A Conversation with My Brother in Iraq about Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

1. I’m surprised at how little it ever gets mentioned that Israel’s (badass) military is completely open to gay soldiers…

   Perhaps policies have changed in the past ten years, but, last I heard, gay Israeli soldiers were not permitted to sleep in the regular barracks with straight soldiers. They were sent home at night. It’s also important to note that Israel has compulsory service, which gives them an extra reason to (mostly) accept gays — they don’t want anyone to have an excuse not to serve.

2. I really really wish Fnarf wasn’t right @46.

   But he is.

3. @41 is on to something.

   “Conservative” is codeword for “I don’t have to understand or trust anything that isn’t me,” and nowhere more than in the military. But I think gay men currently serving are already respected more than any woman in the military. Especially in the Navy and Army, where women are openly disdained and sexism is like a sport.

   As others have pointed out, “sensitivity training” shouldn’t be necessary in the military – tolerance and equality should be an order that is followed.

4. Christopher, I think you missed the more interesting question, which is assuming this change is coming, would it be less disruptive during one or two wars, when the gay troops in question will be proven as worthy comrades on the one hand, but there is a much larger chance of “fragged” being added to military lexicon without the R or if he thinks this would be somehow more comfortable during “peacetime”.

5. I can’t help but be reminded of my two summers touring with a drum and bugle corps.

   It was a tight-knit competitive group with common goals, and for two months we were pushed to the limit both physically and mentally. We slept in close quarters (filled school gymnasiums with sleeping bags) and used communal showers. There are a couple corps that are male-only, and most if not all used to be male-only, but my corps was co-ed.

   Add to that a large number of out color guard boys, and it’s a very similar situation. Everyone regularly slept nearby and showered together, and I can’t recall anyone seriously having a problem with it. They were our friends and comrades, not people we felt threatened by sexually. If a bunch of 13-22 year old kids can handle it with poise, I would hope the military boys could suck it up.

   The big difference is that we didn’t really have a “chain of command” among members. Other than section leaders and drum majors and staff, there wasn’t much potential for “inappropriate” relationships like there is in the military. As many people have already pointed out, though, they already have this “problem” now with women serving.

6. @28 Do you know that thousands of gay people are already in the military? And everywhere else in society. We are not going away just because we make you uncomfortable.

7. @50 Uh huh, so in your mind you think that serving in the military is the same as going to a gym of your choice whenever you want. So you think our military men and women who put their lives on the line to secure our nation are bigots for having genuine concerns about their day to day personal living environment with open ( open ) homosexuals, who no doubt will assert their openness if this policy is repealed, even when those around them feel uncomfortable and are unable to function to their fullest capacity due to that.

8. Good article from the 2007 St. Petersburg Times on the Israel Defense Force’s integration which began in 1993.

9. My dear stepfather, who is a vet, tells me that MREs are the most disgusting substances pretending to be food ever invented.

10. @41 FTW! so well said!

11. Loveschild, How exactly would a soldier who is out affect anything? What difference would it make?

    If you can answer this I would be suprised. If a soldier can’t act to his fullest abilities because their fellow soldier is gay, perhaps then the problem lies with the straight soldier who obviously puts his own personal feelings and inadequacies over the mission and his job,

12. Why didn’t you ask the important question: “When you get the order, will you do your duty and obey it, or are you a pathetic wimp preferring to be court marshaled?”

13. @61 You don’t think that homosexuals will assert their openness ? You don’t think issues of discomfort will arise from showering with someone known to be sexually attracted to those of his or her own gender ? You don’t think that can be tantamount to allowing members of the opposite share the same showers, beds with the added problem that unlike the latter it wouldn’t be something desired by the soldiers ?

14. If you’re an emotionally fragile heterosexual male who lacks the social maturity and mental discipline to serve with gay men, you don’t belong in the military.

    It’s way past time that the military stop recruiting, retaining and coddling weak, immature boys and reactionary assholes who just can’t deal with people who are different from them like real, grown men do every day.

