Mere months after a public outcry forced Amazon.com to ban a Japanese rape-simulation video game called “Rapelay” (to win, you stalk and rape women and force them to get abortions), the company is doing it again—this time, selling a video game called “Stockholm: An Exploration of True Love.” The setup is that you’ve kidnapped a woman and must make her “fall in love with you,” by poisoning her, raping her, and psychologically torturing her. Because abusing women is a game, get it?
Via Feministing.
Often, after reading an ECB post and the resulting thread, I imagine Erica leaning back in her chair with the same satisfied smile that graced Lardass’s vomit-specked lips after starting the Barf-O-Rama.
@45,
He also compared books about GLBT issues to a rape game. He does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
And, no, motherfuckers like him do not consider feminist values to be human values. Your (willful) ignorance of how some men see women as not fully human and thus don’t fully identify with violence perpetuated against women is not my problem.
I wish someone would get put in charge of what I am allowed to buy and not allowed to buy. I am not able to make such decisions for myself.
I wrote Amazon a letter earlier today.
As a gamer, myself, I have to point out that while I am quite fond of gunning down Imperial Stormtroopers, or in the case of the GTA games, resisting arrest by rampaging downtown in a tank, I have no interest in engaging in these activities in real life.
That said, games such as Rapelay or Stockholm shouldn’t be thrown off Amazon because they depict female abuse (unless, say, someone was actually nonconsensually abused in the making of the game). It should be thrown off Amazon if it’s a bad game.
That said, has anyone other than Mr. Hidden Features, Holy God actually played it?
Your problem is that you don’t actually have an argument.
Or perhaps it’s your inability to do anything but steer the conversation back to your f-bomb-laden ad hominems and style over substance fallacies. So he’s a motherfucker, and he used a dumb example. Glad we’ve got that established. Shall we get back to the issue at hand, please?
Keep talking about how everything isn’t your problem, too, that’s bound to win you some support.
That was @52
I enjoy playing GTA III, because in real life I am also a car thief, spree killer, and mafia thug.
I can’t help but wonder if people’s reactions would differ if it were not only females being raped and tortured, but both genders. That being said, while I find this personally repellent, even frightening, it is in fact not actual humans being exploited and mistreated. Now, the torture-porn genre of movies, that shit is NASTY. People who get off on watching that shit have ISSUES.
@49
Julie, thanks for your great posts here. I thought I was the last person in America who understands the definition of censorship. Control of speech by the government is such an enormous evil that it deserves its own word.
Erica, you are barking up the wrong tree. Go after the video game producer and the people who buy it, not retailers.
Basically, you are asking Amazon (and presumably every other game retailer) to review their entire inventory and ban items deemed morally objectionable. That’s a really bad idea, and it would inevitably backfire. Amazon should not be in the business of censoring material. That’s a far greater evil than a few obnoxious video games.
@52:
>He also compared books about GLBT issues to a rape game. He does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Uhh no. You did that when you assumed I equated the two, and completely missed my point.
Look, this game is repugnant. I wouldn’t even want to know the person who came up with it.
Calling for a ban on all misogynistic media from some (not all) factions of feminist activists has been done. Where do you draw the line? Porn? BDSM porn? Sexually submissive women who like to play out rape fantasies? Are they traitors to a cause? There’s a difference between what we act out on stage and do in real life.
Rape in real life certainly is a terrible transgression of human values, regardless of the genders involved.
To say that censorship is censorship regardless of where it comes from is miles away from saying real life rape is only a feminist value or that games like this somehow lead to it.
@48 – There’s no reason to think it was anything but what they said it was because the other explanation doesn’t make any sense. Do you really think Amazon decided one day to remove the sales rank from all of those books on purpose? Why would they do that? Amazon is hardly a right-wing company. That it was intentional was assumed by the people who were upset about it before any explanation came out. It was exacerbated by some clueless PR moves on Amazon’s part.
As a long-time ACLU supporter, it often feels disheartening to spend so much time defending “fringe” expression, but at the same time, it is absolutely necessary to defend free expression and stand against censorship in order to maintain a free society. Yes, this makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but it’s a game. So, if you go ahead and ban it, then what? Y’know, that BDSM porn looks kinda similar, even if they *say* it’s consensual, it’s pretty uncomfortable, we’d better ban that too! And really, isn’t any form of bondage porn uncomfortable and demeaning? Ban! And you know, that “doggystyle” position is degrading and the name is reminiscent of bestiality, we’d better ban all porn with that too… I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this.
