I’m glad Lindy West loves herself and her body, and I’m happy that she’s done with shame, and I think she’s beautiful and charismatic and hilarious and I always have. I take issue, however, with Lindy’s setting me up as some sort of boogey/straw man, attributing prejudices to me that I do not feel, and attempting to purge her fatshame by fathateshaming me. Arguing that the obesity epidemic should be off limits for discussion on Slog—or that Stranger writers, a notoriously snarky bunch, must slip on kid gloves before we sit down at our computers to post about this issue and this issue alone (really? at a publication that’s joked about child rape, AIDS, and the Holocaust?)—because “fat people know they’re fat” is simply ridiculous.
There are two things I’d like to clear up before I really get going…
Thing 1: I’m not Lindy West’s “boss.” I didn’t hire her, I don’t have the authority to fire her, I don’t edit her. Lindy’s post was courageous and it was inspiring—until the ad hominem attacks began—but it wasn’t standing-up-to-the-boss brave. Because I’m not her boss. I could probably get her fired, I suppose, but I wouldn’t try to do that, because she’s brilliant and funny and, even if she disagrees with me, even if we come to rhetorical blows on Slog, we all argue all the time on Slog. What would Slog be without our intramural battles? What’s different about Lindy’s post is the personal nature of Lindy’s attack. She’s accusing me of bigotry and malice—she’s accusing me of attacking her personally, which I’ve never done and would not do.
Thing 2: I was out of email, cell, and Internet range all weekend, starting Friday afternoon, and didn’t get a chance to really sit down and read Lindy’s post until late last night, and that’s why I’m only just responding to it now.
Okay! Let the record show that I love that Lindy loves Lindy—everybody loves Lindy and so should Lindy—but I’m not so in love with the way Lindy used this quote from a Savage Love column I wrote more than seven years ago:
I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly—characterized as “hate speech.”
That sounds bad floating out there in space like that, all removed from its original context and shit.
That’s one sentence from a column that came at the end of a series of columns—a series of columns from 2004—that was not about the general unsightliness of fat people. It was about the late, unlamented fad for skin-tight, low-rise jeans coupled with midriff-baring tops. (The columns are here, here, and here.) The columns weren’t just critical of overweight or obese women in low-rise jeans and midriff-baring tops, but of women who didn’t have the right “proportions” to pull off that look; “most women” didn’t look good in these getups, not just fat women. (Men came in for some slamming too.) In its original context the remark was not a reference to fat people’s bodies generally, or a suggestion that fat people didn’t have a right to live in their own bodies without shame (or wear those stupid jeans if they wished), but to a particular kind of pants that do not flatter most bodies, pants that created and exposed unsightly rolls of flesh on fat women, not-so-fat women, and not-at-all-fat women alike, pants that have mercifully been consigned to the dustbin of fashion history. I suspect that Lindy was casting around looking for the most damning possible sentence, found that one, and tossed it up on Slog. It’s that or believe that Lindy was intentionally dishonest and manipulative. (And, yes, it could’ve been better put. Allow me to amend the record: “I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly—characterized as ‘hate speech.'” And thank God no one wears those fucking things anymore.)
As for the rest of the evidence of my supposed bigotry that Lindy links to in her post—sometimes snarky posts of mine linking to news stories about the obesity epidemic; links to research that gives lie to the diet-and-exercise-have-nothing-to-do-with-the-obesity-epidemic lie pushed by dishonest, vindictive, and codependent fat activists; a post of mine featuring a Tim Minchin song that I labeled “brutal” and “bullying” but whose title I happen to agree with strongly (can we all agree that people shouldn’t feed donuts to their obese children?); discussions in a book I wrote a decade ago about the crazy fat people at the NAAFA convention (there are crazy fat people out there, Lindy, just as there are crazy gay people out there; be careful who you crawl into bed now that you’re a “brave” hero to the FA movement for standing up to your bigoted “boss”)—the bigotry in my posts exists only in Lindy’s imagination. (Okay, I totally crossed the line when I made fun of Kate Harding’s arms, which I’ve never even seen (they could be made of steel for all I know), and for that I apologize. I could dig up a few hundred emails from FA movement folks calling me a cocksucker, if it that would help balance the scales.)
Take Lindy’s reaction to my “Ban Fat Marriage” post. Opponents of marriage equality in Iowa claim they want to ban gay marriage because gay men are unhealthy. By that logic, I wrote, “fat marraige” would also have to be banned in Iowa. Did I mean that fat people shouldn’t be allowed to marry? Of course not. Does pointing out that there are a lot of fat people in Iowa—30% of the population of that state is obese—somehow “stigmatize” fat people? Um, no, not unless the existence of fat people is somehow inherently stigmatizing. I did point out that there are health risks associated with being obese—I had to in order to make the point that Republican legislators in Iowa are bigots—and you know what? There are health risks associated with being obese. There are also, as I’ve written until my fingers were numb, health risks associated with being gay and sexually active. (They’re not the ones the bigots in Iowa are talking up; more on those health risks in a minute). Citing the prevalence of obesity in Iowa and mentioning the health risks associated with obesity to make a point about bigotry isn’t by itself bigotry. So what was up with Lindy’s reaction to that post? I think this reader is on to something:
I read your “Ban Fat Marriage” post. Applying the arguments for position X to analogous position Y in order to show that both arguments are spurious and indefensible is a standard and often effective tactic. Perhaps as a matter of discretion, you left out the “ick factor” that is often applied to gay (man-on-man, that is) sex, which could easily go with fat-on-fat sex as well, but when I mentioned the article to my spouse, I threw that in. Then I saw Lindy West’s reactions “RE: Ban Fat Marriage” and “Hello, I am Fat.” Apparently, Lindy isn’t very good with reading comprehension, which is kind of startling since she writes for a living. Or maybe she suspends her reading comprehension and reasoning skills whenever the subject of “fat” is broached. I’d wager the latter is the case.
