Image via Boston Globe.
Also, members of other religions can’t go to heaven, Jews are going to come around, and homosexuality is a “dangerous sin.”
Some excerpts from sermons by Rick Warren, the homophobic, anti-choice pastor tapped by Obama to deliver his inaugural invocation.
On whether members of other religions can go to heaven:
Even those of you who have been believers for quite some time now are tempted to want to think, well, why wouldn’t God let those people in? I know you feel that way; it’s a tempting way to think in our world today. One of the reasons we’re tempted to think that way is because we’re tending to look more at this world and not enough at God and what he’s really like. If we really understood God and how holy he is and how sinful we are…. we would realize it ‘s not a matter of comparing ourselves of, who gets in and who doesn’t? It’s a matter of the fact that we were so far, we were so lost, that we just have to pour our hearts out in gratefulness that God would reach his hand down in Jesus Christ and save us. All of the other religions of the world depend on people rising above other people, being a little bit better, having a few more good works. It’s only in Christianity that you have God’s grace being expressed in Jesus Christ… I don’t think any of us will ever know what a terrible state we were in before Christ came to us… If Jesus Christ were not the only way to salvation, first of, all he would be a liar, because he said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But second, God the father would be a cruel father. Why would God the father send his son to die on a cross if there were other ways to salvation? … He sent his son to die because he’s the only way to salvation. … Human history is littered with those who have followed idols rather than the true God, so that’s what most cultures have degenerated into. In the united states we don’t have to worry about that as much.
On whether gay people can be members of Saddleback Church:
The Bible says he created man and woman to be together. God’s ideal, God’s design is for a man and woman to be together in a committed relationship, in a marriage. … Anything outside of that design is sexual immorality or sexual sin. … God says that all sexual sin is dangerous because it hurts our bodies, it hurts who we are. … Once I become a believer and become a member of Saddleback Church, our commitment, our covenant together, is to live by the truth of the Bible. We’ve decided together that we trust God’s word. … That’s one of the reasons that someone who is actively involved in sexual sin … and refuses to say that the Bible teaches that it’s a sin, is not a member of Saddleback Church. … Now, anybody can attend… but to be a member is something special. Homosexuality … is a dangerous sin. Why is it dangerous? Because God loves us and he’s designed us in a certain way out of that love to live the kind of life he has for us.
On whether women can divorce an abusive spouse:
I’d always rather choose a short-term pain and find God’s solution for long-term gain than try and find a short-term solution that’s going to involve long-term pain. … [In scripture] adultery is one [reason for divorce] and abandonment is a second. I wish there were a third in scripture. Having been involved as a pastor in situations of abuse there’s something in me that wishes there was a Bible verse that says if they abuse you in this and such kind of way then you have a right to leave them. … If you’re in this kind of situation I strongly recommend that you take advantage of our lay counseling ministers.
On whether a woman has to stay in a “miserable” marriage:
The Bible answer is yes. Does God expect me to stay in a miserable marriage, and why would he do that to me? I often say to people when they’re facing this decision, really, you’re choosing your pain in this moment because it’s going to be painful either way. If you stay in your marriage there is the opportunity for reconciliation and for the loss of pain, but there is going to be short-term pain on the way there. … There is lifelong pain in divorce. … I wish there was a way to say there is a choice here where you’re not going to have pain but there is pain in relationships. Now, God understands that… He can be with us in our pain and he can comfort us, he can strengthen us, he can give us perspective. He can also give us wisdom. Does God expect me to live with this pain? No. I think he expects us to ask for wisdom to do the things that would cause the pain to begin to be solved. … The Bible says the husband is to sacrifice for his wife and the wife is to respect her husband and if that doesn’t happen you have the right to keep pushing for that.
On whether Jews can be “saved”:
Jews and gentiles are alike. We come to faith the same way—through Jesus Christ… the Bible says there is going to be a great outpouring of faith among the Jewish people at the end of time. … The Jewish people will recognize and come to him. … They’ll see he is the Messiah. They’ll see the truth of who he really is. If you talk to someone who is Jewish you’ll find that one of the real struggles they have is with the fact that Jesus claimed to be God… To understand the Trinity, that the father, son and holy spirit are one God, is a difficult concept. But when the Jewish people realize that Jesus is god… there’s going to be this great outpouring of faith among the Jewish people. We’re all saved the same way: through Jesus.
On whether Christians who commit suicide can still go to heaven:
The Biblical answer is yes… there is no sin you can commit that will cause you to not go to heaven if you’ve truly had an experience with Jesus Christ… That’s not the end of the answer, though. … I do know that some people commit suicide out of mental illness but someone who commits suicide not out of mental illness … you’ll go to heaven but you’ll lose all kind of rewards.