15. @57, “So you think our military men and women who put their lives on the line to secure our nation are bigots for having genuine concerns about their day to day personal living environment with open ( open ) homosexuals”

    Yes, yes I do think this and no “a homo saw my tweeter in the shower and I am too immature to deal with it” is not a genuine concern.

16. They are soldiers. SEX SHOULD NEVER ENTER INTO THEIR DAILY LIVES. THere are already rules against male and female soldiers “hooking up.” The same must then be applied to gay soldiers. And as it has been said a thousand times already, there are already gay soldier showering and bunking with hetero ones. It would be no different if the gay ones no longer have to lie and hide who they are as they serve our country.

    Who cares if they assert their openenss. Gay soldiers have to deal with Hetero ones asserting their sexual identity so really what difference does it make?

    Its a shame that you are still to this day such a bigoted idiot.

17. @63: Last I checked, gay soldiers are still bound by the uniform code of conduct and various laws of the sort. Treating gay soldiers equally means equal punishment for misconduct.

    To wit: crime is higher per capita within the black community, but are black soldiers restricted outright from certain types of duty because non-black soldiers are worried about their safety? Racism is rampant in the military, but black soldiers still serve openly and proudly. The ignorance of others should not govern whether or not an adult of sound mind and body can choose to join the military, especially if they bring enthusiasm and a desire to serve their country.

    For someone who claims being gay is a changeable trait, you sure do like to flip your own arguments on their head by saying that gays will not be able to change their sexual attractions and are therefore a risk.

18. See, LC, THIS is why we can call YOU a bigot and have it be 100% accurate and fair. It’s one thing to support domestic partnerships (if you actually do), but it’s something else to defend DADT. (Also, your anti-marriage equality rants usually betray your heart to us too.)

19. I’m not in the military, so my opinion does not carry a lot of weight.

    It seems to me that it is the problem of the straight soldier to get over it if he or she has an issue, and to get over the idea that they are so dang hot that an openly gay soldier wants to jump their bones. Plenty of gays and straights alike resist the temptation of their hotness presently.

    I think we will be okay. If allowing gays to serve openly hasn’t destroyed other armed forces around the globe: Canada, UK, Australia, Israel, etc., it is not likely to destroy us either.

    Oh, and all those crying out that we cannot survive this change, way to be a defeatist pussy. What happened to your AmeriCAN spirit. Chin up.

    Ps. I agree with Fnarf @ 46.

    Pps. Christopher thank you for sharing. It is good to hear that your brother is doing well. May he come home soon.

20. @63, you stupid cunt, they’re showering with gay men already. Why can you not grasp that obvious point? Oh, that’s right — because you are a pig-ignorant bigoted shitforbrains.

21. @66 It shouldn’t but we know that’s not necessarily how it always work and unlike rules in put place to prevent male and female intimate interactions such would be very difficult to set up and enforce for people of the same sex. Unless the U.S military is willing to create special rights for gays as have done other militaries that some use as examples for repealing our law.

22. @Loveschild

    A gay man is not a heterosexual woman, regardless of the similarity in the objects of their affection.

    Pick an argument, regardless of how foolish and baseless, and stick with it.

    You’ve asserted that gay men are the same as heterosexual women and as such shouldn’t be allowed to serve with heterosexual men. Attempting to demean gay men by associating them with women begs the question of how little you regard women in general.

    Your reasoning is seriously fucked up.

    You’ve also asserted that a gay man would be a predator in the showers against these poor, weak and defenseless little boys in the military. I take it that you’ve never actually met a real man in uniform because if you had, you know better than to categorize any of them as frightened of being sized up in the shower.

    Again, pick an argument. You can’t have it both ways in your argument against gay men in the military – gays are silly, little girls and gays are aggressive, sexual predators.

23. @66 It shouldn’t but we know that’s not necessarily how it always work and unlike rules put in place to prevent male and female intimate interactions such would be very difficult to set up and enforce for people of the same sex. Unless the U.S military is willing to create special rights for gays as have done other militaries that some use as examples for repealing our law.
    .