I’m going to start numbering these things, à la Lindy, because I wanna get through this and return to my regularly scheduled life:
1. Lindy cites that particular quote, above, as proof that I’m a bigot. She claims to know what I think about fat people and how I feel about fat people and leaps from there to claims that I think fat people are gross and that I don’t want fat people touching me (no more hugging my relatives, I guess), which she then condemns me for. Ad hominemineminem. (I’m on an airplane sitting next to a fat person RIGHT NOW, Lindy! A fat person I’m sharing my NYT with! I even let her do the crossword! Because I HATE!) It’s hard to disprove a charge of bigotry without resorting to some-of-my-best-friends-are—and on this subject I can resort to I-once-was-myself (relevant email from my brother after the jump)—but I’m not an anti-fat bigot ,and one piece of material evidence I could point to might be all the people of varying sizes that I have hired or had a hand in hiring over the years. The first thing I said to Lindy when we met in person wasn’t “Unsightly! Unsightly!” but “Your film reviews are amazing—we’ve got to get you on staff.” If that’s bigotry… (Discrimination in the workplace is a huge problem for the obese… but not at the Stranger, despite the place being partly run by a fatpohbic bigot. Weird.)
2. I never claimed to be concerned about Lindy’s health. The science is in: obesity has serious potential health consequences. Which is not to say that all the obese folks are unhealthy and all the skinny bitches are healthy. Individual results may vary. But being seriously overweight is likely to harm a person’s health. That said…
I have always maintained that people have a right to live their lives and pursue their pleasures, wherever they find them, even if there are potential negative health consequences, even at the risk of shortening their lives. There are health consequences to being obese—the First Lady agrees, Lindy, go get her!—but like I wrote at the end of the gluttony chapter in Skipping Towards Gomorrah, we should all have the right to live however we damn well please without being stigmatized or discriminated against. But we don’t have a right to demand that other people pretend that there aren’t health consequences involved with being obese, with smoking, with eating meat, with skiing, and, yes, with being gay and sexually active. Sexually active gay men have much higher rates of sexually transmitted infections, higher rates of HIV transmission, higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse (sometimes that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it’s rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for creating and perpetuating). I’ve written about the risks gay men face—the potential negative health consequences of being gay and sexually active—until my fingers were ready to fall off. Was that bigoted of me?
3. I could give a shit about health-insurance premiums. I support a government-run, single-payer health care system, one that spreads everyone’s risks around—the obese, the gay, the smoker, the skier, etc. I’ve no doubt linked to stories about the health care costs associated with the obesity epidemic because, you know, it’s an aspect of the obesity-epidemic story and I’m interested in this story. (I’m a sex-and-relationship columnist; I could no more avoid questions about bodies and health and size than I could avoid questions about blowjobs and assfucking and cunnilingus.) I believe that the extra burden the obese place on our health care system should be borne without complaint just as the extra burden the HIV-positive place on the health-care system should. (And, hey, have I mentioned that my seventy-year-old dad is a smoker and on Medicare?) But there’s nothing bigoted about encouraging the obese to take steps to improve their health—that usually means making the kinds of changes that lead to weight loss—any more than there’s something bigoted about encouraging gay men to use condoms, fuck fewer people, stop using meth, etc.
4. I’m interested in the obesity epidemic—what causes it, how it got this bad, what we’re going to do about it—and I’m angered by what I perceive to be the dishonestly of many FA movement activists. I think the obesity epidemic is remarkable, which is why I remark on it, and I will continue to remark on it so long as I’m blogging, and I reserve the right to make the odd snarky remark. I will continue to post the links to stories about the obesity epidemic that catch my eye, stories like this that give the lie to the whole lack-of-exercise-has-nothing-to-do-with-it crap pushed by fat-acceptance crowd:
Adult obesity rates rose in 28 states last year, the report says…. Among the [report’s] findings: In a dozen states, more adults reported getting absolutely no regular physical activity beyond their jobs. It’s not likely a coincidence that the fattest state, Mississippi, also has the highest rate of physical inactivity in adults. There was a lot of overlap in the most-obese and least-active lists.
This stuff interests me not just because it pisses off the FA crowd. It’s interesting all on its own.
5. The takeaway from Lindy’s post—once the euphoria of our pleasure in Lindy’s triumph over her self-loathing fades—seems to be this: Fat people already feel bad, so shut up. Reading about obesity reminds fat people they’re fat and they already know they’re fat and feel bad about being fat, so shut up. And diet and exercise never work and even if they worked for you it’s unpossible for a heavy person to keep the weight off so why bother, so shut up. And shut up because your not shutting up is making it harder for fat people not to hate themselves and only after fat people stop hating themselves and lose the shame can they… begin to lose the weight that they can’t actually lose. And shut up.
I find that very confusing and confused.
And finally…
Look, Lindy, I hear you. You don’t like my posts about obesity. You don’t think they’re helpful. They’re not necessarily meant to be helpful. You seem to assume that I post in the hope that fat people will read my posts and drop the weight. That’s not my motivation; neither is shaming fat people. I’m interested in the obesity epidemic and I’m following the news about it and I assume other people are too and I’m posting about it and I’m ticked off about some aspects of it (including, yes, the vitriol that has been aimed at me over the years). And, yes, I believe that people should be fit—fit, not skinny; active, not sticks—not because Fat Is Gross, but because healthy—which doesn’t always translate to skinny—is better than non-healthy. It’s pretty much the same reason why I think people shouldn’t smoke or fuck strangers without protection or play on railroad tracks or smoke meth or vote Republican.
I am not, however, responsible for your shame (RIP). You arrived at my posts with your shame, my posts didn’t create it, and you managed to conquer your shame despite my posts. Good for you. (No snark intended in that “good for you.” Seriously, Lindy, good for you.) If you don’t want to read my posts about this subject—about any subject—just skip ’em.