No, Andrew, we’re the party of the Big House.
I think you have us confused with the Party of the Really Really Small And Old White Tent.
i just sat through church service last week. i’ts beyond me how people manage to be inspired by the platitudinous, cliched drivel that comprises the language they used. it truly baffles me. now, i can despise much of popular fiction, movies, etc.–but at least i understand the appeal there.
@ Will in Seattle,
What is your view based on exactly? If you look at the last two years–when the Demoncrats had a clear mandate to change course on national emergencies like the wars and the economy–each time they went against public opinion and their own supporters and sided with Preznit Bush and the Retardicans. They also refuse to uphold the rule of law.
Even Obama has already discarded positions taken during the primary–such as pro-public campaign finance and anti-telecom immunity–when they became inconvenient to the current right-wing orthodoxy.
This isn’t about inclusitivity, this is about an unspoken, yet clear position staked out by nasty DLC douchebags like Rahm Emmanuel that progressives, gays and liberals–even civil libertarians–are no longer welcome. And they’ve made this clear in the most unquestionable terms. Their voting records speak for themselves.
How else can you explain their behavior. And I’m sorry, but when Dick Cheney exclaimed that he’s thrilled with Obama’s cabinet, that’s a sure omen that we are f-u-c-k-e-d.
And I’d love to celebrate the demise of the Republican Party, but the fact is that we live in a two party system, and they’re gonna keep stoking fear, anger, racism, and homophobia until they assume power again.
When and what are the Demoncrats gonna change?
51
Guess just who got shoved out of the ‘Big Tent’?
Gays are welcome to donate to Obama.
But his core supporters voted you girls off the island in Prop 8 land.
Welcome to the New World Order.
We didn’t get shut out of the tent, 55. But if we keep behaving in such undisciplined, irresponsible ways we sure might get shown the door.
What “we” were asked to do is let Rick Warren, fetid asshole that he might be, in to said tent for a few minutes to say grace. Warren’s not being asked to stay (he’s not being appointed to a damned position). But I’d sure like to make sure we’re still “on the inside” after the smoke clears.
And rather picking our battles wisely and focusing our energy on holding Obama’s feet to the fire about what actually affects government AND the quality of LGBT folks’ lives (appointments, policy, legislation, the battles to come over ENDA, DADT, DOMA, etc), many folks CHOSING TO MARCH OUT of that tent and decrying anyone has the political sophistication to separate symbolic (and politically savvy) bipartisanship from actual political threat. Some are calling for noisy demonstrations DURING Warren’s silly little prayer–a Religious Right-fundraiser’s wet dream come true.
Ask folks if they remember Donnie McClurkin, and most will say, “Who’s Donnie McClurkin?” It would have been nice if by Presidents’ Day in February people would be saying “Who’s Rick Warren?” but no, these supposed enemies of his homophobia keep handing him the mike and focusing the spotlight on him. Nice work–expect a gift basket from Karl Rove or the Saddleback Church.
“If we really understood God and how holy he is and how sinful we are…. we would realize it ‘s not a matter of comparing ourselves of, who gets in and who doesn’t?”
Thank you Jesus for realizing how sinful Rick is. So, he doesn’t get in then, right?
Andy,
you are brave
and opptomistic!
I salute you- my friend.
You are also, alas;
naive
and
clueless.
You have been booted from the tent.
What did Obama promise Gays during the campaign?
What is his position on Gay Marriage?
You were promised nothing and will get LESS.
Obama had countless possibilities for the invocation;
it could have been nuanced a dozen ways.
Warren was a deliberate calculated choice.
Warren sends a clear message:
to black voters,
to the right,
to Gays.
Everyone else got their message
loud and clear.
Did you?
My dear Andy,
my poor, dear, naive, believing Andy.
You are breaking my heart!
Someone offers gay folks way WAY more than ANYONE has ever offered us before on a federal level, and everyone gets pissy because he invited someone they didn’t like to a cocktail party?
Jesus.
So those of you who are attending the Inauguration and disapprove of Rick Warren’s participation in it:
When Warren delivers his invocation (probably taking no more than two minutes), turn about and face the phallic Washington Monument for the time it takes him to mouth heart-warming, fallacious platitudes ’bout how God’s in his heav’n, all’s right with the world and all His children got Jeebus….
