Image via Boston Globe.
Also, members of other religions can’t go to heaven, Jews are going to come around, and homosexuality is a “dangerous sin.”
Some excerpts from sermons by Rick Warren, the homophobic, anti-choice pastor tapped by Obama to deliver his inaugural invocation.
On whether members of other religions can go to heaven:
Even those of you who have been believers for quite some time now are tempted to want to think, well, why wouldn’t God let those people in? I know you feel that way; it’s a tempting way to think in our world today. One of the reasons we’re tempted to think that way is because we’re tending to look more at this world and not enough at God and what he’s really like. If we really understood God and how holy he is and how sinful we are…. we would realize it ‘s not a matter of comparing ourselves of, who gets in and who doesn’t? It’s a matter of the fact that we were so far, we were so lost, that we just have to pour our hearts out in gratefulness that God would reach his hand down in Jesus Christ and save us. All of the other religions of the world depend on people rising above other people, being a little bit better, having a few more good works. It’s only in Christianity that you have God’s grace being expressed in Jesus Christ… I don’t think any of us will ever know what a terrible state we were in before Christ came to us… If Jesus Christ were not the only way to salvation, first of, all he would be a liar, because he said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But second, God the father would be a cruel father. Why would God the father send his son to die on a cross if there were other ways to salvation? … He sent his son to die because he’s the only way to salvation. … Human history is littered with those who have followed idols rather than the true God, so that’s what most cultures have degenerated into. In the united states we don’t have to worry about that as much.
On whether gay people can be members of Saddleback Church:
The Bible says he created man and woman to be together. God’s ideal, God’s design is for a man and woman to be together in a committed relationship, in a marriage. … Anything outside of that design is sexual immorality or sexual sin. … God says that all sexual sin is dangerous because it hurts our bodies, it hurts who we are. … Once I become a believer and become a member of Saddleback Church, our commitment, our covenant together, is to live by the truth of the Bible. We’ve decided together that we trust God’s word. … That’s one of the reasons that someone who is actively involved in sexual sin … and refuses to say that the Bible teaches that it’s a sin, is not a member of Saddleback Church. … Now, anybody can attend… but to be a member is something special. Homosexuality … is a dangerous sin. Why is it dangerous? Because God loves us and he’s designed us in a certain way out of that love to live the kind of life he has for us.
On whether women can divorce an abusive spouse:
I’d always rather choose a short-term pain and find God’s solution for long-term gain than try and find a short-term solution that’s going to involve long-term pain. … [In scripture] adultery is one [reason for divorce] and abandonment is a second. I wish there were a third in scripture. Having been involved as a pastor in situations of abuse there’s something in me that wishes there was a Bible verse that says if they abuse you in this and such kind of way then you have a right to leave them. … If you’re in this kind of situation I strongly recommend that you take advantage of our lay counseling ministers.
On whether a woman has to stay in a “miserable” marriage:
The Bible answer is yes. Does God expect me to stay in a miserable marriage, and why would he do that to me? I often say to people when they’re facing this decision, really, you’re choosing your pain in this moment because it’s going to be painful either way. If you stay in your marriage there is the opportunity for reconciliation and for the loss of pain, but there is going to be short-term pain on the way there. … There is lifelong pain in divorce. … I wish there was a way to say there is a choice here where you’re not going to have pain but there is pain in relationships. Now, God understands that… He can be with us in our pain and he can comfort us, he can strengthen us, he can give us perspective. He can also give us wisdom. Does God expect me to live with this pain? No. I think he expects us to ask for wisdom to do the things that would cause the pain to begin to be solved. … The Bible says the husband is to sacrifice for his wife and the wife is to respect her husband and if that doesn’t happen you have the right to keep pushing for that.
On whether Jews can be “saved”:
Jews and gentiles are alike. We come to faith the same way—through Jesus Christ… the Bible says there is going to be a great outpouring of faith among the Jewish people at the end of time. … The Jewish people will recognize and come to him. … They’ll see he is the Messiah. They’ll see the truth of who he really is. If you talk to someone who is Jewish you’ll find that one of the real struggles they have is with the fact that Jesus claimed to be God… To understand the Trinity, that the father, son and holy spirit are one God, is a difficult concept. But when the Jewish people realize that Jesus is god… there’s going to be this great outpouring of faith among the Jewish people. We’re all saved the same way: through Jesus.
On whether Christians who commit suicide can still go to heaven:
The Biblical answer is yes… there is no sin you can commit that will cause you to not go to heaven if you’ve truly had an experience with Jesus Christ… That’s not the end of the answer, though. … I do know that some people commit suicide out of mental illness but someone who commits suicide not out of mental illness … you’ll go to heaven but you’ll lose all kind of rewards.