And finally-for-real-finallyfinallyfinally… if you had written to me at my column seeking my advice about all of this (and I realize you didn’t and I realize that now I’m the one pretending that I can read your thoughts—but, hey, you pretended you could read mine, so looks like we’re even), here’s what I would have to said after reading your letter: It sounds like you’re externalizing an internal conflict about being fat—you’re projecting your anger and self-loathing onto to me, and seeing malice and bigotry where none exists, and perhaps that’s useful because that anger seems to be liberating and motivating. If having your own personal boogeyman on Slog helps you conquer your shame and love your body and this helps you break out of old, self-destructive patterns and habits (you can’t be losing weight now just because your attitude changed), then I’m happy to be your own personal boogeyman. But honestly, Lindy, you don’t need one. You’re stronger than that.
Here’s the email from my brother Bill…
When you do have time to respond to Lindy: note how often these people (LW included) use anecdotal evidence and generalize to the Whole World about it. She cannot lose weight dieting, so it’s not possible. Then you might talk about our family.
You were fat as a kid. You started exercising and eating right and voila, you’re not fat.
Other family members, not so much. Post a link to our CHF talk, where I look like fucking buddha for crissakes. if you and I both have genetically preset weights which our bodies just naturally go to, then we’d be roughly similar given our shared genetic backgrounds. But I don’t exercise as much as you do (my biking not withstanding, I haven’t been to a gym in years) and I don’t eat as well as you do and so I’m 20 to 25 lbs overweight.
You and Eddie exercise a lot, eat right and are in good shape.
If they get to generalize anecdotes about themselves, so do you.
The ultimate irony in all of this? I still feel like the fat kid.
Dan, I for one think you are 100% in the right here with regard to your defense of your comments and opinion that Lindy, though a smart women and someone you generally like, is perhaps being a bit touchy about this one subject only. She works at the Stranger – it’s like being Jewish writer on South Park bashing everyone and having a blast and then quitting the moment Jews are the butt. Lindy needs to chill out and apologize for jumping the gun and doing something so unprofessional as to attack your coworker in a public forum and catch him by surprise (I’m sorry… WTF?!). He did a pretty good job defending himself (which he CLEARLY had no other choice but to do) while trying to be respectful of Lindy and her post (and her OBVIOUS issues with obesity) and I for one think he deserves accolades, not condemnation.
–Longtime reader
Dan, I for one think you are 100% in the right here with regard to your defense of your comments and opinion that Lindy, though a smart women and someone you generally like, is perhaps being a bit touchy about this one subject only. She works at the Stranger – it’s like being Jewish writer on South Park bashing everyone and having a blast and then quitting the moment Jews are the butt. Lindy needs to chill out and apologize for jumping the gun and doing something so unprofessional as to attack your coworker in a public forum and catch him by surprise (I’m sorry… WTF?!). He did a pretty good job defending himself (which he CLEARLY had no other choice but to do) while trying to be respectful of Lindy and her post (and her OBVIOUS issues with obesity) and I for one think he deserves accolades, not condemnation.
–Longtime reader
I adore Lindy West and what she has added to the Stranger’s writing pool. I adore Dan Savage and how he has shaped our community as editor of the Stranger.
I appreciate her post because I identified with it and that’s a good thing. It made me smile. Job done. Also, it was a different point of view on the SLOG than I used to (and I read this darn thing every day). I intended to post originally that I appreciate Dan for his “stir the pot” posts to the slog on many topics, weight being one of them. Isn’t that what he should be doing? Making us think and argue? But, as an important figure in our community, I adore him and I fear him. I fear that he will show up to a burlesque show I am in and write about it and how my body is not fun to watch (even if it was). I fear he will attend a roller derby bout and write about the girls and how their bodies and say nothing about the event or the sport. But I know these are just fears; they are my imagination. I know I am not that important or that Dan doesn’t really dislike me or my art or my favorite sport. But somehow, over the years, I got the impression that I would rather have anyone BUT Dan comment on these things if they pertain to me or people I know. It may not be true but the impression I built over the years is that, should we ever meet, Dan would disregard me for my size. And it was nice to hear someone who works with him sorta felt the same way.
@355, no I don’t think he should have to apologize. He didn’t say anything wrong, and like I said he offends a lot of people. If you don’t like it, go away.
I do apologize about being mean to Lindy, but I had just finished reading the posts and I was pissed. I just hate people not taking personal accoutantability for their actions and blaming someone else for their problems with themselves. I also hate that her inability to think about the post and previous comments of Dan critically made everybosy hate on Dan. There were people saying he should step down!! Really, because a sarcastic woman who should have great reading comprehension takes offense? She offends people all the time as well. Thinking you’re overweight or being overweight doesn’t give you a right to censor people. People need to get over themselves.
@hydroza: Just curious, does your admonition that Dan be “kind to unhappy people” apply to everyone, or just those who are offended when he posts something about weight? Because if it applies to everyone, I’m thinking he may have to cancel the Savage Love column.
Whoa. Somebody spelled “voila” correctly in an email. I don’t want to tell you how many times I’ve seen people write “wa-laa”, and how I’ve longed to cry over it. Seriously, that made my day.
@canuck: yes. he should not ridicule people out of the blue sky for their failings. it’s totally needless. there are kind ways to give advice, and there are ways to be funny without shaming miserable people. i personally dislike children, like a whole lot, but i don’t go around kicking little kids in the face.
is this news? ‘cos i feel like this is pretty basic shit.
-hydrozOa
@291: I know. Like how sad it was for Bush when Kanye said he didn’t care about black people. When there are accusations of bigotry, the most important thing is definitely how attacked the alleged bigot feels. Really, that should just stop all conversation, don’t you think?
@361 said: “I just hate people not taking personal accoutantability for their actions and blaming someone else for their problems with themselves.”
Dan is being blamed not for making anyone fat, but for allowing his disgust to seep through consistently when discussing fat people. Fat people are already self-conscious, ashamed, and attempting to deal with their weight. Pointing out the laws of thermodynamics is asinine and unhelpful, if indeed you or Dan intend to be supportive.
