religious concept to most ppl.
1:29amMike
not to mention, the military in general is way more conservative than civilian life
1:29amChristopher
Yeah.
I actually can’t believe public opinion is the way it is on it.
1:29amMike
like you can lose your job for having an affair
if your married, or the person you sleep with is married
enlisted to officer dating, you can losr your job
and, if if two guys in my platoon are in a relationship, that would cause so many problems
1:31amChristopher
yeah
i could see that
1:31amMike
on my patrol base its jsut my platoon, all guys, and they wanted to send out 2 female cooks.
basically i sent them back. Id rather eat MRE’s for a year than have a female live with us just because of the problems it would cause
1:32amChristopher
you’re sensible, mike frizzelle.
what’s MREs?
1:33amMike
meal ready to eat
1:33amChristopher
like a can of beans or somethin?
1:34amMike
sort of…Ill bring one home sometime
1:34am
Then we started talking about other stuff—his girlfriend, Avatar (“we have a bootleg copy, and i saw about a minute of it before i was bored”), Mom, California.
* UPDATE: As a commenter points out—I didn’t realize this—not everyone discharged from the military under DADT is discharged dishonorably.
Its just like any other job. You’re going to have to meet and work with gay people, whether you like them or not. Its not like there are no gay people already in the military.
Your brother’s arguments suck. “I like black people but, you know, letting them into our schools would cause a lot of problems…”
I can see where your brother is coming from, but I don’t think it’s ever going to get any easier. It was tough to integrate the armed forces, it’s been even tougher to include women (I have to say it’s pretty hard to stomach that he sent away the cooks because they were women – why is it so hard for men to act like adults?) and just sitting on the issue won’t make it any easier.
I’m sensitive to the fact that, yes, it would cause problems, but as he himself points out, allowing women into the military met the same objections, and integrating the military was considered a pretty damn radical idea – and the military survived both. They’re definitely still working out the kinks on the women in the military part, though; some branches have definitely done better than others with that (the Marines don’t have anything like the problems the Army does).
He’s shortsighted. Doesn’t see that there could be just as strict rules about not dating other members of your platoon or something. And just because gay people could legally be gay and in the military doesn’t mean that they’re going to come out to their as he said it conservative platoon members.
If it’s forbidden for enlisted and officers to have a relationship, why can’t it be forbidden for two guys (or two girls or a guy & a girl) in the same platoon to have a relationship? That actually seems like a pretty sensible thing to do, if they’re going to repeal DADT.
Yeah I gotta say your brother seems like a decent guy but kinda lazy in a way. He’d rather just eat MREs than deal with having female cooks? The women have to go somewhere. Are they supposed to just not have any women in the military? It doesn’t seem like that much to ask the men to act like human beings and not animals towards the women.
You have never lived until you have eaten an MRE. Some of them are actually decent, but some taste like dog food. I love the little Tabasco bottles that some of them include.
I can get you an MRE at the commissary if you want to know the drill – that’s a pretty drastic statement given the nastiness of those things. One French MRE goes for THREE American ones in Iraq, I’ve heard.
BTW, great that your brother was honest and great that you posted it. But… I have to agree with TVDinner. Why can’t we just expect soldiers to act like grown-ups? I mean, your brother is basically saying “Sorry women and gays, but us straight men are too immature and/or unprofessional to handle your presence, so you don’t get the same opportunities that we do.” I understand it from a “makes his life easier as the guy in charge” perspective, but easy isn’t always right, integrating african-americans was hard, blah, blah blah.
You’re assuming all of the problems are caused by the men.
I still don’t really understand why gays or women would want to be in the military.
wow that argument was shit.
You see…freedom doesn’t work like that. We don’t get freedom when and if everyone can “deal” with it. Freedom just is, otherwise our Constitution means nothing, what with natural rights and all.
If democracy can’t exist due to the fact that humans can’t deal with the natural rights of individuals, then democracy can’t exist.
But, that’s not what will happen. The change will happen and the military will go on just fine.
In fact, how many commenters have any idea how difficult integration can be? I’m not suggesting the military keep DADT. I’m just suggesting we shouldn’t minimalize how difficult a process this really is.
As for an MRE: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M…
six shooter…so what if it’s hard. Rights aren’t arbitrary according to the whims of the powerful, per our Constitution, they are natural and exist prior to the formation of our nation.
Nowadays, you can’t get a dishonorable discharge under DADT unless you’re specifically caught in the act of same-sex intercourse (not kissing, hand-holding or being verbally honest) on a military base. I say this as a woman who was *honorably* discharged from the Army under DADT in November 2003 from the Defense Language Institute in California. Even though DLI is two hours’ drive from San Francisco, it’s hardly liberal and the anti-gay environment is stifling.
A year before my discharge, that base rooted out a large number of Army Arabic linguists during a “health and welfare” sting. All of these soldiers received general discharges or fully honorable discharges, depending on the evidence against them. Because the soldiers were a part of a training company, they couldn’t claim the “Queen for a Day” excuse the military has on the books, just in case someone gets caught. Instead, they were outed, subjected to personnel investigations and then discharged after a month. They weren’t fortunate enough to contact the Servicemember Legal Defense Network to safeguard themselves properly in the military or in the civilian world after their contracts were cut short.