If this happens, I hope The Stranger gets credit for fomenting this civil albeit well-considered discourtesy…
In the section about divorce and abuse Mr. Warren apparently doesn’t consider Isiah 50:1 and Jeremiah 3:8. In both God gives Israel her certificate of divorce. In all my years of working in DV, it seems people get hung up on Malachi 2:16, because God says he hates divorce. Hateing divorce doesn’t mean God forbids it, and it doesn’t mean God hates people who get divorced. If you’re in an abusive relationship, get help and get out. You can’t save a marriage when one partner refuses to see he/she has a problem.
The unforgivable sin is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, Mark 3:29, and Luke 12:10.
People should read the Bible themselves. History shows the missuse of scripture as a reason to justify cruelty and mistreatment. You have to keep scripture in context or it looses its purpose. Personaly, I think it is being missused in regard to God’s feelings about our sexuality. I think it is fearfull humans who believe homosexuality to be a sin, because they allow others to fill their minds with agenda selected scripture. I think God gives us our sexuality, and he is pleased with it. Thus, I think Warren is wrong, homosexuality is not a sin. He just wants to believe it is, because to consider it isn’t would be a slap to his pride. Plus, going against the grain would have negative ramifications to his aspirations.
Rick Warren is SO ENLIGHTENING.
I had NO IDEA that you could kill yourself and STILL GO TO HEAVEN, and long as you were saved by Jeez beforehand.
Do you know what this means?
This means that Rick Warren can KILL HIMSELF BEFORE INAUGURATION DAY with no negative consequences for his soul!
Why does he go on? I’ve heard how he struggles with Internet pornography.
But, latest word was that he had CONQUERED his disgusting habit through the aid of, not Jesus, but his wife and her initiative in putting PORN BLOCKERS on their computer.
(Even though that set him right with Christ, for now at least, he should still give her a few floggings with the rod just to teach her that the HUSBAND IS BOSS!)
Anyway, now that he is off the electro-smut due to his wife’s un-ladylike decisivenesss, he should TOTALLY KILL HIMSELF NOW before he relapses into pornographic sin again…he is the husband, afterall. If he tells his wife to take the smut blockers off, she has to take them off or get a lashing!
Yawp @27,
Sorry I didn’t get to reply to this yesterday, busy afternoon…
Anyhoo, I have had this discussion out with my dad and multiple other pastors. We start in a round about way, of course, much like the poster I replied to did. “Is there any sin that will keep a Christian out of Heaven?”
Their answer, almost every single time, is “No, except to renounce God, the Spirit, Jesus, and his salvation.” At which point, I follow it up with questions about suicide, murder, etc. All met with “No, if that person had a sincere connection with Christ, they will be in Heaven.” That leads to questions about if a person continually sins, say they’re a habitual liar, but had a sincere conversion years ago… despite their continued sinning, will they be in Heaven? The answer is always “yes, if they really did convert they will be in Heaven.”
That’s when I hit them with the gay Christian. Most of the pastors I’ve spoken to immediately say that Homosexuality is a sin and that lifestyle will only lead a person to hell. I ask what if that person had a sincere connection with Christ? At this point, most of the pastors I’ve spoken with have said they doubt someone living in a continual sexual sin could have had a sincere connection… I press and say hypothetically, if they did, would they be in Heaven when they died?
After laying all that groundwork with the rest of the discussion, they can’t say “no, they’ll be in hell” so they again say they don’t think that it would ever happen, but if a gay person did sincerely convert they would be in Heaven after they died, whether or not they continued to practice homosexuality.
At that point, they usually launch into a bit about how true conversion, true connections with Christ, always yield a desire to be a better person, to stop sinning and to reach out to God… so, a gay person who had a true conversion wouldn’t want to keep being gay. Here, the pastors and I begin debating whether or not homosexuality is a sin, if it is a sin how bad a sin it is, and whether or not Christians have interpreted those scriptures correctly.
So, in short, what I said wasn’t bullshite. It was a short answer to the question. Yes, evangelicals say that sincere gay christians will be in heaven. They doubt such gay christians exist, but if they do, they’ll be there, per every evangelical pastor I’ve ever sat down with.
Rick Warren is a heretic. Look at that first sermon! Christianity has long accepted that sincere people of different religions can go to heaven, so long as they are sincere and do not reject spiritual truth when they receive it. Even C.S. Lewis believed that!! This is a long-standing theological stand called “soteriological inclusivism.” St. Paul explicitly approves of this, and Rick Warren does not? Heretic.
You know Yawp, after re-reading my first post, I didn’t say enough and what I wrote wasn’t what I meant. Sorry for that.
I don’t much care for Warren’s mistaken theology. It’s just hard for me, and possibly others in my age group, <a href="http://www.FairAndUNbalanced.com?http://www.testimoanials.com/blog/blog1.…“>to become indignant about him. It’s not so much a boast as a confession. I wonder how many share my attitude.