Dan thinks being overweight is a huge moral failing–I get it. You’re both skinny and thus better than others. But Jared Diamond would spank you for such a lack of analysis. What’s really causing the global epidemic of obesity? Everyone suddenly lacks self-discipline? Is moralizing about it going to motivate anyone?
I don’t really think anyone except those who’ve struggled with obesity actually know what they’re talking about here. Most of you just want to use this issue as a way to make yourself feel superior to those with weight problems.
Oh jeez, fat people, knock it off. I’m fat too – I’m 5’8″ and 230 lbs – and I too have spent a lifetime doing the whole diet blah blah that women in our society do. And if someone like me wants you all to just calm the hell down and stop being so self righteous, then you know you need to hear it.
Lindy made a few good points, but her column wasn’t some fat people manifesto. From the comments section, you’d have thought she’d died for our sins. For the record, I’m not ashamed of being the size I am, either. It’s sure hard on my goddam knees, though, and I wish I had not gone on the three year binge that brought me here.
I’m never going to be a size two, but I sure as hell could be a size sixteen if I smartened up. Why should it be a sin to say so?
#357: “I don’t have the experience of having struggled for years to loose (sic) weight and just not managed it. To me, what he says about obesity and loosing (sic) weight just makes sense.”
To YOU. ExACTly. See, most fat people? In addition to already being ashamed? Have tried and tried to lose weight; have lost it and re-gained it. 95% of all successful dieters re-gain the weight back and MORE within five years. Do the fucking math, you fucking idiots, and understand that just because someone is fat doesn’t mean you know ANYTHING else about how they eat, or how much they exercise. It’s not a matter of “personal responsibility;” it’s a matter of courtesy. Just because something is a certain way for YOU does not mean it is the same for EVERYONE. How is this difficult?
#346: “What I hear from Dan, because he’s a sex columnist, is stuff about bodies, and the stuff Dan says about fat people’s bodies is tinged with disgust. If a bunch of fat people say that to you, you might want to listen. “
Yes. This. LISTEN. Jesus.
A well-reasoned and constructed response.
LW seemed to be projecting and appears to have gone on the attack to justify some serious denial. I perceive Dan to be saying, “I don’t give a shit if you are fat, but there’s an awful lot of people in this country who are fat and an awful lot of consequences flow from that — aesthetic, health, economic. Let’s talk about that.” Only some serious denial would lead a fat person to attack the soundness of Dan’s contribution to the marketplace of ideas.
I come from a long line of seriously obese people, and as a former fatty myself, here’s the deal: Don’t eat like an idiot and exercise. No matter your weight, those to things make you healthier.
What really prompts me to comment, however, is that I cannot stand when people, as LW does in this case, attack the messenger, rather than the message. Nothing more transparent than the insecure arguing a position as a means to justify their denial in an attempt to resolve their cognitive dissonance. All of us have feet of clay, and arguing that you’re perfect just the way you are and failing to acknowledge where you could use some work is a fool’s errand, doomed from the start.
Thanks, Dan, and keep up the good work. Illegitimis non carborundum.
@ 363 It’s spelled voilà, with an accent on the a.
Dan, I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I’m assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit. Maybe you know how that feels. You are watching a film, and out of nowhere a character does or says something homophobic. It’s a painful shock to the system, and you try to let it roll over you, but you feel angry and ashamed anyway.
You say, I don’t have to read it, but it’s right there as I scroll through your posts. Fuck you and fuck your supposed concern about fat people’s health. Whenever I read you complaining about fat people, I don’t feel disgusted with them, I feel disgusted with you. I agree with your social and political commentary, but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling. There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren’t *trying*.
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/35…
The epidemiology of overweight and obesity: public health crisis or moral panic?
Dan, I have a hard time reading this blog. I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I’m assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit. You say, I don;t have to read it, but it’s right there as I scroll through your posts. Fuck you and fuck your supposed concern about fat people’s health. Your standing on your moral high ground of thinness and looking down on a lot of people who are struggling.
The epidemiology of overweight and obesi…
(I guess I did that wrong the first time)
@myself, 364:
you know, i take that back. the kicking-kids-in-the-face thing is a bad analogy. i was barking up the “taking candy from a baby” tree, but it’s not quite right. also, i shouldn’t have said “ridiculing people for their failings,” because being fat is only subjectively a failing.
i think the smoking analogy is pretty airtight. i have several close friends who smoke. i personally find it repulsive, but i’m not going to sit there and tell them about it. they know the health risks, and they don’t enjoy being addicted to something that makes them sick. they fucking hate it. they smoke because they’re because they’re addicted to nicotine, and because they’re stressed out about shit and it makes them feel better momentarily. they want to quit, but it’s really fucking hard, and they don’t know how.
i love my friends, and i don’t want to make them even unhappier by bitching to them about how they’re headed for early graves. that’s not going to make them quit–it’s just going to stress them out more–and unless i’m expected to live with them and/or kiss them, it’s not ultimately any of my business.
yeah, i wish they would quit, and so do they, because they are not morons, so the best thing i can do is be supportive if and when they want to make a change. to hassle them about it is disrespectful and unkind. aka a total dick move.
Well, this is so far down that no one is going to read it. But I just needed to say – GO DAN!
The reason your advice is so valuable is that it’s never feel-good platitudes. You tell the truth, even when the truth is tough to hear for some people.
Myself, I’m not terribly skinny. But you know what? That’s my decision. I’ve kinda balanced out the negative aspects of being not-so-fit and ‘weighed’ them against the misery of dieting. I feel that I’m at a happy medium, for me.
However, to deny that MORE people would find me attractive if I were thinner, or to deny that I would be healthier at a lower weight, or if I ate less, would be just that – denial.
However, I like food, and it’s not like no one finds me attractive, so I’m fine with that. I don’t need some “fat acceptance” person giving me some speech to puff me up, either. I take responsibility for myself and my own body.
So I’ve never found anything Dan has said to be insulting or shaming – because I’m not ashamed of myself. I don’t mind hearing the truth.