I didn’t know any of these soldiers personally, as I wasn’t on the installation at the time (or even assigned to their former company), so I’m not sure how hard they took their separations. But I do know that it’s always hard to explain how and why a person was discharged from the Army (whethere honorably, or generally) under DADT.
Currently the military’s own estimates are that one in three female soldiers will be sexually assaulted, twice the rate as in the civilian population. So Christopher’s brother is right to suggest that integration of women into the military has been problematic.
He’s right to worry about the repeal of DADT too. That doesn’t mean it isn’t the right thing to do, but those pretending that it’s a simple matter are being naive. It isn’t exactly like another workplace, it’s a unique situation.
six shooter:
Come on, it’s really not that hard. It’s really simple; act like a human being.
Yes some people are going to fail at it, and they will need to be dealt with. But as some other people have said, putting it off doesn’t make it easier.
Clearly, there’s still problems with Women in the military after all this time, and from what I understand they are in still many ways second class members of the military.
To this admittedly civilian observer it seems to me that the problem lies with the fact that our military is mostly straight, conservative men and all the baggage that comes with that. Misogyny, bigotry, etc.
@11 That’s a good point. He could have just meant the logistical issues it would have raised having men and women together (like the what has to be done to have men and women at the same jail), as opposed to the interpersonal issues (or that the behavior of the women is the thing causing the interpersonal problems).
It seems to me like integrating women would be much harder than integrating gays, but that’s just me.
I didn’t find MREs to be that bad, but then again, I didn’t have to eat them for a year. I liked the “lottery” aspect of it – you know what the main dish is, but all of the “side dishes” (or whatever you would call peanut butter & crackers, or sweets) are unknown. Am I going to get something good or something crappy? They’re stupidly heavy, if you’re carrying them in your pack, though.
So I have a question: Does anyone know why repealing DADT will cost MONEY & take TIME? I don’t really get that???……the most difficult thing I can think of is rewriting a few military manuals, making a couple rules about ass fucking in the bunks & then doing a powerpoint presentation…..poof…its gone…..
I think you can buy an MRE at the army navy surplus in belltown. I would like to see a food review of those things.
Soldiers are conservative? Who gives a shit? The conservative thing to do, the SOLDIERLY thing to do, is to do what you’re fucking told. If the brass says “here’s your gay” you say “yes, sir”.
Also: the gays are already there. 55,000 of them, I heard. Your brother is probably sleeping next to a fag every night already.
Also: how does the disruptive effect of open homosexuals in the military compare with the disruptive effect of THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS that go on in the military every goddamn day without punishment?
Also: this mysterious disruptive force hasn’t had any impact at all in the other militaries that have allowed it, which is all of the civilized ones. Gay soldiers in Britain’s army make no difference at all.
Most military commands already have rules on not dating other people in the command, but from my experience it usually isn’t enforced. And when it is, you get in trouble, but don’t get kicked out with an OTH (other than honorable discharge). Usually just loose some pay, maybe rank, and get some extra duty for a month or two.
But that was the navy. The army or marines may be worse.
@22, have you ever heard the expression “there’s the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way”?
Integrating blacks into the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military… Oh wait, it’s been done…
Allowing women to serve in the aremed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military… Oh wait, that’s been done too!
Allowing gays to serve in the aremed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military…
Sorry, you’re brothers argument doesn’t fly…
And who is to say a gay relationship isn’t happening at this very moment right under his nose?
@1 Are you forced in any other job to daily share, bathroom, showers and bunks beds with others ? The stress and anxiety that would be added to military men and women would only weaken our nations best. And in the end for what ? Just to please people like you. There’s nothing to be gain by the military to allow open homosexuality. The first thing the military needs to do is survey their troops like this young man and get a feel of where they’re on this because in the end it is them who will have to deal with the consequences of a repeal of this policy.
Christopher, thanks for sharing this; it’s interesting stuff though it felt a little dirty to be reading someone’s personal conversation.
People who are so quick to tear into your brother’s “shitty,” “lazy” arguments fail to appreciate that he’s just being honest, giving a ground view of what the troops really think and feel. It’s not like your brother is making policy, nor is he going to rebel against a change in it. You’re just providing a peek into how delicately this policy change would have to be handled.
I’m surprised at how little it ever gets mentioned that Israel’s (badass) military is completely open to gay soldiers…
Spell Check version-lol!
Integrating blacks into the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military… Oh wait, it’s been done…
Allowing women to serve in the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military… Oh wait, that’s been done too!
Allowing gays to serve in the armed forces will de-moralize and weaken the military…
Sorry, you’re brothers argument doesn’t fly…
And who is to say a gay relationship isn’t happening at this very moment right under his nose?
@12 – the problem lies in the higher-ups of the military. Everyone takes a cue from their superiors. If the superiors are weak against DADT or outright against it, then that, like shit, flows downhill. If a superior is misogynist, there’s probably less chances that any sexual assault will be reported.