What, he says I’ll lose my air miles when I go to Heaven?
But … I was going to use those!
But Jerimiah Wright would have been a great choice right Erica?
I thought you only posted about how cars were destroying everything you hold dear.
What’s Warren’s position on salting the roads?
What? A woman can divorce her husband if he cheats on her, but not if he is physically abusive? How does that even remotely make any sense?
And, “short-term pain’? As if a man beating his wife is something to endure temporarily because certainly he will one day stop hitting me? That’s a pretty fucking dangerous and irresponsible thing to advocate.
For 2009, Here’s the BIG inside scoop. No RIck Warren or Inauguration: Please dont ignore this. Tonight,1/209 at 9 pm Eastern Time, Ed Hale of Plains Radio will reveil online a CERTIFIED copy of Obamas father’s divorce decree in Hawaii.
It says son Barack Jr. was born in KENYA. This is real and not a hoax. It proves Obama Jr. WASNT born in the USA, but in Kenya.
http://www.plainsradio.com/chat1.html
Gary
That kind of thinking is a excellent example of circular logic. “Why would God send Jesus to die if there were some other way of salvation?” Um, maybe God didn’t? Maybe the Romans killed Jesus because he really pissed off the Roman and Jewish leaders.
@4,
I think the idea is that you’re supposed to endure pain in this life (in the “short term”), so you’ll be saved in the next.
I don’t get why it’s such a revelation that Warren believes that unbelievers will go to hell. Hello? That’s what most of those psychos believe.
Uhhh, so do I have to like, go all the way with him? Is second base ok?
Also, FU Rick Warren. Please go and die in a fire. It’s only short term pain, and really purification by fire is the only way you’ll get all your “rewards”.
dick.
Erica, you are quite obsessed with this big ol’ hunk of God-fearing fire-and-brimstone-spewing man….
watch yourself, honey.
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We’d rather not moderate your comments, but off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks may be removed, and repeat offenders may be banned from commenting. We never censor comments based on ideology. Thanks to all who add to the conversation on Slog.
Gary – Is that kind of like the secret Michelle Obama tape that African Press International has been claiming they’re going to release “any day now” for months and months?
@7. That’s possible… I read it in context with the next bit about miserable marriages, when he talks about the short-term pain (miserable marriage) vs. the long-term pain (divorce) [a side note here, I actually don’t this this is a terrible viewpoint – I don’t agree with the conclusion (don’t get divorced), but the view that there is also pain with divorce is not entirely illogical] .
But, of course, the crazier view that “you must endure this abuse to get into heaven” is also a possibility coming from the religious nutjobs.
Seriously. Erica, thanks for reporting on this, but none of this should come as a surprise. Warren is a very typical Evangelical, and understanding them a little better – getting past the initial shock at how atrocious their actual beliefs really are, and maybe starting to understand their roots in the primal immature subconscious of a neglected heartland psyche – might help us better expose their weaknesses and undermine their strategies of division; might help us, in fact, divide them against one another, so they’ll get off our back for a change. Might be a good use of Obama’s time, even.
every time i see one of these posts i am a little surprised. at two things:
1. that you all didn’t know these are the things that average evangelicals “believe”.
(they don’t necessarily adhere to these beliefs however.)
2. that you seem to have no tolerance for such a great majority.
(i’m not making that tired, “tolerate the intolerant” argument. what i’m getting at here is that there isn’t an understanding of the values that are probably the majority in this country. we have to understand if we are to correct the faults, and live with the differences. it’s not odd to have someone who believes these things find a position of power because it’s quite likely that the majority of people believe these things.)
If I have an “experience” with Jesus, does that make me gay and an adulterer?
Well, there goes tonight’s smack down.
If it weren’t for this fabulous, new toaster, I’d kill myself.
Wait a minute…
there is no sin you can commit that will cause you to not go to heaven if you’ve truly had an experience with Jesus Christ…
Okay…so homosexuality is a Dangerous Sin. But gay Christians can still go to heaven? Or is homosexuality more dangerous then suicide…?
@16 – I buy that argument for things like “people of other religions cannot go to heaven”, which is a pretty straightforward and very common belief. But, even I, who is pretty fascinated by all things religious, am shocked sometimes when I hear interpretations like “women who are abused cannot get divorced”.
Not all Christians, or even all Evangelicals, would interpret and apply the Bible in that way.
As a west coast Protestant, I find this theology virtually unrecognizable.
We never censor comments based on ideology.
@18 evangelicals, by and large, believe that gay christians can and will go to heaven… they’ll just feel horrendously for eternity because of their sinful lifestyle on Earth.