The fact is, that societies are always going to find the unusual and exceptional attractive. When being plump was a rare sign of wealth and access to luxury, Rubenesque figures were considered attractive. Now that the average person is heavy, the exceptionally thin figure is considered to be attractive by many people. That’s just the way it is, and if a person lets that make them depressed and unhappy – well, all I can say is, there’s a lot more serious things out there in the world to get depressed about if you insist on being depressed.
Well said, Jen.
@ 376 – As far as I’m concerned, you’re the model of fat acceptance – as it should be, not as it is defined nowadays by people who essentially don’t accept themselves…
@372
Thank you!!! This is EXACTLY the sort of article I wish Dan would read and discuss if he wants to wade into the “obesity epidemic” discussion.
I personally am hoping to go to grad school for medical anthropology and specialize in this exact topic. “Obesity” is such a fascinating, complex issue; it’s exactly the sort of topic medical anthropology was invented for. I wish more people would take the time to read these sort of articles, instead of ab nauseum repeating a one page pop-medical article they read in a fitness magazine.
@351, 377, many others: it is great that Lindy is overcoming her pain. However, it will be better when she can overcome her pain without attacking others; when she truly stops being defensive. This does not AT ALL negate the distance she’s come so far, and indeed she is most of the way there. We all go through ‘hater’ phases when we come to terms with things we used not to like about ourselves; some feminists go through a man-hating phase, some fat people go through a skinny-people-hating phase, some people of color go through a white-people-hating phase, some gays through an opposite-gender- or straight-hating phase, etc. etc. And all the while, we tend to see some attacks that are not really attacks. Sometimes when we feel bad about something, it’s because we over-interpret our own pain, not because someone was being cruel. Merely being reminded that you are overweight and that there are a couple of people out there who don’t like overweight people (and disregarding the plethora of people who like overweight people or don’t give a fuck) is not an attack. In time those reactions will fade, once you’re more like 98% comfortable with yourself rather than 75%. I congratulate Lindy with how far she’s come, and she’s making a great stand; I hope her positive message will reach other people not happy with their appearance, but not the more negative one. Dan, sorry you are the straw man in all of this; it is a result of your fame and nothing more. Obama made a good quote to Bill O’Reiley recently, he said that people who attack you don’t know you. That’s where you are, unfortunately. But by all means keep qualifying your statements to the best of your ability so it’s clear you don’t hate fat people just because you don’t find them attractive (as if you found any women attractive!!). You just have to keep reassuring people who are, as a group (though not all of them), insecure at this point and place in time.
Yeah, 376, that’s kinda my feeling, too – I don’t find what Dan says to be fat-shaming, because I’m fat, and when I read it I’m not ashamed.
I know I’m fat, and I know why. I know that to some extent it’s genetic, so why be ashamed of that, and to some extent it’s because of my choices. My choices that I’ve made, and which I own – so why be ashamed of that?
Diet and exercise work differently for different people, sure. Lots of people are overweight at a level of diet and exercise that would have another person be normal. But NOBODY is *obese*, without making choices that put them there. So why not just own up to it, and stop hiding behind “society’s messages”? You can say “Yeah, I’d rather eat pie than broccoli, and I’m willing to pay the price”. Jeez, tell the truth and shame the devil.
“Dan, I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I’m assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit.”
–Um, he’s not fat-shaming. He’s linking to articles and studies about the obesity epidemic. If obesity “facts” and “studies” offends you than that’s not Dan’s fault. Sounds like you have a beef with reality.
“You are watching a film, and out of nowhere a character does or says something homophobic. It’s a painful shock to the system, and you try to let it roll over you, but you feel angry and ashamed anyway.”
–Irrelevant. Dan hasn’t said anything that’s…uh, lipid-phobic/fat-phobic, what have you. He’s said it’s unhealthy though…which is a fact…which is maybe something you’re having an issue with?
“but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling”
–How? Where in his posts does he ridicule fat people for trying?
“There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren’t *trying*.”
–I’m going to guess that you meant “there wouldn’t be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren’t ‘trying’. Anyways, obviously this diet industry isn’t the answer for America’s obesity epidemic. People always looking for quick fixes, that magical pill, or that newly discovered plant from Africa or berry from Brazil to solve their weight problems instead of exercising and eating right. That’s why the diet industry exists.
You know, Lindy didn’t misread your post. She understood that you were saying that it would be ridiculous to ban fat marriage, even though all the same arguments apply, and argued that this was a tacit admission that fat people face many of the same social stigmas that gay people do (although, of course, they are still allowed to marry). So, she reasoned, if you were admitting that, then did that mean you would stop saying things that she, as a fat person, finds hurtful?
Dan, I actually think you are mostly in the right here; in fact, your compassionate answers to readers with weight problems have actually made me feel better about myself, while also motivating me to work on my own weight problems and body issues. And I’ve never been offended by anything you’ve written. That being said, I can also see where Lindy is coming from. The issue isn’t whether or not being obese is bad for you, it’s that people feel the need to point this out constantly without even the slightest provocation. It’s also not about whether or not eating right and exercising is all that most people need to do to get their weight off (because, yes, it often helps) — it’s that you assume that the person you’re telling this to is one of those people who just hasn’t tried it yet. (Fat acceptance people generalize this to “assuming that most fat people haven’t tried it”; I think there’s a problem here where there are many communities with people who have all tried it and failed, and many where people haven’t tried it, and the former get upset when you conflate them with the latter.) Anyway, overall, yes, you are right, but the way you phrase it makes you come across as being really patronizing, and people resent being patronized and talked down to. (To preempt the inevitable answer to this, even though I don’t think you’d actually argue this: yes, they *could* just not read your column or anything you write, but if they enjoy your column and otherwise think that you have a great attitude towards the whole controversy, is it really fair to tell them to just stop reading? Especially since your column is nominally about a completely different subject, and the rhetoric they object to tends to be thrown in without warning.)