Apparently, you’re supposed to stay in an abusive marriage even if your husband is beating your kids. Telling women to stick it out and try to fix things is one thing (even though I personally think that after a certain point it’s a load of crap–and what about the husband’s responsibility, btw?) But what if the abusive behavior is hurting children? Even if the children are not directly physically harmed, they are learning dangerous behavior patterns, both to perpetrate and endure. And what the fuck is with short term pain in a marriage but long term pain in divorce? Yes, divorce sucks and is messy and painful, but at least you have the chance to move on and salvage your life and heal. An abusive marriage you can’t escape has no end in sight.
And fewer rewards for people who kill themselves? That’s antithetical to the entire notion of grace.
@63 aka Pastor’s Son,
Thanks so much for your comment. I love your heart for questioning.
I wonder where grace is in their discussions, sincerely wanting to be better doesn’t mean we live a sinless life. We are forever struggling in sanctification. At least thats what the Bible says in 1 John 1:8, not to mention Romans chapters 7 and 8, and of course Matthew chapter 5. We don’t have to be perfect, because God is perfect, God values the sincerity of our heart towards him (Micah 6:8, Matthew 19: 16-19, Mark 12:29-31, Luke 10:27, and John 13:34).
I think the real issue is the Christian community (as a whole) can not fathom that sexual orientation is not a preference choice. Even when modern medical science supports the truth that orientation is involuntary. Our sexual orientation is what we are given, a long with our heigth and eye color. We have no control, can any of us actually say we remember making the choice? I doubt it, that’s why ex-gay therapy, and prayer interventions do not work. We can’t fight who God made us to be. And it goes against his very nature to hate what he forms (Psalm 139, John 3:16-21).
Bless you.
68
kim,
don’t be a pig;
leave some of the koolaid for everyone else.
@69
Nope, I can’t see your eyes rolling, but I’ll be sure to save you some koolaid. In fact you can have my share, I can’t stand the crap.
@69 – dude, get off it. Kim is on your side. It makes no sense to antagonize Christians who are actually defending you.
Calling this guy a “pastor” is like calling someone with a first aid certificate a “brain surgeon”. He is the theological rendition of the old adage, “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.” The fact that Mr Obama is pandering to such ignorance leaves me breathless and somewhat anxious over the next four years in Washington.
@ 71, aka DavidG,
Thank you. I am on his side.
-kim
@69
I intended my message 68 for Pastor’s Kid at 63. We both seem driven to engage evangelical Christians on their theology. Sorry if it was to sickly sweet, or if you thought I was kissing his ass. It wasn’t my intention. It’s a biblical thing to use scripture when engaging with Christians.
-kim
PS I don’t think I fully understand hogging all the koolaid. Is that some reference to Jim Jones?
Thanks Kim,
I’ve read most of those scriptures, but not looked at them in this light. There’s my homework for tonight then. 🙂
After years of debating back and forth with my parents, I got them to admit that if a sincere gay christian wanted to attend their church with his partner, they would let them attend and be members. Mom and Dad’s only caveat was that if the gay couple “became a stumbling block” for someone else in the church, the gay couple would be asked to leave.
Not fair, no, but it’s miles ahead of where many other evangelicals are at.
74
yes, good old Jim
“Even when modern medical science supports the truth that orientation is involuntary. Our sexual orientation is what we are given, a long with our heigth and eye color. We have no control, can any of us actually say we remember making the choice? I doubt it, that’s why ex-gay therapy, and prayer interventions do not work. We can’t fight who God made us to be.”
There is so much hooey packed in here one doesn’t know where to begin:
“modern medical science” supports nothing of the kind- the best you will find are tainted studies by biased ‘researchers’ out to support their agenda.
God makes people Gay? please, don’t even go there.
ex-gay therapy etc- Is Anne Heche gay? Did God forget to tell her what she was? Could God not make up his mind when he made people ‘bi’? What a joker he must be!
In fact people choose to or not to engage in homosexual behavior at will.
God gives us free agency to choose what we will do and will be.
Take responsibility for the life he gives you.
You have drunk deeply from the orthodox homosexual koolaid. ‘Don’t think or question for yourself– after all- “God made me this way!”‘
Throw in a few mangled scriptural references and you’ve invented your own Gay Religion.
Make a calf of gold and bow to it? Never!
Make a religion of the philosophy of homosexual apologist, throw in a few scriptures and worship it?
Sure!
Either way you’re worshipping something you made.
“You have drunk deeply from the orthodox homosexual koolaid.”