What we need is a, “Get used to it or get dishonorably discharged” on every level – and yes, I’m well aware of the consequences of discharging a brilliant but bigoted corporal/admiral/what-have-you. I’d ask ‘how far would a racist captain be tolerated?’ but with today’s military, I’m kind of afraid of the answer.
Loveschild you ignorant cunt…that argument didn’t hold water for African American soldiers being integrated in so it aint gonna work now either.
A soldiers job is to do what the military needs/orders. The color of their skin or who they want to have a relationship with outside of the military HAS NO BEARING on their daily performance. Any relationship with any fellow soldier is not allowed. It is as simple as that.
No offense, Christopher, but how the hell do you not know what an MRE is? Watch some Generation Kill, if only for Alexander Skarsgard’s beautiful body.
@28.
I think this is the first time I’ve ever responded to a reply of yours! I feel like I’m getting my cherry popped! 😀
Anyone who has a problem with that is sexist, etc. etc. and has no place being in the military. I am perfectly fine with them getting kicked out if they’re that big of a pansy. ‘Sides, they already are showering, eating, etc. with gays so that’s an illogical argument (but you thrive on those, from what I gather 😉 ).
@28 – There’s definitely nothing to gain from ending DADT. It’s not like our military is short of soldiers or anything – they just must really love issuing stop-losses. And who needs all those Arabic translators who were dismissed under DADT anyways?
The younger Ftizzelle’s doing what all soldiers do: defending Army policy, whatever it may be. When Army policy changes, after a few rotations the next crop of soldiers will as a matter of course make the adjustment. No more gracefully or fully than with racial and gender integration, sure, but certainly no fucking less.
Nope, SpellCheck won’t catch “you’re brothers argument” and change it to “your brother’s argument.”
I am not suggesting we don’t integrate. I am suggesting you consider the opinion of someone actually in the military — someone fairly gay-friendly — when he says it will be difficult.
Most of us have had all of the difficult work of integration already done for us. We abuse our forefathers when we pretend their struggles were simple.
Yes, all members of the military everywhere simply do what they’re told. Someone should tell them to stop the “THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS.”
While the brothers arguments may not be strong, it does show that there is some hesitation among the enlisted. Maybe thats why theres a “take time” approach.
Having said that…WTF?! Gay are there already. Take some white out and make the discriminatory rule disappear. End of “study”.
We heard the same kind of arguments about women in combat units and gays in the military back when Canada allowed both in during the 80s.
Nothing happened. The world didn’t end.
In fact, the units with more gay member or more women cross-trained in combat roles won lots of unit awards for higher efficiency.
It was, and I’ll be frank, a non-event.
Fear is the mind-killer.
The problem isn’t gays in the military. The problem is assholes in the military. We send these people to foreign lands and ask them to win the hearts and minds of the locals among other thing. That takes a geat deal of patience understanding and empathy. If the assholes in the military can’t respect other Americans in their own unit who are different from them, how the fuck are they going to respect Afghans and Iraqis? There is a serious problem here and it has nothing to do with DADT.
@41, You nailed it right on the head.
Well, thankfully we live in a democracy and the president, elected by the people, is in charge of the military.
Obama should just repeal the damn thing today.
@29 By assigning most of them to open bases so that they can sleep at home rather than in their barracks. So like Israel we would need to allow special treatments for gays. A perfect recipe to undermine cohesion.
@28 Loves… Er I mean Hateschild,
Do you know how much $$ goes into the training and education of preparing people for our military? Do you realize the incredible waste of your $$$ everytime a gay person is kicked out of the military- especially skilled Arabic translators? It is a waste on too many levels to even list here…
But according to your bible book of fairy tales the ends justify the means…
Do you realize your comments against allowing gays to openly serve in the military are the same arguments made about black soldiers being integrated with whites and Hispanics?
“…forced in any other job to daily share, bathroom, showers and bunks beds with (blacks)? The stress and anxiety that would be added to military men would only weaken our nations best.”
As a (ignorant) black woman(?) you have obviously forgotten the long hard fought struggle it took to get you where you are…
@38, yes, someone should. The brass condones the sexual abuse of women soldiers. That’s why soldiers continue to get away with it.
You know, if we just got the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, it might be a whole lot easier for them to make the adjustment.
I have a problem with your brother watching a bootleg copy of Avatar (on his laptop?) and expecting to enjoy it. But I realize it’s hard to find an Imax 3D theater in Basra.
@ Fnarf,
Thank you.
That’s what’s so infuriating about the “debate” over gays in the military. DADT doesn’t keep gays out, it only promotes lying and dishonesty. There are tens of thousands of gays and lesbians in military right now.
Guess it’s not any more submoronic than any other “debate” that goes on in this country, though. Death panels!!
@28, this may be hard for you or so many other bigots to grasp, but if you have taken a shower in a gym locker room, then a homosexual has probably seen you naked. *gasp* I know–calm yourself–that this is a shock. Ignorance is bliss for some.