One of the earlier commenters in this thread — Canuck, I think? — illustrates this patronizing attitude very well: she compares it (pointing out the health risks of being obese) to how she didn’t let her kids drink soda, etc. Guess what, lady, when you do it to people who are not your kids, it doesn’t matter how well-intentioned it is — it boils down to the fact that you are, by your own admission, treating them like children. That dynamic is avoidable if it’s someone you know *extremely* well and you choose your words carefully, but other than that, it’s always going to come across badly.
Not that anyone will read this, since it’s like the 400th comment and I’m unregistered and have a terrible parentheses fetish. But, no one else seemed to be saying it, so…yeah.
@ 372, 379 – I make a stopover in an American airport once or twice a year, and quite frankly, it’s striking to me how many people I see there (proportionally) whose belly touches their knees – staff and travellers, so obviously not only poor people. I’ve visited around 30 countries, and that’s unique to the States. The proportion of bearish types, i.e. big strong guys with a belly, is also unequalled in any country I know.
I spend most of my time in Mexico, the second country in the world in obesity statistics, and although you see a whole lot of roundish people, most of the (not very many) ones I’ve met who were seriously obese had spent many years in the States.
So maybe it’s only the really fat people who are getting fatter, as this study seems to say, but any non-American who has eyes to see and money to travel (or who works in the tourist industry) would tell you the same thing: Americans are huge. In general. They may not be the only ones, but they are the hugest on average. I’d say this studies’ data is lacking.
I had this short bearish friend from NY who was hot as hell at around 220 pounds. But then he ballooned by about 80-100 pounds in one year, and he looked like a black Michelin man. What was his reaction? He started bitching that the people from the countries he visited were abnormally thin. Until his doctor told him to lose the weight for health reasons, that is.
Denial didn’t help his heart, losing weight did.
jesus christ.
FAT is NOT FIT!
you need not justify yourself, dan, and lindy was off-base in her attack of you- me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
anyway – i feel for those people for whom food is an addiction, as proven by MRI scans, and i am not speaking about these people. but give me a BREAK – you are FAT because you EAT TOO MUCH. fine, embrace the fat, that’s awesome, but don’t pretend that it’s healthy, attractive or that you don’t want to “deprive” yourself. I’m thin and fit and eat chocolate everyday, go out at least 3x weekly to dinner and drinks and don’t give a hoot about calories, but i work out and my status quo is to eat healthy by packing my lunch everyday and getting off my ass. not spending hours redirecting my lameness towards dan savage.
@384
You might be noticing it because you are primed to notice it: international media is constantly harping on Americans as being the fattest in the world, and so you are prepared to find evidence to fit your previous knowledge (that’s human nature.)
It’s also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel. In other countries, perhaps it is only the richest who are traveling, and also the richest who are working out, so you’re not seeing an accurate “average” representation.
Lastly, while individual observation and experience is great, it’s not scientific. Studies DO suggest Americans are a fatter country, but we are not the fattest, and we are not even the fattest of the industrial countries by a large margin (http://www.expatify.com/news/the-worlds-….)
Your observations are your observations but they are not proof of fact. And even if your observations WERE true, and Americans were by far the fattest of the world AND far outweighing other nations by a heavy margin, what would it prove?
Dan, I’m pretty much entirely with you on this one. Good for Lindy re: shamedeath, but she got a lot wrong in her post. Other commenters have already said it better than I have, so I’ll just send you my kudos, and this one caveat: comparing being fat and being on meth was probably a bad call, from a winning-fights-on-the-internet standpoint.
Finally: so glad those pants went out of style.
This is exhausting. I really hope you guys kiss and make up soon, and get back to writing great snarky sex columns and great snarky movie reviews.
Dan, I don’t really think you could be that bigoted against fat people, since you’re the main reason why I can really, fully, joyfully accept my love of them. I fantasize about them, I’m so lucky to have a great and sexy relationsip with one, and, while I used to think i would feel embarrassed being a relatively in-shape guy with a large man with his arm over my shoulders, because of you I have *no* compunction walking down the street like that now. Thank you for all you do to help fat people be more accepted!
I think fat people touch a nerve with Dan and Dan touches a nerve with fat people. Dan contributes to the self-loathing that is already there…and it hurts. And it all goes back to childhood…
I will agree that I found Lindy’s piece to be about pain, and a common struggle for women (and many men) to accept their individual beauty. I found it touching and I deeply respect Lindy for putting herself out there. And, my heart desires to reflect back affirmation, respect, and encouragement with a hearty “Go, Lindy, go!” And, to acknowledge the pain in hopes that by coming to light it can begin to heal.
I appreciated Dan’s rebuttal, but I tend to rely on my personal experience with a person, so I didn’t require it. He’s beautifully and obnoxiously human as the rest of us are, and like the rest of us I think he could choose his words more wisely in some instances… well I know I certainly should. But, I’m, also, prepared to accept him as he comes, and to decide if he is addressing and/or ranting in general towards me before becoming wounded by his words, as the price of admission. It took me a few months to comprehend that I didn’t have to own what he was saying, and if it didn’t match up I could both “listen” and dismiss it as his opinion. Hopefully, most people are a quicker study or less tenderhearted than I tend to be!
Lastly, perhaps, it is my hopeful wish, or the fact that he’s always been kind, generous, and compassionate in all of our personal interactions that is playing a part, but inside this post I ‘hear’ someone cheering a hurting co-worker/associate/friend on? And, in my glass half-full view, I hope that I’m not imagining it and that Lindy’s is hearing it.
@ Everyone,
Thank you for your kind wishes, thoughts, hugs, and prayers with regard to my health. Time will tell, but no matter what know that you are loved. And, I appreciate your kindness.
@ Matt,
I’m crossing my fingers and sending good thoughts towards you and your’s.
Ps. I hope this isn’t a double post, Slog and I are having issues.
To those who are flaming Dan over his “thin privilege” or “moral high ground of thinness”, get fucking real.