The next logical question, then, is why try to force people to change here on Earth? The usual answer is because Christ said “go and sin no more” not “go and keep on doing what you’re doing.”
22 years and counting of being a Preacher’s Son comes in handy on occasion… though, it doesn’t so much when sucking cock. *shrug*
In the two quotations that are called out as applying only to women, there’s nothing specific to women that warrants calling them out as such.
(Certainly Rick Warren doesn’t deserve defending, but careful reading and argumentation do.)
julie @19. true, not all would apply it that way.
but i was taught that growing up. seriously. i went to the largest church in my town (in a seattle suburb, no less). not that i want to dwell on that too much, but you were taught to get out of the house, but not divorce. the church would help support people in this situation, but not advocate for divorce unless certain criteria was met.
please note, i’m not saying i agree with this them! just reporting on the experience.
it’s not as bad as it sounds — you can leave them, not live with them, not talk to them, or even get a restraining order, you just cannot initiate the divorce. that’s bad, but not as bad as assuming the policy means that you must still live with them as they are beating you. it’s also bad, because in some cases it doesn’t support the victim enough, and it downplays the seriousness of the offense. i’ve never hit a significant other, nor would i tolerate being hit. it also applies to men and women, for whatever that is worth.
but in many other cases, people would get divorced for all sorts of reasons. so, for the one woman i knew who hadn’t spoken to her “husband” in over a year, we also had a worship pastor’s wife run away with a youth pastor, and a divorce because they didn’t get along, and another divorce because the man threatened to hit his wife.
Newsflash: Rick Warren is a bad man with stupid, mean ideas. (There just might be a few folks who don’t know that yet whom you have now informed.)
Newsflash: the Fundamentalist Xtian Church is racist, sexist, homophobic, and intolerant. (Duh.)
Now should we continue to flash this news as loudly and brightly as possible as often as possible, giving this man a spotlight he doesn’t deserve?
By all means, let’s continue our political O.C.D. about this asshole, and watch the Saddleback coffers swell with fundraising profits and Rick Warren’s stature to National Religious Conservative Leader continue to rise…
Heaven, rewards???? I am so tired of people in power believing in fantasy.
When your dead you are dead. There is no fun better life in heaven. That is just shitting on the reality of life here on Earth, the only one life you will ever get and should be making the best of.
There is no heaven where some people have more “rewards” than others because they are better. There are no virgins for men, no afterlife with everything you ever wanted that you never got while you were alive. You do not get to see your loved ones again or have it perfect where they are not abusive but wonderful like in a movie.
So make it worthwhile now while you are live and stop thinking you are going to some place better when you die.
Dead is dead.
Preacher’s Boy @22…
You really should get back to church more often because your memory of evangelical doctrine has seriously failed you.
Dude, call your dad, or just give a shout out to Big Papa. You’ve forgotten whole chapters and verses of the indoctrination.
Evangelicals with few and rare exceptions believe that homosexuality is an abomination before Almighty God (queue the thunder) and that nothing short of full repentance, which includes conversion to heterosexuality, will save the Mo’s from eternal damnation.
…it takes a PK to know another PK’s bullshite.
Remember, Jesus died for your Personal Greed!
…
oh, wait, didn’t he?
Here’s Rick Warren on how he will affect policy in the Obama administration:
i know this keeps coming up … but how do you want obama to reach out to the right wing?
these are the beliefs of the right wing. they are wrong — but they vary. some are not as bad as you think, others are as bad, or are worse. warren is one person of many playing a completely ceremonial role. but he thinks other religions are wrong! uh, that’s a surprise? who’s the right wing preacher you are going to find who doesn’t believe that?
B @26…
Prove it.
In all honesty we do not know.
In the amazing dearth of human knowledge a profession of ignorance more often serves as the only universal truth, than not.
There was an article in the NYT about a recent pool in which a majority of American Christians (not just Americans) believe you get to heaven based on good works not religion and this includes non-believers.
Ignorance as universal truth? Will you survive a fall from the Aurora Bridge? PROVE IT!
I had no idea there was a Heaven and a Heaven Lite. I thought it was kind Salvation or Damnation since the Pope shut down Limbo and Purgatory.
Religion is dangerous. Where else can you spew this type non-sense and be taken serious?
@33…
You first, sweetie, as a testament of your faith in your chosen dogma, but remember that if you fail, Pastor Ricky says that you’re probably going to lose a few door prizes at the pearly gates.
For your enlightenment…a physics lesson about how little we know even about what we know…
Alcides Moreno was hurtling downward at a speed up to 124 mph, clinging to a 1,250-pound scaffold that acted like a surfboard in the sky.
Those grappling with why he miraculously survived his plunge from the roof of a 47-story high-rise say the aluminum platform added air resistance that slowed his descent – and blunted the tremendous force of hitting the concrete pavement in an alley below.