This expression is not causing some incredible social blight. The fact that the reaction of just about everyone to it has remained uniformly negative has proved that point. And for those that it would appeal to, chances are they already have those impulses or tendencies, and I’d rather they get their jollies with a video game than, you know, actually going out and kidnapping someone. So, while it’s perfectly acceptable to personally protest such material and those selling it, relegating such things to government censorship, simply to satisfy your own personal comfort level, creates more problems than it solves, especially as an increase in government censorship, regardless of the content, always has a chilling effect on free expression and dissent.
@35 WHERE exactly did I imply that rape was ONLY an issue for feminists and women? I did no such thing. However, if you read the post about this game, you will notice that rape and other forms of violence are being enacted, in this case, on figures of women. Also, one might suggest that said games are supporting certain masculinist fantasies. Basically feminist politics intersects in multiple ways with the politics of “human rights.” However, I think that presenting rape as a generalized issue of “human rights” as you’re overtly doing, ignores the historically established gender dynamics of rape. Because rape has been, historically, a political and economic technology reserved, in large degree, for WOMEN’S bodies and for the “feminization” of the body, as it has been a technology for securing masculinist and patriarchal power structures, feminism has a unique stake in the analysis of this violence. Appeals to generalized “human rights” threaten to elide the role that gender has played and continues to play in modes of domination -capitalism, genocide, slavery, “enhanced interrogation techniques,” etc.
Oh, Erica. I forgive you for being a batshit crazy feminazi who wants to ban everything she doesn’t like.
So, just a question, how much did sales of this game skyrocket after Erica gave it a free plug by hating on it?
Well?
@61, of COURSE Amazon is in the business of censoring material. They do it all the time. EVERY business “censors” the list of products they sell; your grocery store refuses to sell some items every single day.
The thing here is, Amazon sells SO MANY products, and the process is so automated, that no one ever sees what most of them are. They don’t carry extremist “white power” stuff, and it’s unlikely to slip in, simply because the “white power” stuff is mostly excluded from their supply chain. But if some got in, there it would be, and people would be writing “fuck you Amazon” posts over that.
Until they took it down. They take down objectionable material every day, I’m sure. Their system isn’t designed to approve or disapprove every product upon arrival, but it does let them go in and zap stuff afterward.
Like they did with this one.
It’s absurd beyond belief to interpret the existence of this game on their website to support for the ideas inside it. They don’t even know what those ideas are; they don’t know or care what ANY ideas are.
So, where should the line be? Should there be a line at all? Anything at all is ok?
For more intelligent discussion of this issue, see here:
http://imomus.livejournal.com/436631.htm…
So, if this was a game that involved stalking and torturing to death gay men (extra points if you get them to first give you a blow job!), I would just be a silly faggot to be upset that Amazon was selling it?
@67: That’s a quaint little idea you have there that any of the kids nowadays still /buy/ a PC game.
I guaran-damn-tee you there are hacked no-registration torrents of this out there.
Honestly, as a woman, I have no problem with this game. Why? Because I understand that fantasy is not reality. I have rape fantasies, and I spent YEARS of my life ashamed of these fantasies because I was told that fantasizing about rape lead to real rape. For most of my teen years I tried desperately to refocus my erotic energies, to make my sexuality more socially acceptable. When I found myself daydreaming about rape, I moved my thoughts to other things and hoped I would be aroused by them instead. I was not. Time passed, and I was beyond ashamed. I hated myself, and I hated my sex drive.
Did any of this change my fantasies? No, it did not. Instead, I eventually abandoned my attempts to change my sexual desires and embraced the philosophy that just because I like to fantasize about something doesn’t mean I want it to actually happen. I understand that my fantasies about rape have nothing to do with actual rape. Frankly, I don’t see why I would be any different for people who fantasize about raping others. I think they should also be able to say, “I like to fantasize about this, but I know that it wouldn’t work out in reality.”
Fuck you, ECB. What a stupid, pointless post. Do you think an Amazon employee plays/uses every item they sell and writes the description? No, they rely on product data from the vendors or distributors. This goes for the number of pages in a book, track lists and running times on CDs, and (gasp!) descriptions of video games.
What were you histrionic morons so upset about with the amazonfail thing? Oh yeah, you thought (all evidence to the contrary), that Amazon was suppressing items because they contained content that was offensive to some. What are you advocating now?