If he has any privilege or moral high ground, it’s because he *was* fat and *now* he’s thin. He knows what it takes to get to where he is today. And if you look at him, especially in a T-shirt, you’ll come to immediately recognize just how much time he spends in a gym. It’s a lot. And I’ll bet that he *has* to spend that much time in the gym just to keep the weight off. He knows it’s hard work. He knows it takes a lot of time away from his family. And he knows that it’s worth the effort, because he knows what happens when he doesn’t keep it up. For him, the struggle is constant.
I was one of those people that bought into the bullshit that some people are just at their body’s genetically predisposed weight, and there’s nothing you can do about it. After all, my whole life I’ve been *underweight* in spite of my best efforts. Then my wife decided that enough was enough and that she was going to do whatever was necessary to lose the large amount of excess weight she was carrying around, regardless of the cost to wallet and time. She went to the nearest Fitness World and got a personal trainer three months ago. She’s already lost over 40 lbs. But best of all, she can keep up with me when we go out for a walk, and that benefit was realized within two weeks.
Personal trainers don’t do anything magical. They will tell you what you should eat (google “Canada food guide”), and how you should exercise (Google “workout routines”), but most importantly, they won’t believe your bullshit: The lies you tell yourself to preserve your ego or make you think you don’t have to work harder than you already are, or eat better than you think you are.
Dan is an expert at seeing people’s bullshit for what it is. That’s why he’s so good at what he does.
My two cents:
1) Dan is right. Obesity is unhealthy. I’m not talking about healthy, beautiful curves (even if Dan finds those rolls of fat gross, I think curvy women are hot!). You know the people I’m talking about. The ones who have trouble walking more than a few blocks without getting out of breath. It’s great to love your body for how it looks but it’s also important to love your body for what it can do. Most people can lose some amount of weight (those minor few with thyroid problems excepted) but most can’t lose the amount that they want. They won’t become sticks (and thank goodness!) because people’s bodies do have different metabolisms and bone structures. It IS a lot harder for some people to lose weight. Also, fuck diet fads. Eat less and try to eat some veggies every day is my, admittedly obvious, advice. And walk more.
2) Lindy is right. Fat prejudice exists in almost everyone. Dan’s problem isn’t that he’s prejudiced. It’s that he won’t admit it and work against it. I think his is of the “ewww” variety; his views are in the right place but he has kneejerk disgust for fatness. Every fat person I’ve ever met has tried dieting and had to get to a place of loving their body (even if they did become work-out maniacs and lose a bit of weight). I myself have put on a bit (about 10 pounds in the last 10 years) and have noticed how differently I’m treated. In fact, due to a bout of food poisoning, and subsequent avoiding of a lot of food, I lost 4 pounds in one week. One of my girlfriend’s relatives crowed about how much better I looked. I appreciated the compliment but it’s crazy the difference 4 pounds can make in how you’re treated. People are judgmental about me being not skinny, even though I’m within my BMI range. So, I imagine it’s a lot worse to be fat.
To sum: I think Lindy’s right that shame doesn’t help and that it’s harder for some people to lose weight but I agree with Dan that grossly overweight people should lose some weight. (Lindy doesn’t seem grossly overweight) And I think it’s important that we change our view of food. I, personally, eat whatever I want but I eat slowly and try to stop when I’m full.
Sorry for the superlong post.
Dan, I love you more than I love any other random famous person that I do not personally know, but unfortunately, in this case, you are simply wrong. And Lindy is simply, beautifully right. When you talk about fat — fat people, fat on people, muffin tops, fat populations, fat partners of your letter writers, there is a whiff of disgust in your voice. This is not uncommon. I have heard this whiff of disgust in the voices of actual fat people, when discussing other fat people, or even themselves. Just listen to Kirstie Alley confessing her sins to Oprah; you will hear all about how they disgust themselves.
I can’t believe I have to say this to you, of all people, but how people comport themselves in their daily lives, how they represent themselves, how they treat and view their bodies, what they put in their mouths, what they enjoy or don’t enjoy without hurting others, that does not effect you, is not for you to be disgusted by. Just as being gay, who you love or don’t love, what you choose to do with your body, how you represent yourself, whether or not you are in other’s faces, is no one’s business, and no one else’s to judge. Being fat, like being gay, is not a choice, because if it was WHO WOULD CHOOSE IT? Who would choose to feel like an outsider, an offense, who would choose to limit their sexual partners, the clothing they can wear, their energy and mobility?
Like so many above have said, your response was flailing, weak, uncharacteristically incomprehensible because it was uncharacteristally WRONG. You’ve taught a lot of people a lot about people, but this? You need to relearn.
@ 386 – My post is in fact about denial. The scientific article I was discussing seems to have been made specifically in order to reassure Americans that the situation is not so bad. Opening one’s eyes and not looking for quick excuses reveals that it is.
I don’t see fat Americans because I’m “primed” to see them. That’s preposterous. Didn’t you get the line: “it’s striking to me how many people I see there (proportionally) whose belly touches their knees.”
Why do you think I used the word “striking”? And didn’t you notice the specific description “whose BELLY touches their KNEES”? You just don’t see that anywhere else, not in those proportions. Anyhone who’s travelled can attest to that (except, of course, if their only travel destination is American Samoa).
But please, do tell me what does your argument to the effect that “It’s also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel” prove, other than that the average American is fatter than people from most other nations?
My observations indeed relate to STAFF and TRAVELLERS alike in American airports. I don’t think the 20-year old, 300 pound guy who sold me a sandwich the last time (at O’Hare) was one of those Americans who travel a lot.
And your perception of “other countries” is amusingly naive. In many European countries, people get 4 to 5 weeks paid holidays, and a lot of people travel a lot. They also have much better social protections in general, so even working-class people can afford to travel. I spent 5 years in Europe, on minimum salary, and did I ever travel!
With that line of defense, though, you mostly show that you can’t even read properly (“I’ve visited around 30 countries”). I didn’t say I observed rich people who travel: I said that I’ve observed them in their own country. Where you can see people of every class, not just the rich.