Read on…
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12162007/new…
@35…
Politics.
Can you tell the average politician or pastor apart? I guess it depends on how far they’re standing from the spotlight.
Whatever.
In 1858, Abraham Lincoln wrote, “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people…”
Did he mean it, or was he trying to win an election and prevent civil war by espousing a centrist view that he did not — later evidence would suggest — actually hold? If the Civil War had not occurred, and Lincoln had not been freed to express his more radical opinions in opposition to treasonous rebels, would we ever know for sure whether his statements about Black people were real, or just political rhetoric?
The pro-labor, pro-socialized medicine, pro-domestic spending rural voters that used to be the base of the Democratic Party are also, by and large, evangelical Christians.
Obama may still turn out to be a terrible president, but reaching out to those evangelical Christians though a very public gesture that has no meaningful policy implications — and therefore costs him nothing, in terms of legislative horse-trading — is a smart move. Liberals who are too near-sighted to appreciate the political wisdom of Obama’s alliances will either succeed in returning the Democratic Party to political irrelevance, or they’ll be left behind when the Dems move into a position of real power over the next 10 years.
Ah well. Nothing to do with me, I suppose.
@30 – he already did reach out – he has two Republicans in the cabinet.
Your time is done – go forth and wander in the wilderness for the next forty years and we’ll call you then.
Religion is poison. My respect for Obama is down a notch due to his choice to continually stand by this guy, but I hold out hope that come Jan 21st, he severs and never speaks of Warren again, for good or ill.
Warren sucks but he has no power. Has a Stranger writer ever posted anything about our Republican Sec. of Defense (meet the old boss…) or our Republican Sec. of Transportation (zero transportation experience, little commitment to mass transit)?
What is interesting to me about reading Warren’s comments is that there is so much filler. I can picture the congregation members sitting there thinking that all he’s talking about is love and forgiveness, but only when we are able to slow him down and parse the words does it become clear.
That’s scary.
what? my time is done? what are you talking about? we’ve met, will, do you remember? i think you have me confused with someone else.
if he made two appointments, get mad at those. what you are suggesting @39 is silly… to be upset by a ceremonial position and not actual appointments. this is a meaningful figure to evangelicals playing (to atheists) a largely meaningless role. that cannot be said about the other appointments.
i’m more with judah @38.
I understand that Warren will have no impact on policy, that Obama is just reaching out to the religious right, that it’s just a symbolic hand across the aisle… but, I still was disappointed by the choice.
I think there are any number of Christian pastors that he could have chosen that would have symbolized something different — social justice in the Sojourners-type model, for example.
@44 – You have your social-justice pastor, in the benediction: Rev. Joe Lowery is a black civil rights legend. You have nothing to fear or despair from Rev. Warren. In fact, I think picking him is exactly the right choice, even though I disagree with him on more than I don’t.
Julie,
I know what you mean. Still, if Obama is reaching out to people who think differently than me, he’s going to have to choose someone I don’t agree with. That’s just the way it goes.
Perhaps there was a better choice that would still meet all the qualifications. I just have a hard time seeing who that would be, and do not know if there is a figurehead of the Sojourners who would qualify.
maybe that Jim Wallis would be a possible choice — don’t know enough about him. warren i’ve heard of. too bad. i read his wiki and he seems better, but i don’t know. i do see that Wallis’ wife is a rev, though, which might be an issue with the fundies.
still, perhaps a better compromise. i just though obama was throwing them a bone, so to speak…
Religion is such a waste of time and a waste of one’s life. Anything is more enjoyable than praying all day and trying to decipher some 2000 year old book.
He’s an idiot. And even if I believed in his magic Jesus and his imaginary heaven, which by the way, I did when I was a naive child, I would not want to go there if assholes like him would be there. And don’t forget, this clown says these things to GET PEOPLE’S MONEY! Now that’s something I have no doubt he worships!
The key issue here is that the Demoncratic leadership—Harry, Nancy and now Obama et al—have officially dumped progressives, gays and liberals from the party.
The whole Rick Warren flap is really a proxy battle over our total elimination from the party.
From his cabinet appointments on down to the issues (failed wars, FISA/domestic spying/elimination of civil liberties, healthcare reform, failed education system, failed economy, the environment, and on and on) Obama is showing that he’s going to continue business as usual by reaching out to a right-wing “center” that’s the unspoken future of the Demoncratic Party. This is why Demoncrats and their various enablers cheer when they infuriate their so-called base in ways Republicans would never dream of.
Every Bush disaster of the last two years has been aided and abetted by the Demoncrats, whose goals and methods are basically the same and certainly in agreement.