Yes, rape is bad. I do not want to play this game. But if Wal-mart sells games where I can torch children with a flamethrower (Fallout 3), is this so much worse? Grow up and find a real problem to bitch about.
So, basically, I guess my main question is something along the lines of rape is worse than murder? really?
You must certainly be aware that there are a million fantasy killing games already easily available everywhere. Why would a fantasy raping game be exponentially worse? I just don’t get it.
If I thought for a minute that a game like that would increase the chances of real rape being committed, then it would be different. I’m not able to imagine that being true, though.
As @74 asked,
if Wal-mart sells games where I can torch children with a flamethrower (Fallout 3), is this so much worse?
I would go a step further and ask, how could this even be considered comparable to torching children with a flamethrower?? It’s not even in the same league, is it?
Must resist the urge to make a joke, must resist the urge to make a joke.
It is not a censorship issue to ask Amazon to stop carrying it. That is a customer service issue. Customers can choose whether or not this i a company they want to support based on what they choose to carry and promote. And Amazon can choose whether or not to stop carrying it based on feedback and possible loss of revenue. Or even based on human decency; though I doubt they will take the latter into account.
Censorship is if people were asking for it to be illegal to make/buy.
@74 You might want to learn to write like an adult before telling someone else to grow up.
I don’t get the controversy over Amazon carrying this game. There was a ton of controversy over the Manhunt series of video games, which epitomize the torture-porn genre. It seemed like everyone was mad a Rockstar for making the games, but I didn’t hear from anyone who expected Amazon not to carry them.
@59: I think, if anything, reactions to this might be tempered if the game included rape of both men and women. But just like there’s a bigger market for female porn, I’m sure there’s a bigger market for female rape simulators.
@73
I am a woman as well and I appreciated your comment. I feel the same way, I sometimes like to fantasize about rape. But I would NEVER actually want to be raped. I don’t think we have any control over what arouses us. There’s nothing wrong with any fantasy.
The game seems to be gone off of Amazon, now.
@20: Take a deep breath and stop the name calling. Objecting to rape is a human value. Objecting to the existence of sexist video games is, arguably, a feminist value.
@82 so…feminist aren’t human?
Just wondering, would people be so quick to scream “Freedom of speech” if the game was called say Klansmen and you scored points by lynching blacks. Or Gaybashers and you won by attacking the most homosexuals?
no, fuck you, ECB, for demanding censorship while getting paid by the Stranger. Fuck you, indeed.
I agree with ECB on almost every feminist point she makes, but here I take my stand. If you censor Japanese products depicting acts which are horrible and almost universally illegal in the world, my girlfriend will gut you with a pitchfork. In a drawing – not IRLs – because like most people who like vile art, she never engages in vile acts. I bum my lady out sometimes by telling her someday a supposed liberal democrat will ban her favorite ART from ever being legally seen in the USA. Cool your fucking jets and think twice before calling for censorship, or Mapplethorpe will shit all over you in the afterlife.
@84, yup.
I’d be pissed if Amazon was selling it, and they’d likely stop as soon as someone brought it to their attention. But – whoever produced it has a right to do so, and a right to peddle it from his front step, since no retailer in their right mind would touch a game like that.
@87 Exactly. No retailer would’ve touched a game like that, but plenty will touch one’s targeting women. Plenty of the people on here who think ECB has no right requesting Amazon to ban the one targeting women would likely find it objectionable if it were other groups being targeted (hence their silence at the question).
I find it interesting that people do not understand the difference between requesting a retailer to stop selling/promoting this game and a demand that the manufacturer be commanded to stop it.
@88 I meant a game which fell into any of the above categories – racist, anti-semitic or misogynistic violence; Amazon *did* take the game down within hours of when this post went of it, probably because someone (maybe even ECB) alerted them to the extremely distasteful nature of the game.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Amazon did, for short periods of time (before someone sent an email) sell games that fall into any of the above categories.
As for the request/demand business, I’d note that said issue didn’t come up until a few commenters were attacked rather viciously for saying, basically, that the producer/manufacturers had a right to produce the game, and that if Amazon wanted to ruin their reputation, they had a right to sell it.
@87: Do you really think “Gaybasher” would be more protested than Stockholm? Maybe on the Slog but I think it’s still much more acceptable to attack gays in most venues.