That said, it’s supposed to be poor people who suffer most from this obesity epidemic in the States, for reasons discussed here and in many earlier comments threads and numerous papers and newspaper articles etc. My observations were meant to underline that it appears to be people from every race and every social class who are fat-to-obese in the States. So there’s only so much that these economical/societal explanations can actually explain.
Finally, the article you give the link to says this:
“Well, the U.S.A. doesn’t top the list, but it’s close, and it falls behind only a small islands nation and one of its own unincorporated territories.” (And if you find anything in the statistics it contains that makes you feel better, well… that’s sad.)
So thanks for proving my point about denial.
The funny thing about this is that I am a proud chubby chaser, as I’ve said earlier. I like big guys, I really do. But I like those who accept themselves and don’t try to deny their responsibilities much better than the whiny, immature, it’s-not-my-fault crowd who sound like 9-year olds who just got caught stealing cookies from the jar (“He made me do it!”). Because that’s what denial tells us about people: how immature they are.
@368 Right, that’s my point, I don’t have that experience, so it is hard for me to understand what it must be like. However, Dan and I and many others do have valid experiences of our own, in which obesity was fought and seemingly beaten. It seems pretty natural that we’d take an interest in the efforts of healthcare and governments to prevent or reduce obesity rates.
We also have the right to decide what we find unattractive… which in Dan’s case includes vaginas and rolls of fat. Despite my weight loss, I possess both and am somehow not offended by the realization that he will never sleep with me, for reasons I have no control over.
PS: Sorry about the lose/loose thing. I’m appropriately ashamed, horrified and disgusted by my grammar.
Physics! Laws of Thermodynamics! Conservation of Mass!
…Am I a certified hater of everyone with a weight issue now?
Rolls of exposed flesh ARE, objectively, unsightly. Christ on a crutch some of you people are deluded. I guess if you spout bullshit long enough you can actually start to believe it.
Dan does does not hate fat people. Some folks just need to blame someone else for their own self loathing and feelings of inadequacy.
243 and 265 for the win.
Really, really not impressed with the gutless Stranger staffers or Ms. West’s dishonest diatribe (sure doesn’t sound to me like she’s accepted her body). Nor am I impressed with the stupid people in this thread who keep reading the “fat marriage” thing literally (it was a “modest proposal”, you idiots) or Dan’s brother’s comment as saying anything other than “generalizing from your own personal experience is dangerous and can cut both ways”.
Shame, by the way, can be a very effective motivator to change – it’s how motherfuckers sometimes shape up after being dumped. And that’s one difference between gay people and fat people: gay people can’t help being gay. Like it or not, most – not all, but most – fat people can choose to be less fat, or they can genuinely choose to accept things as they are, which clearly most of the whiners here have not. Crying that it’s hard really doesn’t earn you much sympathy when you’re going on about greasy hamburgers and how delicious they are. There’s a reason why there are a lot of overweight Americans, and there’s a reason why there aren’t many overweight vegans.
Which reminds me – can’t we get the self-righteous vegans to fight the indignant fat “accepters ” and get this space back for questions about puke fetishes, adult diapers, open relationships, and coming out stories?
@ 394 – “Being fat, like being gay, is not a choice”
Please don’t insult my intelligence. There are things you can do to stop being fat. You may try as much as you want, but there’s nothing you can do to stop being gay.
@394 well said.
@342 David Schmader: I thought you guys were all about “the discussion”…just not for everyone? You had to point it out?
My problem with comparing fat phobia to homophobia:
Sure, everyone is somewhere on a sexual-orientation continuum. But homophobes largely don’t care whether you’re a Kinsey 6 or a Kinsey 2.5. Either you’re a guy who sucks dick or you’re not.
The fatness continuum, though, is relevant to everyone. For someone with low body fat, at most a couple percent of their dating pool is going to reject them because they’re not fat enough. At the other end, someone who weighs 700 pounds is going to be dismissed as an object of sexual desire by nearly everyone; few chasers won’t draw the line at someone who can’t leave the house without an exterior wall being removed. All other factors aside, every extra pound a persons carries puts him or her farther along that continuum in the direction of having fewer potential “takers”.
So, Lindy, you feel good about yourself, and that’s great; you should. But at what point does your own ewww factor kick in when it comes to others? How interested, say, would you be in Channing Tatum’s package if you had to hoist his pannicula out of the way to get a clear shot at it?
Yeah, thought so.
I don’t understand why the majority of people are supposed to feel guilty for finding a particular body type attractive. That’s evolution speaking, people. If you’re fat AND a crazy christian, fine. Maybe god wants fatties to rule. Otherwise, perhaps all your whining about being left out of the cool club is because you know you represent an unfit (both definitions) incarnation of the species. Enjoy your twinkies and die off.
@401 “Please don’t insult my intelligence. There are things you can do to stop being fat. You may try as much as you want, but there’s nothing you can do to stop being gay. “
There are things some people can do, to be less fat, but very many truly fat people can never get themselves down into a “normal” BMI, no matter how hard they try. But that is beside the point. It is not the responsibility of others to fit your idea of how they should look. It is not every woman’s most important job to be attractive. It is not every fat person’s job to make sure you are never made uncomfortable by their presence.
Of course, if you just looked at things a little differently, you might not give a crap whether the person standing in front of you at the DMV weighs 120 or 320 (or was disabled or a transperson), but I guess that is too much to ask.
Interesting that Dan mentions being a fat kid. It makes sense – bullies tend to pick on people who are like themselves. It’s more than a little unfair to throw that shit on fat kids though. It also plays into a terrible stereotype about gay people that, as a gay dude, really makes me mad: that we’re assholes to anyone who isn’t prettier than us.
I’ve been a huge fan of Dan’s for years, and love everything he’s done through It Gets Better. I mention him to people as this awesome sex columnist who is fucking hilarious but is weirdly obsessed with fat people. Not kidding.