Sounds delicious! Is the koolaid itself the flavor of the orthodox homosexuals, or is it regular, say, grape koolaid that is served by the homosexuals?
These are important questions.
Well Please,
Lets say we agree to disagree. You’re welcome to your opinion, it’s a free country.
In the future you may not want to make presumptions about a person, without knowing them.
Best wishes.
Everyone should suffer. Women should stay with their physically abusive husbands. Gay people should force themselves to either marry someone of the opposite sex, and live a life of passionless, celibate, loneliness. People of any other religion should switch to the “one true religion”, just on the basis of some unproven mystical beliefs that there is a reward in the end.
76: Real orthodox gay people don’t drink Kool-Aid. All natural fresh juice? Sure. Single malt scotch older than half the people in the room? Oh yes. But Kool-Aid? Never!
And Anne Heche is what is called bisexual. That is, she appears to be attracted to both men and women. I know that’s a bit advanced for you to grasp, but please at least pretend to be a resident of the 21st century.
BTB, I generally suspect the people who so loudly proclaim homosexuality to be a ‘choice’ of being closeted bisexual folk. Because that really is the only charitable interpretation of their raving.
So “bi” is another term for
‘doing whatever you choose to do’?
I see.
It never ceases to amaze me that people who can hold sensible conversations about virtually anything still believe this rubbish without any foundation. From the Pope right down. Not one of them has the nerve to stand back for a moment and say hold on – this is a load of rubbish. I have made a mistake. Can you imagine the Pope deciding he lost his faith – wouldn’t that be just great.
So if a woman commits adultry does the husband have the right stone her to death?
There is always a way
If he is abusing her she can hire a hooker to cheat with him. Think about it… if a man is beating his wife, what are the odds he is cheating as well?
I’ve never read a bigger colllection of hackneyed, media-soaked, thoughtless, intolerant liberal soundbites in my life. People who understand and agree that homosexuality is condemned as a sin (by all 3 Abrahamic faiths by the way – not just biblical christians) are homophobes?! Give me a break! That line is not only clinically baseless and irrational, but SO adolescent, so pathetic, so stupidly cliche. Do you REALLY believe that someone who rejects the validity of a particular position or viewpoint does so from unconscious fear? (If so, this means you’re grasp of psychology is informed primarily by hollywood and you have never actually tried thinking about this) Do you really believe just because the significant majority of Americans believe homosexuality is morally unacceptable that means that most of those people hate homosexuals? (Saying ‘yes’ here means you’re simply an idiot) And if so, does that mean all you ridiculously intolerant and unbelievably ignorant Christian bashers are Christophobes?
And by the way, why is it OK to be intolerant of Christian values but not of homosexual values? Why must Christians give up their truth just because 5-7% of the population want to shout them down? (yes – that’s the correct number -affirmed by virtualy every secular study but Kinsey’s who used prisoners to get to his 10% number)
If you’re going to take time to post here, try coming up with a couple of thoughts that aren’t just a display of your ignorance or a regurgitation of baseless comments and tired old slogans you heard someone else say.
The church and the gay (LGBT) community have always had two DIFFERENT interpretations of the word “homosexual”. The LGBT community would interpret a homosexual to be anyone who has erotic EMOTIONS towards the same sex. The church interprets homosexuality (and sin) as homosexual ACTIONS towards the same sex. There is a difference between emotions and actions. Thus, the “choice” described by the church, and the doctrine that one should not act on one’s emotions, no matter the strength of them. Far easier said than done, of course. Then we have the religious ultra conservatives that want to make church doctrine into law, trampling on freedom of religion since everybody wants their own religion made law, and everybody else’s ignored. Fornication is not generally against the law, so neither should homosexuality be against the law. However, both fornication and homosexuality are currently, and understandably condemned by the church, since both are condemned in the Bible. However, I think the church should have more compassion for those who are already in homosexual relationships who want to reconcile those relationships by getting “married”. A relationship is not an easy thing to just throw aside. Finally, the church needs to have more compassion and forgiveness for divorcees – if a man is hitting a woman, he isn’t going to stop until she ends up in the hospital or worse. Should a couple be forced to stay married until she dies from the abuse? I say NO. Abuse is a form of abandonment.
I’m sorry, is anybody suprised or angered by this man’s comments? He is a Christian, and so this is really what you should expect. As far as I can see he isn’t saying that’s against Scripture, and all he’s saying is backed up by it. People need to choose whether they’re going to follow a religion and all the crazy stupid rubbish that goes with it, or accept that there is no God. I like that there are people like this. It exposes the hypocrisy and insanity that is religion.
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