#2: One or the other?! Are you insane? Clearly it’s both! Obviously video games lead to real-life behavior, which is why there are LITERALLY millions of carjackings and murders every year by those who’ve played any of the Grand Theft Auto games. Why, you can hardly walk down a street without seeing a young hoodlum jump out in front of a car, drag the driver out and drive off, only to have the same thing happen to him about 20 yards further down the road. It’s the apocalypse – THE APOCALYPSE, I SAY! Goodness, it’s great that there are still some of us around who can tell the difference between reality and fantasy while rightly pointing out that NO ONE ELSE CAN. Keep up the good work, I say – but don’t understate it! Clearly any simulation of any activity performed by anyone EVER is going to cause them to run out and do the real thing!
Dear Sirs,
I find the game highly offensive.
I find Amazon highly offensive.
I find the comments highly offensive.
It’s a very simple fact that these games TRULY DO have an impact on those who play them. It is undeniable and to even consider otherwise is to be naïve at best and a sociopath at worst.
I would never want to play this game and firmly believe that no one should ever be allowed to play it either. It is dangerous and evil with only one possible outcome – the mass creation of serial rapists.
Is that really where we want to be spending our collective creative energy? Where are the games on how to improve the world? Why can’t someone see the value of positive games compared to the on-going danger of violent games.
A few years ago I had the misfortune to try one of these so-called “games” a flight simulator game. After only 2 weeks of obsessive compulsive play, I jumped in an F-16 fighter jet and went on a 36-hour joy ride.
Yet another game, gave me the wisdom and experience to ward off attacks by alien space invaders. After another game I was ready to maneuver flying ostriches against pterodactyls with a jousting lance.
The wide-reaching implications of cause and effect go on and on.
We must put an end to this madness at once.
Thank you for your attention and please send me my power-up to totallyserious@ireallymeanit.org
Free Speech is Free Speech — the Stranger staff just about had a fit with the whole Amazon “butt-fucking literature” ratings a while ago and now we have ECB on her “I am woman hear me roar” horse because they *won’t* censor/remove these. As usual, Amazon gets blamed regardless of what they do.
These games sound nasty, but they appear to be legal, so WTF is the beef?
@84 Yes I would still claim they have the right to produce it and I have the right to think it’s trash. An even more pertinent question is, how many people here would have had any issue with a game where you’re a woman who scores points by castrating men?
@ 94, if it was a good game…
(Good: good meaning: fun, bug free, adequate production values, intriguing storyline, etc. etc.)
…not one jot [of issue].
Hi All – this is Max Shearson, outreach coordinator at RMD Global. I’ll keep this short: the response and outrage to “Stockholm: An Exploration of True Love” is understandable. After all, it does challenge core ideas of modern American society. But I think that some of the reactions have been quick and emotional, rather than careful and considered.
At our site, authors, filmmakers, and even the CEO of RMD Global have shared their views on the recent Banning of “Stockholm.” The site is http://rmdglobal.net/stockholm/ I know that anyone as dedicated to a cause as many of you are will want to consider all rational perspectives.
All we’re asking is that you consider a few other points of view, and, if you agree, to sign the online petition, or even leave any helpful comments.
-Max
@90 Yes, I do think it would be.
“I bum my lady out sometimes by telling her someday a supposed liberal democrat will ban her favorite ART from ever being legally seen in the USA.” There are thousands of tongue-clucking faux-liberal politicians out there. Liebermans, every Blue-Dog Dem, etc. Even the Clintons play conservative “think of the children” on a fairly regular basis.
Does the Stranger realize they’ve hired a totalitarian, close-minded, anger/fear-filled writer whose schtick is to advocate taking away of freedoms? Her fear of public transportation being available to the public, her fear of the existence of Republicans, her pre-civilized rants about how she’s unwilling to find common ground with those that oppose her perspective (and a very myoptic vision of culture and politics it seems to be.)… it really grates on the nerves.
Ah well, I guess there are worse things than to be the local, female liberal version of Rush Limbaugh. Erica sure does get her posts numbers up so, I guess that means she’s doing her real job and some people actually do feel her writing captures the extent of their thoughts.
Because everyone knows that playing this game means you’re currently beating women.
You sound like Rob Mckenna, telling us that every single person who looks at naked children is currently holding children as sexual slaves. I understand the acts are bad, but there’s a clear line between fantasy and reality, between a disagreement and a crime.