24. @71 Loveschild the village idiot.

    Different rules for gay soldiers? How exactly? The same fricken rules that apply between male and female soldiers are then just carried over to gay soldiers. EASY. How exactly would these be hard to set up?

    “Oh you hetero boys, the rules state that you can’t fuck any of the female soldiers…thats innapropriate. But you gay boys…feel free to go to town on all the cock in this platoon you want.”

    Seriously… is that how you see this happening.

    OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES YOU IGNORANT BITCH.

25. it’s funny that you guys keep arguing with a trollbot —

    “Stupid robot! Why won’t you agree with us?”

    “BEEP ARGUMENT ILLOGICAL. NEGATIVE RESPONSE BEEP”

26. Perfect examples of why I ignore most people that respond to Loveschild.

27. This is a perfect example of Christopher Frizzelle’s shitty attempt at hack writing. One conservative idiot’s opinion of a policy that he’s learned more about through his own warped methods rather than his actual experience in the military is irrelevant. This fucktard probably thinks he’s in Iraq to hunt terrorists, too.

28. This is a perfect example of Christopher Frizzelle’s shitty attempt at hack writing. One conservative idiot’s opinion of a policy that he’s learned more about through his own warped methods rather than his actual experience in the military is irrelevant. This fucktard probably thinks he’s in Iraq to hunt terrorists, too.

    If conservative bigots don’t like gays serving in the military, then they should resign. END OF DEBATE.

29. so you pester and nag your brother about dadt when he obviously doesn’t want to talk about it with you then post his remarks so a bunch of pansy fags can pick them apart-
    you are a world class asshole prick.

30. As a gay member of the military I firmly believe that a repealing DADT will be a non-issue. Just like it is in ~27 other countries.

31. uh, gays are already IN the military…gays have ALWAYS been in the military (duh, same-sex society in exotic foreign lands!) Do people really think that once DADT is repealed, hordes of homos are going to storm recruitment stations? And, most of the rest of the civilized world already HAS gays in the military.

    Why does ANYONE believe that Loveschild is real? She’s blatantly fake like Ecce Homo…you NEVER see them at the same party.

32. uh, gays are already IN the military…gays have ALWAYS been in the military (duh, same-sex society in exotic foreign lands!) Do people really think that once DADT is repealed, hordes of homos are going to storm recruitment stations? And, most of the rest of the civilized world already HAS gays in the military.

    Why does ANYONE believe that Loveschild is real? She’s blatantly fake like Ecce Homo…you NEVER see them at the same party.

33. @Loveschild: My question is, why are you opposed to coddling gay soldiers by giving them their own area (which by your own admission is done in other military units without lose of cohesion) but you are so supportive of coddling straight soldiers by ensuring they experience no discomfort what-so-ever.

34. How about an all gay platoon? Send them straight to the front lines… Oh, that’s insensitive.

35. I’m gay an an two term veteran.

    Christopher, your brother is HALF right.

    Integrating open gays WILL cause problems. It WILL be difficult for some people. Nevetheless, it is the right thing to do.

    It was difficult to integrate racial minorities. But they did it. It was (and still is) difficult to integrate women. But they did it.

    The fact that it will be difficult and that it will cause problems is not a valid reason not to integrate gays into the military.

36. Mind you, once we end DADT, the next thing the closeted homophobic Christianists will go on about is bound to be gay marriage amongst military personnel or gay serving soldiers with gay husbands/wives.

    Probably out of envy at their stable relationships is my guess.

37. @78 My brother’s not a conservative bigot. He’s a conservative who’s voted for the liberal candidate in the last two presidential elections.

    @79 I’ve written about my brother a lot and have his consent to write about and quote him.

38. Countries that forbid gays in their military: Cuba, China, Egypt, Greece, Iran, Jamaica, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Singapore, South Korea, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela, Yemen, the USA.

    Countries that allow gays to serve in their military: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the UK, Uruguay.

    Which list would you rather be associated with?

    These lists look a bit like the lists of countries that have or don’t have the death penalty. Interesting.

39. My only familiarity with this situation comes from having been close to a Marine. And he was pretty crazy. He was too far right for the Republican Party.

    Now I don’t know if that’s actually typical. But from what he told me about his experience, there is something about the way they’re trained that messes with your head. Marines are taught to believe they’re separate from, and better than, the rest of the population. That’s how they motivate them to do difficult and terrifying things. This guy thought he was entitled to essentially be pretty brutish — to beat up people who made him angry, to treat women like dirt, to drink to excess — because he’d served his country. And I got the impression that that wasn’t an uncommon attitude.

    What the brother was too delicate to say, I think, is that openly gay servicemen will get ass-raped. Perhaps murdered.

    It is expensive to protect people. What I’ve heard about women in the military is that they do have policies to keep them from being sexually assaulted, obviously not wholly effective, and often there’s bureaucratic stupidity in these policies, and it costs a lot. Add gays and you have to do even more of that, and spend more resources to keep them from being attacked by their fellow soldiers.

    Not that it isn’t the right thing to do. I think repealing DADT would be a great victory. But that is the counterargument. “Loss of unit cohesion” is a euphemism for violence. Can we afford that inevitable rash of violence?

40. @89: Which list would you rather be associated with? Well, the homophobic list is certainly more militarily intimidating.

41. @88 — They missed the point. Pearls before swine.

    I appreciate both your brother’s service and his willingness to talk about it.

42. @88 — They missed the point. Pearls before swine.

    I appreciate both your brother’s service and his willingness to talk about it.

43. 88
    your brother is too kind to tell you to fuck off and leave him alone, you asshole prick

44. From twitter.com/BarackObama
    RT @thejointstaff Stand by what I said: Allowing homosexuals to serve openly is the right thing to do. Comes down to integrity.

45. “We got a lot of dumbass rednecks and general homophobes in the miliary. They would lose their shit if they had to work with known fags. Hell, they can’t handle working with females yet!”

    What a crock of shit.

46. I find it incredibly moving that two brothers who would doubtless walk through fire (bullets or flames) for each other, still hold back a little bit and are awkward in discussing these issues that are so central to their lives. It is evocative of the conversations that so many of us have had with our families and friends, with much less at stake. It is to your great credit that you have both chosen to open yourselves publicly. Thanks.

47. I don’t think it would be any more of a problem than the straight men who sexually harass and rape female soldiers in the US military. That’s the dirty secret.

48. @63: Um, yeah, obviously all the big tough straight soldiers are going to be intimidated and humiliated and sexually harassed by the gay recruits they greatly outnumber. Right.

    “You don’t think that can be tantamount to allowing members of the opposite share the same showers, beds with the added problem that unlike the latter it wouldn’t be something desired by the soldiers?” Loveschild, your ‘swimming out to troopships’ fantasy is showing again…

49. As a vet, who was in combat, and was in the army before DADT:

    I would rather have any of the several gay soldiers that I served with in a foxhole with me over the bigots. Homophobes and bigots were the most dangerous thing I had to deal with in the military. The (some of them openly) gay soldiers that I served with were the model soldiers of my combat unit. I lived with a bigot who blamed Blacks, Jews, and “Faggots” for everything that was wrong in the world. The fuckhead was so dumb he never realized Wise could be a jewish name. I didn’t have to deal with him for long as, SURPRISE, he was kicked out of the Army for his violent acts against other soldiers. Bonus: he was from Fire Island, NY.

    That being said, the openly (as much as you can be in the Army) gay soldiers had special housing above the battalion CQ so anybody that came to visit had to go by a guard. The quietly open and closeted showered right next to me and I didn’t give a shit. Most of the good soldiers didn’t either. Still, the unit had to provide special housing to ensure shitheads like my roommate didn’t attack them for being different.

50. How do the United States manage to be a super-power and yet be so retarded.

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